Frickin CO2 is empty again.

[Bill Stock]

I just had my 20# CO2 cylinder filled up two weeks ago and the damn thing is
empty again!

I used the plastic washer (1) AND Teflon tape to be on the safe side. I put
the regulator on REAL tight, dumped the whole thing in the bathtub and
filled the tub with water to just above the fill pipe. I opened the valve
all the way and rolled the tank around a bit, being careful to keep the
gauges and solenoid out of the water. No sign of leaks.

So WTF is going on? Leaky solenoid, leaky gauge, sudden depressurization,
VERY leaky hose? Any help appreciated.

[George Pontis]

In article >, says...
> I just had my 20# CO2 cylinder filled up two weeks ago and the damn thing is
> empty again!
>
> I used the plastic washer (1) AND Teflon tape to be on the safe side. I put
> the regulator on REAL tight, dumped the whole thing in the bathtub and
> filled the tub with water to just above the fill pipe. I opened the valve
> all the way and rolled the tank around a bit, being careful to keep the
> gauges and solenoid out of the water. No sign of leaks.
>
> So WTF is going on? Leaky solenoid, leaky gauge, sudden depressurization,
> VERY leaky hose? Any help appreciated.

Bill - that is a lot of CO2 gas to lose in two weeks. It is at a level where you
might hear a hissing sound of gas escaping somewhere. In order to make the most of
your latest 20# batch, I suggest a simple test of flow rate. Open the cylinder
valve so the primary gauge comes up to full pressure of 800psi or so. Then close
it and see how long it takes for the pressure to drop to 0. You can start with the
solenoid unplugged (closed) to test only the cylinder fitting, regulator, and
solenoid. Bubble fluid for leak detection would also work well at the cylinder
connection and threaded pipe joints.

For calibration, I just tried this experiment on an aquarium that has a CO2 flow
rate of 2-3 bubbles per second. I left the CO2 flowing normally into the aquarium
with the cylinder valve closed. Over several minutes there was no observable
change in the primary pressure. I think you would see a big drop in one minute
with the leakage that you are experiencing.

As for hose, I think any common airline tubing that is in good condition is
adequate. I happen to have a bunch of the very flexible and inexpensive blue
silicone tubing and have used that with complete satisfaction.

If no leaks and you think the tank could have vented when everyone was away, you
can try a couple of turns of masking tape around the vent holes of the pressure
relief. Rest assured that the tape will not interfere with the gas escaping in
case of an overpressure situation. More likely you will not be able to find the
remains of the tape. Venting is only likely if the tank was subjected to high
temperature, like being in a car in the sun with the windows closed. Maybe being
exposed to the heater vent for many hours, that kind of thing.

George

[John H.]

"Bill Stock" > wrote in message
...
>I just had my 20# CO2 cylinder filled up two weeks ago and the damn thing
>is empty again!
>
> I used the plastic washer (1) AND Teflon tape to be on the safe side. I
> put the regulator on REAL tight, dumped the whole thing in the bathtub and
> filled the tub with water to just above the fill pipe. I opened the valve
> all the way and rolled the tank around a bit, being careful to keep the
> gauges and solenoid out of the water. No sign of leaks.
>
> So WTF is going on? Leaky solenoid, leaky gauge, sudden depressurization,
> VERY leaky hose? Any help appreciated.

Bill,
All I can say is I had the same problem. I had to refill my 5# tank about 6
weeks ago. I used 1 washer even though the instructions on my regulator says
to use "2" washers. (btw I emaild the company as to why they say to use 2
washers, they never got back to me). Didnt even use any teflon tape this
time. For the first several days I monitored the gauges, and put small
pieces of masking tape on the guage that gives you the pressure in the tank.
If I noticed it was going down, I would unscrew the regulator and reconnect
it, if the washer was thrashed I would use a new one. I just kept doing that
until I knew it wasnt leaking. Its been running for 6weeks now and the guage
is just slightly under the 5 lbs mark which I'm attributing to just regular
use.
Not much help but I just had to monkey around with mine until it stopped
leaking, I do remember that the last time I connected the regulator I didnt
tighten it as much as I had the previous times, perahp too much tightening
was causing my problem.

[Bill Stock]

"George Pontis" > wrote in message
t...
> In article >, says...
>> I just had my 20# CO2 cylinder filled up two weeks ago and the damn thing
>> is
>> empty again!
>>
>> I used the plastic washer (1) AND Teflon tape to be on the safe side. I
>> put
>> the regulator on REAL tight, dumped the whole thing in the bathtub and
>> filled the tub with water to just above the fill pipe. I opened the valve
>> all the way and rolled the tank around a bit, being careful to keep the
>> gauges and solenoid out of the water. No sign of leaks.
>>
>> So WTF is going on? Leaky solenoid, leaky gauge, sudden depressurization,
>> VERY leaky hose? Any help appreciated.
>
> Bill - that is a lot of CO2 gas to lose in two weeks. It is at a level
> where you
> might hear a hissing sound of gas escaping somewhere. In order to make the
> most of
> your latest 20# batch, I suggest a simple test of flow rate. Open the
> cylinder
> valve so the primary gauge comes up to full pressure of 800psi or so. Then
> close
> it and see how long it takes for the pressure to drop to 0. You can start
> with the
> solenoid unplugged (closed) to test only the cylinder fitting, regulator,
> and
> solenoid. Bubble fluid for leak detection would also work well at the
> cylinder
> connection and threaded pipe joints.
>
> For calibration, I just tried this experiment on an aquarium that has a
> CO2 flow
> rate of 2-3 bubbles per second. I left the CO2 flowing normally into the
> aquarium
> with the cylinder valve closed. Over several minutes there was no
> observable
> change in the primary pressure. I think you would see a big drop in one
> minute
> with the leakage that you are experiencing.
>
> As for hose, I think any common airline tubing that is in good condition
> is
> adequate. I happen to have a bunch of the very flexible and inexpensive
> blue
> silicone tubing and have used that with complete satisfaction.
>
> If no leaks and you think the tank could have vented when everyone was
> away, you
> can try a couple of turns of masking tape around the vent holes of the
> pressure
> relief. Rest assured that the tape will not interfere with the gas
> escaping in
> case of an overpressure situation. More likely you will not be able to
> find the
> remains of the tape. Venting is only likely if the tank was subjected to
> high
> temperature, like being in a car in the sun with the windows closed. Maybe
> being
> exposed to the heater vent for many hours, that kind of thing.
>
> George

Thanks George (& John),

It does look like a leak around the regulator connection. When I removed the
regulator to refill the tank the Teflon tape was discoloured for several
threads back from the seal. I would imagine this was caused by the leaking
gas.

Does anyone have a source for the plastic washers online? The refill place
only has the fibre washers.

[Bill Stock]

"George Pontis" > wrote in message
t...
> In article >, says...
>
> For calibration, I just tried this experiment on an aquarium that has a
> CO2 flow
> rate of 2-3 bubbles per second. I left the CO2 flowing normally into the
> aquarium
> with the cylinder valve closed. Over several minutes there was no
> observable
> change in the primary pressure. I think you would see a big drop in one
> minute
> with the leakage that you are experiencing.
>
> George

The above suggestion was very helpful.

With the solenoid open and the valve closed, the gauges lost pressure almost
immediately. The leak is happening where the bubble counter screws on to the
needle valve. I can't tighten the BC any further, so I need another
solution. Will Loctite solve my problem or is there a better solution?

TIA

[George Pontis]

In article >, says...
>
> "George Pontis" > wrote in message
> t...
> > In article >, says...
> >
> > For calibration, I just tried this experiment on an aquarium that has a
> > CO2 flow
> > rate of 2-3 bubbles per second. I left the CO2 flowing normally into the
> > aquarium
> > with the cylinder valve closed. Over several minutes there was no
> > observable
> > change in the primary pressure. I think you would see a big drop in one
> > minute
> > with the leakage that you are experiencing.
> >
> > George
>
> The above suggestion was very helpful.
>
> With the solenoid open and the valve closed, the gauges lost pressure almost
> immediately. The leak is happening where the bubble counter screws on to the
> needle valve. I can't tighten the BC any further, so I need another
> solution. Will Loctite solve my problem or is there a better solution?
>

Glad to hear that you have reduced the problem to some leaks.

I am a little surprised that you would find a significant leak at the bubble
counter, which is after the needle valve on my Milwaukee system. Anything after
the needle valve, I would expect that it would be throttled back. Could it
possibly be between the regulator output and needle valve input ?

Oh well. If the leak is at a metal to metal fitting then I would not hesitate to
use a commercial pipe thread sealer. Around here, the Home Depot sells tubes of
RectorSeal, which I think would work well. The ideal amount is quite small and you
are supposed to try to avoid the first few threads so the material does not get
into the working fluid, CO2 in this case.

If the leak is where the plastic cylinder meets the metal fitting, then I would
try some silicone grease. It is sold for lubricating faucets and sliding valves.
Be sure that it says silicone and not some generic grease. This stuff is also
useful for lubricating o-rings, and getting hoses to fit over barb fittings that
are a little too big.

George

[Tasslehoff]

The regulator shouldn't have to be screwed real real tight as from personal
experience on the dodgy Macca's/coca cola suplied thin red
rubber/plastic(fibre?) washers, too tight screws them up and you'll end up
with a gushing leak and possible regulator damage, same with the little
yellow plastic ones. Tighten them just so it's fairly firm but not realllly
tight. I'm almost on my second year for a 9kg tank and tunze regulator.

"Bill Stock" > wrote in message
...
>I just had my 20# CO2 cylinder filled up two weeks ago and the damn thing
>is empty again!
>
> I used the plastic washer (1) AND Teflon tape to be on the safe side. I
> put the regulator on REAL tight, dumped the whole thing in the bathtub and
> filled the tub with water to just above the fill pipe. I opened the valve
> all the way and rolled the tank around a bit, being careful to keep the
> gauges and solenoid out of the water. No sign of leaks.
>
> So WTF is going on? Leaky solenoid, leaky gauge, sudden depressurization,
> VERY leaky hose? Any help appreciated.
>
>
>

[Tasslehoff]

I meant third year at 1 bubble/sec.

"Tasslehoff" > wrote in message
u...
> The regulator shouldn't have to be screwed real real tight as from
> personal experience on the dodgy Macca's/coca cola suplied thin red
> rubber/plastic(fibre?) washers, too tight screws them up and you'll end up
> with a gushing leak and possible regulator damage, same with the little
> yellow plastic ones. Tighten them just so it's fairly firm but not
> realllly tight. I'm almost on my second year for a 9kg tank and tunze
> regulator.
>
> "Bill Stock" > wrote in message
> ...
>>I just had my 20# CO2 cylinder filled up two weeks ago and the damn thing
>>is empty again!
>>
>> I used the plastic washer (1) AND Teflon tape to be on the safe side. I
>> put the regulator on REAL tight, dumped the whole thing in the bathtub
>> and filled the tub with water to just above the fill pipe. I opened the
>> valve all the way and rolled the tank around a bit, being careful to keep
>> the gauges and solenoid out of the water. No sign of leaks.
>>
>> So WTF is going on? Leaky solenoid, leaky gauge, sudden depressurization,
>> VERY leaky hose? Any help appreciated.
>>
>>
>>
>
>

[Bill Stock]

"George Pontis" > wrote in message
t...
> In article >, says...
>>
>> "George Pontis" > wrote in message
>> t...
>> > In article >, says...
>> >
>> > For calibration, I just tried this experiment on an aquarium that has a
>> > CO2 flow
>> > rate of 2-3 bubbles per second. I left the CO2 flowing normally into
>> > the
>> > aquarium
>> > with the cylinder valve closed. Over several minutes there was no
>> > observable
>> > change in the primary pressure. I think you would see a big drop in one
>> > minute
>> > with the leakage that you are experiencing.
>> >
>> > George
>>
>> The above suggestion was very helpful.
>>
>> With the solenoid open and the valve closed, the gauges lost pressure
>> almost
>> immediately. The leak is happening where the bubble counter screws on to
>> the
>> needle valve. I can't tighten the BC any further, so I need another
>> solution. Will Loctite solve my problem or is there a better solution?
>>
>
> Glad to hear that you have reduced the problem to some leaks.
>
> I am a little surprised that you would find a significant leak at the
> bubble
> counter, which is after the needle valve on my Milwaukee system. Anything
> after
> the needle valve, I would expect that it would be throttled back. Could it
> possibly be between the regulator output and needle valve input ?
>
<snip>

Yeah, I was surprised too. I did not think I could lose that much gas in so
short a period of time on the low pressure side.

Once (24 hour cure) I put Loctite (Blue) on the threads between the bubble
counter and the needle valve the bubble count went off the scale, whereas I
was only getting about two or three BPS before. The guage also holds its
pressure now with the valve closed and the solenoid open.

Thanks.


>
> George

[Bill Stock]

"Tasslehoff" > wrote in message
u...
> The regulator shouldn't have to be screwed real real tight as from
> personal experience on the dodgy Macca's/coca cola suplied thin red
> rubber/plastic(fibre?) washers, too tight screws them up and you'll end up
> with a gushing leak and possible regulator damage, same with the little
> yellow plastic ones. Tighten them just so it's fairly firm but not
> realllly tight. I'm almost on my second year for a 9kg tank and tunze
> regulator.

Thanks, I've seen fibre, nylon and Teflon listed. Are the yellow ones
Teflon?





> "Bill Stock" > wrote in message
> ...
>>I just had my 20# CO2 cylinder filled up two weeks ago and the damn thing
>>is empty again!
>>
>> I used the plastic washer (1) AND Teflon tape to be on the safe side. I
>> put the regulator on REAL tight, dumped the whole thing in the bathtub
>> and filled the tub with water to just above the fill pipe. I opened the
>> valve all the way and rolled the tank around a bit, being careful to keep
>> the gauges and solenoid out of the water. No sign of leaks.
>>
>> So WTF is going on? Leaky solenoid, leaky gauge, sudden depressurization,
>> VERY leaky hose? Any help appreciated.
>>
>>
>>
>
>

[George Pontis]

In article >, says...
> ...
>
> Yeah, I was surprised too. I did not think I could lose that much gas in so
> short a period of time on the low pressure side.
>
> Once (24 hour cure) I put Loctite (Blue) on the threads between the bubble
> counter and the needle valve the bubble count went off the scale, whereas I
> was only getting about two or three BPS before. The guage also holds its
> pressure now with the valve closed and the solenoid open.
>
> Thanks.

That makes sense - the valve was way open due to the big leak. It is good to hear
that you have the fixed now.

Geo.

[Dan Drake]

On Fri, 16 Sep 2005 04:32:09 UTC, George Pontis >
wrote:

> > So WTF is going on? Leaky solenoid, leaky gauge, sudden depressurization,
> > VERY leaky hose? Any help appreciated.
>
> Bill - that is a lot of CO2 gas to lose in two weeks. It is at a level where you
> might hear a hissing sound of gas escaping somewhere. In order to make the most of
> your latest 20# batch, I suggest a simple test of flow rate. Open the cylinder
> valve so the primary gauge comes up to full pressure of 800psi or so. Then close
> it and see how long it takes for the pressure to drop to 0. You can start with the
> solenoid unplugged (closed) to test only the cylinder fitting, regulator, and
> solenoid.

I second that. And I find that the time it takes for the primary pressure
to go away is like forever. Well, anyway, more than 5-10 minutes to see
any drop at all on the gauge. You might want to test it first with the
regulator set to 0 pressure, then with it at the normal pressure and the
solenoid closed. Then open the solenoid and close the needle valve.
I've seen a solenoid that leaked *only* when it was open (and downstream
flow was completely stopped); it tested fine when closed.

Beyond the needle valve the pressure should be next to nothing, and it's
hard to imagine anything leaking significantly.

--
Dan Drake

http://www.dandrake.com/
porlockjr.blogspot.com