Reef Tank - Substrate or Not???

[J&T]

I'm in the process of setting up my first reef aquarium and can't decide
whether to use a substrate or not. I'm planning a 500 litre tank to mature
with 20kgs of live rock, trickle filter/sump system, etc.

My supplier recommends a coral sand substrate, however I've read that using
a raised platform to support rocks will improve water circulation, reduce
detritus build and reduce cleaning required. The only negative point I've
heard is that it doesn't look as natural as a sand substrate - however I'm
told that the platform front edge will eventually be covered by sponges,
coral, etc which will try and colonise it.

Does anybody have any advice or links which may help me decide? Also, what
is the best material for the support grid (food grade stainless
steel?)...... all comments will be greatly appreciated.........John (UK)

[Marc Levenson]

Hi John,

Using a DSB (4" sandbed) can help take care of normal nitrate levels, keeping
them down automatically.

CC might look better, and won't blow around, but it doesn't help with nitrates
at all and you must vacuum it every once in a while (I do mine 4 times a year).

A platform made of PVC or acrylic would work, but not look very appealing at
all. I wouldn't do it.

You need to double if not triple the amount of LR you plan to use. 20kg isn't
nearly enough for a reef tank. 1 to 1.5 lbs per gallon.... if I recall, 1kg
equals 2.2lbs, right? With a 125g tank, you'll want 125 to 190lbs of LR to be
your natural biological filtration.

Take a look at this page please:

http://www.melevsreef.com/overview.htm

Marc


J&T wrote:

> I'm in the process of setting up my first reef aquarium and can't decide
> whether to use a substrate or not. I'm planning a 500 litre tank to mature
> with 20kgs of live rock, trickle filter/sump system, etc.
>
> My supplier recommends a coral sand substrate, however I've read that using
> a raised platform to support rocks will improve water circulation, reduce
> detritus build and reduce cleaning required. The only negative point I've
> heard is that it doesn't look as natural as a sand substrate - however I'm
> told that the platform front edge will eventually be covered by sponges,
> coral, etc which will try and colonise it.
>
> Does anybody have any advice or links which may help me decide? Also, what
> is the best material for the support grid (food grade stainless
> steel?)...... all comments will be greatly appreciated.........John (UK)

--
Personal Page: http://www.sparklingfloorservice.com/oanda/index.html
Business Page: http://www.sparklingfloorservice.com
Marine Hobbyist: http://www.melevsreef.com

[Bob Parkins]

As a devoute follower of "the king" Marc Levenson, I would second anything
he says ;)
Besides.... it just looks dumb w/o substrate.

Marc Levenson > wrote in message
...
> Hi John,
>
> Using a DSB (4" sandbed) can help take care of normal nitrate levels,
keeping
> them down automatically.
>
> CC might look better, and won't blow around, but it doesn't help with
nitrates
> at all and you must vacuum it every once in a while (I do mine 4 times a
year).
>
> A platform made of PVC or acrylic would work, but not look very appealing
at
> all. I wouldn't do it.
>
> You need to double if not triple the amount of LR you plan to use. 20kg
isn't
> nearly enough for a reef tank. 1 to 1.5 lbs per gallon.... if I recall,
1kg
> equals 2.2lbs, right? With a 125g tank, you'll want 125 to 190lbs of LR
to be
> your natural biological filtration.
>
> Take a look at this page please:
>
> http://www.melevsreef.com/overview.htm
>
> Marc
>
>
> J&T wrote:
>
> > I'm in the process of setting up my first reef aquarium and can't decide
> > whether to use a substrate or not. I'm planning a 500 litre tank to
mature
> > with 20kgs of live rock, trickle filter/sump system, etc.
> >
> > My supplier recommends a coral sand substrate, however I've read that
using
> > a raised platform to support rocks will improve water circulation,
reduce
> > detritus build and reduce cleaning required. The only negative point
I've
> > heard is that it doesn't look as natural as a sand substrate - however
I'm
> > told that the platform front edge will eventually be covered by sponges,
> > coral, etc which will try and colonise it.
> >
> > Does anybody have any advice or links which may help me decide? Also,
what
> > is the best material for the support grid (food grade stainless
> > steel?)...... all comments will be greatly appreciated.........John (UK)
>
> --
> Personal Page: http://www.sparklingfloorservice.com/oanda/index.html
> Business Page: http://www.sparklingfloorservice.com
> Marine Hobbyist: http://www.melevsreef.com
>
>

[Dragon Slayer]

I have seen many tanks with the pipe stand for support and I agree, they
look plain trashy. yes they will get coralline algae and a few life forms
to colonize on them but they still look like PVC pipe and eggcrate. not
very attractive.

kc

"Bob Parkins" > wrote in message
nk.net...
> As a devoute follower of "the king" Marc Levenson, I would second anything
> he says ;)
> Besides.... it just looks dumb w/o substrate.
>
> Marc Levenson > wrote in message
> ...
> > Hi John,
> >
> > Using a DSB (4" sandbed) can help take care of normal nitrate levels,
> keeping
> > them down automatically.
> >
> > CC might look better, and won't blow around, but it doesn't help with
> nitrates
> > at all and you must vacuum it every once in a while (I do mine 4 times a
> year).
> >
> > A platform made of PVC or acrylic would work, but not look very
appealing
> at
> > all. I wouldn't do it.
> >
> > You need to double if not triple the amount of LR you plan to use. 20kg
> isn't
> > nearly enough for a reef tank. 1 to 1.5 lbs per gallon.... if I recall,
> 1kg
> > equals 2.2lbs, right? With a 125g tank, you'll want 125 to 190lbs of LR
> to be
> > your natural biological filtration.
> >
> > Take a look at this page please:
> >
> > http://www.melevsreef.com/overview.htm
> >
> > Marc
> >
> >
> > J&T wrote:
> >
> > > I'm in the process of setting up my first reef aquarium and can't
decide
> > > whether to use a substrate or not. I'm planning a 500 litre tank to
> mature
> > > with 20kgs of live rock, trickle filter/sump system, etc.
> > >
> > > My supplier recommends a coral sand substrate, however I've read that
> using
> > > a raised platform to support rocks will improve water circulation,
> reduce
> > > detritus build and reduce cleaning required. The only negative point
> I've
> > > heard is that it doesn't look as natural as a sand substrate - however
> I'm
> > > told that the platform front edge will eventually be covered by
sponges,
> > > coral, etc which will try and colonise it.
> > >
> > > Does anybody have any advice or links which may help me decide? Also,
> what
> > > is the best material for the support grid (food grade stainless
> > > steel?)...... all comments will be greatly appreciated.........John
(UK)
> >
> > --
> > Personal Page: http://www.sparklingfloorservice.com/oanda/index.html
> > Business Page: http://www.sparklingfloorservice.com
> > Marine Hobbyist: http://www.melevsreef.com
> >
> >
>
>

[Jimmy Chen]

> I'm in the process of setting up my first reef aquarium and can't decide
> whether to use a substrate or not. I'm planning a 500 litre tank to mature
> with 20kgs of live rock, trickle filter/sump system, etc.

Being you are in the UK, I dont know how easy it will be for you to get
livesand and related stuff. With that said, I would recommend fine sand over
crush corals anyday. However, substrate is not required to have a successful
reef tank.

> however I've read that using
> a raised platform to support rocks will improve water circulation, reduce
> detritus build and reduce cleaning required.

> Does anybody have any advice or links which may help me decide? Also, what
> is the best material for the support grid

Your household PVC pipe will do just fine. For details on how to do this, I
recommend "The Modern Coral Reef Aquarium" vol 1 by Fossa/Nilsen.

jc

[Jimmy Chen]

> > with 20kgs of live rock, trickle filter/sump system, etc.

I forget to add that.

jc

[Fishnut]

On Sun, 26 Oct 2003 18:22:40 -0000, "J&T"
> wrote:

>I'm in the process of setting up my first reef aquarium and can't decide
>whether to use a substrate or not. I'm planning a 500 litre tank to mature
>with 20kgs of live rock, trickle filter/sump system, etc.
>
>My supplier recommends a coral sand substrate, however I've read that using
>a raised platform to support rocks will improve water circulation, reduce
>detritus build and reduce cleaning required. The only negative point I've
>heard is that it doesn't look as natural as a sand substrate - however I'm
>told that the platform front edge will eventually be covered by sponges,
>coral, etc which will try and colonise it.
>
>Does anybody have any advice or links which may help me decide? Also, what
>is the best material for the support grid (food grade stainless
>steel?)...... all comments will be greatly appreciated.........John (UK)
>
John,

Just to add to what the others have posted, I don't think "stainless
steel" is a good idea, as it is of variable quality, and may (will)
leach unwanted heavy-metals into sal****er. Use white PVC pipes, as
Jimmy said, if you wish to raise the liverock a few inches.

Buy a copy of PFK magazine and buy coralsand mailorder, for about £ 18
/ 24 Kgs. free-delivery to your door.

Regards, Fishnut.

[J&T]

Thanks to you all for your comments and advice. I think I will go for the
safer and more attractive option of a coral sand substrate and try and keep
on top of the cleaning. Thanks also for pointing out that I have
underestimated the live rock requirement - oh well the budget was blown to
bits with a sump system anyway.

I'm still a bit confused about the pros and cons of lighting - metal halides
Vs high output flourescents - and will look at some of the links you have
suggested for more info.

Also a bit confused by what I saw at the supplier's premises. Has a thriving
200 gal reef tank (fish & inverts) which has been operational for 6 months
now - no water change has been carried out since maturing the tank. How can
someone get away with that when everything I read stipulates frequent water
changes regardless of filtration - around 15% every 2 weeks. I assume the
supplier has an extremely efficient filtration system - still, why no
disaster after 6 months??

I'm hoping to finalise my order for kit this weekend if I'm confident enough
of what I'm doing.

Thanks again - what an ace group!!

John


"J&T" > wrote in message
...
> I'm in the process of setting up my first reef aquarium and can't decide
> whether to use a substrate or not. I'm planning a 500 litre tank to mature
> with 20kgs of live rock, trickle filter/sump system, etc.
>
> My supplier recommends a coral sand substrate, however I've read that
using
> a raised platform to support rocks will improve water circulation, reduce
> detritus build and reduce cleaning required. The only negative point I've
> heard is that it doesn't look as natural as a sand substrate - however I'm
> told that the platform front edge will eventually be covered by sponges,
> coral, etc which will try and colonise it.
>
> Does anybody have any advice or links which may help me decide? Also, what
> is the best material for the support grid (food grade stainless
> steel?)...... all comments will be greatly appreciated.........John (UK)
>
>

[Jimmy Chen]

> Also a bit confused by what I saw at the supplier's premises. Has a
thriving
> 200 gal reef tank (fish & inverts) which has been operational for 6 months
> now - no water change has been carried out since maturing the tank. How
can
> someone get away with that when everything I read stipulates frequent
water
> changes regardless of filtration - around 15% every 2 weeks. I assume the
> supplier has an extremely efficient filtration system - still, why no
> disaster after 6 months??

I can count the number of water changes I have done in the past 6 years with
one hand. ;p ;p ;p

A kickass skimmer will help in getting the grabage out. But frequent water
changes is still one of the most sound advices as it also adjusts whatever
undetectable mishaps that may be taking place in the system.

As for the LFS, is that system a display only standalone, or is it a stock
for sale tank? If its the latter, then they are doing water changes just by
selling stuff out of it.

jc

[Harald]

"J&T" > wrote in message
...
> Thanks to you all for your comments and advice. I think I will go for the
> safer and more attractive option of a coral sand substrate and try and
keep
> on top of the cleaning. Thanks also for pointing out that I have
> underestimated the live rock requirement - oh well the budget was blown to
> bits with a sump system anyway.

A deep sand bed is a great setup for a marine reef tank, since it, together
with the LR, does all your filtering for you, and you won't need to have any
external filters running.

> I'm still a bit confused about the pros and cons of lighting - metal
halides
> Vs high output flourescents - and will look at some of the links you have
> suggested for more info.

Metal halides are good if you are going to be keeping stony corals, clams,
or other light-loving animals. PC and VHO flourescents are fine for fish,
inverts, and most soft corals.

> Also a bit confused by what I saw at the supplier's premises. Has a
thriving
> 200 gal reef tank (fish & inverts) which has been operational for 6 months
> now - no water change has been carried out since maturing the tank. How
can
> someone get away with that when everything I read stipulates frequent
water
> changes regardless of filtration - around 15% every 2 weeks. I assume the
> supplier has an extremely efficient filtration system - still, why no
> disaster after 6 months??

I haven't done a single water change on my 20 gal nano since it
cycled...last January. All I've done is top-offs of fresh RO water to
restore water lost due to evaporation. Water changes are generally required
not to keep things clean, but to reduce nitrates, restore trace elements and
dissolved calcium for the inverts that live in your system. However, if you
use a kalk drip, that takes care of your calcium requirements, and you can
dose other chemicals as well, which would remove or reduce the need for
water changes. All this is assuming you are using a DSB for your filter and
you have enough LR in your tank. If either of those are not available, then
the nitrates will get higher & higher and you will need to do water changes
to reduce the concentration of nitrates. The DSB and LR combo have anoxic
zones, in which bacteria live that convert the nitrates to nitrogen(and I
think O2...I think it is: 2NO3 -> 1N2 + 3O2), which then bubbles off and out
of your tank.

hth

--
Harald
130 g Skimmerless SW Tank
290 pound 6" DSB
70 lbs LR
3 B/G Chromis, 1 Tomato Clown, 1 Lawnmower Blenny, 1 Flame Angel, 1 Foxface.

20 gal Skimmerless SW Nano(no water changes for ~11 months)
80 lbs/6" DSB
31 lbs LR, 1 - 3-Striped damsel, 1 Blue Devil, 1 sm. Tang