Re: Chronic low Alk?

[Pszemol]

"Ric Seyler" > wrote in message .. .
> Thanks for the reply Boomer.
> I'm using LaMotte CAL & Alk kits.
> I tested yesterday and my CAL was 425
> and my Alk was around 6.5.

6.5 mEq/l or 6.5 dH ?

[Pszemol]

"Boomer" > wrote in message ...
> That is not low at all but what NSW is
>
> 6.5 / 2.8 = 2.32 meq / land NSW is about 2. 25 meq/ l

Seachem recomends keeping alkalinity at higher levels than NSW.
I am not sure, but it is to fight higher level of polution with acids
normally occuring in our closed systems in our fish tanks.
I am not able to keep alkalinity high neither and I am also
fighting with chronic too much algae.

My test for alkalinity counts drops to change color and it
reads 5-6 drops, which translates to 2.5-3 mEq/l, so
higher than NSW but I have a lot of hair algae with
NO3 at the level of 10-15mg/l. Also looking for some tips
to rise alkalinity or other ways to keep algae under control.

Doing frequent water changes does not help much. NO3
quickly stabilizes at 10-15mg/l level ans somehow gets
to balance at this level.

I control Ca levels with SeaLabs #28 and it is at high
450-480mg/l all the time. Tried SeaLabs #15 with no
visible results.

[Boomer]

"I am not sure, but it is to fight higher level of pollution with acids
normally occurring in our closed systems in our fish tanks.
I am not able to keep alkalinity high neither and I am also
fighting with chronic too much algae"

Yes we usually recommend levels of 3.5-4.5 meq / l. If your alk is going down to things
are happening. The load is high and using it up and/or corals need it to make CaCO3. It is
normal for many systems to have/get a lower Alk for these reasons. Alk will drop much
faster than Ca on normal conditions in some tanks, as there is much, much, more Ca in
relation to Alk. In other words if your corals removed all the Alk your system had to
0Alk, to make CaCO3, where the Ca was 400 mg/ l , the Ca would only drop to about 375 mg /
l Ca

Get some Baking Soda to raise the Alk up to 3.5

--
Boomer

Want to talk chemistry ? The Reef Chemistry Forum
http://www.reefcentral.com/vbulletin/index.php

Want to See More ?
Please Join Our Growing Membership
www.coralrealm.com

If You See Me Running You Better Catch-Up
"Pszemol" > wrote in message ...
: "Boomer" > wrote in message
...
: > That is not low at all but what NSW is
: >
: > 6.5 / 2.8 = 2.32 meq / land NSW is about 2. 25 meq/ l
:
: Seachem recomends keeping alkalinity at higher levels than NSW.
: I am not sure, but it is to fight higher level of polution with acids
: normally occuring in our closed systems in our fish tanks.
: I am not able to keep alkalinity high neither and I am also
: fighting with chronic too much algae.
:
: My test for alkalinity counts drops to change color and it
: reads 5-6 drops, which translates to 2.5-3 mEq/l, so
: higher than NSW but I have a lot of hair algae with
: NO3 at the level of 10-15mg/l. Also looking for some tips
: to rise alkalinity or other ways to keep algae under control.
:
: Doing frequent water changes does not help much. NO3
: quickly stabilizes at 10-15mg/l level ans somehow gets
: to balance at this level.
:
: I control Ca levels with SeaLabs #28 and it is at high
: 450-480mg/l all the time. Tried SeaLabs #15 with no
: visible results.

[Pszemol]

"Boomer" > wrote in message ...
> "I am not sure, but it is to fight higher level of pollution with acids
> normally occurring in our closed systems in our fish tanks.
> I am not able to keep alkalinity high neither and I am also
> fighting with chronic too much algae"
>
> Yes we usually recommend levels of 3.5-4.5 meq / l. If your alk is going down to things
> are happening. The load is high and using it up and/or corals need it to make CaCO3. It is
> normal for many systems to have/get a lower Alk for these reasons. Alk will drop much
> faster than Ca on normal conditions in some tanks, as there is much, much, more Ca in
> relation to Alk. In other words if your corals removed all the Alk your system had to
> 0Alk, to make CaCO3, where the Ca was 400 mg/ l , the Ca would only drop to about 375 mg /
> l Ca
>
> Get some Baking Soda to raise the Alk up to 3.5

The thing is in my case I do not have too much corals, no hard ones in a matter of fact,
but I have heavy load of fish: quite a big tang and three other small fish in 30 g tank.
How should I keep up with rising alk in my case? Will baking soda work for me?

[Boomer]

Baking Soda should be fine or a combination of baking soda and soda ash ( washing soda,
NaCO3), at a ratio of 5:1

--
Boomer

Want to talk chemistry ? The Reef Chemistry Forum
http://www.reefcentral.com/vbulletin/index.php

Want to See More ?
Please Join Our Growing Membership
www.coralrealm.com

If You See Me Running You Better Catch-Up
"Pszemol" > wrote in message ...
: "Boomer" > wrote in message
...
: > "I am not sure, but it is to fight higher level of pollution with acids
: > normally occurring in our closed systems in our fish tanks.
: > I am not able to keep alkalinity high neither and I am also
: > fighting with chronic too much algae"
: >
: > Yes we usually recommend levels of 3.5-4.5 meq / l. If your alk is going down to
things
: > are happening. The load is high and using it up and/or corals need it to make CaCO3.
It is
: > normal for many systems to have/get a lower Alk for these reasons. Alk will drop much
: > faster than Ca on normal conditions in some tanks, as there is much, much, more Ca in
: > relation to Alk. In other words if your corals removed all the Alk your system had to
: > 0Alk, to make CaCO3, where the Ca was 400 mg/ l , the Ca would only drop to about 375
mg /
: > l Ca
: >
: > Get some Baking Soda to raise the Alk up to 3.5
:
: The thing is in my case I do not have too much corals, no hard ones in a matter of fact,
: but I have heavy load of fish: quite a big tang and three other small fish in 30 g tank.
: How should I keep up with rising alk in my case? Will baking soda work for me?

[Boomer]

also if you are dealing with mostly just fish and Ca is of no concern then SeaChem labs
Marine Buffer, but not for a reef tank where there is a Ca demand

--
Boomer

Want to talk chemistry ? The Reef Chemistry Forum
http://www.reefcentral.com/vbulletin/index.php

Want to See More ?
Please Join Our Growing Membership
www.coralrealm.com

If You See Me Running You Better Catch-Up
"Boomer" > wrote in message
...
: Baking Soda should be fine or a combination of baking soda and soda ash ( washing soda,
: NaCO3), at a ratio of 5:1
:
: --
: Boomer
:
: Want to talk chemistry ? The Reef Chemistry Forum
: http://www.reefcentral.com/vbulletin/index.php
:
: Want to See More ?
: Please Join Our Growing Membership
: www.coralrealm.com
:
: If You See Me Running You Better Catch-Up
: "Pszemol" > wrote in message ...
: : "Boomer" > wrote in message
: ...
: : > "I am not sure, but it is to fight higher level of pollution with acids
: : > normally occurring in our closed systems in our fish tanks.
: : > I am not able to keep alkalinity high neither and I am also
: : > fighting with chronic too much algae"
: : >
: : > Yes we usually recommend levels of 3.5-4.5 meq / l. If your alk is going down to
: things
: : > are happening. The load is high and using it up and/or corals need it to make CaCO3.
: It is
: : > normal for many systems to have/get a lower Alk for these reasons. Alk will drop
much
: : > faster than Ca on normal conditions in some tanks, as there is much, much, more Ca
in
: : > relation to Alk. In other words if your corals removed all the Alk your system had
to
: : > 0Alk, to make CaCO3, where the Ca was 400 mg/ l , the Ca would only drop to about
375
: mg /
: : > l Ca
: : >
: : > Get some Baking Soda to raise the Alk up to 3.5
: :
: : The thing is in my case I do not have too much corals, no hard ones in a matter of
fact,
: : but I have heavy load of fish: quite a big tang and three other small fish in 30 g
tank.
: : How should I keep up with rising alk in my case? Will baking soda work for me?
:
:

[Pszemol]

"Boomer" > wrote in message ...
> also if you are dealing with mostly just fish and Ca is of no concern then
> SeaChem labs Marine Buffer, but not for a reef tank where there is a Ca demand

I have small Ca demand since I have live rock, many snails, coraline algae etc.
I do not have any stony corals.

[Boomer]

Ok, no Marine Buffer

--
Boomer

Want to talk chemistry ? The Reef Chemistry Forum
http://www.reefcentral.com/vbulletin/index.php

Want to See More ?
Please Join Our Growing Membership
www.coralrealm.com

If You See Me Running You Better Catch-Up
"Pszemol" > wrote in message ...
: "Boomer" > wrote in message
...
: > also if you are dealing with mostly just fish and Ca is of no concern then
: > SeaChem labs Marine Buffer, but not for a reef tank where there is a Ca demand
:
: I have small Ca demand since I have live rock, many snails, coraline algae etc.
: I do not have any stony corals.

[wolfhedd]

the rate at which you add baking soda is about 1 teaspoon per 10 gallons per
day until desired level is reached, diluting the baking soda in salt or
freshwater before adding to your tank. What is your PH. if it is high,
then you may have a problem with your CO2 outtake, sometimes translating
into poor circulaiton. thats just one scenario. You need to stabilize your
PH to get your ALK to stabilize.
WH
"Boomer" > wrote in message
...
> Ok, no Marine Buffer
>
> --
> Boomer
>
> Want to talk chemistry ? The Reef Chemistry Forum
> http://www.reefcentral.com/vbulletin/index.php
>
> Want to See More ?
> Please Join Our Growing Membership
> www.coralrealm.com
>
> If You See Me Running You Better Catch-Up
> "Pszemol" > wrote in message
...
> : "Boomer" > wrote in message
> ...
> : > also if you are dealing with mostly just fish and Ca is of no concern
then
> : > SeaChem labs Marine Buffer, but not for a reef tank where there is a
Ca demand
> :
> : I have small Ca demand since I have live rock, many snails, coraline
algae etc.
> : I do not have any stony corals.
>
>

[Boomer]

"What is your PH. if it is high,
then you may have a problem with your CO2 outtake, sometimes translating
into poor circulaiton. thats just one scenario. You need to stabilize your
PH to get your ALK to stabilize."

This makes no sense. CO2 doe not cause high pH but low pH. pH could care less what the Alk
is, as Alk is not affected by CO2 but CO2 does affect the pH. The ratio of Alk to CO2
gives an X pH


--
Boomer

Want to talk chemistry ? The Reef Chemistry Forum
http://www.reefcentral.com/vbulletin/index.php

Want to See More ?
Please Join Our Growing Membership
www.coralrealm.com

If You See Me Running You Better Catch-Up
"wolfhedd" > wrote in message
ink.net...
: the rate at which you add baking soda is about 1 teaspoon per 10 gallons per
: day until desired level is reached, diluting the baking soda in salt or
: freshwater before adding to your tank. What is your PH. if it is high,
: then you may have a problem with your CO2 outtake, sometimes translating
: into poor circulaiton. thats just one scenario. You need to stabilize your
: PH to get your ALK to stabilize.
: WH
: "Boomer" > wrote in message
: ...
: > Ok, no Marine Buffer
: >
: > --
: > Boomer
: >
: > Want to talk chemistry ? The Reef Chemistry Forum
: > http://www.reefcentral.com/vbulletin/index.php
: >
: > Want to See More ?
: > Please Join Our Growing Membership
: > www.coralrealm.com
: >
: > If You See Me Running You Better Catch-Up
: > "Pszemol" > wrote in message
: ...
: > : "Boomer" > wrote in message
: > ...
: > : > also if you are dealing with mostly just fish and Ca is of no concern
: then
: > : > SeaChem labs Marine Buffer, but not for a reef tank where there is a
: Ca demand
: > :
: > : I have small Ca demand since I have live rock, many snails, coraline
: algae etc.
: > : I do not have any stony corals.
: >
: >
:
:

[wolfhedd]

Very sorry, your right, i had it backwards, but still same principle, check
your PH, it may be the reason, your CO2 may be LOW! if it is low, it could
cause high PH which may adversley afect your Alk. Thought is was worth
mentioning since that was one suspect of my high PH swing. If you have alot
of algae say for instance, they could starve the tank of CO2 possibly, if
you have poor circulation, causing co2 to drop, causing ph to raise, causing
Alk. swings.

now doesnt this sound feasible?
WH

"Boomer" > wrote in message
...
> "What is your PH. if it is high,
> then you may have a problem with your CO2 outtake, sometimes translating
> into poor circulaiton. thats just one scenario. You need to stabilize
your
> PH to get your ALK to stabilize."
>
> This makes no sense. CO2 doe not cause high pH but low pH. pH could care
less what the Alk
> is, as Alk is not affected by CO2 but CO2 does affect the pH. The ratio of
Alk to CO2
> gives an X pH
>
>
> --
> Boomer
>
> Want to talk chemistry ? The Reef Chemistry Forum
> http://www.reefcentral.com/vbulletin/index.php
>
> Want to See More ?
> Please Join Our Growing Membership
> www.coralrealm.com
>
> If You See Me Running You Better Catch-Up
> "wolfhedd" > wrote in message
> ink.net...
> : the rate at which you add baking soda is about 1 teaspoon per 10 gallons
per
> : day until desired level is reached, diluting the baking soda in salt or
> : freshwater before adding to your tank. What is your PH. if it is high,
> : then you may have a problem with your CO2 outtake, sometimes translating
> : into poor circulaiton. thats just one scenario. You need to stabilize
your
> : PH to get your ALK to stabilize.
> : WH
> : "Boomer" > wrote in message
> : ...
> : > Ok, no Marine Buffer
> : >
> : > --
> : > Boomer
> : >
> : > Want to talk chemistry ? The Reef Chemistry Forum
> : > http://www.reefcentral.com/vbulletin/index.php
> : >
> : > Want to See More ?
> : > Please Join Our Growing Membership
> : > www.coralrealm.com
> : >
> : > If You See Me Running You Better Catch-Up
> : > "Pszemol" > wrote in message
> : ...
> : > : "Boomer" > wrote in message
> : > ...
> : > : > also if you are dealing with mostly just fish and Ca is of no
concern
> : then
> : > : > SeaChem labs Marine Buffer, but not for a reef tank where there is
a
> : Ca demand
> : > :
> : > : I have small Ca demand since I have live rock, many snails, coraline
> : algae etc.
> : > : I do not have any stony corals.
> : >
> : >
> :
> :
>
>

[Boomer]

". If you have alot
of algae say for instance, they could starve the tank of CO2 possibly, if
you have poor circulation, causing co2 to drop, causing ph to raise, causing"

Yes, this can happen but it is not very common, except in Planted Marco Algae Tanks. CO2
in seawater is low to begin with.What really cause this problem is the plants using the
little CO2 there is and then feeding off the CO3 and HCO3, carbonates and bicarbonates,
converting them to CO2 which raise the pH, which if there is enough will lower the Alk.
Circulation is usually not an issue, as circulation usually removes CO2 from the system.
Poor circulation will cause the CO2 to increase/build in most cases, followed by a pH
drop. You can prove this with a glass of water and some pH indicator. Dr.Randy Holmes
Farley calls it the "Boomer Glass Trick"
--
Boomer

Want to talk chemistry ? The Reef Chemistry Forum
http://www.reefcentral.com/vbulletin/index.php

Want to See More ?
Please Join Our Growing Membership
www.coralrealm.com

If You See Me Running You Better Catch-Up
"wolfhedd" > wrote in message
ink.net...
: Very sorry, your right, i had it backwards, but still same principle, check
: your PH, it may be the reason, your CO2 may be LOW! if it is low, it could
: cause high PH which may adversley afect your Alk. Thought is was worth
: mentioning since that was one suspect of my high PH swing. If you have alot
: of algae say for instance, they could starve the tank of CO2 possibly, if
: you have poor circulation, causing co2 to drop, causing ph to raise, causing
: Alk. swings.
:
: now doesnt this sound feasible?
: WH
:
: "Boomer" > wrote in message
: ...
: > "What is your PH. if it is high,
: > then you may have a problem with your CO2 outtake, sometimes translating
: > into poor circulaiton. thats just one scenario. You need to stabilize
: your
: > PH to get your ALK to stabilize."
: >
: > This makes no sense. CO2 doe not cause high pH but low pH. pH could care
: less what the Alk
: > is, as Alk is not affected by CO2 but CO2 does affect the pH. The ratio of
: Alk to CO2
: > gives an X pH
: >
: >
: > --
: > Boomer
: >
: > Want to talk chemistry ? The Reef Chemistry Forum
: > http://www.reefcentral.com/vbulletin/index.php
: >
: > Want to See More ?
: > Please Join Our Growing Membership
: > www.coralrealm.com
: >
: > If You See Me Running You Better Catch-Up
: > "wolfhedd" > wrote in message
: > ink.net...
: > : the rate at which you add baking soda is about 1 teaspoon per 10 gallons
: per
: > : day until desired level is reached, diluting the baking soda in salt or
: > : freshwater before adding to your tank. What is your PH. if it is high,
: > : then you may have a problem with your CO2 outtake, sometimes translating
: > : into poor circulaiton. thats just one scenario. You need to stabilize
: your
: > : PH to get your ALK to stabilize.
: > : WH
: > : "Boomer" > wrote in message
: > : ...
: > : > Ok, no Marine Buffer
: > : >
: > : > --
: > : > Boomer
: > : >
: > : > Want to talk chemistry ? The Reef Chemistry Forum
: > : > http://www.reefcentral.com/vbulletin/index.php
: > : >
: > : > Want to See More ?
: > : > Please Join Our Growing Membership
: > : > www.coralrealm.com
: > : >
: > : > If You See Me Running You Better Catch-Up
: > : > "Pszemol" > wrote in message
: > : ...
: > : > : "Boomer" > wrote in message
: > : > ...
: > : > : > also if you are dealing with mostly just fish and Ca is of no
: concern
: > : then
: > : > : > SeaChem labs Marine Buffer, but not for a reef tank where there is
: a
: > : Ca demand
: > : > :
: > : > : I have small Ca demand since I have live rock, many snails, coraline
: > : algae etc.
: > : > : I do not have any stony corals.
: > : >
: > : >
: > :
: > :
: >
: >
:
:

[Pszemol]

What you just said is very interestig, because in many recipes for getting
rid of GHA there is a note to rise the alk. Acording to what you said, alk.
is lowered by the photosynthesis activity as algae is using CO3--, HCO3-.
So if I try to rise alkalinity by dropping Baking Soda I am feeding my
green hair ALGAE I try to get rid of!! Am I missing something here??

"Boomer" > wrote in message ...
> ". If you have alot
> of algae say for instance, they could starve the tank of CO2 possibly, if
> you have poor circulation, causing co2 to drop, causing ph to raise, causing"
>
> Yes, this can happen but it is not very common, except in Planted Marco Algae Tanks. CO2
> in seawater is low to begin with.What really cause this problem is the plants using the
> little CO2 there is and then feeding off the CO3 and HCO3, carbonates and bicarbonates,
> converting them to CO2 which raise the pH, which if there is enough will lower the Alk.
> Circulation is usually not an issue, as circulation usually removes CO2 from the system.
> Poor circulation will cause the CO2 to increase/build in most cases, followed by a pH
> drop. You can prove this with a glass of water and some pH indicator. Dr.Randy Holmes
> Farley calls it the "Boomer Glass Trick"
> --
> Boomer
>
> Want to talk chemistry ? The Reef Chemistry Forum
> http://www.reefcentral.com/vbulletin/index.php
>
> Want to See More ?
> Please Join Our Growing Membership
> www.coralrealm.com
>
> If You See Me Running You Better Catch-Up

[Boomer]

"So if I try to rise alkalinity by dropping Baking Soda I am feeding my
green hair ALGAE I try to get rid of!! Am I missing something here??"


Yes, you missed allot :-)

Your corals need CO2 and some plants and corals prefer HCO3 over CO2.What heavily planted
tanks do is remove most or all of the nutrients and the CO2, HCO3 and CO3, which raise the
pH. *If all CO2/Alk was removed, the plants would die, from a total lack of CO2 or where
they could covert HCO3 or CO3 to CO2. If you removed all or most of the algae the pH
could/would soon crash, as it would have no buffer to keep the pH up, if acids where added
or released, as the Alk would be near 0, there would be nothing to counteract the acids
and organics/nutrients, which like to lower the pH.. You will never see this happening, it
is just theoretical, so dont; worry about it, same for the Baking Soda additon.


The relationship of CO2 , pH and KH/ALk in a Fresh Water System

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
\ pH | 6.0 6.2 6.4 6.6 6.8 7.0 7.2 7.4 8.0
KH\ |
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
0.5 | 15 9.3 5.9 3.7 2.4 1.5 0.9 0.6 0.2
1.0 | 30 19 12 7 5 3 1.9 1.2 0.3
1.5 | 44 28 18 11 7 4 2.8 1.8 0.4
2.0 | 59 37 24 15 9 6 4 2.4 0.6
2.5 | 73 46 30 19 12 7 5 3 0.7
3.0 | 87 56 35 22 14 9 6 4 0.9
3.5 | 103 65 41 26 16 10 7 4 1.0
4.0 | 118 75 47 30 19 12 6 5 1.2
5.0 | 147 93 59 37 23 15 9 6 1.5
6.0 | 177 112 71 45 28 18 11 7 1.8
8.0 | 240 149 94 59 37 24 15 9 2.4
10 | 300 186 118 74 47 30 19 12 3
15 | 440 280 176 111 70 44 28 18 4
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
| CO2 milligrams/liter
---------------------------------------------------------------------------

As you can see if the pH was7.4 and the Alk/dKH was 6, the CO2 would be 7mg / l

Boomer


Want to talk chemistry ? The Reef Chemistry Forum
http://www.reefcentral.com/vbulletin/index.php

Want to See More ?
Please Join Our Growing Membership
www.coralrealm.com

If You See Me Running You Better Catch-Up

[Boomer]

"What you just said is very interestig, because in many recipes for getting
rid of GHA there is a note to rise the alk"

Yes, as increasing the Alk will pull Ca out of solution. In other words, if the Ca is to
high and you need to get it down, raise the Alk. Getting;

Calcium + Alk or Ca++ + CO3-- = CaCO3 ( Calcite sold, which settles to bottom or just
floats around as a precip of CaCO3 )

--
Boomer

Want to talk chemistry ? The Reef Chemistry Forum
http://www.reefcentral.com/vbulletin/index.php

Want to See More ?
Please Join Our Growing Membership
www.coralrealm.com

If You See Me Running You Better Catch-Up
"Pszemol" > wrote in message ...
: What you just said is very interestig, because in many recipes for getting
: rid of GHA there is a note to rise the alk. Acording to what you said, alk.
: is lowered by the photosynthesis activity as algae is using CO3--, HCO3-.
: So if I try to rise alkalinity by dropping Baking Soda I am feeding my
: green hair ALGAE I try to get rid of!! Am I missing something here??
:
: "Boomer" > wrote in message
...
: > ". If you have alot
: > of algae say for instance, they could starve the tank of CO2 possibly, if
: > you have poor circulation, causing co2 to drop, causing ph to raise, causing"
: >
: > Yes, this can happen but it is not very common, except in Planted Marco Algae Tanks.
CO2
: > in seawater is low to begin with.What really cause this problem is the plants using
the
: > little CO2 there is and then feeding off the CO3 and HCO3, carbonates and
bicarbonates,
: > converting them to CO2 which raise the pH, which if there is enough will lower the
Alk.
: > Circulation is usually not an issue, as circulation usually removes CO2 from the
system.
: > Poor circulation will cause the CO2 to increase/build in most cases, followed by a pH
: > drop. You can prove this with a glass of water and some pH indicator. Dr.Randy Holmes
: > Farley calls it the "Boomer Glass Trick"
: > --
: > Boomer
: >
: > Want to talk chemistry ? The Reef Chemistry Forum
: > http://www.reefcentral.com/vbulletin/index.php
: >
: > Want to See More ?
: > Please Join Our Growing Membership
: > www.coralrealm.com
: >
: > If You See Me Running You Better Catch-Up
: