Looking at first reef tank

[mytoysdammit]

I've had freshwater tanks for years including raising discus. I'm pretty
comfortable "fiddling" to keep critters happy. I'd like to set up a smallish
reef tank.

I have the opportunity to pick up a 40 gallon acrylic display tank with the
powercompact lighting system, timer, protein skimmer in sump, hookups, etc.

What I'm looking at is a live-rock/live-sand system with some hardy and
attractive critters and corals, some little critters to handle sand sifting
duties, and perhaps one or two small, reef friendly fish.

I don't want to mess with wild caught corals, or anything that is really
cool looking but cannot be kept happy in an aquarium without a lot of
expertise: I'm not interested in killing anemones or other critters due to
inexperience. I know that a lot of the soft corals can be propagated like
plants by taking "cuttings".

I'm one of those people who can give myself a migraine staring into a reef
tank with my nose pressed against the glass or acrylic--the whole community
just fascinates me.

I tend to keep my house very cool but I'm concerned about temp control. I
know I can stick an immersable heater in the sump with the skimmer, but I'm
actually more worried about things getting too warm.

For critters in addition to the janitorial crew I'm thinking of 1 or 2
shrimp. For fish the LFS I spoke with today recommended either a couple of
clown fish or a tang. I'm a bit concerned about that because I've seen some
seriously large clowns and tangs--not the sort of thing it seems to me would
be happy in such a small volume of water. Tangs are pretty obviously
designed to tweezer up little edible bits from rock and coral, but the size
concerns me. They are attractive fish, though.

Any advise would be appreciated.

'kat

[Mort]

"mytoysdammit" > wrote in message
hlink.net...
> I've had freshwater tanks for years including raising discus. I'm pretty
> comfortable "fiddling" to keep critters happy. I'd like to set up a
smallish
> reef tank.
>

Congratulations on your decision =)



> I have the opportunity to pick up a 40 gallon acrylic display tank with
the
> powercompact lighting system, timer, protein skimmer in sump, hookups,
etc.
>
> What I'm looking at is a live-rock/live-sand system with some hardy and
> attractive critters and corals, some little critters to handle sand
sifting
> duties, and perhaps one or two small, reef friendly fish.
>
> I don't want to mess with wild caught corals, or anything that is really
> cool looking but cannot be kept happy in an aquarium without a lot of
> expertise: I'm not interested in killing anemones or other critters due to
> inexperience.

Good to hear! Most people would just dive in but research and patience are
very important with a reef. (something I am constantly reminding myself of)



>I know that a lot of the soft corals can be propagated like
> plants by taking "cuttings".
>


More commonly referred to as "frags"


> I'm one of those people who can give myself a migraine staring into a reef
> tank with my nose pressed against the glass or acrylic--the whole
community
> just fascinates me.
>

Right on! I'm/we're right there with ya!



> I tend to keep my house very cool but I'm concerned about temp control. I
> know I can stick an immersable heater in the sump with the skimmer, but
I'm
> actually more worried about things getting too warm.
>

I have 260W of PC on my 75 and so far I have no problems.
You shouldn't run in to anything an extra fan or two wouldn't solve.


> For critters in addition to the janitorial crew I'm thinking of 1 or 2
> shrimp. For fish the LFS I spoke with today recommended either a couple of
> clown fish or a tang. I'm a bit concerned about that because I've seen
some
> seriously large clowns and tangs--not the sort of thing it seems to me
would
> be happy in such a small volume of water.


Some clowns are larger than others. Your basic Percula Clown (Nemo) should
be fine in a tank that size. However, tangs should NOT be considered for a
tank that size. It is recommended that they have a minimum of 48" length
wise to swim as the like to make fast dashes.
And yes, tangs will get big.


>Tangs are pretty obviously
> designed to tweezer up little edible bits from rock and coral, but the
size
> concerns me. They are attractive fish, though.
>
> Any advise would be appreciated.
>
> 'kat
>
>


What is the wattage of your fixture and what are the dimensions of the tank?

~Mort

[mytoysdammit]

"Mort" > wrote in message
y.com...
>
> "mytoysdammit" > wrote in message
> hlink.net...
> > I've had freshwater tanks for years including raising discus. I'm pretty
> > comfortable "fiddling" to keep critters happy. I'd like to set up a
> smallish
> > reef tank.
> >
>
> Congratulations on your decision =)
>
>
>
> > I have the opportunity to pick up a 40 gallon acrylic display tank with
> the
> > powercompact lighting system, timer, protein skimmer in sump, hookups,
> etc.
> >
> > What I'm looking at is a live-rock/live-sand system with some hardy and
> > attractive critters and corals, some little critters to handle sand
> sifting
> > duties, and perhaps one or two small, reef friendly fish.
> >
> > I don't want to mess with wild caught corals, or anything that is really
> > cool looking but cannot be kept happy in an aquarium without a lot of
> > expertise: I'm not interested in killing anemones or other critters due
to
> > inexperience.
>
> Good to hear! Most people would just dive in but research and patience
are
> very important with a reef. (something I am constantly reminding myself
of)
>
>
>
> >I know that a lot of the soft corals can be propagated like
> > plants by taking "cuttings".
> >
>
>
> More commonly referred to as "frags"
>
>
> > I'm one of those people who can give myself a migraine staring into a
reef
> > tank with my nose pressed against the glass or acrylic--the whole
> community
> > just fascinates me.
> >
>
> Right on! I'm/we're right there with ya!
>
>
>
> > I tend to keep my house very cool but I'm concerned about temp control.
I
> > know I can stick an immersable heater in the sump with the skimmer, but
> I'm
> > actually more worried about things getting too warm.
> >
>
> I have 260W of PC on my 75 and so far I have no problems.
> You shouldn't run in to anything an extra fan or two wouldn't solve.
>
>
> > For critters in addition to the janitorial crew I'm thinking of 1 or 2
> > shrimp. For fish the LFS I spoke with today recommended either a couple
of
> > clown fish or a tang. I'm a bit concerned about that because I've seen
> some
> > seriously large clowns and tangs--not the sort of thing it seems to me
> would
> > be happy in such a small volume of water.
>
>
> Some clowns are larger than others. Your basic Percula Clown (Nemo)
should
> be fine in a tank that size. However, tangs should NOT be considered for
a
> tank that size. It is recommended that they have a minimum of 48" length
> wise to swim as the like to make fast dashes.
> And yes, tangs will get big.
>
>
> >Tangs are pretty obviously
> > designed to tweezer up little edible bits from rock and coral, but the
> size
> > concerns me. They are attractive fish, though.
> >
> > Any advise would be appreciated.
> >
> > 'kat
> >
> >
>
>
> What is the wattage of your fixture and what are the dimensions of the
tank?
>
> ~Mort
I think the wattage for the lights is 250 x 2...they are compact lights with
both blue (moonlight?) and white lights. The lights look awfully **blink**
actinic to me. The tank I will have to measure as it is 37 gallons
approximately in terms of critter space, plus a sump on the back and rather
high. From an Amazon cichlid POV it would've made a lovely display tank for
a breeding pair of angelfish, if that helps<g>

It's rather confusing as my late father was a major 'fish-o-phile' and he
ran a lot of stuff with 50 year old technology: one of those guys who
actually went to South America and collected fish. He had "berlin"
freshwater amazon tanks with plants, detritus beds, fish, etc.

My concern about this is above all that I don't want to kill 'animals' for
the pleasure of having them, if that makes sense. It seems a lot of LFS that
carry sal****er critters have a lot of critters that are pretty hard to
maintain; such as seahorses, anemones, pipefishes, some gobies, etc.

I don't want to do that. I have friends with hundreds of tanks total that
have my sword plants in them. I have friends who have black and altum
angelfish 15 generations from the ones my dad started me out with.

I can no longer maintain the huge Amazon tanks. I've long been fascinated
with the reef tanks but just as it is important to keep my 4 cats and dog
happy and healthy, it is just as important to keep the reef-critters happy
and healthy.

'kat

[Mort]

"mytoysdammit" > wrote in message
hlink.net...
>
> "Mort" > wrote in message
> y.com...
> >
> > "mytoysdammit" > wrote in message
> > hlink.net...
> > > I've had freshwater tanks for years including raising discus. I'm
pretty
> > > comfortable "fiddling" to keep critters happy. I'd like to set up a
> > smallish
> > > reef tank.
> > >
> >
> > Congratulations on your decision =)
> >
> >
> >
> > > I have the opportunity to pick up a 40 gallon acrylic display tank
with
> > the
> > > powercompact lighting system, timer, protein skimmer in sump, hookups,
> > etc.
> > >
> > > What I'm looking at is a live-rock/live-sand system with some hardy
and
> > > attractive critters and corals, some little critters to handle sand
> > sifting
> > > duties, and perhaps one or two small, reef friendly fish.
> > >
> > > I don't want to mess with wild caught corals, or anything that is
really
> > > cool looking but cannot be kept happy in an aquarium without a lot of
> > > expertise: I'm not interested in killing anemones or other critters
due
> to
> > > inexperience.
> >
> > Good to hear! Most people would just dive in but research and patience
> are
> > very important with a reef. (something I am constantly reminding myself
> of)
> >
> >
> >
> > >I know that a lot of the soft corals can be propagated like
> > > plants by taking "cuttings".
> > >
> >
> >
> > More commonly referred to as "frags"
> >
> >
> > > I'm one of those people who can give myself a migraine staring into a
> reef
> > > tank with my nose pressed against the glass or acrylic--the whole
> > community
> > > just fascinates me.
> > >
> >
> > Right on! I'm/we're right there with ya!
> >
> >
> >
> > > I tend to keep my house very cool but I'm concerned about temp
control.
> I
> > > know I can stick an immersable heater in the sump with the skimmer,
but
> > I'm
> > > actually more worried about things getting too warm.
> > >
> >
> > I have 260W of PC on my 75 and so far I have no problems.
> > You shouldn't run in to anything an extra fan or two wouldn't solve.
> >
> >
> > > For critters in addition to the janitorial crew I'm thinking of 1 or 2
> > > shrimp. For fish the LFS I spoke with today recommended either a
couple
> of
> > > clown fish or a tang. I'm a bit concerned about that because I've seen
> > some
> > > seriously large clowns and tangs--not the sort of thing it seems to me
> > would
> > > be happy in such a small volume of water.
> >
> >
> > Some clowns are larger than others. Your basic Percula Clown (Nemo)
> should
> > be fine in a tank that size. However, tangs should NOT be considered
for
> a
> > tank that size. It is recommended that they have a minimum of 48"
length
> > wise to swim as the like to make fast dashes.
> > And yes, tangs will get big.
> >
> >
> > >Tangs are pretty obviously
> > > designed to tweezer up little edible bits from rock and coral, but the
> > size
> > > concerns me. They are attractive fish, though.
> > >
> > > Any advise would be appreciated.
> > >
> > > 'kat
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > What is the wattage of your fixture and what are the dimensions of the
> tank?
> >
> > ~Mort
> I think the wattage for the lights is 250 x 2...they are compact lights
with
> both blue (moonlight?) and white lights. The lights look awfully **blink**
> actinic to me. The tank I will have to measure as it is 37 gallons
> approximately in terms of critter space, plus a sump on the back and
rather
> high. From an Amazon cichlid POV it would've made a lovely display tank
for
> a breeding pair of angelfish, if that helps<g>
>
> It's rather confusing as my late father was a major 'fish-o-phile' and he
> ran a lot of stuff with 50 year old technology: one of those guys who
> actually went to South America and collected fish. He had "berlin"
> freshwater amazon tanks with plants, detritus beds, fish, etc.
>
> My concern about this is above all that I don't want to kill 'animals' for
> the pleasure of having them, if that makes sense. It seems a lot of LFS
that
> carry sal****er critters have a lot of critters that are pretty hard to
> maintain; such as seahorses, anemones, pipefishes, some gobies, etc.
>
> I don't want to do that. I have friends with hundreds of tanks total that
> have my sword plants in them. I have friends who have black and altum
> angelfish 15 generations from the ones my dad started me out with.
>
> I can no longer maintain the huge Amazon tanks. I've long been fascinated
> with the reef tanks but just as it is important to keep my 4 cats and dog
> happy and healthy, it is just as important to keep the reef-critters happy
> and healthy.
>
> 'kat
>
>

Shameles Plug: I could use some sword plants for my 29g hex next time you
do some clipping =)
The Java Ferns and Anubius Nana are getting lonely =)


As far as keeping the reef critters happy, it is great that you have that
outlook. The wattage on the lights *sounds* a bit high but it is entirely
possible.

Is that setup running as a reef now (if so, how long) or would you be
starting it from scratch?

~Mort

[mytoysdammit]

"Mort" > wrote in message
y.com...
>
> "mytoysdammit" > wrote in message
> >
> >
>
> Shameles Plug: I could use some sword plants for my 29g hex next time you
> do some clipping =)
> The Java Ferns and Anubius Nana are getting lonely =)
>
>
> As far as keeping the reef critters happy, it is great that you have that
> outlook. The wattage on the lights *sounds* a bit high but it is entirely
> possible.
>
> Is that setup running as a reef now (if so, how long) or would you be
> starting it from scratch?
>
> ~Mort
>
It would be pretty much setting up from scratch. The lights currently are 2
white light bulbs and 2 blue light bulbs so there would be some flexibility
there.

I am getting some bit of functioning live rock and some live sand out of it,
but will have to get some cycling help from some "reefer"<g> friends who are
willing to chip in a pound or two here or there. The tank was last used as a
'fish with live-rock' deal...by me too many big fish for a balanced system
but major filtration, etc.

I think I can wire in a timer on the lights so the reef can get sort of a
"dawn and dusk" effect with the blue lights, and then daylight in between
with the "white" lights

There is a place not far from Springfield, IL that has gorgeous live rock (I
think they raise and cure their own, actually) and I can head out there with
a big cooler and pick up more rock.

I have a local LFS that has gorgeous cured live fiji rock that is full of
coral-like stuff (think lichen in a marine setup), and lots of little worms
and other critters, but at nearly 8 dollars a pound...well...

I'd suspect that a lot of the soft corals and whatnot would be very light
sensitive in terms of reproduction and feeding.

I'm not sure about feeding the corals and worms and stuff. It seems that the
general idea is that they can live on "pickings" in a reef tank.

OTOH, I wonder if there isn't a salt water equivalent of "water fleas" that
they'd like.

[mytoysdammit]

>
> I have the opportunity to pick up a 40 gallon acrylic display tank with
the
> powercompact lighting system, timer, protein skimmer in sump, hookups,
etc.
>
I'm going to go for this but it will be rather boring for a good bit unless
you like squinting at live-rock beasties. I'm told one can cycle only with
the live rock and sand which is good as I used to short cycle my Amazon
tanks with gravel, sand, and rocks, and a little bit of dead fish
goodies...worked very well, but stunk up the first floor of the house
something fierce.

I still have some "live gravel" going from the freshwater tanks which I'd
used as an inoculum for starting new tanks.

Out of curiosity; could I use this in a salt tank?

[Chris Taylor]

"""I'm going to go for this but it will be rather boring for a good bit
unless you like squinting at live-rock beasties. """

You'd be surprised at the stuff that comes with live rock.

"""I'm told one can cycle only with the live rock and sand"""
Not true; you can set the tank up without these, a dose of your LFS water
only (and a bit of his coral sand in my case) is enough to start the cycle
off. Some in this group advocate throwing a couple of dead prawns into the
tank and leaving it to rot, this should work well (although you'll probably
end up with that smell again). A couple of older manuals advised that a
hardy fish (damsel) could be placed in the tank and used to cycle. I
couldn't put an animal through ammonia and nitrite polluted conditions for
three or four weeks though.

Good luck with the tank

Chris

"mytoysdammit" > wrote in message
hlink.net...
>
> >
> > I have the opportunity to pick up a 40 gallon acrylic display tank with
> the
> > powercompact lighting system, timer, protein skimmer in sump, hookups,
> etc.
> >
> I'm going to go for this but it will be rather boring for a good bit
unless
> you like squinting at live-rock beasties. I'm told one can cycle only with
> the live rock and sand which is good as I used to short cycle my Amazon
> tanks with gravel, sand, and rocks, and a little bit of dead fish
> goodies...worked very well, but stunk up the first floor of the house
> something fierce.
>
> I still have some "live gravel" going from the freshwater tanks which I'd
> used as an inoculum for starting new tanks.
>
> Out of curiosity; could I use this in a salt tank?
>
>

[mytoysdammit]

"mytoysdammit" > wrote in message
hlink.net...
> I've had freshwater tanks for years including raising discus. I'm pretty
> comfortable "fiddling" to keep critters happy. I'd like to set up a
smallish
> reef tank.

Thanks for all the advice and support. I'm still sort of planning things
here in terms of wiring, placement, etc. I'm going to have to drag out the
old battery pack backup that I used on the discus tank for the reef. It
won't run lights but it will keep filtration running. The battery gives me
an hour or so and most outages don't last any longer here in Chicago. Either
that or I need a small generator of some sort with an automatic cut-over.

I'm also burning up the DSL "oil" trying to figure out how to build a happy
community and get a handle on the microbiology and ecology of a reef tank.
Does anyone have any references on the biochemistry of corals and their
symbiotic algae? I know where the light comes from but I'm not sure where
the carbon input comes from.

I'm also a bit confused on tank additives: using RO (our water here is
practically liquid limestone) and setting the water a bit alkaline with
appropriate amounts of calcium for them as needs it for skeleton
building...what else other than buffering would you need to add?

I thought tailoring water for the Amazon crew was a bear, but that was
making hard tap water suitable for beings that liked soft and acidic water
(:filtering over peat, etc). I understand the RO for the reef animals
because there is so much other crud in our water, but looking in LFS it
looks like one could lose their minds trying to get the water right. I do
realize that this is a closed system not a corner of the ocean.

TIA,
'kat

[mytoysdammit]

"mytoysdammit" > wrote in message
ink.net...
>
> "mytoysdammit" > wrote in message
> news:buXrb.22565$> I'm also burning up the DSL "oil" trying to figure out
how to build a happy
> community and get a handle on the microbiology and ecology of a reef tank.
> Does anyone have any references on the biochemistry of corals and their
> symbiotic algae? I know where the light comes from but I'm not sure where
> the carbon input comes from.
>
I will not cycle a fish tank with live fish, even in freshwater. It's just
cruel to put the fish through it. Plus in freshwater, the fish that are most
likely to survive stewing in their own waste for a month or two are fish
that do NOT make good community residents, like tiger barbs. Then you wind
up with very tough fish that need a home somewhere else. I've seen damsels
recommended for cycling salt tanks and from what I've seen of damsels'
tendency to appropriate all the real estate for themselves, they're not a
good idea either. I'd think they'd object violently to anything else

I'm wondering about saving the money, going with uncured rock, curing it the
'fish bathtub' in the basement and just waiting longer for the cycle. I
could chuck in a standpipe and a couple of powerheads to keep things moving.

I think my LFS will give me a bit of sand as I gave him some when he first
opened and was starting freshwater tanks