Well I knew I'm jinxed with Rams

[Gill Passman]

Hi All,
Bought 3 Dutch Rams for the 15gall I've just set up (seeded and
ammonia/nitrites at 0). Got 1 Male and 2 Females (LFS sells them as
singles or 3's). One of the females bonded instantly with the male. The
other female curled up and died today (bought them Wednesday).

Is this just one of those things that the fish already had from the LFS?
Is it cichlid nastiness - with the bonded pair picking on the outsider
already stressed by the move? (the other female was nipping at her
although there was no sign of injury on the body)...or is it something
more sinister that I should watch for on the other fish? Or am I just
jinxed with Dutch Rams?

The other two appear to be just fine and a total love match...

Any comments appreciated

Gill

Gill

[NetMax]

"Gill Passman" > wrote in message
.. .
> Hi All,
> Bought 3 Dutch Rams for the 15gall I've just set up (seeded and
> ammonia/nitrites at 0). Got 1 Male and 2 Females (LFS sells them as
> singles or 3's). One of the females bonded instantly with the male. The
> other female curled up and died today (bought them Wednesday).
>
> Is this just one of those things that the fish already had from the LFS?
> Is it cichlid nastiness - with the bonded pair picking on the outsider
> already stressed by the move? (the other female was nipping at her
> although there was no sign of injury on the body)...or is it something
> more sinister that I should watch for on the other fish? Or am I just
> jinxed with Dutch Rams?
>
> The other two appear to be just fine and a total love match...
>
> Any comments appreciated
>
> Gill


Re: jinxed with certain fish.

Even when I was in the trade with access to international vendors and
commercial grade equipment and medications, I still felt jinxed with certain
fish. I lost Angelfish, Clown loaches, Tiger barbs, Bala sharks, Weather
loaches, Monos and lots of Rams.

You get to a point where you know that it's not you or your tanks, but the
quality of the stock. Eventually I found suppliers with very good Angels
and Tiger barbs. Balas, Clowns, Monos and Dojos were still a little
seasonal and still a bit of hit & miss, but some suppliers had better
records than others. Rams were more miss than hit, and I went through
almost every supplier I had. Even finding a good supplier is no guarantee
as their source of supply can vary, and where you live affects fish
transport seasonally (summer transport is hard on Goldfish & Dojos as winter
transport is hard on Discus, tetras & apistos when you live in Canada).

Bottom line, fragile fish (Rams) + poor stock = frustration. Eventually
you'll hit upon quality specimens.
--
www.NetMax.tk

[Gill Passman]

NetMax wrote:
> "Gill Passman" > wrote in message
> .. .
>
>>Hi All,
>>Bought 3 Dutch Rams for the 15gall I've just set up (seeded and
>>ammonia/nitrites at 0). Got 1 Male and 2 Females (LFS sells them as
>>singles or 3's). One of the females bonded instantly with the male. The
>>other female curled up and died today (bought them Wednesday).
>>
>>Is this just one of those things that the fish already had from the LFS?
>>Is it cichlid nastiness - with the bonded pair picking on the outsider
>>already stressed by the move? (the other female was nipping at her
>>although there was no sign of injury on the body)...or is it something
>>more sinister that I should watch for on the other fish? Or am I just
>>jinxed with Dutch Rams?
>>
>>The other two appear to be just fine and a total love match...
>>
>>Any comments appreciated
>>
>>Gill
>
>
>
> Re: jinxed with certain fish.
>
> Even when I was in the trade with access to international vendors and
> commercial grade equipment and medications, I still felt jinxed with certain
> fish. I lost Angelfish, Clown loaches, Tiger barbs, Bala sharks, Weather
> loaches, Monos and lots of Rams.
>
> You get to a point where you know that it's not you or your tanks, but the
> quality of the stock. Eventually I found suppliers with very good Angels
> and Tiger barbs. Balas, Clowns, Monos and Dojos were still a little
> seasonal and still a bit of hit & miss, but some suppliers had better
> records than others. Rams were more miss than hit, and I went through
> almost every supplier I had. Even finding a good supplier is no guarantee
> as their source of supply can vary, and where you live affects fish
> transport seasonally (summer transport is hard on Goldfish & Dojos as winter
> transport is hard on Discus, tetras & apistos when you live in Canada).
>
> Bottom line, fragile fish (Rams) + poor stock = frustration. Eventually
> you'll hit upon quality specimens.

The remaining two Rams seem to be doing OK now...Male/female swim
together and seem to have bonded....but are now attacking the Dwarf
Gourami pair....someone suggested Angels are the only peaceful cichlids
- still not sure that I don't believe cichlid = agression and there are
certain degrees...on the greater scale of things the Rams are not a
patch on the Mbunas.

Right now I think I'm having a harder time with Clowns...latest 3 (have
had them 4 weeks) now have Ich (pretty sure it came in with some Neons -
probably the ones that were in with the last batch that died with Ich
even though I Qt'd and treated for 3 weeks plus)....sometimes you reach
the point were you feel despair - but then you hatch a new plan - latest
is trying to upgrade the main Community tank to at least 400L....but
then if I can't buy the healthy fish where is the point????

I'm not giving up....just on a low...

Gill

[NetMax]

"Gill Passman" > wrote in message
.. .
> NetMax wrote:
>> "Gill Passman" > wrote in message
>> .. .
>>
>>>Hi All,
>>>Bought 3 Dutch Rams for the 15gall I've just set up (seeded and
>>>ammonia/nitrites at 0). Got 1 Male and 2 Females (LFS sells them as
>>>singles or 3's). One of the females bonded instantly with the male. The
>>>other female curled up and died today (bought them Wednesday).
>>>
>>>Is this just one of those things that the fish already had from the LFS?
>>>Is it cichlid nastiness - with the bonded pair picking on the outsider
>>>already stressed by the move? (the other female was nipping at her
>>>although there was no sign of injury on the body)...or is it something
>>>more sinister that I should watch for on the other fish? Or am I just
>>>jinxed with Dutch Rams?
>>>
>>>The other two appear to be just fine and a total love match...
>>>
>>>Any comments appreciated
>>>
>>>Gill
>>
>>
>>
>> Re: jinxed with certain fish.
>>
>> Even when I was in the trade with access to international vendors and
>> commercial grade equipment and medications, I still felt jinxed with
>> certain fish. I lost Angelfish, Clown loaches, Tiger barbs, Bala sharks,
>> Weather loaches, Monos and lots of Rams.
>>
>> You get to a point where you know that it's not you or your tanks, but
>> the quality of the stock. Eventually I found suppliers with very good
>> Angels and Tiger barbs. Balas, Clowns, Monos and Dojos were still a
>> little seasonal and still a bit of hit & miss, but some suppliers had
>> better records than others. Rams were more miss than hit, and I went
>> through almost every supplier I had. Even finding a good supplier is no
>> guarantee as their source of supply can vary, and where you live affects
>> fish transport seasonally (summer transport is hard on Goldfish & Dojos
>> as winter transport is hard on Discus, tetras & apistos when you live in
>> Canada).
>>
>> Bottom line, fragile fish (Rams) + poor stock = frustration. Eventually
>> you'll hit upon quality specimens.
>
> The remaining two Rams seem to be doing OK now...Male/female swim together
> and seem to have bonded....but are now attacking the Dwarf Gourami
> pair....someone suggested Angels are the only peaceful cichlids - still
> not sure that I don't believe cichlid = agression and there are certain
> degrees...on the greater scale of things the Rams are not a patch on the
> Mbunas.
>
> Right now I think I'm having a harder time with Clowns...latest 3 (have
> had them 4 weeks) now have Ich (pretty sure it came in with some Neons -
> probably the ones that were in with the last batch that died with Ich even
> though I Qt'd and treated for 3 weeks plus)....sometimes you reach the
> point were you feel despair - but then you hatch a new plan - latest is
> trying to upgrade the main Community tank to at least 400L....but then if
> I can't buy the healthy fish where is the point????
>
> I'm not giving up....just on a low...
>
> Gill

Honestly, I hate to have only one aquarium up & running. I need to have at
least 2 (and the first two must share water conditions). I find it gets
much easier with multiple tanks. Set a tank up in the basement, away from
traffic. Buy the fish you want and dump them in there with an established
filter. No gravel, no bright lights, no ornaments, just an automatic feeder
(or your twice daily visit), heater & filter. This is the quarantine, and
then forget about it (except for feeding ;~).

As soon as you stop buying fish, and have enough to give away or trade,
you'll find that you cannot kill them. Trust me. I have not had a case of
Ich at home in 20 years. If I don't include Guppies, I haven't had a fish
die since 2003 (losing 1 or 2 a year might be average). However, as soon as
I add stuff (fish, plants, snails, frogs, clams, shrimps, crayfish, crabs
etc), then the game changes back to the 'wait & see'. Who brought what with
them, who won't adjust to my water/food/tankmates etc.

As general advice, figure out what you want your total population to be, buy
them all (using your main tank as a quarantine) and then keep your hands out
of it for 3 months (except for maintenance). People who fiddle in their
tanks every week, adding a new fish or plant or something make me bonkers
*climbing off soapbox*.

If you are trying to add Clowns to an existing community tank, I would put
them by themselves in another tank for a couple of months (3 is better) and
then add them to your main tank *IF* you have not added anything to your
main tank for a couple of months. With multiple tanks, you can always be
staging fish around like that. I sometimes time it to their growth rate
(I'll put these here until they outgrow this tank, which will be in about
3-4 months, so that takes care of the quarantine).

This has worked for me, but I feel your pain. Clowns are very frustrating.
I had a hobbyist come in almost in tears because she lost all her Clowns
(they were several years old). This lady was an experienced Ancistrus
breeder, so I was expecting to hear that she had an equipment failure of
some kind. She had added one new Clown loach from a pet shop and wiped them
all out. She is very experienced, she saw the Clown she was buying was
coming from a healthy tank and the fish looked good, so she skipped
quarantine. The trouble with doing everything right and having everything
work well is that you get complacent and it comes back to bite you in the
you know where ;~).

Just so you don't get the wrong impression, I don't always quarantine
either, but when I do, it's for months at home, and at work, I would stage
the tanks, so sometimes I would have two tanks of the same fish, but they
came in from different suppliers or dates.

In regards to your current Clowns, I'd be tempted to move them for separate
treatment. Don't worry about the Ich on the other fish unless you see
symptoms which persevere. Whenever I would get an Oscar donation to the
store, I would put him in with the other Oscars and 9 times out of 10, he
would get covered with Ich (store low-grade Ich plus new stressed fish plus
weak immune system = Ich). The notable point was that this would be the
only fish with Ich, no other fish got it in the least bit. I would drop in
the traditional meds because an Ich covered fish is bad for business in my
Oscar show tank, but I knew that it would clear up by itself if I did
nothing, and I wasn't worried about the existing inhabitants. They had
passed my 3 month mark and were quite sturdy. This is Oscars though, and
while all fish become much less susceptible to Ich, Clowns are very late
getting to that point.
--
www.NetMax.tk

[Ross Vandegrift]

On 2005-09-20, NetMax > wrote:
> As soon as you stop buying fish, and have enough to give away or trade,
> you'll find that you cannot kill them. Trust me.

I have far, far less experience than NetMax here, but I do have to
agree. Once my tanks have reached a stable point, the fish just keep
doing their thing and I do mine. I had far more problems when I was
constantly changing the stock in my very first tank.

In fact, if you follow that guideline, you don't even have to know all
that much about keeping fish. My parents have one of my tanks at their
house. I set it up probably more than three years ago. For the entire
time, the inhabitants have been the original stock, with very few
additions [1].

My mother keeps the tank and doesn't know that much about fish keeping.
She knows when to feed and how much. But she's not great about water
changes. Despite that, there have been only a few deaths.

> I haven't had a fish die since 2003

That's utterly remarkable. My fish usually do really well, but it does
seem like every three to six months, I lose a fish. 2003 is a great
record NetMax!

> This has worked for me, but I feel your pain. Clowns are very frustrating.
[snip]
> This is Oscars though, and
> while all fish become much less susceptible to Ich, Clowns are very late
> getting to that point.

The only time I ever restocked my current tank was because of my clowns.
I had three clowns at the old apartment. The tank was fresh cycled and
up for its initial stock. Part of that was three clown loaches.
Immediately, I knew two of them weren't doing so hot. They didn't eat,
always seemed uncomfortable. They died before too long, and I ended up
replacing them so as not to have a lonely clown. The new guys were much
sturdier from the outset - NetMax's points about stock are spot on.



[1] Until I moved to a new apartment and needed to use it as an intermediate.
They gained my SAEs since I can't catch them, and I'm worried, since
it's the biggest change that tank has ever seen. Fortunately, they were
my fish, from my water, and I know exactly how healthy they are.

--
Ross Vandegrift

"The good Christian should beware of mathematicians, and all those who
make empty prophecies. The danger already exists that the mathematicians
have made a covenant with the devil to darken the spirit and to confine
man in the bonds of Hell."
--St. Augustine, De Genesi ad Litteram, Book II, xviii, 37

[NetMax]

"Ross Vandegrift" > wrote in message
...
> On 2005-09-20, NetMax > wrote:
>> As soon as you stop buying fish, and have enough to give away or trade,
>> you'll find that you cannot kill them. Trust me.
<snip>
>
>> I haven't had a fish die since 2003
>
> That's utterly remarkable. My fish usually do really well, but it does
> seem like every three to six months, I lose a fish. 2003 is a great
> record NetMax!


I feel obliged to point out that this 'record' is not with very fragile fish
(so it's not much of a record). I have a dozen Monos (I bought a dozen, so
this was good), a Yoyo, 2 Clowns (originally bought 3), a bushynose
(bulletproof) and about 60 Julies (bought 7 ;~). I don't think I've bought
a fish since 2003, because I need to set up more tanks (current occupants
want more room, not more tank-mates). I'm in hardwater, so I often have
mbuna and other cichlids, and these are long lived fish (in the right mix
;~). Usually my big cichlids outlive my interest by several years!

A 'great' record is for those who keep tetras, minnows, barbs, rasboras,
Bettas and ADFs for years. What was it that Elaine called it, "the right
level of neglect" is what is needed for longevity, and I have to agree
(because I don't do too much).
--
www.NetMax.tk

> --
> Ross Vandegrift

[Gill Passman]

NetMax wrote:
> "Gill Passman" > wrote in message
> .. .
>
>>NetMax wrote:
>>
>>>"Gill Passman" > wrote in message
.. .
>>>
>>>
>>>>Hi All,
>>>>Bought 3 Dutch Rams for the 15gall I've just set up (seeded and
>>>>ammonia/nitrites at 0). Got 1 Male and 2 Females (LFS sells them as
>>>>singles or 3's). One of the females bonded instantly with the male. The
>>>>other female curled up and died today (bought them Wednesday).
>>>>
>>>>Is this just one of those things that the fish already had from the LFS?
>>>>Is it cichlid nastiness - with the bonded pair picking on the outsider
>>>>already stressed by the move? (the other female was nipping at her
>>>>although there was no sign of injury on the body)...or is it something
>>>>more sinister that I should watch for on the other fish? Or am I just
>>>>jinxed with Dutch Rams?
>>>>
>>>>The other two appear to be just fine and a total love match...
>>>>
>>>>Any comments appreciated
>>>>
>>>>Gill
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>Re: jinxed with certain fish.
>>>
>>>Even when I was in the trade with access to international vendors and
>>>commercial grade equipment and medications, I still felt jinxed with
>>>certain fish. I lost Angelfish, Clown loaches, Tiger barbs, Bala sharks,
>>>Weather loaches, Monos and lots of Rams.
>>>
>>>You get to a point where you know that it's not you or your tanks, but
>>>the quality of the stock. Eventually I found suppliers with very good
>>>Angels and Tiger barbs. Balas, Clowns, Monos and Dojos were still a
>>>little seasonal and still a bit of hit & miss, but some suppliers had
>>>better records than others. Rams were more miss than hit, and I went
>>>through almost every supplier I had. Even finding a good supplier is no
>>>guarantee as their source of supply can vary, and where you live affects
>>>fish transport seasonally (summer transport is hard on Goldfish & Dojos
>>>as winter transport is hard on Discus, tetras & apistos when you live in
>>>Canada).
>>>
>>>Bottom line, fragile fish (Rams) + poor stock = frustration. Eventually
>>>you'll hit upon quality specimens.
>>
>>The remaining two Rams seem to be doing OK now...Male/female swim together
>>and seem to have bonded....but are now attacking the Dwarf Gourami
>>pair....someone suggested Angels are the only peaceful cichlids - still
>>not sure that I don't believe cichlid = agression and there are certain
>>degrees...on the greater scale of things the Rams are not a patch on the
>>Mbunas.
>>
>>Right now I think I'm having a harder time with Clowns...latest 3 (have
>>had them 4 weeks) now have Ich (pretty sure it came in with some Neons -
>>probably the ones that were in with the last batch that died with Ich even
>>though I Qt'd and treated for 3 weeks plus)....sometimes you reach the
>>point were you feel despair - but then you hatch a new plan - latest is
>>trying to upgrade the main Community tank to at least 400L....but then if
>>I can't buy the healthy fish where is the point????
>>
>>I'm not giving up....just on a low...
>>
>>Gill
>
>
> Honestly, I hate to have only one aquarium up & running. I need to have at
> least 2 (and the first two must share water conditions). I find it gets
> much easier with multiple tanks. Set a tank up in the basement, away from
> traffic. Buy the fish you want and dump them in there with an established
> filter. No gravel, no bright lights, no ornaments, just an automatic feeder
> (or your twice daily visit), heater & filter. This is the quarantine, and
> then forget about it (except for feeding ;~).
>
> As soon as you stop buying fish, and have enough to give away or trade,
> you'll find that you cannot kill them. Trust me. I have not had a case of
> Ich at home in 20 years. If I don't include Guppies, I haven't had a fish
> die since 2003 (losing 1 or 2 a year might be average). However, as soon as
> I add stuff (fish, plants, snails, frogs, clams, shrimps, crayfish, crabs
> etc), then the game changes back to the 'wait & see'. Who brought what with
> them, who won't adjust to my water/food/tankmates etc.
>
> As general advice, figure out what you want your total population to be, buy
> them all (using your main tank as a quarantine) and then keep your hands out
> of it for 3 months (except for maintenance). People who fiddle in their
> tanks every week, adding a new fish or plant or something make me bonkers
> *climbing off soapbox*.
>
> If you are trying to add Clowns to an existing community tank, I would put
> them by themselves in another tank for a couple of months (3 is better) and
> then add them to your main tank *IF* you have not added anything to your
> main tank for a couple of months. With multiple tanks, you can always be
> staging fish around like that. I sometimes time it to their growth rate
> (I'll put these here until they outgrow this tank, which will be in about
> 3-4 months, so that takes care of the quarantine).
>
> This has worked for me, but I feel your pain. Clowns are very frustrating.
> I had a hobbyist come in almost in tears because she lost all her Clowns
> (they were several years old). This lady was an experienced Ancistrus
> breeder, so I was expecting to hear that she had an equipment failure of
> some kind. She had added one new Clown loach from a pet shop and wiped them
> all out. She is very experienced, she saw the Clown she was buying was
> coming from a healthy tank and the fish looked good, so she skipped
> quarantine. The trouble with doing everything right and having everything
> work well is that you get complacent and it comes back to bite you in the
> you know where ;~).
>
> Just so you don't get the wrong impression, I don't always quarantine
> either, but when I do, it's for months at home, and at work, I would stage
> the tanks, so sometimes I would have two tanks of the same fish, but they
> came in from different suppliers or dates.
>
> In regards to your current Clowns, I'd be tempted to move them for separate
> treatment. Don't worry about the Ich on the other fish unless you see
> symptoms which persevere. Whenever I would get an Oscar donation to the
> store, I would put him in with the other Oscars and 9 times out of 10, he
> would get covered with Ich (store low-grade Ich plus new stressed fish plus
> weak immune system = Ich). The notable point was that this would be the
> only fish with Ich, no other fish got it in the least bit. I would drop in
> the traditional meds because an Ich covered fish is bad for business in my
> Oscar show tank, but I knew that it would clear up by itself if I did
> nothing, and I wasn't worried about the existing inhabitants. They had
> passed my 3 month mark and were quite sturdy. This is Oscars though, and
> while all fish become much less susceptible to Ich, Clowns are very late
> getting to that point.

The bad news is that I can't move the Clowns as I've done my back in -
couldn't walk at all yesterday (only managed to give them the Ich med -
had to supervise the feeding of the tanks)...bit better today (can sit
at the computer now for short periods). The good news is that the Clowns
only seem to have a mild attack of Ich and look healthy and are feeding
so I'm hopeful the meds will do the trick.

I've no plans to add anything more to this tank - if I do it will only
be a move from another of the tanks (unless I can persuade hubby on the
upgrade). The only reason I was adding plants/fish was because of the
post holiday decimation of the tank - prior to this there had been very
few additions/changes for months - I just had to replace my Clowns - I
understand how your customer felt having her troupe wiped out - even
though I have these new 3 I still miss my original 6 and don't think
anything would replace them. I guess it's like all pets you become
attached to - you just have to appreciate them for their different
personalities rather than trying to recreate the past. Saying that, one
thing I have to do is maintain a nice size school of Neon Tetras for
domestic reasons :-) and they are not the hardiest of fish although one
did survive the disaster.

I'm pleased to say that the remaining two Rams in the 15 gall are doing
well and are still paired up as are the Dwarf Gouramis. The rummy nosed
tetras are also doing well. There is no need to add anything further to
this tank either unless it is a "clean up" crew - it doesn't get too
much light and algae has never been a real problem with the location it
is in (used to be where I kept the betta who has now moved across the
kitchen). I'm hesitant to tempt fate if I have managed to get a healthy
pair of Rams so would certainly be dragging out the other 5 gall tank to
quarantine if I was going to add anything else (but really I can't see
any need at the moment apart from my fish addiction - lol).

Unfortunately I don't have a basement to hide a tank in so it has to be
in the main house where we are running out of locations. One problem I
find is that the temptation to convert the QT tank into a display tank
is quite great as it is in the main house - hubbie was amazed it went
back in it's box after housing the tetras.

Gill

[NetMax]

"Gill Passman" > wrote in message
.. .
> NetMax wrote:
>> "Gill Passman" > wrote in message
>> .. .
>>
>>>NetMax wrote:
>>>
>>>>"Gill Passman" > wrote in message
.. .
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>Hi All,
>>>>>Bought 3 Dutch Rams for the 15gall I've just set up (seeded and
>>>>>ammonia/nitrites at 0). Got 1 Male and 2 Females (LFS sells them as
>>>>>singles or 3's). One of the females bonded instantly with the male. The
>>>>>other female curled up and died today (bought them Wednesday).
>>>>>
>>>>>Is this just one of those things that the fish already had from the
>>>>>LFS? Is it cichlid nastiness - with the bonded pair picking on the
>>>>>outsider already stressed by the move? (the other female was nipping at
>>>>>her although there was no sign of injury on the body)...or is it
>>>>>something more sinister that I should watch for on the other fish? Or
>>>>>am I just jinxed with Dutch Rams?
>>>>>
>>>>>The other two appear to be just fine and a total love match...
>>>>>
>>>>>Any comments appreciated
>>>>>
>>>>>Gill
>>>>
<snip>
>>
>> In regards to your current Clowns, I'd be tempted to move them for
>> separate treatment. Don't worry about the Ich on the other fish unless
>> you see symptoms which persevere. Whenever I would get an Oscar donation
>> to the store, I would put him in with the other Oscars and 9 times out of
>> 10, he would get covered with Ich (store low-grade Ich plus new stressed
>> fish plus weak immune system = Ich). The notable point was that this
>> would be the only fish with Ich, no other fish got it in the least bit.
>> I would drop in the traditional meds because an Ich covered fish is bad
>> for business in my Oscar show tank, but I knew that it would clear up by
>> itself if I did nothing, and I wasn't worried about the existing
>> inhabitants. They had passed my 3 month mark and were quite sturdy.
>> This is Oscars though, and while all fish become much less susceptible to
>> Ich, Clowns are very late getting to that point.
>
> The bad news is that I can't move the Clowns as I've done my back in -
> couldn't walk at all yesterday (only managed to give them the Ich med -
> had to supervise the feeding of the tanks)...bit better today (can sit at
> the computer now for short periods). The good news is that the Clowns only
> seem to have a mild attack of Ich and look healthy and are feeding so I'm
> hopeful the meds will do the trick.

re: back, I know that feeling. Between my back and shoulder, it's a wonder
any tanks get water changes and maintenance. I'm really starting to ponder
an automatic water changer for the next tank, and some maintenance-free
filters.

> I've no plans to add anything more to this tank - if I do it will only be
> a move from another of the tanks (unless I can persuade hubby on the
> upgrade). The only reason I was adding plants/fish was because of the post
> holiday decimation of the tank - prior to this there had been very few
> additions/changes for months - I just had to replace my Clowns - I
> understand how your customer felt having her troupe wiped out - even
> though I have these new 3 I still miss my original 6 and don't think
> anything would replace them. I guess it's like all pets you become
> attached to - you just have to appreciate them for their different
> personalities rather than trying to recreate the past. Saying that, one
> thing I have to do is maintain a nice size school of Neon Tetras for
> domestic reasons :-) and they are not the hardiest of fish although one
> did survive the disaster.

Neons become surprising hardy in the right water after acclimation. Their
lower body mass makes them very suceptible to transport related shock, but
after acclimation, they are ok. If you have soft water (pH not critical
unless extreme) I find they become much more robust than in hard water. The
occasional black-water extract at reduced dosages sweetens their
environment, and they respond well to low-dose Melafix for occasional
external irritations.

> I'm pleased to say that the remaining two Rams in the 15 gall are doing
> well and are still paired up as are the Dwarf Gouramis. The rummy nosed
> tetras are also doing well. There is no need to add anything further to
> this tank either unless it is a "clean up" crew - it doesn't get too much
> light and algae has never been a real problem with the location it is in
> (used to be where I kept the betta who has now moved across the kitchen).
> I'm hesitant to tempt fate if I have managed to get a healthy pair of Rams
> so would certainly be dragging out the other 5 gall tank to quarantine if
> I was going to add anything else (but really I can't see any need at the
> moment apart from my fish addiction - lol).

The stuff you're seeing with the Rams sounds like the females establishing
pecking order. I think Apistos are best kept in harems (1M, 3F). With
enough hiding spots, they might sort it out to their satisfaction. Their
harrasing the Dwarfs suggests the tank is a bit small (the Rams perceive
their territory is vulnerable). They might also have picked a spawning site
in a bad location (middle of the tank?). I'd make a rockpile in a back
corner and then give them some clear substrate in front, and a
driftwood/vegetation canopy about 2-3 inches above. This gives them a line
of sight from the spawning site (while the fry are eggs) and spots to move
the wigglers around while being protected from predators from above. You
could as well give the Dwarfs some floating vegetation at the opposite end
of the tank. Bits of styrofoam, sponge or other floating material can be
held in place with a bit of string (nylon for permanence) and they might get
the idea and start ripping up your plants for a nest ;~).

> Unfortunately I don't have a basement to hide a tank in so it has to be in
> the main house where we are running out of locations. One problem I find
> is that the temptation to convert the QT tank into a display tank is quite
> great as it is in the main house - hubbie was amazed it went back in it's
> box after housing the tetras.
>
> Gill

A common complaint I hear, but for some reason, this doesn't affect me. I
always have empty tanks somewhere in the house, stacked inside each other.
Maybe my addiction is under control ;~). All I can suggest is to use a
non-ideal tank for your quarantine, such as a Rubbermaid container, which
you won't be tempted to keep using (drawback is visual inspection - maybe a
mirror would work?). I've often stacked tanks 2 high for space saving at
home (3 high at work), but now I'm migrated towards size instead of
multiplicity.

At work, we needed a balance between empty tanks (to sell) and filled tanks
(to sell fish and promote the hobby). I was always flooding more tanks
(setting empty tanks up with new fish), so the fish dept was slowly
expanding across the pet shop floor (displacing other depts). They did put
a stop to me (or at least slow me down ;~), but in the process I came to
realize that given enough space & resources, you cannot have too many tanks.
I was planning 1 or 2 tanks ahead all the time (so many fish, so many
biotopes). I flooded over a hundred tanks and could have easily set up
another 100, and there are many people with basement fish-rooms which would
put LFS to shame. My advice is to cut your teeth on many smaller tanks,
which lets you test the waters with many types of different fish quickly,
and then compress your hobby into a large community tank and 1 or 2
accessory tanks (isolation, quarantine, fry etc).

ps: Good luck with your back. What worked best and the longest for my back
was a new mattress (which is good because I have no discipline for
exercises). --
www.NetMax.tk

[Gill Passman]

<snip>

> Neons become surprising hardy in the right water after acclimation. Their
> lower body mass makes them very suceptible to transport related shock, but
> after acclimation, they are ok. If you have soft water (pH not critical
> unless extreme) I find they become much more robust than in hard water. The
> occasional black-water extract at reduced dosages sweetens their
> environment, and they respond well to low-dose Melafix for occasional
> external irritations.


My water is hard out of the tap but there is a lot of driftwood in the
tank in question - generally they seem to do quite well.


<snip>
>
> The stuff you're seeing with the Rams sounds like the females establishing
> pecking order. I think Apistos are best kept in harems (1M, 3F). With
> enough hiding spots, they might sort it out to their satisfaction. Their
> harrasing the Dwarfs suggests the tank is a bit small (the Rams perceive
> their territory is vulnerable). They might also have picked a spawning site
> in a bad location (middle of the tank?). I'd make a rockpile in a back
> corner and then give them some clear substrate in front, and a
> driftwood/vegetation canopy about 2-3 inches above. This gives them a line
> of sight from the spawning site (while the fry are eggs) and spots to move
> the wigglers around while being protected from predators from above. You
> could as well give the Dwarfs some floating vegetation at the opposite end
> of the tank. Bits of styrofoam, sponge or other floating material can be
> held in place with a bit of string (nylon for permanence) and they might get
> the idea and start ripping up your plants for a nest ;~).
>
I think the major bone of contention will be one corner of the tank
which is where the Dwarf made his first bubble nest - the rams are
eyeing this area up as well. Got enough room at the other end of the
tank to construct some sort of cave like you describe, maybe as the rams
are relatively new they might go for this. As they appear to have paired
up I'll hold off on additional females (as I have already lost one
female) and keep an eye out for any signs of the remaining female being
hassled too much - no sign of this at the moment. Plenty of vegetation
for the DGs if they decide to have another go at it...although his
bubble nest building skills would benefit from some structure

The other option is to set up a tank specifically for spawning purposes
if I seriously want to go do this

<snip>

>
> A common complaint I hear, but for some reason, this doesn't affect me. I
> always have empty tanks somewhere in the house, stacked inside each other.
> Maybe my addiction is under control ;~). All I can suggest is to use a
> non-ideal tank for your quarantine, such as a Rubbermaid container, which
> you won't be tempted to keep using (drawback is visual inspection - maybe a
> mirror would work?). I've often stacked tanks 2 high for space saving at
> home (3 high at work), but now I'm migrated towards size instead of
> multiplicity.
>
> At work, we needed a balance between empty tanks (to sell) and filled tanks
> (to sell fish and promote the hobby). I was always flooding more tanks
> (setting empty tanks up with new fish), so the fish dept was slowly
> expanding across the pet shop floor (displacing other depts). They did put
> a stop to me (or at least slow me down ;~), but in the process I came to
> realize that given enough space & resources, you cannot have too many tanks.
> I was planning 1 or 2 tanks ahead all the time (so many fish, so many
> biotopes). I flooded over a hundred tanks and could have easily set up
> another 100, and there are many people with basement fish-rooms which would
> put LFS to shame. My advice is to cut your teeth on many smaller tanks,
> which lets you test the waters with many types of different fish quickly,
> and then compress your hobby into a large community tank and 1 or 2
> accessory tanks (isolation, quarantine, fry etc).
>
> ps: Good luck with your back. What worked best and the longest for my back
> was a new mattress (which is good because I have no discipline for
> exercises). --
> www.NetMax.tk
>
>

Maybe all the time you had to indulge yourselve in the store has cured
you of MTS :-)

Thanks for the good wishes on the back...I'm sure it improved after a
long period of lying flat on our hard mattress....back to the quack
tomorrow...

Gill

[NetMax]

"Gill Passman" > wrote in message
.. .
>
>
>
>
> <snip>
>
> Maybe all the time you had to indulge yourselve in the store has cured you
> of MTS :-)
>
> Thanks for the good wishes on the back...I'm sure it improved after a long
> period of lying flat on our hard mattress....back to the quack tomorrow...
>
> Gill

lol on store as therapy, but I think it might have made it worse. Now I
have contacts in the trade who can get me the neatest fish.

Just a thought on altering the aquarium to shift the Rams. Putting a piece
of cardboard on a corner will often make that area more desirable. Foot
traffic and shadows can spook fish from spawning. Keep a little peep hole
in the cardboard to keep track of their activities.
--
www.NetMax.tk

[Gill Passman]

NetMax wrote:
> "Gill Passman" > wrote in message
> .. .
>
>>
>>
>>
>><snip>
>>
>>Maybe all the time you had to indulge yourselve in the store has cured you
>>of MTS :-)
>>
>>Thanks for the good wishes on the back...I'm sure it improved after a long
>>period of lying flat on our hard mattress....back to the quack tomorrow...
>>
>>Gill
>
>
> lol on store as therapy, but I think it might have made it worse. Now I
> have contacts in the trade who can get me the neatest fish.
>
> Just a thought on altering the aquarium to shift the Rams. Putting a piece
> of cardboard on a corner will often make that area more desirable. Foot
> traffic and shadows can spook fish from spawning. Keep a little peep hole
> in the cardboard to keep track of their activities.

I think the time has come to refer to them as R*ms - lol....I'm not very
happy with the female Ram....gill movement is quite rapid and
generally she is keeping to herself...she did come out to feed tonight
but not this morning...she is keeping to the back of the tank....she
varies between top and bottom and occassional middle of the tank with
the male....

Have checked the water ammonia is 0, nitrite is 0, nitrate is 0 (but
from the plant growth I'm not suprised) pH is 8....the only real cause
for concern is the pH - I watched the tank cycle so I know that is
complete...

No sign of any disease but her female companion did die around a week or
so ago...have had the fish around 2 1/2 weeks....not happy about the
gill movement...although it does resemble the Mbuna gill movement about
to become Mums - but from my research Rams aren't mouth brooders....

Any ideas would be gratefully appreciated...the male and the rest of the
fish in the tank are doing well and it is understocked for the size....

I would love to break the Ram jinx

Gill

[NetMax]

"Gill Passman" > wrote in message
.. .
> NetMax wrote:
>> "Gill Passman" > wrote in message
>> .. .
>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>><snip>
>>>
>>>Maybe all the time you had to indulge yourselve in the store has cured
>>>you of MTS :-)
>>>
>>>Thanks for the good wishes on the back...I'm sure it improved after a
>>>long period of lying flat on our hard mattress....back to the quack
>>>tomorrow...
>>>
>>>Gill
>>
>>
>> lol on store as therapy, but I think it might have made it worse. Now I
>> have contacts in the trade who can get me the neatest fish.
>>
>> Just a thought on altering the aquarium to shift the Rams. Putting a
>> piece of cardboard on a corner will often make that area more desirable.
>> Foot traffic and shadows can spook fish from spawning. Keep a little
>> peep hole in the cardboard to keep track of their activities.
>
> I think the time has come to refer to them as R*ms - lol....I'm not very
> happy with the female Ram....gill movement is quite rapid and generally
> she is keeping to herself...she did come out to feed tonight but not this
> morning...she is keeping to the back of the tank....she varies between top
> and bottom and occassional middle of the tank with the male....
>
> Have checked the water ammonia is 0, nitrite is 0, nitrate is 0 (but from
> the plant growth I'm not suprised) pH is 8....the only real cause for
> concern is the pH - I watched the tank cycle so I know that is complete...
>
> No sign of any disease but her female companion did die around a week or
> so ago...have had the fish around 2 1/2 weeks....not happy about the gill
> movement...although it does resemble the Mbuna gill movement about to
> become Mums - but from my research Rams aren't mouth brooders....
>
> Any ideas would be gratefully appreciated...the male and the rest of the
> fish in the tank are doing well and it is understocked for the size....
>
> I would love to break the Ram jinx
>
> Gill

A lone female might be being pursued too much by the male. Observation will
tell you if the source of the rapid respiration is stress from tankmates or
not. If not, then there is a problem which might not be environmental,
though with a pH of 8.0, it would be difficult to completely rule that out.
afaik, Rams come from the same regions as Discus, and do very well in the
warm acidic conditions associated with them. If these Rams are born/raised
in harder high pH water, then it could be a mute point, however, given their
fragility and sof****er preferences, breeders are more apt to spawn them in
acidic waters, I think.

Isolating her and dropping the water's pH and gH might give surprisingly
good results. I've found that if they don't like the pH, they tolerate it
till their tolerance is reached, and then they go dark, breath rapidly and
generally hang somewhere in the tank looking positively at death's door.
Lower the pH and they can turn around very quickly like nothing was ever
wrong. Just an idea (and hoping that it is nothing more serious).
--
www.NetMax.tk

[Gill Passman]

NetMax wrote:
> "Gill Passman" > wrote in message
> .. .
>
>>NetMax wrote:
>>
>>>"Gill Passman" > wrote in message
.. .
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>><snip>
>>>>
>>>>Maybe all the time you had to indulge yourselve in the store has cured
>>>>you of MTS :-)
>>>>
>>>>Thanks for the good wishes on the back...I'm sure it improved after a
>>>>long period of lying flat on our hard mattress....back to the quack
>>>>tomorrow...
>>>>
>>>>Gill
>>>
>>>
>>>lol on store as therapy, but I think it might have made it worse. Now I
>>>have contacts in the trade who can get me the neatest fish.
>>>
>>>Just a thought on altering the aquarium to shift the Rams. Putting a
>>>piece of cardboard on a corner will often make that area more desirable.
>>>Foot traffic and shadows can spook fish from spawning. Keep a little
>>>peep hole in the cardboard to keep track of their activities.
>>
>>I think the time has come to refer to them as R*ms - lol....I'm not very
>>happy with the female Ram....gill movement is quite rapid and generally
>>she is keeping to herself...she did come out to feed tonight but not this
>>morning...she is keeping to the back of the tank....she varies between top
>>and bottom and occassional middle of the tank with the male....
>>
>>Have checked the water ammonia is 0, nitrite is 0, nitrate is 0 (but from
>>the plant growth I'm not suprised) pH is 8....the only real cause for
>>concern is the pH - I watched the tank cycle so I know that is complete...
>>
>>No sign of any disease but her female companion did die around a week or
>>so ago...have had the fish around 2 1/2 weeks....not happy about the gill
>>movement...although it does resemble the Mbuna gill movement about to
>>become Mums - but from my research Rams aren't mouth brooders....
>>
>>Any ideas would be gratefully appreciated...the male and the rest of the
>>fish in the tank are doing well and it is understocked for the size....
>>
>>I would love to break the Ram jinx
>>
>>Gill
>
>
> A lone female might be being pursued too much by the male. Observation will
> tell you if the source of the rapid respiration is stress from tankmates or
> not. If not, then there is a problem which might not be environmental,
> though with a pH of 8.0, it would be difficult to completely rule that out.
> afaik, Rams come from the same regions as Discus, and do very well in the
> warm acidic conditions associated with them. If these Rams are born/raised
> in harder high pH water, then it could be a mute point, however, given their
> fragility and sof****er preferences, breeders are more apt to spawn them in
> acidic waters, I think.
>
> Isolating her and dropping the water's pH and gH might give surprisingly
> good results. I've found that if they don't like the pH, they tolerate it
> till their tolerance is reached, and then they go dark, breath rapidly and
> generally hang somewhere in the tank looking positively at death's door.
> Lower the pH and they can turn around very quickly like nothing was ever
> wrong. Just an idea (and hoping that it is nothing more serious).

She has lost her colour now and is hanging out at the bottom of the tank
at the front still with the rapid gill movement. pH is niggling at me
both from this and past experience although the LFS tell me they should
be fine at our pH. Done a quick check on the pH parameters for her tank
mates and in fact lowering the pH might be beneficial for them as well....

Can't buy any chemicals to do this until the morning and I'm not sure
that she will make it that long....only stuff in the house that is
acidic is lemon or vinegar (malt or white wine) and I'm not sure that I
would want to add that to the tank even if I did move her....

What methods would you suggest? or do you think I should risk waiting
another 12 hours until the shop opens and I can get something like pH
down or peat additives (which might not be quick enough)?

Thanks
Gill

[NetMax]

"Gill Passman" > wrote in message
.. .
> NetMax wrote:
>> "Gill Passman" > wrote in message
>> .. .
>>
>>>NetMax wrote:
>>>
>>>>"Gill Passman" > wrote in message
.. .
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>><snip>
>>>>>
>>>>>Maybe all the time you had to indulge yourselve in the store has cured
>>>>>you of MTS :-)
>>>>>
>>>>>Thanks for the good wishes on the back...I'm sure it improved after a
>>>>>long period of lying flat on our hard mattress....back to the quack
>>>>>tomorrow...
>>>>>
>>>>>Gill
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>lol on store as therapy, but I think it might have made it worse. Now I
>>>>have contacts in the trade who can get me the neatest fish.
>>>>
>>>>Just a thought on altering the aquarium to shift the Rams. Putting a
>>>>piece of cardboard on a corner will often make that area more desirable.
>>>>Foot traffic and shadows can spook fish from spawning. Keep a little
>>>>peep hole in the cardboard to keep track of their activities.
>>>
>>>I think the time has come to refer to them as R*ms - lol....I'm not very
>>>happy with the female Ram....gill movement is quite rapid and generally
>>>she is keeping to herself...she did come out to feed tonight but not this
>>>morning...she is keeping to the back of the tank....she varies between
>>>top and bottom and occassional middle of the tank with the male....
>>>
>>>Have checked the water ammonia is 0, nitrite is 0, nitrate is 0 (but from
>>>the plant growth I'm not suprised) pH is 8....the only real cause for
>>>concern is the pH - I watched the tank cycle so I know that is
>>>complete...
>>>
>>>No sign of any disease but her female companion did die around a week or
>>>so ago...have had the fish around 2 1/2 weeks....not happy about the gill
>>>movement...although it does resemble the Mbuna gill movement about to
>>>become Mums - but from my research Rams aren't mouth brooders....
>>>
>>>Any ideas would be gratefully appreciated...the male and the rest of the
>>>fish in the tank are doing well and it is understocked for the size....
>>>
>>>I would love to break the Ram jinx
>>>
>>>Gill
>>
>>
>> A lone female might be being pursued too much by the male. Observation
>> will tell you if the source of the rapid respiration is stress from
>> tankmates or not. If not, then there is a problem which might not be
>> environmental, though with a pH of 8.0, it would be difficult to
>> completely rule that out. afaik, Rams come from the same regions as
>> Discus, and do very well in the warm acidic conditions associated with
>> them. If these Rams are born/raised in harder high pH water, then it
>> could be a mute point, however, given their fragility and sof****er
>> preferences, breeders are more apt to spawn them in acidic waters, I
>> think.
>>
>> Isolating her and dropping the water's pH and gH might give surprisingly
>> good results. I've found that if they don't like the pH, they tolerate
>> it till their tolerance is reached, and then they go dark, breath rapidly
>> and generally hang somewhere in the tank looking positively at death's
>> door. Lower the pH and they can turn around very quickly like nothing was
>> ever wrong. Just an idea (and hoping that it is nothing more serious).
>
> She has lost her colour now and is hanging out at the bottom of the tank
> at the front still with the rapid gill movement. pH is niggling at me both
> from this and past experience although the LFS tell me they should be fine
> at our pH. Done a quick check on the pH parameters for her tank mates and
> in fact lowering the pH might be beneficial for them as well....
>
> Can't buy any chemicals to do this until the morning and I'm not sure that
> she will make it that long....only stuff in the house that is acidic is
> lemon or vinegar (malt or white wine) and I'm not sure that I would want
> to add that to the tank even if I did move her....
>
> What methods would you suggest? or do you think I should risk waiting
> another 12 hours until the shop opens and I can get something like pH down
> or peat additives (which might not be quick enough)?
>
> Thanks
> Gill

Have you got any RO or distilled water handy? This is commonly used, though
I personally don't have any experience with it. In soft water, I've used
CO2 to lower pH. In hard water, I've used hardwater fish.

Keep in mind that the stressor might not be exclusively pH, but rather the
gH (or TDS), or a combination of gH and pH. Many pH intolerant fish do fine
in high pH soft water, as is being commonly seen in municipalities which
treat river water with caustic soda (= soft high-pH water). This is why the
DI or RO solution achieves both, reducing the gH/kH, and pH. DI is often
available from corner stores.

Keep in mind that you're taking advice from someone who has found Rams to be
just as frustrating as you're finding them to be ;~)
--
www.NetMax.tk

[Gill Passman]

NetMax wrote:
> "Gill Passman" > wrote in message
> .. .
>
>>NetMax wrote:
>>
>>>"Gill Passman" > wrote in message
.. .
>>>
>>>
>>>>NetMax wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>"Gill Passman" > wrote in message
.. .
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>><snip>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Maybe all the time you had to indulge yourselve in the store has cured
>>>>>>you of MTS :-)
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Thanks for the good wishes on the back...I'm sure it improved after a
>>>>>>long period of lying flat on our hard mattress....back to the quack
>>>>>>tomorrow...
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Gill
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>lol on store as therapy, but I think it might have made it worse. Now I
>>>>>have contacts in the trade who can get me the neatest fish.
>>>>>
>>>>>Just a thought on altering the aquarium to shift the Rams. Putting a
>>>>>piece of cardboard on a corner will often make that area more desirable.
>>>>>Foot traffic and shadows can spook fish from spawning. Keep a little
>>>>>peep hole in the cardboard to keep track of their activities.
>>>>
>>>>I think the time has come to refer to them as R*ms - lol....I'm not very
>>>>happy with the female Ram....gill movement is quite rapid and generally
>>>>she is keeping to herself...she did come out to feed tonight but not this
>>>>morning...she is keeping to the back of the tank....she varies between
>>>>top and bottom and occassional middle of the tank with the male....
>>>>
>>>>Have checked the water ammonia is 0, nitrite is 0, nitrate is 0 (but from
>>>>the plant growth I'm not suprised) pH is 8....the only real cause for
>>>>concern is the pH - I watched the tank cycle so I know that is
>>>>complete...
>>>>
>>>>No sign of any disease but her female companion did die around a week or
>>>>so ago...have had the fish around 2 1/2 weeks....not happy about the gill
>>>>movement...although it does resemble the Mbuna gill movement about to
>>>>become Mums - but from my research Rams aren't mouth brooders....
>>>>
>>>>Any ideas would be gratefully appreciated...the male and the rest of the
>>>>fish in the tank are doing well and it is understocked for the size....
>>>>
>>>>I would love to break the Ram jinx
>>>>
>>>>Gill
>>>
>>>
>>>A lone female might be being pursued too much by the male. Observation
>>>will tell you if the source of the rapid respiration is stress from
>>>tankmates or not. If not, then there is a problem which might not be
>>>environmental, though with a pH of 8.0, it would be difficult to
>>>completely rule that out. afaik, Rams come from the same regions as
>>>Discus, and do very well in the warm acidic conditions associated with
>>>them. If these Rams are born/raised in harder high pH water, then it
>>>could be a mute point, however, given their fragility and sof****er
>>>preferences, breeders are more apt to spawn them in acidic waters, I
>>>think.
>>>
>>>Isolating her and dropping the water's pH and gH might give surprisingly
>>>good results. I've found that if they don't like the pH, they tolerate
>>>it till their tolerance is reached, and then they go dark, breath rapidly
>>>and generally hang somewhere in the tank looking positively at death's
>>>door. Lower the pH and they can turn around very quickly like nothing was
>>>ever wrong. Just an idea (and hoping that it is nothing more serious).
>>
>>She has lost her colour now and is hanging out at the bottom of the tank
>>at the front still with the rapid gill movement. pH is niggling at me both
>>from this and past experience although the LFS tell me they should be fine
>>at our pH. Done a quick check on the pH parameters for her tank mates and
>>in fact lowering the pH might be beneficial for them as well....
>>
>>Can't buy any chemicals to do this until the morning and I'm not sure that
>>she will make it that long....only stuff in the house that is acidic is
>>lemon or vinegar (malt or white wine) and I'm not sure that I would want
>>to add that to the tank even if I did move her....
>>
>>What methods would you suggest? or do you think I should risk waiting
>>another 12 hours until the shop opens and I can get something like pH down
>>or peat additives (which might not be quick enough)?
>>
>>Thanks
>>Gill
>
>
> Have you got any RO or distilled water handy? This is commonly used, though
> I personally don't have any experience with it. In soft water, I've used
> CO2 to lower pH. In hard water, I've used hardwater fish.
>
> Keep in mind that the stressor might not be exclusively pH, but rather the
> gH (or TDS), or a combination of gH and pH. Many pH intolerant fish do fine
> in high pH soft water, as is being commonly seen in municipalities which
> treat river water with caustic soda (= soft high-pH water). This is why the
> DI or RO solution achieves both, reducing the gH/kH, and pH. DI is often
> available from corner stores.
>
> Keep in mind that you're taking advice from someone who has found Rams to be
> just as frustrating as you're finding them to be ;~)


I've got a co2 unit sitting around in it's box - might work - certainly
got to be worth a try.

Hope it isn't too late....

BTW I haven't really ever come across anyone who has success with
these...my best shot was 6 months until I moved him to another tank due
to an agression problem with a betta....

Thanks
I'll update you
Gill

[Gill Passman]

Gill Passman wrote:
> NetMax wrote:
>
>> "Gill Passman" > wrote in message
>> .. .
>>
>>> NetMax wrote:
>>>
>>>> "Gill Passman" > wrote in message
>>>> .. .
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> NetMax wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> "Gill Passman" > wrote in message
>>>>>> .. .
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> <snip>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Maybe all the time you had to indulge yourselve in the store has
>>>>>>> cured you of MTS :-)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Thanks for the good wishes on the back...I'm sure it improved
>>>>>>> after a long period of lying flat on our hard mattress....back to
>>>>>>> the quack tomorrow...
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Gill
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> lol on store as therapy, but I think it might have made it worse.
>>>>>> Now I have contacts in the trade who can get me the neatest fish.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Just a thought on altering the aquarium to shift the Rams.
>>>>>> Putting a piece of cardboard on a corner will often make that area
>>>>>> more desirable. Foot traffic and shadows can spook fish from
>>>>>> spawning. Keep a little peep hole in the cardboard to keep track
>>>>>> of their activities.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I think the time has come to refer to them as R*ms - lol....I'm not
>>>>> very happy with the female Ram....gill movement is quite rapid and
>>>>> generally she is keeping to herself...she did come out to feed
>>>>> tonight but not this morning...she is keeping to the back of the
>>>>> tank....she varies between top and bottom and occassional middle of
>>>>> the tank with the male....
>>>>>
>>>>> Have checked the water ammonia is 0, nitrite is 0, nitrate is 0
>>>>> (but from the plant growth I'm not suprised) pH is 8....the only
>>>>> real cause for concern is the pH - I watched the tank cycle so I
>>>>> know that is complete...
>>>>>
>>>>> No sign of any disease but her female companion did die around a
>>>>> week or so ago...have had the fish around 2 1/2 weeks....not happy
>>>>> about the gill movement...although it does resemble the Mbuna gill
>>>>> movement about to become Mums - but from my research Rams aren't
>>>>> mouth brooders....
>>>>>
>>>>> Any ideas would be gratefully appreciated...the male and the rest
>>>>> of the fish in the tank are doing well and it is understocked for
>>>>> the size....
>>>>>
>>>>> I would love to break the Ram jinx
>>>>>
>>>>> Gill
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> A lone female might be being pursued too much by the male.
>>>> Observation will tell you if the source of the rapid respiration is
>>>> stress from tankmates or not. If not, then there is a problem which
>>>> might not be environmental, though with a pH of 8.0, it would be
>>>> difficult to completely rule that out. afaik, Rams come from the
>>>> same regions as Discus, and do very well in the warm acidic
>>>> conditions associated with them. If these Rams are born/raised in
>>>> harder high pH water, then it could be a mute point, however, given
>>>> their fragility and sof****er preferences, breeders are more apt to
>>>> spawn them in acidic waters, I think.
>>>>
>>>> Isolating her and dropping the water's pH and gH might give
>>>> surprisingly good results. I've found that if they don't like the
>>>> pH, they tolerate it till their tolerance is reached, and then they
>>>> go dark, breath rapidly and generally hang somewhere in the tank
>>>> looking positively at death's door. Lower the pH and they can turn
>>>> around very quickly like nothing was ever wrong. Just an idea (and
>>>> hoping that it is nothing more serious).
>>>
>>>
>>> She has lost her colour now and is hanging out at the bottom of the
>>> tank at the front still with the rapid gill movement. pH is niggling
>>> at me both from this and past experience although the LFS tell me
>>> they should be fine at our pH. Done a quick check on the pH
>>> parameters for her tank mates and in fact lowering the pH might be
>>> beneficial for them as well....
>>>
>>> Can't buy any chemicals to do this until the morning and I'm not sure
>>> that she will make it that long....only stuff in the house that is
>>> acidic is lemon or vinegar (malt or white wine) and I'm not sure that
>>> I would want to add that to the tank even if I did move her....
>>>
>>> What methods would you suggest? or do you think I should risk waiting
>>> another 12 hours until the shop opens and I can get something like pH
>>> down or peat additives (which might not be quick enough)?
>>>
>>> Thanks
>>> Gill
>>
>>
>>
>> Have you got any RO or distilled water handy? This is commonly used,
>> though I personally don't have any experience with it. In soft water,
>> I've used CO2 to lower pH. In hard water, I've used hardwater fish.
>>
>> Keep in mind that the stressor might not be exclusively pH, but rather
>> the gH (or TDS), or a combination of gH and pH. Many pH intolerant
>> fish do fine in high pH soft water, as is being commonly seen in
>> municipalities which treat river water with caustic soda (= soft
>> high-pH water). This is why the DI or RO solution achieves both,
>> reducing the gH/kH, and pH. DI is often available from corner stores.
>>
>> Keep in mind that you're taking advice from someone who has found Rams
>> to be just as frustrating as you're finding them to be ;~)
>
>
>
> I've got a co2 unit sitting around in it's box - might work - certainly
> got to be worth a try.
>
> Hope it isn't too late....
>
> BTW I haven't really ever come across anyone who has success with
> these...my best shot was 6 months until I moved him to another tank due
> to an agression problem with a betta....
>
> Thanks
> I'll update you
> Gill

OK so CO2 unit set up having eventually located in torrential rain the
QT tank which hubbie had hidden in the garage and he is away working.
Have filled with water from the tank that the fish was in plus some
fresh (around 20%)...have added bogwood, one live plant and some fakes
for hiding places...plus I'm hoping the bogwood will help soften the
water (test kit in the morning). I'm just wondering if a dose of
aquarium salt might help as well....waiting for the temp to come up
before moving her...

Gill

[Mean_Chlorine]

Thusly "NetMax" > Spake Unto All:

>Keep in mind that you're taking advice from someone who has found Rams to be
>just as frustrating as you're finding them to be ;~)

Ditto. They're hopelessly difficult, IMO. They've got very short
natural lifespans (oldest ram known to me lived 3 years, less than
guppies can); they're quite aggressive and will happily kill eachother
and pick fights with fishes much bigger & badder than them, but can
not take being dominated at all; they're heavily inbred; and they are
usually raised with prophylactic dosing of antibiotics (meaning they
have suppressed immuno defence system & are very sensitive to
disease).

IME it's rare for a ram to survive for a year after purchase, even if
given the best of care. And should you luck out and get them to
survive and breed without killing eachother, you'll find them unable
to care for their offspring - their natural breeding behavior is
totally shot.

Personally I'd give myself far better odds at keeping & breeding even
the most sensitive cichlids, like checkerboard cichlids, than rams.

I recommend Bolivian Rams (Mikrogeophagus altispinosus) to people who
want to keep rams. Although they're bigger and not as colorful as the
blue rams, they're far more stable, hardy & long-lived fish.

The alternative is to get blue rams, and be prepared for the very high
probability of failure. IMO blue rams are one of those beginner fish
which really aren't.

[Gill Passman]

Mean_Chlorine wrote:
> Thusly "NetMax" > Spake Unto All:
>
>
>>Keep in mind that you're taking advice from someone who has found Rams to be
>>just as frustrating as you're finding them to be ;~)
>
>
> Ditto. They're hopelessly difficult, IMO. They've got very short
> natural lifespans (oldest ram known to me lived 3 years, less than
> guppies can); they're quite aggressive and will happily kill eachother
> and pick fights with fishes much bigger & badder than them, but can
> not take being dominated at all; they're heavily inbred; and they are
> usually raised with prophylactic dosing of antibiotics (meaning they
> have suppressed immuno defence system & are very sensitive to
> disease).
>
> IME it's rare for a ram to survive for a year after purchase, even if
> given the best of care. And should you luck out and get them to
> survive and breed without killing eachother, you'll find them unable
> to care for their offspring - their natural breeding behavior is
> totally shot.
>
> Personally I'd give myself far better odds at keeping & breeding even
> the most sensitive cichlids, like checkerboard cichlids, than rams.
>
> I recommend Bolivian Rams (Mikrogeophagus altispinosus) to people who
> want to keep rams. Although they're bigger and not as colorful as the
> blue rams, they're far more stable, hardy & long-lived fish.
>
> The alternative is to get blue rams, and be prepared for the very high
> probability of failure. IMO blue rams are one of those beginner fish
> which really aren't.
>
I get totally what you are saying.....I indulge my true cichlid urges
with a tank of Mbunas and boy are they mean.....and boy do they breed -
the tank is now getting overstocked by surviving off-spring which I need
to address shortly.

But....I just like Dutch Rams (AKA blue etc)....small fish with great
character and don't want to be defeated. I agree totally no way are they
a beginner fish....my first deaths were before I even understood about
water quality/changes etc.

Anyway she has been moved....tank has had salt, stress coat (don't
believe really but worth a shot as I had a bottle lying about that came
with one of the tanks), driftwood from my main tank, one live plant,
some fake plants, filter medium from my betta (ever a good donator -
tanks are the same and comes in 3 different stages and isn't compromised
by a bit of borrowing) and a CO2 unit....only bummer was a rainbow fry
that must have been born in my main community tank came out for a look
around and got sucked straight up into the filter :-( - but if one has
survived the onslaught of the Clown Loaches maybe more have or will in
the future....

gill

[Gill Passman]

Gill Passman wrote:
> Mean_Chlorine wrote:
>
>> Thusly "NetMax" > Spake Unto All:
>>
>>
>>> Keep in mind that you're taking advice from someone who has found
>>> Rams to be just as frustrating as you're finding them to be ;~)
>>
>>
>>
>> Ditto. They're hopelessly difficult, IMO. They've got very short
>> natural lifespans (oldest ram known to me lived 3 years, less than
>> guppies can); they're quite aggressive and will happily kill eachother
>> and pick fights with fishes much bigger & badder than them, but can
>> not take being dominated at all; they're heavily inbred; and they are
>> usually raised with prophylactic dosing of antibiotics (meaning they
>> have suppressed immuno defence system & are very sensitive to
>> disease).
>>
>> IME it's rare for a ram to survive for a year after purchase, even if
>> given the best of care. And should you luck out and get them to
>> survive and breed without killing eachother, you'll find them unable
>> to care for their offspring - their natural breeding behavior is
>> totally shot.
>>
>> Personally I'd give myself far better odds at keeping & breeding even
>> the most sensitive cichlids, like checkerboard cichlids, than rams.
>>
>> I recommend Bolivian Rams (Mikrogeophagus altispinosus) to people who
>> want to keep rams. Although they're bigger and not as colorful as the
>> blue rams, they're far more stable, hardy & long-lived fish.
>>
>> The alternative is to get blue rams, and be prepared for the very high
>> probability of failure. IMO blue rams are one of those beginner fish
>> which really aren't.
>>
> I get totally what you are saying.....I indulge my true cichlid urges
> with a tank of Mbunas and boy are they mean.....and boy do they breed -
> the tank is now getting overstocked by surviving off-spring which I need
> to address shortly.
>
> But....I just like Dutch Rams (AKA blue etc)....small fish with great
> character and don't want to be defeated. I agree totally no way are they
> a beginner fish....my first deaths were before I even understood about
> water quality/changes etc.
>
> Anyway she has been moved....tank has had salt, stress coat (don't
> believe really but worth a shot as I had a bottle lying about that came
> with one of the tanks), driftwood from my main tank, one live plant,
> some fake plants, filter medium from my betta (ever a good donator -
> tanks are the same and comes in 3 different stages and isn't compromised
> by a bit of borrowing) and a CO2 unit....only bummer was a rainbow fry
> that must have been born in my main community tank came out for a look
> around and got sucked straight up into the filter :-( - but if one has
> survived the onslaught of the Clown Loaches maybe more have or will in
> the future....
>
> gill

I lost her this morning :-( she put up a good fight....now just have the
one male remaining and am not going to tempt fate with any further
purchases.

Gill