Derek Benson..I thought of something.

[Tynk]

I thought I remembered you saying in a post "when you were in the
States"..or something like that.
Is it possible that things are done differently in the country you are
in now, like quarantining fish before they're made available to the
general public?
This could be the reason for your claims that most of the fish i the
shops are healthy.
In the US, go into any shop and look into any of the tanks. You will no
doubtedly sick fish. (rarely do any shops quarantine before the fish
are in the dispaly/for sale tanks here. )
This would possibly explain your claims.
People in the US know exactly what I mean by saying that you can go
into any shop and see diseased fish for sale.
Last night...in Petsmart looking for Fluke tabs, as were suggested to
me for my skinny Clown Loach, I took a gander at their fish selection
(not that I would buy any from there).
I witnessed:
Angelfish showing obvious symptoms of the Angelfish virus (aka Discus
plague), Ich..MANY tanks had Ich, Some tanks had fish swirling
uncontrolably, fish scratching off decor, Gourami with a large lesion
and Oscars that were thin as paper, as well as some Gourmis the same
way.
Things like this can be seen on any typical day. This is nothing out of
the ordinary.
As for the Angels with the Angel virus, PetsMart denies the existance
of the Virus' existance. Unreal.
So, could it be possible that it's the norm for your shops to
quarantine before you even see the fish available to you?

[Steve]

Tynk wrote:

> Last night...in Petsmart looking for Fluke tabs, as were suggested to
> me for my skinny Clown Loach, I took a gander at their fish selection
> (not that I would buy any from there).
> I witnessed:
> Angelfish showing obvious symptoms of the Angelfish virus (aka Discus
> plague), Ich..MANY tanks had Ich, Some tanks had fish swirling
> uncontrolably, fish scratching off decor, Gourami with a large lesion
> and Oscars that were thin as paper, as well as some Gourmis the same
> way.
> Things like this can be seen on any typical day. This is nothing out of
> the ordinary.

Oh cow droppings :) ! We recently got a Petsmart in this Canadian town,
and their fish seem fine. They have two fancy central filtration
systems, and the staff seem knowledgeable.

Our Walmart is another story all together.

Just do not purchase livestock from a store that has many sick fish,
and/ or practices poor maintenance of their tanks.

I'm convinced that Derek Benson has a point. It's probably better to
place new, apparently healthy fish into your main aquarium, instead of
into a cramped, potentially unhealthy quarantine tank. Just don't
transfer the fish store water into your aquariums; only transfer the fish.

I've owned quarantine tanks, but they tend to become permanent homes for
fish, therefore established aquariums. I suspect that's the case with
most aquarium hobbyists.

Steve

[Bill Stock]

"Tynk" > wrote in message
ups.com...
>I thought I remembered you saying in a post "when you were in the
> States"..or something like that.
> Is it possible that things are done differently in the country you are
> in now, like quarantining fish before they're made available to the
> general public?
> This could be the reason for your claims that most of the fish i the
> shops are healthy.
> In the US, go into any shop and look into any of the tanks. You will no
> doubtedly sick fish. (rarely do any shops quarantine before the fish
> are in the dispaly/for sale tanks here. )
> This would possibly explain your claims.
> People in the US know exactly what I mean by saying that you can go
> into any shop and see diseased fish for sale.
> Last night...in Petsmart looking for Fluke tabs, as were suggested to
> me for my skinny Clown Loach, I took a gander at their fish selection
> (not that I would buy any from there).
> I witnessed:
> Angelfish showing obvious symptoms of the Angelfish virus (aka Discus
> plague), Ich..MANY tanks had Ich, Some tanks had fish swirling
> uncontrolably, fish scratching off decor, Gourami with a large lesion
> and Oscars that were thin as paper, as well as some Gourmis the same
> way.
> Things like this can be seen on any typical day. This is nothing out of
> the ordinary.
> As for the Angels with the Angel virus, PetsMart denies the existance
> of the Virus' existance. Unreal.
> So, could it be possible that it's the norm for your shops to
> quarantine before you even see the fish available to you?
>

Probably more about picking a good fish store and a bit of luck. I started
up my tropical tank about six months ago and I bought most of the fish in
two batches (21 fish in all) from the same Chinese fish shop. Since I was
starting fresh I did not quarantine them, besides they were from four
different tanks, so I would have needed four quarantine tanks (or mucho
patience). I added three Otos from PetsMart about three months ago and did
not quarantine these either, as I was worried about their transition issues.
One of the Oto's was never quite as perky as the other two and I did lose it
about a month ago. I also added two more Loaches from Big Als about a month
ago and DID quarantine these, as the tank is "established" now.

I seem to have worse luck adding Goldfish to the pond, losing up to 50% of
Walmart fish and only 10% of Big Als feeder fish. So I think it's more about
the store than the country?

I'm not in the U.S. either BTW.

[Tynk]

Steve wrote:
> Tynk wrote:
>
> > Last night...in Petsmart looking for Fluke tabs, as were suggested to
> > me for my skinny Clown Loach, I took a gander at their fish selection
> > (not that I would buy any from there).
> > I witnessed:
> > Angelfish showing obvious symptoms of the Angelfish virus (aka Discus
> > plague), Ich..MANY tanks had Ich, Some tanks had fish swirling
> > uncontrolably, fish scratching off decor, Gourami with a large lesion
> > and Oscars that were thin as paper, as well as some Gourmis the same
> > way.
> > Things like this can be seen on any typical day. This is nothing out of
> > the ordinary.
>
> Oh cow droppings :) ! We recently got a Petsmart in this Canadian town,
> and their fish seem fine. They have two fancy central filtration
> systems, and the staff seem knowledgeable.
>
> Our Walmart is another story all together.
>
> Just do not purchase livestock from a store that has many sick fish,
> and/ or practices poor maintenance of their tanks.
>
> I'm convinced that Derek Benson has a point. It's probably better to
> place new, apparently healthy fish into your main aquarium, instead of
> into a cramped, potentially unhealthy quarantine tank. Just don't
> transfer the fish store water into your aquariums; only transfer the fish.
>
> I've owned quarantine tanks, but they tend to become permanent homes for
> fish, therefore established aquariums. I suspect that's the case with
> most aquarium hobbyists.
>
> Steve

We recently got a Petsmart in this Canadian town,
> and their fish seem fine. They have two fancy central filtration
> systems, and the staff seem knowledgeable.

Keyword..recently.
The Petsmart's around here (IL, USA) have been around for a good 15-16
yrs. They all pretty much look like they have good stock at first.
Then the problems willstart, unless they do things differently from
what they do in the States.
The "fancy" filtration is one of their main downfalls.
Instead of a batch of diseased fish being contained to that tank, it is
spread throughout the entire system, and therefore to all the tanks.
The Goldfish are on their own system, and the rest of the fish are on
the other one. There is a UV sterilizer for the system, but it is
problem plagued.
I've heard many employees say that they don't know how to use it, that
it isn't used, that it burnt out months ago and no one fixed it, etc
etc.
They have these lights at the top of the tanks. Once a red light was
lit up and I asked the employee what it meant. He said "oh that just
means the UV's not on, and we never use it anyway, so it doesn't
matter".
I couldn't believe it. They have it available, yet don't use it.
I personally know one of the employees at a local Petsmart. The stories
she tells me are unreal.
They are told to lie to folks just to make the sale.
The employees are also lied to. The lady I know is aware that I breed
Angelfish. She asked me about the Angelfish virus because she would
have been a baby when it first hit the US in the late 80's.
Their store's Angels are showing obvious symptoms of it. The company
told their employees that the angels are NOT sick, it's because of a pH
difference. That's a bunch of "cow droppings".
If your Petsmart has knowledgeable employees you are one very lucky.
Most do not. That is not an exaggeration.

It's probably better to
> place new, apparently healthy fish into your main aquarium, instead of
> into a cramped, potentially unhealthy quarantine tank.

Who said anything about a quarantine tank being cramped?
I've been around long enough to know better than to put an "apparently
healthy" fish into my main tanks. Again, there's too m any things you
cannot see on the outside of a fish.
Not to even mention certain diseases that have a certain gestation
period.
Look at the Angelvirus. Gestation is 2 weeks!!!
That means you can have an apparently healthy looking Angelfish...and
if I followed yours and Derek's adive and put it into the main tank,
I'd be killing every one of my fish, as that new fish is a "dead fish
swimming", as I like to call them.
Fish TB...can take months, to never to show outward signs on a fish,
yet that fish can infect every fish in your house.
There's a number of other virus' that can't be seen. Fish may look fine
for a while, and then just start dropping like flies.
Bettas get a virus that takes about a week to 2 to show up.
The look perfect AS they're dying.
Mr. Benson has not seen enough of these diseases to know how common
they are, and that was why I wondered if the country he lived in had a
practice of quarantining before fish are available to the public. That
would make sense as to why he claims he never sees sick fish in shops.
Being that you're in Canada, maybe things are done differently as well.
Why not give a jingle and ask your local shops.

[Tynk]

Bill Stock wrote:
> "Tynk" > wrote in message
> ups.com...
> >I thought I remembered you saying in a post "when you were in the
> > States"..or something like that.
> > Is it possible that things are done differently in the country you are
> > in now, like quarantining fish before they're made available to the
> > general public?
> > This could be the reason for your claims that most of the fish i the
> > shops are healthy.
> > In the US, go into any shop and look into any of the tanks. You will no
> > doubtedly sick fish. (rarely do any shops quarantine before the fish
> > are in the dispaly/for sale tanks here. )
> > This would possibly explain your claims.
> > People in the US know exactly what I mean by saying that you can go
> > into any shop and see diseased fish for sale.
> > Last night...in Petsmart looking for Fluke tabs, as were suggested to
> > me for my skinny Clown Loach, I took a gander at their fish selection
> > (not that I would buy any from there).
> > I witnessed:
> > Angelfish showing obvious symptoms of the Angelfish virus (aka Discus
> > plague), Ich..MANY tanks had Ich, Some tanks had fish swirling
> > uncontrolably, fish scratching off decor, Gourami with a large lesion
> > and Oscars that were thin as paper, as well as some Gourmis the same
> > way.
> > Things like this can be seen on any typical day. This is nothing out of
> > the ordinary.
> > As for the Angels with the Angel virus, PetsMart denies the existance
> > of the Virus' existance. Unreal.
> > So, could it be possible that it's the norm for your shops to
> > quarantine before you even see the fish available to you?
> >
>
> Probably more about picking a good fish store and a bit of luck. I started
> up my tropical tank about six months ago and I bought most of the fish in
> two batches (21 fish in all) from the same Chinese fish shop. Since I was
> starting fresh I did not quarantine them, besides they were from four
> different tanks, so I would have needed four quarantine tanks (or mucho
> patience). I added three Otos from PetsMart about three months ago and did
> not quarantine these either, as I was worried about their transition issues.
> One of the Oto's was never quite as perky as the other two and I did lose it
> about a month ago. I also added two more Loaches from Big Als about a month
> ago and DID quarantine these, as the tank is "established" now.
>
> I seem to have worse luck adding Goldfish to the pond, losing up to 50% of
> Walmart fish and only 10% of Big Als feeder fish. So I think it's more about
> the store than the country?
>


> Probably more about picking a good fish store and a bit of luck.
> I'm not in the U.S. either BTW.
What country are you in?
Good fish stores are hard to come by in the States. It didn't used to
be like this 30 yrs ago.
A few weeks ago I was explaining to a local shop's employee how to sex
live bearers because the customer he was waiting on wanted a male and
female platy.
Now a days it seems like the folks working at shops are in for the
paycheck, not for love of the hobby.
There some good shops left, but they are very hard to come by these
days.
Some of which the owners are getting much older and rely on younger
help. These kids just need a paycheck. I've outright asked one of the
kids at a different local shop. I was told "I don't care, I just need
the money."
As more and more chain stores pop up,the smaller shops close down.
We're left with these mega marts that are all about the cash.
WalMart's...oh geez!
Several years back I was at a local WalMart and as I was getting cat
litter I saw a tank..one tank full of male Bettas ripping the crap out
of each other.
All of them were shredded...about 20 males in a 10g tank.
I called for the pet dept. guy and I said they have to get those males
into separate tanks.
The guy said to me..."Oh they're fine like that. They won't fight if
there's a bunch of them kept together." I told him to look at the
condition of the Bettas in that tank and again, I was told that they'd
be fine.
I let him know that I'm a breeder of Bettas and that there is NO WAY
that if you kept a bunch of males in one tank that they would not
fight, and it was obvious and they were all fighting in front of the
guys eyes.
He still refused to separate them and so I called for the store manager
to come.
He , the store manager knew about Bettas and told the pet dept. guy off
good and made him separate them all right then.
The pet dept. guy had a new department after that disaster. Thank
goodness.
I kind of think he just liked watching them fight.
A local Meijer store had an employee that kept putting the males into
each others container to watch them fight. They had him on tape doing
it repeatedly and he fired over it. (I found this out because I'm
friendly with the lady that took over that section of the store).
Last year when one of a few local Petsmart's opened it's doors it had a
large grand opening sale. Good sales on dog food and fish supplies, so
off we went.
I happened to over hear the fish dept. manager explaining to a couple
that they could have 4 Oscars in their 20 gallon tank. The man
said..well it says here that they grow to 12" long. The manager
said.."Oh they only grow to the size of their tank."
I caught up to the couple as they were in another part of the store and
explained the facts. As I was checking out they came to thank me and
had some live bearers in a bag instead.
Some of the most stupid things I've heard in this hobby came from
either a Petsmart employee or a PetCo employee. Both of which claim
they have "pet specialists" or "experts in the hobby". Sadly, only a
handful do.
There's a PetCo out by my Ma's house. They actually do have a lady that
knows her stuff, and quite well. She tells me all the time that she's
so close to quiting because she's the only one who knows anything in
the entire store.
I keep on her..Please...don't quit! Teach them....don't quit, please!!!
I haven't seen her in a while. I wonder if she finally had enough.

[Gill Passman]

Tynk wrote:
> Steve wrote:
>
>>Tynk wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Last night...in Petsmart looking for Fluke tabs, as were suggested to
>>>me for my skinny Clown Loach, I took a gander at their fish selection
>>>(not that I would buy any from there).
>>>I witnessed:
>>>Angelfish showing obvious symptoms of the Angelfish virus (aka Discus
>>>plague), Ich..MANY tanks had Ich, Some tanks had fish swirling
>>>uncontrolably, fish scratching off decor, Gourami with a large lesion
>>>and Oscars that were thin as paper, as well as some Gourmis the same
>>>way.
>>>Things like this can be seen on any typical day. This is nothing out of
>>>the ordinary.
>>
>>Oh cow droppings :) ! We recently got a Petsmart in this Canadian town,
>>and their fish seem fine. They have two fancy central filtration
>>systems, and the staff seem knowledgeable.
>>
>>Our Walmart is another story all together.
>>
>>Just do not purchase livestock from a store that has many sick fish,
>>and/ or practices poor maintenance of their tanks.
>>
>>I'm convinced that Derek Benson has a point. It's probably better to
>>place new, apparently healthy fish into your main aquarium, instead of
>>into a cramped, potentially unhealthy quarantine tank. Just don't
>>transfer the fish store water into your aquariums; only transfer the fish.
>>
>>I've owned quarantine tanks, but they tend to become permanent homes for
>>fish, therefore established aquariums. I suspect that's the case with
>>most aquarium hobbyists.
>>
>>Steve
>
>
> We recently got a Petsmart in this Canadian town,
>
>>and their fish seem fine. They have two fancy central filtration
>>systems, and the staff seem knowledgeable.
>
>
> Keyword..recently.
> The Petsmart's around here (IL, USA) have been around for a good 15-16
> yrs. They all pretty much look like they have good stock at first.
> Then the problems willstart, unless they do things differently from
> what they do in the States.
> The "fancy" filtration is one of their main downfalls.
> Instead of a batch of diseased fish being contained to that tank, it is
> spread throughout the entire system, and therefore to all the tanks.
> The Goldfish are on their own system, and the rest of the fish are on
> the other one. There is a UV sterilizer for the system, but it is
> problem plagued.
> I've heard many employees say that they don't know how to use it, that
> it isn't used, that it burnt out months ago and no one fixed it, etc
> etc.
> They have these lights at the top of the tanks. Once a red light was
> lit up and I asked the employee what it meant. He said "oh that just
> means the UV's not on, and we never use it anyway, so it doesn't
> matter".
> I couldn't believe it. They have it available, yet don't use it.
> I personally know one of the employees at a local Petsmart. The stories
> she tells me are unreal.
> They are told to lie to folks just to make the sale.
> The employees are also lied to. The lady I know is aware that I breed
> Angelfish. She asked me about the Angelfish virus because she would
> have been a baby when it first hit the US in the late 80's.
> Their store's Angels are showing obvious symptoms of it. The company
> told their employees that the angels are NOT sick, it's because of a pH
> difference. That's a bunch of "cow droppings".
> If your Petsmart has knowledgeable employees you are one very lucky.
> Most do not. That is not an exaggeration.
>
> It's probably better to
>
>>place new, apparently healthy fish into your main aquarium, instead of
>>into a cramped, potentially unhealthy quarantine tank.
>
>
> Who said anything about a quarantine tank being cramped?
> I've been around long enough to know better than to put an "apparently
> healthy" fish into my main tanks. Again, there's too m any things you
> cannot see on the outside of a fish.
> Not to even mention certain diseases that have a certain gestation
> period.
> Look at the Angelvirus. Gestation is 2 weeks!!!
> That means you can have an apparently healthy looking Angelfish...and
> if I followed yours and Derek's adive and put it into the main tank,
> I'd be killing every one of my fish, as that new fish is a "dead fish
> swimming", as I like to call them.
> Fish TB...can take months, to never to show outward signs on a fish,
> yet that fish can infect every fish in your house.
> There's a number of other virus' that can't be seen. Fish may look fine
> for a while, and then just start dropping like flies.
> Bettas get a virus that takes about a week to 2 to show up.
> The look perfect AS they're dying.
> Mr. Benson has not seen enough of these diseases to know how common
> they are, and that was why I wondered if the country he lived in had a
> practice of quarantining before fish are available to the public. That
> would make sense as to why he claims he never sees sick fish in shops.
> Being that you're in Canada, maybe things are done differently as well.
> Why not give a jingle and ask your local shops.
>
So with the case of TB it is unlikely that this would emerge during the
"standard" quarantine period...which I would imagine is around the 2
week period...

I bought some Clowns and Neon Tetras a few weeks ago and quarantined
them prior to adding them to my main Community Tank. The Clowns hid all
the time meaning that I didn't spot the Ich that killed them until it
was too late. Also during this period I bought another 3 Clown Loaches
and put them straight into the Community Tank (without the water). These
Clowns were confident and out in the centre of the tank most of the time
so I was able to monitor them. Sadly, the QT Clowns and 1 of the Neons
died so I moved the remaining 5 Neons into a clean 5 gall tank. 2 more
Neons died (I'm guessing the Ich). I kept the remaining three in QT for
another 10 days or so and continued the Ich treatment. I then decided it
was safe to move them into my established tank as they no longer showed
any signs of ich - this was over 3 weeks in QT for these fish. They have
been in the Community tank for just over two weeks now...and yep...a
couple of days ago I noticed the tell tale white spots on the
Clowns...thankfully it is responding well to treatment this time.

So the question has to be how long do you need to quarantine fish before
adding them into the main tank? I would have hoped that 3 weeks plus
would have been long enough but obviously not.

The only safe thing I can think of for my fish based on current
experience is to not add anything at all (including plants), which of
course is never going to happen. I think the point I'm trying to make is
that in my experience putting the fish into quarantine hasn't actually
made any difference - I may as well have put them straight into the
Community Tank as the result is the same....

Of course the other thing is to try and buy healthy fish but my recent
experience is that this is also becoming increasingly difficult but the
places I use to allow the fish time to "acclimitize" before selling them...

Gill

[Gill Passman]

Steve wrote:

> I've owned quarantine tanks, but they tend to become permanent homes for
> fish, therefore established aquariums. I suspect that's the case with
> most aquarium hobbyists.
>
> Steve

LOL - done that too...In fact the only reason my last QT tank went back
in its box (hubbie shocked) was because 3 tanks in the kitchen would
have been excessive and I was running out of work space...hmmm I might
have just converted it though if I'd realised there wouldn't have been
too many objections :-)

Gill

[Bill Stock]

"Tynk" > wrote in message
ups.com...
>
> Bill Stock wrote:
>> "Tynk" > wrote in message
>> ups.com...
>> >I thought I remembered you saying in a post "when you were in the
>> > States"..or something like that.
>> > Is it possible that things are done differently in the country you are
>> > in now, like quarantining fish before they're made available to the
>> > general public?
>> > This could be the reason for your claims that most of the fish i the
>> > shops are healthy.
>> > In the US, go into any shop and look into any of the tanks. You will no
>> > doubtedly sick fish. (rarely do any shops quarantine before the fish
>> > are in the dispaly/for sale tanks here. )
>> > This would possibly explain your claims.
>> > People in the US know exactly what I mean by saying that you can go
>> > into any shop and see diseased fish for sale.
>> > Last night...in Petsmart looking for Fluke tabs, as were suggested to
>> > me for my skinny Clown Loach, I took a gander at their fish selection
>> > (not that I would buy any from there).
>> > I witnessed:
>> > Angelfish showing obvious symptoms of the Angelfish virus (aka Discus
>> > plague), Ich..MANY tanks had Ich, Some tanks had fish swirling
>> > uncontrolably, fish scratching off decor, Gourami with a large lesion
>> > and Oscars that were thin as paper, as well as some Gourmis the same
>> > way.
>> > Things like this can be seen on any typical day. This is nothing out of
>> > the ordinary.
>> > As for the Angels with the Angel virus, PetsMart denies the existance
>> > of the Virus' existance. Unreal.
>> > So, could it be possible that it's the norm for your shops to
>> > quarantine before you even see the fish available to you?
>> >
>>
>> Probably more about picking a good fish store and a bit of luck. I
>> started
>> up my tropical tank about six months ago and I bought most of the fish in
>> two batches (21 fish in all) from the same Chinese fish shop. Since I was
>> starting fresh I did not quarantine them, besides they were from four
>> different tanks, so I would have needed four quarantine tanks (or mucho
>> patience). I added three Otos from PetsMart about three months ago and
>> did
>> not quarantine these either, as I was worried about their transition
>> issues.
>> One of the Oto's was never quite as perky as the other two and I did lose
>> it
>> about a month ago. I also added two more Loaches from Big Als about a
>> month
>> ago and DID quarantine these, as the tank is "established" now.
>>
>> I seem to have worse luck adding Goldfish to the pond, losing up to 50%
>> of
>> Walmart fish and only 10% of Big Als feeder fish. So I think it's more
>> about
>> the store than the country?
>>
>
>
>> Probably more about picking a good fish store and a bit of luck.
>> I'm not in the U.S. either BTW.


> What country are you in?

Canada.

> Good fish stores are hard to come by in the States. It didn't used to
> be like this 30 yrs ago.
> A few weeks ago I was explaining to a local shop's employee how to sex
> live bearers because the customer he was waiting on wanted a male and
> female platy.
> Now a days it seems like the folks working at shops are in for the
> paycheck, not for love of the hobby.
> There some good shops left, but they are very hard to come by these
> days.

Yes, I've seen some very experience people in Big Als and also a few noobs.
The local PetsMart always amazes me, some very knowledgeable young people in
their. Not quite up to dedicated fish shore snuff, but damn good. They must
have a decent manager.

> Some of which the owners are getting much older and rely on younger
> help. These kids just need a paycheck. I've outright asked one of the
> kids at a different local shop. I was told "I don't care, I just need
> the money."
> As more and more chain stores pop up,the smaller shops close down.
> We're left with these mega marts that are all about the cash.
> WalMart's...oh geez!
> Several years back I was at a local WalMart and as I was getting cat
> litter I saw a tank..one tank full of male Bettas ripping the crap out
> of each other.
> All of them were shredded...about 20 males in a 10g tank.
> I called for the pet dept. guy and I said they have to get those males
> into separate tanks.
> The guy said to me..."Oh they're fine like that. They won't fight if
> there's a bunch of them kept together." I told him to look at the
> condition of the Bettas in that tank and again, I was told that they'd
> be fine.
> I let him know that I'm a breeder of Bettas and that there is NO WAY
> that if you kept a bunch of males in one tank that they would not
> fight, and it was obvious and they were all fighting in front of the
> guys eyes.
> He still refused to separate them and so I called for the store manager
> to come.
> He , the store manager knew about Bettas and told the pet dept. guy off
> good and made him separate them all right then.
> The pet dept. guy had a new department after that disaster. Thank
> goodness.

Yes, Walmart's a bit of a sad case. That's where I got my Betta in a Bucket
(Cup). Fortuanetly he's doing fine.


> I kind of think he just liked watching them fight.
> A local Meijer store had an employee that kept putting the males into
> each others container to watch them fight. They had him on tape doing
> it repeatedly and he fired over it. (I found this out because I'm
> friendly with the lady that took over that section of the store).
> Last year when one of a few local Petsmart's opened it's doors it had a
> large grand opening sale. Good sales on dog food and fish supplies, so
> off we went.
> I happened to over hear the fish dept. manager explaining to a couple
> that they could have 4 Oscars in their 20 gallon tank. The man
> said..well it says here that they grow to 12" long. The manager
> said.."Oh they only grow to the size of their tank."
> I caught up to the couple as they were in another part of the store and
> explained the facts. As I was checking out they came to thank me and
> had some live bearers in a bag instead.
> Some of the most stupid things I've heard in this hobby came from
> either a Petsmart employee or a PetCo employee. Both of which claim
> they have "pet specialists" or "experts in the hobby". Sadly, only a
> handful do.
> There's a PetCo out by my Ma's house. They actually do have a lady that
> knows her stuff, and quite well. She tells me all the time that she's
> so close to quiting because she's the only one who knows anything in
> the entire store.
> I keep on her..Please...don't quit! Teach them....don't quit, please!!!
> I haven't seen her in a while. I wonder if she finally had enough.
>

[Tynk]

Gill Passman wrote:
> Tynk wrote:
> > Steve wrote:
> >
> >>Tynk wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>>Last night...in Petsmart looking for Fluke tabs, as were suggested to
> >>>me for my skinny Clown Loach, I took a gander at their fish selection
> >>>(not that I would buy any from there).
> >>>I witnessed:
> >>>Angelfish showing obvious symptoms of the Angelfish virus (aka Discus
> >>>plague), Ich..MANY tanks had Ich, Some tanks had fish swirling
> >>>uncontrolably, fish scratching off decor, Gourami with a large lesion
> >>>and Oscars that were thin as paper, as well as some Gourmis the same
> >>>way.
> >>>Things like this can be seen on any typical day. This is nothing out of
> >>>the ordinary.
> >>
> >>Oh cow droppings :) ! We recently got a Petsmart in this Canadian town,
> >>and their fish seem fine. They have two fancy central filtration
> >>systems, and the staff seem knowledgeable.
> >>
> >>Our Walmart is another story all together.
> >>
> >>Just do not purchase livestock from a store that has many sick fish,
> >>and/ or practices poor maintenance of their tanks.
> >>
> >>I'm convinced that Derek Benson has a point. It's probably better to
> >>place new, apparently healthy fish into your main aquarium, instead of
> >>into a cramped, potentially unhealthy quarantine tank. Just don't
> >>transfer the fish store water into your aquariums; only transfer the fish.
> >>
> >>I've owned quarantine tanks, but they tend to become permanent homes for
> >>fish, therefore established aquariums. I suspect that's the case with
> >>most aquarium hobbyists.
> >>
> >>Steve
> >
> >
> > We recently got a Petsmart in this Canadian town,
> >
> >>and their fish seem fine. They have two fancy central filtration
> >>systems, and the staff seem knowledgeable.
> >
> >
> > Keyword..recently.
> > The Petsmart's around here (IL, USA) have been around for a good 15-16
> > yrs. They all pretty much look like they have good stock at first.
> > Then the problems willstart, unless they do things differently from
> > what they do in the States.
> > The "fancy" filtration is one of their main downfalls.
> > Instead of a batch of diseased fish being contained to that tank, it is
> > spread throughout the entire system, and therefore to all the tanks.
> > The Goldfish are on their own system, and the rest of the fish are on
> > the other one. There is a UV sterilizer for the system, but it is
> > problem plagued.
> > I've heard many employees say that they don't know how to use it, that
> > it isn't used, that it burnt out months ago and no one fixed it, etc
> > etc.
> > They have these lights at the top of the tanks. Once a red light was
> > lit up and I asked the employee what it meant. He said "oh that just
> > means the UV's not on, and we never use it anyway, so it doesn't
> > matter".
> > I couldn't believe it. They have it available, yet don't use it.
> > I personally know one of the employees at a local Petsmart. The stories
> > she tells me are unreal.
> > They are told to lie to folks just to make the sale.
> > The employees are also lied to. The lady I know is aware that I breed
> > Angelfish. She asked me about the Angelfish virus because she would
> > have been a baby when it first hit the US in the late 80's.
> > Their store's Angels are showing obvious symptoms of it. The company
> > told their employees that the angels are NOT sick, it's because of a pH
> > difference. That's a bunch of "cow droppings".
> > If your Petsmart has knowledgeable employees you are one very lucky.
> > Most do not. That is not an exaggeration.
> >
> > It's probably better to
> >
> >>place new, apparently healthy fish into your main aquarium, instead of
> >>into a cramped, potentially unhealthy quarantine tank.
> >
> >
> > Who said anything about a quarantine tank being cramped?
> > I've been around long enough to know better than to put an "apparently
> > healthy" fish into my main tanks. Again, there's too m any things you
> > cannot see on the outside of a fish.
> > Not to even mention certain diseases that have a certain gestation
> > period.
> > Look at the Angelvirus. Gestation is 2 weeks!!!
> > That means you can have an apparently healthy looking Angelfish...and
> > if I followed yours and Derek's adive and put it into the main tank,
> > I'd be killing every one of my fish, as that new fish is a "dead fish
> > swimming", as I like to call them.
> > Fish TB...can take months, to never to show outward signs on a fish,
> > yet that fish can infect every fish in your house.
> > There's a number of other virus' that can't be seen. Fish may look fine
> > for a while, and then just start dropping like flies.
> > Bettas get a virus that takes about a week to 2 to show up.
> > The look perfect AS they're dying.
> > Mr. Benson has not seen enough of these diseases to know how common
> > they are, and that was why I wondered if the country he lived in had a
> > practice of quarantining before fish are available to the public. That
> > would make sense as to why he claims he never sees sick fish in shops.
> > Being that you're in Canada, maybe things are done differently as well.
> > Why not give a jingle and ask your local shops.
> >
> So with the case of TB it is unlikely that this would emerge during the
> "standard" quarantine period...which I would imagine is around the 2
> week period...
>
> I bought some Clowns and Neon Tetras a few weeks ago and quarantined
> them prior to adding them to my main Community Tank. The Clowns hid all
> the time meaning that I didn't spot the Ich that killed them until it
> was too late. Also during this period I bought another 3 Clown Loaches
> and put them straight into the Community Tank (without the water). These
> Clowns were confident and out in the centre of the tank most of the time
> so I was able to monitor them. Sadly, the QT Clowns and 1 of the Neons
> died so I moved the remaining 5 Neons into a clean 5 gall tank. 2 more
> Neons died (I'm guessing the Ich). I kept the remaining three in QT for
> another 10 days or so and continued the Ich treatment. I then decided it
> was safe to move them into my established tank as they no longer showed
> any signs of ich - this was over 3 weeks in QT for these fish. They have
> been in the Community tank for just over two weeks now...and yep...a
> couple of days ago I noticed the tell tale white spots on the
> Clowns...thankfully it is responding well to treatment this time.
>
> So the question has to be how long do you need to quarantine fish before
> adding them into the main tank? I would have hoped that 3 weeks plus
> would have been long enough but obviously not.
>
> The only safe thing I can think of for my fish based on current
> experience is to not add anything at all (including plants), which of
> course is never going to happen. I think the point I'm trying to make is
> that in my experience putting the fish into quarantine hasn't actually
> made any difference - I may as well have put them straight into the
> Community Tank as the result is the same....
>
> Of course the other thing is to try and buy healthy fish but my recent
> experience is that this is also becoming increasingly difficult but the
> places I use to allow the fish time to "acclimitize" before selling them...
>
> Gill

> So with the case of TB it is unlikely that this would emerge during the
> "standard" quarantine period...which I would imagine is around the 2
> week period...
>
Well, TB in an add one.
It can show up right away or a fish can be a carrier and never show any
signs of "active" TB, yet put that fish into a tank and you can have
fish showing obvious symtpoms in a week. That's my own personal
experience with a time line, as the infected Betta was quarantined a
week (I shortened the Q for some reason to which I thought was valid at
the time, but it really wouldn't have mattered because the Betta lived
a while without ever showing outward symptoms).

> So the question has to be how long do you need to quarantine fish before
> adding them into the main tank? I would have hoped that 3 weeks plus
> would have been long enough but obviously not.
>
Ah...Clown loaches are a "horse of a different color", if you know what
I mean.
Seems like you can rearange a plant and they get Ich. They succumb to
it quite easily, and Ich is always in your tank.
Once I get some into the main tank without Ich, I don't move them. If
they succumb to it in the main tank, I first up the temp and add a
little salt. Of course water changes too!! If they get worse or do not
fight it off themselves, I'll hit the whole tank with half dose Quick
Cure. I tried RidIch for scaleless fish and they died before that med
could do anything to the Ich.
So, I won't stray from Quick Cure again.
Just make sure other tank mates can handle the half dosing of it.
Snails..nope. I've been told African Dwarf Frogs are both fine with it
and that it will kill them. So, I simply remove any if I have them.
Same with large (good) snails.
When it comes to Clown Loaches and Ich....seems it's just going to be a
factor somewhere down the line, sooner or later.

I think the point I'm trying to make is
> that in my experience putting the fish into quarantine hasn't actually
> made any difference - I may as well have put them straight into the
> Community Tank as the result is the same....

Yes, I see what you're saying. But remember,the Clowns are in their own
section when it comes to Ich.

[Tynk]

Bill Stock wrote:
> "Tynk" > wrote in message
> ups.com...
> >
> > Bill Stock wrote:
> >> "Tynk" > wrote in message
> >> ups.com...
> >> >I thought I remembered you saying in a post "when you were in the
> >> > States"..or something like that.
> >> > Is it possible that things are done differently in the country you are
> >> > in now, like quarantining fish before they're made available to the
> >> > general public?
> >> > This could be the reason for your claims that most of the fish i the
> >> > shops are healthy.
> >> > In the US, go into any shop and look into any of the tanks. You will no
> >> > doubtedly sick fish. (rarely do any shops quarantine before the fish
> >> > are in the dispaly/for sale tanks here. )
> >> > This would possibly explain your claims.
> >> > People in the US know exactly what I mean by saying that you can go
> >> > into any shop and see diseased fish for sale.
> >> > Last night...in Petsmart looking for Fluke tabs, as were suggested to
> >> > me for my skinny Clown Loach, I took a gander at their fish selection
> >> > (not that I would buy any from there).
> >> > I witnessed:
> >> > Angelfish showing obvious symptoms of the Angelfish virus (aka Discus
> >> > plague), Ich..MANY tanks had Ich, Some tanks had fish swirling
> >> > uncontrolably, fish scratching off decor, Gourami with a large lesion
> >> > and Oscars that were thin as paper, as well as some Gourmis the same
> >> > way.
> >> > Things like this can be seen on any typical day. This is nothing out of
> >> > the ordinary.
> >> > As for the Angels with the Angel virus, PetsMart denies the existance
> >> > of the Virus' existance. Unreal.
> >> > So, could it be possible that it's the norm for your shops to
> >> > quarantine before you even see the fish available to you?
> >> >
> >>
> >> Probably more about picking a good fish store and a bit of luck. I
> >> started
> >> up my tropical tank about six months ago and I bought most of the fish in
> >> two batches (21 fish in all) from the same Chinese fish shop. Since I was
> >> starting fresh I did not quarantine them, besides they were from four
> >> different tanks, so I would have needed four quarantine tanks (or mucho
> >> patience). I added three Otos from PetsMart about three months ago and
> >> did
> >> not quarantine these either, as I was worried about their transition
> >> issues.
> >> One of the Oto's was never quite as perky as the other two and I did lose
> >> it
> >> about a month ago. I also added two more Loaches from Big Als about a
> >> month
> >> ago and DID quarantine these, as the tank is "established" now.
> >>
> >> I seem to have worse luck adding Goldfish to the pond, losing up to 50%
> >> of
> >> Walmart fish and only 10% of Big Als feeder fish. So I think it's more
> >> about
> >> the store than the country?
> >>
> >
> >
> >> Probably more about picking a good fish store and a bit of luck.
> >> I'm not in the U.S. either BTW.
>
>
> > What country are you in?
>
> Canada.
>
> > Good fish stores are hard to come by in the States. It didn't used to
> > be like this 30 yrs ago.
> > A few weeks ago I was explaining to a local shop's employee how to sex
> > live bearers because the customer he was waiting on wanted a male and
> > female platy.
> > Now a days it seems like the folks working at shops are in for the
> > paycheck, not for love of the hobby.
> > There some good shops left, but they are very hard to come by these
> > days.
>
> Yes, I've seen some very experience people in Big Als and also a few noobs.
> The local PetsMart always amazes me, some very knowledgeable young people in
> their. Not quite up to dedicated fish shore snuff, but damn good. They must
> have a decent manager.
>
> > Some of which the owners are getting much older and rely on younger
> > help. These kids just need a paycheck. I've outright asked one of the
> > kids at a different local shop. I was told "I don't care, I just need
> > the money."
> > As more and more chain stores pop up,the smaller shops close down.
> > We're left with these mega marts that are all about the cash.
> > WalMart's...oh geez!
> > Several years back I was at a local WalMart and as I was getting cat
> > litter I saw a tank..one tank full of male Bettas ripping the crap out
> > of each other.
> > All of them were shredded...about 20 males in a 10g tank.
> > I called for the pet dept. guy and I said they have to get those males
> > into separate tanks.
> > The guy said to me..."Oh they're fine like that. They won't fight if
> > there's a bunch of them kept together." I told him to look at the
> > condition of the Bettas in that tank and again, I was told that they'd
> > be fine.
> > I let him know that I'm a breeder of Bettas and that there is NO WAY
> > that if you kept a bunch of males in one tank that they would not
> > fight, and it was obvious and they were all fighting in front of the
> > guys eyes.
> > He still refused to separate them and so I called for the store manager
> > to come.
> > He , the store manager knew about Bettas and told the pet dept. guy off
> > good and made him separate them all right then.
> > The pet dept. guy had a new department after that disaster. Thank
> > goodness.
>
> Yes, Walmart's a bit of a sad case. That's where I got my Betta in a Bucket
> (Cup). Fortuanetly he's doing fine.
>
>
> > I kind of think he just liked watching them fight.
> > A local Meijer store had an employee that kept putting the males into
> > each others container to watch them fight. They had him on tape doing
> > it repeatedly and he fired over it. (I found this out because I'm
> > friendly with the lady that took over that section of the store).
> > Last year when one of a few local Petsmart's opened it's doors it had a
> > large grand opening sale. Good sales on dog food and fish supplies, so
> > off we went.
> > I happened to over hear the fish dept. manager explaining to a couple
> > that they could have 4 Oscars in their 20 gallon tank. The man
> > said..well it says here that they grow to 12" long. The manager
> > said.."Oh they only grow to the size of their tank."
> > I caught up to the couple as they were in another part of the store and
> > explained the facts. As I was checking out they came to thank me and
> > had some live bearers in a bag instead.
> > Some of the most stupid things I've heard in this hobby came from
> > either a Petsmart employee or a PetCo employee. Both of which claim
> > they have "pet specialists" or "experts in the hobby". Sadly, only a
> > handful do.
> > There's a PetCo out by my Ma's house. They actually do have a lady that
> > knows her stuff, and quite well. She tells me all the time that she's
> > so close to quiting because she's the only one who knows anything in
> > the entire store.
> > I keep on her..Please...don't quit! Teach them....don't quit, please!!!
> > I haven't seen her in a while. I wonder if she finally had enough.
> >

> Yes, I've seen some very experience people in Big Als and also a few noobs.
> The local PetsMart always amazes me, some very knowledgeable young people in
> their. Not quite up to dedicated fish shore snuff, but damn good. They must
> have a decent manager.
Just realize you are very lucky to have a PetsMart with folks working
there that are knowledgeable. I wish our's were in the US. It's not
just in my state either. I know folks across this country that say the
same.
Sure there are a few good ones here and there acorss the US, however,
they are very rare here.

[Ali Day]

"Tynk" > wrote in message
ups.com...
>I thought I remembered you saying in a post "when you were in the
> States"..or something like that.
> Is it possible that things are done differently in the country you are
> in now, like quarantining fish before they're made available to the
> general public?
> This could be the reason for your claims that most of the fish i the
> shops are healthy.
> In the US, go into any shop and look into any of the tanks. You will no
> doubtedly sick fish. (rarely do any shops quarantine before the fish
> are in the dispaly/for sale tanks here. )

Can knock the French for some things, but most of the shops I visit here are
impeccable, except one nearby who have great tanks but insist on selling
little Betta jars.

[NetMax]

"Tynk" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> Gill Passman wrote:
>> Tynk wrote:
>> > Steve wrote:
>> >>Tynk wrote:
<snip>

>> So the question has to be how long do you need to quarantine fish before
>> adding them into the main tank? I would have hoped that 3 weeks plus
>> would have been long enough but obviously not.
>>
> Ah...Clown loaches are a "horse of a different color", if you know what
> I mean.
> Seems like you can rearange a plant and they get Ich. They succumb to
> it quite easily, and Ich is always in your tank.

I've read credible studies which state (claim?) that Ich cannot persist in
water, as it's continually moving through its life cycle. It will lengthen
its lifecycle in colder water, and it can make itself less apparent by
feeding off of gill tissues, but it cannot persist without a host and going
through the life cycle. My personal opinion and experience agrees with
this. It can stay at a low level for a long time, giving the impression of
virtual Ich, especially in LFS, but in a closed loop (home tank) it will
certainly die off 100%. There have also been credible hobbyists whose
experience does not agree with this, and they reported Ich flare ups, but it
lacked scientific rigour (easier to prove no Ich than to prove virtual Ich).
ymmv

ps: I also prefer Quick Cure after using many brands at work.
--
www.NetMax.tk

> Once I get some into the main tank without Ich, I don't move them. If
> they succumb to it in the main tank, I first up the temp and add a
> little salt. Of course water changes too!! If they get worse or do not
> fight it off themselves, I'll hit the whole tank with half dose Quick
> Cure. I tried RidIch for scaleless fish and they died before that med
> could do anything to the Ich.
> So, I won't stray from Quick Cure again.
> Just make sure other tank mates can handle the half dosing of it.
> Snails..nope. I've been told African Dwarf Frogs are both fine with it
> and that it will kill them. So, I simply remove any if I have them.
> Same with large (good) snails.
> When it comes to Clown Loaches and Ich....seems it's just going to be a
> factor somewhere down the line, sooner or later.
>
> I think the point I'm trying to make is
>> that in my experience putting the fish into quarantine hasn't actually
>> made any difference - I may as well have put them straight into the
>> Community Tank as the result is the same....
>
> Yes, I see what you're saying. But remember,the Clowns are in their own
> section when it comes to Ich.

[Tynk]

NetMax wrote:
> "Tynk" > wrote in message
> oups.com...
> > Gill Passman wrote:
> >> Tynk wrote:
> >> > Steve wrote:
> >> >>Tynk wrote:
> <snip>
>
> >> So the question has to be how long do you need to quarantine fish before
> >> adding them into the main tank? I would have hoped that 3 weeks plus
> >> would have been long enough but obviously not.
> >>
> > Ah...Clown loaches are a "horse of a different color", if you know what
> > I mean.
> > Seems like you can rearange a plant and they get Ich. They succumb to
> > it quite easily, and Ich is always in your tank.
>
> I've read credible studies which state (claim?) that Ich cannot persist in
> water, as it's continually moving through its life cycle. It will lengthen
> its lifecycle in colder water, and it can make itself less apparent by
> feeding off of gill tissues, but it cannot persist without a host and going
> through the life cycle. My personal opinion and experience agrees with
> this. It can stay at a low level for a long time, giving the impression of
> virtual Ich, especially in LFS, but in a closed loop (home tank) it will
> certainly die off 100%. There have also been credible hobbyists whose
> experience does not agree with this, and they reported Ich flare ups, but it
> lacked scientific rigour (easier to prove no Ich than to prove virtual Ich).
> ymmv
>
> ps: I also prefer Quick Cure after using many brands at work.
> --
> www.NetMax.tk
>
> > Once I get some into the main tank without Ich, I don't move them. If
> > they succumb to it in the main tank, I first up the temp and add a
> > little salt. Of course water changes too!! If they get worse or do not
> > fight it off themselves, I'll hit the whole tank with half dose Quick
> > Cure. I tried RidIch for scaleless fish and they died before that med
> > could do anything to the Ich.
> > So, I won't stray from Quick Cure again.
> > Just make sure other tank mates can handle the half dosing of it.
> > Snails..nope. I've been told African Dwarf Frogs are both fine with it
> > and that it will kill them. So, I simply remove any if I have them.
> > Same with large (good) snails.
> > When it comes to Clown Loaches and Ich....seems it's just going to be a
> > factor somewhere down the line, sooner or later.
> >
> > I think the point I'm trying to make is
> >> that in my experience putting the fish into quarantine hasn't actually
> >> made any difference - I may as well have put them straight into the
> >> Community Tank as the result is the same....
> >
> > Yes, I see what you're saying. But remember,the Clowns are in their own
> > section when it comes to Ich.

There have also been credible hobbyists whose
> experience does not agree with this, and they reported Ich flare ups, but it
> lacked scientific rigour (easier to prove no Ich than to prove virtual Ich).
> ymmv
>
> ps: I also prefer Quick Cure after using many brands at work.

I used to be of those Hobbyists that just didn't buy into Ich is always
in your tank. That was until a 29g had a breakout after it was set up
for years without ever an Ich breakout. No new fish in years, as it was
Angelfish tank which held old breeders and some younger singles.
Nothing new in years. No plants, no fish, no snails, just the same
fish.
I had a heater break down during a very cold winter (recored temps),
and low and behold they broke out with Ich.
I cannot explain how they got it. They never had it before. Actually,
none of those Angels ever had it before this. It was also the first Ich
outbreak in that tank, so having absolutely no explanation for it, I
figured it had to be in there anyway. The temp on that tank was always
at 80*f (except for the heater failure).
I'm not scientist, just a hobbyist and I couldn't explain / understand
how the boogers got into that tank, but they did somehow.
P.S....quaratine tanks have their own equipment which is bleached when
something arrises in those tanks.

On the subject of liking Quick Cure as well, what is it with that med
that makes it work better than another brand with the same ingredients.
I don't get that either, but the stuff just works the best and it's
dirt cheap too. = )~

[Gill Passman]

Tynk wrote:
> NetMax wrote:
>
>>"Tynk" > wrote in message
oups.com...
>>
>>>Gill Passman wrote:
>>>
>>>>Tynk wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>Steve wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>Tynk wrote:
>>
>><snip>
>>
>>>>So the question has to be how long do you need to quarantine fish before
>>>>adding them into the main tank? I would have hoped that 3 weeks plus
>>>>would have been long enough but obviously not.
>>>>
>>>
>>>Ah...Clown loaches are a "horse of a different color", if you know what
>>>I mean.
>>>Seems like you can rearange a plant and they get Ich. They succumb to
>>>it quite easily, and Ich is always in your tank.
>>
>>I've read credible studies which state (claim?) that Ich cannot persist in
>>water, as it's continually moving through its life cycle. It will lengthen
>>its lifecycle in colder water, and it can make itself less apparent by
>>feeding off of gill tissues, but it cannot persist without a host and going
>>through the life cycle. My personal opinion and experience agrees with
>>this. It can stay at a low level for a long time, giving the impression of
>>virtual Ich, especially in LFS, but in a closed loop (home tank) it will
>>certainly die off 100%. There have also been credible hobbyists whose
>>experience does not agree with this, and they reported Ich flare ups, but it
>>lacked scientific rigour (easier to prove no Ich than to prove virtual Ich).
>>ymmv
>>
>>ps: I also prefer Quick Cure after using many brands at work.
>>--
>>www.NetMax.tk
>>
>>
>>>Once I get some into the main tank without Ich, I don't move them. If
>>>they succumb to it in the main tank, I first up the temp and add a
>>>little salt. Of course water changes too!! If they get worse or do not
>>>fight it off themselves, I'll hit the whole tank with half dose Quick
>>>Cure. I tried RidIch for scaleless fish and they died before that med
>>>could do anything to the Ich.
>>>So, I won't stray from Quick Cure again.
>>>Just make sure other tank mates can handle the half dosing of it.
>>>Snails..nope. I've been told African Dwarf Frogs are both fine with it
>>>and that it will kill them. So, I simply remove any if I have them.
>>>Same with large (good) snails.
>>>When it comes to Clown Loaches and Ich....seems it's just going to be a
>>>factor somewhere down the line, sooner or later.
>>>
>>>I think the point I'm trying to make is
>>>
>>>>that in my experience putting the fish into quarantine hasn't actually
>>>>made any difference - I may as well have put them straight into the
>>>>Community Tank as the result is the same....
>>>
>>>Yes, I see what you're saying. But remember,the Clowns are in their own
>>>section when it comes to Ich.
>
>
> There have also been credible hobbyists whose
>
>>experience does not agree with this, and they reported Ich flare ups, but it
>>lacked scientific rigour (easier to prove no Ich than to prove virtual Ich).
>>ymmv
>>
>>ps: I also prefer Quick Cure after using many brands at work.
>
>
> I used to be of those Hobbyists that just didn't buy into Ich is always
> in your tank. That was until a 29g had a breakout after it was set up
> for years without ever an Ich breakout. No new fish in years, as it was
> Angelfish tank which held old breeders and some younger singles.
> Nothing new in years. No plants, no fish, no snails, just the same
> fish.
> I had a heater break down during a very cold winter (recored temps),
> and low and behold they broke out with Ich.
> I cannot explain how they got it. They never had it before. Actually,
> none of those Angels ever had it before this. It was also the first Ich
> outbreak in that tank, so having absolutely no explanation for it, I
> figured it had to be in there anyway. The temp on that tank was always
> at 80*f (except for the heater failure).
> I'm not scientist, just a hobbyist and I couldn't explain / understand
> how the boogers got into that tank, but they did somehow.
> P.S....quaratine tanks have their own equipment which is bleached when
> something arrises in those tanks.
>
> On the subject of liking Quick Cure as well, what is it with that med
> that makes it work better than another brand with the same ingredients.
> I don't get that either, but the stuff just works the best and it's
> dirt cheap too. = )~
>

Quick Cure is one of the number of meds not available in the UK... :-( -
along with decent rapid cycling bacteria :-(

Maybe one day.....

Gill

[NetMax]

"Gill Passman" > wrote in message
.. .
> Tynk wrote:
>> NetMax wrote:
>>
>>>"Tynk" > wrote in message
oups.com...
>>>
>>>>Gill Passman wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>Tynk wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>Steve wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Tynk wrote:
>>>
>>><snip>
>>>
>>>>>So the question has to be how long do you need to quarantine fish
>>>>>before
>>>>>adding them into the main tank? I would have hoped that 3 weeks plus
>>>>>would have been long enough but obviously not.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Ah...Clown loaches are a "horse of a different color", if you know what
>>>>I mean.
>>>>Seems like you can rearange a plant and they get Ich. They succumb to
>>>>it quite easily, and Ich is always in your tank.
>>>
>>>I've read credible studies which state (claim?) that Ich cannot persist
>>>in
>>>water, as it's continually moving through its life cycle. It will
>>>lengthen
>>>its lifecycle in colder water, and it can make itself less apparent by
>>>feeding off of gill tissues, but it cannot persist without a host and
>>>going
>>>through the life cycle. My personal opinion and experience agrees with
>>>this. It can stay at a low level for a long time, giving the impression
>>>of
>>>virtual Ich, especially in LFS, but in a closed loop (home tank) it will
>>>certainly die off 100%. There have also been credible hobbyists whose
>>>experience does not agree with this, and they reported Ich flare ups, but
>>>it
>>>lacked scientific rigour (easier to prove no Ich than to prove virtual
>>>Ich).
>>>ymmv
>>>
>>>ps: I also prefer Quick Cure after using many brands at work.
>>>--
>>>www.NetMax.tk
>>>
>>>
>>>>Once I get some into the main tank without Ich, I don't move them. If
>>>>they succumb to it in the main tank, I first up the temp and add a
>>>>little salt. Of course water changes too!! If they get worse or do not
>>>>fight it off themselves, I'll hit the whole tank with half dose Quick
>>>>Cure. I tried RidIch for scaleless fish and they died before that med
>>>>could do anything to the Ich.
>>>>So, I won't stray from Quick Cure again.
>>>>Just make sure other tank mates can handle the half dosing of it.
>>>>Snails..nope. I've been told African Dwarf Frogs are both fine with it
>>>>and that it will kill them. So, I simply remove any if I have them.
>>>>Same with large (good) snails.
>>>>When it comes to Clown Loaches and Ich....seems it's just going to be a
>>>>factor somewhere down the line, sooner or later.
>>>>
>>>>I think the point I'm trying to make is
>>>>
>>>>>that in my experience putting the fish into quarantine hasn't actually
>>>>>made any difference - I may as well have put them straight into the
>>>>>Community Tank as the result is the same....
>>>>
>>>>Yes, I see what you're saying. But remember,the Clowns are in their own
>>>>section when it comes to Ich.
>>
>>
>> There have also been credible hobbyists whose
>>
>>>experience does not agree with this, and they reported Ich flare ups, but
>>>it
>>>lacked scientific rigour (easier to prove no Ich than to prove virtual
>>>Ich).
>>>ymmv
>>>
>>>ps: I also prefer Quick Cure after using many brands at work.
>>
>>
>> I used to be of those Hobbyists that just didn't buy into Ich is always
>> in your tank. That was until a 29g had a breakout after it was set up
>> for years without ever an Ich breakout. No new fish in years, as it was
>> Angelfish tank which held old breeders and some younger singles.
>> Nothing new in years. No plants, no fish, no snails, just the same
>> fish.
>> I had a heater break down during a very cold winter (recored temps),
>> and low and behold they broke out with Ich.
>> I cannot explain how they got it. They never had it before. Actually,
>> none of those Angels ever had it before this. It was also the first Ich
>> outbreak in that tank, so having absolutely no explanation for it, I
>> figured it had to be in there anyway. The temp on that tank was always
>> at 80*f (except for the heater failure).
>> I'm not scientist, just a hobbyist and I couldn't explain / understand
>> how the boogers got into that tank, but they did somehow.
>> P.S....quaratine tanks have their own equipment which is bleached when
>> something arrises in those tanks.
>>
>> On the subject of liking Quick Cure as well, what is it with that med
>> that makes it work better than another brand with the same ingredients.
>> I don't get that either, but the stuff just works the best and it's
>> dirt cheap too. = )~
>>
>
> Quick Cure is one of the number of meds not available in the UK... :-( -
> along with decent rapid cycling bacteria :-(
>
> Maybe one day.....
>
> Gill


re: Quick Cure, maybe the concentration? iirc it is just malachite green
and formalin. Rid Ich I think used a different dye or carrier (can't
remember which), but you are right. The malachite green/formalin is the
staple for a lot of meds. As for cheap, the supplier sent me three 1 gal.
jugs for the store opening.

re: UK, Australia I think has similar problems getting certain products and
is quite expensive for the ones they can get. This is ironic being right
beside places like Thailand & Singapore where there are so many fish, meds
and aquarium equipment.

Canada is much better. I rarely have to smuggle anything in from the US
anymore ;~).
--
www.NetMax.tk

[Tynk]

Gill Passman wrote:
> Tynk wrote:
> > NetMax wrote:
> >
> >>"Tynk" > wrote in message
> oups.com...
> >>
> >>>Gill Passman wrote:
> >>>
> >>>>Tynk wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>>Steve wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>>Tynk wrote:
> >>
> >><snip>
> >>
> >>>>So the question has to be how long do you need to quarantine fish before
> >>>>adding them into the main tank? I would have hoped that 3 weeks plus
> >>>>would have been long enough but obviously not.
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>>Ah...Clown loaches are a "horse of a different color", if you know what
> >>>I mean.
> >>>Seems like you can rearange a plant and they get Ich. They succumb to
> >>>it quite easily, and Ich is always in your tank.
> >>
> >>I've read credible studies which state (claim?) that Ich cannot persist in
> >>water, as it's continually moving through its life cycle. It will lengthen
> >>its lifecycle in colder water, and it can make itself less apparent by
> >>feeding off of gill tissues, but it cannot persist without a host and going
> >>through the life cycle. My personal opinion and experience agrees with
> >>this. It can stay at a low level for a long time, giving the impression of
> >>virtual Ich, especially in LFS, but in a closed loop (home tank) it will
> >>certainly die off 100%. There have also been credible hobbyists whose
> >>experience does not agree with this, and they reported Ich flare ups, but it
> >>lacked scientific rigour (easier to prove no Ich than to prove virtual Ich).
> >>ymmv
> >>
> >>ps: I also prefer Quick Cure after using many brands at work.
> >>--
> >>www.NetMax.tk
> >>
> >>
> >>>Once I get some into the main tank without Ich, I don't move them. If
> >>>they succumb to it in the main tank, I first up the temp and add a
> >>>little salt. Of course water changes too!! If they get worse or do not
> >>>fight it off themselves, I'll hit the whole tank with half dose Quick
> >>>Cure. I tried RidIch for scaleless fish and they died before that med
> >>>could do anything to the Ich.
> >>>So, I won't stray from Quick Cure again.
> >>>Just make sure other tank mates can handle the half dosing of it.
> >>>Snails..nope. I've been told African Dwarf Frogs are both fine with it
> >>>and that it will kill them. So, I simply remove any if I have them.
> >>>Same with large (good) snails.
> >>>When it comes to Clown Loaches and Ich....seems it's just going to be a
> >>>factor somewhere down the line, sooner or later.
> >>>
> >>>I think the point I'm trying to make is
> >>>
> >>>>that in my experience putting the fish into quarantine hasn't actually
> >>>>made any difference - I may as well have put them straight into the
> >>>>Community Tank as the result is the same....
> >>>
> >>>Yes, I see what you're saying. But remember,the Clowns are in their own
> >>>section when it comes to Ich.
> >
> >
> > There have also been credible hobbyists whose
> >
> >>experience does not agree with this, and they reported Ich flare ups, but it
> >>lacked scientific rigour (easier to prove no Ich than to prove virtual Ich).
> >>ymmv
> >>
> >>ps: I also prefer Quick Cure after using many brands at work.
> >
> >
> > I used to be of those Hobbyists that just didn't buy into Ich is always
> > in your tank. That was until a 29g had a breakout after it was set up
> > for years without ever an Ich breakout. No new fish in years, as it was
> > Angelfish tank which held old breeders and some younger singles.
> > Nothing new in years. No plants, no fish, no snails, just the same
> > fish.
> > I had a heater break down during a very cold winter (recored temps),
> > and low and behold they broke out with Ich.
> > I cannot explain how they got it. They never had it before. Actually,
> > none of those Angels ever had it before this. It was also the first Ich
> > outbreak in that tank, so having absolutely no explanation for it, I
> > figured it had to be in there anyway. The temp on that tank was always
> > at 80*f (except for the heater failure).
> > I'm not scientist, just a hobbyist and I couldn't explain / understand
> > how the boogers got into that tank, but they did somehow.
> > P.S....quaratine tanks have their own equipment which is bleached when
> > something arrises in those tanks.
> >
> > On the subject of liking Quick Cure as well, what is it with that med
> > that makes it work better than another brand with the same ingredients.
> > I don't get that either, but the stuff just works the best and it's
> > dirt cheap too. = )~
> >
>
> Quick Cure is one of the number of meds not available in the UK... :-( -
> along with decent rapid cycling bacteria :-(
>
> Maybe one day.....
>
> Gill

> Quick Cure is one of the number of meds not available in the UK... :-( -
> along with decent rapid cycling bacteria :-(

Oh wow!
Maybe...just maybe you could have some shipped to you from say like a
person who works in a shop, hint hint N.M....and just pay the cost and
S&H. A tiny bottle goes a long way, as it's one drop per gallon.
I've been through many horrible diseases and virus' in my time in this
hobby and I only have Quick Cure, Jungle brand Fungus Eliminator (works
on both true and faux fungus) and salt in my fishy Rx cabinet. It's
good stuff maynerd!

[Gill Passman]

Tynk wrote:
> Gill Passman wrote:
>
>>Tynk wrote:
>>
>>>NetMax wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>"Tynk" > wrote in message
oups.com...
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>Gill Passman wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>Tynk wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Steve wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Tynk wrote:
>>>>
>>>><snip>
>>>>
>>>>>>So the question has to be how long do you need to quarantine fish before
>>>>>>adding them into the main tank? I would have hoped that 3 weeks plus
>>>>>>would have been long enough but obviously not.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>Ah...Clown loaches are a "horse of a different color", if you know what
>>>>>I mean.
>>>>>Seems like you can rearange a plant and they get Ich. They succumb to
>>>>>it quite easily, and Ich is always in your tank.
>>>>
>>>>I've read credible studies which state (claim?) that Ich cannot persist in
>>>>water, as it's continually moving through its life cycle. It will lengthen
>>>>its lifecycle in colder water, and it can make itself less apparent by
>>>>feeding off of gill tissues, but it cannot persist without a host and going
>>>>through the life cycle. My personal opinion and experience agrees with
>>>>this. It can stay at a low level for a long time, giving the impression of
>>>>virtual Ich, especially in LFS, but in a closed loop (home tank) it will
>>>>certainly die off 100%. There have also been credible hobbyists whose
>>>>experience does not agree with this, and they reported Ich flare ups, but it
>>>>lacked scientific rigour (easier to prove no Ich than to prove virtual Ich).
>>>>ymmv
>>>>
>>>>ps: I also prefer Quick Cure after using many brands at work.
>>>>--
>>>>www.NetMax.tk
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>Once I get some into the main tank without Ich, I don't move them. If
>>>>>they succumb to it in the main tank, I first up the temp and add a
>>>>>little salt. Of course water changes too!! If they get worse or do not
>>>>>fight it off themselves, I'll hit the whole tank with half dose Quick
>>>>>Cure. I tried RidIch for scaleless fish and they died before that med
>>>>>could do anything to the Ich.
>>>>>So, I won't stray from Quick Cure again.
>>>>>Just make sure other tank mates can handle the half dosing of it.
>>>>>Snails..nope. I've been told African Dwarf Frogs are both fine with it
>>>>>and that it will kill them. So, I simply remove any if I have them.
>>>>>Same with large (good) snails.
>>>>>When it comes to Clown Loaches and Ich....seems it's just going to be a
>>>>>factor somewhere down the line, sooner or later.
>>>>>
>>>>>I think the point I'm trying to make is
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>that in my experience putting the fish into quarantine hasn't actually
>>>>>>made any difference - I may as well have put them straight into the
>>>>>>Community Tank as the result is the same....
>>>>>
>>>>>Yes, I see what you're saying. But remember,the Clowns are in their own
>>>>>section when it comes to Ich.
>>>
>>>
>>> There have also been credible hobbyists whose
>>>
>>>
>>>>experience does not agree with this, and they reported Ich flare ups, but it
>>>>lacked scientific rigour (easier to prove no Ich than to prove virtual Ich).
>>>>ymmv
>>>>
>>>>ps: I also prefer Quick Cure after using many brands at work.
>>>
>>>
>>>I used to be of those Hobbyists that just didn't buy into Ich is always
>>>in your tank. That was until a 29g had a breakout after it was set up
>>>for years without ever an Ich breakout. No new fish in years, as it was
>>>Angelfish tank which held old breeders and some younger singles.
>>>Nothing new in years. No plants, no fish, no snails, just the same
>>>fish.
>>>I had a heater break down during a very cold winter (recored temps),
>>>and low and behold they broke out with Ich.
>>>I cannot explain how they got it. They never had it before. Actually,
>>>none of those Angels ever had it before this. It was also the first Ich
>>>outbreak in that tank, so having absolutely no explanation for it, I
>>>figured it had to be in there anyway. The temp on that tank was always
>>>at 80*f (except for the heater failure).
>>>I'm not scientist, just a hobbyist and I couldn't explain / understand
>>>how the boogers got into that tank, but they did somehow.
>>>P.S....quaratine tanks have their own equipment which is bleached when
>>>something arrises in those tanks.
>>>
>>>On the subject of liking Quick Cure as well, what is it with that med
>>>that makes it work better than another brand with the same ingredients.
>>>I don't get that either, but the stuff just works the best and it's
>>>dirt cheap too. = )~
>>>
>>
>>Quick Cure is one of the number of meds not available in the UK... :-( -
>>along with decent rapid cycling bacteria :-(
>>
>>Maybe one day.....
>>
>>Gill
>
>
>>Quick Cure is one of the number of meds not available in the UK... :-( -
>>along with decent rapid cycling bacteria :-(
>
>
> Oh wow!
> Maybe...just maybe you could have some shipped to you from say like a
> person who works in a shop, hint hint N.M....and just pay the cost and
> S&H. A tiny bottle goes a long way, as it's one drop per gallon.
> I've been through many horrible diseases and virus' in my time in this
> hobby and I only have Quick Cure, Jungle brand Fungus Eliminator (works
> on both true and faux fungus) and salt in my fishy Rx cabinet. It's
> good stuff maynerd!
>

Might not be legal....I'm sure there are quite tight controls on the
imports of meds (even for fish)...nice idea though...

Gill

[Kevin]

"Gill Passman" > wrote in message
.. .
> Tynk wrote:
> > Gill Passman wrote:
> >
> >>Tynk wrote:
> >>
> >>>NetMax wrote:
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>"Tynk" > wrote in message
> oups.com...
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>Gill Passman wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>>Tynk wrote:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>Steve wrote:
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>Tynk wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>><snip>
> >>>>
> >>>>>>So the question has to be how long do you need to quarantine fish
before
> >>>>>>adding them into the main tank? I would have hoped that 3 weeks plus
> >>>>>>would have been long enough but obviously not.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>Ah...Clown loaches are a "horse of a different color", if you know
what
> >>>>>I mean.
> >>>>>Seems like you can rearange a plant and they get Ich. They succumb to
> >>>>>it quite easily, and Ich is always in your tank.
> >>>>
> >>>>I've read credible studies which state (claim?) that Ich cannot
persist in
> >>>>water, as it's continually moving through its life cycle. It will
lengthen
> >>>>its lifecycle in colder water, and it can make itself less apparent by
> >>>>feeding off of gill tissues, but it cannot persist without a host and
going
> >>>>through the life cycle. My personal opinion and experience agrees
with
> >>>>this. It can stay at a low level for a long time, giving the
impression of
> >>>>virtual Ich, especially in LFS, but in a closed loop (home tank) it
will
> >>>>certainly die off 100%. There have also been credible hobbyists whose
> >>>>experience does not agree with this, and they reported Ich flare ups,
but it
> >>>>lacked scientific rigour (easier to prove no Ich than to prove virtual
Ich).
> >>>>ymmv
> >>>>
> >>>>ps: I also prefer Quick Cure after using many brands at work.
> >>>>--
> >>>>www.NetMax.tk
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>Once I get some into the main tank without Ich, I don't move them. If
> >>>>>they succumb to it in the main tank, I first up the temp and add a
> >>>>>little salt. Of course water changes too!! If they get worse or do
not
> >>>>>fight it off themselves, I'll hit the whole tank with half dose Quick
> >>>>>Cure. I tried RidIch for scaleless fish and they died before that med
> >>>>>could do anything to the Ich.
> >>>>>So, I won't stray from Quick Cure again.
> >>>>>Just make sure other tank mates can handle the half dosing of it.
> >>>>>Snails..nope. I've been told African Dwarf Frogs are both fine with
it
> >>>>>and that it will kill them. So, I simply remove any if I have them.
> >>>>>Same with large (good) snails.
> >>>>>When it comes to Clown Loaches and Ich....seems it's just going to be
a
> >>>>>factor somewhere down the line, sooner or later.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>I think the point I'm trying to make is
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>>that in my experience putting the fish into quarantine hasn't
actually
> >>>>>>made any difference - I may as well have put them straight into the
> >>>>>>Community Tank as the result is the same....
> >>>>>
> >>>>>Yes, I see what you're saying. But remember,the Clowns are in their
own
> >>>>>section when it comes to Ich.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> There have also been credible hobbyists whose
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>experience does not agree with this, and they reported Ich flare ups,
but it
> >>>>lacked scientific rigour (easier to prove no Ich than to prove virtual
Ich).
> >>>>ymmv
> >>>>
> >>>>ps: I also prefer Quick Cure after using many brands at work.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>I used to be of those Hobbyists that just didn't buy into Ich is always
> >>>in your tank. That was until a 29g had a breakout after it was set up
> >>>for years without ever an Ich breakout. No new fish in years, as it was
> >>>Angelfish tank which held old breeders and some younger singles.
> >>>Nothing new in years. No plants, no fish, no snails, just the same
> >>>fish.
> >>>I had a heater break down during a very cold winter (recored temps),
> >>>and low and behold they broke out with Ich.
> >>>I cannot explain how they got it. They never had it before. Actually,
> >>>none of those Angels ever had it before this. It was also the first Ich
> >>>outbreak in that tank, so having absolutely no explanation for it, I
> >>>figured it had to be in there anyway. The temp on that tank was always
> >>>at 80*f (except for the heater failure).
> >>>I'm not scientist, just a hobbyist and I couldn't explain / understand
> >>>how the boogers got into that tank, but they did somehow.
> >>>P.S....quaratine tanks have their own equipment which is bleached when
> >>>something arrises in those tanks.
> >>>
> >>>On the subject of liking Quick Cure as well, what is it with that med
> >>>that makes it work better than another brand with the same ingredients.
> >>>I don't get that either, but the stuff just works the best and it's
> >>>dirt cheap too. = )~
> >>>
> >>
> >>Quick Cure is one of the number of meds not available in the UK... :-( -
> >>along with decent rapid cycling bacteria :-(
> >>
> >>Maybe one day.....
> >>
> >>Gill
> >
> >
> >>Quick Cure is one of the number of meds not available in the UK... :-( -
> >>along with decent rapid cycling bacteria :-(
> >
> >
> > Oh wow!
> > Maybe...just maybe you could have some shipped to you from say like a
> > person who works in a shop, hint hint N.M....and just pay the cost and
> > S&H. A tiny bottle goes a long way, as it's one drop per gallon.
> > I've been through many horrible diseases and virus' in my time in this
> > hobby and I only have Quick Cure, Jungle brand Fungus Eliminator (works
> > on both true and faux fungus) and salt in my fishy Rx cabinet. It's
> > good stuff maynerd!
> >
>
> Might not be legal....I'm sure there are quite tight controls on the
> imports of meds (even for fish)...nice idea though...
>
> Gill

me too!