Sorry, need your advice again!

[Angela]

New tank is due tomorrow and I have followed all instructions as give by
"Net Max" and Sharon Kalita

All seemed to be going well till I tested for NO3 and the levels have shot
up to maximum. I did a 25% water change and still no difference. I am
concerned as this has never happened before. I have been doing regular
changes in preparation for the new tank and the water is clear. All other
balances are fine.

I have no idea how to lower this level apart from water changing. I also
tested our water supply and it is fine.
Can anyone help?

Regards Angela

[[email protected]]

do you have gravel in the bottom of this tank? have you rinsed off the filters?
Ingrid

"Angela" > wrote:

>New tank is due tomorrow and I have followed all instructions as give by
>"Net Max" and Sharon Kalita
>
>All seemed to be going well till I tested for NO3 and the levels have shot
>up to maximum. I did a 25% water change and still no difference. I am
>concerned as this has never happened before. I have been doing regular
>changes in preparation for the new tank and the water is clear. All other
>balances are fine.
>
>I have no idea how to lower this level apart from water changing. I also
>tested our water supply and it is fine.
>Can anyone help?
>
>Regards Angela
>



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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http://weloveteaching.com/puregold/
sign up: http://list.lovemyoldhome.com/web/wa.cgi?REPORT&z=3
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for
any of the recommendations I make.
AND I DID NOT AUTHORIZE ADS AT THE OLD PUREGOLD SITE

[Daniel Morrow]

Bottom posted.


"Angela" > wrote in message
. ..
> New tank is due tomorrow and I have followed all instructions as give by
> "Net Max" and Sharon Kalita
>
> All seemed to be going well till I tested for NO3 and the levels have shot
> up to maximum. I did a 25% water change and still no difference. I am
> concerned as this has never happened before. I have been doing regular
> changes in preparation for the new tank and the water is clear. All other
> balances are fine.
>
> I have no idea how to lower this level apart from water changing. I also
> tested our water supply and it is fine.
> Can anyone help?
>
> Regards Angela
>
>

Your test kit could easily be faulty. I have an aquarium pharmaceuticals
nitrate test kit that always shows 160+ nitrate levels and I don't believe
it as I have been changing massive amounts of water in that tank for at
least a month and the recorded level never goes down. Be suspicious of your
test kit - anyone else care to chime in? Later all!

[Angela]

Thanks Daniel. I will get a new kit this morning as I did wonder but it was
different from the kits I usually use. It was all they had. I'll let you
know. Appreciate your advice. Regards Angela
"Daniel Morrow" > wrote in message
...
> Bottom posted.
>
>
> "Angela" > wrote in message
> . ..
>> New tank is due tomorrow and I have followed all instructions as give by
>> "Net Max" and Sharon Kalita
>>
>> All seemed to be going well till I tested for NO3 and the levels have
>> shot
>> up to maximum. I did a 25% water change and still no difference. I am
>> concerned as this has never happened before. I have been doing regular
>> changes in preparation for the new tank and the water is clear. All other
>> balances are fine.
>>
>> I have no idea how to lower this level apart from water changing. I also
>> tested our water supply and it is fine.
>> Can anyone help?
>>
>> Regards Angela
>>
>>
>
> Your test kit could easily be faulty. I have an aquarium pharmaceuticals
> nitrate test kit that always shows 160+ nitrate levels and I don't believe
> it as I have been changing massive amounts of water in that tank for at
> least a month and the recorded level never goes down. Be suspicious of
> your
> test kit - anyone else care to chime in? Later all!
>
>

[Angela]

Hi, I had to drain the existing tank yesterday to remove the gravel so I
could relocate the tank to make space for the new one. I didn't put it back
as I wanted to add it to the new set-up and just left a small amount at the
bottom. I rinsed one filter but left the other as I had cleaned it about 5
days ago. It wasn't clogged up or even dirty. The massive change is worrying
me. I am off to get a new kit in case I am getting a false reading as Daniel
suggested, but the gravel situation may well be the reason. I am loathe to
use a denitrator unless it is absolutely necessary. Thanks. Will let you
know. Regards Angela
> wrote in message
...
> do you have gravel in the bottom of this tank? have you rinsed off the
> filters?
> Ingrid
>
> "Angela" > wrote:
>
>>New tank is due tomorrow and I have followed all instructions as give by
>>"Net Max" and Sharon Kalita
>>
>>All seemed to be going well till I tested for NO3 and the levels have shot
>>up to maximum. I did a 25% water change and still no difference. I am
>>concerned as this has never happened before. I have been doing regular
>>changes in preparation for the new tank and the water is clear. All other
>>balances are fine.
>>
>>I have no idea how to lower this level apart from water changing. I also
>>tested our water supply and it is fine.
>>Can anyone help?
>>
>>Regards Angela
>>
>
>
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List at
> http://weloveteaching.com/puregold/
> sign up: http://list.lovemyoldhome.com/web/wa.cgi?REPORT&z=3
> www.drsolo.com
> Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
> compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for
> any of the recommendations I make.
> AND I DID NOT AUTHORIZE ADS AT THE OLD PUREGOLD SITE

[[email protected]]

your tap water didnt show any nitrate, IIRC, so it isnt your nitrate test. I suspect
it is your gravel was fouled with lots of organic matter. now that you have pulled
the gravel out and washed it the nitrate levels should drop. Ingrid

"Angela" > wrote:

>Hi, I had to drain the existing tank yesterday to remove the gravel so I
>could relocate the tank to make space for the new one. I didn't put it back
>as I wanted to add it to the new set-up and just left a small amount at the
>bottom. I rinsed one filter but left the other as I had cleaned it about 5
>days ago. It wasn't clogged up or even dirty. The massive change is worrying
>me. I am off to get a new kit in case I am getting a false reading as Daniel
>suggested, but the gravel situation may well be the reason. I am loathe to
>use a denitrator unless it is absolutely necessary. Thanks. Will let you
>know. Regards Angela



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List at
http://weloveteaching.com/puregold/
sign up: http://list.lovemyoldhome.com/web/wa.cgi?REPORT&z=3
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for
any of the recommendations I make.
AND I DID NOT AUTHORIZE ADS AT THE OLD PUREGOLD SITE

[Angela]

Thanks Ingrid. I am flushing the gravel no and it is really mucky. New tank
arrival delayed for another few hours so just doing 25% water changes every
few hours. Watch this space:-) Regards Angela
> wrote in message
...
> your tap water didnt show any nitrate, IIRC, so it isnt your nitrate test.
> I suspect
> it is your gravel was fouled with lots of organic matter. now that you
> have pulled
> the gravel out and washed it the nitrate levels should drop. Ingrid
>
> "Angela" > wrote:
>
>>Hi, I had to drain the existing tank yesterday to remove the gravel so I
>>could relocate the tank to make space for the new one. I didn't put it
>>back
>>as I wanted to add it to the new set-up and just left a small amount at
>>the
>>bottom. I rinsed one filter but left the other as I had cleaned it about 5
>>days ago. It wasn't clogged up or even dirty. The massive change is
>>worrying
>>me. I am off to get a new kit in case I am getting a false reading as
>>Daniel
>>suggested, but the gravel situation may well be the reason. I am loathe to
>>use a denitrator unless it is absolutely necessary. Thanks. Will let you
>>know. Regards Angela
>
>
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List at
> http://weloveteaching.com/puregold/
> sign up: http://list.lovemyoldhome.com/web/wa.cgi?REPORT&z=3
> www.drsolo.com
> Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
> compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for
> any of the recommendations I make.
> AND I DID NOT AUTHORIZE ADS AT THE OLD PUREGOLD SITE

[Daniel Morrow]

Bottom posted.


"Angela" > wrote in message
. ..
> Thanks Ingrid. I am flushing the gravel no and it is really mucky. New
tank
> arrival delayed for another few hours so just doing 25% water changes
every
> few hours. Watch this space:-) Regards Angela
> > wrote in message
> ...
> > your tap water didnt show any nitrate, IIRC, so it isnt your nitrate
test.
> > I suspect
> > it is your gravel was fouled with lots of organic matter. now that you
> > have pulled
> > the gravel out and washed it the nitrate levels should drop. Ingrid
> >
> > "Angela" > wrote:
> >
> >>Hi, I had to drain the existing tank yesterday to remove the gravel so I
> >>could relocate the tank to make space for the new one. I didn't put it
> >>back
> >>as I wanted to add it to the new set-up and just left a small amount at
> >>the
> >>bottom. I rinsed one filter but left the other as I had cleaned it about
5
> >>days ago. It wasn't clogged up or even dirty. The massive change is
> >>worrying
> >>me. I am off to get a new kit in case I am getting a false reading as
> >>Daniel
> >>suggested, but the gravel situation may well be the reason. I am loathe
to
> >>use a denitrator unless it is absolutely necessary. Thanks. Will let you
> >>know. Regards Angela
> >
> >
> >
> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> > List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List at
> > http://weloveteaching.com/puregold/
> > sign up: http://list.lovemyoldhome.com/web/wa.cgi?REPORT&z=3
> > www.drsolo.com
> > Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> > I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
> > compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for
> > any of the recommendations I make.
> > AND I DID NOT AUTHORIZE ADS AT THE OLD PUREGOLD SITE
>
>

Dr. solo is probably right in your case, whenever you change water use a
gravel vac (cheap hose with cone attached to it) to clean the gravel. You
don't have to gravel vac "every" time you change water but I would say once
every 2 weeks is a good gravel vac frequency, good luck and I still don't
trust my nitrate test kit! Later!

[Lilly]

My tanks all have gravel in them. NO3 is never above 10. Gravel is not
the problem. It is, however, easier to blame the gravel than the
caretaker.

I would suspect the kit, even if the tap is reading zero. Some kits, in
particular Red Sea, are notoriously bad at getting it right.

[Geezer From The Freezer]

Lilly wrote:
> My tanks all have gravel in them. NO3 is never above 10. Gravel is not
> the problem. It is, however, easier to blame the gravel than the
> caretaker.
>
> I would suspect the kit, even if the tap is reading zero. Some kits, in
> particular Red Sea, are notoriously bad at getting it right.
>

Depends how deep your gravel is, the fish might sift through it
releasing debris, whereas a deeper gravel bottom will build and
build until its too much and voila!

[[email protected]]

true. nitrate is the end product of bacterial breakdown of wastes aerobically. in my
ponds (0 nitrates) my veggie filters remove the nitrates.
in a tank nitrates are usually removed by water changes and the level of nitrates
dictates how often water changes must be done. too much food or really poor quality
food produces a lot of nitrates. one reason a minimum of 10 gallons per GF is
needed, more for big deep bodied GF.
however, loaded filters and gravel over 1/2 inch deep will accumulate organic debris
which rots releasing nitrates and cannot really be removed even when well suctioned
as part of weekly upkeep. a condition of "loaded gravel" is evident when a 50% water
change does not lower nitrate levels or nitrates bounce back up after a day. it is
then time to pull the gravel out (moving the fish into a bucket of aerated water),
rinse well and replace. it isnt the gravel per se, rather the organic debris caught
in the gravel. Ingrid


>My tanks all have gravel in them. NO3 is never above 10. Gravel is not
>the problem. It is, however, easier to blame the gravel than the
>caretaker.
>
>I would suspect the kit, even if the tap is reading zero. Some kits, in
>particular Red Sea, are notoriously bad at getting it right.



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List at
http://weloveteaching.com/puregold/
sign up: http://list.lovemyoldhome.com/web/wa.cgi?REPORT&z=3
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for
any of the recommendations I make.
AND I DID NOT AUTHORIZE ADS AT THE OLD PUREGOLD SITE

[Reel Mckoi]

"Angela" > wrote in message
. ..
> Thanks Ingrid. I am flushing the gravel no and it is really mucky. New
> tank arrival delayed for another few hours so just doing 25% water changes
> every few hours. Watch this space:-) Regards Angela
===========================
Angela, you can buy an inexpensive gravel cleaner in any pet shop or
aquarium store. They're usually under $6.00 and last forever. Just run in
through your gravel when you do your water changes and dispose of it in your
garden or down the drain. Don't use gravel over 1' deep (or so) on the
bottom.
--
McKoi.... frugal ponding since 1995...
My Pond Page http://tinyurl.com/cuq5b
~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>

[Reel Mckoi]

"Daniel Morrow" > wrote in message
...
> Your test kit could easily be faulty. I have an aquarium pharmaceuticals
> nitrate test kit that always shows 160+ nitrate levels and I don't believe
> it as I have been changing massive amounts of water in that tank for at
> least a month and the recorded level never goes down. Be suspicious of
> your
> test kit - anyone else care to chime in? Later all!
===========================
I have always used gravel and LIVE plants in my many aquariums. Nitrate was
always very low when measured (sporadically). Years ago before gravel
vacuums or cleaners we would stir the gravel, then do a massive water
change. Not a real pleasant job. The gravel vacs or cleaners make it so
much easier to keep the gravel clean. :-)
--
McKoi.... frugal ponding since 1995...
My Pond Page http://tinyurl.com/cuq5b
~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>

[Lilly]

You have just inadvertently proved my point. ;-)

If the keeper is maintaining the gravel such that organics don't
accumulate, then the chance of organic gasses being released, like
hydrogen sulfide, is dramatically reduced. Unless you're keeping known
diggers, as is the case with some cichlids, the GF mainly root around
the top, so it's mostly moot anyway.

Gravel isn't dirty. It's the keeper that's got the problem.

[Lilly]

wrote:
> true. nitrate is the end product of bacterial breakdown of wastes aerobically. in my
> ponds (0 nitrates) my veggie filters remove the nitrates.

And typically in ponds the ratio of water/fish is substantially larger,
so dilution of pollutants would work to your advantage. I'm sure the
plants help, but I'd venture a bet that volume is working to your
advantage in this situation more than the plants.

> in a tank nitrates are usually removed by water changes and the level of nitrates
> dictates how often water changes must be done.

Partially true. It's always best to keep a regular routine so that it
doesn't build to an unacceptable level just before changing. Dilution
is your friend.

> too much food or really poor quality
> food produces a lot of nitrates.

Which would go back to the keeper, and not the container. I have kept
Africans in very deep substrates of 4"+ and have never had to tear a
tank down. My fish are fed three, maybe four, times a week unless they
are young and growing. They really require a lot less than we give
them.

> one reason a minimum of 10 gallons per GF is
> needed, more for big deep bodied GF.

I've always thought that 10G/fish is too low and opt for 20+.

> however, loaded filters and gravel over 1/2 inch deep will accumulate organic debris
> which rots releasing nitrates and cannot really be removed even when well suctioned
> as part of weekly upkeep.

Lather, rinse, repeat. This is a maintenance issue perpetrated by the
keeper not the gravel.

[[email protected]]

nitrate doesnt "degas" itself, it must be removed by one means or another. in my
ponds in the summer when the fish are being fed a lot that is the plants in the
veggie filter, and of course includes algae which removes nitrates even in the
winter. algae on the back and sides of tanks that are in a window will also remove
some of the nitrates and are a great buffer.

nitrates are a balancing act between number and size of fish, amount and kind of food
and water changes AND the kind of filtration system. bare bottom tanks are easiest
to maintain because all that needs to be rinsed out is the filter and water changes
done to lower nitrate level. when a given tank is set up and cycled testing will
show how often water needs to be changed.

it is smart to check nitrates even with regular water changes because fish do get
bigger, feeding is not always regular and the biggest mistake is people do overfeed
GF leading to floaty problems.

tanks with plants will need less upkeep and the best way to attach plants is with
suction cups to the bottom or sides of the tank ... or in little pots using polyester
as "media". http://weloveteaching.com/puregold/care/plants.html

gravel is problematic http://weloveteaching.com/puregold/care/care1.htm#GRAVEL
for goldfish because GF are very dirty and produce a lot of wastes, one reason it is
not advisable to keep GF with freshwater trops. the key to keeping happy, healthy GF
is to be obsessive compulsive about doing regular gravel cleaning and water changes,
something most of use arent. It is easier to just do water changes and rinse the
filters, altho the HOLY GRAIL for GF keepers is a system that doesnt even require
water changes, which is only possible in heavily planted tanks and many more gallons
per fish than we typically keep ... of course we have to find GF that wont eat the
plants!

as "life" intrudes and time goes on GF keepers tend to let things slide and thorough
cleaning of gravel is often the first to go... even if it was done right at the
start. it does take some expertise to really get it clean as many a GF keeper found
out when they broke their tank down only to find an very disgusting smell coming from
the gravel as it was removed. personally I really LOVE gravel in a gravity filter
where it never goes anaerobic and it can be back flushed.

the difficulty of keeping up with GF in combination with a busy life is one reason my
fish are now outside in ponds. when I come up with a systems that doesnt need the
constant the water changes I will set my tanks back up and bring em back inside.
Ingrid


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List at
http://weloveteaching.com/puregold/
sign up: http://list.lovemyoldhome.com/web/wa.cgi?REPORT&z=3
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for
any of the recommendations I make.
AND I DID NOT AUTHORIZE ADS AT THE OLD PUREGOLD SITE

[Reel Mckoi]

"Lilly" > wrote in message
oups.com...
>
> wrote:
>> true. nitrate is the end product of bacterial breakdown of wastes
>> aerobically. in my
>> ponds (0 nitrates) my veggie filters remove the nitrates.
>
> And typically in ponds the ratio of water/fish is substantially larger,
> so dilution of pollutants would work to your advantage. I'm sure the
> plants help, but I'd venture a bet that volume is working to your
> advantage in this situation more than the plants.

## Excellent point. Ponds are much closer to "nature" when well set up than
any indoor aquarium can be.

>> in a tank nitrates are usually removed by water changes and the level of
>> nitrates
>> dictates how often water changes must be done.

> Partially true. It's always best to keep a regular routine so that it
> doesn't build to an unacceptable level just before changing. Dilution
> is your friend.

## Amen!

>> too much food or really poor quality
>> food produces a lot of nitrates.

> Which would go back to the keeper, and not the container. I have kept
> Africans in very deep substrates of 4"+ and have never had to tear a
> tank down. My fish are fed three, maybe four, times a week unless they
> are young and growing. They really require a lot less than we give
> them.

>> one reason a minimum of 10 gallons per GF is
>> needed, more for big deep bodied GF.

> I've always thought that 10G/fish is too low and opt for 20+.

## That's what a lot of GF keepers now shoot for. GF get large and 10
gallons per fish is too little once they're a year old. My small 150
gallon ponds hold not more than 6 to 8 young adult GF each. One third is
filled with pond plants. Sponge filters are used and the water stays
crystal clear.

>> however, loaded filters and gravel over 1/2 inch deep will accumulate
>> organic debris
>> which rots releasing nitrates and cannot really be removed even when well
>> suctioned
>> as part of weekly upkeep.

> Lather, rinse, repeat. This is a maintenance issue perpetrated by the
> keeper not the gravel.
--
McKoi.... frugal ponding since 1995...
My Pond Page http://tinyurl.com/cuq5b
~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>

[Lilly]

One other thing that bothers me. Nitrate can, though not all the time,
be converted into nitrogen.

>From "The Krib":
http://fins.actwin.com/glossary.php
nitrogen cycle
The nitrogen cycle describes how organic wastes break down in the
aquarium. Fish wastes naturally decompose into ammonia, which is highly
toxic. Nitrosomonas bacteria process the ammonia into nitrite, which is
also toxic. Nitrobacter bacteria then break down the nitrite into
nitrate, which is much less harmful. This is as far as the cycle goes
in most tanks, though under the right conditions, the nitrate is
further broken down to free nitrogen gas.

One means is to remove via water changes. The other is to be lucky
enough to have bacteria that will further the nitrofication cycle.


wrote:
> nitrate doesnt "degas" itself, it must be removed by one means or another.

[[email protected]]

the "lucky enough" is to have anaerobic bacteria. not something I want in my tanks.
there was talk of siporax, a type of fine ceramic bead that as stuffed into the
filter in a bag and inside this bead the anaerobic conditions were established that
could do this. tried it, didnt seem to work for me. Ingrid

though under the right conditions, the nitrate is
>further broken down to free nitrogen gas.
The other is to be lucky
>enough to have bacteria that will further the nitrofication cycle.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List at
http://weloveteaching.com/puregold/
sign up: http://list.lovemyoldhome.com/web/wa.cgi?REPORT&z=3
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for
any of the recommendations I make.
AND I DID NOT AUTHORIZE ADS AT THE OLD PUREGOLD SITE