Making the jump from a couple of 10 gallon tanks to a 75 gallon

[Glengoyne]

Over the past four or so months, my family has been caring for fish.
We have learned a lot over the past months, and are thoroughly hooked
to the hobby. Our LFS has a huge sale going next weekend. They are
selling tanks and stands at cost, and then everything else is marked
50% off.

We have our eye on a 75 gallon tank for an upgrade. But we've got lots
of questions we need to answer before we take the plunge.

One of those is heater..Should we go with one submersible large enough
for 75 gallons, or two smaller models? Also submersible or not?

Regarding the Filter. I'm not a big fan of the over the side
powerfilters, so I'm thinking canister filter. The LFS has Fluval
M.S.F. and Rena Filstars that would accomodate the tank. I'm leaning
toward the Fluval M.S.F., if we go that way should we get one that
accomodates up to 75 gallon tanks, or up to 100 gallon? I guess that
question is..how accurate are those depictions, and does it make sense
to have a bit extra.

Also regarding the filter. As I pointed out a week or two ago, I'm a
fan of UGFs, so we might be adding that to the filtration mix as well.
Can I connect the outputs of the Fluval to the UGF pipes to supply a
reverse UGF? Does such a configuration negate the need of a powerhead?

We also have a water source(well) that is very high in Nitrates. We've
got live plants in one of our ten gallons, but the Nitrates are still
high enough that we've got an industrial strength algae problem. We've
upgraded to a pleco, and he hasn't been keeping up. We've been using
half distilled water for our water changes...but that isn't going to
cut it with the 70 gal. tank. What I'm getting at, is are any of the
Nitrate reducing tools worhtwhile? I think I saw nitrate reducing
media for the Fluva...Does anyone have any experience with that?
Failing that does anyone have any recomendations for dealing with this
issue?

Finally we get to the fish. We've now got a pair of Rainbows(Dwarf
Neons) and a couple of clown loaches. Add to that a Beta, a chineese
Algae eater(a mean nasty sucker), and the pleco. I'm pretty sure the
beta won't go to the big tank, at least not permanantly. We're
thinking of adding some more Rainbows..Both Neon and Bosemani(sp?),
some more clown loaches, and possibly both Gouramis and Angels. Does
that sound like a reasonable mix of fish? Regarding the Gouramis,
we've had Dwarf Royal gouramis that we liked...but died while we were
away on vacation. We think the Opaline and Gold gouramis are nice as
well. We know to stay away from the huge kissing gouramis due to their
aggressiveness, but really don't know much about these other varieties.
We're also a bit worried about how the angels will get along with
these tank mates.

Thank you for reading this long drawn out post. Any helpful advice or
hints would be appreciated.

[NetMax]

"Glengoyne" > wrote in message
ups.com...
> Over the past four or so months, my family has been caring for fish.
> We have learned a lot over the past months, and are thoroughly hooked
> to the hobby. Our LFS has a huge sale going next weekend. They are
> selling tanks and stands at cost, and then everything else is marked
> 50% off.
>
> We have our eye on a 75 gallon tank for an upgrade. But we've got lots
> of questions we need to answer before we take the plunge.
>
> One of those is heater..Should we go with one submersible large enough
> for 75 gallons, or two smaller models? Also submersible or not?

Two digital submersible. At 50% off, get there early.

> Regarding the Filter. I'm not a big fan of the over the side
> powerfilters, so I'm thinking canister filter. The LFS has Fluval
> M.S.F. and Rena Filstars that would accomodate the tank. I'm leaning
> toward the Fluval M.S.F., if we go that way should we get one that
> accomodates up to 75 gallon tanks, or up to 100 gallon? I guess that
> question is..how accurate are those depictions, and does it make sense
> to have a bit extra.

The 304 would just do a 75g, so if it will be planted with a light
fishload, you are fine. Anything more ambitious and go up to the 404
(maybe with a Pro 60 biowheel on the end). What I would do is use two
304s. Filters and heaters are where you want redundancy to protect your
investment.

> Also regarding the filter. As I pointed out a week or two ago, I'm a
> fan of UGFs, so we might be adding that to the filtration mix as well.
> Can I connect the outputs of the Fluval to the UGF pipes to supply a
> reverse UGF? Does such a configuration negate the need of a powerhead?

Yes and yes. Then go with the 404, and you might need a little bit of
plastic plumbing and adapters to make it work. While this is a sweet
filtration setup, you might find the water surface develops a protein
layer. Then you may choose to get something to break it up (small
sponge/powerhead, or a diverter from the RUGF feed) or leave it alone
(many fish eat this layer, such as Mollys).

> We also have a water source(well) that is very high in Nitrates. We've
> got live plants in one of our ten gallons, but the Nitrates are still
> high enough that we've got an industrial strength algae problem. We've
> upgraded to a pleco, and he hasn't been keeping up. We've been using
> half distilled water for our water changes...but that isn't going to
> cut it with the 70 gal. tank. What I'm getting at, is are any of the
> Nitrate reducing tools worhtwhile? I think I saw nitrate reducing
> media for the Fluva...Does anyone have any experience with that?
> Failing that does anyone have any recomendations for dealing with this
> issue?

I think there is a nitrate remover, something like zeolite. I don't know
how effective it is. How about connecting a CO2 injector to the 75g and
have the plants suck the nitrates out of the water. You will be throwing
the nitrates out in the form of solid waste (pruning leaves).

> Finally we get to the fish. We've now got a pair of Rainbows(Dwarf
> Neons) and a couple of clown loaches. Add to that a Beta, a chineese
> Algae eater(a mean nasty sucker), and the pleco. I'm pretty sure the
> beta won't go to the big tank, at least not permanantly. We're
> thinking of adding some more Rainbows..Both Neon and Bosemani(sp?),
> some more clown loaches, and possibly both Gouramis and Angels. Does
> that sound like a reasonable mix of fish? Regarding the Gouramis,
> we've had Dwarf Royal gouramis that we liked...but died while we were
> away on vacation. We think the Opaline and Gold gouramis are nice as
> well. We know to stay away from the huge kissing gouramis due to their
> aggressiveness, but really don't know much about these other varieties.
> We're also a bit worried about how the angels will get along with
> these tank mates.

I'd lose the CAE, and the pleco if you use CO2. The Bosemanis are very
nice. Get enough to have more than one male. Pearls are sweethearts,
Opalines so-so and Golds can be bossy (imo), but it varies a lot by their
size, tank size and who they grow up with. As always ymmv.

> Thank you for reading this long drawn out post. Any helpful advice or
> hints would be appreciated.

Sounds like you're having lots of fun.
--
www.NetMax.tk

[Glengoyne]

Lots of fun yes, and your post has sent me off on a wild search for
info on CO2 injectors.

On the RUGF front is there a reason to forego the two 304s to use a
single 404? I'm thinking that if redundancy counts, then how about a
304 feeding each filter plate(two 18"x24" plates).


Also I have some uncertainties regarding cycling the new tank. When we
setup the second ten gallon, I ran two power filters on the existing
tank for a week and then just moved the spare to the new aquarium along
with the dominant CAE. That worked fine. Of course I won't have
enough bacteria for a 75 gallon tank. How do I seed the big tank? Can
I just move some gravel from the 10, and then move the fish and the
little 10gallon powerfilter to the 75? It seems that would probably
give me enough bacteria to accomodate my existing fish load. Then we
could just add a couple of fish a week to work our way up to our limit.

I've considered using Bio-Spyra as an additional safety net, based on
some recent threads here, but I'm thinking that would give us lots of
biologicals, but not enough waste for them to feed on. I'm not sure
that is a good thing. I'm not familiar with how Bio-Spyra
works...could we just add/seed a bit each time we introduce fish?


Thanks for all the insighful ideas.

[NetMax]

"Glengoyne" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> Lots of fun yes, and your post has sent me off on a wild search for
> info on CO2 injectors.

hmmm, I hope I have not steered you into an area of unwanted complexity.
Hagen makes a DIY CO2 system which is rated for a 20g. I've seen very
good results using two of these on a 75g tank. Just start them 2 weeks
apart, so you get an uninterrupted supply. Before investing in CO2
though, you should post your water parameters. The harder the water, the
less effective the CO2 injection (imo).

> On the RUGF front is there a reason to forego the two 304s to use a
> single 404? I'm thinking that if redundancy counts, then how about a
> 304 feeding each filter plate(two 18"x24" plates).

I like the way you think. One 304 = 260gph over 18x24x(18ref)= 16.8g =
x15.5 (volume changes per hour) per plate. Hagen recommends x4 to x5, so
as I suspected, you are overpowered. Functionally, this would still
work, as the 430 sq.in. surface would divide up the 260gph very nicely.

Alternately, plumb the 2 plates together and run them off a central
spigot from one 304, and use the 2nd 304 to break up your surface and
generate a circular flow pattern to promote temperature uniformity. I
have a 66g running this way right now. I cut the centrally located
(central to the individual plates) riser pipes short (under the gravel)
and connected together with a T connector in the middle of the tank. The
T connector points upward where it is connected to a canister filter. In
my current configuration, I have it running in UGF (actually in vacuum
mode, see note below), but the flow distribution is the point of interest
here.

> Also I have some uncertainties regarding cycling the new tank. When we
> setup the second ten gallon, I ran two power filters on the existing
> tank for a week and then just moved the spare to the new aquarium along
> with the dominant CAE. That worked fine. Of course I won't have
> enough bacteria for a 75 gallon tank. How do I seed the big tank? Can
> I just move some gravel from the 10, and then move the fish and the
> little 10gallon powerfilter to the 75? It seems that would probably
> give me enough bacteria to accomodate my existing fish load. Then we
> could just add a couple of fish a week to work our way up to our limit.

Exactly! It's a misconception that bigger tanks need more bacteria. The
biological requirements of a Guppy in a 10g tank are the same as a Guppy
in a 75g tank. The bacterial culture balances to the waste production,
so as long as the quantity of fish is unchanged, you will basically
mini-cycle for a few days while the bacteria which are not in your filter
(anerobic bacteria living in the tank and gravel) re-establish
themselves. Note that these bacteria are much more typical, multiplying
in 20 minutes, instead of the hours the aerobic nitrifying bacteria take.
A little aged gravel in a knee-high stocking should seed it nicely
(speaking from intuition as I've never tested this with proper controls
in place).

> I've considered using Bio-Spyra as an additional safety net, based on
> some recent threads here, but I'm thinking that would give us lots of
> biologicals, but not enough waste for them to feed on. I'm not sure
> that is a good thing. I'm not familiar with how Bio-Spyra
> works...could we just add/seed a bit each time we introduce fish?

An excess of nitrifying bacteria (Bio-spira) will go dormant, and
eventually die off if there is insufficient food supply. This is an
ongoing process under normal circumstances as the bacteria migrate around
the tank looking for better locations, but when it happens all at once or
in a significant quantity (bacterial die-off), you can get cloudy water.
The problem (from my limited understanding) is that it sets up a pendulum
effect between type A (aerobic) and type B (anaerobic) bacteria:

1) too much type A and (not enough ammonia) and they die off
2) type B multiply like crazy to consume the dead type A
3) type B runs out of food supply, and start dying off, adding to the
waste level creating ammonia
4) type A begin reproducing to consume extra ammonia
5) back to step 1)

Because their reproduction rates are different, the pendulum effect
usually corrects itself relatively quickly (unless you start feeding
floculants or bacterial boosters to correct the problem ;~). In any
case, the fish seem relatively oblivious to the effect and their anxious
fish-keepers.

In theory adding a bit of Bio-spira with each introduction should work
fine, but if you have a planted tank, it might not make a significant
difference. In a low fish-load, growing plants are very efficient at
acting as an ammonia sponge, absorbing all the little peaks which
naturally occur on a daily basis.

> Thanks for all the insighful ideas.

Cheers, and as mentioned above, link for continuous vacuum mode. Just
food for thought, but you probably want a more conventional set-up, so
this is only an amusing ponder.
http://www.2cah.com/netmax/diy_projects/vac/vac.shtml
--
www.NetMax.tk

[Glengoyne]

The continuous vacuum mode has piqued my interest. Not just because
I've tried two LFSs with out finding UGF plates for a 48x18 tank. It
seems like this type of setup could really cut down on maintenance, or
gravel vacuuming at least. How often are you gravel vaccing the areas
without the UGF plates? One of my thoughts about the RUGF effect would
be that it would provide a bacterial playground for good bacteria, and
keep junk from piling up in the gravel. I'm hoping that it would
reduce the amount of maintenance in the long run. Your continuous
Gravel Vac seems conceived iwth the same thing in mind. Aside from the
minor complexity of setting up that configuration, the biggest thing
that stops me from embracing the idea wholly is that bit about a leaky
canister draining the tank. I'd certainly look into drilling the
safety hole in the intake, but with us being new to the whole canister
filter thing, I feel like a leak is more of a certainty that a
possibility.

Since we are talking about water conditions and CO2 injection.

Here is what our tank looks like and our supply.

Tank: Nitrates 80 ppm, GH 150 ppm KH(total alkalinity) 300+ppm, PH
7.5-7.6
Supply: Nitrates 80 ppm, GH(total Hardness) 200+ ppm, KH 300+ ppm, PH
7.8

I'm wondering if I was stingy with the distilled last water change.
The tank is due a change tonight.

Another thing I'll add is that I will almost certainly eventually add a
diatom filter to the mix. Back when I kept fish some twenty plus years
ago, nothing made me prouder than the look of my tank after I hooked up
the diatom for an afternoon once a month.

[Glengoyne]

Oh and regarding the Hagen CO2 system, that looks much more reasonable,
and safer than the semi-automatic setup Featured at Dr. Foster and
Smiths.

Also after reading the various CO2 site doing my research, it makes me
understand a bit about why our plants keep dying.

[NetMax]

"Glengoyne" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> The continuous vacuum mode has piqued my interest. Not just because
> I've tried two LFSs with out finding UGF plates for a 48x18 tank. It
> seems like this type of setup could really cut down on maintenance, or
> gravel vacuuming at least.

You will need plates to implement this type of a system. I pick up old
plates at annual fish club auctions, or get your LFS to order your size.
They generally get dry goods deliveries every week or two.

> How often are you gravel vaccing the areas
> without the UGF plates?

Where I don't have plates, I have plants, so I don't vacuum there often, but
when I do, there is considerable mulm. I still gravel vacuum everywhere
else, but with the UG vacuum running, the loosened mulm just goes up or
down. I've been gravel vacuuming every 2 or 3 weeks lately, part of my
water change routine.

> One of my thoughts about the RUGF effect would
> be that it would provide a bacterial playground for good bacteria, and
> keep junk from piling up in the gravel.

The theory is that the detritus does not sink as deep or as quickly. In
practice, it depends on many variables.

> I'm hoping that it would
> reduce the amount of maintenance in the long run. Your continuous
> Gravel Vac seems conceived iwth the same thing in mind.

Oh yes, I am major lazy. One day I will have an 'All Aquarium Maintenance'
button ;~). I'm getting closer all the time.

Aside from the
> minor complexity of setting up that configuration, the biggest thing
> that stops me from embracing the idea wholly is that bit about a leaky
> canister draining the tank.

I thought about that as well, though a regular canister would drain quite
far down as well. The safety hole is a good idea. I will have to do it
myself one of these days. I don't mind a little plumbing complexity if it
saves me a little time every week.

> I'd certainly look into drilling the
> safety hole in the intake, but with us being new to the whole canister
> filter thing, I feel like a leak is more of a certainty that a
> possibility.

I think the quality of canisters has gotten much better. The weakest link
is the connection point where the hose meets the filter or shut off valves.
This is a good location to add an extra hose clamp, and for any set-up,
check these connections once a year.

In regards to the gravel vacuum, then I would revert to your original idea
of running each plate off a 304 filter. You want to have lots of suction
and coarse gravel (just enough to cover the plates). While this does work
as well as it sounds, it has a few operational quirks. If you have fry in
the tank, they are vulnerable. If the filters are running during feeding,
then any food which hits the substrate will vanish. Your bottom feeders
will either have to be fast or you need an area without the plates. I set
up about 1/3 of the tank to be at a much lower elevation (with the plates
underneath), and the autofeeder is positioned in the back. Anything which
makes its way to the bottom (food or poop) tends to roll towards the lower
elevations (vacuumed). When I feed live/frozen foods (bloodworms or
shrimp), I turn off the filters. A simple method is to use two power bars.
Bar #1 has aquarium lights on a timer. Bar #2 has filters, heater and some
type of a visual indication method to remind you to turn it back on later (I
use a delay off timer which turns back on after about 5 minutes).

> Since we are talking about water conditions and CO2 injection.
>
> Here is what our tank looks like and our supply.
>
> Tank: Nitrates 80 ppm, GH 150 ppm KH(total alkalinity) 300+ppm, PH
> 7.5-7.6

> Supply: Nitrates 80 ppm, GH(total Hardness) 200+ ppm, KH 300+ ppm, PH
> 7.8

Putting this in units I'm accustomed to, 80 ppm NO3, 11dgH, 17dkH and 7.8pH.
BTW, you can cut your sample in half for the titration tests and measure in
twos to save reagent. Start with 2.5ml instead of 5ml. An 80 ppm NO3 out
of the tank is a real drag. It will take a lot of growing plants to consume
that level. Might even be worth making an algae scrubber (high light sump
filter with algae growing on plates), or cycle through a plant pan with bog
plants (a bit of hydroponics ;~).

CO2 will certainly help your plant growth, but I'm unsure as to how much of
an effect it will have on your well buffered pH (not that it really matters
anyway).

> I'm wondering if I was stingy with the distilled last water change.
> The tank is due a change tonight.

With an 80ppm NO3 starting point, it must be tricky to determine when a
water change is needed. I wonder if a TDS meter would be more useful.
Measure shortly after a water change, and then again once a day to see your
trend and establish a maintenance interval.

> Another thing I'll add is that I will almost certainly eventually add a
> diatom filter to the mix. Back when I kept fish some twenty plus years
> ago, nothing made me prouder than the look of my tank after I hooked up
> the diatom for an afternoon once a month.

Old habits eh? Ideally, your filtration system negates this requirement,
but there is certainly no harm in water polishing.

On my system, the canister running the vacuum does not get opened for
cleaning. I backwash it by reversing the water flow through it into a pail
(it intakes through its spraybar). The 2nd canister is configured
conventionally for water polishing. I can use a finer sponge in this one as
the vacuum canister is going after the bigger stuff.
--
www.NetMax.tk

[Glengoyne]

Couple of things.

I'm still leaning toward RUGF driven by a 404 or a pair of 304s. The
LFS having the sale has numerous 404s, but only one 304...hopefully
they will have more for their sale, but I'm not counting on it. I'm
mentioning this because you mentioned food vanishing into the substrate
and such..which I took as references to standard UGF.

I'm still trying to scrape up Filter plates that will actually cover
the entire bottom of the tank...I'd just think that the whole concept
of UGF/RUGF works best if you have the entire tank bottom covered. It
might be that I'll have to actually be patient, and wait to setup until
I actually have all the pieces I need.

>On my system, the canister running the vacuum does not get opened for
>cleaning. I backwash it by reversing the water flow through it into a pail
>(it intakes through its spraybar). The 2nd canister is configured
>conventionally for water polishing. I can use a finer sponge in this one as
>the vacuum canister is going after the bigger stuff.

Are you saying that you don't need to do monthly cleanings of the
Canister? So you just setup the mechanical filtering media once, and
then back wash it for cleaning? Is there some sort of special
configuration that you've come up with to make this work?

Also something I haven't discussed is lighting. Both of the setups we
are looking at accomodate twin 48" fluorescent tubes. I believe they
specify T8, T10, or T12 tubes. In any case with hopefully a lot of
plants in the aquarium...what kind of lighting should we need to help
the plants, and best compliment the look of the fish?

We'll have to look into a TDS monitoring kit...as it is now, We just do
water changes every seven to ten days.

[NetMax]

"Glengoyne" > wrote in message
ups.com...
> Couple of things.
>
> I'm still leaning toward RUGF driven by a 404 or a pair of 304s. The
> LFS having the sale has numerous 404s, but only one 304...hopefully
> they will have more for their sale, but I'm not counting on it. I'm
> mentioning this because you mentioned food vanishing into the substrate
> and such..which I took as references to standard UGF.

A standard UGF traps food within the substrate (to be consumed by
bacteria, then producing ammonia, and/or dissolving into the water). A
UG vacuum moves food through a thin layer of substrate into a filter
system (to then do the same as above, or to be rinsed away during filter
cleaning). If you do not rinse to remove this accumulated detritus, the
effect is the same, TDS, DOC and NO3 goes up (all undesirable).

> I'm still trying to scrape up Filter plates that will actually cover
> the entire bottom of the tank...I'd just think that the whole concept
> of UGF/RUGF works best if you have the entire tank bottom covered. It
> might be that I'll have to actually be patient, and wait to setup until
> I actually have all the pieces I need.

It's a rare tank that I've set-up that had full width or length plates.
You never want it right to the front (or you see them in the glass), and
the back of a tank is usually deeper in substrate (limiting the UGF/RUGF
function), and the ends and back are usually filled with rocks, plants,
driftwood, pots etc. While aquariums *are* a sport of patience, I don't
think you need to wait for full-sized plates.

>>On my system, the canister running the vacuum does not get opened for
>>cleaning. I backwash it by reversing the water flow through it into a
>>pail
>>(it intakes through its spraybar). The 2nd canister is configured
>>conventionally for water polishing. I can use a finer sponge in this
>>one as
>>the vacuum canister is going after the bigger stuff.
>
> Are you saying that you don't need to do monthly cleanings of the
> Canister? So you just setup the mechanical filtering media once, and
> then back wash it for cleaning? Is there some sort of special
> configuration that you've come up with to make this work?

Correct, it's documented on my site. Fairly simply backwash set-up.
This is for the vacuum canister, though the other canister also gets
reduced maintenance.

Also keep in mind (slightly different subject) that with enough filters
(or a small enough fish-load) that you would never need to clean your
filters. If this sounds too radical, consider that almost everything
that gets trapped in a filter will decay and dissolve back into the
water, eventually. If there is a significant amount of filter media,
then this detritus will be well distributed through the media and will
decay/dissolve at a quick rate (warm oxygenated water with lots of
bacteria around ;~). If the rate of decay is as quick or quicker than
the rate at which new detritus is brought into the filters, the end
result is that the filters will never fill up. One of the secrets to no
filter maintenance is lots of filters. If you put three 404 filters (you
could use 304 pumps as they are interchangeable and you don't need the
flow) on a light fish load, how often would you think that you would need
to clean them? Remember, it is not linear (double the filter /= double
the interval). It's likely that you would be cleaning them annual, just
so that you could look inside. This sounds theoretical, but I've seen it
in practice, from customers who took the over-filtration approach and
then were always complaining to me because every time they went to clean
them, they were empty!! Again, I'm not suggesting you do this, but this
illustrates one of the lessor known mechanics of filtration. Also keep
in mind, not cleaning the filter means it is back in the water (as DOCs
or dissolved organic compounds), so water changes are still essential.

> Also something I haven't discussed is lighting. Both of the setups we
> are looking at accomodate twin 48" fluorescent tubes. I believe they
> specify T8, T10, or T12 tubes. In any case with hopefully a lot of
> plants in the aquarium...what kind of lighting should we need to help
> the plants, and best compliment the look of the fish?

Ah, lightning... your research is taking a natural progression (later you
will be asking where you can find 80 lbs of flourite or natural gravel
cheap, and does anyone actually buys LFS rocks? ;~).

There are a variety of factors to lighting : CRI, Kelvin range, wattage
or watts per gallon, depth of water, number of hours daily duration and
the appearance of the fish under the different types. Standard aquarium
packages are usually around 0.75-0.8wpg range, and you are at 2x34w/75g =
0.9wpg (or 1.1wpg if your ballasts will drive a 40w bulb). Typically, a
compromise between plant growth and algae control is to stay under
3.0wpg. Approaching 3.0wpg without CO2 injection is a little hazardous
(I'm doing it in one of my tanks for entertainment purposes). I have a
number of links on my site regarding lighting (on the links page under
lighting ;~), some of which may not even be broken links. If you don't
have time to research, add a 2nd strip light canopy to double the
wattage, and use a variety of bulbs, ie: plant bulb, full spectrum bulb
and a couple at around 500K (daylight) with high CRI values.

> We'll have to look into a TDS monitoring kit...as it is now, We just do
> water changes every seven to ten days.

If you gain any experience with a TDS meter, post it. I have no hands-on
experience myself. It's just on my list of things to buy and experiment
with.
--
www.NetMax.tk

[Glengoyne]

Whoot More great info. I've now bookmarked your site, and am presently
in danger of becoming a NetMax Disciple.

OK good answer on the lights...I've dug into the Algae scrubber
comments, and think we'll try and see how the CO2 injection and a
number of plants work out. We can always add some kind of sump
configuration at a later time.

Honestly I wasn't going to ask about a source for gravel...I was
planning on buying loads and loads of LFS rock in 10 pound bags.
Should I be using Fluorite? How will that affect my gravel vacuuming?
What varieties of color does it come in?..I have only seen whilte.

My substrate plan was to buy the natural looking gravel varieties with
a small diameter, and then buy some straight black gravel to darken the
overall substrate...then I was going to purchase a small amount of
larger diameter gravel for aesthetics.

[NetMax]

"Glengoyne" > wrote in message
ups.com...
> Whoot More great info. I've now bookmarked your site, and am presently
> in danger of becoming a NetMax Disciple.

lol *warning* long-term exposure to NetMax has been known to cause fishrooms
to appear ;~)

You're just asking very good questions.

> OK good answer on the lights...I've dug into the Algae scrubber
> comments, and think we'll try and see how the CO2 injection and a
> number of plants work out. We can always add some kind of sump
> configuration at a later time.

FYI: Sumps are fed through J tubes or the tank needs to be drilled (in the
back or a standpipe from the bottom). Adding a sump later usually means
using J tubes which can fail (clog or lose suction through air entrapment).
Upon failure, if the water volume is sufficient, the main tank may overflow
(the drawback of J tubes, as drilled tanks are self-regulating and a little
safer). There are sensors designed to prevent this, but they are prone to
problems as well.

I've never seen designs for freshwater algae scrubbers, but it might be
possible to construct something which holds very little water and has very
little chance for failure. This is probably a topic deserving of its own
thread.

> Honestly I wasn't going to ask about a source for gravel...I was
> planning on buying loads and loads of LFS rock in 10 pound bags.
> Should I be using Fluorite? How will that affect my gravel vacuuming?
> What varieties of color does it come in?..I have only seen whilte.

I think I have a page on gravel, pros/cons of different diameters, colours,
and mixing colours. That might be helpful. If building a gravel vacuum
system, then your gravel must be very large. If growing plants, then your
gravel should be very small (think very coarse sand). For UGF/RUGF
operation, then it would probably work best if you had a medium sized
gravel. With your hardness/alkalinity/pH, you probably don't care if the
gravel will leech and harden your water, but given the choice, I would avoid
them. They may have some influence causing your pH to rise ever so
slightly. My flourite is red, though I've heard of a black onyx as well. I
think the specialty substrates are a little over-rated (and over-priced),
but for those looking for every edge, then that's the way to go.
Incidentally, white is a poor colour choice. Not only does it show
detritus, and algae, but it causes a strong reflective light source from
underneath the fish (who use the source of light to orient themselves).
I've never seen fish swim upside down because of it ;~), but overall, it's
not a condition which usually exists in nature, so their evolution didn't
account for it. You might find fearful shoaling fish are more jittery over
white gravel (increases their vulnerability to attack from above), so that
includes corys, loaches, tetras, danios etc.

> My substrate plan was to buy the natural looking gravel varieties with
> a small diameter, and then buy some straight black gravel to darken the
> overall substrate...then I was going to purchase a small amount of
> larger diameter gravel for aesthetics.

I've set up tanks with gravel contrasts made to look like a wandering brook.
The greater the difference in colour, texture and size, the more it appears
to be a deliberate effort, and more eye-appealing (imo) At the other
extreme, if you mix gravel from different 2 bags, and they are not
identical, the eye tends to catch the difference. I once mixed gravel which
was identical in colour and nearly identical in size, but one had rounded
surfaces (better) and the other had sharper surfaces (bad for corys, loaches
etc). It looked like I had run out of gravel and bought a bag from a
different supplier. It looks bad. Make the differences big if they will be
side by side. If they will be mixed together, then (imo), you have to have
a variety of colours, size and textures (as is found in natural gravel).

Incidentally, red flourite is a small-medium size, lovely shades of red,
sharp edges (bad) and has an annoying habit of having magnetic bits which
stick to my magnetic algae scrubber (threatening to scratch my glass).
These are some of the things they don't tell you in the store.

You might want to experiment with small samples on dinner plates to get the
% mixture established. Also remember that like death & taxes, it is
unavoidable for the gravels to get somewhat mixed (any digging cichlid will
guarantee that ;~). I've had good luck mixing natural gravel with small
river stones. Accidental mixing tends to leave the effect unchanged as the
river stones stay above the substrate.

hth :o)
--
www.NetMax.tk

[Glengoyne]

Been rumaging through your site, and there is lots of neat stuff.

I did note a few things, on your Continuous Gravel Vac setup, you say
you need to use large diameter rock..like river rock. Yet when I look
at the pictures of the completed aquarium...I see what I consider
typical sized gravel over the plates. Is it because it is in a thin
layer, that it works as you described? I pictured myself getting half
inch or better smooth pebbles/stones to fill that role. I also noted
that the gravel in that tank was primarily white.

Based on your info I'm thinking that I'll position the UGF plates
toward the front of the tank, just shy of touching the glass. Then I
figure I can run them as a RUGF...or experiment with your Continuous
Gravel vac setup. I'll use largish gravel up front over the plates,
and use more of the same with a bit of the specialty plant substrate
mixed in at the rear and sides. I'm not sure how I'll manage to keep
that little stuff out of the front, but I'm certainly not afraid of a
battle of futility.

I checked your site, and didn't note any source as an alternative to a
LFS. I guess I'll check around at the local home improvement stores,
and see what I find.

[NetMax]

"Glengoyne" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> Been rumaging through your site, and there is lots of neat stuff.
>
> I did note a few things, on your Continuous Gravel Vac setup, you say
> you need to use large diameter rock..like river rock. Yet when I look
> at the pictures of the completed aquarium...I see what I consider
> typical sized gravel over the plates. Is it because it is in a thin
> layer, that it works as you described? I pictured myself getting half
> inch or better smooth pebbles/stones to fill that role. I also noted
> that the gravel in that tank was primarily white.

Your observations are correct. I started the tank up with a small-medium
grade coarse dolomite (buffers the water nicely), on a plastic screen. I
don't know if dolomite is available in other colors besides white, but I've
always had a hard time even finding dolomite. In any case, it's from our
mistakes that we learn the most (and I've learned lots! ;~). I found that
too much detritus was getting caught in it, making it a UGF instead of a
vacuum. I later switched to a coarse natural stone which is what is in
there today. It is performing much better, but the canister is a little
underpowered (a 25 year old Fluval 201). My advice is more up to date than
the illustrations.

> Based on your info I'm thinking that I'll position the UGF plates
> toward the front of the tank, just shy of touching the glass. Then I
> figure I can run them as a RUGF...or experiment with your Continuous
> Gravel vac setup. I'll use largish gravel up front over the plates,
> and use more of the same with a bit of the specialty plant substrate
> mixed in at the rear and sides. I'm not sure how I'll manage to keep
> that little stuff out of the front, but I'm certainly not afraid of a
> battle of futility.

The secret is tiers. One method: chunks of driftwood, saw flat one side,
face the flat side down on drilled slate, install stainless steel screws,
arrange the driftwood to make a wall (or tier). Where 2 pieces connect, use
a flexible piece of flat plastic to hold it back as needed (I often put a
vertical driftwood at the junctions, sometimes hanging over the front to
hide the seam). I usually make ovals so the weight of the higher level of
finer gravel pushes the structure together rather than apart. Arrange this
all in a dry tank with ty-raps to hold everything together.

Alternately, carve some styrofoam, paint and silicone down.

Futility can be deferred ;~).

> I checked your site, and didn't note any source as an alternative to a
> LFS. I guess I'll check around at the local home improvement stores,
> and see what I find.

Source for ? Gravel is available from home improvement hardware stores,
landscaping operations, pond suppliers and quarries (sold to drop into
concrete pathways or for landscaping). hth
--
www.NetMax.tk

[Glengoyne]

Thanks again.

I'm sure we'll be following up here with questions brought about by our
new venture. So there should be plenty of follow ups.