Crazy Clown Loaches

[Fantastic Derek]

Hi

This is going to seem like a stupid question I think. I bought myself
three clowns yesterday. I have been considering this for some time,
having even decided against it despite the fact that I bought myself a
much larger tank than I had orignally wanted/ bought just so I could
get some, but I could resist no more as I think they are just amazing
creatures. Anyway, when first released them they wnet to the back of
the tank and just laid there, but began to move about yesterday
evening.

This evening however, although one is wandering about and another one
is just lying about at the back of the tank the third one has done
something that I am slightly puzzled with. I have a fairly large piece
of bogwood, which has a hole in it which I never noticed before. The
third clown is in this hole. It must be just about the length of his
body and probably no wider, but I can just see his tail sticking out
of. I know it sounds stupid, but I am concerned that he may be stuck
as I havbe been watching him (or her) for about 40 minutes now and
every so often he wiggles his tail as if he's trying to move out but
goes nowhere! Am I being silly? I don't want to stick my hand in the
tank unneccasarily as they do seem quite nervous while they have been
getting used to the tank.

BTW Gill, how are you getting on with your two last rams? Mine, both
of which I bought from the same place as you I think seem to be fine
(touch wood).

[Gail Futoran]

"Fantastic Derek" > wrote in message
...
> Hi
>
> This is going to seem like a stupid question I think. I bought myself
> three clowns yesterday. I have been considering this for some time,
> having even decided against it despite the fact that I bought myself a
> much larger tank than I had orignally wanted/ bought just so I could
> get some, but I could resist no more as I think they are just amazing
> creatures. Anyway, when first released them they wnet to the back of
> the tank and just laid there, but began to move about yesterday
> evening.
>
> This evening however, although one is wandering about and another one
> is just lying about at the back of the tank the third one has done
> something that I am slightly puzzled with. I have a fairly large piece
> of bogwood, which has a hole in it which I never noticed before. The
> third clown is in this hole. It must be just about the length of his
> body and probably no wider, but I can just see his tail sticking out
> of. I know it sounds stupid, but I am concerned that he may be stuck
> as I havbe been watching him (or her) for about 40 minutes now and
> every so often he wiggles his tail as if he's trying to move out but
> goes nowhere! Am I being silly? I don't want to stick my hand in the
> tank unneccasarily as they do seem quite nervous while they have been
> getting used to the tank.
>
> BTW Gill, how are you getting on with your two last rams? Mine, both
> of which I bought from the same place as you I think seem to be fine
> (touch wood).

I had a Skunk botia get stuck and die in a small
cave decoration (in the hole on the bottom of
one "leg"). I removed the decoration. My YoYos
will try the same thing so I'm careful about what
decorations are in tanks with loaches.

Loaches will put themselves in positions they can't
get out of, so I would remove any temptations
or fill the hole with something. You might also
provide some hidey holes, like PVC pipe (which
is smooth so they can't get stuck until they
get too large for it). My YoYos love hiding in
PVC pipe.

You might wait awhile to see if the loach gets
itself out of the hole before modifying the
bogwood. Like you said, they're still getting
used to the tank.

Gail

[Fantastic Derek]

Thanks, Gail. I had assumed he would get out by himself, but if you've
had experience otherwise... How would I go about getting him out? I
suppose if I just tip it gently he should just fall out.What do you
think? Idon't want to hurt him.

If it does prove to be an issue, I might take the wood out and drill
the hole through so next time they can just swim straight through.

On Sun, 25 Sep 2005 21:49:22 GMT, "Gail Futoran"
> wrote:

>"Fantastic Derek" > wrote in message
...
>> Hi
>>
>> This is going to seem like a stupid question I think. I bought myself
>> three clowns yesterday. I have been considering this for some time,
>> having even decided against it despite the fact that I bought myself a
>> much larger tank than I had orignally wanted/ bought just so I could
>> get some, but I could resist no more as I think they are just amazing
>> creatures. Anyway, when first released them they wnet to the back of
>> the tank and just laid there, but began to move about yesterday
>> evening.
>>
>> This evening however, although one is wandering about and another one
>> is just lying about at the back of the tank the third one has done
>> something that I am slightly puzzled with. I have a fairly large piece
>> of bogwood, which has a hole in it which I never noticed before. The
>> third clown is in this hole. It must be just about the length of his
>> body and probably no wider, but I can just see his tail sticking out
>> of. I know it sounds stupid, but I am concerned that he may be stuck
>> as I havbe been watching him (or her) for about 40 minutes now and
>> every so often he wiggles his tail as if he's trying to move out but
>> goes nowhere! Am I being silly? I don't want to stick my hand in the
>> tank unneccasarily as they do seem quite nervous while they have been
>> getting used to the tank.
>>
>> BTW Gill, how are you getting on with your two last rams? Mine, both
>> of which I bought from the same place as you I think seem to be fine
>> (touch wood).
>
>I had a Skunk botia get stuck and die in a small
>cave decoration (in the hole on the bottom of
>one "leg"). I removed the decoration. My YoYos
>will try the same thing so I'm careful about what
>decorations are in tanks with loaches.
>
>Loaches will put themselves in positions they can't
>get out of, so I would remove any temptations
>or fill the hole with something. You might also
>provide some hidey holes, like PVC pipe (which
>is smooth so they can't get stuck until they
>get too large for it). My YoYos love hiding in
>PVC pipe.
>
>You might wait awhile to see if the loach gets
>itself out of the hole before modifying the
>bogwood. Like you said, they're still getting
>used to the tank.
>
>Gail
>

[Gill Passman]

Fantastic Derek wrote:
> Thanks, Gail. I had assumed he would get out by himself, but if you've
> had experience otherwise... How would I go about getting him out? I
> suppose if I just tip it gently he should just fall out.What do you
> think? Idon't want to hurt him.
>
> If it does prove to be an issue, I might take the wood out and drill
> the hole through so next time they can just swim straight through.
>
> On Sun, 25 Sep 2005 21:49:22 GMT, "Gail Futoran"
> > wrote:
>
>
>>"Fantastic Derek" > wrote in message
...
>>
>>>Hi
>>>
>>>This is going to seem like a stupid question I think. I bought myself
>>>three clowns yesterday. I have been considering this for some time,
>>>having even decided against it despite the fact that I bought myself a
>>>much larger tank than I had orignally wanted/ bought just so I could
>>>get some, but I could resist no more as I think they are just amazing
>>>creatures. Anyway, when first released them they wnet to the back of
>>>the tank and just laid there, but began to move about yesterday
>>>evening.
>>>
>>>This evening however, although one is wandering about and another one
>>>is just lying about at the back of the tank the third one has done
>>>something that I am slightly puzzled with. I have a fairly large piece
>>>of bogwood, which has a hole in it which I never noticed before. The
>>>third clown is in this hole. It must be just about the length of his
>>>body and probably no wider, but I can just see his tail sticking out
>>>of. I know it sounds stupid, but I am concerned that he may be stuck
>>>as I havbe been watching him (or her) for about 40 minutes now and
>>>every so often he wiggles his tail as if he's trying to move out but
>>>goes nowhere! Am I being silly? I don't want to stick my hand in the
>>>tank unneccasarily as they do seem quite nervous while they have been
>>>getting used to the tank.
>>>
>>>BTW Gill, how are you getting on with your two last rams? Mine, both
>>>of which I bought from the same place as you I think seem to be fine
>>>(touch wood).
>>
>>I had a Skunk botia get stuck and die in a small
>>cave decoration (in the hole on the bottom of
>>one "leg"). I removed the decoration. My YoYos
>>will try the same thing so I'm careful about what
>>decorations are in tanks with loaches.
>>
>>Loaches will put themselves in positions they can't
>>get out of, so I would remove any temptations
>>or fill the hole with something. You might also
>>provide some hidey holes, like PVC pipe (which
>>is smooth so they can't get stuck until they
>>get too large for it). My YoYos love hiding in
>>PVC pipe.
>>
>>You might wait awhile to see if the loach gets
>>itself out of the hole before modifying the
>>bogwood. Like you said, they're still getting
>>used to the tank.
>>
>>Gail
>>

Hi Derek,

My previous batch of Clown Loaches (much missed - filter prob while I
was on hols) - the two largest would periodically jam themselves in the
bogwood and get trapped by the Plec who lived there - no ill effect
although the smaller ones did get so stressed I got an outbreak of white
spot/ich....if they can get in they can get out....I am actually
currently having problems with stocking YoYo Loaches (in the UK they
call them Pakistani Loaches) - much the same as you are describing with
the Clowns - my guess is they are sick/

My question, based on recent experience, would be which MA did you buy
them from???? Check for white spots/grains - they could have ich which
would explain their shyness - fish if not well will not be as confident
as those that are healthy - IME clowns especially

My attempts to replace my 6 strong troupe after the massacre have had
varied results....3 of them which I put in QT never had any confidence
and succumbed and died from Ich - they never behaved the way I would
expect CLs to behave. 3 others I foolishly put straight into the
community tank and I will swear they grew at least 1/2 inch plus within
a week or so....they are out and about and very confident. That being
said I am currently treating them for Ich but it doesn't seem to be
bothering them and I don't believe that they brought the ich in with
them...I think it was introduced by other fish I put in the tank.

Watch for white spot/ich...Clowns should be out playing and feeding well
if there are sufficient other confident, established fish to make them
feel secure....

Gill

BTW One female Ram died within a couple of days....the remaining male
and female appear to be a love match and are doing great...apart from
having picked the area chosen by the Dwarf Gouramis as a spawning patch
(which I'm sure will end in tears) they are doing very well.

I'm compiling a list of fishes purchased against living and dead from a
certain LFS to take them to task - I think the level of mortality is too
high....I don't really care about the credit issue (although HH offered
without me asking) - it is more a matter that they seem to currently
have a problem based on my experience and it needs to be rectified - if
I don't complain how will they know???? Previously I've never had issues
with fish purchased there

[Fantastic Derek]

Hi Gill,

I got them from HH. I was going to get replacements for the rainbows,
but the red ones they had weren't any where near as nice as they were
before so I decided to go for the clowns instead. I don't think
there's too much wrong with them apart from this one that I am now
convinced is stuck in the wood. I am really worried about him. I
posted on another forum and was advised to pul the wood out just for a
few seconds, the idea being that the change in pressure may allow him
to fall out, but this didn't work. It's getting late now and I've got
to be in work early tomorrow. I think I'm going to turn out the lights
and hope he wriggles himself free. After all he got in there.


On Sun, 25 Sep 2005 23:52:16 +0100, Gill Passman
> wrote:

>Fantastic Derek wrote:
>> Thanks, Gail. I had assumed he would get out by himself, but if you've
>> had experience otherwise... How would I go about getting him out? I
>> suppose if I just tip it gently he should just fall out.What do you
>> think? Idon't want to hurt him.
>>
>> If it does prove to be an issue, I might take the wood out and drill
>> the hole through so next time they can just swim straight through.
>>
>> On Sun, 25 Sep 2005 21:49:22 GMT, "Gail Futoran"
>> > wrote:
>>
>>
>>>"Fantastic Derek" > wrote in message
...
>>>
>>>>Hi
>>>>
>>>>This is going to seem like a stupid question I think. I bought myself
>>>>three clowns yesterday. I have been considering this for some time,
>>>>having even decided against it despite the fact that I bought myself a
>>>>much larger tank than I had orignally wanted/ bought just so I could
>>>>get some, but I could resist no more as I think they are just amazing
>>>>creatures. Anyway, when first released them they wnet to the back of
>>>>the tank and just laid there, but began to move about yesterday
>>>>evening.
>>>>
>>>>This evening however, although one is wandering about and another one
>>>>is just lying about at the back of the tank the third one has done
>>>>something that I am slightly puzzled with. I have a fairly large piece
>>>>of bogwood, which has a hole in it which I never noticed before. The
>>>>third clown is in this hole. It must be just about the length of his
>>>>body and probably no wider, but I can just see his tail sticking out
>>>>of. I know it sounds stupid, but I am concerned that he may be stuck
>>>>as I havbe been watching him (or her) for about 40 minutes now and
>>>>every so often he wiggles his tail as if he's trying to move out but
>>>>goes nowhere! Am I being silly? I don't want to stick my hand in the
>>>>tank unneccasarily as they do seem quite nervous while they have been
>>>>getting used to the tank.
>>>>
>>>>BTW Gill, how are you getting on with your two last rams? Mine, both
>>>>of which I bought from the same place as you I think seem to be fine
>>>>(touch wood).
>>>
>>>I had a Skunk botia get stuck and die in a small
>>>cave decoration (in the hole on the bottom of
>>>one "leg"). I removed the decoration. My YoYos
>>>will try the same thing so I'm careful about what
>>>decorations are in tanks with loaches.
>>>
>>>Loaches will put themselves in positions they can't
>>>get out of, so I would remove any temptations
>>>or fill the hole with something. You might also
>>>provide some hidey holes, like PVC pipe (which
>>>is smooth so they can't get stuck until they
>>>get too large for it). My YoYos love hiding in
>>>PVC pipe.
>>>
>>>You might wait awhile to see if the loach gets
>>>itself out of the hole before modifying the
>>>bogwood. Like you said, they're still getting
>>>used to the tank.
>>>
>>>Gail
>>>
>
>Hi Derek,
>
>My previous batch of Clown Loaches (much missed - filter prob while I
>was on hols) - the two largest would periodically jam themselves in the
>bogwood and get trapped by the Plec who lived there - no ill effect
>although the smaller ones did get so stressed I got an outbreak of white
>spot/ich....if they can get in they can get out....I am actually
>currently having problems with stocking YoYo Loaches (in the UK they
>call them Pakistani Loaches) - much the same as you are describing with
>the Clowns - my guess is they are sick/
>
>My question, based on recent experience, would be which MA did you buy
>them from???? Check for white spots/grains - they could have ich which
>would explain their shyness - fish if not well will not be as confident
>as those that are healthy - IME clowns especially
>
>My attempts to replace my 6 strong troupe after the massacre have had
>varied results....3 of them which I put in QT never had any confidence
>and succumbed and died from Ich - they never behaved the way I would
>expect CLs to behave. 3 others I foolishly put straight into the
>community tank and I will swear they grew at least 1/2 inch plus within
>a week or so....they are out and about and very confident. That being
>said I am currently treating them for Ich but it doesn't seem to be
>bothering them and I don't believe that they brought the ich in with
>them...I think it was introduced by other fish I put in the tank.
>
>Watch for white spot/ich...Clowns should be out playing and feeding well
>if there are sufficient other confident, established fish to make them
>feel secure....
>
>Gill
>
>BTW One female Ram died within a couple of days....the remaining male
>and female appear to be a love match and are doing great...apart from
>having picked the area chosen by the Dwarf Gouramis as a spawning patch
>(which I'm sure will end in tears) they are doing very well.
>
>I'm compiling a list of fishes purchased against living and dead from a
>certain LFS to take them to task - I think the level of mortality is too
>high....I don't really care about the credit issue (although HH offered
>without me asking) - it is more a matter that they seem to currently
>have a problem based on my experience and it needs to be rectified - if
>I don't complain how will they know???? Previously I've never had issues
>with fish purchased there

[Fantastic Derek]

He's freed himself!!!!! Good work, foolish clown loach!!



On Mon, 26 Sep 2005 01:29:27 +0100, Fantastic Derek >
wrote:

>Hi Gill,
>
>I got them from HH. I was going to get replacements for the rainbows,
>but the red ones they had weren't any where near as nice as they were
>before so I decided to go for the clowns instead. I don't think
>there's too much wrong with them apart from this one that I am now
>convinced is stuck in the wood. I am really worried about him. I
>posted on another forum and was advised to pul the wood out just for a
>few seconds, the idea being that the change in pressure may allow him
>to fall out, but this didn't work. It's getting late now and I've got
>to be in work early tomorrow. I think I'm going to turn out the lights
>and hope he wriggles himself free. After all he got in there.
>
>
>On Sun, 25 Sep 2005 23:52:16 +0100, Gill Passman
> wrote:
>
>>Fantastic Derek wrote:
>>> Thanks, Gail. I had assumed he would get out by himself, but if you've
>>> had experience otherwise... How would I go about getting him out? I
>>> suppose if I just tip it gently he should just fall out.What do you
>>> think? Idon't want to hurt him.
>>>
>>> If it does prove to be an issue, I might take the wood out and drill
>>> the hole through so next time they can just swim straight through.
>>>
>>> On Sun, 25 Sep 2005 21:49:22 GMT, "Gail Futoran"
>>> > wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>"Fantastic Derek" > wrote in message
...
>>>>
>>>>>Hi
>>>>>
>>>>>This is going to seem like a stupid question I think. I bought myself
>>>>>three clowns yesterday. I have been considering this for some time,
>>>>>having even decided against it despite the fact that I bought myself a
>>>>>much larger tank than I had orignally wanted/ bought just so I could
>>>>>get some, but I could resist no more as I think they are just amazing
>>>>>creatures. Anyway, when first released them they wnet to the back of
>>>>>the tank and just laid there, but began to move about yesterday
>>>>>evening.
>>>>>
>>>>>This evening however, although one is wandering about and another one
>>>>>is just lying about at the back of the tank the third one has done
>>>>>something that I am slightly puzzled with. I have a fairly large piece
>>>>>of bogwood, which has a hole in it which I never noticed before. The
>>>>>third clown is in this hole. It must be just about the length of his
>>>>>body and probably no wider, but I can just see his tail sticking out
>>>>>of. I know it sounds stupid, but I am concerned that he may be stuck
>>>>>as I havbe been watching him (or her) for about 40 minutes now and
>>>>>every so often he wiggles his tail as if he's trying to move out but
>>>>>goes nowhere! Am I being silly? I don't want to stick my hand in the
>>>>>tank unneccasarily as they do seem quite nervous while they have been
>>>>>getting used to the tank.
>>>>>
>>>>>BTW Gill, how are you getting on with your two last rams? Mine, both
>>>>>of which I bought from the same place as you I think seem to be fine
>>>>>(touch wood).
>>>>
>>>>I had a Skunk botia get stuck and die in a small
>>>>cave decoration (in the hole on the bottom of
>>>>one "leg"). I removed the decoration. My YoYos
>>>>will try the same thing so I'm careful about what
>>>>decorations are in tanks with loaches.
>>>>
>>>>Loaches will put themselves in positions they can't
>>>>get out of, so I would remove any temptations
>>>>or fill the hole with something. You might also
>>>>provide some hidey holes, like PVC pipe (which
>>>>is smooth so they can't get stuck until they
>>>>get too large for it). My YoYos love hiding in
>>>>PVC pipe.
>>>>
>>>>You might wait awhile to see if the loach gets
>>>>itself out of the hole before modifying the
>>>>bogwood. Like you said, they're still getting
>>>>used to the tank.
>>>>
>>>>Gail
>>>>
>>
>>Hi Derek,
>>
>>My previous batch of Clown Loaches (much missed - filter prob while I
>>was on hols) - the two largest would periodically jam themselves in the
>>bogwood and get trapped by the Plec who lived there - no ill effect
>>although the smaller ones did get so stressed I got an outbreak of white
>>spot/ich....if they can get in they can get out....I am actually
>>currently having problems with stocking YoYo Loaches (in the UK they
>>call them Pakistani Loaches) - much the same as you are describing with
>>the Clowns - my guess is they are sick/
>>
>>My question, based on recent experience, would be which MA did you buy
>>them from???? Check for white spots/grains - they could have ich which
>>would explain their shyness - fish if not well will not be as confident
>>as those that are healthy - IME clowns especially
>>
>>My attempts to replace my 6 strong troupe after the massacre have had
>>varied results....3 of them which I put in QT never had any confidence
>>and succumbed and died from Ich - they never behaved the way I would
>>expect CLs to behave. 3 others I foolishly put straight into the
>>community tank and I will swear they grew at least 1/2 inch plus within
>>a week or so....they are out and about and very confident. That being
>>said I am currently treating them for Ich but it doesn't seem to be
>>bothering them and I don't believe that they brought the ich in with
>>them...I think it was introduced by other fish I put in the tank.
>>
>>Watch for white spot/ich...Clowns should be out playing and feeding well
>>if there are sufficient other confident, established fish to make them
>>feel secure....
>>
>>Gill
>>
>>BTW One female Ram died within a couple of days....the remaining male
>>and female appear to be a love match and are doing great...apart from
>>having picked the area chosen by the Dwarf Gouramis as a spawning patch
>>(which I'm sure will end in tears) they are doing very well.
>>
>>I'm compiling a list of fishes purchased against living and dead from a
>>certain LFS to take them to task - I think the level of mortality is too
>>high....I don't really care about the credit issue (although HH offered
>>without me asking) - it is more a matter that they seem to currently
>>have a problem based on my experience and it needs to be rectified - if
>>I don't complain how will they know???? Previously I've never had issues
>>with fish purchased there

[Gill Passman]

Fantastic Derek wrote:
> Hi Gill,
>
> I got them from HH. I was going to get replacements for the rainbows,
> but the red ones they had weren't any where near as nice as they were
> before so I decided to go for the clowns instead. I don't think
> there's too much wrong with them apart from this one that I am now
> convinced is stuck in the wood. I am really worried about him. I
> posted on another forum and was advised to pul the wood out just for a
> few seconds, the idea being that the change in pressure may allow him
> to fall out, but this didn't work. It's getting late now and I've got
> to be in work early tomorrow. I think I'm going to turn out the lights
> and hope he wriggles himself free. After all he got in there.
>
>
> On Sun, 25 Sep 2005 23:52:16 +0100, Gill Passman
> > wrote:
>
>
>>Fantastic Derek wrote:
>>
>>>Thanks, Gail. I had assumed he would get out by himself, but if you've
>>>had experience otherwise... How would I go about getting him out? I
>>>suppose if I just tip it gently he should just fall out.What do you
>>>think? Idon't want to hurt him.
>>>
>>>If it does prove to be an issue, I might take the wood out and drill
>>>the hole through so next time they can just swim straight through.
>>>
>>>On Sun, 25 Sep 2005 21:49:22 GMT, "Gail Futoran"
> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>"Fantastic Derek" > wrote in message
...
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>Hi
>>>>>
>>>>>This is going to seem like a stupid question I think. I bought myself
>>>>>three clowns yesterday. I have been considering this for some time,
>>>>>having even decided against it despite the fact that I bought myself a
>>>>>much larger tank than I had orignally wanted/ bought just so I could
>>>>>get some, but I could resist no more as I think they are just amazing
>>>>>creatures. Anyway, when first released them they wnet to the back of
>>>>>the tank and just laid there, but began to move about yesterday
>>>>>evening.
>>>>>
>>>>>This evening however, although one is wandering about and another one
>>>>>is just lying about at the back of the tank the third one has done
>>>>>something that I am slightly puzzled with. I have a fairly large piece
>>>>>of bogwood, which has a hole in it which I never noticed before. The
>>>>>third clown is in this hole. It must be just about the length of his
>>>>>body and probably no wider, but I can just see his tail sticking out
>>>>>of. I know it sounds stupid, but I am concerned that he may be stuck
>>>>>as I havbe been watching him (or her) for about 40 minutes now and
>>>>>every so often he wiggles his tail as if he's trying to move out but
>>>>>goes nowhere! Am I being silly? I don't want to stick my hand in the
>>>>>tank unneccasarily as they do seem quite nervous while they have been
>>>>>getting used to the tank.
>>>>>
>>>>>BTW Gill, how are you getting on with your two last rams? Mine, both
>>>>>of which I bought from the same place as you I think seem to be fine
>>>>>(touch wood).
>>>>
>>>>I had a Skunk botia get stuck and die in a small
>>>>cave decoration (in the hole on the bottom of
>>>>one "leg"). I removed the decoration. My YoYos
>>>>will try the same thing so I'm careful about what
>>>>decorations are in tanks with loaches.
>>>>
>>>>Loaches will put themselves in positions they can't
>>>>get out of, so I would remove any temptations
>>>>or fill the hole with something. You might also
>>>>provide some hidey holes, like PVC pipe (which
>>>>is smooth so they can't get stuck until they
>>>>get too large for it). My YoYos love hiding in
>>>>PVC pipe.
>>>>
>>>>You might wait awhile to see if the loach gets
>>>>itself out of the hole before modifying the
>>>>bogwood. Like you said, they're still getting
>>>>used to the tank.
>>>>
>>>>Gail
>>>>
>>
>>Hi Derek,
>>
>>My previous batch of Clown Loaches (much missed - filter prob while I
>>was on hols) - the two largest would periodically jam themselves in the
>>bogwood and get trapped by the Plec who lived there - no ill effect
>>although the smaller ones did get so stressed I got an outbreak of white
>>spot/ich....if they can get in they can get out....I am actually
>>currently having problems with stocking YoYo Loaches (in the UK they
>>call them Pakistani Loaches) - much the same as you are describing with
>>the Clowns - my guess is they are sick/
>>
>>My question, based on recent experience, would be which MA did you buy
>>them from???? Check for white spots/grains - they could have ich which
>>would explain their shyness - fish if not well will not be as confident
>>as those that are healthy - IME clowns especially
>>
>>My attempts to replace my 6 strong troupe after the massacre have had
>>varied results....3 of them which I put in QT never had any confidence
>>and succumbed and died from Ich - they never behaved the way I would
>>expect CLs to behave. 3 others I foolishly put straight into the
>>community tank and I will swear they grew at least 1/2 inch plus within
>>a week or so....they are out and about and very confident. That being
>>said I am currently treating them for Ich but it doesn't seem to be
>>bothering them and I don't believe that they brought the ich in with
>>them...I think it was introduced by other fish I put in the tank.
>>
>>Watch for white spot/ich...Clowns should be out playing and feeding well
>>if there are sufficient other confident, established fish to make them
>>feel secure....
>>
>>Gill
>>
>>BTW One female Ram died within a couple of days....the remaining male
>>and female appear to be a love match and are doing great...apart from
>>having picked the area chosen by the Dwarf Gouramis as a spawning patch
>>(which I'm sure will end in tears) they are doing very well.
>>
>>I'm compiling a list of fishes purchased against living and dead from a
>>certain LFS to take them to task - I think the level of mortality is too
>>high....I don't really care about the credit issue (although HH offered
>>without me asking) - it is more a matter that they seem to currently
>>have a problem based on my experience and it needs to be rectified - if
>>I don't complain how will they know???? Previously I've never had issues
>>with fish purchased there


My current three Clowns came from HH as well and are doing very well - I
reckon they have grown at least 1/2 inch since I got them just over a
month ago.

It would certainly be worth trying moving the wood and see what happens
if he hasn't found his own way out

Gill

[Gill Passman]

Fantastic Derek wrote:
> He's freed himself!!!!! Good work, foolish clown loach!!
>
>
>
Missed this before replying - :-)

Glad he is free

Gill

[Fantastic Derek]

Didn't you buy those rams from our Welsh friend? I've not lost any of
his fish although I have had cause to question his advice. We took
back one of our two males that we had as they were always fighting and
swapped him for a small one from the Gold strain they have there which
he told me was female. These two don't fight at all, but the smaller,
gold one, I'm sure is a male. It's third ray points out above the
rest. No harm though as we swapped them to avoid the bullying/
fighting and this has definitely happened.

However, on another tack, I wanted something to do with my smaller
tank now all of the fish are in my big fella. It was fully cycled and
my wife loves puffers so I did a lot of reading and decided we could
get some dwarf puffers, but when we went in there they didn't have
enough left so I let him talk me into getting a couple of FW spotted
puffers who are ridiculously cute. They've done pretty well, eating
everything that he recommended including flake amazingly, but it
appears to me, having done a little more reading that they may prefer
slightly brackish water as they get older and that they can grow up to
6" so would require a much bigger tank!! Annoying, as I told him what
sixe tnka I had, but I think it's a good lesson never to avidly trust
your LFS guy. He even told me I was reading too much!!


>BTW One female Ram died within a couple of days....the remaining male
>and female appear to be a love match and are doing great...apart from
>having picked the area chosen by the Dwarf Gouramis as a spawning patch
>(which I'm sure will end in tears) they are doing very well.
>
>I'm compiling a list of fishes purchased against living and dead from a
>certain LFS to take them to task - I think the level of mortality is too
>high....I don't really care about the credit issue (although HH offered
>without me asking) - it is more a matter that they seem to currently
>have a problem based on my experience and it needs to be rectified - if
>I don't complain how will they know???? Previously I've never had issues
>with fish purchased there

[Gill Passman]

Fantastic Derek wrote:
> Didn't you buy those rams from our Welsh friend? I've not lost any of
> his fish although I have had cause to question his advice. We took
> back one of our two males that we had as they were always fighting and
> swapped him for a small one from the Gold strain they have there which
> he told me was female. These two don't fight at all, but the smaller,
> gold one, I'm sure is a male. It's third ray points out above the
> rest. No harm though as we swapped them to avoid the bullying/
> fighting and this has definitely happened.
>
> However, on another tack, I wanted something to do with my smaller
> tank now all of the fish are in my big fella. It was fully cycled and
> my wife loves puffers so I did a lot of reading and decided we could
> get some dwarf puffers, but when we went in there they didn't have
> enough left so I let him talk me into getting a couple of FW spotted
> puffers who are ridiculously cute. They've done pretty well, eating
> everything that he recommended including flake amazingly, but it
> appears to me, having done a little more reading that they may prefer
> slightly brackish water as they get older and that they can grow up to
> 6" so would require a much bigger tank!! Annoying, as I told him what
> sixe tnka I had, but I think it's a good lesson never to avidly trust
> your LFS guy. He even told me I was reading too much!!
>
>
>
LOL - he tells me I spend too much time on Newsgroups!!!! and woe betide
you if you describe "White Spot" as "Ich" :-)

How big is your smaller tank? I've never been tempted by puffers with
the exception of the Mbu puffers they had at Hare Hatch - hasty reading
put me off them tho' - don't have a tank big enough - but they were
really cute the way they watched you from the tank.

I've reached the point where I tend to just buy the fish I want and have
already researched rather than relying on advice from any of the guys at
MA. I must admit I sometimes research something unsuitable that they
have on sale and then ask them if they would be suitable for my set up.
Naughty I know, but I almost always get the right answer back.

My two Dutch Rams are definitely Male/Female but I was told that it was
very easy to tell the sexes (by H) although when I had my last venture
into Ram ownership I was told it was almost impossible to tell the sexes
(by H). Hmmmmm

Gill

[NetMax]

"Fantastic Derek" > wrote in message
...
> He's freed himself!!!!! Good work, foolish clown loach!!
>


My advice, remove that ornament now, while you have the chance.
--
www.NetMax.tk

[Gail Futoran]

"Fantastic Derek" > wrote
[snip]

I was delighted to read your Clown Loach had
freed himself. I had no idea what to suggest
and hoped someone else would.

> However, on another tack, I wanted something to do with my smaller
> tank now all of the fish are in my big fella. It was fully cycled and
> my wife loves puffers so I did a lot of reading and decided we could
> get some dwarf puffers, but when we went in there they didn't have
> enough left so I let him talk me into getting a couple of FW spotted
> puffers who are ridiculously cute. They've done pretty well, eating
> everything that he recommended including flake amazingly, but it
> appears to me, having done a little more reading that they may prefer
> slightly brackish water as they get older and that they can grow up to
> 6" so would require a much bigger tank!! Annoying, as I told him what
> sixe tnka I had, but I think it's a good lesson never to avidly trust
> your LFS guy. He even told me I was reading too much!!

I had a similar experience. I bought two "dwarf
loaches" that turned out to be the same variety you
have. They are cute and I have two as the sole
occupants in a 10 gallon brackish (my first) tank.
But they're growing fast and I suppose when they
get bigger I'll give them back to the LFS. I've
enjoyed the experience of my first brackish tank,
anyway.

Gail

[Fantastic Derek]

It's out. I'm filling up the hole with silicon!!


On Mon, 26 Sep 2005 09:48:38 -0400, "NetMax"
> wrote:

>"Fantastic Derek" > wrote in message
...
>> He's freed himself!!!!! Good work, foolish clown loach!!
>>
>
>
>My advice, remove that ornament now, while you have the chance.

[Fantastic Derek]

The small tank is only a 2 foot one. I think you're right. It's
definitely better to get your own information which goes against my
natural bent as an impulse buyer!!

On Mon, 26 Sep 2005 12:34:54 +0100, Gill Passman
> wrote:

>Fantastic Derek wrote:
>> Didn't you buy those rams from our Welsh friend? I've not lost any of
>> his fish although I have had cause to question his advice. We took
>> back one of our two males that we had as they were always fighting and
>> swapped him for a small one from the Gold strain they have there which
>> he told me was female. These two don't fight at all, but the smaller,
>> gold one, I'm sure is a male. It's third ray points out above the
>> rest. No harm though as we swapped them to avoid the bullying/
>> fighting and this has definitely happened.
>>
>> However, on another tack, I wanted something to do with my smaller
>> tank now all of the fish are in my big fella. It was fully cycled and
>> my wife loves puffers so I did a lot of reading and decided we could
>> get some dwarf puffers, but when we went in there they didn't have
>> enough left so I let him talk me into getting a couple of FW spotted
>> puffers who are ridiculously cute. They've done pretty well, eating
>> everything that he recommended including flake amazingly, but it
>> appears to me, having done a little more reading that they may prefer
>> slightly brackish water as they get older and that they can grow up to
>> 6" so would require a much bigger tank!! Annoying, as I told him what
>> sixe tnka I had, but I think it's a good lesson never to avidly trust
>> your LFS guy. He even told me I was reading too much!!
>>
>>
>>
>LOL - he tells me I spend too much time on Newsgroups!!!! and woe betide
>you if you describe "White Spot" as "Ich" :-)
>
>How big is your smaller tank? I've never been tempted by puffers with
>the exception of the Mbu puffers they had at Hare Hatch - hasty reading
>put me off them tho' - don't have a tank big enough - but they were
>really cute the way they watched you from the tank.
>
>I've reached the point where I tend to just buy the fish I want and have
>already researched rather than relying on advice from any of the guys at
>MA. I must admit I sometimes research something unsuitable that they
>have on sale and then ask them if they would be suitable for my set up.
>Naughty I know, but I almost always get the right answer back.
>
>My two Dutch Rams are definitely Male/Female but I was told that it was
>very easy to tell the sexes (by H) although when I had my last venture
>into Ram ownership I was told it was almost impossible to tell the sexes
>(by H). Hmmmmm
>
>Gill

[Fantastic Derek]

Thanks for that! I went to bed much relieved I can tell you. All of
the clowns still seem unwilling to spend any time exploring when I'm
in the room! When I or my wife walk in the room we both see them
scampering off to the back of the tank. Hopefully they'll get more
confident.

On Mon, 26 Sep 2005 17:20:37 GMT, "Gail Futoran"
> wrote:

>"Fantastic Derek" > wrote
>[snip]
>
>I was delighted to read your Clown Loach had
>freed himself. I had no idea what to suggest
>and hoped someone else would.
>
>> However, on another tack, I wanted something to do with my smaller
>> tank now all of the fish are in my big fella. It was fully cycled and
>> my wife loves puffers so I did a lot of reading and decided we could
>> get some dwarf puffers, but when we went in there they didn't have
>> enough left so I let him talk me into getting a couple of FW spotted
>> puffers who are ridiculously cute. They've done pretty well, eating
>> everything that he recommended including flake amazingly, but it
>> appears to me, having done a little more reading that they may prefer
>> slightly brackish water as they get older and that they can grow up to
>> 6" so would require a much bigger tank!! Annoying, as I told him what
>> sixe tnka I had, but I think it's a good lesson never to avidly trust
>> your LFS guy. He even told me I was reading too much!!
>
>I had a similar experience. I bought two "dwarf
>loaches" that turned out to be the same variety you
>have. They are cute and I have two as the sole
>occupants in a 10 gallon brackish (my first) tank.
>But they're growing fast and I suppose when they
>get bigger I'll give them back to the LFS. I've
>enjoyed the experience of my first brackish tank,
>anyway.
>
>Gail
>

[Gill Passman]

Fantastic Derek wrote:
> Thanks for that! I went to bed much relieved I can tell you. All of
> the clowns still seem unwilling to spend any time exploring when I'm
> in the room! When I or my wife walk in the room we both see them
> scampering off to the back of the tank. Hopefully they'll get more
> confident.
>
> On Mon, 26 Sep 2005 17:20:37 GMT, "Gail Futoran"
> > wrote:
>
>
>>"Fantastic Derek" > wrote
>>[snip]
>>
>>I was delighted to read your Clown Loach had
>>freed himself. I had no idea what to suggest
>>and hoped someone else would.
>>
>>
>>>However, on another tack, I wanted something to do with my smaller
>>>tank now all of the fish are in my big fella. It was fully cycled and
>>>my wife loves puffers so I did a lot of reading and decided we could
>>>get some dwarf puffers, but when we went in there they didn't have
>>>enough left so I let him talk me into getting a couple of FW spotted
>>>puffers who are ridiculously cute. They've done pretty well, eating
>>>everything that he recommended including flake amazingly, but it
>>>appears to me, having done a little more reading that they may prefer
>>>slightly brackish water as they get older and that they can grow up to
>>>6" so would require a much bigger tank!! Annoying, as I told him what
>>>sixe tnka I had, but I think it's a good lesson never to avidly trust
>>>your LFS guy. He even told me I was reading too much!!
>>
>>I had a similar experience. I bought two "dwarf
>>loaches" that turned out to be the same variety you
>>have. They are cute and I have two as the sole
>>occupants in a 10 gallon brackish (my first) tank.
>>But they're growing fast and I suppose when they
>>get bigger I'll give them back to the LFS. I've
>>enjoyed the experience of my first brackish tank,
>>anyway.
>>
>>Gail
>>
I've noticed that HH recommend treating with Protozin for 3 days after
buying their Clowns....might be worth following that advice...my
experiences with shy clowns have always resulted in an ich outbreak

Gill

[Fantastic Derek]

I was thinking of seeing if there was anything preventative I could do
- I'll look for some tomorrow.

On Mon, 26 Sep 2005 23:45:17 +0100, Gill Passman
> wrote:

>Fantastic Derek wrote:
>> Thanks for that! I went to bed much relieved I can tell you. All of
>> the clowns still seem unwilling to spend any time exploring when I'm
>> in the room! When I or my wife walk in the room we both see them
>> scampering off to the back of the tank. Hopefully they'll get more
>> confident.
>>
>> On Mon, 26 Sep 2005 17:20:37 GMT, "Gail Futoran"
>> > wrote:
>>
>>
>>>"Fantastic Derek" > wrote
>>>[snip]
>>>
>>>I was delighted to read your Clown Loach had
>>>freed himself. I had no idea what to suggest
>>>and hoped someone else would.
>>>
>>>
>>>>However, on another tack, I wanted something to do with my smaller
>>>>tank now all of the fish are in my big fella. It was fully cycled and
>>>>my wife loves puffers so I did a lot of reading and decided we could
>>>>get some dwarf puffers, but when we went in there they didn't have
>>>>enough left so I let him talk me into getting a couple of FW spotted
>>>>puffers who are ridiculously cute. They've done pretty well, eating
>>>>everything that he recommended including flake amazingly, but it
>>>>appears to me, having done a little more reading that they may prefer
>>>>slightly brackish water as they get older and that they can grow up to
>>>>6" so would require a much bigger tank!! Annoying, as I told him what
>>>>sixe tnka I had, but I think it's a good lesson never to avidly trust
>>>>your LFS guy. He even told me I was reading too much!!
>>>
>>>I had a similar experience. I bought two "dwarf
>>>loaches" that turned out to be the same variety you
>>>have. They are cute and I have two as the sole
>>>occupants in a 10 gallon brackish (my first) tank.
>>>But they're growing fast and I suppose when they
>>>get bigger I'll give them back to the LFS. I've
>>>enjoyed the experience of my first brackish tank,
>>>anyway.
>>>
>>>Gail
>>>
> I've noticed that HH recommend treating with Protozin for 3 days after
>buying their Clowns....might be worth following that advice...my
>experiences with shy clowns have always resulted in an ich outbreak
>
>Gill

[Gill Passman]

Fantastic Derek wrote:
> The small tank is only a 2 foot one. I think you're right. It's
> definitely better to get your own information which goes against my
> natural bent as an impulse buyer!!
>
> On Mon, 26 Sep 2005 12:34:54 +0100, Gill Passman
> > wrote:
>
>
>>Fantastic Derek wrote:
>>
>>>Didn't you buy those rams from our Welsh friend? I've not lost any of
>>>his fish although I have had cause to question his advice. We took
>>>back one of our two males that we had as they were always fighting and
>>>swapped him for a small one from the Gold strain they have there which
>>>he told me was female. These two don't fight at all, but the smaller,
>>>gold one, I'm sure is a male. It's third ray points out above the
>>>rest. No harm though as we swapped them to avoid the bullying/
>>>fighting and this has definitely happened.
>>>
>>>However, on another tack, I wanted something to do with my smaller
>>>tank now all of the fish are in my big fella. It was fully cycled and
>>>my wife loves puffers so I did a lot of reading and decided we could
>>>get some dwarf puffers, but when we went in there they didn't have
>>>enough left so I let him talk me into getting a couple of FW spotted
>>>puffers who are ridiculously cute. They've done pretty well, eating
>>>everything that he recommended including flake amazingly, but it
>>>appears to me, having done a little more reading that they may prefer
>>>slightly brackish water as they get older and that they can grow up to
>>>6" so would require a much bigger tank!! Annoying, as I told him what
>>>sixe tnka I had, but I think it's a good lesson never to avidly trust
>>>your LFS guy. He even told me I was reading too much!!
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>LOL - he tells me I spend too much time on Newsgroups!!!! and woe betide
>>you if you describe "White Spot" as "Ich" :-)
>>
>>How big is your smaller tank? I've never been tempted by puffers with
>>the exception of the Mbu puffers they had at Hare Hatch - hasty reading
>>put me off them tho' - don't have a tank big enough - but they were
>>really cute the way they watched you from the tank.
>>
>>I've reached the point where I tend to just buy the fish I want and have
>>already researched rather than relying on advice from any of the guys at
>>MA. I must admit I sometimes research something unsuitable that they
>>have on sale and then ask them if they would be suitable for my set up.
>>Naughty I know, but I almost always get the right answer back.
>>
>>My two Dutch Rams are definitely Male/Female but I was told that it was
>>very easy to tell the sexes (by H) although when I had my last venture
>>into Ram ownership I was told it was almost impossible to tell the sexes
>>(by H). Hmmmmm
>>
>>Gill


Yeah, we all impulse buy sometimes....2 foot I guess makes it around
55L/15UK gall like my kitchen tank...12" of fish would be OK if you
don't add anything else...if tempted I suggest planning for the next
tank - lol. Maybe the H guy wasn't totally wrong...

Gill

[Gail Futoran]

"Fantastic Derek" > wrote in message
...
> Thanks for that! I went to bed much relieved I can tell you. All of
> the clowns still seem unwilling to spend any time exploring when I'm
> in the room! When I or my wife walk in the room we both see them
> scampering off to the back of the tank. Hopefully they'll get more
> confident.

Other people can give you better advice about
Clowns, since I've never had any. But my three
varieties of botia (loach?) - Skunk botia, Kuhli
loach, and YoYo loach - all are "shy" compared
to, say, Cory cats that are almost always hanging
around in sight. The various loaches hide in or
under things. It's rare I see them out during the
day and I enjoy it when I do see them.

Gail

[Fantastic Derek]

I don't know. Everywhere I've read suggests that puffers are a little
different being very messy. The dwarf puffers I was looking at require
3-5 gallons each and they don't get much bigger than an inch
apparantly. These fellas I've got are supposed to get to over 6 and he
reccomended I get another 3 in a couple of weeks!! I think I'll leave
it for now though. They seem ok apart from being obsessed with
swimming up and down one side of the tank. Very amusing little chaps
though.


On Mon, 26 Sep 2005 23:48:35 +0100, Gill Passman
> wrote:

>Fantastic Derek wrote:
>> The small tank is only a 2 foot one. I think you're right. It's
>> definitely better to get your own information which goes against my
>> natural bent as an impulse buyer!!
>>
>> On Mon, 26 Sep 2005 12:34:54 +0100, Gill Passman
>> > wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Fantastic Derek wrote:
>>>
>>>>Didn't you buy those rams from our Welsh friend? I've not lost any of
>>>>his fish although I have had cause to question his advice. We took
>>>>back one of our two males that we had as they were always fighting and
>>>>swapped him for a small one from the Gold strain they have there which
>>>>he told me was female. These two don't fight at all, but the smaller,
>>>>gold one, I'm sure is a male. It's third ray points out above the
>>>>rest. No harm though as we swapped them to avoid the bullying/
>>>>fighting and this has definitely happened.
>>>>
>>>>However, on another tack, I wanted something to do with my smaller
>>>>tank now all of the fish are in my big fella. It was fully cycled and
>>>>my wife loves puffers so I did a lot of reading and decided we could
>>>>get some dwarf puffers, but when we went in there they didn't have
>>>>enough left so I let him talk me into getting a couple of FW spotted
>>>>puffers who are ridiculously cute. They've done pretty well, eating
>>>>everything that he recommended including flake amazingly, but it
>>>>appears to me, having done a little more reading that they may prefer
>>>>slightly brackish water as they get older and that they can grow up to
>>>>6" so would require a much bigger tank!! Annoying, as I told him what
>>>>sixe tnka I had, but I think it's a good lesson never to avidly trust
>>>>your LFS guy. He even told me I was reading too much!!
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>LOL - he tells me I spend too much time on Newsgroups!!!! and woe betide
>>>you if you describe "White Spot" as "Ich" :-)
>>>
>>>How big is your smaller tank? I've never been tempted by puffers with
>>>the exception of the Mbu puffers they had at Hare Hatch - hasty reading
>>>put me off them tho' - don't have a tank big enough - but they were
>>>really cute the way they watched you from the tank.
>>>
>>>I've reached the point where I tend to just buy the fish I want and have
>>>already researched rather than relying on advice from any of the guys at
>>>MA. I must admit I sometimes research something unsuitable that they
>>>have on sale and then ask them if they would be suitable for my set up.
>>>Naughty I know, but I almost always get the right answer back.
>>>
>>>My two Dutch Rams are definitely Male/Female but I was told that it was
>>>very easy to tell the sexes (by H) although when I had my last venture
>>>into Ram ownership I was told it was almost impossible to tell the sexes
>>>(by H). Hmmmmm
>>>
>>>Gill
>
>
>Yeah, we all impulse buy sometimes....2 foot I guess makes it around
>55L/15UK gall like my kitchen tank...12" of fish would be OK if you
>don't add anything else...if tempted I suggest planning for the next
>tank - lol. Maybe the H guy wasn't totally wrong...
>
>Gill

[NetMax]

"Fantastic Derek" > wrote in message
...
>I don't know. Everywhere I've read suggests that puffers are a little
> different being very messy. The dwarf puffers I was looking at require
> 3-5 gallons each and they don't get much bigger than an inch
> apparantly. These fellas I've got are supposed to get to over 6 and he
> reccomended I get another 3 in a couple of weeks!! I think I'll leave
> it for now though. They seem ok apart from being obsessed with
> swimming up and down one side of the tank. Very amusing little chaps
> though.

If you are willing to take the risk of reading too much ;~), here is
where I go about puffers.
http://puffernet.tripod.com/main.html

I don't know if this is applicable to brackish puffers, but it's not
unusual for brackish fishes to spawn upstream (freshwater) and grow up as
they make their way back to the river's mouth to the ocean/sea
(brackish). Keeping juveniles in freshwater might be perfectly fine, but
as adults, they would prefer a higher level of salinity. ymmv
--
www.NetMax.tk