Expected percentage loss of newly bought fish

[Gill Passman]

Hi All,

I just want to take a straw poll of what everyone's expected losses
would be when buying new fish....I know if we lived in an ideal world it
would be zero but we have to factor in the stress of travel, new
location, different water parameters, disease etc....

For a number of reasons I have been purchasing a largish number of new
fish in the last month - restocking, starting a new tank and finishing
another one. I have the following casualty rate spread across 3 tanks -
2 established and one seeded...

Total purchased from two different LFS's 46
Casualties 14

Total purchased from one LFS 30
Total casualties 10

Total purchased from LFS number two 16
Total Casualties 4 (store credit given as they believed there was an
inherent problem with the stock they had)

It has to be stressed that none of my established fish have died or
shown any signs of illness since these additions.

Not having ever really done a statistical analysis (or any counting on
fatalities before) as I've never bought this number of fish over a short
period before I would be curious to know if these death rates on new
fish meet everyone elses experience before going charging in brandishing
my piece of paper and stats....

gill

[Elaine T]

Gill Passman wrote:
> Hi All,
>
> I just want to take a straw poll of what everyone's expected losses
> would be when buying new fish....I know if we lived in an ideal world it
> would be zero but we have to factor in the stress of travel, new
> location, different water parameters, disease etc....
>
> For a number of reasons I have been purchasing a largish number of new
> fish in the last month - restocking, starting a new tank and finishing
> another one. I have the following casualty rate spread across 3 tanks -
> 2 established and one seeded...
>
> Total purchased from two different LFS's 46
> Casualties 14
>
> Total purchased from one LFS 30
> Total casualties 10
>
> Total purchased from LFS number two 16
> Total Casualties 4 (store credit given as they believed there was an
> inherent problem with the stock they had)
>
> It has to be stressed that none of my established fish have died or
> shown any signs of illness since these additions.
>
> Not having ever really done a statistical analysis (or any counting on
> fatalities before) as I've never bought this number of fish over a short
> period before I would be curious to know if these death rates on new
> fish meet everyone elses experience before going charging in brandishing
> my piece of paper and stats....
>
> gill

Since I started my tanks again at the beginning of the year, fish that I
consider "sick from the store" and lost within the first couple weeks I
had them are:

LFS #1
Total purchased: 40
Total casualties in first few weeks: 6
Three otos, one SAE, one cardinal, one ram - sensitive fish, mostly

Other LFS and chains including WalMart and PetSmart
Total purchased: 16
Total casualties in first few weeks: 1 ryukin

Aquarium society
Toal purchased: 10
Total casualties in first weeks: 1, but it was a ram in much lower pH
than my tanks. I wouldn't have bought him had I known.

--
Elaine T __
http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><
rec.aquaria.* FAQ http://faq.thekrib.com

[Justin Boucher]

Perhaps my fish purchasing practices are different or maybe just my hobby
set up for I only have one large tank and do not change my stock often. In
fact, the most tanks I've had running at a time was only 4 and that was for
a short period of time.

As for what I expect in a death rate when purchasing new fish... Zero. In
defense to this I must say that I have not had a system that focused on
large numbers of small fish such as tetras. I have kept numbers of some
smaller fish as high as 9 but I only built up to that level in fear of
overloading the biofilter and mini-cycling the tank to dangerous levels.

My purchases consist mostly of 4 or less fish at any given time and I
currently only have a stock limit of 18 fish in my 240gal. With this, I
feel that an expected death rate of zero is reasonable. This is not to say
that I have not had any deaths, just that the expectation is complete
survival.

Justin

"Elaine T" > wrote in message
m...
> Gill Passman wrote:
> > Hi All,
> >
> > I just want to take a straw poll of what everyone's expected losses
> > would be when buying new fish....I know if we lived in an ideal world it
> > would be zero but we have to factor in the stress of travel, new
> > location, different water parameters, disease etc....
> >
> > For a number of reasons I have been purchasing a largish number of new
> > fish in the last month - restocking, starting a new tank and finishing
> > another one. I have the following casualty rate spread across 3 tanks -
> > 2 established and one seeded...
> >
> > Total purchased from two different LFS's 46
> > Casualties 14
> >
> > Total purchased from one LFS 30
> > Total casualties 10
> >
> > Total purchased from LFS number two 16
> > Total Casualties 4 (store credit given as they believed there was an
> > inherent problem with the stock they had)
> >
> > It has to be stressed that none of my established fish have died or
> > shown any signs of illness since these additions.
> >
> > Not having ever really done a statistical analysis (or any counting on
> > fatalities before) as I've never bought this number of fish over a short
> > period before I would be curious to know if these death rates on new
> > fish meet everyone elses experience before going charging in brandishing
> > my piece of paper and stats....
> >
> > gill
>
> Since I started my tanks again at the beginning of the year, fish that I
> consider "sick from the store" and lost within the first couple weeks I
> had them are:
>
> LFS #1
> Total purchased: 40
> Total casualties in first few weeks: 6
> Three otos, one SAE, one cardinal, one ram - sensitive fish, mostly
>
> Other LFS and chains including WalMart and PetSmart
> Total purchased: 16
> Total casualties in first few weeks: 1 ryukin
>
> Aquarium society
> Toal purchased: 10
> Total casualties in first weeks: 1, but it was a ram in much lower pH
> than my tanks. I wouldn't have bought him had I known.
>
> --
> Elaine T __
> http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><
> rec.aquaria.* FAQ http://faq.thekrib.com

[Dick]

On Mon, 26 Sep 2005 22:34:06 +0100, Gill Passman
> wrote:

>Hi All,
>
>I just want to take a straw poll of what everyone's expected losses
>would be when buying new fish....I know if we lived in an ideal world it
>would be zero but we have to factor in the stress of travel, new
>location, different water parameters, disease etc....
>
>For a number of reasons I have been purchasing a largish number of new
>fish in the last month - restocking, starting a new tank and finishing
>another one. I have the following casualty rate spread across 3 tanks -
>2 established and one seeded...
>
>Total purchased from two different LFS's 46
>Casualties 14
>
>Total purchased from one LFS 30
>Total casualties 10
>
>Total purchased from LFS number two 16
>Total Casualties 4 (store credit given as they believed there was an
>inherent problem with the stock they had)
>
>It has to be stressed that none of my established fish have died or
>shown any signs of illness since these additions.
>
>Not having ever really done a statistical analysis (or any counting on
>fatalities before) as I've never bought this number of fish over a short
>period before I would be curious to know if these death rates on new
>fish meet everyone elses experience before going charging in brandishing
>my piece of paper and stats....
>
>gill


I have stocked 4 tanks through the internet with a total of about 100
fish. The only problem came from a shipment of 6 sick (Ick) Clown
Loaches. The dealer confirmed they had accidentally shipped the sick
Clowns and eventually replaced them.

Subsequent deaths, months and years, later, were due to my errors,
old age or unknown individual sickness.

A friend added some fish to her 8 year old tank and lost half. They
were from one internet vendor and seemed rather small. She later
drove to Odessa, Texas and bought some more fish and none died.

dick

[Gill Passman]

Elaine T wrote:
> Gill Passman wrote:
>
>> Hi All,
>>
>> I just want to take a straw poll of what everyone's expected losses
>> would be when buying new fish....I know if we lived in an ideal world
>> it would be zero but we have to factor in the stress of travel, new
>> location, different water parameters, disease etc....
>>
>> For a number of reasons I have been purchasing a largish number of new
>> fish in the last month - restocking, starting a new tank and finishing
>> another one. I have the following casualty rate spread across 3 tanks
>> - 2 established and one seeded...
>>
>> Total purchased from two different LFS's 46
>> Casualties 14
>>
>> Total purchased from one LFS 30
>> Total casualties 10
>>
>> Total purchased from LFS number two 16
>> Total Casualties 4 (store credit given as they believed there was an
>> inherent problem with the stock they had)
>>
>> It has to be stressed that none of my established fish have died or
>> shown any signs of illness since these additions.
>>
>> Not having ever really done a statistical analysis (or any counting on
>> fatalities before) as I've never bought this number of fish over a
>> short period before I would be curious to know if these death rates on
>> new fish meet everyone elses experience before going charging in
>> brandishing my piece of paper and stats....
>>
>> gill
>
>
> Since I started my tanks again at the beginning of the year, fish that I
> consider "sick from the store" and lost within the first couple weeks I
> had them are:
>
> LFS #1
> Total purchased: 40
> Total casualties in first few weeks: 6
> Three otos, one SAE, one cardinal, one ram - sensitive fish, mostly
>
> Other LFS and chains including WalMart and PetSmart
> Total purchased: 16
> Total casualties in first few weeks: 1 ryukin
>
> Aquarium society
> Toal purchased: 10
> Total casualties in first weeks: 1, but it was a ram in much lower pH
> than my tanks. I wouldn't have bought him had I known.
>
> --
> Elaine T __
> http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><
> rec.aquaria.* FAQ http://faq.thekrib.com


3 Clowns and 3 Neon Tetras from Ich but there was a small trace of
nitrite in the water so possibly my fault. All of the other losses were
in established tanks that are consistently 0 for nitrites/ammonia and
actually also nitrates as they are heavily planted. pH is 8 (so might
not suit the rams or the neons although it is the same as the LFS water).

1 Rummy Nose Tetra (possibly delicate - other 5 are just fine)
1 Ram (delicate)
1 YoYo (possibly also delicate)
1 Red Rainbow (not sure how delicate but the other two are just fine and
spawning in the Java Fern much to the delight of the Clowns who treat it
as free lunch)

I suppose when you go out and buy fish over a longer period as would
normally happen the odd deaths of newbies don't seem so obvious. But it
looks like my percentage losses are higher than yours....this has been
over a period of a month....I wonder if they have changed anything that
they do at the LFS as they have always been very reliable in the past.

Gill

[teri]

>I just want to take a straw poll of what everyone's expected losses
>would be when buying new fish....I know if we lived in an ideal world it
>would be zero but we have to factor in the stress of travel, new
>location, different water parameters, disease etc....
Brand brand newbie - started three gallon "tank" in April, changed to
20G in June.

Total 19 fish bought in that time.
1 died after one month - seemed to be struggling for a few weeks
before she died.
1 after 6 weeks - no signs of illness until that morning.

All from Petco.

Teri

[Gill Passman]

Gill Passman wrote:
> Hi All,
>
> I just want to take a straw poll of what everyone's expected losses
> would be when buying new fish....I know if we lived in an ideal world it
> would be zero but we have to factor in the stress of travel, new
> location, different water parameters, disease etc....
>
> For a number of reasons I have been purchasing a largish number of new
> fish in the last month - restocking, starting a new tank and finishing
> another one. I have the following casualty rate spread across 3 tanks -
> 2 established and one seeded...
>
> Total purchased from two different LFS's 46
> Casualties 14
>
> Total purchased from one LFS 30
> Total casualties 10
>
> Total purchased from LFS number two 16
> Total Casualties 4 (store credit given as they believed there was an
> inherent problem with the stock they had)
>
> It has to be stressed that none of my established fish have died or
> shown any signs of illness since these additions.
>
> Not having ever really done a statistical analysis (or any counting on
> fatalities before) as I've never bought this number of fish over a short
> period before I would be curious to know if these death rates on new
> fish meet everyone elses experience before going charging in brandishing
> my piece of paper and stats....
>
> gill

Lost another Ram this morning so went to LFS clutching my list of
purchases and fatalities. It was agreed that the number of losses are
way too high but no clear picture of the reasons....Got the usual
questioning as to water parameters, stocking levels, maintenance, health
of other fish and a credit....So although not happy with the losses I
feel I've been treated fairly by the LFS....

Gill

[IDzine01]

In the last 2 years I have purchased a total of 36 fish.

I have had 1 death that I can attribute to the store/acclimation period
and that was the smaller of the two dwarf puffers. (very sensitive) I
have purchased some very sick bettas but all recovered fully.

[Dick]

On 29 Sep 2005 15:22:02 -0700, "IDzine01" >
wrote:

>In the last 2 years I have purchased a total of 36 fish.
>
>I have had 1 death that I can attribute to the store/acclimation period
>and that was the smaller of the two dwarf puffers. (very sensitive) I
>have purchased some very sick bettas but all recovered fully.

I wonder if the age of the tanks (water conditions) is a factor? Are
there higher percentage of problems with newly established tanks or
older ones?

How about planted versus not planted?

Water change amount and frequency?


dick

[Gill Passman]

Dick wrote:
> On 29 Sep 2005 15:22:02 -0700, "IDzine01" >
> wrote:
>
>
>>In the last 2 years I have purchased a total of 36 fish.
>>
>>I have had 1 death that I can attribute to the store/acclimation period
>>and that was the smaller of the two dwarf puffers. (very sensitive) I
>>have purchased some very sick bettas but all recovered fully.
>
>
> I wonder if the age of the tanks (water conditions) is a factor? Are
> there higher percentage of problems with newly established tanks or
> older ones?
>
> How about planted versus not planted?
>
> Water change amount and frequency?
>
>
> dick

It was across 3 heavily planted tanks - two were established and the
other one was seeded and closely monitored for ammonia/nitrite - in fact
I actually tend to do daily tests on any tank that has had additions.
Water changes are usually weekly (around 20%) and more frequently if
there is a specific problem. Apart from a problem with YoYo loaches any
fish purchased elsewhere were fine - in fact from what I am being told
there appears to be a general problem locally with YoYo's - the Yoyos
were just in one tank and they were the only losses from that tank -
they came from two different sources but I'm wondering if the supply was
the same.

All existing fish are absolutely fine and those fish that made it
through the first few weeks are also not giving any cause for concern...
so it's now wait and see

Gill

[Dick]

On Fri, 30 Sep 2005 11:07:54 +0100, Gill Passman
> wrote:

>Dick wrote:
>> On 29 Sep 2005 15:22:02 -0700, "IDzine01" >
>> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>In the last 2 years I have purchased a total of 36 fish.
>>>
>>>I have had 1 death that I can attribute to the store/acclimation period
>>>and that was the smaller of the two dwarf puffers. (very sensitive) I
>>>have purchased some very sick bettas but all recovered fully.
>>
>>
>> I wonder if the age of the tanks (water conditions) is a factor? Are
>> there higher percentage of problems with newly established tanks or
>> older ones?
>>
>> How about planted versus not planted?
>>
>> Water change amount and frequency?
>>
>>
>> dick
>
>It was across 3 heavily planted tanks - two were established and the
>other one was seeded and closely monitored for ammonia/nitrite - in fact
>I actually tend to do daily tests on any tank that has had additions.
>Water changes are usually weekly (around 20%) and more frequently if
>there is a specific problem. Apart from a problem with YoYo loaches any
>fish purchased elsewhere were fine - in fact from what I am being told
>there appears to be a general problem locally with YoYo's - the Yoyos
>were just in one tank and they were the only losses from that tank -
>they came from two different sources but I'm wondering if the supply was
>the same.
>
>All existing fish are absolutely fine and those fish that made it
>through the first few weeks are also not giving any cause for concern...
>so it's now wait and see
>
>Gill
>
>
Good luck Gill, these mysteries are so frustrating. I know we all
want our "wards" to thrive and survive.

dick

[Kate]

I find the quality of fish from MA very variable.
I once bought 6 neons from their outlet at Syon, and added them to a large,
well-established tank.
All of them died within the week, plus a high proportion of the existing
fish.
Fortunately my seven year old clown survived.

After that I invested in a quarantine tank.

Kate

Gill Passman" > wrote in message
.. .
> Hi All,
>
> I just want to take a straw poll of what everyone's expected losses
> would be when buying new fish....I know if we lived in an ideal world it
> would be zero but we have to factor in the stress of travel, new
> location, different water parameters, disease etc....
>
> For a number of reasons I have been purchasing a largish number of new
> fish in the last month - restocking, starting a new tank and finishing
> another one. I have the following casualty rate spread across 3 tanks -
> 2 established and one seeded...
>
> Total purchased from two different LFS's 46
> Casualties 14
>
> Total purchased from one LFS 30
> Total casualties 10
>
> Total purchased from LFS number two 16
> Total Casualties 4 (store credit given as they believed there was an
> inherent problem with the stock they had)
>
> It has to be stressed that none of my established fish have died or
> shown any signs of illness since these additions.
>
> Not having ever really done a statistical analysis (or any counting on
> fatalities before) as I've never bought this number of fish over a short
> period before I would be curious to know if these death rates on new
> fish meet everyone elses experience before going charging in brandishing
> my piece of paper and stats....
>
> gill

[Gill Passman]

Kate wrote:
> I find the quality of fish from MA very variable.
> I once bought 6 neons from their outlet at Syon, and added them to a large,
> well-established tank.
> All of them died within the week, plus a high proportion of the existing
> fish.
> Fortunately my seven year old clown survived.
>
> After that I invested in a quarantine tank.
>
> Kate
>
> Gill Passman" > wrote in message
> .. .
>
>>Hi All,
>>
>>I just want to take a straw poll of what everyone's expected losses
>>would be when buying new fish....I know if we lived in an ideal world it
>>would be zero but we have to factor in the stress of travel, new
>>location, different water parameters, disease etc....
>>
>>For a number of reasons I have been purchasing a largish number of new
>>fish in the last month - restocking, starting a new tank and finishing
>>another one. I have the following casualty rate spread across 3 tanks -
>>2 established and one seeded...
>>
>>Total purchased from two different LFS's 46
>>Casualties 14
>>
>>Total purchased from one LFS 30
>>Total casualties 10
>>
>>Total purchased from LFS number two 16
>>Total Casualties 4 (store credit given as they believed there was an
>>inherent problem with the stock they had)
>>
>>It has to be stressed that none of my established fish have died or
>>shown any signs of illness since these additions.
>>
>>Not having ever really done a statistical analysis (or any counting on
>>fatalities before) as I've never bought this number of fish over a short
>>period before I would be curious to know if these death rates on new
>>fish meet everyone elses experience before going charging in brandishing
>>my piece of paper and stats....
>>
>>gill
>
>
>

I think I tend to agree with you....in fact I tend to buy mainly from
one MA then hit a problem and switch to another and then hit a problem
and switch back....think it's swings and roundabouts....I'm am so sorry
that your experience was worse than mine - with me it was just the new
fish not the established.

Did you go back and tell them? I have found they do react and give
credit to a certain degree. However, one MA has suggested that I don't
buy fish from them for a while to see if I get the same proportion of
losses with different buying habits - shame, I've got a £20 credit note
and you can only spend it in the branch that gave it - guess my fish are
going to get lucky on the frozen bloodworm, daphinia and brine shrimp :-)

Gill

[Victor Martinez]

Gill Passman wrote:
> I just want to take a straw poll of what everyone's expected losses
> would be when buying new fish....I know if we lived in an ideal world it
> would be zero but we have to factor in the stress of travel, new
> location, different water parameters, disease etc....

Last time I bought fish was a few weeks back, got 10 cardinal tetras
from the good LFS. No casualties yet. :)
They usually have very healthy stock, the only times I've lost fish
fromt here it was my fault. :(

--
Victor M. Martinez
Owned and operated by the Fantastic Seven (TM)
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