Stockman overflow USERS

[John]

I plan on implementing the Stockman overflow. Use this link
http://www.rl180reef.com/pages/standpipe/standpipe-ken_stockman.htm
Does one position the overflow pipe submerged, partially submerged, or
completely above the waterline AS IT ENTERS THE SUMP.

tia

[Greg Hewitt-Long]

"John" > wrote in message >...
> I plan on implementing the Stockman overflow. Use this link
> http://www.rl180reef.com/pages/standpipe/standpipe-ken_stockman.htm
> Does one position the overflow pipe submerged, partially submerged, or
> completely above the waterline AS IT ENTERS THE SUMP.
>

Do you mean the overflow box? Mine is in my overflow, on the portion
that sits outside the tank.

Anyway - as per the photo on the page you linked, mine sits such that
the water from the previous chamber only has to drop about 1/8 of an
inch before it goes down the standpipe.

when I first installed the pipe, the down-pipe was perhaps 1/2 inch
too long - this meant that the siphon overflow I used was not having
to drop at all into the final chamber - it was a simple matter to chop
1/2 inch off and it cured the "problem".

For what it's worth, the end-cap and 3/4 of the slip reducer sit above
the water, and that's not a problem at all. The big issue was the
noise - it's GONE!

I previously had a sponge surrounding the down-pipe - it collected
debris as a first phase filter - and I tried to install it on the pipe
itself - that was a complete failure, as it slowed the flow too much -
I have now worked out that it's not a bad thing - my standpipe need to
be cleaned about every 2nd week - the first filter I clean weekly
above my bio-balls.

This has all but silenced the overflow - it was the best $3 of plastic
I've ever bought!

hth

Greg
> tia

[Raymond]

"John" > wrote in message >...
> I plan on implementing the Stockman overflow. Use this link
> http://www.rl180reef.com/pages/standpipe/standpipe-ken_stockman.htm
> Does one position the overflow pipe submerged, partially submerged, or
> completely above the waterline AS IT ENTERS THE SUMP.
>
> tia

The drain line from the overflow can be above, at, or below the water
line in your sump. Above produces zero back pressure and doesn't allow
air to build up and then bubble out with the associated noise. It also
tends to add noise from the water splashing as it enters the sump. At
the surface of the water is hard to do as the water level varies in
most sumps. When the drain line is at the surface you have low splash
noise with minimal air getting trapped and then burping. Below the
water level stops a lot of surface splashing noise. However it can
cause problems with air getting trapped in the line and building up
until it burps. The burp can cause significant noise. The way I have
handled this in the past was to install a tee in the line just above
the water level with the drain line going on down past the water line.
The tee allows the trapped air to escape without as much noise. You
may have to work with it some to keep the tee from introducing noise
of its own. All of the above will vary depending on the amount of
water coming down and the size of the pipe it is going through.

I hope this helps.
Raymond

[Dragon Slayer]

to help cut down on the 'burp' as you put it, I cut a piece of acrylic that
fit perfectly over my outside overflow box and around the U-Tube. I used
clear tape to 'seal' it around the sides and its perfectly quiet now.

the only draw back I've found is the overflow box is where I used to add top
off water, now I just add it directly in the sump.

kc

[Raymond]

"Dragon Slayer" > wrote in message >...
> to help cut down on the 'burp' as you put it, I cut a piece of acrylic that
> fit perfectly over my outside overflow box and around the U-Tube. I used
> clear tape to 'seal' it around the sides and its perfectly quiet now.
>
> the only draw back I've found is the overflow box is where I used to add top
> off water, now I just add it directly in the sump.
>
> kc

Hmm I guess I used the wrong term. I was trying to describe the air
being burped from the drain pipe as it enters the sump not the
gargling noise that is heard from the top. I guess that would be a
fart instead of a burp. :)
The noise at the top can be made virtually silent with the use of a
Stockman or Durso stand pipe.

FWIW
Raymond

[Dragon Slayer]

if your overflow enters your sump below water level its all but impossible
to prevent the 'burp/fart'

the reason i added the cover as opposed to s durso or stokman is because of
limited space. while i have never used the stockman the durso will surge if
you have the sump entry below water level and allow back pressure on the
standpipe IME.

kc

[Benjamin]

Mine enters below the level of the sump. Depending on how high I take the
sumps water level it could be as much as 4 inches below sump water level. I
get no burping, surging, or other annoyances unless I let the water level
fall below the tube then I hear the water hitting water sound. I think
there are two reasons for that. One is the use of rigid tubing and the
other is the amount of airflow I allow into the top end.

Near as I can figure the goal is to find a balance between the functions of
the parts involved in a particular setup to avoid noise. The rest of my
views, experience, and opinion on Durso style standpipes can be found at:

http://showcase.netins.net/web/reefpage/hardware/standpipe.html

--
--

My Web Site: http://showcase.netins.net/web/reefpage/



"Dragon Slayer" > wrote in message
...
> if your overflow enters your sump below water level its all but impossible
> to prevent the 'burp/fart'
>
> the reason i added the cover as opposed to s durso or stokman is because
of
> limited space. while i have never used the stockman the durso will surge
if
> you have the sump entry below water level and allow back pressure on the
> standpipe IME.
>
> kc
>
>

[Raymond]

"Benjamin" > wrote in message >...
> Mine enters below the level of the sump. Depending on how high I take the
> sumps water level it could be as much as 4 inches below sump water level. I
> get no burping, surging, or other annoyances unless I let the water level
> fall below the tube then I hear the water hitting water sound. I think
> there are two reasons for that. One is the use of rigid tubing and the
> other is the amount of airflow I allow into the top end.
>
> Near as I can figure the goal is to find a balance between the functions of
> the parts involved in a particular setup to avoid noise. The rest of my
> views, experience, and opinion on Durso style standpipes can be found at:
>
> http://showcase.netins.net/web/reefpage/hardware/standpipe.html
>
> --
> --
>
> My Web Site: http://showcase.netins.net/web/reefpage/
>
>
>
> "Dragon Slayer" > wrote in message
> ...
> > if your overflow enters your sump below water level its all but impossible
> > to prevent the 'burp/fart'
> >
> > the reason i added the cover as opposed to s durso or stokman is because
> of
> > limited space. while i have never used the stockman the durso will surge
> if
> > you have the sump entry below water level and allow back pressure on the
> > standpipe IME.
> >
> > kc
> >
> >

On the burp/fart, it can be prevented by providing/forcing the air out
of the line before it hits the sump. It isn't always easy and may
require a direction change to do it but it can be done.

I found these last two posts very interesting. I have never understood
the little hole at the top part of either the durso or stockman. They
even have you tune it to control the water level in the overflow area
with a air valve. Don't ask me why. The only modification I made was
to this part. The small hole part is what makes it surge and causes
the water level to vary. If the hole is too small then it causes a
partial siphon and does the toilet flushing thing. If it is larger
then it allows more noise out. I read Benjamin's link and found it
interesting as it is the perfect example of the partial siphon
problem. I solved it in a vary similar fashion. After I had reduced it
to a female pipe thread (like Benjamin did) I then put a MPT to 1/4
inch hose barb adaptor in and then cut the top 3/4 of the hose barb
off just leaving a little nub. This does let a little more noise out
the top but is big enough to allow unrestricted air flow in to prevent
siphoning problems. It was then easy to address the noise out the top
with a little muffler. The muffler can be made with interlocked/nested
pvc couplers and end caps that are modified so they have teeth to
allow air through. I can try to describe this better if you want me
to. The noise from the bottom side of the bulk head can be addressed
with flexible tubing or with rigid tubing. The key is to change the
water direction a little. With rigid tubing it can be done with a 45
degree elbow or even better a 22 1/2 degree elbow. With the flexible
tubing it is very easy and natural as most is stored coiled up. I
thought at one time the this area was also the best area to purge air
but found later that this is incorrect. The best place to purge air is
just before it hits the water in the sump. If you do a direction
change into a tee with the water flowing through the tee and the tee
part open to the air to allow the pressure to bleed off then it can't
build up pressure to do the burp/fart thing.

FWIW
Raymond

[Dragon Slayer]

I cured the noise and surge of my durso standpipes on my 180 by starting the
hole with a #60 drill bit and working my way up (down in # but up in size)
until I got no surge and no noise. been working without a hitch for almost
3 months now.

kc

"Raymond" > wrote in message
om...
> "Benjamin" > wrote in message
>...
> > Mine enters below the level of the sump. Depending on how high I take
the
> > sumps water level it could be as much as 4 inches below sump water
level. I
> > get no burping, surging, or other annoyances unless I let the water
level
> > fall below the tube then I hear the water hitting water sound. I think
> > there are two reasons for that. One is the use of rigid tubing and the
> > other is the amount of airflow I allow into the top end.
> >
> > Near as I can figure the goal is to find a balance between the functions
of
> > the parts involved in a particular setup to avoid noise. The rest of my
> > views, experience, and opinion on Durso style standpipes can be found
at:
> >
> > http://showcase.netins.net/web/reefpage/hardware/standpipe.html
> >
> > --
> > --
> >
> > My Web Site: http://showcase.netins.net/web/reefpage/
> >
> >
> >
> > "Dragon Slayer" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > > if your overflow enters your sump below water level its all but
impossible
> > > to prevent the 'burp/fart'
> > >
> > > the reason i added the cover as opposed to s durso or stokman is
because
> > of
> > > limited space. while i have never used the stockman the durso will
surge
> > if
> > > you have the sump entry below water level and allow back pressure on
the
> > > standpipe IME.
> > >
> > > kc
> > >
> > >
>
> On the burp/fart, it can be prevented by providing/forcing the air out
> of the line before it hits the sump. It isn't always easy and may
> require a direction change to do it but it can be done.
>
> I found these last two posts very interesting. I have never understood
> the little hole at the top part of either the durso or stockman. They
> even have you tune it to control the water level in the overflow area
> with a air valve. Don't ask me why. The only modification I made was
> to this part. The small hole part is what makes it surge and causes
> the water level to vary. If the hole is too small then it causes a
> partial siphon and does the toilet flushing thing. If it is larger
> then it allows more noise out. I read Benjamin's link and found it
> interesting as it is the perfect example of the partial siphon
> problem. I solved it in a vary similar fashion. After I had reduced it
> to a female pipe thread (like Benjamin did) I then put a MPT to 1/4
> inch hose barb adaptor in and then cut the top 3/4 of the hose barb
> off just leaving a little nub. This does let a little more noise out
> the top but is big enough to allow unrestricted air flow in to prevent
> siphoning problems. It was then easy to address the noise out the top
> with a little muffler. The muffler can be made with interlocked/nested
> pvc couplers and end caps that are modified so they have teeth to
> allow air through. I can try to describe this better if you want me
> to. The noise from the bottom side of the bulk head can be addressed
> with flexible tubing or with rigid tubing. The key is to change the
> water direction a little. With rigid tubing it can be done with a 45
> degree elbow or even better a 22 1/2 degree elbow. With the flexible
> tubing it is very easy and natural as most is stored coiled up. I
> thought at one time the this area was also the best area to purge air
> but found later that this is incorrect. The best place to purge air is
> just before it hits the water in the sump. If you do a direction
> change into a tee with the water flowing through the tee and the tee
> part open to the air to allow the pressure to bleed off then it can't
> build up pressure to do the burp/fart thing.
>
> FWIW
> Raymond

[Raymond]

"Dragon Slayer" > wrote in message >...
> I cured the noise and surge of my durso standpipes on my 180 by starting the
> hole with a #60 drill bit and working my way up (down in # but up in size)
> until I got no surge and no noise. been working without a hitch for almost
> 3 months now.
>
> kc

That is the way most people go about it and hey if it works I'm not
knocking it. It just seemed like it would be unreliable. I mean if you
get some salt build up will it start surging or let the water level
rise to high and cause a problem? I just liked the idea of going with
a large enough vent that it had some margin for error....

[[email protected]]

I made myself some of these standpipes but had to remove them due to
restricted flow. I cut two big square holes in each for intake but it was
not enough. Would a second overflow cure this? I'm using 1 inch pipe for
drains and 1-1/4" for standpipes. Tank is 120gal. return pump is a velocity
T3.
"Raymond" > wrote in message
om...
> "Dragon Slayer" > wrote in message
>...
> > I cured the noise and surge of my durso standpipes on my 180 by starting
the
> > hole with a #60 drill bit and working my way up (down in # but up in
size)
> > until I got no surge and no noise. been working without a hitch for
almost
> > 3 months now.
> >
> > kc
>
> That is the way most people go about it and hey if it works I'm not
> knocking it. It just seemed like it would be unreliable. I mean if you
> get some salt build up will it start surging or let the water level
> rise to high and cause a problem? I just liked the idea of going with
> a large enough vent that it had some margin for error....

[Kevin M]

" > wrote in message
...
| I made myself some of these standpipes but had to remove them due to
| restricted flow. I cut two big square holes in each for intake but it was
| not enough. Would a second overflow cure this? I'm using 1 inch pipe for
| drains and 1-1/4" for standpipes. Tank is 120gal. return pump is a
velocity
| T3.


You made Dursos, or Stockmans? Stockman is the compact model with no tee or
elbow.
It's physically impossible for a 1.25" Durso to restrict the flow to a 1"
bulkhead, unless the standpipe itself is partially plugged in some way. A
Stockman, however, could possibly cause some restriction.
A second overflow is always good (in my best James Hetfield voice with
horizontal hand slashing.....Redundancy GOOOOD), and would solve your
problem.

Kev

[[email protected]]

These were Stockman standpipes. I have done some further investigating and
have found my overflow to be rated at 600GPH. Its 8" wide. Will a larger box
help? Does anyone make an overflow with 3 drains?
"Kevin M" > wrote in message
...
> " > wrote in message
> ...
> | I made myself some of these standpipes but had to remove them due to
> | restricted flow. I cut two big square holes in each for intake but it
was
> | not enough. Would a second overflow cure this? I'm using 1 inch pipe for
> | drains and 1-1/4" for standpipes. Tank is 120gal. return pump is a
> velocity
> | T3.
>
>
> You made Dursos, or Stockmans? Stockman is the compact model with no tee
or
> elbow.
> It's physically impossible for a 1.25" Durso to restrict the flow to a 1"
> bulkhead, unless the standpipe itself is partially plugged in some way. A
> Stockman, however, could possibly cause some restriction.
> A second overflow is always good (in my best James Hetfield voice with
> horizontal hand slashing.....Redundancy GOOOOD), and would solve your
> problem.
>
> Kev
>
>

[Marc Levenson]

The draining flow is not really based on the size of the box as much as it is
the bulkhead opening itself.

Marc


" wrote:

> These were Stockman standpipes. I have done some further investigating and
> have found my overflow to be rated at 600GPH. Its 8" wide. Will a larger box
> help? Does anyone make an overflow with 3 drains?
>
>

--
Personal Page: http://www.sparklingfloorservice.com/oanda/index.html
Business Page: http://www.sparklingfloorservice.com
Marine Hobbyist: http://www.melevsreef.com

[Dragon Slayer]

while I agree the bulkhead is a huge determining factor, the size of the box
is as well.

kc

"Marc Levenson" > wrote in message
...
> The draining flow is not really based on the size of the box as much as it
is
> the bulkhead opening itself.
>
> Marc
>
>
> " wrote:
>
> > These were Stockman standpipes. I have done some further investigating
and
> > have found my overflow to be rated at 600GPH. Its 8" wide. Will a larger
box
> > help? Does anyone make an overflow with 3 drains?
> >
> >
>
> --
> Personal Page: http://www.sparklingfloorservice.com/oanda/index.html
> Business Page: http://www.sparklingfloorservice.com
> Marine Hobbyist: http://www.melevsreef.com
>
>

[Marc Levenson]

Because the box will apply 'x' amount of water pressure forcing the water out,
right?

Marc


Dragon Slayer wrote:

> while I agree the bulkhead is a huge determining factor, the size of the box
> is as well.
>
> kc
>

--
Personal Page: http://www.sparklingfloorservice.com/oanda/index.html
Business Page: http://www.sparklingfloorservice.com
Marine Hobbyist: http://www.melevsreef.com

[Dragon Slayer]

it has a lot to do with the surface area of the box allowing X amount of
flow in a gravity feed situation. if the box is not large enough the
overflow will suck all the water out of the surface skimmer box and loose
siphon.

hth
kc



"Marc Levenson" > wrote in message
...
> Because the box will apply 'x' amount of water pressure forcing the water
out,
> right?
>
> Marc
>
>
> Dragon Slayer wrote:
>
> > while I agree the bulkhead is a huge determining factor, the size of the
box
> > is as well.
> >
> > kc
> >
>
> --
> Personal Page: http://www.sparklingfloorservice.com/oanda/index.html
> Business Page: http://www.sparklingfloorservice.com
> Marine Hobbyist: http://www.melevsreef.com
>
>

[Raymond]

"Dragon Slayer" > wrote in message >...
> it has a lot to do with the surface area of the box allowing X amount of
> flow in a gravity feed situation. if the box is not large enough the
> overflow will suck all the water out of the surface skimmer box and loose
> siphon.
>
> hth
> kc

This should be incorrect. If this were the case you would loose siphon
every time the power went out. The flow through a siphon feed overflow
should only be restricted by the size of the siphon tube and the size
of the drain pipe on the external box. If the interior box were to
small then the water level in the tank would rise until it would flow
over the top of the box. Then the limiting factor would either be the
size of the siphon tube or the drain in the exterior box.

Several posts up the question was in regards to restriction and
stockman or durso stand pipes. The amount of water that can be run
through a given size of bulkhead will very depending on the amount of
water pressure. The flow rates usually quoted for a given size of
fitting assumes no pressure. (gravity feed) A lot of us will have
pressure on the bulk head. To illustrate, a one inch bulkhead may only
allow 600 gph with one inch of water above it. (assuming bulkhead in
the bottom) The same bulkhead may allow 800 gph with six inches of
water above it.

The stand pipes (either type) should not cause a restriction if they
are working properly. Low flow can be caused by too small of a air
vent at the top for either type, blocked intake, a stand pipe of the
same size as the bulkhead, any kind of debris, and I'm sure others
that I'm not thinking of right now. In the case of a stockman you need
to make sure the slip adaptor on the outsize is large enough to allow
unrestricted water into the pipe. In the case of a 1 1/4 stand pipe a
2 inch fitting should be fine. If there is a question in your mind
about it simply remove it and check to see if the flow rate increases.
(assuming you haven't glued it in place, which I would not recommend)

FWIW
Raymond

[Dragon Slayer]

"> This should be incorrect. If this were the case you would loose siphon
> every time the power went out.


it may very well "Should Be Incorrect" but it is not.

if you don't believe it give it a try, if you raise your inner skimmer box
or lower your standpipe in the outer box you will notice the differences.
in a power outage it has nothing at all to do with the size of the box, the
stand pipe in the outer box keeps the U tube from being allowed air to break
the siphon. the inner box will only drain to a level equal to the level of
water in the outer box that is set by the stand pipe, as long as this
doesn't allow either end of the U tube to be uncovered from water the siphon
can not be broken this way, it can't suck air if its under water.


but again like so many things in this 'hobby' YMMV.

kc

[Raymond]

> if you don't believe it give it a try, if you raise your inner skimmer box
> or lower your standpipe in the outer box you will notice the differences.

I have raised my inner box as high as it will go to no ill effect. I
have had water flow as fast as the siphon tube would take with out any
problems.

As long as the bottom of the siphon tube isn't raised above the height
of the stand pipe in the outer box how can it break the siphon
regardless of how much water is going through it? It could create a
vortex and suck a little air into it but it should not cause it to
break siphon. It might on the other hand create significant noise.
Also If your inner box can be raised high enough to allow for a siphon
break then it has a design flaw.

And yes as you said YMMV...
Raymond

[Dragon Slayer]

I think your missing the point here completely.

when I say raise your inner box, its to make it skim the surface rather then
having it so low that the standpipe keeps the water level above the box.
when its set up like this it will not skim the surface and you can push any
amount of water through it that you want, the box is not a limiting factor
like that, only the water level in the tank.

but when you install the box as it is designed where it causes the water
level inside the inner box to be 1-2 inches below tank water level (so it
draws water in from the surface of the tank) then you run into the problems.
(keep in mind standpipe length has a relationship with the inner box)

now with the stand pipe and inner box setup so you have the 1+ inch lower
water level in the inner box then the tank, put in 2 U-tubes for flow, then
start to crank up the gph, the smaller the box the less gph it will allow
though before the flow through the U-tubes sucks the box dry and you loose
siphon. makes a nice flushing sound then you will hear a nice splashing
sound of the tank overflowing in the floor.

this is what I was talking about with Marc, the inner box size has to be
proportional to the flow through it. you can't push 2000 gph down a
overflow box that is only 3x6 inches. if you could all the larger tanks
would have small overflows built in and you wouldnt be wasting all that tank
space.

kc

[Raymond]

> I think your missing the point here completely.

I did miss that someone had there inner box so low that it wasn't
skimming the surface. I mean that is the whole point....

> but when you install the box as it is designed where it causes the water
> level inside the inner box to be 1-2 inches below tank water level (so it
> draws water in from the surface of the tank) then you run into the problems.
> (keep in mind standpipe length has a relationship with the inner box)

The way it should be....

> now with the stand pipe and inner box setup so you have the 1+ inch lower
> water level in the inner box then the tank, put in 2 U-tubes for flow, then
> start to crank up the gph, the smaller the box the less gph it will allow
> though before the flow through the U-tubes sucks the box dry and you loose
> siphon. makes a nice flushing sound then you will hear a nice splashing
> sound of the tank overflowing in the floor.

OK this is where you lose me. If I were to do this the water level in
the tank would rise until the water poured over the top of the teeth.
(by passing the teeth) At no time would the inner box be sucked dry.
If I were to keep raising the gph until something broke it would be
that the siphon tubes wouldn't keep up.

> this is what I was talking about with Marc, the inner box size has to be
> proportional to the flow through it. you can't push 2000 gph down a
> overflow box that is only 3x6 inches. if you could all the larger tanks
> would have small overflows built in and you wouldn't be wasting all that tank
> space.

Sure you can. A 3X6 inch hole will allow far more than 2000 gph
through it. The reason tank manufacturers put in larger boxes is to
not defeat the purpose of the teeth in the box. Although there is
debate on this, the reason given is that the teeth prevent fish etc.
from getting into the over flow and it protects them from being sucked
tight to the teeth. If the water flow through the teeth gets to high
then this is defeated. The only way to fix it is to increase the size
of the box. This reduces the amount of water through each tooth even
though the total flow is the same.

Do you have a stockman or durso stand pipe in your overflow?
The only thing I can figure is that you have an overflow that develops
a siphon in the outside box going through the stand pipe and is
siphoning the water level below what would normally be.

In any case I don't mean to argue with you it's just that this doesn't
make any sense.

FWIW
Raymond