Oranda Problem

[Jim Wilkerson]

My oranda started acting a bit listless a little over a week ago. He
would just sit in the plants, didnt appear to be having any terrible
breathing probs or such. He would come right out at feeding time
though and be pretty much normally active until real late in the
evening to morning.

After about 2 days of this, I noticed what appears to be maybe a
possible inflamation in his gills, although there does not appear to
be any external swelling. No stuck out scales. A slight spot of
cloudy in his eyes (clear eyes=no probs usually for him).

I begag a treatment of Maracyn 2, and added Copper Safe as well. I
have just finished the first Maracyn 2 cycle, and he does appear to be
more active now although in the afternoon he is sitting in the plants
again. I am certain he will come out at feeeding time again.

Diet is peas 1 to 2 times a week, brine shrimp 2 to 3 times a week,
tubifex worms 1 - 2 times a week, and the standard goldfish food the
rest of the time.

Water chem is PH=7.0, Nitrates= about 40 (although I sometimes wonder
about these tests...) 55Gal tank, 20 gal water change on 9/4/05. I
have added salt to the water as I always have for years, the standard
1 tbls per 5 gal.

On 8/4/05 I added a CO2 bottle which consists of a 2 liter sode bottle
with the sugar and yeast mix to produce the CO2 through an airstone.
That get serviced about every 2 to 3 weeks.

Question now is, should I go thru another Maracyn cycle, water change,
salt bath (not sure exaclty what that is, but I saw it referenced), or
somethig else?

Thanks,

Jim

--

[Jim Wilkerson]

Is there anyone out here? Can someone please either help or at least
direct me to someone who will respond?

Desperate,

Jim

On Sun, 2 Oct 2005 21:44:41 UTC, "Jim Wilkerson"
> wrote:

> My oranda started acting a bit listless a little over a week ago. He
> would just sit in the plants, didnt appear to be having any terrible
> breathing probs or such. He would come right out at feeding time
> though and be pretty much normally active until real late in the
> evening to morning.
>
> After about 2 days of this, I noticed what appears to be maybe a
> possible inflamation in his gills, although there does not appear to
> be any external swelling. No stuck out scales. A slight spot of
> cloudy in his eyes (clear eyes=no probs usually for him).
>
> I begag a treatment of Maracyn 2, and added Copper Safe as well. I
> have just finished the first Maracyn 2 cycle, and he does appear to be
> more active now although in the afternoon he is sitting in the plants
> again. I am certain he will come out at feeeding time again.
>
> Diet is peas 1 to 2 times a week, brine shrimp 2 to 3 times a week,
> tubifex worms 1 - 2 times a week, and the standard goldfish food the
> rest of the time.
>
> Water chem is PH=7.0, Nitrates= about 40 (although I sometimes wonder
> about these tests...) 55Gal tank, 20 gal water change on 9/4/05. I
> have added salt to the water as I always have for years, the standard
> 1 tbls per 5 gal.
>
> On 8/4/05 I added a CO2 bottle which consists of a 2 liter sode bottle
> with the sugar and yeast mix to produce the CO2 through an airstone.
> That get serviced about every 2 to 3 weeks.
>
> Question now is, should I go thru another Maracyn cycle, water change,
> salt bath (not sure exaclty what that is, but I saw it referenced), or
> somethig else?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Jim
>


--

[Reel Mckoi]

"Jim Wilkerson" > wrote in message
news:RFFxzJm83E64-pn2-wtGQi04dYvVr@localhost...
> Is there anyone out here? Can someone please either help or at least
> direct me to someone who will respond?
============
Jim, sometimes there is no way to help a person with their fish. What you
describe can be so many things it's unreal. I've seen listlessness from
everything from parasites to high nitrates, from paint fumes in the air to
an exterminator's visit. How can anyone possibly know? Have you checked
www.koivet.com? I believe Ingrid/Solo also runs a site describing disease
and health issues with goldfish. I wish I could be of more help but .......
--
McKoi.... frugal ponding since 1995...
My Pond Page http://tinyurl.com/cuq5b
~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>

[NanK]

Jim Wilkerson wrote:
> Is there anyone out here? Can someone please either help or at least
> direct me to someone who will respond?

How old is your oranda and how large?

If it's a much older fish, it may be nearing its life cycle.

If this is not the case, recommend you change almost all the water in
your tank (80%) and replace it with clean, temp adjusted, dechlored
water with nothing else in it and wait a few hours to see if there is
any change.

Also, take apart your filter if you haven't done it for a while, and
change some of the media (carbon, sponge). Sometimes, you may have a
"sick filter" and this will remedy the situation rapidly.

If your fish is better, you know it's a water quality problem. Try NOT
to add any more meds. If you MUST medicate, do it in a smaller tank (10
gallon) it saves on $$ and you can watch your fish more easily, but
remember to keep temp and water very clean.

Try this website:
http://www.mu.edu/~buxtoni/puregold/disease/disease.htm

There is a product called PURIGEN (now available at PetSmart) that is
expensive, but removes impurities from the water and can be recharged.

Good luck. Let us know how it goes.

n

[Jim Wilkerson]

Thank you for your response.

I got my oranda June of 2004, so I would guess he is a little over a
year old.

What I have done since my initial post based upon yours and the other
responses, as well as some web reading:

10/2/05
20 Gal water change, and I always vac the gravel a bit each time.
Also, I initially added 1 tbls of salt per 5 gal of water (as the side
of the package suggest) when the tank was new, and I replace the salt
per gals ratio whenever I change out water (again I have read this
since salt stays suspended for the most part I figure this is
correct). So, 20 gal out, and I add 1 tbls per 5 back. If this is
wrong, let me know, but fish and plants seem to be OK with it.

10/4/05
Another 20 gal water change, again replacing salt and gravel vac.

10/5/05
Water chemistry: PH=7.2, Ammonia=0, Nitrites=0, Nitrates=20.
Before the water changes, PH=7.0, Ammonia and Nitrites=0, Nitrates
40+.

Additionally, before today, the oranda would be sitting in the plants
in the morning, and usually there in the afternoon, but then start to
swim and behave normally during feeding time and on into the night.
After the first water change, he would also be active in the morn, but
sitting in the plants by the time I would come home in the afternoon.
Today, he seems pretty much normal active as he was not sitting in the
plants when I got home. Looking in at his gills, I can still see some
white looking stuff, but maybe not as much as it was.

What I plan to do tomorrow:

Another 20 gal water change. I plan to service my Fluval 304. Now, I
have 3 chambers with ceramic media, and 3 with carbon. I was planning
to change at least 1 of the carbon chambers to ceramic media. I have
read that some us all ceramic/rock media and no carbon. Thoughts?
Also, If I change any of the 4 foam strips, should I change 1, 2, 3,
or all 4? I realize that all 4 at once would get ride of all the
bacteria that is normally in the foam, but would what was in the 3
ceramic chambers help compensate? What about this Stresszyme stuff? I
have used that in the past with no apparent ill results. Also, I
always wash the inside filter medai with tank water, not tap. Learned
that lesson early on.

Thanks so much again for your responses.

Jim

On Wed, 5 Oct 2005 01:16:12 UTC, NanK > wrote:

> Jim Wilkerson wrote:
> > Is there anyone out here? Can someone please either help or at least
> > direct me to someone who will respond?
>
> How old is your oranda and how large?
>
> If it's a much older fish, it may be nearing its life cycle.
>
> If this is not the case, recommend you change almost all the water in
> your tank (80%) and replace it with clean, temp adjusted, dechlored
> water with nothing else in it and wait a few hours to see if there is
> any change.
>
> Also, take apart your filter if you haven't done it for a while, and
> change some of the media (carbon, sponge). Sometimes, you may have a
> "sick filter" and this will remedy the situation rapidly.
>
> If your fish is better, you know it's a water quality problem. Try NOT
> to add any more meds. If you MUST medicate, do it in a smaller tank (10
> gallon) it saves on $$ and you can watch your fish more easily, but
> remember to keep temp and water very clean.
>
> Try this website:
> http://www.mu.edu/~buxtoni/puregold/disease/disease.htm
>
> There is a product called PURIGEN (now available at PetSmart) that is
> expensive, but removes impurities from the water and can be recharged.
>
> Good luck. Let us know how it goes.
>
> n
>
>


--

[Jim Wilkerson]

Thanks for your response. I did a bit more research on the web site
that you sugessted and posted all my results in the post below.

Thanks again.


On Wed, 5 Oct 2005 00:13:13 UTC, "Reel Mckoi" > wrote:

>
> "Jim Wilkerson" > wrote in message
> news:RFFxzJm83E64-pn2-wtGQi04dYvVr@localhost...
> > Is there anyone out here? Can someone please either help or at least
> > direct me to someone who will respond?
> ============
> Jim, sometimes there is no way to help a person with their fish. What you
> describe can be so many things it's unreal. I've seen listlessness from
> everything from parasites to high nitrates, from paint fumes in the air to
> an exterminator's visit. How can anyone possibly know? Have you checked
> www.koivet.com? I believe Ingrid/Solo also runs a site describing disease
> and health issues with goldfish. I wish I could be of more help but .......


--

[Reel Mckoi]

"Jim Wilkerson" > wrote in message
news:RFFxzJm83E64-pn2-l0XzxJP9vb8l@localhost...
> Thank you for your response.
>
> I got my oranda June of 2004, so I would guess he is a little over a
> year old.
>
> What I have done since my initial post based upon yours and the other
> responses, as well as some web reading:
>
> 10/2/05
> 20 Gal water change, and I always vac the gravel a bit each time.
> Also, I initially added 1 tbls of salt per 5 gal of water (as the side
> of the package suggest) when the tank was new, and I replace the salt
> per gals ratio whenever I change out water (again I have read this
> since salt stays suspended for the most part I figure this is
> correct). So, 20 gal out, and I add 1 tbls per 5 back. If this is
> wrong, let me know, but fish and plants seem to be OK with it.

## I'm one of those who don't use salt in my tanks or ponds. Salt can
buildup in the water as there is no way you can know exactly how much water
evaporated, how much salt was utalized by the fish in some way,.. etc.
After time the water can become almost brackish. I've known it to happen.

> 10/4/05
> Another 20 gal water change, again replacing salt and gravel vac.

## I always vacuumed ALL the gravel on the tank bottom with each water
change and never suffered an ammonia spike.

> 10/5/05
> Water chemistry: PH=7.2, Ammonia=0, Nitrites=0, Nitrates=20.
> Before the water changes, PH=7.0, Ammonia and Nitrites=0, Nitrates
> 40+.

## For goldfish (and koi) I would get the PH up to about 7.5 to 7.8. I use
limestone rock but crushed shell or dolomite gravel (pet store) or even
chicken grit will work. Tie it in a pantyhose toe and set it in the
aquarium or filter somewhere.

> Additionally, before today, the oranda would be sitting in the plants
> in the morning, and usually there in the afternoon, but then start to
> swim and behave normally during feeding time and on into the night.
> After the first water change, he would also be active in the morn, but
> sitting in the plants by the time I would come home in the afternoon.
> Today, he seems pretty much normal active as he was not sitting in the
> plants when I got home. Looking in at his gills, I can still see some
> white looking stuff, but maybe not as much as it was.

## White looking "stuff?" Fungus? Parasites? Also, don't leave the light
on 24/7. That's not good for fish.

> What I plan to do tomorrow:

> Another 20 gal water change. I plan to service my Fluval 304. Now, I
> have 3 chambers with ceramic media, and 3 with carbon. I was planning
> to change at least 1 of the carbon chambers to ceramic media. I have
> read that some us all ceramic/rock media and no carbon. Thoughts?

## I also had a Fluval and used sponges in 2 chambers and ceramic noodles
in one chamber. It kept the water crystal clear.

> Also, If I change any of the 4 foam strips, should I change 1, 2, 3,
> or all 4?

## Strips? My Fluval had 3 basketlike things inside, stacked together. I
would clean all 3 at a time - and never had an ammonia spike. There are
loads of nitrifying bacteria on the tank walls, gravel and plants. Don't
scrub the back wall clean.

I realize that all 4 at once would get ride of all the
> bacteria that is normally in the foam, but would what was in the 3
> ceramic chambers help compensate? What about this Stresszyme stuff?

## Never used it. All I ever used in my tanks was dechlor. In the ponds I
use a ulcer preventive called Lymno-Zyme or Koi-Zyme.

I
> have used that in the past with no apparent ill results. Also, I
> always wash the inside filter medai with tank water, not tap. Learned
> that lesson early on.

## Either way worked for me. If the tank has a heavy load of fish then
using tank water would be the way to go.

> Thanks so much again for your responses.
>
> Jim

## Keep us posted on how this all turns out. :-)
--
McKoi.... frugal ponding since 1995...
My Pond Page http://tinyurl.com/cuq5b
~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>

[Jim Wilkerson]

Today, I changed out approx 21 gals of water in the tank. Serviced
the Fluval 304 by washing the existing foam and 3 compartments of
ceramic media in tank water. Took out the 3 compartments of carbon,
converted 1 to ceramic media (this make the top 2 baskets all ceramic
media) and the bottom 2, I cut pieces of the plastic foam and put in
there.

The second day now, my oranda seems to be swimming around normally.
No sitting in the plants again today. His gills are also looking
better.

I have read the the carbon can actually take out nutrients for both
the fish and the plants, so hopefully this will be good in the long
run.

I'll do water chemistry tomorrow and see how it looks.

Finally, any thoughts on stuff such as CopperSafe, or any of the
things like AmQuel Plus or the TetraAqua Water Balance stuff? Or does
the old, don't use it if you don't really need it the best rule of
thumb?

Thanks again.

Jim


On Thu, 6 Oct 2005 00:06:16 UTC, "Jim Wilkerson"
> wrote:

> Thank you for your response.
>
> I got my oranda June of 2004, so I would guess he is a little over a
> year old.
>
> What I have done since my initial post based upon yours and the other
> responses, as well as some web reading:
>
> 10/2/05
> 20 Gal water change, and I always vac the gravel a bit each time.
> Also, I initially added 1 tbls of salt per 5 gal of water (as the side
> of the package suggest) when the tank was new, and I replace the salt
> per gals ratio whenever I change out water (again I have read this
> since salt stays suspended for the most part I figure this is
> correct). So, 20 gal out, and I add 1 tbls per 5 back. If this is
> wrong, let me know, but fish and plants seem to be OK with it.
>
> 10/4/05
> Another 20 gal water change, again replacing salt and gravel vac.
>
> 10/5/05
> Water chemistry: PH=7.2, Ammonia=0, Nitrites=0, Nitrates=20.
> Before the water changes, PH=7.0, Ammonia and Nitrites=0, Nitrates
> 40+.
>
> Additionally, before today, the oranda would be sitting in the plants
> in the morning, and usually there in the afternoon, but then start to
> swim and behave normally during feeding time and on into the night.
> After the first water change, he would also be active in the morn, but
> sitting in the plants by the time I would come home in the afternoon.
> Today, he seems pretty much normal active as he was not sitting in the
> plants when I got home. Looking in at his gills, I can still see some
> white looking stuff, but maybe not as much as it was.
>
> What I plan to do tomorrow:
>
> Another 20 gal water change. I plan to service my Fluval 304. Now, I
> have 3 chambers with ceramic media, and 3 with carbon. I was planning
> to change at least 1 of the carbon chambers to ceramic media. I have
> read that some us all ceramic/rock media and no carbon. Thoughts?
> Also, If I change any of the 4 foam strips, should I change 1, 2, 3,
> or all 4? I realize that all 4 at once would get ride of all the
> bacteria that is normally in the foam, but would what was in the 3
> ceramic chambers help compensate? What about this Stresszyme stuff? I
> have used that in the past with no apparent ill results. Also, I
> always wash the inside filter medai with tank water, not tap. Learned
> that lesson early on.
>
> Thanks so much again for your responses.
>
> Jim
>
> On Wed, 5 Oct 2005 01:16:12 UTC, NanK > wrote:
>
> > Jim Wilkerson wrote:
> > > Is there anyone out here? Can someone please either help or at least
> > > direct me to someone who will respond?
> >
> > How old is your oranda and how large?
> >
> > If it's a much older fish, it may be nearing its life cycle.
> >
> > If this is not the case, recommend you change almost all the water in
> > your tank (80%) and replace it with clean, temp adjusted, dechlored
> > water with nothing else in it and wait a few hours to see if there is
> > any change.
> >
> > Also, take apart your filter if you haven't done it for a while, and
> > change some of the media (carbon, sponge). Sometimes, you may have a
> > "sick filter" and this will remedy the situation rapidly.
> >
> > If your fish is better, you know it's a water quality problem. Try NOT
> > to add any more meds. If you MUST medicate, do it in a smaller tank (10
> > gallon) it saves on $$ and you can watch your fish more easily, but
> > remember to keep temp and water very clean.
> >
> > Try this website:
> > http://www.mu.edu/~buxtoni/puregold/disease/disease.htm
> >
> > There is a product called PURIGEN (now available at PetSmart) that is
> > expensive, but removes impurities from the water and can be recharged.
> >
> > Good luck. Let us know how it goes.
> >
> > n
> >
> >
>
>


--

[Reel Mckoi]

"Jim Wilkerson" > wrote in message
news:RFFxzJm83E64-pn2-sTKCiLUW0Gep@localhost...
>
> Finally, any thoughts on stuff such as CopperSafe, or any of the
> things like AmQuel Plus or the TetraAqua Water Balance stuff?

## Most people who keep fish for years don't waste money on these products.
Just use a dechlorinator and a little salt if you feel it helps. Why
medicate when you don't know exactly what the problem was, or is?

Or does
> the old, don't use it if you don't really need it the best rule of
> thumb?

## That's what I've done by for years and years now. The only fish I
medicate "just in case" are new fish in Quarantine. Every new fish gets
quarantined for 21 days. Better safe than sorry,... again. After a few
very bad experiences all get treated with Quick-Cure, then Clout (in no
particular order). I use Lymno-Zyme in all ponds, tanks and pools to
prevent bacterial ulcers. It's not a chemical but a bacteria that
out-competes the bad bacteria that cause the ulcers.

--
McKoi.... frugal ponding since 1995...
My Pond Page http://tinyurl.com/cuq5b
~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>

[NanK]

I'm a little worried about the white stuff you see in the gills. It
could just be that the fish is finally healing from poor water
conditions. It could also be a fungus.

Give your tank a chance to settle down -- each time you remove a great
deal of water, you are causing mini-cycles, which are great for
maintenance, but not so hot if you need to reestablish the bacteria in
your tank, so stop doing water changes every day. Begin to stretch them
out to every three days, then 5, then 7 or so.

If the fish is improving, really improving, hold off on the meds for a
while. If he starts to show more definite signs, go back to the website

http://www.mu.edu/~buxtoni/puregold/home.html

and take your time deciding what to use to medicate. Perhaps a bath
would be better than treating the entire tank. Remember that certain
(not all) meds in your main tank will kill off bacteria colonies. Read
labels before you buy. Get your information on line, then purchase.

Good luck.
n

[[email protected]]

Orandas are a stickler for water quality....after spending money on
many additives it seems the best thing to do is dechlor(Prime) water
changes with a good healthy water filter(I use two types-under gravel
and Emperor 280),,,good aeration(use two types).....and salt when
changing gravel(I understand that salt works when it is going up and
down in concentration fastly...not a constant amount as many things
become resistant to it)....also my pond Orandas handle more extremes
than the aquarium Orandas....I use shelled frozen peas, frozen brine
shrimp and ProGold sinking food and Wardley's sinking shrimp pellets at
various times. Water is about 80 degrees in the aquarium and 65 degrees
in the pond-
Larry
Carmichael/Sacramento

[Navy Diver]

you have a beautiful web site and gorgeous tanks and ponds. Your fish
look really healthy :)