Odd neon tetra death?

[FishNoob]

Checked the tank this morning to find only four neon tetras instead
of the five we put in yesterday. Eventually found the missing tetra,
stuck to the side of the filter - just to the plastic housing.

When I took the tetra out, it looked as though something had taken a
bite out of its chest/stomach area. What might have caused this? And
is there a reason why the fish was stuck to the filter housing?

The other fish all look fine and are behaving normally. However the
nitrite level was very high this morning (ammonia was zero). I've now
done a water-change of about 25%.

--
FishNoob

[Guido]

FishNoob wrote:
> Checked the tank this morning to find only four neon tetras instead
> of the five we put in yesterday. Eventually found the missing tetra,
> stuck to the side of the filter - just to the plastic housing.
>
> When I took the tetra out, it looked as though something had taken a
> bite out of its chest/stomach area. What might have caused this? And
> is there a reason why the fish was stuck to the filter housing?
>
> The other fish all look fine and are behaving normally. However the
> nitrite level was very high this morning (ammonia was zero). I've now
> done a water-change of about 25%.
>
When I first started up my tank I lost a number of tetras this way. It
would seem for one reason or another they became to weak to swim and
were just sucked into the filter. In my case fin rot was also a
culprit. I think it was because of high ammonia in my tank and I was
trying to control the pH with chemicals (bad idea, it turns out!).

The "bite" you saw was likely where it was stuck to the filter's intake...

[Gill Passman]

FishNoob wrote:
> Checked the tank this morning to find only four neon tetras instead
> of the five we put in yesterday. Eventually found the missing tetra,
> stuck to the side of the filter - just to the plastic housing.
>
> When I took the tetra out, it looked as though something had taken a
> bite out of its chest/stomach area. What might have caused this? And
> is there a reason why the fish was stuck to the filter housing?
>
> The other fish all look fine and are behaving normally. However the
> nitrite level was very high this morning (ammonia was zero). I've now
> done a water-change of about 25%.
>

I would guess it was the nitrites so the water change is the best way to
go.

Gill

[spiral_72]

It's probably not uncommon to lose one in five neons when you introduce
them. The little guy might have died from shock or been very ill when
you bought him. He may have been terrorized by the other fish.

Your filter, filters water..... sucks stuff up and filters it out. Most
of the time a fish of descent size can easily outswim the filter's
current. What I mean is, the fish was probably dead or close to it when
the filter picked him up............ As for the bite, um, well, fish
eat other fish. If a fish lays in the bottom of the tank long enough,
it's likely he'll become dinner.

Find out when your local fish store, stocks their tanks. Wait several
days before you buy this new stock. It'll give the weak ones a chance
to ummmmm, croak and give you a lower mortality rate.

My Aquaria info & pics at:
http://www.geocities.com/spiral_72/Spirals_page.html

[FishNoob]

In article >,
says...
> I would guess it was the nitrites so the water change is the best way to
> go.

How often should/can I change the water? I changed about 25% this
morning - about four hours ago - and added some Cycle. The nitrite
level is better, but still too high - should I do another 25% water-
change in a few hours?

Lost another neon tetra too :-(

--
FishNoob

[Gill Passman]

FishNoob wrote:
> In article >,
> says...
>
>>I would guess it was the nitrites so the water change is the best way to
>>go.
>
>
> How often should/can I change the water? I changed about 25% this
> morning - about four hours ago - and added some Cycle. The nitrite
> level is better, but still too high - should I do another 25% water-
> change in a few hours?
>
> Lost another neon tetra too :-(
>
I would do it daily and cut down on the amount of food that you are
giving the fish until it comes under control. Although it is not good to
have nitrites all but your latest fish will have become used to it as it
increased gradually. Sorry about the neon :-( - I find that they are
sensitive to water conditions - also it could just be down to a bad
batch from the LFS....

Gill

[Elaine T]

FishNoob wrote:
> Checked the tank this morning to find only four neon tetras instead
> of the five we put in yesterday. Eventually found the missing tetra,
> stuck to the side of the filter - just to the plastic housing.
>
> When I took the tetra out, it looked as though something had taken a
> bite out of its chest/stomach area. What might have caused this? And
> is there a reason why the fish was stuck to the filter housing?
>
> The other fish all look fine and are behaving normally. However the
> nitrite level was very high this morning (ammonia was zero). I've now
> done a water-change of about 25%.
>
You added small, delicate fish during a cycle? Sorry, but of course
they're dying. Change enough water to keep nitrites below 2 ppm and add
1 tsp salt/5 gallons of water to help reverse the nitrite toxicity.
When you change water, add salt at the same rate to the replacement
water only. Once the nitrites are gone, you can stop adding the salt
and it will gradually dilute away.

--
Elaine T __
http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><
rec.aquaria.* FAQ http://faq.thekrib.com

[Gill Passman]

Elaine T wrote:
> FishNoob wrote:
>
>> Checked the tank this morning to find only four neon tetras instead of
>> the five we put in yesterday. Eventually found the missing tetra,
>> stuck to the side of the filter - just to the plastic housing.
>>
>> When I took the tetra out, it looked as though something had taken a
>> bite out of its chest/stomach area. What might have caused this? And
>> is there a reason why the fish was stuck to the filter housing?
>>
>> The other fish all look fine and are behaving normally. However the
>> nitrite level was very high this morning (ammonia was zero). I've now
>> done a water-change of about 25%.
>>
> You added small, delicate fish during a cycle? Sorry, but of course
> they're dying. Change enough water to keep nitrites below 2 ppm and add
> 1 tsp salt/5 gallons of water to help reverse the nitrite toxicity. When
> you change water, add salt at the same rate to the replacement water
> only. Once the nitrites are gone, you can stop adding the salt and it
> will gradually dilute away.
>
Just one more thing I would suggest when you are thinking of buying new
fish to add to the tank do a water test. If there are any indications of
problems then don't buy the fish until everything is registering as
normal (ie. zero nitrites/ammonia) and then wait at least a
week....spend the time researching the fish that you want to add,
checking out what is available etc. All adds to the fun of fishkeeping
IMO

Good luck with getting the nitrites down hopefully before any more losses.

Gill

[FishNoob]

In article >,
says...
> Just one more thing I would suggest when you are thinking of buying new
> fish to add to the tank do a water test. If there are any indications of
> problems then don't buy the fish until everything is registering as
> normal (ie. zero nitrites/ammonia) and then wait at least a
> week....

In my defence...ammonia and nitrite were undetectable for a week
before I put in the tetras. That doesn't rescue them of course :-(

We lost one more neon tetra last night, and found a danio gone this
morning (though the danio looked like it had been bitten - not a
chunk missing, but there were small blood-like spots that looked like
it had been pierced several times). I did a 10% water change last
night at about 10pm, and another this morning. The nitrite is now
just under 0.3, and I'll be watching it closely. I did add salt too,
and haven't fed the fish at all since yesterday morning.

The ph has dropped slightly; it had risen to nearly 7, is now between
6 and 6.5 - presumably due to the water-changes, though iirc nitrite
is more toxic at higher ph, so perhaps that's a good thing.

--
FishNoob

[Gill Passman]

FishNoob wrote:
> In article >,
> says...
>
>>Just one more thing I would suggest when you are thinking of buying new
>>fish to add to the tank do a water test. If there are any indications of
>>problems then don't buy the fish until everything is registering as
>>normal (ie. zero nitrites/ammonia) and then wait at least a
>>week....
>
>
> In my defence...ammonia and nitrite were undetectable for a week
> before I put in the tetras. That doesn't rescue them of course :-(
>
> We lost one more neon tetra last night, and found a danio gone this
> morning (though the danio looked like it had been bitten - not a
> chunk missing, but there were small blood-like spots that looked like
> it had been pierced several times). I did a 10% water change last
> night at about 10pm, and another this morning. The nitrite is now
> just under 0.3, and I'll be watching it closely. I did add salt too,
> and haven't fed the fish at all since yesterday morning.
>
> The ph has dropped slightly; it had risen to nearly 7, is now between
> 6 and 6.5 - presumably due to the water-changes, though iirc nitrite
> is more toxic at higher ph, so perhaps that's a good thing.
>


Remind me...what else have you got in the tank?

Cheers
Gill

[FishNoob]

In article >,
says...
> Remind me...what else have you got in the tank?

I'm almost afraid to say, because I *know* it's already overstocked.
My excuse is that A Certain Parent and A Certain Child went to the
pet-shop on Sunday with instructions to get two mollies (colour of
their choosing) and told we'd get neons sometime too. And they either
didn't listen, or didn't obey. Huh.

Okay, so here's what I've got:
- 5 danios (2 zebra, 1 leopard)
- 2 neon tetras
- 5 mollies

Actually, it might be worse than that. Looking at websites last
night, I suspect that what they were sold on Sunday wasn't two orange
mollies, but two sailfin mollies.

Oh yeah, and we've got at least three molly fry.

Please don't beat up on me.

I see another tank in my near future. I might be able to borrow one
from a friend, but it won't have the light and heater - might have a
filter though. S'pose I'll be ebaying in that case...I can buy stuff
like heaters there, but there haven't been any tanks that I'd have
access to in months (they're all pick-up only).

The good news is this: we've not lost any fish in over 24 hours, all
are behaving normally and look well. Ammonia is 0 and nitrite is less
than 0.1 - I guess all those water-changes finally did the trick. And
I don't think I'll allow other family members loose in the pet shop
without my supervision again...

--
FishNoob

[Gill Passman]

FishNoob wrote:
> In article >,
> says...
>
>>Remind me...what else have you got in the tank?
>
>
> I'm almost afraid to say, because I *know* it's already overstocked.
> My excuse is that A Certain Parent and A Certain Child went to the
> pet-shop on Sunday with instructions to get two mollies (colour of
> their choosing) and told we'd get neons sometime too. And they either
> didn't listen, or didn't obey. Huh.
>
> Okay, so here's what I've got:
> - 5 danios (2 zebra, 1 leopard)
> - 2 neon tetras
> - 5 mollies
>
> Actually, it might be worse than that. Looking at websites last
> night, I suspect that what they were sold on Sunday wasn't two orange
> mollies, but two sailfin mollies.
>
> Oh yeah, and we've got at least three molly fry.
>
> Please don't beat up on me.
>
> I see another tank in my near future. I might be able to borrow one
> from a friend, but it won't have the light and heater - might have a
> filter though. S'pose I'll be ebaying in that case...I can buy stuff
> like heaters there, but there haven't been any tanks that I'd have
> access to in months (they're all pick-up only).
>
> The good news is this: we've not lost any fish in over 24 hours, all
> are behaving normally and look well. Ammonia is 0 and nitrite is less
> than 0.1 - I guess all those water-changes finally did the trick. And
> I don't think I'll allow other family members loose in the pet shop
> without my supervision again...
>

I'm guessing the 5 Mollies are the two purchased plus the three fry....

I seem to remember this is a Rena 15 (UK) gall - is that right? If so it
is probably at it's stocking limit right now. My Rena 15gall was the
first tank that we bought - a present for one of my sons. It started off
with 2 Pearl Gouramis, 3 Mollies, 3 Rasboras, 3 Glowlight Tetras and
either a betta or a ram....quickly got upgraded to a 30gall once we
realised it was overstocked.

For it's current incarnation, I switched out the Rena filter and
replaced it with a Fluval 2 plus - I'm not sure whether the filter
supplied with it was up to the job. It now has 2 Dwarf Gouramis, 5 Rummy
Nose Tetras and 1 Dutch Ram....will probably add something else when I
can decide what...

The 15gall got us hooked and we bought a tank for ourselves - this time
a 4 foot (47.5gall). As newbies and without really thinking we put it in
our conservatory.....it's been there a year now and at long last the
algae problem is sorted....my new problem is that the plants have taken
over and I have to do weekly culls. My addiction got worse and we now
have 7 tanks running in the house (including a 2nd 4 footer that
contains Malawi cichlids) - although to be fair one of them just
contains plant cuttings from the Community Tank in the Conservatory
at the moment - I'm trying to become self sufficient in plants....hmmm
but I did see a very beautiful betta earlier in the week.

With respect to "Certain Others" getting over enthusiastic in their fish
purchasing I found dragging them round fish shops at least once a week
cured them and I'm now very much left to my own devices :-) - the only
proviso being that I maintain a school of Neon Tetras somewhere in the
house - another idea for my plant cutting tank...

Sounds like the nitrites are coming down nicely - I'd still keep a daily
check on them until they are zero. Good luck with your hunt for the
second tank - you are potentially an early victim of MTS (multiple tank
syndrome) :-)

Gill

[FishNoob]

In article >,
says...
> I'm guessing the 5 Mollies are the two purchased plus the three fry....

'fraid not. Two black mollies, one silver, two orange/gold/sailfin...

> I seem to remember this is a Rena 15 (UK) gall - is that right? If so it
> is probably at it's stocking limit right now.

You remember right, but given that I'm not counting the fry in the 5
mollies, I know it's overstocked - and will get worse as the fry
grow.

> With respect to "Certain Others" getting over enthusiastic in their fish
> purchasing I found dragging them round fish shops at least once a week
> cured them and I'm now very much left to my own devices :-)

Hah - I don't want to be left to my own devices though - this is
partly the kids' project too, so they've to do some of the work LOL

> Sounds like the nitrites are coming down nicely - I'd still keep a daily
> check on them until they are zero.

Oh, I've been checking at least twice a day - sometimes four times -
in the last few days!

> Good luck with your hunt for the
> second tank - you are potentially an early victim of MTS (multiple tank
> syndrome) :-)

Hmmm...indeed.

Have arranged to borrow a tank from a friend this afternoon, and will
pick up what I need for that - probably a heater at least - on my way
home if I can. Haven't told my partner yet though... LOL

--
FishNoob

[Gill Passman]

FishNoob wrote:
> In article >,
> says...
>
>>I'm guessing the 5 Mollies are the two purchased plus the three fry....
>
>
> 'fraid not. Two black mollies, one silver, two orange/gold/sailfin...
>
>
>>I seem to remember this is a Rena 15 (UK) gall - is that right? If so it
>>is probably at it's stocking limit right now.
>
>
> You remember right, but given that I'm not counting the fry in the 5
> mollies, I know it's overstocked - and will get worse as the fry
> grow.
>
>
>>With respect to "Certain Others" getting over enthusiastic in their fish
>>purchasing I found dragging them round fish shops at least once a week
>>cured them and I'm now very much left to my own devices :-)
>
>
> Hah - I don't want to be left to my own devices though - this is
> partly the kids' project too, so they've to do some of the work LOL
>
>
>>Sounds like the nitrites are coming down nicely - I'd still keep a daily
>>check on them until they are zero.
>
>
> Oh, I've been checking at least twice a day - sometimes four times -
> in the last few days!
>
>
>>Good luck with your hunt for the
>>second tank - you are potentially an early victim of MTS (multiple tank
>>syndrome) :-)
>
>
> Hmmm...indeed.
>
> Have arranged to borrow a tank from a friend this afternoon, and will
> pick up what I need for that - probably a heater at least - on my way
> home if I can. Haven't told my partner yet though... LOL
>

So the next post will be "how to seed a tank" - LOL

[FishNoob]

In article >,
says...
> So the next post will be "how to seed a tank" - LOL

LOL!

The tank from my friend turned out to be totally unsuitable - a lot
smaller than she'd said, and plastic...the cheapo three-fish-at-a-
push kind. *But*...

Took my kids to a weekly activity which takes place in a recreation
centre which has a very large aquarium in the hall, and as we went
in, I noticed one of the women from their group feeding the fish -
turns out she does this for a living! She runs a business which sets
up and maintains aquariums for businesses etc - how cool is that, she
gets to play fish all day and even get paid for it! LOL. Anyway, she
has: a) given me her phone number in case we've any more problems; b)
offered to bring some seeded gravel next week if I need it; and c)
told me she has a couple of second-hand tanks for sale...

Fate or what?! :-D

--
FishNoob

[Gill Passman]

FishNoob wrote:
> In article >,
> says...
>
>>So the next post will be "how to seed a tank" - LOL
>
>
> LOL!
>
> The tank from my friend turned out to be totally unsuitable - a lot
> smaller than she'd said, and plastic...the cheapo three-fish-at-a-
> push kind. *But*...
>
> Took my kids to a weekly activity which takes place in a recreation
> centre which has a very large aquarium in the hall, and as we went
> in, I noticed one of the women from their group feeding the fish -
> turns out she does this for a living! She runs a business which sets
> up and maintains aquariums for businesses etc - how cool is that, she
> gets to play fish all day and even get paid for it! LOL. Anyway, she
> has: a) given me her phone number in case we've any more problems; b)
> offered to bring some seeded gravel next week if I need it; and c)
> told me she has a couple of second-hand tanks for sale...
>
> Fate or what?! :-D
>
Wow :-) You're in for it now - lol

The company I used to work for (before I got fed up with
lifestyle/commute etc and opted to stay at home, look after my kids,
look after my ever increasing number of tanks and help out hubbie's
business) used to have a marine tank - wonderful to watch without the
hassle of maintaining one - I think that was sub-contracted out for
maintenance as well....

One plan (not my idea actually) is to put a tank into the office - I'm
thinking a 30 gall filled with Neon Tetras would look great - but needs
more research and thought - I know who will end up maintaining it - lol

Gill

[Elaine T]

FishNoob wrote:
> In article >,
> says...
>
>>Remind me...what else have you got in the tank?
>
>
> I'm almost afraid to say, because I *know* it's already overstocked.
> My excuse is that A Certain Parent and A Certain Child went to the
> pet-shop on Sunday with instructions to get two mollies (colour of
> their choosing) and told we'd get neons sometime too. And they either
> didn't listen, or didn't obey. Huh.
>
> Okay, so here's what I've got:
> - 5 danios (2 zebra, 1 leopard)
> - 2 neon tetras
> - 5 mollies
>
> Actually, it might be worse than that. Looking at websites last
> night, I suspect that what they were sold on Sunday wasn't two orange
> mollies, but two sailfin mollies.
>
> Oh yeah, and we've got at least three molly fry.
>
> Please don't beat up on me.
>
> I see another tank in my near future. I might be able to borrow one
> from a friend, but it won't have the light and heater - might have a
> filter though. S'pose I'll be ebaying in that case...I can buy stuff
> like heaters there, but there haven't been any tanks that I'd have
> access to in months (they're all pick-up only).
>
> The good news is this: we've not lost any fish in over 24 hours, all
> are behaving normally and look well. Ammonia is 0 and nitrite is less
> than 0.1 - I guess all those water-changes finally did the trick. And
> I don't think I'll allow other family members loose in the pet shop
> without my supervision again...
>

Heh. Family members should have their own tanks. ;-)

That stocking actually isn't too bad for 15 UK gallons. I can't
remember whether you're growing plants or not - the stocking would be
fine for a planted tank and mollies love soft-leaved plants and algae to
nibble on. Floating water sprite is great if you can find some. As
you've surmised, you will need some form of molly population control or
the stocking will go out of control.

I'm glad to hear the ammonia is gone and the nitrites are down. Your
tank may be settling down now. Aso glad to hear you found a local
expert and fellow fishaholic. She sounds like an invaluable resource.

--
Elaine T __
http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><
rec.aquaria.* FAQ http://faq.thekrib.com

[NetMax]

"Gill Passman" > wrote in message
.. .
> FishNoob wrote:
>> In article >,
>> says...
>>
>>>So the next post will be "how to seed a tank" - LOL
>>
>>
>> LOL!
>>
>> The tank from my friend turned out to be totally unsuitable - a lot
>> smaller than she'd said, and plastic...the cheapo three-fish-at-a-
>> push kind. *But*...
>>
>> Took my kids to a weekly activity which takes place in a recreation
>> centre which has a very large aquarium in the hall, and as we went in, I
>> noticed one of the women from their group feeding the fish - turns out
>> she does this for a living! She runs a business which sets up and
>> maintains aquariums for businesses etc - how cool is that, she gets to
>> play fish all day and even get paid for it! LOL. Anyway, she has: a)
>> given me her phone number in case we've any more problems; b) offered to
>> bring some seeded gravel next week if I need it; and c) told me she has a
>> couple of second-hand tanks for sale...
>>
>> Fate or what?! :-D
>>
> Wow :-) You're in for it now - lol
>
> The company I used to work for (before I got fed up with lifestyle/commute
> etc and opted to stay at home, look after my kids, look after my ever
> increasing number of tanks and help out hubbie's business) used to have a
> marine tank - wonderful to watch without the hassle of maintaining one - I
> think that was sub-contracted out for maintenance as well....
>
> One plan (not my idea actually) is to put a tank into the office - I'm
> thinking a 30 gall filled with Neon Tetras would look great - but needs
> more research and thought - I know who will end up maintaining it - lol
>
> Gill


At the store, we had at least one 60g tanks of just Neons. With commercial
filtration, I could keep about 600 per tank. Whenever my stocks got low
(around 200), I would order 300 more. The new Neons would be unfamiliar
with their surrounding (which were actually quite posh, with a Sunset hygro
covered bottom) and they would start shoaling (collecting most of all the
other Neons in the tank with them). There were 2 chunks of driftwood in the
ends of the tank surrounded by various plants, so the Neons would swim
around them, making a figure 8 pattern (if viewed from above). I've now set
the stage.

Customers would come in, view the tank and literally come to a standstill
with their mouths open. Imagine 500-600 Neons swimming in a continuous
figure 8 ribbon around the plants and driftwood. Where the two ribbons of
fish met in the centre of the tank, one direction would go up and over the
other, then sometimes through each other, then under. It only lasted for a
few hours, but I always enjoyed working that day :o).
--
www.NetMax.tk

[Gill Passman]

NetMax wrote:
> "Gill Passman" > wrote in message
> .. .
>
>>FishNoob wrote:
>>
>>>In article >,
says...
>>>
>>>
>>>>So the next post will be "how to seed a tank" - LOL
>>>
>>>
>>>LOL!
>>>
>>>The tank from my friend turned out to be totally unsuitable - a lot
>>>smaller than she'd said, and plastic...the cheapo three-fish-at-a-
>>>push kind. *But*...
>>>
>>>Took my kids to a weekly activity which takes place in a recreation
>>>centre which has a very large aquarium in the hall, and as we went in, I
>>>noticed one of the women from their group feeding the fish - turns out
>>>she does this for a living! She runs a business which sets up and
>>>maintains aquariums for businesses etc - how cool is that, she gets to
>>>play fish all day and even get paid for it! LOL. Anyway, she has: a)
>>>given me her phone number in case we've any more problems; b) offered to
>>>bring some seeded gravel next week if I need it; and c) told me she has a
>>>couple of second-hand tanks for sale...
>>>
>>>Fate or what?! :-D
>>>
>>
>>Wow :-) You're in for it now - lol
>>
>>The company I used to work for (before I got fed up with lifestyle/commute
>>etc and opted to stay at home, look after my kids, look after my ever
>>increasing number of tanks and help out hubbie's business) used to have a
>>marine tank - wonderful to watch without the hassle of maintaining one - I
>>think that was sub-contracted out for maintenance as well....
>>
>>One plan (not my idea actually) is to put a tank into the office - I'm
>>thinking a 30 gall filled with Neon Tetras would look great - but needs
>>more research and thought - I know who will end up maintaining it - lol
>>
>>Gill
>
>
>
> At the store, we had at least one 60g tanks of just Neons. With commercial
> filtration, I could keep about 600 per tank. Whenever my stocks got low
> (around 200), I would order 300 more. The new Neons would be unfamiliar
> with their surrounding (which were actually quite posh, with a Sunset hygro
> covered bottom) and they would start shoaling (collecting most of all the
> other Neons in the tank with them). There were 2 chunks of driftwood in the
> ends of the tank surrounded by various plants, so the Neons would swim
> around them, making a figure 8 pattern (if viewed from above). I've now set
> the stage.
>
> Customers would come in, view the tank and literally come to a standstill
> with their mouths open. Imagine 500-600 Neons swimming in a continuous
> figure 8 ribbon around the plants and driftwood. Where the two ribbons of
> fish met in the centre of the tank, one direction would go up and over the
> other, then sometimes through each other, then under. It only lasted for a
> few hours, but I always enjoyed working that day :o).


But how sustainable would that be long-term? I'm very tempted by the
concept as it would be totally different - might experiment with the
look in the 5 gall QT tank that hasn't found it's way back into the box
yet (oh dear - number 7 - but it could be QT for these neons). I think
maybe I should make a new post on this

Gill