Got the New Tank...working on plumbing

[Glengoyne]

Allright, As I stated in another thread we have made the move to a 75
gallon tank. We have the tank, stand, and all the accessories. Now
comes the joy of putting it all together. In the final analysis the
sale wasn't as good as we had been told, some Jr. fish sales person had
said that everything was 50% off...but it turned out that fish were 50%
off. As a result, we decided on a single Fluval 404 rather than two
304s. We lose some redundancy, but saved some money.

What I'm planning to do is connect the output of the 404 to an under
gravel filter creating a RUGF. The UGF I has three 15"x12" plates that
can be configured as 45x12 or 36x15. The tank is 48"x 18. I'm
planning to punch out the flow-through panels on the sides of the
filter plates to create one large filter plate (45"x12). I've slid
that toward the front of the tank, to provide an area at the back of
the tank where there will be no UGF. Our thought is to heavilly plant
that area, and possibly mix in some finer substrate at the rear of the
tank to better accomodate the plants. A plastic divider will be used
to provide somewhat of a barrier to prevent the finer substrate and
some of the roots from interacting with the UGF. I'm also hoping that
by punching out the flow through panels, the output of the 404 will be
somewhat evenly distributed beneath the UGF plates.

On to the plumbing... The input for the UGF is a 3/4" hard plastic
tube. I'm planning to use a 3/4" PVC slip/slip elbow to run a 3/4"
pipe to the rear of the tank where another elbow will connect to either
a horizontal PVC riser or some vinyl tubing (either 5/8" or 3/4".) I
haven't tried any of this yet, but I think my 5/8" vinyl tubing ought
to slip over the end of a threaded 3/4" PVC adapter if the tubing is
heated. I plan to top those off with a hose clamp, at least when
making those connections outside the tank. Alternatively I've seen
reference here to folks joining 3/4" vinyl tube with 5/8" using a
combination of heating/cooling and PVC cement. As the filter itself
uses 5/8" connections, this transition is somewhat important.

I figure that this is a pretty common issue, so someone can hopefully
tell me if any of the above proposals will, literally, "hold water."

Thanks in Advance

[Rod Bacon]

This sounds similar to my setup, except I used a couple of cheap-ass
internal filters
(http://www.equarium.com.au/store/detail.asp?id=285&cat=24
), one at each end, and divided my RUGF plate into two halves. My tank
is a 4-footer (200L).

The problem I had was aeration. With the RUGF taking all the flow from
my internals, I had no water disturbance in the tank (no surface
agitation) and therefore no oxygen transfer. The first fish I stocked
died of hypoxia before my very eyes.

I ended up drilling a small hole (about 6mm) in the (electrical) PVC
elbows that connect my filters to the RUGF risers, creating a jet of
water aimed at a 45 degree angle towards the surface of the tank from
one side, and directly across the tank from the other. This created a
healthy (but not overly-strong) current, and promoted oxygen transfer.
I have also since installed a flexible air stone, along the back edge
of the tank, partially for oxygenation but mainly for effect.

Don't believe the hype about (R)UGF's and live plants not co-existing.
This may be the case with plants that are more difficult to grow, but
mine are all going great, with only a single 40W tube. Many of my
plants don't require substrate rooting (Java Moss, Java Fern), but the
ones that do are also thriving. I chose things that are simple to grow
(ambulia, wisteria, cryptos), and add a little liquid fertiliser. I
also have DIY CO2, but I don't think that is making a huge difference.
My wisteria is growing around 6 inches every week. I've had to cut it
into 3 separate plants, and am about to do it again. Real plants are a
must in my opinion. They provide shelter for fry, food for the
ravenous, look really cool and also importantly absorb some of the
nasty stuff in the water.

I find that having a large capacity bio filter (the RUGF) really helps
maintain constant ammonia levels. When I clean the tank, I never vacuum
the substrate and clean the filter sponges at the same time, as I feel
this would be getting rid of too much beneficial bacteria at once,
potentially resulting in an ammonia spike. I do one thing one week,
then the other the following week (well.. sometimes each week!).

Would love to hear how it all goes for you.

[Glengoyne]

I have thought about somehow dividing the flow between the RUGF and the
stock output nozzle that came with the Fluval. I guess the thing that
has stopped me, is that I don't know how to regulate the water flow
being diverted to the output. I think if I just divide the tube, then
almost all of the water will flow through the nozzle(path of least
resistance), reducing the output of the RUGF, to possibly to too low of
a level. Unless I get that figured out, I'll be using old fashioned
airstones, actually a foot long bar version, to provide surface
agitation.

[Daniel Morrow]

Mid posted.


"Glengoyne" > wrote in message
ups.com...
> I have thought about somehow dividing the flow between the RUGF and the
> stock output nozzle that came with the Fluval. I guess the thing that
> has stopped me, is that I don't know how to regulate the water flow

You could try installing a pvc ball valve or maybe a number of them. My best
temporary advice to you would be to call That fish place (phone number, and
only recommended if you live in america) and explain to them what you are
trying to do and ask them for recommendations, that would make it as easy as
possible. If you live outside america try a lfs or plumbing supply store
(hardware store maybe), I find them often eager to help. I love both the
external and internal fluval filters as even though the internals have a
square output they all come with a venturi air adapter that has a round end,
and you can plug the venturi and install the adapter and plug the filter
into practically any kind of plumbing/tubing situation - excellent
modularity and modifyableness. Good luck and later!


> being diverted to the output. I think if I just divide the tube, then
> almost all of the water will flow through the nozzle(path of least
> resistance), reducing the output of the RUGF, to possibly to too low of
> a level. Unless I get that figured out, I'll be using old fashioned
> airstones, actually a foot long bar version, to provide surface
> agitation.
>

[NetMax]

"Glengoyne" > wrote in message
ups.com...
> Allright, As I stated in another thread we have made the move to a 75
> gallon tank. We have the tank, stand, and all the accessories. Now
> comes the joy of putting it all together. In the final analysis the
> sale wasn't as good as we had been told, some Jr. fish sales person had
> said that everything was 50% off...but it turned out that fish were 50%
> off. As a result, we decided on a single Fluval 404 rather than two
> 304s. We lose some redundancy, but saved some money.
>
> What I'm planning to do is connect the output of the 404 to an under
> gravel filter creating a RUGF. The UGF I has three 15"x12" plates that
> can be configured as 45x12 or 36x15. The tank is 48"x 18. I'm
> planning to punch out the flow-through panels on the sides of the
> filter plates to create one large filter plate (45"x12). I've slid
> that toward the front of the tank, to provide an area at the back of
> the tank where there will be no UGF. Our thought is to heavilly plant
> that area, and possibly mix in some finer substrate at the rear of the
> tank to better accomodate the plants. A plastic divider will be used
> to provide somewhat of a barrier to prevent the finer substrate and
> some of the roots from interacting with the UGF. I'm also hoping that
> by punching out the flow through panels, the output of the 404 will be
> somewhat evenly distributed beneath the UGF plates.
>
> On to the plumbing... The input for the UGF is a 3/4" hard plastic
> tube. I'm planning to use a 3/4" PVC slip/slip elbow to run a 3/4"
> pipe to the rear of the tank where another elbow will connect to either
> a horizontal PVC riser or some vinyl tubing (either 5/8" or 3/4".) I
> haven't tried any of this yet, but I think my 5/8" vinyl tubing ought
> to slip over the end of a threaded 3/4" PVC adapter if the tubing is
> heated. I plan to top those off with a hose clamp, at least when
> making those connections outside the tank. Alternatively I've seen
> reference here to folks joining 3/4" vinyl tube with 5/8" using a
> combination of heating/cooling and PVC cement. As the filter itself
> uses 5/8" connections, this transition is somewhat important.
>
> I figure that this is a pretty common issue, so someone can hopefully
> tell me if any of the above proposals will, literally, "hold water."
>
> Thanks in Advance


It's too bad you couldn't score the two canisters. My suggestion is to
purchase a 2nd filter of some sort. It doesn't need to be expensive or
fancy. You want it for turbulence, which is why canisters are ideal, but
a powerfilter, or a sponge powerhead will suffice. This will allow you
to break up the surface protein layer, re-oxygenate and have a little
redundancy. An airstone will do the same thing, but without the
bacterial redundancy.

In regards to connections, I always connect hard piping to softer hoses.
Connecting different sized hoses to each other doesn't work well, and
connecting hard piping to each other relies on adhesives and you have no
way to clamp it. When clamping soft vinyl to hard plastic, use stainless
steel hose clamps.
--
www.NetMax.tk

[Glengoyne]

Allright I'll stick with my plan to use 3/4" tubing everywhere, and
I'll figure a way to reduce down to 5/8". How about Brass fittings?
I'm pretty sure I wouldn't want to use copper, but what about brass?
I've found a brass reducer that will take me from 3/4 to 5/8. For
making the connection to the UGF, I'm currently planning on cutting the
UGF riser down, and using PVC cement to glue 3/4" vinyl tubing to it.
The Vinyl tubing will then in turn be cemented to a hard PVC elbow,
again using PVC Cement. That elbow will direct a piece of 3/4" PVC to
the back corner of the tank, where another elbow will attach to yet
another 3/4" vinyl tube cemented to the PVC ell.

I've heard that PVC Cement will hold the vinyl tubing to the
PVC...even without clamps. Since my 3/4" tubing fits inside the 3/4"
PVC Ells, I'm counting on this. I just don't have anything to clamp.

For the connections outside the tank, I'm looking to use 3/4" PVC with
male threads to join to the 3/4" vinyl tubing. These connections, I'll
follow up with clamps.

One last thing...as I'm nearing the point of putting water in the
tank....Do I need to do anything to reinforce the tank or stand? The
stand only supports the tank at the edges. I'm planning on making sure
the stand is as perfectly level as possible, but I've read about using
styrofoam under tanks with full underside support for insurance. I'm
not seeing how that would work with stands that only support the edges
of the tank?

[Glengoyne]

I did manage to find 3/4" ball valves, so I'm going to be giving this a
shot.

[Daniel Morrow]

Bottom posted.


"Glengoyne" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> I did manage to find 3/4" ball valves, so I'm going to be giving this a
> shot.
>

Cool!

[Daniel Morrow]

Mid posted.


"Glengoyne" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> Allright I'll stick with my plan to use 3/4" tubing everywhere, and
> I'll figure a way to reduce down to 5/8". How about Brass fittings?
> I'm pretty sure I wouldn't want to use copper, but what about brass?

Isn't it safe to have brass be in contact with aquarium water in it's tank?
Experts? I think it's safe.


> I've found a brass reducer that will take me from 3/4 to 5/8. For
> making the connection to the UGF, I'm currently planning on cutting the
> UGF riser down, and using PVC cement to glue 3/4" vinyl tubing to it.
> The Vinyl tubing will then in turn be cemented to a hard PVC elbow,
> again using PVC Cement. That elbow will direct a piece of 3/4" PVC to
> the back corner of the tank, where another elbow will attach to yet
> another 3/4" vinyl tube cemented to the PVC ell.
>
> I've heard that PVC Cement will hold the vinyl tubing to the
> PVC...even without clamps. Since my 3/4" tubing fits inside the 3/4"
> PVC Ells, I'm counting on this. I just don't have anything to clamp.
>
> For the connections outside the tank, I'm looking to use 3/4" PVC with
> male threads to join to the 3/4" vinyl tubing. These connections, I'll
> follow up with clamps.
>
> One last thing...as I'm nearing the point of putting water in the
> tank....Do I need to do anything to reinforce the tank or stand? The
> stand only supports the tank at the edges. I'm planning on making sure
> the stand is as perfectly level as possible, but I've read about using
> styrofoam under tanks with full underside support for insurance.

Styrofoam is rarely required but always recommended. For what it's worth I
don't have styrofoam under any of my tanks, but then again my largest tanks
are 55 gallons. My 10 gallon quarantine tank has some thin cardboard under 2
corners to keep the tank level as recommended by the manufacturer according
to the information label that came with the tank, but other than that that's
it. You should be able to totally cover the stand's top surface with
styrofoam and trim off any that hangs over the edge and put the tank on top
of that. I don't know about a support supporting the tank's bottom glass
though, other than the styrofoam I previously mentioned.

I'm
> not seeing how that would work with stands that only support the edges
> of the tank?
>

[NetMax]

"Glengoyne" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> Allright I'll stick with my plan to use 3/4" tubing everywhere, and
> I'll figure a way to reduce down to 5/8". How about Brass fittings?
> I'm pretty sure I wouldn't want to use copper, but what about brass?
> I've found a brass reducer that will take me from 3/4 to 5/8. For
> making the connection to the UGF, I'm currently planning on cutting the
> UGF riser down, and using PVC cement to glue 3/4" vinyl tubing to it.
> The Vinyl tubing will then in turn be cemented to a hard PVC elbow,
> again using PVC Cement. That elbow will direct a piece of 3/4" PVC to
> the back corner of the tank, where another elbow will attach to yet
> another 3/4" vinyl tube cemented to the PVC ell.

Stainless steel is the metal of choice in aquariums. Aluminium used to
be used. I don't know about brass.

> I've heard that PVC Cement will hold the vinyl tubing to the
> PVC...even without clamps. Since my 3/4" tubing fits inside the 3/4"
> PVC Ells, I'm counting on this. I just don't have anything to clamp.

Let us know how it works.

> For the connections outside the tank, I'm looking to use 3/4" PVC with
> male threads to join to the 3/4" vinyl tubing. These connections, I'll
> follow up with clamps.
>
> One last thing...as I'm nearing the point of putting water in the
> tank....Do I need to do anything to reinforce the tank or stand? The
> stand only supports the tank at the edges. I'm planning on making sure
> the stand is as perfectly level as possible, but I've read about using
> styrofoam under tanks with full underside support for insurance. I'm
> not seeing how that would work with stands that only support the edges
> of the tank?

Styrofoam on an edge-only tank-stand still smoothes out any problems
(irregularities) and acts as an insulator. Even on flat stands, the tank
often only sits on its edge. For styrofoam in your application, use
extruded polystyrene (no bubbles) instead of expanded polystyrene (made
of bubbles). You want that extra rigidity with an edge-only stand (if
you are using any styrofoam).
--
www.NetMax.tk

[smcclure415]

I found plastic adapters that will take me from 3/4" to 5/8", so we
won't need to do any experimenting with brass. I also found better
adapters to bridge the PVC/UGF gap, so I won't have to try to pvc glue
the vinyl tube in place. We've assembled all of the pieces to connect
the filter to the RUGF as well as the plumbing for an easy water change
system. It was quite a bit of work. Lots of cutting and gluing, and
more carpentry than I had planned on, but I'm pretty happy with the
results. Now lets just hope it holds water. =)

Next step is the Styrofoam and the gravel. We're nearly in the home
stretch. Thanks again for all of the tips and advice.