Black Brush and green algae problems.

[.D.E.]

I recently redid my substrate last may and replaced it with the Black
Oceanic substrate. It looks great and haven't had many problems. I tried to
remove any Malaysian trumpet snail eggs from the plants. Now the snails are
back, quite a few. Usually 2 every inch of substrate. I have noticed within
the last month, black brush growing again and a green film on top of the
water. I do biweekly water changes now, aprox 30%. I did notice that the
nitrates are about 12.5, I added some nitrate remover today as well as added
co2 again at 2 bubbles per sec. Nitrites are ok, ph, 6.8, no phosphates, no
ammonia, GH 7 KH are about 3.

Is it possible that the amount of trumpet snails could be effecting the
nitrates? The fish are fine, japonica are well, and everyone is happy,
except me since the algae is becoming a real problem.

Any suggestions on how to remove them without chemicals?

Thanks.

--
Later.

D.E.

Have a better one.

To reply, simply remove:forgetthespam.

[Mark Baldwin]

The best way to avoid algae is to make sure your plants have everything they
need to grow, then they will simple outcompete the algae for nutrients.

This isn't an easy thing to do since if your missing just one nutrient then
the plants will slow down and the algae increase.

Generally...

Phospate - 0.1ppm
Nitrate - <5ppm
CO2 - 20-35ppm
GH - >3 ( calcium/potassium/magnesium )

You say you have no phospate - this will limit plant growth and you will
probably see green algae on the glass and leaves.

If you have algae on the water surface it's a sure sign of overfeeding.

pH of 6.8 and KH of 3 means approx 14ppm of CO2 - the plants will grow
better if the CO2 is above 20ppm (just change your KH to 4)

Don't use any pH buffers!

--
Best regards
Mark

".D.E." > wrote in message
news:xEg0f.65516$1i.62336@pd7tw2no...
>I recently redid my substrate last may and replaced it with the Black
>Oceanic substrate. It looks great and haven't had many problems. I tried to
>remove any Malaysian trumpet snail eggs from the plants. Now the snails are
>back, quite a few. Usually 2 every inch of substrate. I have noticed within
>the last month, black brush growing again and a green film on top of the
>water. I do biweekly water changes now, aprox 30%. I did notice that the
>nitrates are about 12.5, I added some nitrate remover today as well as
>added co2 again at 2 bubbles per sec. Nitrites are ok, ph, 6.8, no
>phosphates, no ammonia, GH 7 KH are about 3.
>
> Is it possible that the amount of trumpet snails could be effecting the
> nitrates? The fish are fine, japonica are well, and everyone is happy,
> except me since the algae is becoming a real problem.
>
> Any suggestions on how to remove them without chemicals?
>
> Thanks.
>
> --
> Later.
>
> D.E.
>
> Have a better one.
>
> To reply, simply remove:forgetthespam.
>

[Koi-Lo]

*Note: There are two "Koi-Lo's" on the pond and aquaria groups.

"Mark Baldwin" > wrote in message
...
> The best way to avoid algae is to make sure your plants have everything
> they need to grow, then they will simple outcompete the algae for
> nutrients.

I'm using Excel and Flourish micronutrients plus extra Potash and still have
an algae problem. :-( The black sooty algae has been replaced by a black
wiry, very ugly algae now. Neither the goldfish, the otos nor the 2 plecos
will eat it.

> This isn't an easy thing to do since if your missing just one nutrient
> then the plants will slow down and the algae increase.

How can anyone possibly know without extensive expensive testing what that
nutrient can be?

> Generally...

> Phospate - 0.1ppm

No test for that one.

> Nitrate - <5ppm

Mine stays around 15 to 20ppm, as it comes from the tap.

> CO2 - 20-35ppm

No test kit for this one either.

> GH - >3 ( calcium/potassium/magnesium )

Over 300 and alkaline - 7.5 and above.

> You say you have no phospate - this will limit plant growth and you will
> probably see green algae on the glass and leaves.

We get the red-black sooty or wiry algae. :(

> If you have algae on the water surface it's a sure sign of overfeeding.
>
> pH of 6.8 and KH of 3 means approx 14ppm of CO2 - the plants will grow
> better if the CO2 is above 20ppm (just change your KH to 4)
>
> Don't use any pH buffers!
>
> --
> Best regards
> Mark
--
Koi-Lo....
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
Troll Information:
~~~~ }<((((*> ~~~ }<{{{{(ö> ~~~~ }<((((({*>

[Mark Baldwin]

If you don't want algae then you need to monitor your tank parameters,
especially phospate and nitrate.

Read about the redfield ratio...
http://www.xs4all.nl/~buddendo/aquarium/redfield_eng.htm


You can estimate CO2 based on pH and KH...

http://www.thekrib.com/Plants/CO2/kh-ph-co2-chart.html

If you tap water has lots of nitrate then either use RO water or use a
nitrate sponge such as NitraZorb
http://www.aquariumpharm.com/en_gb/productCategory.asp?categoryname=Filtration

This stuff will soak up pretty much all your nitrate which won't do your
plants any good but you can use it 24hours before a water change to reduce
nitrate to zero, then when you add your new water you will add nitrate but
it will be diluted into the existing tank water.

--
Best regards
Mark

"Koi-Lo" <None> wrote in message ...
> *Note: There are two "Koi-Lo's" on the pond and aquaria groups.
>
> "Mark Baldwin" > wrote in message
> ...
>> The best way to avoid algae is to make sure your plants have everything
>> they need to grow, then they will simple outcompete the algae for
>> nutrients.
>
> I'm using Excel and Flourish micronutrients plus extra Potash and still
> have an algae problem. :-( The black sooty algae has been replaced by a
> black wiry, very ugly algae now. Neither the goldfish, the otos nor the 2
> plecos will eat it.
>
>> This isn't an easy thing to do since if your missing just one nutrient
>> then the plants will slow down and the algae increase.
>
> How can anyone possibly know without extensive expensive testing what that
> nutrient can be?
>
>> Generally...
>
>> Phospate - 0.1ppm
>
> No test for that one.
>
>> Nitrate - <5ppm
>
> Mine stays around 15 to 20ppm, as it comes from the tap.
>
>> CO2 - 20-35ppm
>
> No test kit for this one either.
>
>> GH - >3 ( calcium/potassium/magnesium )
>
> Over 300 and alkaline - 7.5 and above.
>
>> You say you have no phospate - this will limit plant growth and you will
>> probably see green algae on the glass and leaves.
>
> We get the red-black sooty or wiry algae. :(
>
>> If you have algae on the water surface it's a sure sign of overfeeding.
>>
>> pH of 6.8 and KH of 3 means approx 14ppm of CO2 - the plants will grow
>> better if the CO2 is above 20ppm (just change your KH to 4)
>>
>> Don't use any pH buffers!
>>
>> --
>> Best regards
>> Mark
> --
> Koi-Lo....
> My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
> http://tinyurl.com/9do58
> Troll Information:
> ~~~~ }<((((*> ~~~ }<{{{{(ö> ~~~~ }<((((({*>
>
>
>
>
>

[Koi-Lo]

"Mark Baldwin" > wrote in message
...
> If you don't want algae then you need to monitor your tank parameters,
> especially phospate and nitrate.
>
> Read about the redfield ratio...
> http://www.xs4all.nl/~buddendo/aquarium/redfield_eng.htm
>
> You can estimate CO2 based on pH and KH...
>
> http://www.thekrib.com/Plants/CO2/kh-ph-co2-chart.html
>
> If you tap water has lots of nitrate then either use RO water or use a
> nitrate sponge such as NitraZorb
> http://www.aquariumpharm.com/en_gb/productCategory.asp?categoryname=Filtration
>
> This stuff will soak up pretty much all your nitrate which won't do your
> plants any good but you can use it 24hours before a water change to reduce
> nitrate to zero, then when you add your new water you will add nitrate but
> it will be diluted into the existing tank water.
=================
Thanks for the info. I was hoping I wouldn't need to spend a small fortune
for test kits, fertilizers and other paraphernalia just to grow some nice
plants in these display tanks.......... :(
--
Koi-Lo....
Aquariums since 1952.
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
~~~~ }<((((*> ~~~ }<{{{{(ö> ~~~~ }<((((({*>

[Jolly Fisherman]

On Sat, 3 Jun 2006 15:04:53 -0500, "Koi-Lo" <None> wrote:

>Thanks for the info. I was hoping I wouldn't need to spend a small fortune
>for test kits, fertilizers and other paraphernalia just to grow some nice
>plants in these display tanks.......... :(

Have you tried Barley Straw? It's supposed to be a cheap, safe
algaecide.

Cleaner fish & snails will only eat the shorter forms of black brush
algae. The longer forms react to CO2 and should detach after 2-3
months. If you aren't doing CO2 injection I'd reduce surface
agitation as much as possible and shorten the duration of light.
Rather than waiting for it to fall off and vacuum it up, I'd just get
rid of as much infested plant matter as possible. There are extreme
ways of killing & removing algae with chemical soaks. But the
infested plants are probably so sick it probably isn't going to work.

Maybe slower release substrate fertilization may be of help for
certain plants?

From what I'm seeing a small fortune is almost inevitable as one goes
up the learning curve. I'm finding it MUCH more expensive than
fishkeeping. IMHO Aquatic gardening on a tight budget is like fish
keeping with a small tank. More precision is required, it's harder to
move forward, and mistakes have bigger consequences. Of course I'm
trying to learn on the cheap as well :)

I just ordered "Algae: A problem Solver Guide" - Sprung. Maybe others
have reading recommendations that have helped them they can endorse?

[Köi-Lö]

*Note: There are two "Koi-Lo's" on the pond and aquaria groups.

"Jolly Fisherman" > wrote in message
...
> On Sat, 3 Jun 2006 15:04:53 -0500, "Koi-Lo" <None> wrote:
>
>>Thanks for the info. I was hoping I wouldn't need to spend a small
>>fortune
>>for test kits, fertilizers and other paraphernalia just to grow some nice
>>plants in these display tanks.......... :(
>
> Have you tried Barley Straw? It's supposed to be a cheap, safe
> algaecide.

No, I haven't tried it. They don't sell it locally and it's out of sight
online when they add S&H charges. I can't afford to try everything out
there. I spent quite a bit on all the Sechem Flourish products and the
effect wasn't long lasting. After the initial "boost," things went back to
where they were. The plecos and otos are helping but the "black" stuff is
still there.

> Cleaner fish & snails will only eat the shorter forms of black brush
> algae. The longer forms react to CO2 and should detach after 2-3
> months.

The sooty algae stopped growing but by no means did it fall off or turn
white as I expected it to do. The plecs and otos removed most if it. Then
it was replaced by this black wiry looking stuff. Meanwhile the plants are
looking pooped again. The Amazon swords have stopped growing and the leaves
are getting narrower and smaller. Only the vals are really thriving. I do
add extra potassium but it makes no difference.

If you aren't doing CO2 injection I'd reduce surface
> agitation as much as possible and shorten the duration of light.
> Rather than waiting for it to fall off and vacuum it up, I'd just get
> rid of as much infested plant matter as possible. There are extreme
> ways of killing & removing algae with chemical soaks. But the
> infested plants are probably so sick it probably isn't going to work.

I use Flourish Excel.

> Maybe slower release substrate fertilization may be of help for
> certain plants?

I just don't have the time and energy to tear these two 55s down and re-do
them. This is the busiest time of the year here.

> From what I'm seeing a small fortune is almost inevitable as one goes
> up the learning curve. I'm finding it MUCH more expensive than
> fishkeeping. IMHO Aquatic gardening on a tight budget is like fish
> keeping with a small tank. More precision is required, it's harder to
> move forward, and mistakes have bigger consequences. Of course I'm
> trying to learn on the cheap as well :)

I know what you mean. :-)) I may just give up and keep those that thrive
without all the expensive supplements - the vals, hornwart, anubia, elodia,
Java moss and a few slow-growing old crypts I've had for many years. I
suppose I just wanted to see some NEW or different plants in the tanks.

> I just ordered "Algae: A problem Solver Guide" - Sprung. Maybe others
> have reading recommendations that have helped them they can endorse?
--
KL....
Frugal ponding since 1995.
Aquariums since 1952.
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
*Note: There are two "Koi-Lo's" on the pond and aquaria groups.
~~~~ }<((((*> ~~~ }<{{{{(ö> ~~~~ }<((((({*>

[Köi-Lö]

On Fri, 16 Jun 2006 17:23:02 -0500, Köi-Lö <¤1¤ôx@ôÜ1Ô.ôôô> wrote:

>*Note: There are five "Koi-Lo's" on the pond and aquaria groups.
>
>"Jolly Fisherman" > wrote in message
...
>> On Sat, 3 Jun 2006 15:04:53 -0500, "Koi-Lo" <None> wrote:
>>
>>>Thanks for the info. I was hoping I wouldn't need to spend a small
>>>fortune
>>>for test kits, fertilizers and other paraphernalia just to grow some nice
>>>plants in these display tanks.......... :(

I am a cheap son of a bitch when it comes to buying stuff. If I can;t
shop lift it or get Randy to rip it off, I do without.
>>
>> Have you tried Barley Straw? It's supposed to be a cheap, safe
>> algaecide.
>
No, randy keeps easting it as he is a mushroom and mushrooms like
straw bedding.
>No, I haven't tried it. They don't sell it locally and it's out of sight
>online when they add S&H charges.

Like I said I am a ****ing cheap son of a bitch.
I can't afford to try everything out
>there.
No time to ploay with junk I have usenet groups to destroy
I spent quite a bit on all the Sechem Flourish products and the
>effect wasn't long lasting.

Guess I should not have water it down. after all like I said I am a
cheap SOB.
After the initial "boost," things went back to
>where they were. The plecos and otos are helping but the "black" stuff is
>still there.
>

Only thing else in this area thats black is my well,mmmmmm I just as
soon not divulge that ****up.
>> Cleaner fish & snails will only eat the shorter forms of black brush
>> algae. The longer forms react to CO2 and should detach after 2-3
>> months.

I do not have 2 or 3 months to fool around. I may try pool chlorinator
tomorrow
>
>The sooty algae stopped growing but by no means did it fall off or turn
>white as I expected it to do.

I guess I shoud not have given the fish marajuana to eat inpoace of
veggies, huh?

The plecs and otos removed most if it. Then
>it was replaced by this black wiry looking stuff. Meanwhile the plants are
>looking pooped again. The Amazon swords have stopped growing and the leaves
>are getting narrower and smaller. Only the vals are really thriving. I do
>add extra potassium but it makes no difference.
I think I may pull those ploants and feed em to RAndy tonight for a
salad. He is stupid and will not know it from Kale
>
>If you aren't doing CO2 injection I'd reduce surface

Only think I inject is heroin, can;t you tell........
>> agitation as much as possible and shorten the duration of light.
Only agitatin I do is nthe usenet groups
>> Rather than waiting for it to fall off and vacuum it up, I'd just get
>> rid of as much infested plant matter as possible. There are extreme
>> ways of killing & removing algae with chemical soaks. But the
>> infested plants are probably so sick it probably isn't going to work.
Like I said, I'll pull it all and feed it to Randy
>
>I use Flourish Excel.
I use Trojans myself unless of course I give oral then I just
swallow...
>
>> Maybe slower release substrate fertilization may be of help for
>> certain plants?
Guess we need to stop using the tanks for a toilet then.....
>
>I just don't have the time and energy to tear these two 55s down and re-do
>them. This is the busiest time of the year here.
I have too much to do with keeping the usenet in turmoil than fool
with these stupid plants.

>
>> From what I'm seeing a small fortune is almost inevitable as one goes
>> up the learning curve. I'm finding it MUCH more expensive than
>> fishkeeping.

Because I am such a dumbass

IMHO Aquatic gardening on a tight budget is like fish
>> keeping with a small tank. More precision is required, it's harder to
>> move forward, and mistakes have bigger consequences. Of course I'm
>> trying to learn on the cheap as well :)
I am just to stupid to comprehend all this crap
>
>I know what you mean. :-)) I may just give up and keep those that thrive
>without all the expensive supplements - the vals, hornwart, anubia, elodia,
>Java moss and a few slow-growing old crypts I've had for many years. I
>suppose I just wanted to see some NEW or different plants in the tanks.

I need to quite the crypts and jion the bloods like Randy said we
should
>
>> I just ordered "Algae: A problem Solver Guide" - Sprung. Maybe others
>> have reading recommendations that have helped them they can endorse?
I just have to find someone to read it to me now as I am one
illiterate asshole. Look that word up in a dictionary and yu can see
my picture next to it, and if yuuy want to see what Randy looks like
look up the word Moron. or mushroom.


--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

[Jolly Fisherman]

On Fri, 16 Jun 2006 17:23:02 -0500, Köi-Lö <¤1¤ôx@ôÜ1Ô.ôôô> wrote:

<snip>
>> Have you tried Barley Straw? It's supposed to be a cheap, safe
>> algaecide.
>
>No, I haven't tried it. They don't sell it locally and it's out of sight
>online when they add S&H charges. I can't afford to try everything out
>there. I spent quite a bit on all the Sechem Flourish products and the
>effect wasn't long lasting. After the initial "boost," things went back to
>where they were. The plecos and otos are helping but the "black" stuff is
>still there.

I've only seen the extract in 1 or 2 aquarium specialty shops locally
(different state of course) and it's out of sight. True the shipping
and handling of either a bale or the extract makes it absurd unless
you are already ordering other things at the time.

>> Cleaner fish & snails will only eat the shorter forms of black brush
>> algae. The longer forms react to CO2 and should detach after 2-3
>> months.
>
>The sooty algae stopped growing but by no means did it fall off or turn
>white as I expected it to do. The plecs and otos removed most if it. Then
>it was replaced by this black wiry looking stuff. Meanwhile the plants are
>looking pooped again. The Amazon swords have stopped growing and the leaves
>are getting narrower and smaller. Only the vals are really thriving. I do
>add extra potassium but it makes no difference.

It might take some more time to fall off, then again conditions might
still be such that it is still surviving well and choking the plants
(more likely).

wish I was more of an expert here. I'm telling you mostly what I've
read in books. I've had a similar infestation. It stopped by
adjusting light and increasing nutrients. But the old algae has not
yet fallen off. Since there's a lot of new, good growth, and I've
been wanting to revamp the aquascape anyway, I'm just going to rip out
and replant.

>If you aren't doing CO2 injection I'd reduce surface
>> agitation as much as possible and shorten the duration of light.
>> Rather than waiting for it to fall off and vacuum it up, I'd just get
>> rid of as much infested plant matter as possible. There are extreme
>> ways of killing & removing algae with chemical soaks. But the
>> infested plants are probably so sick it probably isn't going to work.
>
>I use Flourish Excel.

I'm not 100% sure Flourish is truly equivalent to CO2 fertilization.
At least I've been reading conflicting things.

>> Maybe slower release substrate fertilization may be of help for
>> certain plants?
>
>I just don't have the time and energy to tear these two 55s down and re-do
>them. This is the busiest time of the year here.

Isn't Murphy's law a bitch?

>> From what I'm seeing a small fortune is almost inevitable as one goes
>> up the learning curve. I'm finding it MUCH more expensive than
>> fishkeeping. IMHO Aquatic gardening on a tight budget is like fish
>> keeping with a small tank. More precision is required, it's harder to
>> move forward, and mistakes have bigger consequences. Of course I'm
>> trying to learn on the cheap as well :)
>
>I know what you mean. :-)) I may just give up and keep those that thrive
>without all the expensive supplements - the vals, hornwart, anubia, elodia,
>Java moss and a few slow-growing old crypts I've had for many years. I
>suppose I just wanted to see some NEW or different plants in the tanks.

sounds like you had a good system. Maybe if you haven't given up on
experimenting, a tank with mostly tried and true successful plants
adding just a few new experimental plants might work better? Even if
the experiments are having a rough time there are enough healthy
plants to out compete algae. It may give you more leeway to either
adjust conditions or decide it's not going to work/worth the effort.

>> I just ordered "Algae: A problem Solver Guide" - Sprung. Maybe others
>> have reading recommendations that have helped them they can endorse?

[Köi-Lö]

Jolly >wrote:

> On Fri, 16 Jun 2006 17:23:02 -0500, Köi-Lö <¤1¤ôx@ôÜ1Ô.ôôô> wrote:
>
> <snip>
>>> Have you tried Barley Straw? It's supposed to be a cheap, safe
>>> algaecide.
>>
>>No, I haven't tried it. They don't sell it locally and it's out of sight
>>online when they add S&H charges. I can't afford to try everything out
>>there. I spent quite a bit on all the Sechem Flourish products and the
>>effect wasn't long lasting. After the initial "boost," things went back to
>>where they were. The plecos and otos are helping but the "black" stuff is
>>still there.
>
> I've only seen the extract in 1 or 2 aquarium specialty shops locally
> (different state of course) and it's out of sight. True the shipping
> and handling of either a bale or the extract makes it absurd unless
> you are already ordering other things at the time.

Well, I don't know about all of that. I'm pretty much a stupid ****
who doesn't know a whole lot.

>
>>> Cleaner fish & snails will only eat the shorter forms of black brush
>>> algae. The longer forms react to CO2 and should detach after 2-3
>>> months.
>>
>>The sooty algae stopped growing but by no means did it fall off or turn
>>white as I expected it to do. The plecs and otos removed most if it. Then
>>it was replaced by this black wiry looking stuff. Meanwhile the plants are
>>looking pooped again. The Amazon swords have stopped growing and the leaves
>>are getting narrower and smaller. Only the vals are really thriving. I do
>>add extra potassium but it makes no difference.
>
> It might take some more time to fall off, then again conditions might
> still be such that it is still surviving well and choking the plants
> (more likely).

Choking? Are you threatening me? I have big dogs, you know.

>
> wish I was more of an expert here. I'm telling you mostly what I've
> read in books. I've had a similar infestation. It stopped by
> adjusting light and increasing nutrients. But the old algae has not
> yet fallen off. Since there's a lot of new, good growth, and I've
> been wanting to revamp the aquascape anyway, I'm just going to rip out
> and replant.

Rip out! I have notified Sgt. Pace. STALKER!

>
>>If you aren't doing CO2 injection I'd reduce surface
>>> agitation as much as possible and shorten the duration of light.
>>> Rather than waiting for it to fall off and vacuum it up, I'd just get
>>> rid of as much infested plant matter as possible. There are extreme
>>> ways of killing & removing algae with chemical soaks. But the
>>> infested plants are probably so sick it probably isn't going to work.
>>
>>I use Flourish Excel.
>
> I'm not 100% sure Flourish is truly equivalent to CO2 fertilization.
> At least I've been reading conflicting things.

Are you a completely stupid ****er, or what?

>
>>> Maybe slower release substrate fertilization may be of help for
>>> certain plants?
>>
>>I just don't have the time and energy to tear these two 55s down and re-do
>>them. This is the busiest time of the year here.
>
> Isn't Murphy's law a bitch?

YOU ARE A BITCH! I don't appreciate your goddamned profanity,
cocksucker.

>
>>> From what I'm seeing a small fortune is almost inevitable as one goes
>>> up the learning curve. I'm finding it MUCH more expensive than
>>> fishkeeping. IMHO Aquatic gardening on a tight budget is like fish
>>> keeping with a small tank. More precision is required, it's harder to
>>> move forward, and mistakes have bigger consequences. Of course I'm
>>> trying to learn on the cheap as well :)
>>
>>I know what you mean. :-)) I may just give up and keep those that thrive
>>without all the expensive supplements - the vals, hornwart, anubia, elodia,
>>Java moss and a few slow-growing old crypts I've had for many years. I
>>suppose I just wanted to see some NEW or different plants in the tanks.
>
> sounds like you had a good system. Maybe if you haven't given up on
> experimenting, a tank with mostly tried and true successful plants
> adding just a few new experimental plants might work better? Even if
> the experiments are having a rough time there are enough healthy
> plants to out compete algae. It may give you more leeway to either
> adjust conditions or decide it's not going to work/worth the effort.

You aren't worth the effort, so just **** off, asshole.

>
>>> I just ordered "Algae: A problem Solver Guide" - Sprung. Maybe others
>>> have reading recommendations that have helped them they can endorse?


--
Koi-Lo....
Frugal ponding since 1995.
Aquariums since 1952.
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
I do not post from Earthlink.net
All rude and/or obscene messages posted in my
name are by my impersonator.
~~~~ <((((*> ~~~ <{{{{(ö> ~~~~ }<((((({*>}

[Köi-Lö]

*Note: There are two "Koi-Lo's" on the pond and aquaria groups.
~~~
"Jolly Fisherman" > wrote in message
...

> On Fri, 16 Jun 2006 17:23:02 -0500, Köi-Lö <¤1¤ôx@ôÜ1Ô.ôôô> wrote:
>>No, I haven't tried it. They don't sell it locally and it's out of sight
>>online when they add S&H charges. I can't afford to try everything out
>>there. I spent quite a bit on all the Sechem Flourish products and the
>>effect wasn't long lasting. After the initial "boost," things went back
>>to
>>where they were. The plecos and otos are helping but the "black" stuff is
>>still there.

> I've only seen the extract in 1 or 2 aquarium specialty shops locally
> (different state of course) and it's out of sight. True the shipping
> and handling of either a bale or the extract makes it absurd unless
> you are already ordering other things at the time.

It's just not worth the expense. I tried what was suggested here and that
was enough expense for plants. :-) The plants that were doing well before
all these supplements are still doing well, in fact have improved somewhat
but all the new plants either failed or are failing despite the Seachem
additives (micro-nutrients, Excel, iron etc) and extra light fixtures on the
tanks.

>>The sooty algae stopped growing but by no means did it fall off or turn
>>white as I expected it to do. The plecs and otos removed most if it.
>>Then
>>it was replaced by this black wiry looking stuff. Meanwhile the plants
>>are
>>looking pooped again. The Amazon swords have stopped growing and the
>>leaves
>>are getting narrower and smaller. Only the vals are really thriving. I
>>do
>>add extra potassium but it makes no difference.
>
> It might take some more time to fall off, then again conditions might
> still be such that it is still surviving well and choking the plants
> (more likely).

Well there is no way I can physically handle more vacuuming and partial
water changes. I've improved the lighting and all the supplements plus
bought the plecos and otos. I feel there isn't anything more I can do at
this time. I took down a 10g tank this week and hope to eliminate another
within a month. I also have two ponds out front and large 150g to 680g
tanks (above ground pools) of fish out back. I'm starting to feel
overwhelmed.... it's getting past being a hobby if you know what I mean.
:-) If I don't cut back somewhere I'll be needing to hire a day laborer
soon.

>>I use Flourish Excel.

> I'm not 100% sure Flourish is truly equivalent to CO2 fertilization.
> At least I've been reading conflicting things.

It's probably not but did perk up the plants, especially those that were
doing ok to start with. Or maybe it was the micronutrients that made them a
darker green. The frustrating thing is I ordered more of these products but
then the effects wore off. I added extra potassium but that had no effect
either. My sags are about dead and the Amazon swords look pretty shabby.

>>> Maybe slower release substrate fertilization may be of help for
>>> certain plants?
>>
>>I just don't have the time and energy to tear these two 55s down and re-do
>>them. This is the busiest time of the year here.
>
> Isn't Murphy's law a bitch?

YES!!!! :-D LOL!

>>I know what you mean. :-)) I may just give up and keep those that thrive
>>without all the expensive supplements - the vals, hornwart, anubia,
>>elodia,
>>Java moss and a few slow-growing old crypts I've had for many years. I
>>suppose I just wanted to see some NEW or different plants in the tanks.

> sounds like you had a good system. Maybe if you haven't given up on
> experimenting, a tank with mostly tried and true successful plants
> adding just a few new experimental plants might work better?

That's kind of what I did. I added some "new" plants to cycled tanks that
were set up about 3 months. That was last winter. The plants in these new
setups (actually the tanks had been in an outbuilding for a few years) had
plants from a few established 10gs to get them started off. Then I bough
some new and different plants to experiment with for a change-of-scenery.
Shortly afterward the black sooty algae reared it's ugly head and from there
it's history. Expensive supplements, Excel, serious gravel vacuuming, water
changes and more water changes, more lighting..... Oddly the water wisteria
is thriving in a 10g and has wasted away in the 55s. A small ASword is
doing ok in a 10g but the ones in the 55s will be gone soon I'm sure.

Even if
> the experiments are having a rough time there are enough healthy
> plants to out compete algae. It may give you more leeway to either
> adjust conditions or decide it's not going to work/worth the effort.

Some that are failing are not covered in algae. Since I stopped feeding the
plecs the algae tabs they did remove some of the wiry algae and this evening
I noticed the plants are "cleaner" if that's the word that fits. After all
is said and done I think I'll stick with the "tried and true" as you call
them. :-)

--
KL....
Aquariums since 1952.
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
*Note: There are two "Koi-Lo's" on the pond and aquaria groups.
~~~~ }<((((*> ~~~ }<{{{{(ö> ~~~~ }<((((({*>

[dc]

Jolly Fisherman > wrote in
:

> I've only seen the extract in 1 or 2 aquarium specialty shops locally
> (different state of course) and it's out of sight. True the shipping

We sell Barley & Peat Extract and it is right up front near the cash on
display--it is pond season after all.



> It might take some more time to fall off, then again conditions might
> still be such that it is still surviving well and choking the plants
> (more likely).

The alga doesn't actually "react to CO2," it just gives your plants the
edge in competing for the available nutrients.



>>I use Flourish Excel.
>
> I'm not 100% sure Flourish is truly equivalent to CO2 fertilization.
> At least I've been reading conflicting things.

Seachem's Flourish Excel is not carbon dioxide; it is an organic carbon
compound (primarily polycycloglutaracetal) which serves the same
function for plants. It skips an intermediate step filled by CO2 in the
process of photosynthesis to provide plants what they need to produce
long chain carbon compounds. When you use Excel, plants don't need to
use CO2 to photosynthesize.



>>> I just ordered "Algae: A problem Solver Guide" - Sprung. Maybe
>>> others have reading recommendations that have helped them they can
>>> endorse?

This is a good book--I sold a copy to a customer today, but if it is the
one I am thinking of it mainly tackles problems with marine algae.
While the conditions for avoiding algae in both situations are very
similar, there are some options available to you in fresh that are not
in salt and vice versa.

[Köi-Lö]

>wrote:

> Jolly Fisherman > wrote in
> :
>
>> I've only seen the extract in 1 or 2 aquarium specialty shops locally
>> (different state of course) and it's out of sight. True the shipping
>
> We sell Barley & Peat Extract and it is right up front near the cash on
> display--it is pond season after all.

****ing liar. You're on welfare just like me.

>
>
>
>> It might take some more time to fall off, then again conditions might
>> still be such that it is still surviving well and choking the plants
>> (more likely).
>
> The alga doesn't actually "react to CO2," it just gives your plants the
> edge in competing for the available nutrients.

How ****ing stupid are you anyway? Idiot.

SNIP boring redundant post


--
Koi-Lo....
Frugal ponding since 1995.
Aquariums since 1952.
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
I do not post from Earthlink.net
All rude and/or obscene messages posted in my
name are by my impersonator.
~~~~ <((((*> ~~~ <{{{{(ö> ~~~~ }<((((({*>}

[Jolly Fisherman]

On Fri, 16 Jun 2006 21:48:04 -0500, dc > wrote:

>Jolly Fisherman > wrote in
:
>
>> I've only seen the extract in 1 or 2 aquarium specialty shops locally
>> (different state of course) and it's out of sight. True the shipping
>
>We sell Barley & Peat Extract and it is right up front near the cash on
>display--it is pond season after all.

Where is your shop?

>> It might take some more time to fall off, then again conditions might
>> still be such that it is still surviving well and choking the plants
>> (more likely).
>
>The alga doesn't actually "react to CO2," it just gives your plants the
>edge in competing for the available nutrients.

What you're saying makes sense as that's how it generally works.
Actually I was almost directly quoting the Baensch Aquarium Atlas vol
2 under "Black Brush Algae." They stressed the importance of CO2 for
control of Black Brush Algae but not other types. So it seemed to me
like there was more to CO2 than just helping the plants to grow & out
compete the algae. But I may be putting too much weight on poor
wording in the book.

>>>I use Flourish Excel.
>>
>> I'm not 100% sure Flourish is truly equivalent to CO2 fertilization.
>> At least I've been reading conflicting things.
>
>Seachem's Flourish Excel is not carbon dioxide; it is an organic carbon
>compound (primarily polycycloglutaracetal) which serves the same
>function for plants. It skips an intermediate step filled by CO2 in the
>process of photosynthesis to provide plants what they need to produce
>long chain carbon compounds. When you use Excel, plants don't need to
>use CO2 to photosynthesize.

Yes they are supposed to achieve the same thing but AFAIk they are not
really exact functional equivalents. AFAIK Polycycloglutaracetal is a
proprietary compound that is claimed to be similar but not identical
to natural Photosynthetic intermediates. I don't think it's well
known what exactly Polycycloglutaracetal is or even if it actually is,
in fact, directly taken up by the plants or if there is a more
indirect fertilization process at work. Even by Seachem's admission
"CO2 by itself will give you quantitatively more growth than Excel by
itself."

>>>> I just ordered "Algae: A problem Solver Guide" - Sprung. Maybe
>>>> others have reading recommendations that have helped them they can
>>>> endorse?
>
>This is a good book--I sold a copy to a customer today, but if it is the
>one I am thinking of it mainly tackles problems with marine algae.
>While the conditions for avoiding algae in both situations are very
>similar, there are some options available to you in fresh that are not
>in salt and vice versa.

Just got it in yesterday. I'm disappointed that it indeed mostly
deals with marine issues. An OK read anyway.

[Jolly Fisherman]

On Fri, 16 Jun 2006 21:08:06 -0500, Köi-Lö <¤1¤ôx@ôÜ1Ô.ôôô> wrote:

<snip>
>but all the new plants either failed or are failing despite the Seachem
>additives (micro-nutrients, Excel, iron etc) and extra light fixtures on the
>tanks.

Perhaps its too much light?

<snip>

>Well there is no way I can physically handle more vacuuming and partial
>water changes.

I'm not suggesting that.

> I've improved the lighting and all the supplements plus
>bought the plecos and otos. I feel there isn't anything more I can do at
>this time.

It still seems the plants aren't getting exactly what they need-
missing nutrients (despite best efforts), too much light, etc. Are
the plants showing particular deficiencies or calcification?

<snip>

>>>I use Flourish Excel.
>
>> I'm not 100% sure Flourish is truly equivalent to CO2 fertilization.
>> At least I've been reading conflicting things.
>
>It's probably not but did perk up the plants, especially those that were
>doing ok to start with. Or maybe it was the micronutrients that made them a
>darker green. The frustrating thing is I ordered more of these products but
>then the effects wore off. I added extra potassium but that had no effect
>either. My sags are about dead and the Amazon swords look pretty shabby.

I believe the main ingredient of Excel is Polycycloglutaracetal an
isomeric form of glutaraldehyde, a very powerful disinfectant. Seachem
claims it is less reactive and more easily utilized by plants as a
carbon source. However one wonders if it has some algaecidal
properties. It is dangerous to aquatic life if overdosed. Frankly
I'm not excited about even handling water that has been treated with
Excel.

The iron in flourish is bound to gluconate, a carbohydrate. Seachem
claims this is an additional carbon source. It would seem it is also
accessible to bacteria and converted to sugars & CO2.

Basically these types of nutrients are beneficial to plants, but it's
easy to miss key nutrients or for them no not be as effective or
exactly as advertised IMHO.

>>>> Maybe slower release substrate fertilization may be of help for
>>>> certain plants?
>>>
>>>I just don't have the time and energy to tear these two 55s down and re-do
>>>them. This is the busiest time of the year here.

Take a look at:
http://www.plantguild.com/html/spot_fertilization.html
http://www.plantguild.com/html/substrate_retrofiter.html

<snip>

>That's kind of what I did. I added some "new" plants to cycled tanks that
>were set up about 3 months. That was last winter. The plants in these new
>setups (actually the tanks had been in an outbuilding for a few years) had
>plants from a few established 10gs to get them started off. Then I bough
>some new and different plants to experiment with for a change-of-scenery.
>Shortly afterward the black sooty algae reared it's ugly head and from there
>it's history.

These were already cycled tanks (without plants). Perhaps biobugs are
out competing the plants as well.

>Expensive supplements, Excel, serious gravel vacuuming, water
>changes and more water changes, more lighting..... Oddly the water wisteria
>is thriving in a 10g and has wasted away in the 55s. A small ASword is
>doing ok in a 10g but the ones in the 55s will be gone soon I'm sure.

It might be damaged by such strong light with no real CO2.

>Even if
>> the experiments are having a rough time there are enough healthy
>> plants to out compete algae. It may give you more leeway to either
>> adjust conditions or decide it's not going to work/worth the effort.
>
>Some that are failing are not covered in algae. Since I stopped feeding the
>plecs the algae tabs they did remove some of the wiry algae and this evening
>I noticed the plants are "cleaner" if that's the word that fits. After all
>is said and done I think I'll stick with the "tried and true" as you call
>them. :-)

_how_ they are failing might give you useful information- if you still
care.

[Köi-Lö]

*Note: There are two "Koi-Lo's" on the pond and aquaria groups.

"Jolly Fisherman" > wrote in message
...
> On Fri, 16 Jun 2006 21:08:06 -0500, Köi-Lö <¤1¤ôx@ôÜ1Ô.ôôô> wrote:
>
> <snip>
>>but all the new plants either failed or are failing despite the Seachem
>>additives (micro-nutrients, Excel, iron etc) and extra light fixtures on
>>the
>>tanks.
>
> Perhaps its too much light?

I can't possibly see how four 40w fluorescence can be too much light over a
standard 55g tank. The old faithfuls improved with more light and
nutrients.

> <snip>
>
>>Well there is no way I can physically handle more vacuuming and partial
>>water changes.
>
> I'm not suggesting that.
>
>> I've improved the lighting and all the supplements plus
>>bought the plecos and otos. I feel there isn't anything more I can do at
>>this time.
>
> It still seems the plants aren't getting exactly what they need-
> missing nutrients (despite best efforts), too much light, etc. Are
> the plants showing particular deficiencies or calcification?

No calcification but the swords show signs of potassium deficiency. I add
extra potassium but it doesn't help, so something else must be missing. The
sags rotted away at their bases and the bases weren't covered in gravel.
The water wisteria, ludwigia, rotalia, and gygrophlia got paler and paler
until they all but faded away in the 55s. Meanwhile sharing the same two
55s these are thriving; American vals, anubias, a few crypts, elodia,
hornwart is making a comeback after a major dieoff last winter. The giant
hairgrass is all but gone in one 55 and just hanging on in the other.
They're partly covered in an ugly black algae.

>>> I'm not 100% sure Flourish is truly equivalent to CO2 fertilization.
>>> At least I've been reading conflicting things.

>>It's probably not but did perk up the plants, especially those that were
>>doing ok to start with. Or maybe it was the micronutrients that made them
>>a
>>darker green. The frustrating thing is I ordered more of these products
>>but
>>then the effects wore off. I added extra potassium but that had no effect
>>either. My sags are about dead and the Amazon swords look pretty shabby.

> I believe the main ingredient of Excel is Polycycloglutaracetal an
> isomeric form of glutaraldehyde, a very powerful disinfectant. Seachem
> claims it is less reactive and more easily utilized by plants as a
> carbon source. However one wonders if it has some algaecidal
> properties. It is dangerous to aquatic life if overdosed. Frankly
> I'm not excited about even handling water that has been treated with
> Excel.

I'm not exceeding the recommended amount. I have been having very strange
die-offs of healthy goldfish as I've mentioned here several times. I
wonder........ healthy fish one minute and hours later dead on the bottom.
:-| I never made note of how many hours after adding these supplements
they died.

> The iron in flourish is bound to gluconate, a carbohydrate. Seachem
> claims this is an additional carbon source. It would seem it is also
> accessible to bacteria and converted to sugars & CO2.
> Basically these types of nutrients are beneficial to plants, but it's
> easy to miss key nutrients or for them no not be as effective or
> exactly as advertised IMHO.

Maybe I'll just start to add Miracle Grow or Peter's to the tanks as I do
the fishless pond plant tanks outside. Those plants are going crazy. It's
a heck of a lot cheaper as well. :-) I got a huge 5lb container of MG
Bloom Booster with micronutroents at a close-out sale for $2.99 a few weeks
ago.

>>>>> Maybe slower release substrate fertilization may be of help for
>>>>> certain plants?
>>>>
>>>>I just don't have the time and energy to tear these two 55s down and
>>>>re-do
>>>>them. This is the busiest time of the year here.
>
> Take a look at:
> http://www.plantguild.com/html/spot_fertilization.html
> http://www.plantguild.com/html/substrate_retrofiter.html

I'll definitely will check this out tonight. Thanks.

........ Then I bough
>>some new and different plants to experiment with for a change-of-scenery.
>>Shortly afterward the black sooty algae reared it's ugly head and from
>>there
>>it's history.

> These were already cycled tanks (without plants). Perhaps biobugs are
> out competing the plants as well.

No, I meant the 10g were cycled. After the 55s ran for a few days I added
the plants, then the fancy goldfish.

>>Expensive supplements, Excel, serious gravel vacuuming, water
>>changes and more water changes, more lighting..... Oddly the water
>>wisteria
>>is thriving in a 10g and has wasted away in the 55s. A small ASword is
>>doing ok in a 10g but the ones in the 55s will be gone soon I'm sure.
>
> It might be damaged by such strong light with no real CO2.

It may be but only two 40 watt fluorescence over these 55s are pretty dim
and make diatoms grow - like the stuff in toilet tanks. :-( I have 2
compact 40s over each 10g and the some plants are doing better in them than
in the 55s.

>>Some that are failing are not covered in algae. Since I stopped feeding
>>the
>>plecs the algae tabs they did remove some of the wiry algae and this
>>evening
>>I noticed the plants are "cleaner" if that's the word that fits. After
>>all
>>is said and done I think I'll stick with the "tried and true" as you call
>>them. :-)
>
> _how_ they are failing might give you useful information- if you still
> care.

OK, they're edges have black algae that is not effected by Excel. Those
that had red tops or tips have lose their red color. Some rotted off at the
gravel line and or never rooted in at all. The swords show signs of
potassium deficiency. The sags are either rotting off at the bottom (crown)
and one is rotting away from the end of the leaves towards the center. Now,
while the above are near dead or obviously dying, the vals, crypts, anubias,
elodia, Java moss and hornwart are healthy and growing just fine. The
wisteria in the 10g with the platys is doing great. So I don't understand
what's going on here. It seems some of the plants are getting what they need
while the others are not. ?!?!?!?!!? As I said, I may experiment and add
some Miracle Grow to the 55s and see what happens. I don't believe it's
toxic to fish in small amounts. I often find fry in the plant prop' outdoor
tanks. Any suggestions are welcome.......
--
KL....
Aquariums since 1952.
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
*Note: There are two "Koi-Lo's" on the pond and aquaria groups.
~~~~ }<((((*> ~~~ }<{{{{(ö> ~~~~ }<((((({*>

[Jolly Fisherman]

On Mon, 19 Jun 2006 22:55:33 -0500, Köi-Lö <¤1¤ôx@ôÜ1Ô.ôôô> wrote:

>*Note: There are two "Koi-Lo's" on the pond and aquaria groups.
>
>"Jolly Fisherman" > wrote in message
...
>> On Fri, 16 Jun 2006 21:08:06 -0500, Köi-Lö <¤1¤ôx@ôÜ1Ô.ôôô> wrote:
>>
>> <snip>
>>>but all the new plants either failed or are failing despite the Seachem
>>>additives (micro-nutrients, Excel, iron etc) and extra light fixtures on
>>>the
>>>tanks.
>>
>> Perhaps its too much light?
>
>I can't possibly see how four 40w fluorescence can be too much light over a
>standard 55g tank. The old faithfuls improved with more light and
>nutrients.

I have a 55 gal tank with 2x65 watt compact fluorescent. It is far
too much for some of my more delicate low to mid light plants. I know
that sounds weird, as it's not really considered "a lot" of light.

>> <snip>
>>
>>>Well there is no way I can physically handle more vacuuming and partial
>>>water changes.
>>
>> I'm not suggesting that.
>>
>>> I've improved the lighting and all the supplements plus
>>>bought the plecos and otos. I feel there isn't anything more I can do at
>>>this time.
>>
>> It still seems the plants aren't getting exactly what they need-
>> missing nutrients (despite best efforts), too much light, etc. Are
>> the plants showing particular deficiencies or calcification?
>
>No calcification but the swords show signs of potassium deficiency. I add
>extra potassium but it doesn't help, so something else must be missing.

to the gravel? Swords need to absorb a lot of their nutrients from
their roots.

Again to say something that might seem weird about light- I have
swords that are a cross between the E. schlueteri & E. barthii. They
were absolutely devastated by obvious light damage from my mere 2.36
watts/gal without CO2. They are slowly recovering under partial dwarf
lily shade. I may be wrong but I think this light level is probably
border line when certain species start to require extra care and
perhaps CO2. But it depends on the species. Most swords are medium
light species which puts you about on target.

> The
>sags rotted away at their bases and the bases weren't covered in gravel.
>The water wisteria, ludwigia, rotalia, and gygrophlia got paler and paler
>until they all but faded away in the 55s.

I assume you mean they got yellow & glassy & disintegrated. This
symptom, usually called iron chlorosis, can come from over or under
fertilization, potassium deficiency, high carbonate or total hardness
or pH over 7. Also look at Iron levels & perhaps Magnesium in the
supplements.

>Meanwhile sharing the same two
>55s these are thriving; American vals, anubias, a few crypts, elodia,
>hornwart is making a comeback after a major dieoff last winter.

very hearty, easily adaptable plants

>The giant
>hairgrass is all but gone in one 55 and just hanging on in the other.
>They're partly covered in an ugly black algae.

Giant hairgrass needs a very rich substrate & fertilization & probably
higher light.

>>>> I'm not 100% sure Flourish is truly equivalent to CO2 fertilization.
>>>> At least I've been reading conflicting things.
>
>>>It's probably not but did perk up the plants, especially those that were
>>>doing ok to start with. Or maybe it was the micronutrients that made them
>>>a
>>>darker green. The frustrating thing is I ordered more of these products
>>>but
>>>then the effects wore off. I added extra potassium but that had no effect
>>>either. My sags are about dead and the Amazon swords look pretty shabby.
>
>> I believe the main ingredient of Excel is Polycycloglutaracetal an
>> isomeric form of glutaraldehyde, a very powerful disinfectant. Seachem
>> claims it is less reactive and more easily utilized by plants as a
>> carbon source. However one wonders if it has some algaecidal
>> properties. It is dangerous to aquatic life if overdosed. Frankly
>> I'm not excited about even handling water that has been treated with
>> Excel.
>
>I'm not exceeding the recommended amount.

No no. I'm just voicing a little suspicion about a "carbon
fertilizer" derived from a disinfectant that is closely related to
formaldehyde.

>I have been having very strange
>die-offs of healthy goldfish as I've mentioned here several times. I
>wonder........ healthy fish one minute and hours later dead on the bottom.
>:-| I never made note of how many hours after adding these supplements
>they died.

That IS suspicious. however I haven't heard of them being THAT toxic
before. I think normally you have to go above 5 or 6x the recommended
dosage to have problems.

>> The iron in flourish is bound to gluconate, a carbohydrate. Seachem
>> claims this is an additional carbon source. It would seem it is also
>> accessible to bacteria and converted to sugars & CO2.
>> Basically these types of nutrients are beneficial to plants, but it's
>> easy to miss key nutrients or for them no not be as effective or
>> exactly as advertised IMHO.
>
>Maybe I'll just start to add Miracle Grow or Peter's to the tanks as I do
>the fishless pond plant tanks outside. Those plants are going crazy. It's
>a heck of a lot cheaper as well. :-) I got a huge 5lb container of MG
>Bloom Booster with micronutroents at a close-out sale for $2.99 a few weeks
>ago.

Stick some in the grave around the plants. Planting chelated iron
supplements like osmacote, Lilipons brand pond lily tablets, Security
brand iron plus chelate may help. It depends on your own knowledge
and calculations about what is safe around GF.

It's funny how fast the price jumps up as soon as the word "Aquarium"
gets involved. It's like the word "wedding." But I digress.

>>>>>> Maybe slower release substrate fertilization may be of help for
>>>>>> certain plants?
>>>>>
>>>>>I just don't have the time and energy to tear these two 55s down and
>>>>>re-do
>>>>>them. This is the busiest time of the year here.
>>
>> Take a look at:
>> http://www.plantguild.com/html/spot_fertilization.html
>> http://www.plantguild.com/html/substrate_retrofiter.html
>
>I'll definitely will check this out tonight. Thanks.

I think this type of thing is very important for swords esp. When
there's nothing for the plants in the gravel, they depend on
absorption for nutrient uptake which is less efficient. Swords don't
do that very well.

>....... Then I bough
>>>some new and different plants to experiment with for a change-of-scenery.
>>>Shortly afterward the black sooty algae reared it's ugly head and from
>>>there
>>>it's history.
>
>> These were already cycled tanks (without plants). Perhaps biobugs are
>> out competing the plants as well.
>
>No, I meant the 10g were cycled. After the 55s ran for a few days I added
>the plants, then the fancy goldfish.

>>>Expensive supplements, Excel, serious gravel vacuuming, water
>>>changes and more water changes, more lighting..... Oddly the water
>>>wisteria
>>>is thriving in a 10g and has wasted away in the 55s. A small ASword is
>>>doing ok in a 10g but the ones in the 55s will be gone soon I'm sure.
>>
>> It might be damaged by such strong light with no real CO2.
>
>It may be but only two 40 watt fluorescence over these 55s are pretty dim
>and make diatoms grow - like the stuff in toilet tanks. :-(

I was thinking more like 3 instead of 4 (if possible) or maybe some
slight shading- else some plants are craving a little extra real CO2.

>I have 2
>compact 40s over each 10g and the some plants are doing better in them than
>in the 55s.

That's very interesting. Not my (limited) expereince with 40x2 grow
lights over a 10g. :(

>>>Some that are failing are not covered in algae. Since I stopped feeding
>>>the
>>>plecs the algae tabs they did remove some of the wiry algae and this
>>>evening
>>>I noticed the plants are "cleaner" if that's the word that fits. After
>>>all
>>>is said and done I think I'll stick with the "tried and true" as you call
>>>them. :-)
>>
>> _how_ they are failing might give you useful information- if you still
>> care.
>
>OK, they're edges have black algae that is not effected by Excel. Those
>that had red tops or tips have lose their red color. Some rotted off at the
>gravel line and or never rooted in at all. The swords show signs of
>potassium deficiency. The sags are either rotting off at the bottom (crown)
>and one is rotting away from the end of the leaves towards the center. Now,
>while the above are near dead or obviously dying, the vals, crypts, anubias,
>elodia, Java moss and hornwart are healthy and growing just fine. The
>wisteria in the 10g with the platys is doing great. So I don't understand
>what's going on here. It seems some of the plants are getting what they need
>while the others are not. ?!?!?!?!!? As I said, I may experiment and add
>some Miracle Grow to the 55s and see what happens. I don't believe it's
>toxic to fish in small amounts. I often find fry in the plant prop' outdoor
>tanks. Any suggestions are welcome.......

Of course algae is often related to plant health. I think I agree
this is more of a nutrient problem than an algae problem at this
point. If you just have ordinary plain, unfertilized gravel this may
be the problem. Some plants are better able to absorb the nutrients
in the water than others. Maybe that's why some are getting what they
need from your dosings while others are still suffering. Cutting back
on fish food right now and planting solid fertilizers might be another
avenue to try/add.

[Köi-Lö]

*Note: There are two "Koi-Lo's" on the pond and aquaria groups.

"Jolly Fisherman" > wrote in message
...
> On Mon, 19 Jun 2006 22:55:33 -0500, Köi-Lö <¤1¤ôx@ôÜ1Ô.ôôô> wrote:
>>I can't possibly see how four 40w fluorescence can be too much light over
>>a
>>standard 55g tank. The old faithfuls improved with more light and
>>nutrients.

> I have a 55 gal tank with 2x65 watt compact fluorescent. It is far
> too much for some of my more delicate low to mid light plants. I know
> that sounds weird, as it's not really considered "a lot" of light.

When I added the extra light and nutrients the low-light plants really
perked up and started to grow faster and they turned a darker green. Many
of the new plants were *not* low-light plants.

>>No calcification but the swords show signs of potassium deficiency. I add
>>extra potassium but it doesn't help, so something else must be missing.

> to the gravel? Swords need to absorb a lot of their nutrients from
> their roots.

That's not possible with granular Potash so I guess I'll have to let them
die. The small ones in the 10g are doing fine with it added to the water.
All the tanks have shallow gravel bottoms (around 1 1/4 to 1 1/2"). The
only difference is I don't vac the gravel in that 10 because of the baby
platys and Java moss on the bottom.

>> The
>>sags rotted away at their bases and the bases weren't covered in gravel.
>>The water wisteria, ludwigia, rotalia, and gygrophlia got paler and paler
>>until they all but faded away in the 55s.

> I assume you mean they got yellow & glassy & disintegrated. This
> symptom, usually called iron chlorosis, can come from over or under
> fertilization, potassium deficiency, high carbonate or total hardness
> or pH over 7. Also look at Iron levels & perhaps Magnesium in the
> supplements.

The Swords started to look that way after some weeks passed, the sags even
sooner. The swords also have the Potash deficiency look, except the small
ones in the 10g platy tank. The high-light plants lost their color and all
are yellowing except my old favorites and the hair-grass being killed by
short black algae. Most high-light plants never rooted but rotted away at
the bottom and became water-borne. I have no test kits to measure all the
levels you mention. The cost here to take samples to a lab would be
prohibitive. And yes, the water is very alkaline. It varies with the
seasons from 7.5 to 8.+. The hardness goes off my test kit at 300
(calcium). I add a heaping tablespoon of Magnesium (Epsom Salts) with each
water change. I know our water is deficient in it.

>>Meanwhile sharing the same two
>>55s these are thriving; American vals, anubias, a few crypts, elodia,
>>hornwart is making a comeback after a major dieoff last winter.
>
> very hearty, easily adaptable plants

They must be because I've had most of them for years. :-)

>>The giant
>>hairgrass is all but gone in one 55 and just hanging on in the other.
>>They're partly covered in an ugly black algae.

> Giant hairgrass needs a very rich substrate & fertilization & probably
> higher light.

A change now would be too late I'm sure as there is no way to get the black
crud algae off it. All that gravel vacuuming I did may have harmed the
plants by removing the mulm with elements they needed. That's only a guess.
It sure made little difference in the "black-red" algae problem in the long
run. All the vacuuming and added lights and nutrients did was slow it to a
near stop while the other plants temporarily took off. Now it's growing and
spreading slowly again, probably because so many of the new plants have
stopped competing as they fade away.

......... It is dangerous to aquatic life if overdosed. Frankly
>>> I'm not excited about even handling water that has been treated with
>>> Excel.

>>I'm not exceeding the recommended amount.

> No no. I'm just voicing a little suspicion about a "carbon
> fertilizer" derived from a disinfectant that is closely related to
> formaldehyde.

For all I know it may be totally useless and it was the added light and
mirconutrients that slowed the black-red algae and gave all the plants a
temporary boost. It sure smells funny.

>>I have been having very strange
>>die-offs of healthy goldfish as I've mentioned here several times. I
>>wonder........ healthy fish one minute and hours later dead on the
>>bottom.
>>:-| I never made note of how many hours after adding these supplements
>>they died.

> That IS suspicious. however I haven't heard of them being THAT toxic
> before. I think normally you have to go above 5 or 6x the recommended
> dosage to have problems.

I never did that, but these mysterious deaths have me bugged as none of the
outside fish are dying. All I add to the outside tanks (other than the
plant tanks) is Magnesium and Potash as there are plants in the fish tanks.
There are no symptoms except the goldfish starts to act lethargic, rests on
the bottom and dies - in hours!

>>Maybe I'll just start to add Miracle Grow or Peter's to the tanks as I do
>>the fishless pond plant tanks outside. Those plants are going crazy.
>>It's
>>a heck of a lot cheaper as well. :-) I got a huge 5lb container of MG
>>Bloom Booster with micronutroents at a close-out sale for $2.99 a few
>>weeks
>>ago.

> Stick some in the grave around the plants. Planting chelated iron
> supplements like osmacote, Lilipons brand pond lily tablets, Security
> brand iron plus chelate may help. It depends on your own knowledge
> and calculations about what is safe around GF.
>
> It's funny how fast the price jumps up as soon as the word "Aquarium"
> gets involved. It's like the word "wedding." But I digress.

I worked for a veterinarian at one time. The antibiotic capsule he sold the
farmers for 50¢ he sold the dog and cat owners for $2.50. Vaccines were
the same. It's a real rip-off as the pet owners are supplementing the
farmers. I'm sure the fertilizer industry is the same.

>>> Take a look at:
>>> http://www.plantguild.com/html/spot_fertilization.html
>>> http://www.plantguild.com/html/substrate_retrofiter.html
>>
>>I'll definitely will check this out tonight. Thanks.
>
> I think this type of thing is very important for swords esp. When
> there's nothing for the plants in the gravel, they depend on
> absorption for nutrient uptake which is less efficient. Swords don't
> do that very well.

I think I still have some Lilipons tabs in the cabinet. I got them when a
shop was selling out all their pond stuff - for something like $1 a
container. ;-)

> I was thinking more like 3 instead of 4 (if possible) or maybe some
> slight shading- else some plants are craving a little extra real CO2.
>
>>I have 2
>>compact 40s over each 10g and the some plants are doing better in them
>>than
>>in the 55s.

> That's very interesting. Not my (limited) expereince with 40x2 grow
> lights over a 10g. :(

I don't use "grow lights" as they're expensive and I don't like the bluish
color. They're those new compact fluorescent lights for lamps.

>>> _how_ they are failing might give you useful information- if you still
>>> care.

>>OK, they're edges have black algae that is not effected by Excel. Those
>>that had red tops or tips have lose their red color. Some rotted off at
>>the
>>gravel line and or never rooted in at all. The swords show signs of
>>potassium deficiency. The sags are either rotting off at the bottom
>>(crown)
>>and one is rotting away from the end of the leaves towards the center.
>>Now,
>>while the above are near dead or obviously dying, the vals, crypts,
>>anubias,
>>elodia, Java moss and hornwart are healthy and growing just fine. The
>>wisteria in the 10g with the platys is doing great. So I don't understand
>>what's going on here. It seems some of the plants are getting what they
>>need
>>while the others are not. ?!?!?!?!!? As I said, I may experiment and add
>>some Miracle Grow to the 55s and see what happens. I don't believe it's
>>toxic to fish in small amounts. I often find fry in the plant prop'
>>outdoor
>>tanks. Any suggestions are welcome.......

> Of course algae is often related to plant health. I think I agree
> this is more of a nutrient problem than an algae problem at this
> point. If you just have ordinary plain, unfertilized gravel this may
> be the problem. Some plants are better able to absorb the nutrients
> in the water than others. Maybe that's why some are getting what they
> need from your dosings while others are still suffering. Cutting back
> on fish food right now and planting solid fertilizers might be another
> avenue to try/add.

Thanks, I'm going to look for those old Lilipon tabs....... :-)
--
KL....
Frugal ponding since 1995.
Aquariums since 1952.
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
*Note: There are two "Koi-Lo's" on the
pond and aquaria groups.
~~~~ }<((((*> ~~~ }<{{{{(ö> ~~~~ }<((((({*>

[Jolly Fisherman]

The plantguild PMDD mix, for example, has the potassium, magnesium, &
trace elements that can be made into pellets for the substrate. They
might also have a recipe for make potash pellets. Although they'd
probably recommend you buy one of their binding or extending powders.
I'm impressed at how brilliantly simple and inexpensive to hand
manufacture the Spot Fertilizing & power reactors seem to be. I'm
just starting with the power reactor, which is very efficient. I
don't know yet how effective or a PITA the fertilizer tool is. All I
know is I didn't want to waste the time trying to copy them. Using
them seems like enough of a PITA.

I guess by now it's moot but I checked another of my books. It says
Black Brush Algae belongs to the red algae group. It is carried in by
plants from Southeast Asia. It thrives in nitrate rich, hard,
alkaline water and with CO2 deficiency. It mainly attacks unhealthy
plants. It claims it is so tenacious that neither suction nor removal
by hand is possible without damaging plants. It recommends
Fertilization with iron & CO2, filtration through peat (to soften the
water & lower pH), replacing old fluorescent tubes & introducing algae
eaters.

So I wonder if your multiple aquaclears and hard, alkaline water are
partially to blame, along with a nutrient deficiency of these new
plants. I know you have taken steps to improve water chemistry &
supplementation. I guess adding driftwood to also alter chemistry is
not sufficient or desirable. Frankly I think DIY yeast CO2 is a PITA
& I agree that CO2 cylinders is prohibitive. I'd pick the brains of
someone over at plantguild for kicks. Even if you don't buy anything
from them, at least you have those Lilipon tabs. :-)

[Jolly Fisherman]

On Wed, 21 Jun 2006 02:53:53 GMT, Jolly Fisherman >
wrote:


>I guess by now it's moot but I checked another of my books. It says
>Black Brush Algae belongs to the red algae group. It is carried in by

It also suggests that while you should add liquid fertilizers after
every water change it should not be done at the same time as
precipitating water conditioners. Instead one should wait a day or
two before adding the dosing. (if that helps)

[Richard Sexton]

In my tanks Excel is the kiss of death on algae of any kind. It's the only
thing I know of that can be called a safe algicide and not can't be called
an algicide at all according to the US govt.

It's not as good as co2 but it's impressively better than without. Expensive
and worth twice that if you're serious.

--
Need Mercedes parts? http://parts.mbz.org
Richard Sexton | Mercedes stuff: http://mbz.org
1970 280SE, 72 280SE | Home pages: http://rs79.vrx.net
633CSi 250SE/C 300SD | http://aquaria.net http://killi.net

[Koi-Lo]

*Note: There are several *Koi-Lo's* on the pond and aquaria groups.

"Jolly Fisherman" > wrote in message
...

> I guess by now it's moot but I checked another of my books. It says
> Black Brush Algae belongs to the red algae group. It is carried in by
> plants from Southeast Asia. It thrives in nitrate rich, hard,
> alkaline water and with CO2 deficiency. It mainly attacks unhealthy
> plants. It claims it is so tenacious that neither suction nor removal
> by hand is possible without damaging plants. It recommends
> Fertilization with iron & CO2, filtration through peat (to soften the
> water & lower pH), replacing old fluorescent tubes & introducing algae
> eaters.

That about says it all except with all the water changes and gravel
vacuuming I was doing I don't think the water was overly rich in nitrates
and phosphates. The rest sure does apply. :-(

> So I wonder if your multiple aquaclears and hard, alkaline water are
> partially to blame, along with a nutrient deficiency of these new
> plants. I know you have taken steps to improve water chemistry &
> supplementation. I guess adding driftwood to also alter chemistry is
> not sufficient or desirable.

I have a piece of driftwood in both 55s for the plecos. I talked it over
with my husband and decided to just stick with the plants that thrive under
our conditions and have for years. But you sure have been helpful
nonetheless. :-)

Frankly I think DIY yeast CO2 is a PITA
> & I agree that CO2 cylinders is prohibitive. I'd pick the brains of
> someone over at plantguild for kicks. Even if you don't buy anything
> from them, at least you have those Lilipon tabs. :-)

--
KL....
Aquariums since 1952.
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
~~~~ }<((((*> ~~~ }<{{{{(ö> ~~~~ }<((((({*>

[Koi-Lo]

*Note: There are two "Koi-Lo's" on the pond and aquaria groups.

"Jolly Fisherman" > wrote in message
...
> It also suggests that while you should add liquid fertilizers after
> every water change it should not be done at the same time as
> precipitating water conditioners. Instead one should wait a day or
> two before adding the dosing. (if that helps)
=======================
I'm not sure I know what "at same time as precipitating water conditioners"
means. I usually add them within an hour of a water change, then the Excel
every day - occasionally I forget and skip a day.
--
KL....
Aquariums since 1952.
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
~~~~ }<((((*> ~~~ }<{{{{(ö> ~~~~ }<((((({*>

[Koi-Lo]

*Note: There are two "Koi-Lo's" on the pond and aquaria groups.

"Richard Sexton" > wrote in message
...
> In my tanks Excel is the kiss of death on algae of any kind. It's the only
> thing I know of that can be called a safe algicide and not can't be called
> an algicide at all according to the US govt.
>
> It's not as good as co2 but it's impressively better than without.
> Expensive
> and worth twice that if you're serious.
=======================
Are you using it at the recommended rate or above? I'm using it as
recommended.
--
KL....
Aquariums since 1952.
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
~~~~ }<((((*> ~~~ }<{{{{(ö> ~~~~ }<((((({*>

[dc]

"Koi-Lo" <¤?¤@ö½.Õ..Õ¢> wrote in
:

> I'm not sure I know what "at same time as precipitating water
> conditioners" means. I usually add them within an hour of a water
> change, then the Excel every day - occasionally I forget and skip a
> day.

He means water conditioners that address things like heavy metals. I'm not
sure precipitate is the proper term to use as these metals are not actually
removed from the water solution as a solid but simply bonded to other
soluble chemicals into a non-toxic form. Some people believe these kinds
of water conditioners may remove trace elements beneficial to plants, which
they may.

I suspect even if they did the removal would not be complete when compared
to the amount you are adding to the water with fertilization. If there is
any waste your plants will still benefit from what is available during that
time rather than having to wait 48 hours for anything to be available if
you follow Jolly's recommendations.

I use Prime as a water conditioner; it is intended to be used in
conjunction with plant fertilizers. I don't know its specific effects on
the nutrients I add to my water, but my dosing schedule is complex so
whatever may be neutralized initially is quickly replenished anyway.

[Koi-Lo]

*Note: There are two "Koi-Lo's" on the pond and aquaria groups.

"dc" > wrote in message
.. .
> "Koi-Lo" <¤?¤@ö½.Õ..Õ¢> wrote in
> :
>
>> I'm not sure I know what "at same time as precipitating water
>> conditioners" means. I usually add them within an hour of a water
>> change, then the Excel every day - occasionally I forget and skip a
>> day.
>
> He means water conditioners that address things like heavy metals. I'm
> not
> sure precipitate is the proper term to use as these metals are not
> actually
> removed from the water solution as a solid but simply bonded to other
> soluble chemicals into a non-toxic form. Some people believe these kinds
> of water conditioners may remove trace elements beneficial to plants,
> which
> they may.

I only use plain Sodium Thiosulfate so no problem there. I buy the crystals
and make a gallon at a time.

> I suspect even if they did the removal would not be complete when compared
> to the amount you are adding to the water with fertilization. If there is
> any waste your plants will still benefit from what is available during
> that
> time rather than having to wait 48 hours for anything to be available if
> you follow Jolly's recommendations.

I'll keep adding it an hour or so after the water changes. It's kind of a
habit now and so I wont forget. It's the last thing I do after putting
everything away for another 10 days to 2 weeks.

> I use Prime as a water conditioner; it is intended to be used in
> conjunction with plant fertilizers. I don't know its specific effects on
> the nutrients I add to my water, but my dosing schedule is complex so
> whatever may be neutralized initially is quickly replenished anyway.

--
KL....
Frugal ponding since 1995.
Aquariums since 1952.
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
*Note: There are two "Koi-Lo's" on the pond and aquaria groups.
~~~~ }<((((*> ~~~ }<{{{{(ö> ~~~~ }<((((({*>

[stefenblk]

I might just give up and keep those grow without all the expensive supplements - in Scenery, hornwart, anubia, elodia, java moss and some slow-growing old crypt I have for many years. I think I just like to see some new or different plant tanks.