Treating water during changes

[David C. Stone]

I was in one of the large fish stores yesterday, watching a video of the
python system. I was curious about the fact that this requires you to
add dechlorinator to the tank, rather than the water you're adding
before it goes in.

Couple of questions for those who use such systems:

- do you determine the amount of dechlorinator to add from the volume
going in to the tank, or the total tank volume?

- do the fish seem to show any signs of stress with the chlorine in the
in-coming water while filling?

- is the previous concern something to worry about when doing large
water changes (say up to 50%)?

[2pods]

David C. Stone" > wrote in message
...
>I was in one of the large fish stores yesterday, watching a video of the
> python system. I was curious about the fact that this requires you to
> add dechlorinator to the tank, rather than the water you're adding
> before it goes in.
>
> Couple of questions for those who use such systems:
>
> - do you determine the amount of dechlorinator to add from the volume
> going in to the tank, or the total tank volume?
>

I add declor for the amount of water I'm replacing


> - do the fish seem to show any signs of stress with the chlorine in the
> in-coming water while filling?
>

I add the dechlor just before I start filling the tank

> - is the previous concern something to worry about when doing large
> water changes (say up to 50%)?

No more than any "normal" effects of 50% water changes e.g pH going up etc

Peter

[Richard]

I don't use one but from previous conversations here (and good sense) you
only need to treat the "replacement" water not the whole volume.... as it is
only the replacement water that has chlorine in it.



"David C. Stone" > wrote in message
...
> I was in one of the large fish stores yesterday, watching a video of the
> python system. I was curious about the fact that this requires you to
> add dechlorinator to the tank, rather than the water you're adding
> before it goes in.
>
> Couple of questions for those who use such systems:
>
> - do you determine the amount of dechlorinator to add from the volume
> going in to the tank, or the total tank volume?
>
> - do the fish seem to show any signs of stress with the chlorine in the
> in-coming water while filling?
>
> - is the previous concern something to worry about when doing large
> water changes (say up to 50%)?

[NetMax]

"David C. Stone" > wrote in message
...
>I was in one of the large fish stores yesterday, watching a video of the
> python system. I was curious about the fact that this requires you to
> add dechlorinator to the tank, rather than the water you're adding
> before it goes in.
>
> Couple of questions for those who use such systems:
>
> - do you determine the amount of dechlorinator to add from the volume
> going in to the tank, or the total tank volume?

Volume going in.

> - do the fish seem to show any signs of stress with the chlorine in the
> in-coming water while filling?

Never seen any. Note that chloramine will release some ammonia, so this is
a little different.

> - is the previous concern something to worry about when doing large
> water changes (say up to 50%)?

The dechlor takes about 10 minutes (depends on your level of turbulence), so
as long as you don't dump the 50% in very quickly, it should be fine.
--
www.NetMax.tk

[Daniel Morrow]

Mid posted.


"David C. Stone" > wrote in message
...
> I was in one of the large fish stores yesterday, watching a video of the
> python system. I was curious about the fact that this requires you to
> add dechlorinator to the tank, rather than the water you're adding
> before it goes in.
>
> Couple of questions for those who use such systems:
>
> - do you determine the amount of dechlorinator to add from the volume
> going in to the tank, or the total tank volume?


You determine the amount of dechlorinator to add from the volume going into
the tank. I have heard that today's dechlorinators are 50 times more
powerful than they need to be and that they "biodegrade" or become inactive
after 20 or so minutes of being in dechlorinated water. That is not a quote
but I think it is correct or is at least mostly correct.


>
> - do the fish seem to show any signs of stress with the chlorine in the
> in-coming water while filling?

No, in fact they seem to love to swim in it.


>
> - is the previous concern something to worry about when doing large
> water changes (say up to 50%)?

Never in my experience and I suspect the majority of others here if not all
of them, have the same opinions.

[Dick]

On Fri, 07 Oct 2005 07:45:13 -0400, "David C. Stone"
> wrote:

>I was in one of the large fish stores yesterday, watching a video of the
>python system. I was curious about the fact that this requires you to
>add dechlorinator to the tank, rather than the water you're adding
>before it goes in.
>
>Couple of questions for those who use such systems:
>
>- do you determine the amount of dechlorinator to add from the volume
> going in to the tank, or the total tank volume?
>
>- do the fish seem to show any signs of stress with the chlorine in the
> in-coming water while filling?
>
>- is the previous concern something to worry about when doing large
> water changes (say up to 50%)?

I use a Python to make 20% water changes. I never add dechlorinator.
I mentioned this to a friend who had been using dechlorinator and she
stopped adding it. Our water does have chlorination. I don't know
how muc, but I suspect it is the legal minimum.

Two factors involved: partial change means the new water has the
chlorination diluted to a tolerable level; we are not all chemists who
enjoy adding stuff to the water.

I fried half a doze fish, some I really liked, by adding too much
acid. The municipal water is professionally adjusted and apparently
is more consistent than my adjustments. So, consider just going with
the flow, the community water flow that is.

dick

[David C. Stone]

In article >, Dick
> wrote:

[snip]
>
> Two factors involved: partial change means the new water has the
> chlorination diluted to a tolerable level; we are not all chemists who
> enjoy adding stuff to the water.

Well, I'm a chemist, and I don't enjoy adding stuff to the water,
either!

Thanks to all for the feedback - should make the routine tank
maintenance a lot easier.

[default]

Dick wrote:
> On Fri, 07 Oct 2005 07:45:13 -0400, "David C. Stone"
> > wrote:

> I use a Python to make 20% water changes. I never add dechlorinator.
> I mentioned this to a friend who had been using dechlorinator and she
> stopped adding it. Our water does have chlorination. I don't know
> how muc, but I suspect it is the legal minimum.
>
> Two factors involved: partial change means the new water has the
> chlorination diluted to a tolerable level; we are not all chemists who
> enjoy adding stuff to the water.
>
> I fried half a doze fish, some I really liked, by adding too much
> acid. The municipal water is professionally adjusted and apparently
> is more consistent than my adjustments. So, consider just going with
> the flow, the community water flow that is.
>
> dick


Dick, I've read this before and I'm concerned. Because you dumped
too much acid in one time and killed the fish, just isn't a very sound
reason for not adding dechlorinator. The two substances differ greatly
in toxicity and purpose.

Many people will recommend caution or downright avoiding pH changing
"chemicals" for the very reason that got you in trouble. I have never
heard one bit of even ancidotal evidence about harm from a
dechlorinator. And just because the fish aren't dying, or turning
shades of red, or gasping for air at the surface, does not mean that
they're ok. It means the damage from chlorine in their enclosed
environment isn't great enough for them to visibly react to. I betcha
dimes to dollars though that they are suffering from at least pain, if
not damage to their gills tissue.

One teaspoon of dechlor in a 5 gallon bucket isn't that hard to do my
friend. I think you have very little to be afraid of.

Steve

[Daniel Morrow]

Bottom posted.


"default" > wrote in message
oups.com...
>
> Dick wrote:
> > On Fri, 07 Oct 2005 07:45:13 -0400, "David C. Stone"
> > > wrote:
>
> > I use a Python to make 20% water changes. I never add dechlorinator.
> > I mentioned this to a friend who had been using dechlorinator and she
> > stopped adding it. Our water does have chlorination. I don't know
> > how muc, but I suspect it is the legal minimum.
> >
> > Two factors involved: partial change means the new water has the
> > chlorination diluted to a tolerable level; we are not all chemists who
> > enjoy adding stuff to the water.
> >
> > I fried half a doze fish, some I really liked, by adding too much
> > acid. The municipal water is professionally adjusted and apparently
> > is more consistent than my adjustments. So, consider just going with
> > the flow, the community water flow that is.
> >
> > dick
>
>
> Dick, I've read this before and I'm concerned. Because you dumped
> too much acid in one time and killed the fish, just isn't a very sound
> reason for not adding dechlorinator. The two substances differ greatly
> in toxicity and purpose.
>
> Many people will recommend caution or downright avoiding pH changing
> "chemicals" for the very reason that got you in trouble. I have never
> heard one bit of even ancidotal evidence about harm from a
> dechlorinator. And just because the fish aren't dying, or turning
> shades of red, or gasping for air at the surface, does not mean that
> they're ok. It means the damage from chlorine in their enclosed
> environment isn't great enough for them to visibly react to. I betcha
> dimes to dollars though that they are suffering from at least pain, if
> not damage to their gills tissue.
>
> One teaspoon of dechlor in a 5 gallon bucket isn't that hard to do my
> friend. I think you have very little to be afraid of.
>
> Steve
>

You have a good pint or two but about dick talking about the acid experience
he means experimenting with chemicals can cause great damage, although I
totally agree with you that dechlorinator is harmless. I have heard/read
others here talking about how they don't like to use dechlorinator because
of how dick was talking about how the chlorine gets diluted out when small
but often water changes are made. I always use dechlorinator because of the
reason you suggested about possibly the fish feeling pain from the residual
chlorine though. Good luck and later!

[Dick]

On 8 Oct 2005 10:04:25 -0700, "default" >
wrote:

>
>Dick wrote:
>> On Fri, 07 Oct 2005 07:45:13 -0400, "David C. Stone"
>> > wrote:
>
>> I use a Python to make 20% water changes. I never add dechlorinator.
>> I mentioned this to a friend who had been using dechlorinator and she
>> stopped adding it. Our water does have chlorination. I don't know
>> how muc, but I suspect it is the legal minimum.
>>
>> Two factors involved: partial change means the new water has the
>> chlorination diluted to a tolerable level; we are not all chemists who
>> enjoy adding stuff to the water.
>>
>> I fried half a doze fish, some I really liked, by adding too much
>> acid. The municipal water is professionally adjusted and apparently
>> is more consistent than my adjustments. So, consider just going with
>> the flow, the community water flow that is.
>>
>> dick
>
>
>Dick, I've read this before and I'm concerned. Because you dumped
>too much acid in one time and killed the fish, just isn't a very sound
>reason for not adding dechlorinator. The two substances differ greatly
>in toxicity and purpose.
>
>Many people will recommend caution or downright avoiding pH changing
>"chemicals" for the very reason that got you in trouble. I have never
>heard one bit of even ancidotal evidence about harm from a
>dechlorinator. And just because the fish aren't dying, or turning
>shades of red, or gasping for air at the surface, does not mean that
>they're ok. It means the damage from chlorine in their enclosed
>environment isn't great enough for them to visibly react to. I betcha
>dimes to dollars though that they are suffering from at least pain, if
>not damage to their gills tissue.
>
>One teaspoon of dechlor in a 5 gallon bucket isn't that hard to do my
>friend. I think you have very little to be afraid of.
>
>Steve

It is not buckets, but Pythons. I prefer to not make the adjustment,
it is just one more thing to do. I have to get all my supplies and
fish via the internet, so I KISS the hobby (keep it simple sir).

As to pain in fish, there have been numerous discussions in this group
as to whether fish feel pain. When I fried my fish I had no trouble
"feeling their pain". I heard no "screams," but I saw red eyes and
strange motions and dead bodies. I see no reason to play "chemist"
without a good reason. When the Python is filling the tank, the fish
do not avoid the fresh water. If they did I would wonder if they were
avoiding pain.

What makes this group interesting is the different points of view. I
take a "minimalist's" view of everything, I do what is needed, no
more, thus no CO2, charcoal, air, plant food, I feed only flake food
and use the low light hoods that came with the tanks. I don't even
vacuum the gravel. I am content with the results.

dick

[Dick]

Whoops, I was talking about pH adjustment, not dechlorination. The
discussion must have seemed weird to those that knew what they were
talking about. I still add no chemicals, but the rest of my
discussion I was thinking pH, not chlorination. Can you imagine
turning me loose with chemicals adding one chemical when I meant to
add another?

dick

On 8 Oct 2005 10:04:25 -0700, "default" >
wrote:

>
>Dick wrote:
>> On Fri, 07 Oct 2005 07:45:13 -0400, "David C. Stone"
>> > wrote:
>
>> I use a Python to make 20% water changes. I never add dechlorinator.
>> I mentioned this to a friend who had been using dechlorinator and she
>> stopped adding it. Our water does have chlorination. I don't know
>> how muc, but I suspect it is the legal minimum.
>>
>> Two factors involved: partial change means the new water has the
>> chlorination diluted to a tolerable level; we are not all chemists who
>> enjoy adding stuff to the water.
>>
>> I fried half a doze fish, some I really liked, by adding too much
>> acid. The municipal water is professionally adjusted and apparently
>> is more consistent than my adjustments. So, consider just going with
>> the flow, the community water flow that is.
>>
>> dick
>
>
>Dick, I've read this before and I'm concerned. Because you dumped
>too much acid in one time and killed the fish, just isn't a very sound
>reason for not adding dechlorinator. The two substances differ greatly
>in toxicity and purpose.
>
>Many people will recommend caution or downright avoiding pH changing
>"chemicals" for the very reason that got you in trouble. I have never
>heard one bit of even ancidotal evidence about harm from a
>dechlorinator. And just because the fish aren't dying, or turning
>shades of red, or gasping for air at the surface, does not mean that
>they're ok. It means the damage from chlorine in their enclosed
>environment isn't great enough for them to visibly react to. I betcha
>dimes to dollars though that they are suffering from at least pain, if
>not damage to their gills tissue.
>
>One teaspoon of dechlor in a 5 gallon bucket isn't that hard to do my
>friend. I think you have very little to be afraid of.
>
>Steve

[default]

Dick wrote:
> Whoops, I was talking about pH adjustment, not dechlorination. The
> discussion must have seemed weird to those that knew what they were
> talking about. I still add no chemicals, but the rest of my
> discussion I was thinking pH, not chlorination. Can you imagine
> turning me loose with chemicals adding one chemical when I meant to
> add another?
>
> dick


So, you use dechlorinator during water changes but don't dump acid in
your tank anymore to attemp pH adjustments? I think that is sound
advice for most all of us.

steve

[Justice]

David C. Stone wrote:
> I was in one of the large fish stores yesterday, watching a video of the
> python system. I was curious about the fact that this requires you to
> add dechlorinator to the tank, rather than the water you're adding
> before it goes in.
>
> Couple of questions for those who use such systems:
>
> - do you determine the amount of to add from the volume
> going in to the tank, or the total tank volume?
>
> - do the fish seem to show any signs of stress with the chlorine in the
> in-coming water while filling?
>
> - is the previous concern something to worry about when doing large
> water changes (say up to 50%)?
Is there any problems with adding too much dechlorinator to the new
water? The bottle I use does not drip out well, it will some times shoot
out or not even drip. so my mesurements are not too well. my test kits
are all good. TIA

[Justice]

Dick wrote:
> On 8 Oct 2005 10:04:25 -0700, "default" >
> wrote:
>
>
>>Dick wrote:
>>
>>>On Fri, 07 Oct 2005 07:45:13 -0400, "David C. Stone"
> wrote:
>>
>>>I use a Python to make 20% water changes. I never add dechlorinator.
>>>I mentioned this to a friend who had been using dechlorinator and she
>>>stopped adding it. Our water does have chlorination. I don't know
>>>how muc, but I suspect it is the legal minimum.
>>>
>>>Two factors involved: partial change means the new water has the
>>>chlorination diluted to a tolerable level; we are not all chemists who
>>>enjoy adding stuff to the water.
>>>
>>>I fried half a doze fish, some I really liked, by adding too much
>>>acid. The municipal water is professionally adjusted and apparently
>>>is more consistent than my adjustments. So, consider just going with
>>>the flow, the community water flow that is.
>>>
>>>dick
>>
>>
>>Dick, I've read this before and I'm concerned. Because you dumped
>>too much acid in one time and killed the fish, just isn't a very sound
>>reason for not adding dechlorinator. The two substances differ greatly
>>in toxicity and purpose.
>>
>>Many people will recommend caution or downright avoiding pH changing
>>"chemicals" for the very reason that got you in trouble. I have never
>>heard one bit of even ancidotal evidence about harm from a
>>dechlorinator. And just because the fish aren't dying, or turning
>>shades of red, or gasping for air at the surface, does not mean that
>>they're ok. It means the damage from chlorine in their enclosed
>>environment isn't great enough for them to visibly react to. I betcha
>>dimes to dollars though that they are suffering from at least pain, if
>>not damage to their gills tissue.
>>
>>One teaspoon of dechlor in a 5 gallon bucket isn't that hard to do my
>>friend. I think you have very little to be afraid of.
>>
>>Steve
>
>
> It is not buckets, but Pythons. I prefer to not make the adjustment,
> it is just one more thing to do. I have to get all my supplies and
> fish via the internet, so I KISS the hobby (keep it simple sir).
>
> As to pain in fish, there have been numerous discussions in this group
> as to whether fish feel pain. When I fried my fish I had no trouble
> "feeling their pain". I heard no "screams," but I saw red eyes and
> strange motions and dead bodies. I see no reason to play "chemist"
> without a good reason. When the Python is filling the tank, the fish
> do not avoid the fresh water. If they did I would wonder if they were
> avoiding pain.
>
> What makes this group interesting is the different points of view.

That is what makes this group good, if everyone was saying the same
thing about everything i would not bother to read it. You an try to
gather fact from BS and draw you own conclution or thoughts. Keep up the
good work group ;)

I
> take a "minimalist's" view of everything, I do what is needed, no
> more, thus no CO2, charcoal, air, plant food, I feed only flake food
> and use the low light hoods that came with the tanks. I don't even
> vacuum the gravel. I am content with the results.
>
> dick

[Daniel Morrow]

Bottom posted.


"Justice" > wrote in message
news:P8c2f.19573$ir4.5960@edtnps90...
> David C. Stone wrote:
> > I was in one of the large fish stores yesterday, watching a video of the
> > python system. I was curious about the fact that this requires you to
> > add dechlorinator to the tank, rather than the water you're adding
> > before it goes in.
> >
> > Couple of questions for those who use such systems:
> >
> > - do you determine the amount of to add from the volume
> > going in to the tank, or the total tank volume?
> >
> > - do the fish seem to show any signs of stress with the chlorine in the
> > in-coming water while filling?
> >
> > - is the previous concern something to worry about when doing large
> > water changes (say up to 50%)?
> Is there any problems with adding too much dechlorinator to the new
> water? The bottle I use does not drip out well, it will some times shoot
> out or not even drip. so my mesurements are not too well. my test kits
> are all good. TIA

There is no reasonable way to overdose on dechlorinator. I myself prefer
tetra aquasafe and I just eyeball how much I need. The measuring lid
measures 5 ml (1 teaspoon) at a time so I need to just estimate how much to
use. Some users here would say that without reasonableness you could turn
your tank into a chemical soup if you don't use reason and "overdose" on
dechlorinator. Overall that's best to avoid. Good luck and later!

[NetMax]

"Justice" > wrote in message
news:P8c2f.19573$ir4.5960@edtnps90...
> David C. Stone wrote:
>> I was in one of the large fish stores yesterday, watching a video of the
>> python system. I was curious about the fact that this requires you to
>> add dechlorinator to the tank, rather than the water you're adding before
>> it goes in.
>>
>> Couple of questions for those who use such systems:
>>
>> - do you determine the amount of to add from the volume
>> going in to the tank, or the total tank volume?
>>
>> - do the fish seem to show any signs of stress with the chlorine in the
>> in-coming water while filling?
>>
>> - is the previous concern something to worry about when doing large
>> water changes (say up to 50%)?
> Is there any problems with adding too much dechlorinator to the new water?
> The bottle I use does not drip out well, it will some times shoot out or
> not even drip. so my mesurements are not too well. my test kits are all
> good. TIA

I was told that Hagen did tests to x10 the dosage and found no ill effects.
In any case, you could pour into a container first (test tube from your
water test kit) before you put it into the water.
--
www.NetMax.tk

[fish lover]

On Fri, 07 Oct 2005 07:45:13 -0400, "David C. Stone"
> wrote:

>I was in one of the large fish stores yesterday, watching a video of the
>python system. I was curious about the fact that this requires you to
>add dechlorinator to the tank, rather than the water you're adding
>before it goes in.
>
>Couple of questions for those who use such systems:
>
>- do you determine the amount of dechlorinator to add from the volume
> going in to the tank, or the total tank volume?
>
>- do the fish seem to show any signs of stress with the chlorine in the
> in-coming water while filling?
>
>- is the previous concern something to worry about when doing large
> water changes (say up to 50%)?

Here is a better way:
Buy a plastic container (about $5 at WalMart) that can hold about 40%
or more water of you tank plus a pump (about $15 from the Web) and few
feet of clear plastic tube (avout $3 at home depo for 10 feet). Make
sure the pump can push water up to the hight of your tank.

Use the python to connect to your tap and fill the container, treat
the water to whatever you like. Then use the python to drain 40% of
your fish tank. After that, use the pump to pump the treated water
back to your tank.

The time you used to drain the tank should be enough for the water
treatment to work. If you like, you can also leave the water in the
plastic container over night too.

I use this method all the time and it works fine for about $25 cost.
You can also store the pump and python in the coantiner after water
change.

[Fishman]

Most of the dechlorinator solutions out there are harmless when overdosed in
the tank.

I have several of those plastic infant medicine dispensers that I use. The
ones that have a graduated tube and a spoon like shape on the open end.
They're great for quickly measuring out liquid medications or treatment
solutions. Even measureing out dry powders is easy! You can find them in
nearly every pharmacy or local drug store.

Justin


"Justice" > wrote in message
news:P8c2f.19573$ir4.5960@edtnps90...
> David C. Stone wrote:
> > I was in one of the large fish stores yesterday, watching a video of the
> > python system. I was curious about the fact that this requires you to
> > add dechlorinator to the tank, rather than the water you're adding
> > before it goes in.
> >
> > Couple of questions for those who use such systems:
> >
> > - do you determine the amount of to add from the volume
> > going in to the tank, or the total tank volume?
> >
> > - do the fish seem to show any signs of stress with the chlorine in the
> > in-coming water while filling?
> >
> > - is the previous concern something to worry about when doing large
> > water changes (say up to 50%)?
> Is there any problems with adding too much dechlorinator to the new
> water? The bottle I use does not drip out well, it will some times shoot
> out or not even drip. so my mesurements are not too well. my test kits
> are all good. TIA

[Dick]

On 9 Oct 2005 09:29:41 -0700, "default" >
wrote:

>
>Dick wrote:
>> Whoops, I was talking about pH adjustment, not dechlorination. The
>> discussion must have seemed weird to those that knew what they were
>> talking about. I still add no chemicals, but the rest of my
>> discussion I was thinking pH, not chlorination. Can you imagine
>> turning me loose with chemicals adding one chemical when I meant to
>> add another?
>>
>> dick
>
>
>So, you use dechlorinator during water changes but don't dump acid in
>your tank anymore to attemp pH adjustments? I think that is sound
>advice for most all of us.
>
>steve

Nope, I use neither, but one size does not fit all. It is my
understanding some communities use more chlorine than mine does.
Also, pH varies widely. I just want people to be aware to look into
their local conditions and not just add chemicals because "everyone
else does!"

dick