Sick discus - need advice

[Elaine T]

My little discus who has been starving himself is not faring much better
in quarantine in soft blackwater at 90F. His color has improved, but
that's about all. Overall, I've seen discus look worse...his fins,
eyes, and slimecoat are in excellent shape. He's dark but not black,
and spends a lot of time hovering tipped slightly downward. Fins are
fully extended with no tendency to clamp them.

Disease symptoms are refusal to eat for a couple of weeks, some
hole-in-the-head that has not spread to the lateral line, white, mucoid
feces, and somewhat hard gilling with pale gills. By Untergasser's
charts, the gill troubles are most likely anemia from malnourishment
since I cannot see any damage. There is no anal inflammation or signs
of Capillaria or tapeworms.

From all this, I'm guessing an intestinal parasitic infection possibly
from some suspect frozen glassworms or live blackworms. (I never could
get this fish to accept prepared foods and the only thing he'd eat when
I first got him were blackworms.) I have no microscope so I cannot
guess whether the trouble is hexamita, flukes, or worms. He's not
eating, so medicated food is not an option. My thinking is to try
metronidazole if I can find some, Clout if not, and Fluke tabs if
treatment for hexamita dosn't work. Does this make sense or should I
try the Fluke tabs or Clout first? Clout says it will likely affect
nitrification and I'm a bit concerned about losing the cycle. My Q-tank
is small and I'll have to stress the fish (and myself since I have to
lug RO water from the store) with even bigger water changes than I'm
already doing.

Any advice would be appreciated.

--
Elaine T __
http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><
rec.aquaria.* FAQ http://faq.thekrib.com

[Gill Passman]

Elaine T wrote:
> My little discus who has been starving himself is not faring much better
> in quarantine in soft blackwater at 90F. His color has improved, but
> that's about all. Overall, I've seen discus look worse...his fins,
> eyes, and slimecoat are in excellent shape. He's dark but not black,
> and spends a lot of time hovering tipped slightly downward. Fins are
> fully extended with no tendency to clamp them.
>
> Disease symptoms are refusal to eat for a couple of weeks, some
> hole-in-the-head that has not spread to the lateral line, white, mucoid
> feces, and somewhat hard gilling with pale gills. By Untergasser's
> charts, the gill troubles are most likely anemia from malnourishment
> since I cannot see any damage. There is no anal inflammation or signs
> of Capillaria or tapeworms.
>
> From all this, I'm guessing an intestinal parasitic infection possibly
> from some suspect frozen glassworms or live blackworms. (I never could
> get this fish to accept prepared foods and the only thing he'd eat when
> I first got him were blackworms.) I have no microscope so I cannot
> guess whether the trouble is hexamita, flukes, or worms. He's not
> eating, so medicated food is not an option. My thinking is to try
> metronidazole if I can find some, Clout if not, and Fluke tabs if
> treatment for hexamita dosn't work. Does this make sense or should I
> try the Fluke tabs or Clout first? Clout says it will likely affect
> nitrification and I'm a bit concerned about losing the cycle. My Q-tank
> is small and I'll have to stress the fish (and myself since I have to
> lug RO water from the store) with even bigger water changes than I'm
> already doing.
>
> Any advice would be appreciated.
>

I'm so sorry to hear this news about Flower :-( As you know I have no
experience of Discus or this sort of illness but the only thing that is
ringing bells in my head are the dragonfly lavae having lurked on
rec.ponds and read what they can do to Koi....

Sorry again
Gill

[Alpha]

Although I am not a true expert, I would say your analysis is cogent and the
course you state is the best you can do.

[Elaine T]

Alpha wrote:
> Although I am not a true expert, I would say your analysis is cogent and the
> course you state is the best you can do.
>
>
Thanks, Alpha. Your double-check is valuable. I'm going in search of
metronidazole.

--
Elaine T __
http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><
rec.aquaria.* FAQ http://faq.thekrib.com

[fish lover]

On Tue, 11 Oct 2005 20:33:39 GMT, Elaine T >
wrote:

>My little discus who has been starving himself is not faring much better
>in quarantine in soft blackwater at 90F. His color has improved, but
>that's about all. Overall, I've seen discus look worse...his fins,
>eyes, and slimecoat are in excellent shape. He's dark but not black,
>and spends a lot of time hovering tipped slightly downward. Fins are
>fully extended with no tendency to clamp them.
>
>Disease symptoms are refusal to eat for a couple of weeks, some
>hole-in-the-head that has not spread to the lateral line, white, mucoid
>feces, and somewhat hard gilling with pale gills. By Untergasser's
>charts, the gill troubles are most likely anemia from malnourishment
>since I cannot see any damage. There is no anal inflammation or signs
>of Capillaria or tapeworms.
>
> From all this, I'm guessing an intestinal parasitic infection possibly
>from some suspect frozen glassworms or live blackworms. (I never could
>get this fish to accept prepared foods and the only thing he'd eat when
>I first got him were blackworms.) I have no microscope so I cannot
>guess whether the trouble is hexamita, flukes, or worms. He's not
>eating, so medicated food is not an option. My thinking is to try
>metronidazole if I can find some, Clout if not, and Fluke tabs if
>treatment for hexamita dosn't work. Does this make sense or should I
>try the Fluke tabs or Clout first? Clout says it will likely affect
>nitrification and I'm a bit concerned about losing the cycle. My Q-tank
>is small and I'll have to stress the fish (and myself since I have to
>lug RO water from the store) with even bigger water changes than I'm
>already doing.
>
>Any advice would be appreciated.


Sorry to hear that. I just lost one discus few days ago. I think you
may have to let it go.

I would cut my loss and focus on my healthy discus. You want to make
sure they don't catch the same thing. Make sure you do not have any
dirty water or unwelcome tank mates. Be careful with temp, acid and
ammo levels. Change water more than what you were doing few days ago.
Feed frozen bloodworms to them for few days to make sure thay are
eating enough food.

Sounds like you know what you are doing. You may not need me to remind
you of all these.

Good luck.

[Elaine T]

Gill Passman wrote:
> Elaine T wrote:
>
>> My little discus who has been starving himself is not faring much
>> better in quarantine in soft blackwater at 90F. His color has
>> improved, but that's about all. Overall, I've seen discus look
>> worse...his fins, eyes, and slimecoat are in excellent shape. He's
>> dark but not black, and spends a lot of time hovering tipped slightly
>> downward. Fins are fully extended with no tendency to clamp them.
>>
>> Disease symptoms are refusal to eat for a couple of weeks, some
>> hole-in-the-head that has not spread to the lateral line, white,
>> mucoid feces, and somewhat hard gilling with pale gills. By
>> Untergasser's charts, the gill troubles are most likely anemia from
>> malnourishment since I cannot see any damage. There is no anal
>> inflammation or signs of Capillaria or tapeworms.
>>
>> From all this, I'm guessing an intestinal parasitic infection
>> possibly from some suspect frozen glassworms or live blackworms. (I
>> never could get this fish to accept prepared foods and the only thing
>> he'd eat when I first got him were blackworms.) I have no microscope
>> so I cannot guess whether the trouble is hexamita, flukes, or worms.
>> He's not eating, so medicated food is not an option. My thinking is
>> to try metronidazole if I can find some, Clout if not, and Fluke tabs
>> if treatment for hexamita dosn't work. Does this make sense or should
>> I try the Fluke tabs or Clout first? Clout says it will likely affect
>> nitrification and I'm a bit concerned about losing the cycle. My
>> Q-tank is small and I'll have to stress the fish (and myself since I
>> have to lug RO water from the store) with even bigger water changes
>> than I'm already doing.
>>
>> Any advice would be appreciated.
>>
>
> I'm so sorry to hear this news about Flower :-( As you know I have no
> experience of Discus or this sort of illness but the only thing that is
> ringing bells in my head are the dragonfly lavae having lurked on
> rec.ponds and read what they can do to Koi....
>
> Sorry again
> Gill

Thanks, Gill. This isn't the dragonfly larvae tank, but I'm still
suspicious of what else might have been in that batch of food. Ah
well... Keep your fingers crossed for Flower.

--
Elaine T __
http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><
rec.aquaria.* FAQ http://faq.thekrib.com

[Elaine T]

fish lover wrote:
> On Tue, 11 Oct 2005 20:33:39 GMT, Elaine T >
> wrote:
>
>
>>My little discus who has been starving himself is not faring much better
>>in quarantine in soft blackwater at 90F. His color has improved, but
>>that's about all. Overall, I've seen discus look worse...his fins,
>>eyes, and slimecoat are in excellent shape. He's dark but not black,
>>and spends a lot of time hovering tipped slightly downward. Fins are
>>fully extended with no tendency to clamp them.
>>
>>Disease symptoms are refusal to eat for a couple of weeks, some
>>hole-in-the-head that has not spread to the lateral line, white, mucoid
>>feces, and somewhat hard gilling with pale gills. By Untergasser's
>>charts, the gill troubles are most likely anemia from malnourishment
>>since I cannot see any damage. There is no anal inflammation or signs
>>of Capillaria or tapeworms.
>>
>>From all this, I'm guessing an intestinal parasitic infection possibly
>
>>from some suspect frozen glassworms or live blackworms. (I never could
>
>>get this fish to accept prepared foods and the only thing he'd eat when
>>I first got him were blackworms.) I have no microscope so I cannot
>>guess whether the trouble is hexamita, flukes, or worms. He's not
>>eating, so medicated food is not an option. My thinking is to try
>>metronidazole if I can find some, Clout if not, and Fluke tabs if
>>treatment for hexamita dosn't work. Does this make sense or should I
>>try the Fluke tabs or Clout first? Clout says it will likely affect
>>nitrification and I'm a bit concerned about losing the cycle. My Q-tank
>>is small and I'll have to stress the fish (and myself since I have to
>>lug RO water from the store) with even bigger water changes than I'm
>>already doing.
>>
>>Any advice would be appreciated.
>
>
>
> Sorry to hear that. I just lost one discus few days ago. I think you
> may have to let it go.
>
> I would cut my loss and focus on my healthy discus. You want to make
> sure they don't catch the same thing. Make sure you do not have any
> dirty water or unwelcome tank mates. Be careful with temp, acid and
> ammo levels. Change water more than what you were doing few days ago.
> Feed frozen bloodworms to them for few days to make sure thay are
> eating enough food.
>
> Sounds like you know what you are doing. You may not need me to remind
> you of all these.
>
> Good luck.

Thanks. Unfortunately, this fellow is a loner in a tank that he will
eventually outgrow. He was a generous gift from a loving, but
non-aquarist boyfriend. I'd like to see the fish well again so I'm
going to give it my best try.

--
Elaine T __
http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><
rec.aquaria.* FAQ http://faq.thekrib.com

[Frank]

Metronidazole 250mg - you might have a better chance finding it at a
pet store as "Hex-a-mit". Treatment for parasite protozoans, hexamita,
discus and angel disease, hole-in-the-head, and velvet. One cap per 10
gal. every other day for 5 days - repeat full treatment if necessary in
three days. *Be sure to avoid oxygen depletion*. Works better as a
medicated frozen food - mix one cap or 1/4 tsp. per 4 oz of food. Feed
once a day for 10 days (once you get it eating again)... Sometimes when
a discus turns dark and floats head down or lay flat on the bottom,
their air bladder is affected. A temperature spike can be the cause.
Same sysptoms, could be an infection of the opening of their swim
bladder, in which case you would want to lower the temp. and treat with
Quinine Sulfate... Feeding live blackworms - it's probably affected
with intestinal flagellates or worms. Sysptoms are as above, plus the
ridge of the dorsum starts to show a sharp edge (thinning of the upper
body) and its eyes can also sink in - can be treated with Paracide-X,
or Fluke-Tabs. Treating with eather of those you not only have to avoid
oxygen drpletion, but also have to watch for drug affects such as
uncoordinated swimming and mouth muscle movements, and/or head standing
- happens with to high of dose............. Frank

[Elaine T]

Frank wrote:
> Metronidazole 250mg - you might have a better chance finding it at a
> pet store as "Hex-a-mit". Treatment for parasite protozoans, hexamita,
> discus and angel disease, hole-in-the-head, and velvet. One cap per 10
> gal. every other day for 5 days - repeat full treatment if necessary in
> three days. *Be sure to avoid oxygen depletion*. Works better as a
> medicated frozen food - mix one cap or 1/4 tsp. per 4 oz of food. Feed
> once a day for 10 days (once you get it eating again)... Sometimes when
> a discus turns dark and floats head down or lay flat on the bottom,
> their air bladder is affected. A temperature spike can be the cause.
> Same sysptoms, could be an infection of the opening of their swim
> bladder, in which case you would want to lower the temp. and treat with
> Quinine Sulfate... Feeding live blackworms - it's probably affected
> with intestinal flagellates or worms. Sysptoms are as above, plus the
> ridge of the dorsum starts to show a sharp edge (thinning of the upper
> body) and its eyes can also sink in - can be treated with Paracide-X,
> or Fluke-Tabs. Treating with eather of those you not only have to avoid
> oxygen drpletion, but also have to watch for drug affects such as
> uncoordinated swimming and mouth muscle movements, and/or head standing
> - happens with to high of dose............. Frank
>
Thanks, Frank. I've gone to the two biggest specialist fish stores in
town and can't find metronidazole. Both stores carried the Aquatronics
line and now that Aquatronics is out of business are at a complete loss
as to where to find medications like Hex-a-mit. As for medicated food,
the fish isn't eating so I'm stuck with water.

I've started with Clout since it's supposed to also work on Hexamita and
then I'll give him a few days and treat once with Fluke tabs. I'm
managing both oxygen and ammonia and things seem OK so far.

--
Elaine T __
http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><
rec.aquaria.* FAQ http://faq.thekrib.com

[T]

Try these guys - if you're like me lfs don't stock what you need until after
you've gotten it anyway!

http://jehmco.com/PRODUCTS_/WATER_TREATMENTS_ETC_/Medications/medications.html

I order 99% from the web - a lot cheaper to pay the shipping charges than to
buy locally.

Tim



"Elaine T" > wrote in message
.. .
> Frank wrote:
>> Metronidazole 250mg - you might have a better chance finding it at a
>> pet store as "Hex-a-mit". Treatment for parasite protozoans, hexamita,
>> discus and angel disease, hole-in-the-head, and velvet. One cap per 10
>> gal. every other day for 5 days - repeat full treatment if necessary in
>> three days. *Be sure to avoid oxygen depletion*. Works better as a
>> medicated frozen food - mix one cap or 1/4 tsp. per 4 oz of food. Feed
>> once a day for 10 days (once you get it eating again)... Sometimes when
>> a discus turns dark and floats head down or lay flat on the bottom,
>> their air bladder is affected. A temperature spike can be the cause.
>> Same sysptoms, could be an infection of the opening of their swim
>> bladder, in which case you would want to lower the temp. and treat with
>> Quinine Sulfate... Feeding live blackworms - it's probably affected
>> with intestinal flagellates or worms. Sysptoms are as above, plus the
>> ridge of the dorsum starts to show a sharp edge (thinning of the upper
>> body) and its eyes can also sink in - can be treated with Paracide-X,
>> or Fluke-Tabs. Treating with eather of those you not only have to avoid
>> oxygen drpletion, but also have to watch for drug affects such as
>> uncoordinated swimming and mouth muscle movements, and/or head standing
>> - happens with to high of dose............. Frank
>>
> Thanks, Frank. I've gone to the two biggest specialist fish stores in
> town and can't find metronidazole. Both stores carried the Aquatronics
> line and now that Aquatronics is out of business are at a complete loss as
> to where to find medications like Hex-a-mit. As for medicated food, the
> fish isn't eating so I'm stuck with water.
>
> I've started with Clout since it's supposed to also work on Hexamita and
> then I'll give him a few days and treat once with Fluke tabs. I'm
> managing both oxygen and ammonia and things seem OK so far.
>
> --
> Elaine T __
> http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><
> rec.aquaria.* FAQ http://faq.thekrib.com

[Elaine T]

T wrote:
> Try these guys - if you're like me lfs don't stock what you need until after
> you've gotten it anyway!
>
> http://jehmco.com/PRODUCTS_/WATER_TREATMENTS_ETC_/Medications/medications.html
>
> I order 99% from the web - a lot cheaper to pay the shipping charges than to
> buy locally.
>
> Tim
>

That's a great resource. Thanks so much!

--
Elaine T __
http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><
rec.aquaria.* FAQ http://faq.thekrib.com

[Beano]

Have you looked on eBay - see if you can buy some that will express
ship it to you. Other than that, I have no useful advice.

[fish lover]

Well, I think you just found your cause: loner in the tank. Discus do
well with schools. It needs about 6 to feel comfortable and not
stressed.

As for finding things on the web, try this one
1-800-381-7179
http://www.drsfostersmith.com/
I order things from them all the time. So far they are very good to
me.


Good luck.



On Wed, 12 Oct 2005 02:49:00 GMT, Elaine T >
wrote:

>fish lover wrote:
>> On Tue, 11 Oct 2005 20:33:39 GMT, Elaine T >
>> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>My little discus who has been starving himself is not faring much better
>>>in quarantine in soft blackwater at 90F. His color has improved, but
>>>that's about all. Overall, I've seen discus look worse...his fins,
>>>eyes, and slimecoat are in excellent shape. He's dark but not black,
>>>and spends a lot of time hovering tipped slightly downward. Fins are
>>>fully extended with no tendency to clamp them.
>>>
>>>Disease symptoms are refusal to eat for a couple of weeks, some
>>>hole-in-the-head that has not spread to the lateral line, white, mucoid
>>>feces, and somewhat hard gilling with pale gills. By Untergasser's
>>>charts, the gill troubles are most likely anemia from malnourishment
>>>since I cannot see any damage. There is no anal inflammation or signs
>>>of Capillaria or tapeworms.
>>>
>>>From all this, I'm guessing an intestinal parasitic infection possibly
>>
>>>from some suspect frozen glassworms or live blackworms. (I never could
>>
>>>get this fish to accept prepared foods and the only thing he'd eat when
>>>I first got him were blackworms.) I have no microscope so I cannot
>>>guess whether the trouble is hexamita, flukes, or worms. He's not
>>>eating, so medicated food is not an option. My thinking is to try
>>>metronidazole if I can find some, Clout if not, and Fluke tabs if
>>>treatment for hexamita dosn't work. Does this make sense or should I
>>>try the Fluke tabs or Clout first? Clout says it will likely affect
>>>nitrification and I'm a bit concerned about losing the cycle. My Q-tank
>>>is small and I'll have to stress the fish (and myself since I have to
>>>lug RO water from the store) with even bigger water changes than I'm
>>>already doing.
>>>
>>>Any advice would be appreciated.
>>
>>
>>
>> Sorry to hear that. I just lost one discus few days ago. I think you
>> may have to let it go.
>>
>> I would cut my loss and focus on my healthy discus. You want to make
>> sure they don't catch the same thing. Make sure you do not have any
>> dirty water or unwelcome tank mates. Be careful with temp, acid and
>> ammo levels. Change water more than what you were doing few days ago.
>> Feed frozen bloodworms to them for few days to make sure thay are
>> eating enough food.
>>
>> Sounds like you know what you are doing. You may not need me to remind
>> you of all these.
>>
>> Good luck.
>
>Thanks. Unfortunately, this fellow is a loner in a tank that he will
>eventually outgrow. He was a generous gift from a loving, but
>non-aquarist boyfriend. I'd like to see the fish well again so I'm
>going to give it my best try.

[[email protected]]

Elaine,

Bring your PH down to 5.4 to 5.8 (slowly over days not hours).Just
remember fish take acid water better then neutral or higher, so when it
is time to bring the water back to around 6.5- DO IT VERY SLOWLY.
Straight RO water does not have enough hardness (especialy for young
Discus) mix the RO water with tap water or add Discus Trace to the
water. Change water twice a week (same PH,Temp,etc.). Remove carbon
from the filter.
Try feeding frozen blood worms (remove any leftovers). Place the worms
in a cup and thaw with tap water.

I hope this helps,
Art

PS bacteria can not live much below 5.0 PH. DO THIS SLOWLY If you see
any problems with the fish Stop

[Elaine T]

wrote:
> Elaine,
>
> Bring your PH down to 5.4 to 5.8 (slowly over days not hours).Just
> remember fish take acid water better then neutral or higher, so when it
> is time to bring the water back to around 6.5- DO IT VERY SLOWLY.
> Straight RO water does not have enough hardness (especialy for young
> Discus) mix the RO water with tap water or add Discus Trace to the
> water. Change water twice a week (same PH,Temp,etc.). Remove carbon
> from the filter.
> Try feeding frozen blood worms (remove any leftovers). Place the worms
> in a cup and thaw with tap water.
>
> I hope this helps,
> Art
>
> PS bacteria can not live much below 5.0 PH. DO THIS SLOWLY If you see
> any problems with the fish Stop
>
Thanks. I can try that pretty easily. I've got him in RO plus 1/4 tap
water, 1 tsp salt/5 gal, and Tetra blackwater extract now. Carbon's
already out of the filter and I've got an extra sponge in my healthy
guppy tank filter in case I lose the cycle. pH is right around 7.0 so I
should be able to drop it with Seachem Acid Buffer pretty easily. My
hospital tank is small so I'm actually changing some water most days.

He looks a lot better from the Clout and heat but still isn't eating.
I've been trying to feed frozen bloodworms exactly the way you
suggested. They're one of his favorite foods. I'm going to pick up
some live brine shrimp tomorrow to see if that works better.

I think I'm also going to have to try Frank's suggestion of Fluke tabs
in a few days, once he's had a chance to rest from the Clout, and I'm
going to call around town tomorrow for metronidazole. I just don't have
$30 to mail order 100 capsules right now. :-(

--
Elaine T __
http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><
rec.aquaria.* FAQ http://faq.thekrib.com

[[email protected]]

Bullwinklerx.com has Fish-Zole™ by Thomas Laboratories
(metronidazole) 30 Capsules for 8.89 and 100 Capsules for around 18
dollars.

Art

[[email protected]]

Join the Discus-l at mit this is a good mailing list.

Art

[[email protected]]

http://world.std.com/~enjolras/symtreat.htm.... read this !!!!!

[Alpha]

"fish lover" > wrote in message
...
> Well, I think you just found your cause: loner in the tank. Discus do
> well with schools. It needs about 6 to feel comfortable and not
> stressed.

I think you do not understand the level of knowledge you are responding to
in Ellen, so I will try to be quiescent.

[NetMax]

"Alpha" > wrote in message
...
>
> "fish lover" > wrote in message
> ...
>> Well, I think you just found your cause: loner in the tank. Discus do
>> well with schools. It needs about 6 to feel comfortable and not
>> stressed.
>
> I think you do not understand the level of knowledge you are responding
> to in Ellen, so I will try to be quiescent.


There is some validity to the absence of suitable tankmates being a cause
of stress, especially among higher cichlids, but I think Flower comes
from a very laid back tank, so she rules ;~).
--
www.NetMax.tk

[NetMax]

> wrote in message
oups.com...
> Join the Discus-l at mit this is a good mailing list.
>
> Art



OT, if this is Art from Ottawa, rumour has it that the fish store I used
to work at is looking for a new mgr. At the very least, it might be a
good time to apply for a few evening & weekend shifts. They are going to
need someone knowledgeable to keep their Discus tanks in good working
order.
--
www.NetMax.tk

[Elaine T]

wrote:
> Bullwinklerx.com has Fish-Zole™ by Thomas Laboratories
> (metronidazole) 30 Capsules for 8.89 and 100 Capsules for around 18
> dollars.
>
> Art
>
Thank you! That helps a lot. I'll probably let the Clout wash out and
treat with the metronidazole as soon as it arrives.

I looked at the symptom-based treatment article too. Turns out it was
mostly written from the very books that I've been poring over for the
last two weeks. Maybe it will help someone else, though.

--
Elaine T __
http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><
rec.aquaria.* FAQ http://faq.thekrib.com

[Jim]

Hello Elaine:

How is your discus doing? Is he doing any better? Perhaps you can try
feeding him a multi-vitamin enriched bloodworm such as Hikaru's frozen
bloodworms. My discus went though a "phase" as well (not eating for
days) but showed a major improvement as he started eating these
bloodworms.

Hope this helps.

Jim.

[Elaine T]

NetMax wrote:
> "Alpha" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>"fish lover" > wrote in message
...
>>
>>>Well, I think you just found your cause: loner in the tank. Discus do
>>>well with schools. It needs about 6 to feel comfortable and not
>>>stressed.
>>
>>I think you do not understand the level of knowledge you are responding
>>to in Ellen, so I will try to be quiescent.
>
>
>
> There is some validity to the absence of suitable tankmates being a cause
> of stress, especially among higher cichlids, but I think Flower comes
> from a very laid back tank, so she rules ;~).

I wish I could have a 90gal tank with a shoal of five discus! However,
Flower's king of his VERY laid-back tank when he's well. There are a
cardinals, Espei rasboras, Otocinclus, one small SAE who thinks he's a
rasbora, and a pygmy chained loach for tankmates. The discus used to
beg or food at the front of the tank in angel fish fashion. Once fed,
he would lunge into the shoals of smaller fish, scattering them to get
the choice morsels of food. It was very cichlid-like behavior that I'd
assocate more with an angel fish or M. altispinosa.

--
Elaine T __
http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><
rec.aquaria.* FAQ http://faq.thekrib.com

[Elaine T]

Jim wrote:
> Hello Elaine:
>
> How is your discus doing? Is he doing any better? Perhaps you can try
> feeding him a multi-vitamin enriched bloodworm such as Hikaru's frozen
> bloodworms. My discus went though a "phase" as well (not eating for
> days) but showed a major improvement as he started eating these
> bloodworms.
>
> Hope this helps.
>
> Jim.
>
Unfortunately, this does not appear to be a "phase." The fish is only
marginally better after 5 days of Clout. He has colored up and isn't
gilling quite as hard, but still has the mucoid droppings. I've been
offering Hikari bloodworms since they were one of his favorite foods.
There might be one or two disappering from the bottom of the tank, but
I'm really not sure.

I'm going to wait a couple of days and then try a dose of Fluke Tabs
since they will treat some intestinal parasites that the
Clout/metronidazole doesn't. I've mail ordered metronidazole (Thanks,
Art!) and after the Fluke Tabs, I'll start the metronidazole.!

--
Elaine T __
http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><
rec.aquaria.* FAQ http://faq.thekrib.com

[Gill Passman]

Elaine T wrote:
> Jim wrote:
>
>> Hello Elaine:
>>
>> How is your discus doing? Is he doing any better? Perhaps you can try
>> feeding him a multi-vitamin enriched bloodworm such as Hikaru's frozen
>> bloodworms. My discus went though a "phase" as well (not eating for
>> days) but showed a major improvement as he started eating these
>> bloodworms.
>> Hope this helps.
>>
>> Jim.
>>
> Unfortunately, this does not appear to be a "phase." The fish is only
> marginally better after 5 days of Clout. He has colored up and isn't
> gilling quite as hard, but still has the mucoid droppings. I've been
> offering Hikari bloodworms since they were one of his favorite foods.
> There might be one or two disappering from the bottom of the tank, but
> I'm really not sure.
>
> I'm going to wait a couple of days and then try a dose of Fluke Tabs
> since they will treat some intestinal parasites that the
> Clout/metronidazole doesn't. I've mail ordered metronidazole (Thanks,
> Art!) and after the Fluke Tabs, I'll start the metronidazole.!
>
I'm currently on Metronidazole - it's sure helping me - I hope it helps
Flower in the same way and he makes a speeding recovery....

Gill

[[email protected]]

Elaine,

Have you had your Discus with any Anglefish? If so read the Jack
Wattley Column (Ask Jack) in Tropical Fish Hobbyist (April 2005) page
41.

Art

[Stokes]

Jungle Labs has a product called Tank Mates or Tank buddies, sumthing
like that. It treats flukes, worms, hexamita etc. Contains
Metronizodole too. I've used it in the past with success.

[Elaine T]

wrote:
> Elaine,
>
> Have you had your Discus with any Anglefish? If so read the Jack
> Wattley Column (Ask Jack) in Tropical Fish Hobbyist (April 2005) page
> 41.
>
> Art
>
No, no, no! I know better than that.

I think the problem was either blackworms or a pre-existing illness.
I've only had the fish since June. This discus was a reluctant eater
from the beginning. I spent the first ten days I had him watching him
refuse the Spectrum food he supposedly ate at the store, flakes for the
other fish, frozen bloodworms, brine shrimp, glass worms, Wattley discus
food, and anything else I offered. I should have suspected disease
then, but I thought it was acclimation stress because my tank has a
higher pH, harder water, and lower temps than he was used to.

After two weeks, I finally offered blackworms and he started eating with
a fairly typical cichlid appetite (more, please?). These weren't
Tubifex, but farmed Lumbriculus, rinsed for 3-5 days before offering
them to the fish. Not an ideal food, but at least he ate them. Once he
was begging for food every time I passed the tank, I weaned him onto
live brine shrimp and finally was able to add Hikari frozen bloodworms
and Sally's frozen glassworms. I never could get him to take
manufactured foods.

However, he slowed down eating, started hiding rather than begging, and
completely lost his appetite again. He definately could have caught
something from the blackworms but I was at wit's end finding something
he would eat.

--
Elaine T __
http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><
rec.aquaria.* FAQ http://faq.thekrib.com

[Frank]

Some 30+ years ago, a friend of mine bought 24 of Jack Wattley's Royal
Blues at $24.00 each - silver dollar size. I ended up with 4 of them
two years later, two of which paired off. The whole bunch of them never
would eat anything but live foods. Well - the breeding pair always ate
their eggs. I raised their fry on microworms, vinegar eels and
grindalworms. Microworms and vinegar eels are smaller than newly
hatched brine shrimp, but the grindalworms get up to 15mm long, and
discus go nuts over them. They are very productive and easy to culture.
You can find a starter culture from the back of a fish keeping
magazines..............Frank

[Elaine T]

Frank wrote:
> Some 30+ years ago, a friend of mine bought 24 of Jack Wattley's Royal
> Blues at $24.00 each - silver dollar size. I ended up with 4 of them
> two years later, two of which paired off. The whole bunch of them never
> would eat anything but live foods. Well - the breeding pair always ate
> their eggs. I raised their fry on microworms, vinegar eels and
> grindalworms. Microworms and vinegar eels are smaller than newly
> hatched brine shrimp, but the grindalworms get up to 15mm long, and
> discus go nuts over them. They are very productive and easy to culture.
> You can find a starter culture from the back of a fish keeping
> magazines..............Frank
>
I hadn't thought of grindalworms. There's a gentleman in my aquarium
society who has all sorts of live food cultures. I bet he has some.
They sound good for guppies and bettas too.

--
Elaine T __
http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><
rec.aquaria.* FAQ http://faq.thekrib.com

[Frank]

I bred and raised (what I *used* to call hy-brids....grin) livebearers,
angels, tetras, cichlids, bettas, catfish - over the years, just about
everything. Hatched BBS, but once I started feeding worm cultures, I
fed it to all of the different species. A *lot* easyer than hatching
BBS. My largest mollies and sword fry were fed live worms 5 or 6 times
a day. From fry to breeder size, they reached 6 and 7"s. The mollie
breeders would drop up to 200 fry per batch - swordtail females don't
get as big around as the mollies, so their batches were a little
smaller (150). Angel spawnnings were twice as big, once a week. And my
cardinal tetras and neons never did spawn untill I started feeding
microworms and vinegar eels. Once I had a pair of redtail black sharks
scatter eggs in a 180 gal. community tank - only one time, before I
knew to take all water parameters so they could be matched again. I
remember watching the news that night - there was a sharp drop in
barometric pressure (storm) just before they spawned - I'm sure that it
had something to do with their spawning. Yes, if I had to pick one food
for all the fish, it would have to be the Grindalworms. Plastic box, 2"
potting compost, 1" of water, add starter culture, feed powered oatmeal
and lay a piece of glass atop the compost leaving a 1/4" space from the
edges of the glass to the plastic box. Worms from 3mm to 15mm will
crawl up onto the glass and can be harvested daily - feed and replace
glass. Can't get any easyer than that, and cheap!
Better Fluke-Tab your discus before it starves! .............. Frank

[Elaine T]

Frank wrote:
> I bred and raised (what I *used* to call hy-brids....grin) livebearers,
> angels, tetras, cichlids, bettas, catfish - over the years, just about
> everything. Hatched BBS, but once I started feeding worm cultures, I
> fed it to all of the different species. A *lot* easyer than hatching
> BBS. My largest mollies and sword fry were fed live worms 5 or 6 times
> a day. From fry to breeder size, they reached 6 and 7"s. The mollie
> breeders would drop up to 200 fry per batch - swordtail females don't
> get as big around as the mollies, so their batches were a little
> smaller (150). Angel spawnnings were twice as big, once a week. And my
> cardinal tetras and neons never did spawn untill I started feeding
> microworms and vinegar eels. Once I had a pair of redtail black sharks
> scatter eggs in a 180 gal. community tank - only one time, before I
> knew to take all water parameters so they could be matched again. I
> remember watching the news that night - there was a sharp drop in
> barometric pressure (storm) just before they spawned - I'm sure that it
> had something to do with their spawning. Yes, if I had to pick one food
> for all the fish, it would have to be the Grindalworms. Plastic box, 2"
> potting compost, 1" of water, add starter culture, feed powered oatmeal
> and lay a piece of glass atop the compost leaving a 1/4" space from the
> edges of the glass to the plastic box. Worms from 3mm to 15mm will
> crawl up onto the glass and can be harvested daily - feed and replace
> glass. Can't get any easyer than that, and cheap!
> Better Fluke-Tab your discus before it starves! .............. Frank
>
No kidding! I got the metronidazole today in the mail. (YAY!) Not
sure whether to try Fluke Tabs or metronidazole first. I'm thinking
metronidazole since the Clout I already tried for five days is more
similar to Fluke Tabs. Any thoughts?

--
Elaine T __
http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><
rec.aquaria.* FAQ http://faq.thekrib.com

[Frank]

Metronidazole should kill the parasites and being an antibiotic, any
bacterial infections. Now that you have it, by all means use it. With
fluke-tabs, one should treat with an antibiotic in case it is a
bacterial infection and not parasites. I feed a home made medicated
food............... Frank

[Alan]

"Frank" > wrote in message
oups.com...
>I bred and raised (what I *used* to call hy-brids....grin) livebearers,
> angels, tetras, cichlids, bettas, catfish - over the years, just about
> everything. Hatched BBS, but once I started feeding worm cultures, I
> fed it to all of the different species. A *lot* easyer than hatching
> BBS. My largest mollies and sword fry were fed live worms 5 or 6 times
> a day. From fry to breeder size, they reached 6 and 7"s. The mollie
> breeders would drop up to 200 fry per batch - swordtail females don't
> get as big around as the mollies, so their batches were a little
> smaller (150). Angel spawnnings were twice as big, once a week. And my
> cardinal tetras and neons never did spawn untill I started feeding
> microworms and vinegar eels. Once I had a pair of redtail black sharks
> scatter eggs in a 180 gal. community tank - only one time, before I
> knew to take all water parameters so they could be matched again. I
> remember watching the news that night - there was a sharp drop in
> barometric pressure (storm) just before they spawned - I'm sure that it
> had something to do with their spawning. Yes, if I had to pick one food
> for all the fish, it would have to be the Grindalworms. Plastic box, 2"
> potting compost, 1" of water, add starter culture, feed powered oatmeal
> and lay a piece of glass atop the compost leaving a 1/4" space from the
> edges of the glass to the plastic box. Worms from 3mm to 15mm will
> crawl up onto the glass and can be harvested daily - feed and replace
> glass. Can't get any easyer than that, and cheap!
> Better Fluke-Tab your discus before it starves! .............. Frank


Frank,

Thank you very much for that post. Now I really want to give grindalworms a
try.

One thing I'm not clear about - what do you mean when you say "From fry to
breeder size, they reached 6 and 7"s." Thanks.

Alan

[Frank]

If you feed live worms 5 to 6 times a day, from the time they are born
untill the time they reach breeder size, they will be *much* larger
than if you would have fed only 1 or 2 times a day. A 3" mollie drops
about 30 fry, at 4" she will drop mabe 60 fry and at 6" she will drop
from 150 to 200. So, if your breeding for profit, feed the best food
you can get, 5 or 6 times a day.... You will also want/have to do a 5%
water change once a day.................Frank

[Alan]

"Frank" > wrote in message
ups.com...
> If you feed live worms 5 to 6 times a day, from the time they are born
> untill the time they reach breeder size, they will be *much* larger
> than if you would have fed only 1 or 2 times a day. A 3" mollie drops
> about 30 fry, at 4" she will drop mabe 60 fry and at 6" she will drop
> from 150 to 200. So, if your breeding for profit, feed the best food
> you can get, 5 or 6 times a day.... You will also want/have to do a 5%
> water change once a day.................Frank

Thanks - I wasn't sure if you meant 6" - 7" since that's beyond my ability
to comprehend! I knew a guy that was breeding swords to increase their
size, but your results exceed his genetics experiments.

It looks like the fish already have the DNA, they just need the right food
at the right time. I'm looking forward to experimenting with that. Thanks
again for a great post. Now to find a grindal worm colony. Do they have an
odor?

Alan

[Frank]

I'm sure the food is only part of it - they need the room to grow
also. My grow-out tanks were 29 gal. and home made 180 gal. tanks. I
beleave placeing the fry in a deeper tank right from the start also has
a lot to do with it, along with those daily water changes..... I could
never smell the culture, but I smoke. My wife quite smokeing years ago
(makes me go outside to smoke) - says they smell a little earthy to
her. Microworms are/can be a different story. You make a stiff paste -
two tablespoons of oatmeal and 1/4 teaspoon of dried yeast. Add boiling
water to make paste - place in a butter tub with a few holes in the
lid. When it cools, add the starter culture. In 5 to 7 days the culture
will produce enough to harvest. Some where from 14 days to 21 days it
will start to become dark and smell. You will have to discard it and
start a new culture from the old one. I always had 8 to 10 going at one
time along with the vinegar eels and brine shrimp............ Frank

[Alan]

"Frank" > wrote in message
ups.com...
> I'm sure the food is only part of it - they need the room to grow
> also. My grow-out tanks were 29 gal. and home made 180 gal. tanks. I
> beleave placeing the fry in a deeper tank right from the start also has
> a lot to do with it, along with those daily water changes..... I could
> never smell the culture, but I smoke. My wife quite smokeing years ago
> (makes me go outside to smoke) - says they smell a little earthy to
> her. Microworms are/can be a different story. You make a stiff paste -
> two tablespoons of oatmeal and 1/4 teaspoon of dried yeast. Add boiling
> water to make paste - place in a butter tub with a few holes in the
> lid. When it cools, add the starter culture. In 5 to 7 days the culture
> will produce enough to harvest. Some where from 14 days to 21 days it
> will start to become dark and smell. You will have to discard it and
> start a new culture from the old one. I always had 8 to 10 going at one
> time along with the vinegar eels and brine shrimp............ Frank
>


There's probably a few other things that you are doing right that you have
been doing for so long that you probably don't even notice! I am going to
try using some grindalworms - I haven't tried that before.

I got the impression earlier that you fed mostly grindalworms to the fry,
but are you also feeding the Microworms, vinegar eels and brine shrimp in
some sort of rotation?

Alan

[Frank]

Grindalworms are to large for newborn fry. Microworms and vinegar eels
are smaller than newly hatched brine shrimp and are great first foods
for livebearers and cichlids such as angels and discus we were talking
about in earlier post. Smaller fry, such as bettas and most of the
tetras, you need to start off with egg yolk and infusoria, then
microworms and vinegar eels. Newly hatched brine shrimp can be siphoned
into a baby brine shrimp net that has been placed over a coffee filter.
The filter will catch the smallest of the shrimp - about the size or
the microworms and vinegar eels, all of which can be fed untill the fry
reach 1" to1.5"s long. At 3/4" to 1", the fry can start on the smallest
of the grindalworms, which get from 3mm to 15mm in size................
Frank

[Haywire]

Awesome post Frank,

You've forgotten my favourite type of worm, white worms, these grow to
30mm and I've had my discus eat them from my hand, putting their heads
out of the water for them.

Once in a while I check the driveway during/after a rain storm and
collect the smallest earthworms that climb onto the asphalt, some
rinsing, and presto, instant colour up. Maybe that's another reason fish
like to spawn after a rainstorm, they know worms come out and get washed
into the rivers.

"Frank" > wrote in news:1129866423.344519.221120
@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:

> I bred and raised (what I *used* to call hy-brids....grin) livebearers,
> angels, tetras, cichlids, bettas, catfish - over the years, just about
> everything. Hatched BBS, but once I started feeding worm cultures, I
> fed it to all of the different species. A *lot* easyer than hatching
> BBS. My largest mollies and sword fry were fed live worms 5 or 6 times
> a day. From fry to breeder size, they reached 6 and 7"s. The mollie
> breeders would drop up to 200 fry per batch - swordtail females don't
> get as big around as the mollies, so their batches were a little
> smaller (150). Angel spawnnings were twice as big, once a week. And my
> cardinal tetras and neons never did spawn untill I started feeding
> microworms and vinegar eels. Once I had a pair of redtail black sharks
> scatter eggs in a 180 gal. community tank - only one time, before I
> knew to take all water parameters so they could be matched again. I
> remember watching the news that night - there was a sharp drop in
> barometric pressure (storm) just before they spawned - I'm sure that it
> had something to do with their spawning. Yes, if I had to pick one food
> for all the fish, it would have to be the Grindalworms. Plastic box, 2"
> potting compost, 1" of water, add starter culture, feed powered oatmeal
> and lay a piece of glass atop the compost leaving a 1/4" space from the
> edges of the glass to the plastic box. Worms from 3mm to 15mm will
> crawl up onto the glass and can be harvested daily - feed and replace
> glass. Can't get any easyer than that, and cheap!
> Better Fluke-Tab your discus before it starves! .............. Frank
>