In tank sump

[Thomas Bartkus]

I am considering getting a standard (4' or 5' long) tank and devoting 1 foot
of it as a sump by creating a dam with a glass sheet I glue into one side.
The idea being the water will overflow off the surface into the sump
section.

I am toying with this idea because -
I can enclose (hide!) the sump section in the custom cabinet I am
building.
I won't need anything hanging on the outside of the tank.
I feel more secure (rugs!) not having a need to pump water outside the
tank.
Simpler, foolproof plumbing.
I'll get more mileage out of a sump pump that won't need to work against
any more than a few inches of head.
I can use a more efficent in sump skimmer design.

Has anyone done this? I've never seen a setup like that.
Any drawbacks I'm overlooking?
Pointers?

Comments, both positive and negative, appreciated.
Thomas Bartkus

[graphixx22]

If you ask me it will take away from the look of the tank. an under
the stand sump is actually quite a simple design check out this site
www.melevsreef.com he has some really good designs.
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[TekCat]

IMO To accomplish what you described, wont it be better to use closed-loop
for circulation and a hang on skimmer? this way you 're not going to lose
1' of precious real-estate.

"Thomas Bartkus" > wrote in message
...
>I am considering getting a standard (4' or 5' long) tank and devoting 1
>foot
> of it as a sump by creating a dam with a glass sheet I glue into one side.
> The idea being the water will overflow off the surface into the sump
> section.
>
> I am toying with this idea because -
> I can enclose (hide!) the sump section in the custom cabinet I am
> building.
> I won't need anything hanging on the outside of the tank.
> I feel more secure (rugs!) not having a need to pump water outside the
> tank.
> Simpler, foolproof plumbing.
> I'll get more mileage out of a sump pump that won't need to work against
> any more than a few inches of head.
> I can use a more efficent in sump skimmer design.
>
> Has anyone done this? I've never seen a setup like that.
> Any drawbacks I'm overlooking?
> Pointers?
>
> Comments, both positive and negative, appreciated.
> Thomas Bartkus
>
>

[Thomas Bartkus]

"graphixx22" > wrote in message
...
> If you ask me it will take away from the look of the tank.

I am building a custom stand w enclosure. The sump section will be hidden
in the furniture. Not much different, really, than putting it underneath.

> an under
> the stand sump is actually quite a simple design check out this site
> www.melevsreef.com he has some really good designs.

Yes. That's very nice.
I have always used a sump arangement like that in the past.
I've always gone to the expense of having the tank drilled and the trouble
of the pvc plumbing. What makes me uncomfortable is passing seawater
through the external pipes in my living room. In the past, these tanks were
located in a place where the occasional drip/leak/spill were no big deal.

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[Thomas Bartkus]

"TekCat" > wrote in message
...
> IMO To accomplish what you described, wont it be better to use closed-loop
> for circulation and a hang on skimmer? this way you 're not going to lose
> 1' of precious real-estate.
>
The sump uses up real estate (water volume) no matter where you put it.
The reason I want a sump in the first place is because I hate "hang on"
anythings.

Thomas Bartkus

[Wayne Sallee]

If that's where you want it, then go for it, but also
consider that 2 40 gallon tanks are cheaper than 1 80
gallon tank. ie that realistate will cost you more per
gallon than a tank on the bottom.

Wayne Sallee


Thomas Bartkus wrote:
> "TekCat" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>IMO To accomplish what you described, wont it be better to use closed-loop
>>for circulation and a hang on skimmer? this way you 're not going to lose
>>1' of precious real-estate.
>>
>
> The sump uses up real estate (water volume) no matter where you put it.
> The reason I want a sump in the first place is because I hate "hang on"
> anythings.
>
> Thomas Bartkus
>
>

[dakar]

I've seen a 180 setup where they basically carved out a 12"x6" right
angle out of each back corner with Acrilyc to run as a sump, refuge
and whatever equipment. It looked nice and clean as everything was
hidden, but a large waste of precious real estate.

Definaely a doable option.
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[Wayne Sallee]

I would recomed keeping the sump as small as you can,
basicly just use it for the protine skimmer, and a space
where you can add a bag of carbon if needed. Don't use it
as filter space, put a good pump in there to move a lot of
water, and let your live rock, and live sand do all of the
filtering. But then another problem is that with a smaller
sump, is that bubles created from the overflow will have
less time to exit the water before entering back into the
aquarium.

Wayne Sallee


Wayne Sallee wrote:
> If that's where you want it, then go for it, but also consider that 2 40
> gallon tanks are cheaper than 1 80 gallon tank. ie that realistate will
> cost you more per gallon than a tank on the bottom.
>
> Wayne Sallee
>
>
> Thomas Bartkus wrote:
>
>> "TekCat" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>
>>> IMO To accomplish what you described, wont it be better to use
>>> closed-loop
>>> for circulation and a hang on skimmer? this way you 're not going to
>>> lose
>>> 1' of precious real-estate.
>>>
>>
>> The sump uses up real estate (water volume) no matter where you put it.
>> The reason I want a sump in the first place is because I hate "hang on"
>> anythings.
>>
>> Thomas Bartkus
>>
>>

[davejnz]

I've seen it done before the way you describe and didn't care for
it.Besides taking away from precious space from the display,the
section partitioned isn't nowhere near big enough for proper
function.A sump should have as much area/water volume as possible.The
more water in the system,the more the system will be stable.With 12"
of space,it will be very hard to make a proper skimmer section with a
constant water level and a slow raw water feed.Then you'll still need
room for a return pump and float valve/switch.You will also not be
able to upgrade your sump to incorporate a fuge.I understand your
fears of drilling/plumbing an under tank sump but when done
properly,there's not much to worry about.If you need pics,check out
my 40gal project log thread.Another concern you might have is
drilling the bottom of the tank for an overflow,these types of
overflows are no where near as efficient as a horizontal overflow
along the back glass.They are drilled up high just inches under the
water level.If anything were to ever happen,the tank would only drain
a couple inches although i've never heard of anyones failing.They also
provide much more linear inches of overflow -vs- the corner
overflows(40"-48" compared to 12").This will allow a very thin layer
of water to be skimmed from the surface which is much more efficient
at getting these surface trapped organics to the skimmer as well as
quieter than corner overflows.
The benefits of a long(at least 3',i use an old 30gal tank)sump far
outweigh the convenience of a small in tank sump IME.With 3' of
length,you will be able to partition it(glass can be cut to size at
HD if you use a tank) easily to make a proper skimmer section with a
constant water level and a raw water feed from the output of the
overflow.You will be able to make a large fuge,design proper baffles
to get rid of microbubbles.Float valves/switches are easily to
corporate into the return pump section.As well as increase the total
water volume of the system as much as you'd like
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[Reptoreef]

All, very good points... I say, try it!!! Maybe a retrofit-type
acrylic sump to sit in the end you're considering as the sump that
can be removed and easiely made into usable reef area. With a 72"x24"
footprint(180 or 210), cutting off a foot or 2 will give ample space
for a reef/fuge, but will definitely use up some great reef space.
It's your dream... live it!!!
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[Wayne Sallee]

Yea that's a good idea, to make it easily removeable, so
that you can easily remove it if you don't like it. Only
problem is that if it is not glued in good, it could float
up. If it is glued in good, it won't be as easily removed,
and you will have residule silicone on the front glass.

Wayne Sallee


Reptoreef wrote:
> All, very good points... I say, try it!!! Maybe a retrofit-type
> acrylic sump to sit in the end you're considering as the sump that
> can be removed and easiely made into usable reef area. With a 72"x24"
> footprint(180 or 210), cutting off a foot or 2 will give ample space
> for a reef/fuge, but will definitely use up some great reef space.
> It's your dream... live it!!!
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[Thomas Bartkus]

"dakar" > wrote in message
...
> I've seen a 180 setup where they basically carved out a 12"x6" right
> angle out of each back corner with Acrilyc to run as a sump, refuge
> and whatever equipment.

Acrylic is great to install install (instead of glass) inside a glass tank.
You can cut and drill to your hearts content and you can silicone glue your
structures to the glass. When you want to remove/uninstall something - a
razorblade separates removes the silicone glue from plate glass - neat and
clean!

> It looked nice and clean as everything was hidden, but a large waste of
> precious real estate.

I have to say - I'm not getting all this "waste of precious real estate"
stuff!
It seems to me that if you go the sump route, you have already accepted
this.
- You hide it underneath the display tank inside the cabinetry
- You hide it beside the tank display inside cabinetry

Either way you are investing tank space and water volume to the sump at the
expense of display real estate. You have to get past this if you want a
sump!

Either you want a sump, or you don't!
Thomas Bartkus

[Thomas Bartkus]

"Wayne Sallee" > wrote in message
link.net...
> I would recomed keeping the sump as small as you can,
> basicly just use it for the protine skimmer, and a space
> where you can add a bag of carbon if needed.

Yup. As small as is reasonable. One reason for keeping a sump, though, is
to hide all the artificial hardware (pumps, skimmers, pipes, heaters,
filters) and leave the display clean and natural. IOW - it's got to hold
all the hardware.

> Don't use it as filter space, put a good pump in there to move a lot of
> water, and let your live rock, and live sand do all of the
> filtering.

I consider the skimmer "filter space". A *worthy* skimmer actually does a
good job of mechanical filtration. I believe it will also keep water
coloration under control. I have yet to use carbon. I hope the water
clarity to be such that I won't want to.

> But then another problem is that with a smaller
> sump, is that bubles created from the overflow will have
> less time to exit the water before entering back into the
> aquarium.

Tis a problem with any sump/skimmer design. The nice thing about a sump is
that you are "hiding" stuff and can devote some baffling for bubble release.
Again - the sump needs to be big enough for whatever hardware you are
imposing on the system.

Otherwise - what's the point?
Thomas Bartkus

> Wayne Sallee
>
>
> Wayne Sallee wrote:
> > If that's where you want it, then go for it, but also consider that 2 40
> > gallon tanks are cheaper than 1 80 gallon tank. ie that realistate will
> > cost you more per gallon than a tank on the bottom.
> >
> > Wayne Sallee
> >
> >
> > Thomas Bartkus wrote:
> >
> >> "TekCat" > wrote in message
> >> ...
> >>
> >>> IMO To accomplish what you described, wont it be better to use
> >>> closed-loop
> >>> for circulation and a hang on skimmer? this way you 're not going to
> >>> lose
> >>> 1' of precious real-estate.
> >>>
> >>
> >> The sump uses up real estate (water volume) no matter where you put it.
> >> The reason I want a sump in the first place is because I hate "hang on"
> >> anythings.
> >>
> >> Thomas Bartkus
> >>
> >>

[Wayne Sallee]

Yea I was not meaning to skip the skimmer.

Wayne Sallee
Wayne's Pets



Thomas Bartkus wrote:
> "Wayne Sallee" > wrote in message
> link.net...
>
>>I would recomed keeping the sump as small as you can,
>>basicly just use it for the protine skimmer, and a space
>>where you can add a bag of carbon if needed.
>
>
> Yup. As small as is reasonable. One reason for keeping a sump, though, is
> to hide all the artificial hardware (pumps, skimmers, pipes, heaters,
> filters) and leave the display clean and natural. IOW - it's got to hold
> all the hardware.
>
>
>>Don't use it as filter space, put a good pump in there to move a lot of
>>water, and let your live rock, and live sand do all of the
>>filtering.
>
>
> I consider the skimmer "filter space". A *worthy* skimmer actually does a
> good job of mechanical filtration. I believe it will also keep water
> coloration under control. I have yet to use carbon. I hope the water
> clarity to be such that I won't want to.
>
>
>>But then another problem is that with a smaller
>>sump, is that bubles created from the overflow will have
>>less time to exit the water before entering back into the
>>aquarium.
>
>
> Tis a problem with any sump/skimmer design. The nice thing about a sump is
> that you are "hiding" stuff and can devote some baffling for bubble release.
> Again - the sump needs to be big enough for whatever hardware you are
> imposing on the system.
>
> Otherwise - what's the point?
> Thomas Bartkus
>
>
>>Wayne Sallee

>>
>>Wayne Sallee wrote:
>>
>>>If that's where you want it, then go for it, but also consider that 2 40
>>>gallon tanks are cheaper than 1 80 gallon tank. ie that realistate will
>>>cost you more per gallon than a tank on the bottom.
>>>
>>>Wayne Sallee

>>>
>>>Thomas Bartkus wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>"TekCat" > wrote in message
...
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>IMO To accomplish what you described, wont it be better to use
>>>>>closed-loop
>>>>>for circulation and a hang on skimmer? this way you 're not going to
>>>>>lose
>>>>>1' of precious real-estate.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>The sump uses up real estate (water volume) no matter where you put it.
>>>>The reason I want a sump in the first place is because I hate "hang on"
>>>>anythings.
>>>>
>>>>Thomas Bartkus
>>>>
>>>>
>
>
>

[davejnz]

> I have to say - I'm not getting all this "waste of precious real
estate"
> stuff!
>

We're just reffering to the waste of space in the display tank.As
for acrylic,silicon doesn't bond well to plastics.Its best to use a
glue designed for acrylic.After it has cured,run a bead of silicon
over that.
If you plan on getting a 5' tank that has a large footprint (60" x
24"),it would give you alot more room for the in-tank-sump(12" x
24").With proper baffle design,a functional skimmer section/return
section could be made.One advantage to this deign is a small return
pump could be used as head pressure would be only 1'.Just
remember,you dont want a high volume of water flowing through your
sump.Current/water flow should be in the display,not the sump.A
closed loop is the best way to achieve this and its inputs/outputs
can easily be drilled if you use acrylic for your partition.
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[Thomas Bartkus]

"davejnz" > wrote in message
...
> > I have to say - I'm not getting all this "waste of precious real
> estate"
> > stuff!
> >
>
> We're just reffering to the waste of space in the display tank.As
> for acrylic,silicon doesn't bond well to plastics.Its best to use a
> glue designed for acrylic.After it has cured,run a bead of silicon
> over that.
> If you plan on getting a 5' tank that has a large footprint (60" x
> 24"),it would give you alot more room for the in-tank-sump(12" x
> 24").With proper baffle design,a functional skimmer section/return
> section could be made.One advantage to this deign is a small return
> pump could be used as head pressure would be only 1'.

> Just remember,you dont want a high volume of water flowing through
your
> sump.Current/water flow should be in the display,not the sump.

How can you have a high water flow through the sump without an *identical*
flow blasting back to the display on the return line? If the sump flow is
high, the display flow is necessarily high also.

I never considered that one might want to restrict flow to the sump. One
could keep the sump flow low and install a few mini pumps to keep the
display side flow high. But - I sort of like the idea of hiding as much
hardware as possible in the sump.

Why *not* just keep the sump flow as high as possible and dispense with the
mini pumps in the display section?

> A closed loop is the best way to achieve this and its inputs/outputs
> can easily be drilled if you use acrylic for your partition.

Yes. Acrylic and pvc are the obvious ways to go for sump structures and
plumbing.
Thomas Bartkus

[davejnz]

A slow flow through the sump has many advantages.First,it allows a
thinner layer
of water to be skimmed over the overflow.This layer of water needs to
be directly fed into a dedicated skimmer chamber(you can use a small
bucket even).This chamber should be just large enough for the skimmer
to sit in.The skimmer will process wastes much more effectively this
way.
The reason why is twofold.First,by having the skimmer in a small
chamber,and with a slower flow rate,the skimmer is able to process
the water/organics before they have time to migrate to the surface or
flow right by(high current sumps).By placing the skimmer in a
chamber/vessel/bucket,this will provide a constant water level which
is imperative for a skimmer to work properly.The slower flow will
also have less bubbles and turbulence that can hinder a skimmers
performance.
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[davejnz]

> How can you have a high water flow through the sump without an
*identical*
> flow blasting back to the display on the return line?

With an in-tank-sump,you could incorporate a closed loop with the
pump being housed in the sump partition.This pump will be directly
plumbed into 2 or more bulkheads that you install in the
partition.The water circulated through this "loop" is isolated from
the sump/return because of how it is plumbed.
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