Bettas and Temperature

[Dan White]

Hi. I last posted about what kind of small tank to get for my new betta. I
ended up with an Eclipse corner 5 tank (5 gal). I also picked up a 25 watt
heater as I was concerned about temp changes even though someone here said
his 3 gal didn't fluctuate at all. I guess the lfs guy talked me into it,
plus getting a heater seems the right thing to do anyway.

So, I hook everything up and find out that tank is running at about 83-84
degrees F. It was even this warm in the early morning before any lights
were on. I have to assume the motor is generating a lot of heat as the
apartment is only about 72. I know bettas like it warm (80?) but am I
getting into a problem with oxygen content and/or stress at this high a
temp? Also, if I want to put any other fish in there, I will have a problem
unless I get the temp down.

Oh, and the thermometer isn't even on. It was this warm before I put the
thermometer in.

Thanks for any input,
dwhite

[Daniel Morrow]

Bottom posted.


"Dan White" > wrote in message
...
> Hi. I last posted about what kind of small tank to get for my new betta.
I
> ended up with an Eclipse corner 5 tank (5 gal). I also picked up a 25
watt
> heater as I was concerned about temp changes even though someone here said
> his 3 gal didn't fluctuate at all. I guess the lfs guy talked me into it,
> plus getting a heater seems the right thing to do anyway.
>
> So, I hook everything up and find out that tank is running at about 83-84
> degrees F. It was even this warm in the early morning before any lights
> were on. I have to assume the motor is generating a lot of heat as the
> apartment is only about 72. I know bettas like it warm (80?) but am I
> getting into a problem with oxygen content and/or stress at this high a
> temp? Also, if I want to put any other fish in there, I will have a
problem
> unless I get the temp down.
>
> Oh, and the thermometer isn't even on. It was this warm before I put the
> thermometer in.
>
> Thanks for any input,
> dwhite
>
>

Someone here should have already warned you about that problem - it is
common with the eclipses, like you said the semi-submersible motor those
models use generate a lot of heat. The motor is primarily used for
filtration, including biofiltration via the biowheel - biowheels are the
best biological filters in my opinion, even undergravel filters aren't quite
as good even in optimal conditions. There is a previous thread (check google
usenet/newsgroup archives via searching google groups including the entire
usenet/newsgroup information) here about how the semi-submersed motor
generates a relatively large amount of heat and warms the water in the
eclipses. There are other potential problems with these models such as
cracking of the plastic motor housing possibly exposing the owner to harmful
electricity in the tank's water, I am pretty sure that post about the
cracking is in the archives too. You need to make a decision - are these
problems and potential problems worth it? I myself would return it for
another similar but different tank/complete kit and get one that does not
have a submersed motor (the heat problem is strange because a small
powerhead, which is similar to the semi-submersed motor, only has a minimal
effect on similar sized tank's temperatures - go figure) even if it doesn't
look as pretty. In fact I recommend you strike a balance between total
prettiness less customizable (an eclipse system tank) and ugly totally
customizable. Get a small tank and use a 25 (or less) watt thermostat (in
other words - automatic) controlled heater instead of using the eclipse
systems tank (I love marineland, the brand, but in light of these problems
they are having with their eclipse systems I'd say the eclipse systems are
junk). For a filter I would use something like a hagen brand elite mini
submersible. For a light for plants I would use a table lamp with a
fluorescent light over the tank's surface far enough away to prevent raising
the temperature too much. Summary = generic is best in my opinion not only
with computers but with aquarium setups.

Bettas can stand temperatures between 68 and 90 degrees fahrenheit but
proper breeding temperature is 78 degrees fahrenheit. Good luck with making
your decision, I hope for the best for you and your pet fish betta - which
probably is very beautiful. They make wonderful pets. Later!

[NetMax]

"Dan White" > wrote in message
...
> Hi. I last posted about what kind of small tank to get for my new
> betta. I
> ended up with an Eclipse corner 5 tank (5 gal). I also picked up a 25
> watt
> heater as I was concerned about temp changes even though someone here
> said
> his 3 gal didn't fluctuate at all. I guess the lfs guy talked me into
> it,
> plus getting a heater seems the right thing to do anyway.
>
> So, I hook everything up and find out that tank is running at about
> 83-84
> degrees F. It was even this warm in the early morning before any
> lights
> were on. I have to assume the motor is generating a lot of heat as the
> apartment is only about 72. I know bettas like it warm (80?) but am I
> getting into a problem with oxygen content and/or stress at this high a
> temp? Also, if I want to put any other fish in there, I will have a
> problem
> unless I get the temp down.
>
> Oh, and the thermometer isn't even on. It was this warm before I put
> the
> thermometer in.
>
> Thanks for any input,
> dwhite


Unfortunately a typical characteristic of these tanks is that the motor
add a few degrees to the water. Easiest solution is sometimes to place
the tank in a cooler spot. Most worrisome is the temperature difference
caused by the lights, as this is cyclical and more stressful to the fish.
Relocating/venting the ballast or venting the tank might be more trouble
than it is worth, ymmv, but imnsho, small tanks are a PITA.
--
www.NetMax.tk

[Larry Blanchard]

Daniel Morrow wrote:

> In fact I recommend you strike a balance between total
> prettiness less customizable (an eclipse system tank) and ugly totally
> customizable. Get a small tank and use a 25 (or less) watt thermostat (in
> other words - automatic) controlled heater instead of using the eclipse
> systems tank (I love marineland, the brand, but in light of these problems
> they are having with their eclipse systems I'd say the eclipse systems are
> junk). For a filter I would use something like a hagen brand elite mini
> submersible. For a light for plants I would use a table lamp with a
> fluorescent light over the tank's surface far enough away to prevent raising
> the temperature too much.

Another alternative. Get a generic 10 gallon. Get the incandescent
hood and use two 10watt screw-in fluorescent bulbs in it. Use a
submersible heater (25 or 50 watt) and an Aquaclear hang-on-back filter.

Submersible filters work, but they are visible and harder to clean.

And if you really want to grow plants, use EcoComplete for a substrate
instead of plain gravel and dose with Flourish Excel and a supplement
like Leaf Zone or the Fluorish eauivalent.

I'm no expert, but these are the things that have worked for me.

[Elaine T]

Dan White wrote:
> Hi. I last posted about what kind of small tank to get for my new betta. I
> ended up with an Eclipse corner 5 tank (5 gal). I also picked up a 25 watt
> heater as I was concerned about temp changes even though someone here said
> his 3 gal didn't fluctuate at all. I guess the lfs guy talked me into it,
> plus getting a heater seems the right thing to do anyway.
>
> So, I hook everything up and find out that tank is running at about 83-84
> degrees F. It was even this warm in the early morning before any lights
> were on. I have to assume the motor is generating a lot of heat as the
> apartment is only about 72. I know bettas like it warm (80?) but am I
> getting into a problem with oxygen content and/or stress at this high a
> temp? Also, if I want to put any other fish in there, I will have a problem
> unless I get the temp down.
>
> Oh, and the thermometer isn't even on. It was this warm before I put the
> thermometer in.
>
> Thanks for any input,
> dwhite
>
>
The good news is that it's impossible to oxygen starve a betta that has
access to the surface. They breathe air, remember? ;-) Your betta
should do just fine in that tank. I prefer to keep bettas at 76-80F but
my understanding is that betta breeders generally keep the temperature
well over 80F.

As for other fish, the biowheel will oxygenate the water, and many of
the small tetras, rasboras, and corydoras can live in water up to 85F.
Try searching for lists of fish which are compatible with discus. You
will have to stock more lightly than you would at 75F and watch
carefully for any signs of low oxygen as you add fish.

--
Elaine T __
http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><
rec.aquaria.* FAQ http://faq.thekrib.com

[Steve]

Dan White wrote:
> Hi. I last posted about what kind of small tank to get for my new betta. I
> ended up with an Eclipse corner 5 tank (5 gal). I also picked up a 25 watt
> heater as I was concerned about temp changes even though someone here said
> his 3 gal didn't fluctuate at all. I guess the lfs guy talked me into it,
> plus getting a heater seems the right thing to do anyway.
>
> So, I hook everything up and find out that tank is running at about 83-84
> degrees F. It was even this warm in the early morning before any lights
> were on. I have to assume the motor is generating a lot of heat as the
> apartment is only about 72. I know bettas like it warm (80?) but am I
> getting into a problem with oxygen content and/or stress at this high a
> temp? Also, if I want to put any other fish in there, I will have a problem
> unless I get the temp down.
>
> Oh, and the thermometer isn't even on. It was this warm before I put the
> thermometer in.
>
> Thanks for any input,
> dwhite
>
>

Just to commiserate, my Eclipse two-light hood with Biowheel on a 15-gal
goldfish aquarium generates lots of heat. The aquarium rarely goes below
75 degrees F and in summer can get way to hot (90 F plus). I've removed
the heater from this tank.

In summer, I used to prop up the front lid with some plastic bits, but
the cats like it on top of the aquarium and broke the hood hinges and
lamp attachments. The Eclipse hood's been fixed with screws and a bit of
wood, and I drilled quite a few 1/4 inch ventilation holes in the
vertical sides of the hood to help with cooling.

My Eclipse generates quite a strong current, which I minimize by
directing the water outflow towards an aquarium side.

How's the water flow on the 5 gal "corner" tank? Any concern that it's
strong for a Betta?

Steve

[Dan White]

etMax wrote:
> "Dan White" > wrote in message
> ...
>> Hi. I last posted about what kind of small tank to get for my new
>> betta. I
>> ended up with an Eclipse corner 5 tank (5 gal). I also picked up a
>> 25 watt
>> heater as I was concerned about temp changes even though someone here
>> said
>> his 3 gal didn't fluctuate at all. I guess the lfs guy talked me
>> into it,
>> plus getting a heater seems the right thing to do anyway.
>>
>> So, I hook everything up and find out that tank is running at about
>> 83-84
>> degrees F. It was even this warm in the early morning before any
>> lights
>> were on. I have to assume the motor is generating a lot of heat as
>> the apartment is only about 72. I know bettas like it warm (80?)
>> but am I getting into a problem with oxygen content and/or stress at
>> this high a temp? Also, if I want to put any other fish in there, I
>> will have a problem
>> unless I get the temp down.
>>
>> Oh, and the thermometer isn't even on. It was this warm before I put
>> the
>> thermometer in.
>>
>> Thanks for any input,
>> dwhite
>
>
> Unfortunately a typical characteristic of these tanks is that the
> motor add a few degrees to the water. Easiest solution is sometimes
> to place the tank in a cooler spot. Most worrisome is the
> temperature difference caused by the lights, as this is cyclical and
> more stressful to the fish. Relocating/venting the ballast or venting
> the tank might be more trouble than it is worth, ymmv, but imnsho,
> small tanks are a PITA.

Guess I should have waited for more feedback before getting this thing all
set up!

I lowered the water level to just beneath the motor and propped the lid open
a bit, so I would think that should drop the temp some. I may just return
the whole thing.

thanks,
dwhite

[Dan White]

Elaine T wrote:
> Dan White wrote:
>>
>> Oh, and the thermometer isn't even on. It was this warm before I
>> put the thermometer in.

Of course I meant 25w heater, not thermometer.

> As for other fish, the biowheel will oxygenate the water,

Hadn't thought of that. Of course that makes sense!

dwhite

[Dan White]

Steve wrote:
> Dan White wrote:
>
> My Eclipse generates quite a strong current, which I minimize by
> directing the water outflow towards an aquarium side.
>
> How's the water flow on the 5 gal "corner" tank? Any concern that it's
> strong for a Betta?
>

Hi. I was watching the current for awhile, and it doesn't seem bad.
Sometimes he swims in front of the discharge, and gets pushed around a bit,
but I'd say most of the surface has a slow current. Further down the tank
there's no current to speak of.

dwhite

[Alpha]

I think people need to really measure what heat is introduced by the Eclipse
system. I have a number of them, and this perception is mostly wrong.
Wrong. As Netmax indicated, at most a couple of degrees. At most.

[Steve]

Alpha wrote:
> I think people need to really measure what heat is introduced by the Eclipse
> system. I have a number of them, and this perception is mostly wrong.
> Wrong. As Netmax indicated, at most a couple of degrees. At most.
>
>
>

It's 9:50 am, and the lights have been on about 3 hours. House
temperature is 68 degrees F.

There are two unheated, 15-gal goldfish aquariums, one above the other.
They have identical stick-on thermometers on the outside, from which
I'll read the temperatures.

Upper aquarium: 78 degrees F, Eclipse system w/ 2, 15-watt fluorescents.

Lower aquarium: 74 degrees F, Aquaclear 200 filter, one 20-watt
fluorescent lamp in home-made wooden box.

In summer, with higher house temperature, the temperature difference
between tanks seems more pronounced.

I'm not complaining about the Eclipse. I've had it 5-6 years and it
provides strong filtration and adequate lighting. I have considered
going to a taller 20-25 gallon aquarium, but never got a round to it. A
bigger tank would likely be less affected by the filter motor heat...

Steve

[default]

Hmmmm, very interseting thread. I've got a 3 gallon Eclipse System 3.
I work in a large open factory. My workspace is called the fishbowl,
fittingly enough. I'm in a walled area of the factory set up for
office space. The ceiling is open to the highbay factory roof. In the
morning, my office space is quite cool, like jacket on cool. I'm not
there overnight but I can imagine it cools gradually through the night
to reach the morning cold temps. Because of this I bought a small 25
watt heater. Over a months time I kept adjusting the dial down because
the tank stayed about 82 F. I have the lights on a timer for 11 hours
a day and the heat creeps up during the day because of this. My
epiphany came when I left the lights off an entire day with the heater
set at 65 deg. The tank temp was 82 degrees all day. I took the
heater out. You guessed it, 82 degrees. I opened the lid and left it
open for a few days. The temp stabilized at 78 degrees during the day
with the light on. The ambient temp in the office area is about 60-65
degrees during the day.

Based on these observations I can attest to these facts.

The System 3 is perfect for my office.
It keeps a steady temp of 76-78 degrees F throughout the day and night
with no heater.
The supplied 3 watt flo tube light is perfect for growing Anubias, java
fern and even Ludwigia.
I have pictuers to prove it:
http://www.geocities.com/erviservy/CubicleFeb10c.jpg

I've taken a very recent picture and I'll post that soon.

steve

[Daniel Morrow]

Bottom posted.


"Larry Blanchard" > wrote in message
...

> Another alternative. Get a generic 10 gallon. Get the incandescent
> hood and use two 10watt screw-in fluorescent bulbs in it. Use a
> submersible heater (25 or 50 watt) and an Aquaclear hang-on-back filter.
>
> Submersible filters work, but they are visible and harder to clean.
>
> And if you really want to grow plants, use EcoComplete for a substrate
> instead of plain gravel and dose with Flourish Excel and a supplement
> like Leaf Zone or the Fluorish eauivalent.
>
> I'm no expert, but these are the things that have worked for me.

An all-glass type generic glass aquarium sized at 10 gallons only costs me
11 dollars (usa) each at my local department (in-town) store. Pretty cool
how cheap those things are now. Good luck and later!

[NetMax]

"Alpha" > wrote in message
...
>I think people need to really measure what heat is introduced by the
>Eclipse system. I have a number of them, and this perception is mostly
>wrong. Wrong. As Netmax indicated, at most a couple of degrees. At
>most.


..... a 'few' degrees, and it would really vary according to the size of
the tank, and the delta (difference between it and the ambient). I found
the smaller tanks had a more pronounced jump in temperature due to the
lighting, and a greater difference due to the motor housing. Larger
tanks are not affected to the same degree, and if the room is very cold,
the overall effect is decreased on all tank sizes. Small plastic tanks
from other manufacturers using powerhead-type pumps have the same
characteristic. The filter motor becomes a continuous heat source (which
in a consistently cool location can work out fine). It's the heat from
the lighting which is more of a nuisance, especially in small tanks in
very warm environments (but then lighting heat is always a nuisance in
hot environments ;~).
--
www.NetMax.tk

[Larry Blanchard]

Daniel Morrow wrote:
>
> "Larry Blanchard" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>
>> Another alternative. Get a generic 10 gallon. Get the
>> incandescent hood and use two 10watt screw-in fluorescent bulbs in
>> it. Use a submersible heater (25 or 50 watt) and an Aquaclear
>> hang-on-back filter.

>
> An all-glass type generic glass aquarium sized at 10 gallons only
> costs me 11 dollars (usa) each at my local department (in-town)
> store. Pretty cool how cheap those things are now. Good luck and
> later!
>

They're $9.95 at PetsMart and PetCo.

Just saw an 18 gallon at PetsMart for under $25. Same footprint as a 10
gallon, but almost twice as high. Should be great for growing plants.

[IDzine01]

Hmm this thread made me curious.

Ok,
Eclipse 6.... air temp is 69F tank temp is....

71F. Ok, so there is a couple of degrees difference.


The heater's not plugged in. I might have to get to that soon. It's a
bit too cold for my betta.
One thing I want to point out to Dan... The eclipse filters tend to
stop if you lower the water level even a little.
It's really meant to be filled to the top.

[Dan White]

"IDzine01" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> Hmm this thread made me curious.
>
> Ok,
> Eclipse 6.... air temp is 69F tank temp is....
>
> 71F. Ok, so there is a couple of degrees difference.
>
>
> The heater's not plugged in. I might have to get to that soon. It's a
> bit too cold for my betta.
> One thing I want to point out to Dan... The eclipse filters tend to
> stop if you lower the water level even a little.
> It's really meant to be filled to the top.
>

Thanks. I've kept a close eye on the circulation, and it has been running
OK for two days now. Temp is down to 78, but I think that is more due to
the cold weather today than anything else. Lowering the level didn't seem
to do much.

thanks,
dwhite