Help - Two Basic Questions

[Timcat]

In all my reading, I have failed to find answers to the following:
1) What is the general rule of thumb for water volume turnover per hour in a
marine tank? I have heard anywhere from 2 to 10 times per hour.
2) How do you calculate the bio-load of non-fish critters (crabs, snails,
tube worms, etc.)? While I have seen numerous rules of thumb for fish (based
on gallons, surface area, etc), I have seen nothing referencing the load
other animals place on the system. Surely adding a sizeable cleaning crew,
tube worms, corals, etc. adds a measurable load on the system.

Thanks,
Tim

[Pszemol]

"Timcat" > wrote in message ...
> In all my reading, I have failed to find answers to the following:
> 1) What is the general rule of thumb for water volume turnover per hour
> in a marine tank? I have heard anywhere from 2 to 10 times per hour.

Such rule does not exists. It cannot exist since the water movement
will have to be adjusted to the liking of animals you keep in the tank.
Some soft corals prefer slow, almost stagnant water some other, mostly
hard corals, prefer strong and alternating currents...

First decide on what corals you want to keep and then build the tank
suitable for them. The best idea is to recreate single biotope
in the tank and collect only animals which live together in Nature.
This way you will not mix Pacific corals with Altantic ones, you do
not mix corals from shalow, bright water with deep water ones etc...
Some of the info you can start reading you will find here:
http://www.nurp.noaa.gov/Spotlight/Backreefs.htm

> 2) How do you calculate the bio-load of non-fish critters (crabs, snails,
> tube worms, etc.)? While I have seen numerous rules of thumb for fish (based
> on gallons, surface area, etc), I have seen nothing referencing the load
> other animals place on the system. Surely adding a sizeable cleaning crew,
> tube worms, corals, etc. adds a measurable load on the system.

Yes, it does... and sizeable cleaning crew has to have sizeable
amounts of food to eat and numbers of crabs, shrimp quickly diminish
if there will be lack of food in the current tank feeding schedule...
I do not know rule of thumb easily replacing experience and "gut feeling"
in this matter... You will have to experiment with this a little before
you will develop your own gut feelings... :-)

[Timcat]

Thanks much. Maybe one day I'll have enough marine aquarium experience to
start answering questions instead of asking them.

Tim

"Pszemol" > wrote in message
...
> "Timcat" > wrote in message
> ...
>> In all my reading, I have failed to find answers to the following:
>> 1) What is the general rule of thumb for water volume turnover per hour
>> in a marine tank? I have heard anywhere from 2 to 10 times per hour.
>
> Such rule does not exists. It cannot exist since the water movement
> will have to be adjusted to the liking of animals you keep in the tank.
> Some soft corals prefer slow, almost stagnant water some other, mostly
> hard corals, prefer strong and alternating currents...
>
> First decide on what corals you want to keep and then build the tank
> suitable for them. The best idea is to recreate single biotope in the tank
> and collect only animals which live together in Nature.
> This way you will not mix Pacific corals with Altantic ones, you do
> not mix corals from shalow, bright water with deep water ones etc...
> Some of the info you can start reading you will find here:
> http://www.nurp.noaa.gov/Spotlight/Backreefs.htm
>
>> 2) How do you calculate the bio-load of non-fish critters (crabs, snails,
>> tube worms, etc.)? While I have seen numerous rules of thumb for fish
>> (based on gallons, surface area, etc), I have seen nothing referencing
>> the load other animals place on the system. Surely adding a sizeable
>> cleaning crew, tube worms, corals, etc. adds a measurable load on the
>> system.
>
> Yes, it does... and sizeable cleaning crew has to have sizeable
> amounts of food to eat and numbers of crabs, shrimp quickly diminish
> if there will be lack of food in the current tank feeding schedule...
> I do not know rule of thumb easily replacing experience and "gut feeling"
> in this matter... You will have to experiment with this a little before
> you will develop your own gut feelings... :-)

[Marc Levenson]

Hi Tim,

For the most part, you'll usually see people recommending a minimum of
10x turnover in the tank if you have fish and softcorals. If you have
LPS, more like 15x to 20x. For SPS corals, 30x turnover or more.

The flow through the sump should be 3x to 5x the volume of the main
tank, so the return pump would be rather slow and need to be
supplemented in the main tank with more powerheads, stream pumps or a
closed loop to create the rest of the turnover necessary.

The 'rule' for snails is supposedly one per gallon. I've always thought
that was crazy, and usually aim for one for every two or three gallons.
That being said, I do buy 100 snails at a time for my reef (280g), and
with the astreas, ceriths, nassarius, stomatellas and more, I'm sure I
have close to one per gallon after all.

Marc



Timcat wrote:
> In all my reading, I have failed to find answers to the following:
> 1) What is the general rule of thumb for water volume turnover per hour in a
> marine tank? I have heard anywhere from 2 to 10 times per hour.
> 2) How do you calculate the bio-load of non-fish critters (crabs, snails,
> tube worms, etc.)? While I have seen numerous rules of thumb for fish (based
> on gallons, surface area, etc), I have seen nothing referencing the load
> other animals place on the system. Surely adding a sizeable cleaning crew,
> tube worms, corals, etc. adds a measurable load on the system.
>
> Thanks,
> Tim
>
>

--
Personal Page: http://www.sparklingfloorservice.com/oanda/index.html
Business Page: http://www.sparklingfloorservice.com
Marine Hobbyist: http://www.melevsreef.com

[Timcat]

Man...I wish I owned an electric company about now! The main reason for my
question was to try to determine the size of the main return pump. I have
lights and a bunch of other stuff (ground probe, etc.) on the way, so with
the exception of a few odds and ends, I'm down to the main pump, power
heads, and skimmer. After seeing the prices for commercial refugiums, I
think I'll devote some quality time with your site and make my own. Your
RO/DI unit I got is just ITCHING to go to work!
Thanks for everything, Marc...and I'd like to thank EVERYONE who has
been kind enough to devote some of their time to my questions during this
journey.

Regards,
Tim

"Marc Levenson" > wrote in message
t...
> Hi Tim,
>
> For the most part, you'll usually see people recommending a minimum of 10x
> turnover in the tank if you have fish and softcorals. If you have LPS,
> more like 15x to 20x. For SPS corals, 30x turnover or more.
>
> The flow through the sump should be 3x to 5x the volume of the main tank,
> so the return pump would be rather slow and need to be supplemented in the
> main tank with more powerheads, stream pumps or a closed loop to create
> the rest of the turnover necessary.
>
> The 'rule' for snails is supposedly one per gallon. I've always thought
> that was crazy, and usually aim for one for every two or three gallons.
> That being said, I do buy 100 snails at a time for my reef (280g), and
> with the astreas, ceriths, nassarius, stomatellas and more, I'm sure I
> have close to one per gallon after all.
>
> Marc
>
>
>
> Timcat wrote:
>> In all my reading, I have failed to find answers to the following:
>> 1) What is the general rule of thumb for water volume turnover per hour
>> in a marine tank? I have heard anywhere from 2 to 10 times per hour.
>> 2) How do you calculate the bio-load of non-fish critters (crabs, snails,
>> tube worms, etc.)? While I have seen numerous rules of thumb for fish
>> (based on gallons, surface area, etc), I have seen nothing referencing
>> the load other animals place on the system. Surely adding a sizeable
>> cleaning crew, tube worms, corals, etc. adds a measurable load on the
>> system.
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Tim
>>
>>
>
> --
> Personal Page: http://www.sparklingfloorservice.com/oanda/index.html
> Business Page: http://www.sparklingfloorservice.com
> Marine Hobbyist: http://www.melevsreef.com

[unclenorm]

Hi Pszemol,
Can you tell me were I can find 'almost stagnant
water' on a reef or anywhere in the ocean for that matter!!!.
The rule of thumb certainly does exist, the flow in
a reef tank should be at least 20 times the volume of the tank in
gallons per hour,
more would be better.
regards,
unclenorm

[Wilbur Slice]

On 1 Nov 2005 17:35:29 -0800, "unclenorm" >
wrote:

>Hi Pszemol,
> Can you tell me were I can find 'almost stagnant
>water' on a reef or anywhere in the ocean for that matter!!!.

Sargasso Sea?


> The rule of thumb certainly does exist, the flow in
>a reef tank should be at least 20 times the volume of the tank in
>gallons per hour,
>more would be better.
>regards,
> unclenorm

[Pszemol]

"unclenorm" > wrote in message oups.com...
> Hi Pszemol,
> Can you tell me were I can find 'almost stagnant
> water' on a reef or anywhere in the ocean for that matter!!!.

Any shallow atoll/lagoon with restricted access to the main
body of the ocean will have almost stagnant water...

Rent some movies from your library about life on reefs
if you cannot dive yourself. You would see slow movement,
literally puddles of water at the recessed water edge with
soft corals, anemones, seastars, octopuses and crustaceans
living with shallow water with no movement at all...

> The rule of thumb certainly does exist, the flow in
> a reef tank should be at least 20 times the volume of the tank
> in gallons per hour,
> more would be better.

20 times or more... interesting. Good luck keeping delicate
soft corals like mushrooms or Xenia in such conditions...
Maybe you should visit some atoll and compare water currents
in the lagoon and outer reef crest, on the ocean side...

[Wayne Sallee]

Actualy 20 times an hour is nothing.

Consider your tank, as a slice of the ocean, and you put a
drifting object in the water, and measured how far it
was in an hour.

Naturaly, how that water flow is applied in the tank makes
a difference :-)

Wayne Sallee
Wayne's Pets



Pszemol wrote on 11/2/2005 11:14 AM:
> "unclenorm" > wrote in message
> oups.com...
>


>> The rule of thumb certainly does exist, the flow in
>> a reef tank should be at least 20 times the volume of the tank
>> in gallons per hour,
>> more would be better.
>
>
> 20 times or more... interesting. Good luck keeping delicate
> soft corals like mushrooms or Xenia in such conditions...
> Maybe you should visit some atoll and compare water currents
> in the lagoon and outer reef crest, on the ocean side...

[Pszemol]

"Wayne Sallee" > wrote in message ...
> Actualy 20 times an hour is nothing.

Let's see... 20 times in 30 gallon 3' tank would give me
two MaxiJets 1200 working together inside the tank...
300gph each. You say this would make a perfect
condition for delicate softies like mushroom corals,
ricordias, xenias etc ? It happens I have 30 gallon tank
and I know by own experience that softies like these
do not like strong currents. In my tank they do best
in the slow water movement areas of the tank, where
they are NOT exposed to water movements at all:
in the corners, behind the rocks etc... And I do not have
600 gph flow, I have one MaxiJet 1200 in my sump
pumping water up (flow is far, far from maximum 300gph)
and one powerhead pumping 160gph across the tank.
I have also one Seaclone skimmer powered with
another MaxiJet 1200, but its flow is also far from
maximum 300gph because of mixing air with water.
I bet if I put two MaxiJets 1200 in my 30 gallon tank
then my mushrooms, ricordias and xenias would not
be happy and would wrinkle away like xenias do when
they are exposed to the direct pump outlets...
Contrary to what you say, they expand best and present
pumped at their maximum volume when I turn the pumps
completely off for maintenance or feeding...

On the other hand, 20 times would be considered very
slow for SPS corals which require strong water movement.

[Wayne Sallee]

Naturaly, how that water flow is applied in the tank makes
a difference :-)

Wayne Sallee
Wayne's Pets


Pszemol wrote on 11/2/2005 8:16 PM:
> "Wayne Sallee" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>> Actualy 20 times an hour is nothing.
>
>
> Let's see... 20 times in 30 gallon 3' tank would give me
> two MaxiJets 1200 working together inside the tank...
> 300gph each. You say this would make a perfect
> condition for delicate softies like mushroom corals,
> ricordias, xenias etc ? It happens I have 30 gallon tank
> and I know by own experience that softies like these
> do not like strong currents. In my tank they do best
> in the slow water movement areas of the tank, where
> they are NOT exposed to water movements at all:
> in the corners, behind the rocks etc... And I do not have
> 600 gph flow, I have one MaxiJet 1200 in my sump
> pumping water up (flow is far, far from maximum 300gph)
> and one powerhead pumping 160gph across the tank.
> I have also one Seaclone skimmer powered with
> another MaxiJet 1200, but its flow is also far from
> maximum 300gph because of mixing air with water.
> I bet if I put two MaxiJets 1200 in my 30 gallon tank
> then my mushrooms, ricordias and xenias would not
> be happy and would wrinkle away like xenias do when
> they are exposed to the direct pump outlets...
> Contrary to what you say, they expand best and present
> pumped at their maximum volume when I turn the pumps
> completely off for maintenance or feeding...
>
> On the other hand, 20 times would be considered very
> slow for SPS corals which require strong water movement.

[Pszemol]

"Wayne Sallee" > wrote in message ...
> Naturaly, how that water flow is applied in the tank makes
> a difference :-)

So I have to make sure I have the strongest flow,
and then need to make sure the flow is not too
strong because my corals would not do good ? :-)

[Wayne Sallee]

Well if that's what you want to do, then go ahead :-)

Wayne Sallee
Wayne's Pets



Pszemol wrote on 11/3/2005 3:05 PM:
> "Wayne Sallee" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>> Naturaly, how that water flow is applied in the tank makes a
>> difference :-)
>
>
> So I have to make sure I have the strongest flow,
> and then need to make sure the flow is not too
> strong because my corals would not do good ? :-)
>

[Pszemol]

"Wayne Sallee" > wrote in message ...
> Well if that's what you want to do, then go ahead :-)

No, this is what you do suggest here.

[Wayne Sallee]

LOL no it's not.

My point is that you can have a hight reef tank turnover
rate without having overly strong current, because it
depends on how the current is applyed.

Most people set up a reef tank with a small pump to pump
water from the sump to the reef tank, and use a small
outlet to increase water movement in the reef tank, then
they add power heads to increase the water movement to
where they want it to be. You look in the tank, and can
wach the same particle go round and round and round.

I like to set up a reef tank with only one water pump. No
other water pumps. Then the water flow goes into the
aquaiurm over the overflow, into the protein skimmer, and
through the sump. And I prefer to use an external
magneticly driven pump. I shoot the water up from the
bottom of the tank in the corner, and it boils up against
the surface of the water in the reef tank, creating a
perfect current.


Wayne Sallee
Wayne's Pets



Pszemol wrote on 11/3/2005 9:23 PM:
> "Wayne Sallee" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>> Well if that's what you want to do, then go ahead :-)
>
>
> No, this is what you do suggest here.

[Marc Levenson]

Do you have a link with images to your tank Wayne? I'd love to see it.

Wayne Sallee wrote:
> I shoot the water up from the bottom of
> the tank in the corner, and it boils up against the surface of the water
> in the reef tank, creating a perfect current.


--
Personal Page: http://www.sparklingfloorservice.com/oanda/index.html
Business Page: http://www.sparklingfloorservice.com
Marine Hobbyist: http://www.melevsreef.com

[Wayne Sallee]

You can see my tank pictures at WayneSallee.com
I don't have any pictures on there yet of my newest tank
(the display tank here in the store). You can see a
picture of the protine skimmer at WaynesPets.com. The
skimer you will see at WayneSallee.com is the first
prototype design, and still running on that tank. I have
pictures of this newest tank, on vhs, but have not gotten
them transfered over to digital.

My old vhs to digital converter won't work on windows xp,
and I puchased a snappy, and my motherboard fried, had to
replace the motherboard. Do't know if it was the fault of
the snappy, but naturaly I'm heasitant to use it now.

Wayne Sallee
Wayne's Pets



Marc Levenson wrote on 11/6/2005 3:39 AM:
> Do you have a link with images to your tank Wayne? I'd love to see it.
>
> Wayne Sallee wrote:
>
>> I shoot the water up from the bottom of the tank in the corner, and it
>> boils up against the surface of the water in the reef tank, creating a
>> perfect current.
>
>
>