Massive fish loss - help!!!

[Gif J. Peg]

I set up my 70 gallon tank in May of this year.
Previous to that I've had a few smaller tanks, and have been
taking care of exotic fish for about 4 years now.
The 70 gallon is a freshwater community tank with
approximately 30 (mainly small) fish that among others
includes Black Skirts, few cats, large (5 year-old Pleco)
some Gouramis, Zebras, Angels, even few regular goldfish who
survived the initial cycling period, etc.

I have not had ANY fish loss with this aquarium until
yesterday.
About two weeks ago I introduced 6 Bleeding Nose Tetras.
Everything was great, as usual, however in a matter of few
hours everything collapsed. The Bleeding Tetras started to
die off one by one. The next morning I noticed that some of
my other fish were acting fairly erratic, I realized that I
had Ich problem in here. By the time I came back from work,
there was a lot of dead and dying fish. I ran several tests
on my water, none showed anything unusual. Very small trace
of ammonia, pH is fine, generally everything checks out. I
removed the carbon insert and added some Ich Guard II, but
now the water is slowly clouding over.

The ones that are still alive look very grim, listless and
are covered in spots and gasping for air. Zebras are almost
completely fine, although it seems you can keep them in a
puddle of rain water and they'll thrive, but all other are
showing signs of sickness. I lost all of my Angels and I'm
devastated.
What can I do?
I used to have few other tanks, but sold them all. Still
have another 50 gallon collecting dust, but no filtering
system for it and by the time I get it going all remaining
fish will die.
I did a few water changes and right now I'm trying to slowly
raise the temperature, but without proper aeration (carbon)
I'm probably doing more harm.

I can't figure out why this is happening, but have a
probable cause in mind. Two days ago I had some people
visiting and so I changed my kitty litter ( I have two adult
cats at home as well), and there was some stink as a result,
so to mask it off I sprayed quite a bit of air freshener in
the basement where I also keep the tank, I don't usually do
that, certainly not in the amount I used.
Could this have contaminated the water? The tank is covered
but not the filter area. Please, please help. I can't sleep
at night. This is tragic, I don't want my Pleco to die, well
I don't want any more fish loss period.

Anything you may be able to suggest would mean that you
care. God knows I do. Thanks.
-Darius

[Gill Passman]

Gif J. Peg wrote:
> I set up my 70 gallon tank in May of this year.
> Previous to that I've had a few smaller tanks, and have been
> taking care of exotic fish for about 4 years now.
> The 70 gallon is a freshwater community tank with
> approximately 30 (mainly small) fish that among others
> includes Black Skirts, few cats, large (5 year-old Pleco)
> some Gouramis, Zebras, Angels, even few regular goldfish who
> survived the initial cycling period, etc.
>
> I have not had ANY fish loss with this aquarium until
> yesterday.
> About two weeks ago I introduced 6 Bleeding Nose Tetras.
> Everything was great, as usual, however in a matter of few
> hours everything collapsed. The Bleeding Tetras started to
> die off one by one. The next morning I noticed that some of
> my other fish were acting fairly erratic, I realized that I
> had Ich problem in here. By the time I came back from work,
> there was a lot of dead and dying fish. I ran several tests
> on my water, none showed anything unusual. Very small trace
> of ammonia, pH is fine, generally everything checks out. I
> removed the carbon insert and added some Ich Guard II, but
> now the water is slowly clouding over.
>
> The ones that are still alive look very grim, listless and
> are covered in spots and gasping for air. Zebras are almost
> completely fine, although it seems you can keep them in a
> puddle of rain water and they'll thrive, but all other are
> showing signs of sickness. I lost all of my Angels and I'm
> devastated.
> What can I do?
> I used to have few other tanks, but sold them all. Still
> have another 50 gallon collecting dust, but no filtering
> system for it and by the time I get it going all remaining
> fish will die.
> I did a few water changes and right now I'm trying to slowly
> raise the temperature, but without proper aeration (carbon)
> I'm probably doing more harm.
>
> I can't figure out why this is happening, but have a
> probable cause in mind. Two days ago I had some people
> visiting and so I changed my kitty litter ( I have two adult
> cats at home as well), and there was some stink as a result,
> so to mask it off I sprayed quite a bit of air freshener in
> the basement where I also keep the tank, I don't usually do
> that, certainly not in the amount I used.
> Could this have contaminated the water? The tank is covered
> but not the filter area. Please, please help. I can't sleep
> at night. This is tragic, I don't want my Pleco to die, well
> I don't want any more fish loss period.
>
> Anything you may be able to suggest would mean that you
> care. God knows I do. Thanks.
> -Darius
>
>
Firstly sorry that you are losing so many fish :-( I know how you feel
after losing a lot of fish when the filter failed when I was on holiday
- including my troupe of clown loaches - you do/can get attached to fish
whatever anyone says.

My guess is that the Ich came in with the Rummy Noses (or the water they
were in). The stress of the ammonia along with any contaminants from the
air freshener has resulted in a major outbreak - however IME I wouldn't
have expected the fatalaties to occur so quickly with otherwise healthy
fish (maybe one or two of the smaller ones but not your larger ones) -
I've had treatment resistant Ich going on for a good two/three weeks
without losses (One LFS reckons they have weakened the strength of the
meds because of EU regs). I would think it pretty likely that the Air
Freshener has contaminated the water - personally I don't use it at all
as it gives me an alergic reaction so I can imagine what it might do to
fish...but to be fair things happen - I wouldn't use fly spray and I'm
very careful with furniture polish but I'd not thought about air
freshener use.

So working on the principle that the root cause was the Air Freshener I
would do some large water changes (probably 40% to start and then 10-20%
for the next few days - this is what I did when I lost my filter) and
try and get as much fresh air as you can through the basement (in case
there is any residue in the air). If it isn't the Air Freshener this
would also help the Ich/Ammonia. Another option would be to set up the
50gall again and use your existing filter on this tank and move the
remaining fish into this and then set up the 70gall again. As long as
your bacteria is OK (and not killed off by the Air Freshener hence the
ammonia) this should work.

I'm curious as to why you are still seeing traces of ammonia in a tank
that has been running since May? Has it always been this way or just
since adding the tetras? Or has it been like this since the Air
Freshener episode? It would be useful if you could post some values for
nitrites and ammonia along with your pH.

Hope some of this helps
Gill

[Ali Day]

> Gif J. Peg wrote:

>> Very small trace
>> of ammonia, pH is fine, generally everything checks out. I
>> removed the carbon insert and added some Ich Guard II, but
>> now the water is slowly clouding over.

Couple of points, you said you realised? have they got white spot?

The cloudy water this to me is a big issue is it white or green cloudy
water? White suggest bacterial problem and somehow your tank could be
recycling. The fact there is trace ammonium there could be a clue.

Let us know your nitrogen levels.

>> I did a few water changes and right now I'm trying to slowly
>> raise the temperature, but without proper aeration (carbon)
>> I'm probably doing more harm.

Don't understand, carbon is not aeration do you mean you inject CO2. Why
raise the temperature? are you putting in cold water? can you not do it
directly from the tap giving liberal doses of stress coat etc? Tap
parameters different?


>> Please, please help. I can't sleep
>> at night. This is tragic, I don't want my Pleco to die, well
>> I don't want any more fish loss period.

I know what your going through.

"Gill Passman" > wrote in message
.. .
> So working on the principle that the root cause was the Air Freshener I
> would do some large water changes (probably 40% to start and then 10-20%
> for the next few days

Even is it isn't the air freshner, I certainly agree with Gill and the water
changes but my suggestion, would be instead of doing 40% in one big hit,
which could push already stressed fish over the edge, to maybe doing 10%
every three - four hours.

Keep checking your levels, if it is white spot, you have the carbon out,
keep medicating.


Keep us informed

A

[[email protected]]

Here is an update.
BTW, thanks to everyone who replied.
I tested the water again and here are the results. They are not much
different from previous.
pH (low range)- 7.4
Ammonia - 0.1 I can almost say none, but I am a graphic designer really
keen on color, so it may look like a white (none) reading to most, but
I'd say I see a very slight shade of yellow.
Nitrate - 0.15
Hardness - about 200
Temperature - 78

Currently there are about 12 fish (out of 30) left in the tank, some
are still doing very poorly, some seem to be not effected much. One
gold fish is completely covered in fuzz and breathing rapidly. Pleco
has some spots but looks fine otherwise.

Water is cloudy, although not as bad as it was, mind you I see some
fuzz sticking to the inner glass in some spots and some very fine
particles floating in the water, but since I just changed it again, it
could be just disturbance.
I'm changing about 10% of water every 12 hours. At this point no Ick
Guard is present in the water, carbon filter has been reinserted this
morning.
Tank looks like a war zone. Like I said I am devastated, but still
hopeful.

Anyone else with any ideas? Should I continue using Ick Guard II?
Are there any other effective parasite removers I should try?
Thank you in advance.
-Darius
?

[Elaine T]

wrote:
> Here is an update.
> BTW, thanks to everyone who replied.
> I tested the water again and here are the results. They are not much
> different from previous.
> pH (low range)- 7.4
> Ammonia - 0.1 I can almost say none, but I am a graphic designer really
> keen on color, so it may look like a white (none) reading to most, but
> I'd say I see a very slight shade of yellow.
> Nitrate - 0.15
> Hardness - about 200
> Temperature - 78
>
> Currently there are about 12 fish (out of 30) left in the tank, some
> are still doing very poorly, some seem to be not effected much. One
> gold fish is completely covered in fuzz and breathing rapidly. Pleco
> has some spots but looks fine otherwise.
>
> Water is cloudy, although not as bad as it was, mind you I see some
> fuzz sticking to the inner glass in some spots and some very fine
> particles floating in the water, but since I just changed it again, it
> could be just disturbance.
> I'm changing about 10% of water every 12 hours. At this point no Ick
> Guard is present in the water, carbon filter has been reinserted this
> morning.
> Tank looks like a war zone. Like I said I am devastated, but still
> hopeful.
>
> Anyone else with any ideas? Should I continue using Ick Guard II?
> Are there any other effective parasite removers I should try?
> Thank you in advance.
> -Darius
> ?
>

You mention fuzz on the glass and goldfish. Often fine, cottony fuzz is
Flexibacter columnaris. It's a bacterial disease that is usually fairly
slow to kill fish but can cause devastating wipeouts if you get a
virulent strain in the tank. The ich infection may be secondary to the
flexibacter. Felexibacter is nasty becase it can sometimes cause sepsis
without any external sign, thus the sudden collapse of your tank.

Are any other fish fuzzy or have whitish patches that aren't ich? In
particular, look for whitish patches at the mouth, gills, or on the back
and base of the dorsal fin. Also, how do the tetras you introduced
look, or are they gone? I suspect the ich is a secondary problem but
nonetheless one you will have to control.

You may want to feed an antibiotic food along with using the ich
medicine if you think you might have Flexibacter in the tank.
Kanamycin, oxytetracycline, or furanace are good for Flexibacter.
Tri-sulfa is generally not.

--
Elaine T __
http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><
rec.aquaria.* FAQ http://faq.thekrib.com

[Lord Don]

"Elaine T" > wrote in message
...
> wrote:
>> Here is an update.
>> BTW, thanks to everyone who replied.
>> I tested the water again and here are the results. They are not much
>> different from previous.
>> pH (low range)- 7.4
>> Ammonia - 0.1 I can almost say none, but I am a graphic designer really
>> keen on color, so it may look like a white (none) reading to most, but
>> I'd say I see a very slight shade of yellow.
>> Nitrate - 0.15
>> Hardness - about 200
>> Temperature - 78
>>
>> Currently there are about 12 fish (out of 30) left in the tank, some
>> are still doing very poorly, some seem to be not effected much. One
>> gold fish is completely covered in fuzz and breathing rapidly. Pleco
>> has some spots but looks fine otherwise.
>>
>> Water is cloudy, although not as bad as it was, mind you I see some
>> fuzz sticking to the inner glass in some spots and some very fine
>> particles floating in the water, but since I just changed it again, it
>> could be just disturbance.
>> I'm changing about 10% of water every 12 hours. At this point no Ick
>> Guard is present in the water, carbon filter has been reinserted this
>> morning.
>> Tank looks like a war zone. Like I said I am devastated, but still
>> hopeful.
>>
>> Anyone else with any ideas? Should I continue using Ick Guard II?
>> Are there any other effective parasite removers I should try?
>> Thank you in advance.
>> -Darius
>> ?
>>
>
> You mention fuzz on the glass and goldfish. Often fine, cottony fuzz is
> Flexibacter columnaris. It's a bacterial disease that is usually fairly
> slow to kill fish but can cause devastating wipeouts if you get a virulent
> strain in the tank. The ich infection may be secondary to the
> flexibacter. Felexibacter is nasty becase it can sometimes cause sepsis
> without any external sign, thus the sudden collapse of your tank.
>
> Are any other fish fuzzy or have whitish patches that aren't ich? In
> particular, look for whitish patches at the mouth, gills, or on the back
> and base of the dorsal fin. Also, how do the tetras you introduced look,
> or are they gone? I suspect the ich is a secondary problem but
> nonetheless one you will have to control.
>
> You may want to feed an antibiotic food along with using the ich medicine
> if you think you might have Flexibacter in the tank. Kanamycin,
> oxytetracycline, or furanace are good for Flexibacter. Tri-sulfa is
> generally not.
>
> --
> Elaine T __
> http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><
> rec.aquaria.* FAQ http://faq.thekrib.com


Yep may not be whitespot at all.
That siad I would keep medicating for a while without carbon.
Also take into account any driftwood as it does seem to soak malachite green
outta the water.
The cloudy water says to me that you have given the filter a good clean
(maybe even under the sink) and added too much new stock.
For whitespot it is important to get the temperature up, increase the
aeration (surface agitation) and keep the meds in the right concentrations
to give the parasite a hard time.