Dreaded Newbie questions...

[Liz]

Hi all,

I'm new here and new to fish-keeping and have a question for you.
First some background... After what I thought was adequate research
(isn't that always the way?) and after talking to some folks in fish
stores, I decided not to get a tank because everyone said you'd better
start out with at least 55 gallons, and I couldn't justify the cost
without knowing whether I wouuld really enjoy it. My husband, who
can't stand it when I want something but won't get it, sneaked out and
brought me a 10-gallon (US) tank with most of the necessities. How can
you say no to that? So, here I am...

You can see the tank with decorations (fake plants) and the shadows of
3 harlequin rasboras (the 3 neon tetras are hiding) here:
http://www.lizmcguireonline.com/tank.jpg -- I opened the blinds and
turned on all the lights to get the photo - it's not normally anything
like this bright (sorry about the reflections - it's a cheap digital).
The left side of the tank (as you look at the photo) has a 15W (I
think) florescent light, no light on the right side of the tank. Room
light is generally a florescent light coming from the kitchen (to the
left again) (no wall between the kitchen and the room the tank is in
(family room)). We never open the blinds (across the room from the
tank, no direct sun) and don't normally turn on the ceiling light in
the family room.

Question: I've noticed that both the rasboras and the neons (more
especially the neons) seem to like it better with the tank light off -
that is, the neons will come out of hiding at the back / right side of
the tank if I turn the light off (not that they never come out with the
light on, just they spend more time out with the light off). From what
I've read, this is normal for neons. So, is keeping the light on
_necessary_? I know if I had plants I'd need it, but do the fish need
the tank light vs. just room lights? If so, what's the minimum number
of light-hours that they need?

Now to complicate that, eventually I'd like to get a pair of otos to
take care of algae (once there is algae) - is that amount of light
enough for the algae? (I'm assuming I'll feed the otos additional food
besides what algae grows in the tank, but I'm sure they'll want me to
keep the tank setup so that algae will grow for them...)

Thanks for any replies,

Liz

[Elaine T]

Liz wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> I'm new here and new to fish-keeping and have a question for you.
> First some background... After what I thought was adequate research
> (isn't that always the way?) and after talking to some folks in fish
> stores, I decided not to get a tank because everyone said you'd better
> start out with at least 55 gallons, and I couldn't justify the cost
> without knowing whether I wouuld really enjoy it. My husband, who
> can't stand it when I want something but won't get it, sneaked out and
> brought me a 10-gallon (US) tank with most of the necessities. How can
> you say no to that? So, here I am...
>
> You can see the tank with decorations (fake plants) and the shadows of
> 3 harlequin rasboras (the 3 neon tetras are hiding) here:
> http://www.lizmcguireonline.com/tank.jpg -- I opened the blinds and
> turned on all the lights to get the photo - it's not normally anything
> like this bright (sorry about the reflections - it's a cheap digital).
> The left side of the tank (as you look at the photo) has a 15W (I
> think) florescent light, no light on the right side of the tank. Room
> light is generally a florescent light coming from the kitchen (to the
> left again) (no wall between the kitchen and the room the tank is in
> (family room)). We never open the blinds (across the room from the
> tank, no direct sun) and don't normally turn on the ceiling light in
> the family room.
>
> Question: I've noticed that both the rasboras and the neons (more
> especially the neons) seem to like it better with the tank light off -
> that is, the neons will come out of hiding at the back / right side of
> the tank if I turn the light off (not that they never com

Congrats on your new tank! I hope you enjoy your little pets.

Fish can live just fine with only ambient light. Chances are that you
will not grow enough algae for Otos, and they are very difficult to feed
on prepared foods. Even if you do have Otos, they don't keep you from
having to scrape algae off the glass - no fish does that good of a job.
Otos are particularly good at eating otherwise unremovable fuzzy grean
algae from live plant leaves, which makes them valuable in planted tanks.

--
Elaine T __
http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><
rec.aquaria.* FAQ http://faq.thekrib.com

[Steve]

Liz wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> I'm new here and new to fish-keeping and have a question for you.
> First some background... After what I thought was adequate research
> (isn't that always the way?) and after talking to some folks in fish
> stores, I decided not to get a tank because everyone said you'd better
> start out with at least 55 gallons, and I couldn't justify the cost
> without knowing whether I wouuld really enjoy it. My husband, who
> can't stand it when I want something but won't get it, sneaked out and
> brought me a 10-gallon (US) tank with most of the necessities. How can
> you say no to that? So, here I am...
>
> You can see the tank with decorations (fake plants) and the shadows of
> 3 harlequin rasboras (the 3 neon tetras are hiding) here:
> http://www.lizmcguireonline.com/tank.jpg -- I opened the blinds and
> turned on all the lights to get the photo - it's not normally anything
> like this bright (sorry about the reflections - it's a cheap digital).
> The left side of the tank (as you look at the photo) has a 15W (I
> think) florescent light, no light on the right side of the tank. Room
> light is generally a florescent light coming from the kitchen (to the
> left again) (no wall between the kitchen and the room the tank is in
> (family room)). We never open the blinds (across the room from the
> tank, no direct sun) and don't normally turn on the ceiling light in
> the family room.
>
> Question: I've noticed that both the rasboras and the neons (more
> especially the neons) seem to like it better with the tank light off -
> that is, the neons will come out of hiding at the back / right side of
> the tank if I turn the light off (not that they never come out with the
> light on, just they spend more time out with the light off). From what
> I've read, this is normal for neons. So, is keeping the light on
> _necessary_? I know if I had plants I'd need it, but do the fish need
> the tank light vs. just room lights? If so, what's the minimum number
> of light-hours that they need?
>
> Now to complicate that, eventually I'd like to get a pair of otos to
> take care of algae (once there is algae) - is that amount of light
> enough for the algae? (I'm assuming I'll feed the otos additional food
> besides what algae grows in the tank, but I'm sure they'll want me to
> keep the tank setup so that algae will grow for them...)
>
> Thanks for any replies,
>
> Liz
>

That's a really nice little aquarium! Fish do not need a lot of light, I
think, and your plastic plants require none. So go with moderate
daylight only, if you like. Or use a low-wattage bulb in your canopy.
Actually, according to my 1930's aquarium book, people ran planted
aquariums succesfully with only daylight. My aquariums are planted, and
they have lots of fluorescent light.

My only advice would be, to continue regular partial water changes,
especially for the first few months. 20% water changed per week should
be ok. Also, don't add any more fish for the first 6 weeks or so - until
the tank has thoroughly cycled. Concentrate on maintaining stable
temperature and water quality (moderate feeding plus regular water
changes...) and things will likely continue to go well with your aquarium.

Many of us started out with 10 gallon aquariums. I did, in 1963 :) .

Steve

[Liz]

Elaine thanks for your comments - about the Otos: are you recommending
I not get them for this tank (perhaps wait for a later/larger tank), or
just explaining that they may be difficult for a beginner, or...?
(Just wanna be sure.)

I didn't get plants cuz my reading indicated it would complicate
matters for a newbie. If all goes well, I plan to upgrade (in a year
or so?) and put plants into a larger tank (70g?) at that time and
expand the community (keep the 10g for a hospital tank) - if it would
be better, I could wait on the Otos (they're awfully cute for fish,
which is why I wanted some - from reading, they also have interesting
personalities, so....).

Thanks,

Liz

[Liz]

Steve,

Thanks for taking a look - I tried to design the tank so it would look
nice to me and be a good home for the fishies... I think I'll reduce
the lighting in the tank (or keep it off if there's no easy way to
reduce it) and observe for a few days to see how the fish behave, then
decide what to do long term.

I also appreciate your advice about the water changes and cycling...
Unfortunately, my research wasn't enough in the beginning, and I lost 3
of 6 neons (I think because I put them in too soon - I thought the tank
was cycled, (via 3 rasboras and a starter bacteria product (both
recommended by the LFS) - had no ammonia, trace nitrite** and little
nitrate). ** The page (came with the test kit, I think) for recording
readings indicated 0 to .25 was acceptable for nitrite - my research
since indicates it's just 0, so that's what I'm working on now.

Anywho, I think the 6 neons overloaded the bio filter (which was strong
enough for 3 rasboras, but not more) and that's how I lost the three.
I'm keeping a close eye on the readings (testing daily) and doing water
changes if the ammonia gets to 1. (I feel kinda bad for putting the
fishies through a trial by fire due to my ignorance, but I'm learning.)

The rasboras are little troopers and have been doing well since they
were added, the three remaining neons seem well too as far as I can
tell - hopefully I'll be able to take proper care of them while the
tank finishes cycling.

Which brings up another question - does a fish's mouth open and close
when they breath or is that strictly eating or...? I've noticed
sometimes that the fishes will be opening and closing their mouths, but
there's no food in the water that I can see, and it's been long enough
since I fed them that I don't think there's really anything there to
eat... Could this be a symptom of a problem or is it normal or....?

Thanks,

Liz

[Justice]

Liz wrote:
> Elaine thanks for your comments - about the Otos: are you recommending
> I not get them for this tank (perhaps wait for a later/larger tank), or
> just explaining that they may be difficult for a beginner, or...?
> (Just wanna be sure.)
>
> I didn't get plants cuz my reading indicated it would complicate
> matters for a newbie. If all goes well, I plan to upgrade (in a year
> or so?) and put plants into a larger tank (70g?) at that time and
> expand the community (keep the 10g for a hospital tank) - if it would
> be better, I could wait on the Otos (they're awfully cute for fish,
> which is why I wanted some - from reading, they also have interesting
> personalities, so....).
>
> Thanks,
>
> Liz
>
No complications with plants, unless you want complications. just get a
timer and easy to care for plants. The plants will use fish waste as
food. wich is not a bad thing. also if you have enogh you don't need a
airstone. but that is where it "CAN" be complicated.

[Elaine T]

Liz wrote:
> Elaine thanks for your comments - about the Otos: are you recommending
> I not get them for this tank (perhaps wait for a later/larger tank), or
> just explaining that they may be difficult for a beginner, or...?
> (Just wanna be sure.)
>
> I didn't get plants cuz my reading indicated it would complicate
> matters for a newbie. If all goes well, I plan to upgrade (in a year
> or so?) and put plants into a larger tank (70g?) at that time and
> expand the community (keep the 10g for a hospital tank) - if it would
> be better, I could wait on the Otos (they're awfully cute for fish,
> which is why I wanted some - from reading, they also have interesting
> personalities, so....).
>
> Thanks,
>
> Liz
>
I couldn't tell whether you wanted them for utility or cuteness. The
are kinda cute, in a catfishy way. Otos require very clean water and
prefer the same soft, neutral to low pH conditions as neons. They ARE
difficult to get acclimated as many are wild-caught and you have to plan
on losses for the first two months or so. After that, they're sturdier.

Some plants are easy - get a few Anubias and some java fern (the great
unkillables), use your existing lighting, and add FloraPride at water
changes. Both grow best tied to lava rock or wood, rather than being
planted in the gravel. You'll get some of the benefits of live plants
with very little hassle.

Sometimes, you can get otos to eat cucumber, lettuce leaves, or algae
wafers, and that's what you'll have to try with lower lighting. Also be
sure you have a bit of real bogwood or driftwood for them to rasp for fiber.

For another REALLY cute catfish that's well-suited to beginners with
small tanks, have you considered cories (Corydoras spp)? Once your tank
cycles, they're great little fish. They have more personality (I think)
than otos and acept just about any prepared or meaty food.

--
Elaine T __
http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><
rec.aquaria.* FAQ http://faq.thekrib.com

[Liz]

Elaine,

Thanks for the tips on an easy way to get started with plants. I've
saved your comments for reference and will take it with me and look at
plants the next time I go to the fish store (I haven't even started
researching plants, so I'll start now). I'll also start researching
the cories more (have read about them, but not as much as otos).
Whatever happens, I'll hold off on the catfish decision until the tank
is good and stable (not quite down to 0 ammonia and 0 nitrite yet).

Justice - thanks for your comments as well. Elaine has given me some
easy plants to look for, but what would the timer be for? (I"ve got
three watches with timers that I use for water testing, so I don't have
a shortage of timers available...).

Thanks for the kind and helpful welcome, everyone.

Liz

[Mary Burns]

"Liz" > wrote in message
ups.com...
> Steve,
>
> Thanks for taking a look - I tried to design the tank so it would look
> nice to me and be a good home for the fishies... I think I'll reduce
> the lighting in the tank (or keep it off if there's no easy way to
> reduce it) and observe for a few days to see how the fish behave, then
> decide what to do long term.
>
> I also appreciate your advice about the water changes and cycling...
> Unfortunately, my research wasn't enough in the beginning, and I lost 3
> of 6 neons (I think because I put them in too soon - I thought the tank
> was cycled, (via 3 rasboras and a starter bacteria product (both
> recommended by the LFS) - had no ammonia, trace nitrite** and little
> nitrate). ** The page (came with the test kit, I think) for recording
> readings indicated 0 to .25 was acceptable for nitrite - my research
> since indicates it's just 0, so that's what I'm working on now.
>
> Anywho, I think the 6 neons overloaded the bio filter (which was strong
> enough for 3 rasboras, but not more) and that's how I lost the three.
> I'm keeping a close eye on the readings (testing daily) and doing water
> changes if the ammonia gets to 1. (I feel kinda bad for putting the
> fishies through a trial by fire due to my ignorance, but I'm learning.)
>
> The rasboras are little troopers and have been doing well since they
> were added, the three remaining neons seem well too as far as I can
> tell - hopefully I'll be able to take proper care of them while the
> tank finishes cycling.
>
> Which brings up another question - does a fish's mouth open and close
> when they breath or is that strictly eating or...? I've noticed
> sometimes that the fishes will be opening and closing their mouths, but
> there's no food in the water that I can see, and it's been long enough
> since I fed them that I don't think there's really anything there to
> eat... Could this be a symptom of a problem or is it normal or....?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Liz
>

It is usually a sign of increased breathing in small fish like neons,
especially as neons can't cycle tanks and don't do very well with even the
lowest levels of ammonia/nitrite. This happens if their gills are irritated.
Mary

[Steve]

Liz wrote:
> Steve,
>
> Thanks for taking a look - I tried to design the tank so it would look
> nice to me and be a good home for the fishies... I think I'll reduce
> the lighting in the tank (or keep it off if there's no easy way to
> reduce it) and observe for a few days to see how the fish behave, then
> decide what to do long term.
>
> I also appreciate your advice about the water changes and cycling...
> Unfortunately, my research wasn't enough in the beginning, and I lost 3
> of 6 neons (I think because I put them in too soon - I thought the tank
> was cycled, (via 3 rasboras and a starter bacteria product (both
> recommended by the LFS) - had no ammonia, trace nitrite** and little
> nitrate). ** The page (came with the test kit, I think) for recording
> readings indicated 0 to .25 was acceptable for nitrite - my research
> since indicates it's just 0, so that's what I'm working on now.
>
> Anywho, I think the 6 neons overloaded the bio filter (which was strong
> enough for 3 rasboras, but not more) and that's how I lost the three.
> I'm keeping a close eye on the readings (testing daily) and doing water
> changes if the ammonia gets to 1. (I feel kinda bad for putting the
> fishies through a trial by fire due to my ignorance, but I'm learning.)
>
> The rasboras are little troopers and have been doing well since they
> were added, the three remaining neons seem well too as far as I can
> tell - hopefully I'll be able to take proper care of them while the
> tank finishes cycling.
>
> Which brings up another question - does a fish's mouth open and close
> when they breath or is that strictly eating or...? I've noticed
> sometimes that the fishes will be opening and closing their mouths, but
> there's no food in the water that I can see, and it's been long enough
> since I fed them that I don't think there's really anything there to
> eat... Could this be a symptom of a problem or is it normal or....?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Liz
>

My rainbowfishes' mouths open and close in a barely noticeable manner,
and my goldfishes' mouths open and close very noticeably. I'm not sure
whether the goldfish are breathing, or gulping in tiny food from the
water surface or the bottom. They're likely doing both. I looked this
up in a book (Aquariology master volume by J.B. Gratzek 1992, Tetra
Press, ISBN 1-56465-105-3). On page 176 under "The Respiratory Pump",
the book says "the water flows in through the open mouth... By timing
this with the closing of the mouth... water is pumped over the gill..."

I'm sorry about your early fish losses due to inadequate cycle. I've had
similar problems in the past, especially before learning about
bacteriological filtration and aquarium cycling.

In any case, please keep enjoying the hobby!

Steve

[Liz]

Mary,

Thank you for catching this question. I was afraid of this. I'll
continue to do my best to keep the levels as low as possible - have
been doing frequent small water changes and increased aeration.

Thanks,

Liz

[Liz]

Steve,

Thanks for taking the time to do some research for me. As mentioned to
Mary, I'm doing my best to keep the levels as low as possible without
drastic 100% water changes.

Despite the early losses, I do plan to keep up the hobby - it's very
relaxing to sit and watch the fishies. :-) I plan to do some
experimenting with the hospital tank in an effort to master the
"fishless cycle" so that if / when I upgrade to a larger tank I can do
it right (and so that the hospital tank is ready to go, if needed).

Thanks,

Liz

[Steve]

Liz wrote:
> Steve,
>
> Thanks for taking the time to do some research for me. As mentioned to
> Mary, I'm doing my best to keep the levels as low as possible without
> drastic 100% water changes.
>
> Despite the early losses, I do plan to keep up the hobby - it's very
> relaxing to sit and watch the fishies. :-) I plan to do some
> experimenting with the hospital tank in an effort to master the
> "fishless cycle" so that if / when I upgrade to a larger tank I can do
> it right (and so that the hospital tank is ready to go, if needed).
>
> Thanks,
>
> Liz
>

For any new aquariums, you can transfer filter media, plants, gravel etc
from your established aquarium to the new tank. In this way, you'll
establish the new aquarium without a serious cycle.
Steve

[Justice]

Liz wrote:
> Elaine,
>
> Thanks for the tips on an easy way to get started with plants. I've
> saved your comments for reference and will take it with me and look at
> plants the next time I go to the fish store (I haven't even started
> researching plants, so I'll start now). I'll also start researching
> the cories more (have read about them, but not as much as otos).
> Whatever happens, I'll hold off on the catfish decision until the tank
> is good and stable (not quite down to 0 ammonia and 0 nitrite yet).
>
> Justice - thanks for your comments as well. Elaine has given me some
> easy plants to look for, but what would the timer be for? (I"ve got
> three watches with timers that I use for water testing, so I don't have
> a shortage of timers available...).
>
> Thanks for the kind and helpful welcome, everyone.
>
> Liz
>
So you don't have to turn on/off the lights yourself. It can bee a pain
in the A## if you have to turn the lights on/off manualy and try to keep
a constant day/night affect for your fish/plants. sorry if I got you
confused with a counting type timer.

[Justice]

Steve wrote:
> Liz wrote:
>
>> Steve,
>>
>> Thanks for taking the time to do some research for me. As mentioned to
>> Mary, I'm doing my best to keep the levels as low as possible without
>> drastic 100% water changes.
>>
>> Despite the early losses, I do plan to keep up the hobby - it's very
>> relaxing to sit and watch the fishies. :-) I plan to do some
>> experimenting with the hospital tank in an effort to master the
>> "fishless cycle" so that if / when I upgrade to a larger tank I can do
>> it right (and so that the hospital tank is ready to go, if needed).
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> Liz
>>
>
> For any new aquariums, you can transfer filter media, plants, gravel etc
> from your established aquarium to the new tank. In this way, you'll
> establish the new aquarium without a serious cycle.
> Steve
Well when I got my 2nd tank I took some gravel and plant from old tank
not the filter media though and it still had a normalish cycle just the
redding were a little lower than a normal cycle an about a week less
time. So in my opinion(I could be wrong still new) the filter media has
more of an affect then the others.

[Liz]

Steve,

Yes, of course, I realized that shortly after I posted.... Silly me.
I'm thinking though that it may be good to do the hospital tank from
scratch instead of bringing over the water (or is that not a concern?).

Thanks,

Liz

[Liz]

D'oh! Of course - timer for the lights. Silly me. Very good idea -
next time we're out an about, I'll look for one.

Thanks too for relating your experience starting a second tank with
material from your first. Fortunately, I've got two filters on the
current tank, so if I change media on different schedules, I should be
able to keep the bacteria levels high, and when it comes time to start
up a new tank, I can use the filter media from one of them (as well as
some of the other stuff)...

Thanks,

Liz

PS: Looked at some plants at one of the LFSs tonight and there are some
very neat ones. Guess I'll have to start planning for plants... :-)