Sick new betta

[Elaine T]

I got a new crowntail betta at a pretty good LFS about two weeks ago,
but I think he's sick. He's in a two gallon hex established tank with a
jungle of fast-growing healthy plants. Temps are 76F, no ammonia or
nitrite; nitrates fertilized to 5 ppm, pH 7.8, hard water. 50% weekly
water changes. The tank is sponge filtered and the water quality is
high enough for the Otocinclus who's been there for well over six months.

The betta looks perfect, but he's lethargic and only picks at his food.
I've offered pellets, live brine shrimp, daphnia, bloodworms, and
glassworms with no luck. He does't flare, swim around much, or
bubblenest. Instead he either rests on tall plants or wedges himself
down on the gravel under the baby's tears, only coming up to take a rare
breath. He doesn't even seem to breathe as much as other bettas, but it
could be that the plants are oxygen saturating the water.

Unfortunately, this LFS only guarantees their fish for 24 hours so I
can't return him. Next time I buy a betta I'm going to ask the store to
feed it first.

Without any external symptoms, I'm at a bit of a loss. I'm inclined to
think it's either a low-level internal infection or ammonia damage from
jarring. Our local water is pH 7.8-8.0, so jarring has got to be hard
on bettas. I'm thinking of trying a broad-spectrum antibiotic like
Maracyn 2 (minocycline). Do any of you experienced betta keepers have
another favorite cure for a lethargic betta that looks healthy but
doesn't eat?

--
Elaine T __
http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><
rec.aquaria.* FAQ http://faq.thekrib.com

[David Zopf]

"Elaine T" > wrote in message
m...
>I got a new crowntail betta at a pretty good LFS about two weeks ago, but I
>think he's sick. He's in a two gallon hex established tank with a jungle
>of fast-growing healthy plants. Temps are 76F, no ammonia or nitrite;
>nitrates fertilized to 5 ppm, pH 7.8, hard water. 50% weekly water
>changes. The tank is sponge filtered and the water quality is high enough
>for the Otocinclus who's been there for well over six months.
>
> The betta looks perfect, but he's lethargic and only picks at his food.
> I've offered pellets, live brine shrimp, daphnia, bloodworms, and
> glassworms with no luck. He does't flare, swim around much, or
> bubblenest. Instead he either rests on tall plants or wedges himself down
> on the gravel under the baby's tears, only coming up to take a rare
> breath. He doesn't even seem to breathe as much as other bettas, but it
> could be that the plants are oxygen saturating the water.
>
> Unfortunately, this LFS only guarantees their fish for 24 hours so I can't
> return him. Next time I buy a betta I'm going to ask the store to feed it
> first.
>
> Without any external symptoms, I'm at a bit of a loss. I'm inclined to
> think it's either a low-level internal infection or ammonia damage from
> jarring. Our local water is pH 7.8-8.0, so jarring has got to be hard on
> bettas. I'm thinking of trying a broad-spectrum antibiotic like Maracyn 2
> (minocycline). Do any of you experienced betta keepers have another
> favorite cure for a lethargic betta that looks healthy but doesn't eat?
>
(Caveat: I'm not an 'experienced betta-keeper')
Temperature? I know that bettas can live across a wide range of temps,
but I've read many betta-keepers on the NG's writing that they are more
active/happier in a warmer tank (80-84F). If you don't think it'll upset
your Oto too much, maybe bring the tank closer to 80F over a long period, if
that doesn't overstep the habitable range for the Oto. (YMMV, I'm one of
those for whom Otos will die when glanced at cross-eyed, from the other side
of a dark room.;-)

DaveZ
Atom Weaver

[Gill Passman]

Elaine T wrote:
> I got a new crowntail betta at a pretty good LFS about two weeks ago,
> but I think he's sick. He's in a two gallon hex established tank with a
> jungle of fast-growing healthy plants. Temps are 76F, no ammonia or
> nitrite; nitrates fertilized to 5 ppm, pH 7.8, hard water. 50% weekly
> water changes. The tank is sponge filtered and the water quality is
> high enough for the Otocinclus who's been there for well over six months.
>
> The betta looks perfect, but he's lethargic and only picks at his food.
> I've offered pellets, live brine shrimp, daphnia, bloodworms, and
> glassworms with no luck. He does't flare, swim around much, or
> bubblenest. Instead he either rests on tall plants or wedges himself
> down on the gravel under the baby's tears, only coming up to take a rare
> breath. He doesn't even seem to breathe as much as other bettas, but it
> could be that the plants are oxygen saturating the water.
>
> Unfortunately, this LFS only guarantees their fish for 24 hours so I
> can't return him. Next time I buy a betta I'm going to ask the store to
> feed it first.
>
> Without any external symptoms, I'm at a bit of a loss. I'm inclined to
> think it's either a low-level internal infection or ammonia damage from
> jarring. Our local water is pH 7.8-8.0, so jarring has got to be hard
> on bettas. I'm thinking of trying a broad-spectrum antibiotic like
> Maracyn 2 (minocycline). Do any of you experienced betta keepers have
> another favorite cure for a lethargic betta that looks healthy but
> doesn't eat?
>

Hi Elaine,

As you know I'm no expert but I just thought I'd share Bob and Boris's
acclimatisation as I bought mine at the same time as you got yours.
There are a number of differences....

The 5gall tanks are always at quite a high temp down to the balance
between giving the light for the plants and trying to keep the temp down
to reasonable levels. Ambient temp in the house right now is 26.9C (been
an unusually hot day over here). Bob's tank is running at 28.5C and
Boris's at 29.5C. Bob shares his tank with the stunted Platy, has just
one live plant (rest are fake) due to light issues. Boris has the tank
to himself. It is planted with a CO2 unit on the side.

On both tanks I do just a 20% water change weekly. For the first few
weeks when I get new fish I tend to monitor water quality rather than
change it as part of my maintenance. Just really coz I believe that the
changing of water can be quite stressful when the fish are settling in -
I do the change just before buying the new fish on the basis that
waiting two weeks rather than one is no big deal (unless of course there
is ammonia/nitrites or high nitrates or anything else to worry me). So
Bob and Boris both waited two weeks before getting put on the
maintenance list.

Boris settled first and is out in the front of the tank flaring and eats
well. He always comes up to the front of the tank if he spots me and is
generally what I would call a happy Betta. Bob on the other hand was
slow to eat and hid quite a lot to start with. He's out at the front of
the tank right now but quite skittish still. He ate frozen bloodworm
from my hand tonight but that is a first. He hides in the plants a lot
(mainly plastic) and will perch on the leaves.

The only differences I can see with my setups (we share much the same pH
and water hardness issues) is the temp and the water changes....or maybe
your betta is just plain sick (I hope not)....

Just thought I'd share my experiences

Gill

[Gill Passman]

Gill Passman wrote:
> Elaine T wrote:
>
>> I got a new crowntail betta at a pretty good LFS about two weeks ago,
>> but I think he's sick. He's in a two gallon hex established tank with
>> a jungle of fast-growing healthy plants. Temps are 76F, no ammonia or
>> nitrite; nitrates fertilized to 5 ppm, pH 7.8, hard water. 50% weekly
>> water changes. The tank is sponge filtered and the water quality is
>> high enough for the Otocinclus who's been there for well over six months.
>>
>> The betta looks perfect, but he's lethargic and only picks at his
>> food. I've offered pellets, live brine shrimp, daphnia, bloodworms,
>> and glassworms with no luck. He does't flare, swim around much, or
>> bubblenest. Instead he either rests on tall plants or wedges himself
>> down on the gravel under the baby's tears, only coming up to take a
>> rare breath. He doesn't even seem to breathe as much as other bettas,
>> but it could be that the plants are oxygen saturating the water.
>>
>> Unfortunately, this LFS only guarantees their fish for 24 hours so I
>> can't return him. Next time I buy a betta I'm going to ask the store
>> to feed it first.
>>
>> Without any external symptoms, I'm at a bit of a loss. I'm inclined
>> to think it's either a low-level internal infection or ammonia damage
>> from jarring. Our local water is pH 7.8-8.0, so jarring has got to be
>> hard on bettas. I'm thinking of trying a broad-spectrum antibiotic
>> like Maracyn 2 (minocycline). Do any of you experienced betta keepers
>> have another favorite cure for a lethargic betta that looks healthy
>> but doesn't eat?
>>
>
> Hi Elaine,
>
> As you know I'm no expert but I just thought I'd share Bob and Boris's
> acclimatisation as I bought mine at the same time as you got yours.
> There are a number of differences....
>
> The 5gall tanks are always at quite a high temp down to the balance
> between giving the light for the plants and trying to keep the temp down
> to reasonable levels. Ambient temp in the house right now is 26.9C (been
> an unusually hot day over here). Bob's tank is running at 28.5C and
> Boris's at 29.5C. Bob shares his tank with the stunted Platy, has just
> one live plant (rest are fake) due to light issues. Boris has the tank
> to himself. It is planted with a CO2 unit on the side.
>
> On both tanks I do just a 20% water change weekly. For the first few
> weeks when I get new fish I tend to monitor water quality rather than
> change it as part of my maintenance. Just really coz I believe that the
> changing of water can be quite stressful when the fish are settling in -
> I do the change just before buying the new fish on the basis that
> waiting two weeks rather than one is no big deal (unless of course there
> is ammonia/nitrites or high nitrates or anything else to worry me). So
> Bob and Boris both waited two weeks before getting put on the
> maintenance list.
>
> Boris settled first and is out in the front of the tank flaring and eats
> well. He always comes up to the front of the tank if he spots me and is
> generally what I would call a happy Betta. Bob on the other hand was
> slow to eat and hid quite a lot to start with. He's out at the front of
> the tank right now but quite skittish still. He ate frozen bloodworm
> from my hand tonight but that is a first. He hides in the plants a lot
> (mainly plastic) and will perch on the leaves.
>
> The only differences I can see with my setups (we share much the same pH
> and water hardness issues) is the temp and the water changes....or maybe
> your betta is just plain sick (I hope not)....
>
> Just thought I'd share my experiences
>
> Gill

Been thinking about this again and what I presume is your set
up...substrate for plants, Co2 unit, heavily planted....this reflects
Boris's set up. Until this tank I've never played with C02 units or
tried to create a tank specifically for plants - I've always gone for
fish and whatever will grow...but this was a little experiment and when
I couldn't decide over the bettas Boris ended up here....just did a pH
reading on the tank (9 days since the last water change - overdue but
I've been busy). The pH is now 6.5 (I have never seen orange on a pH
test - experiment is working - I really was going to do this as a
fishless experiment in playing with pH naturally but couldn't resist
Boris)....my other tanks are all 7.5-8pH....just a thought but maybe the
water changes at 50% are creating wide swings in pH which are upsetting
Mr Betta...if there are no other signs of disease I would be very
cautious about medicating....I would just try ensuring a stable pH...


Hmmm though,,, gives me some ideas as to how to keep Discus etc...

Gill

[Elaine T]

Gill Passman wrote:
> Gill Passman wrote:
>
>> Elaine T wrote:
>>
>>> I got a new crowntail betta at a pretty good LFS about two weeks ago,
>>> but I think he's sick. He's in a two gallon hex established tank
>>> with a jungle of fast-growing healthy plants. Temps are 76F, no
>>> ammonia or nitrite; nitrates fertilized to 5 ppm, pH 7.8, hard
>>> water. 50% weekly water changes. The tank is sponge filtered and
>>> the water quality is high enough for the Otocinclus who's been there
>>> for well over six months.
>>>
>>> The betta looks perfect, but he's lethargic and only picks at his
>>> food. I've offered pellets, live brine shrimp, daphnia, bloodworms,
>>> and glassworms with no luck. He does't flare, swim around much, or
>>> bubblenest. Instead he either rests on tall plants or wedges himself
>>> down on the gravel under the baby's tears, only coming up to take a
>>> rare breath. He doesn't even seem to breathe as much as other
>>> bettas, but it could be that the plants are oxygen saturating the water.
>>>
>>> Unfortunately, this LFS only guarantees their fish for 24 hours so I
>>> can't return him. Next time I buy a betta I'm going to ask the store
>>> to feed it first.
>>>
>>> Without any external symptoms, I'm at a bit of a loss. I'm inclined
>>> to think it's either a low-level internal infection or ammonia damage
>>> from jarring. Our local water is pH 7.8-8.0, so jarring has got to
>>> be hard on bettas. I'm thinking of trying a broad-spectrum
>>> antibiotic like Maracyn 2 (minocycline). Do any of you experienced
>>> betta keepers have another favorite cure for a lethargic betta that
>>> looks healthy but doesn't eat?
>>>
>>
>> Hi Elaine,
>>
>> As you know I'm no expert but I just thought I'd share Bob and Boris's
>> acclimatisation as I bought mine at the same time as you got yours.
>> There are a number of differences....
>>
>> The 5gall tanks are always at quite a high temp down to the balance
>> between giving the light for the plants and trying to keep the temp
>> down to reasonable levels. Ambient temp in the house right now is
>> 26.9C (been an unusually hot day over here). Bob's tank is running at
>> 28.5C and Boris's at 29.5C. Bob shares his tank with the stunted
>> Platy, has just one live plant (rest are fake) due to light issues.
>> Boris has the tank to himself. It is planted with a CO2 unit on the side.
>>
>> On both tanks I do just a 20% water change weekly. For the first few
>> weeks when I get new fish I tend to monitor water quality rather than
>> change it as part of my maintenance. Just really coz I believe that
>> the changing of water can be quite stressful when the fish are
>> settling in - I do the change just before buying the new fish on the
>> basis that waiting two weeks rather than one is no big deal (unless of
>> course there is ammonia/nitrites or high nitrates or anything else to
>> worry me). So Bob and Boris both waited two weeks before getting put
>> on the maintenance list.
>>
>> Boris settled first and is out in the front of the tank flaring and
>> eats well. He always comes up to the front of the tank if he spots me
>> and is generally what I would call a happy Betta. Bob on the other
>> hand was slow to eat and hid quite a lot to start with. He's out at
>> the front of the tank right now but quite skittish still. He ate
>> frozen bloodworm from my hand tonight but that is a first. He hides in
>> the plants a lot (mainly plastic) and will perch on the leaves.
>>
>> The only differences I can see with my setups (we share much the same
>> pH and water hardness issues) is the temp and the water changes....or
>> maybe your betta is just plain sick (I hope not)....
>>
>> Just thought I'd share my experiences
>>
>> Gill
>
>
> Been thinking about this again and what I presume is your set
> up...substrate for plants, Co2 unit, heavily planted....this reflects
> Boris's set up. Until this tank I've never played with C02 units or
> tried to create a tank specifically for plants - I've always gone for
> fish and whatever will grow...but this was a little experiment and when
> I couldn't decide over the bettas Boris ended up here....just did a pH
> reading on the tank (9 days since the last water change - overdue but
> I've been busy). The pH is now 6.5 (I have never seen orange on a pH
> test - experiment is working - I really was going to do this as a
> fishless experiment in playing with pH naturally but couldn't resist
> Boris)....my other tanks are all 7.5-8pH....just a thought but maybe the
> water changes at 50% are creating wide swings in pH which are upsetting
> Mr Betta...if there are no other signs of disease I would be very
> cautious about medicating....I would just try ensuring a stable pH...
>
>
> Hmmm though,,, gives me some ideas as to how to keep Discus etc...
>
> Gill

Thanks, Gill - that gives me something to test at least. I should put
up a new pic of this tank - it's the little hex on my website, where
Squishy lived, but with quite a few more months' growth. The baby's
tears in the foreground have grown into a solid 2" high mass, the browin
crypt is starting to really grow, and there's easily twice as much
Rotala now. I'm using Flourish Excel on that tank rather than CO2 so pH
is not as much of an issue. I didn't think I could control CO2 well
enough in only 2 gallons to get a stable pH, although there are some who
do it. My water is near 10 dKH and the pH is *very* hard to budge, but
I'll still test more often.

I'm reluctant to mess with the temps - I just barely got the new
millfoil growing again now that it's cooled down. I can back off on the
water changes, though. I've been inclined to change more but maybe it
is still an acclimaton issue and should be less. The plants will keep
the water plenty clean.

Guess I'm paranoid, since I just lost the discus by going for too long
with a "keep the tank optimal and watch and wait" attitude. Now if it
looks like a disease, I want to treat rather than wait. I'm also still
wondering about ammonia damage from him being jarred...

--
Elaine T __
http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><
rec.aquaria.* FAQ http://faq.thekrib.com

[Elaine T]

Elaine T wrote:
> I got a new crowntail betta at a pretty good LFS about two weeks ago,
> but I think he's sick. He's in a two gallon hex established tank with a
> jungle of fast-growing healthy plants. Temps are 76F, no ammonia or
> nitrite; nitrates fertilized to 5 ppm, pH 7.8, hard water. 50% weekly
> water changes. The tank is sponge filtered and the water quality is
> high enough for the Otocinclus who's been there for well over six months.
>
> The betta looks perfect, but he's lethargic and only picks at his food.

<snip>

Well, he came up into the lights this afternoon, and he no longer looks
perfect. He has a weird, puffy greyish coating on the underside of his
head. It doesn't look like anything I've seen in RL before, but I'm
guessing velvet or flexibacter. I'm going with salt and acriflavine in
a Q-tank, which should kill either.

Anyone have a suggestion for how to remove flexibacter from the planted
tank? Does acriflavine kill plants like methylene blue does? MAybe
kanamycin?

--
Elaine T __
http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><
rec.aquaria.* FAQ http://faq.thekrib.com

[IDzine01]

I have treated flex successfully a couple of times with kanamycin in a
planted tank.

[Elaine T]

IDzine01 wrote:
> I have treated flex successfully a couple of times with kanamycin in a
> planted tank.
>
Oh, good. I'd so hate to have to tear down that little tank - it's
doing so well.

--
Elaine T __
http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><
rec.aquaria.* FAQ http://faq.thekrib.com