PH and alk question

[Larry Blanchard]

Karen Garza wrote:
> The PH in my 20 gallon fw tank is 8.2 and the alk. is high.

> What else can I do to lower
> the PH and alk? I'm not sure I really want to mess with using PH Down
> or other chemicals, but if that's the only way to have a healthy
> tank...
>
A. Get fish that like high ph - cichlids or rainbowfish are the easiest.

B. Add a nylon stocking full of peat (sphagnum) moss to the filter.
That will tint the water, however.

C. Add 25%-50% distilled water every time you do a water change.

In my heavily planted 10 gallon, I change only 10% weekly. 3 quarts of
tap water, one of distilled. You'd probably want half and half and at
10% that'd be 1 gallon of distiiled water a week - about 79 cents.

[Larry Blanchard]

Elaine T wrote:

> If you're determined to soften the water, the best way is to mix your
> tap water with RO, distilled, or rainwater. Wood, peat, or
> blackwater extract isn't likely to do much.

OK, I'm curious. I've never used peat, just read about it. I did
rmember that sphagnum moss worked better than peat so I mentioned it.
If it's like the stuff I use to prevent damping off of plant seedlings
for the gardn, it's a fine dry powder. Perhaps more surface area per sq
in, or just that more escapes into the water, or it's more acid than
peat moss.

Have you (or anyone else) tried sphagnum moss, or just ordinary peat moss?

One of these days I want to try keeping killifish and I was counting on
the moss in a bag trick to acidify the water. I may have to think of
something else.

[Karen Garza]

The PH in my 20 gallon fw tank is 8.2 and the alk. is high. The tank is
unplanteed right now and there are five platys and four ghost shrimp in the
tank. I am still looking for some oto cats and peppered corys to add to the
tank. The tank has a Penguin 125 Biowheel filter, a heater (temp is 76-78),
and a bubble wand set to produce a medium about of bubbles. The light is on
about 8 hours per day.
I tried adding a piece driftwood, but it started growing fuzz. Besides, the
tank is too small for much driftwood. My tap wter is very high in minerals,
but I really don't want to have to buy water for my tank. What else can I do
to lower the PH and alk? I'm not sure I really want to mess with using PH
Down or other chemicals, but if that's the only way to have a healthy
tank...

Thanks

Karen

[Elaine T]

Karen Garza wrote:
> The PH in my 20 gallon fw tank is 8.2 and the alk. is high. The tank is
> unplanteed right now and there are five platys and four ghost shrimp in the
> tank. I am still looking for some oto cats and peppered corys to add to the
> tank. The tank has a Penguin 125 Biowheel filter, a heater (temp is 76-78),
> and a bubble wand set to produce a medium about of bubbles. The light is on
> about 8 hours per day.
> I tried adding a piece driftwood, but it started growing fuzz. Besides, the
> tank is too small for much driftwood. My tap wter is very high in minerals,
> but I really don't want to have to buy water for my tank. What else can I do
> to lower the PH and alk? I'm not sure I really want to mess with using PH
> Down or other chemicals, but if that's the only way to have a healthy
> tank...
>
> Thanks
>
> Karen
>
>
Actually, platies and shrimp prefer hard, alkaline water. Cories will
adapt to hard water, although they won't spawn in it. It may be tricky
to get Otos adapted, so leave it to your LFS. Only buy otos that have
been at your LFS and in your local water for at least a week; two is
better. To grow plants, use Flourish Excel as a carbon source rather
than CO2.

If you're determined to soften the water, the best way is to mix your
tap water with RO, distilled, or rainwater. Wood, peat, or blackwater
extract isn't likely to do much. Around here, I can get carbon
filtered/UV/RO drinking water from vending machines for 25 cents a
gallon. I really don't think it's necessary for you to change your
water, though. People soften water for high-tech planted tanks, to
breed sof****er fish, or to keep challenging fish like rams or discus.

As for fuzzies on wood, they're perfectly normal. I just scrub them off
and they'll usually stop growing as the wood gets coated with tank
bacteria and algae. If the fuzzies are extreme, you could soak the wood
in potassium permanganate for an hour or scrub it with salt. Avoid
bleaching wood - it's porous and hard to get all the bleach back out.

--
Elaine T __
http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><
rec.aquaria.* FAQ http://faq.thekrib.com

[Gill Passman]

Karen Garza wrote:
> The PH in my 20 gallon fw tank is 8.2 and the alk. is high. The tank is
> unplanteed right now and there are five platys and four ghost shrimp in the
> tank. I am still looking for some oto cats and peppered corys to add to the
> tank. The tank has a Penguin 125 Biowheel filter, a heater (temp is 76-78),
> and a bubble wand set to produce a medium about of bubbles. The light is on
> about 8 hours per day.
> I tried adding a piece driftwood, but it started growing fuzz. Besides, the
> tank is too small for much driftwood. My tap wter is very high in minerals,
> but I really don't want to have to buy water for my tank. What else can I do
> to lower the PH and alk? I'm not sure I really want to mess with using PH
> Down or other chemicals, but if that's the only way to have a healthy
> tank...
>
> Thanks
>
> Karen
>
>
I've been running an experiment with a 5 gall tank. I am using Red Sea
Flora Base as the substrate and have a CO2 unit set up for the size of
tank. There is some driftwood in the tank but as I have had it for at
least 8 years I'm guessing that it's leeching capacity is well past.

My pH on all the other tanks is 8 yet this one when I measured it last
night is 6.5 - unheard of for any of my tanks....of course I am going to
monitor this in case of any crashes that might hurt my betta....but as
far as I can tell right now this is a good way of lowering pH (NetMax's
idea with the CO2 not mine when I was attempting to nurse a sick Ram).
Having achieved this lowering in pH my main concern is that it will rise
very quickly with my usual maintenance routine so I'm going to have to
do smaller, more frequent changes - less margin for error in a small
tank....

But it all proves that it is possible to lower pH without drastic or
chemical intervention

JME

Gill

[Karen Garza]

Thanks Larry. I think I might try using peat in my filter.
Platys are one of my favorite fish. I love the bright colors, they are non
agressive, easy to maintain and they breed easily. Yeah, I know my tastes
aren't very sophisticated, but that's what I like ;-)

Karen

"Larry Blanchard" > wrote in message
...
> Karen Garza wrote:
> > The PH in my 20 gallon fw tank is 8.2 and the alk. is high.
>
> > What else can I do to lower
> > the PH and alk? I'm not sure I really want to mess with using PH Down
> > or other chemicals, but if that's the only way to have a healthy
> > tank...
> >
> A. Get fish that like high ph - cichlids or rainbowfish are the easiest.
>
> B. Add a nylon stocking full of peat (sphagnum) moss to the filter.
> That will tint the water, however.
>
> C. Add 25%-50% distilled water every time you do a water change.
>
> In my heavily planted 10 gallon, I change only 10% weekly. 3 quarts of
> tap water, one of distilled. You'd probably want half and half and at
> 10% that'd be 1 gallon of distiiled water a week - about 79 cents.
>

[Karen Garza]

"Elaine T" > wrote
> Actually, platies and shrimp prefer hard, alkaline water. Cories will
> adapt to hard water, although they won't spawn in it. It may be tricky
> to get Otos adapted, so leave it to your LFS. Only buy otos that have
> been at your LFS and in your local water for at least a week; two is
> better. To grow plants, use Flourish Excel as a carbon source rather
> than CO2.
>
> If you're determined to soften the water, the best way is to mix your
> tap water with RO, distilled, or rainwater. Wood, peat, or blackwater
> extract isn't likely to do much. Around here, I can get carbon
> filtered/UV/RO drinking water from vending machines for 25 cents a
> gallon. I really don't think it's necessary for you to change your
> water, though. People soften water for high-tech planted tanks, to
> breed sof****er fish, or to keep challenging fish like rams or discus.
>
> --
> Elaine T
Hi Elain
Thanks for the advice. I just moved here to Oklahoma from California two and
a half months ago. I guess I will just wait to see how the platys do in this
8.2 PH and high alk water. I just added the platys to my tank four days ago,
and so far I haven't had any fatalities. Maybe they will do just fine in the
tap water I have.

Karen

[NetMax]

"Karen Garza" > wrote in message
...
> The PH in my 20 gallon fw tank is 8.2 and the alk. is high. The tank is
> unplanteed right now and there are five platys and four ghost shrimp in
> the
> tank. I am still looking for some oto cats and peppered corys to add to
> the
> tank. The tank has a Penguin 125 Biowheel filter, a heater (temp is
> 76-78),
> and a bubble wand set to produce a medium about of bubbles. The light
> is on
> about 8 hours per day.
> I tried adding a piece driftwood, but it started growing fuzz. Besides,
> the
> tank is too small for much driftwood. My tap wter is very high in
> minerals,
> but I really don't want to have to buy water for my tank. What else can
> I do
> to lower the PH and alk? I'm not sure I really want to mess with using
> PH
> Down or other chemicals, but if that's the only way to have a healthy
> tank...
>
> Thanks
>
> Karen


Yes, you really don't want to be messing with acidifying or buffering
chemicals. I've had Platys in 8.4pH 16dgH 16dkH water without incident.
I've also kept corys in hard water, but they only bred when the pH
crashed *blush*. Exactly how hard is your water (not the alkalinity).
Keep in mind that many folks add stuff to their water to get where you
are now, so perhaps you should select fish accordingly. Most any neutral
water fish bred locally in hard water would be very happy in your water
conditions.

Fuzzy wood is just fungus growing on decaying organic matter.
Cosmetically, it depends on your personal tastes, but it's generally
irrelevant to the fish (and some fish even eat some of these fungi). I
rinse the wood under hot water for a few minutes to deter/eliminate the
growth.

Note to Gill, I can be a bad influence ;~).
As you know, the lower pH comes from the carbonic acids from the addition
of CO2 (so it is a chemical intervention of sorts ;~), but if your
alkalinity is high, then the tank's pH will re-establish itself very
quickly when the CO2 is interrupted. The higher the alkalinity and the
smaller the tank, the more reason to have CO2 redundancy (two DIY
canisters, a backup pressurized canister, a supply of fizz pills etc).
You are much braver than I (and using a 5g tank!). I would not have
thought that possible.
--
www.NetMax.tk

[Gill Passman]

NetMax wrote:
> "Karen Garza" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>The PH in my 20 gallon fw tank is 8.2 and the alk. is high. The tank is
>>unplanteed right now and there are five platys and four ghost shrimp in
>>the
>>tank. I am still looking for some oto cats and peppered corys to add to
>>the
>>tank. The tank has a Penguin 125 Biowheel filter, a heater (temp is
>>76-78),
>>and a bubble wand set to produce a medium about of bubbles. The light
>>is on
>>about 8 hours per day.
>>I tried adding a piece driftwood, but it started growing fuzz. Besides,
>>the
>>tank is too small for much driftwood. My tap wter is very high in
>>minerals,
>>but I really don't want to have to buy water for my tank. What else can
>>I do
>>to lower the PH and alk? I'm not sure I really want to mess with using
>>PH
>>Down or other chemicals, but if that's the only way to have a healthy
>>tank...
>>
>>Thanks
>>
>>Karen
>
>
>
> Yes, you really don't want to be messing with acidifying or buffering
> chemicals. I've had Platys in 8.4pH 16dgH 16dkH water without incident.
> I've also kept corys in hard water, but they only bred when the pH
> crashed *blush*. Exactly how hard is your water (not the alkalinity).
> Keep in mind that many folks add stuff to their water to get where you
> are now, so perhaps you should select fish accordingly. Most any neutral
> water fish bred locally in hard water would be very happy in your water
> conditions.
>
> Fuzzy wood is just fungus growing on decaying organic matter.
> Cosmetically, it depends on your personal tastes, but it's generally
> irrelevant to the fish (and some fish even eat some of these fungi). I
> rinse the wood under hot water for a few minutes to deter/eliminate the
> growth.
>
> Note to Gill, I can be a bad influence ;~).
> As you know, the lower pH comes from the carbonic acids from the addition
> of CO2 (so it is a chemical intervention of sorts ;~), but if your
> alkalinity is high, then the tank's pH will re-establish itself very
> quickly when the CO2 is interrupted. The higher the alkalinity and the
> smaller the tank, the more reason to have CO2 redundancy (two DIY
> canisters, a backup pressurized canister, a supply of fizz pills etc).
> You are much braver than I (and using a 5g tank!). I would not have
> thought that possible.


As I think I said I am very, very much running this as an experiment
following my conversations with you when I lost the Ram....the Red Sea
stuff actually claims to lower pH....the Betta in the tank was an
"accident" due to me being unable to choose betweeen two great fish
(hey, ho). In fact, Boris, I would say in the CO2 tank, is doing just as
well if not "betta" than Bob in the other tank....I need to measure for
water hardness....in the past I've just gone on liquid rock plus a the
ocean rock and coral leeching into the Mbuna tank - they breed like
rabbits so there can't be too much of a problem....but this is going the
other way....

To the OP - go with what your water parameters support. Let your LFS do
the acclimitasion....it was I do on most of my tanks except the Malawi
and this one experimental tank...it's better for you and your fish in
the long run - most of my tanks run at a pH of 8 plus with no problems
for the fish.


NetMax, you are not a bad influence but a very great resource :-) I'm
counting on you for good advice on the tank upgrade Hubby has ageed on -
6 foot, can't increase the width (12"), depth is up for
negotiation....and I'm not getting rid of the 47.5gall - just need a new
location.....will be posting once I've sussed what I'm going to get...


Gill


Fuzzy wood IME just provides more cover for fry - I have no probs with
it....plus some of it looks attractive and adds to the overall look of
the tank....a little bit of algae lawn....

[Elaine T]

Larry Blanchard wrote:
> Elaine T wrote:
>
>> If you're determined to soften the water, the best way is to mix your
>> tap water with RO, distilled, or rainwater. Wood, peat, or
>> blackwater extract isn't likely to do much.
>
>
> OK, I'm curious. I've never used peat, just read about it. I did
> rmember that sphagnum moss worked better than peat so I mentioned it. If
> it's like the stuff I use to prevent damping off of plant seedlings for
> the gardn, it's a fine dry powder. Perhaps more surface area per sq in,
> or just that more escapes into the water, or it's more acid than peat moss.
>
> Have you (or anyone else) tried sphagnum moss, or just ordinary peat moss?
>
> One of these days I want to try keeping killifish and I was counting on
> the moss in a bag trick to acidify the water. I may have to think of
> something else.
>
>
I tried putting a bag of ordinary peat that you get at fish stores into
the filter. I've got an Aquaclear, so I put it in place of the carbon.
I also tried coconut fiber, which is supposed to be as good as peat
but lower in phosphate. The water got brown but the pH only came down
from 7.9 to 7.7. A squirt of Tetra blackwater extract brought it down
to 7.6. I just couldn't get it down any lower without adding RO. I
looked up the water report and my water isn't even that alkaline. At
the plant, it's 6 dKH, 13 dGH, pH 8.1. Weird readings but I trust them
better than test kits. Maybe I just didn't use enough peat.

I've softened water successfully with peat in the past, but that water
was around 4 dKH. I put a bag of Fluval peat in my Fluval 303 on a 55
gallon CO2 tank and got the pH 7.4 tapwater down to pH 6.5 between the
peat and the CO2.

I've seen killie tanks with a solid layer of peat or coconut fiber on
the bottom as substrate. Perhaps if you used that much?

I've never heard of using sphagnum moss. I'll have to give it a try if
I need to soften water again.

--
Elaine T __
http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><
rec.aquaria.* FAQ http://faq.thekrib.com

[Elaine T]

Gill Passman wrote:
> Karen Garza wrote:
>
>> The PH in my 20 gallon fw tank is 8.2 and the alk. is high. The tank is
>> unplanteed right now and there are five platys and four ghost shrimp
>> in the
>> tank. I am still looking for some oto cats and peppered corys to add
>> to the
>> tank. The tank has a Penguin 125 Biowheel filter, a heater (temp is
>> 76-78),
>> and a bubble wand set to produce a medium about of bubbles. The light
>> is on
>> about 8 hours per day.
>> I tried adding a piece driftwood, but it started growing fuzz.
>> Besides, the
>> tank is too small for much driftwood. My tap wter is very high in
>> minerals,
>> but I really don't want to have to buy water for my tank. What else
>> can I do
>> to lower the PH and alk? I'm not sure I really want to mess with using PH
>> Down or other chemicals, but if that's the only way to have a healthy
>> tank...
>>
>> Thanks
>>
>> Karen
>>
>>
> I've been running an experiment with a 5 gall tank. I am using Red Sea
> Flora Base as the substrate and have a CO2 unit set up for the size of
> tank. There is some driftwood in the tank but as I have had it for at
> least 8 years I'm guessing that it's leeching capacity is well past.
>
> My pH on all the other tanks is 8 yet this one when I measured it last
> night is 6.5 - unheard of for any of my tanks....of course I am going to
> monitor this in case of any crashes that might hurt my betta....but as
> far as I can tell right now this is a good way of lowering pH (NetMax's
> idea with the CO2 not mine when I was attempting to nurse a sick Ram).
> Having achieved this lowering in pH my main concern is that it will rise
> very quickly with my usual maintenance routine so I'm going to have to
> do smaller, more frequent changes - less margin for error in a small
> tank....
>
> But it all proves that it is possible to lower pH without drastic or
> chemical intervention
>
> JME
>
> Gill
>
>
But your water is still hard, right?

Also, if your water were normally 8.2 and the pH had dropped to 6.5 from
CO2 alone, your fish would be dead from CO2 poisoning. Something else
is going on in that tank.

--
Elaine T __
http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><
rec.aquaria.* FAQ http://faq.thekrib.com

[NetMax]

"Elaine T" > wrote in message
m...
> Larry Blanchard wrote:
>> Elaine T wrote:
>>
>>> If you're determined to soften the water, the best way is to mix your
>>> tap water with RO, distilled, or rainwater. Wood, peat, or
>>> blackwater extract isn't likely to do much.
>>
>>
>> OK, I'm curious. I've never used peat, just read about it. I did
>> rmember that sphagnum moss worked better than peat so I mentioned it.
>> If it's like the stuff I use to prevent damping off of plant seedlings
>> for the gardn, it's a fine dry powder. Perhaps more surface area per
>> sq in, or just that more escapes into the water, or it's more acid
>> than peat moss.
>>
>> Have you (or anyone else) tried sphagnum moss, or just ordinary peat
>> moss?
>>
>> One of these days I want to try keeping killifish and I was counting
>> on the moss in a bag trick to acidify the water. I may have to think
>> of something else.
>>
>>
> I tried putting a bag of ordinary peat that you get at fish stores into
> the filter. I've got an Aquaclear, so I put it in place of the carbon.
> I also tried coconut fiber, which is supposed to be as good as peat but
> lower in phosphate. The water got brown but the pH only came down from
> 7.9 to 7.7. A squirt of Tetra blackwater extract brought it down to
> 7.6. I just couldn't get it down any lower without adding RO. I
> looked up the water report and my water isn't even that alkaline. At
> the plant, it's 6 dKH, 13 dGH, pH 8.1. Weird readings but I trust them
> better than test kits. Maybe I just didn't use enough peat.
>
> I've softened water successfully with peat in the past, but that water
> was around 4 dKH. I put a bag of Fluval peat in my Fluval 303 on a 55
> gallon CO2 tank and got the pH 7.4 tapwater down to pH 6.5 between the
> peat and the CO2.
>
> I've seen killie tanks with a solid layer of peat or coconut fiber on
> the bottom as substrate. Perhaps if you used that much?
>
> I've never heard of using sphagnum moss. I'll have to give it a try if
> I need to soften water again.
>
> --
> Elaine T

I think my experiences with peat softening have been the same as Elaine.
Fluval has a concentrated peat pellet which is quite effective if you use
enough and your water's alkalinity is relatively low to start with. For
hard water applications, peat will still work, but it gets a bit more
involved with large amounts of sphagnum, holding tanks and recirculating
powerheads.

The trouble is that it's a lot easier to harden water (adding minerals)
than to soften it. Peat acidifies the water (slowly) and minerals attach
to it (even more slowly), but water changes with tap water set you back
(which is why holding tanks work so well with this method). There are
many web sites which show various recipes and techniques if you don't
mind the work.
--
www.NetMax.tk

[NetMax]

"Gill Passman" > wrote in message
.. .
> NetMax wrote:
>> "Karen Garza" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>
>>>The PH in my 20 gallon fw tank is 8.2 and the alk. is high. The tank
>>>is
>>>unplanteed right now and there are five platys and four ghost shrimp
>>>in the
>>>tank. I am still looking for some oto cats and peppered corys to add
>>>to the
>>>tank. The tank has a Penguin 125 Biowheel filter, a heater (temp is
>>>76-78),
>>>and a bubble wand set to produce a medium about of bubbles. The light
>>>is on
>>>about 8 hours per day.
>>>I tried adding a piece driftwood, but it started growing fuzz.
>>>Besides, the
>>>tank is too small for much driftwood. My tap wter is very high in
>>>minerals,
>>>but I really don't want to have to buy water for my tank. What else
>>>can I do
>>>to lower the PH and alk? I'm not sure I really want to mess with using
>>>PH
>>>Down or other chemicals, but if that's the only way to have a healthy
>>>tank...
>>>
>>>Thanks
>>>
>>>Karen
>>
>>
>>
>> Yes, you really don't want to be messing with acidifying or buffering
>> chemicals. I've had Platys in 8.4pH 16dgH 16dkH water without
>> incident. I've also kept corys in hard water, but they only bred when
>> the pH crashed *blush*. Exactly how hard is your water (not the
>> alkalinity). Keep in mind that many folks add stuff to their water to
>> get where you are now, so perhaps you should select fish accordingly.
>> Most any neutral water fish bred locally in hard water would be very
>> happy in your water conditions.
>>
>> Fuzzy wood is just fungus growing on decaying organic matter.
>> Cosmetically, it depends on your personal tastes, but it's generally
>> irrelevant to the fish (and some fish even eat some of these fungi).
>> I rinse the wood under hot water for a few minutes to deter/eliminate
>> the growth.
>>
>> Note to Gill, I can be a bad influence ;~).
>> As you know, the lower pH comes from the carbonic acids from the
>> addition of CO2 (so it is a chemical intervention of sorts ;~), but if
>> your alkalinity is high, then the tank's pH will re-establish itself
>> very quickly when the CO2 is interrupted. The higher the alkalinity
>> and the smaller the tank, the more reason to have CO2 redundancy (two
>> DIY canisters, a backup pressurized canister, a supply of fizz pills
>> etc). You are much braver than I (and using a 5g tank!). I would not
>> have thought that possible.
>
>
> As I think I said I am very, very much running this as an experiment
> following my conversations with you when I lost the Ram....the Red Sea
> stuff actually claims to lower pH....the Betta in the tank was an
> "accident" due to me being unable to choose betweeen two great fish
> (hey, ho). In fact, Boris, I would say in the CO2 tank, is doing just
> as well if not "betta" than Bob in the other tank....I need to measure
> for water hardness....in the past I've just gone on liquid rock plus a
> the ocean rock and coral leeching into the Mbuna tank - they breed like
> rabbits so there can't be too much of a problem....but this is going
> the other way....
>
> To the OP - go with what your water parameters support. Let your LFS do
> the acclimitasion....it was I do on most of my tanks except the Malawi
> and this one experimental tank...it's better for you and your fish in
> the long run - most of my tanks run at a pH of 8 plus with no problems
> for the fish.
>
>
> NetMax, you are not a bad influence but a very great resource :-) I'm
> counting on you for good advice on the tank upgrade Hubby has ageed
> on - 6 foot, can't increase the width (12"), depth is up for
> negotiation....and I'm not getting rid of the 47.5gall - just need a
> new location.....will be posting once I've sussed what I'm going to
> get...
>
>
> Gill
>
>
> Fuzzy wood IME just provides more cover for fry - I have no probs with
> it....plus some of it looks attractive and adds to the overall look of
> the tank....a little bit of algae lawn....


I'll try to continue being helpful, but I know I can be a bad influence
too ;~). For the fuzzy wood, it also depends on if it's algae, bacterial
or fungi, and then it depends on which species as well. I've seen some
algaes which look like long grey spider webs and they not only looked
horrible, but they were crowding the fish. The short algae lawn is one
of my favourites as it not only looks good (ripples with the current) but
it prevents other less attractive surface algaes from catching on.

Regarding tank depth, place a piece of cardboard vertically on the floor,
parallel to a wall 12" away. Reach over and touch the base of the wall.
Raise the cardboard until you can no longer touch the floor. This is the
max height of the glass before you cannot reach the back of the tank (you
can add a few inches which would correspond to the depth of your gravel).
This assumes that your armpit will be at the top of the tank when you are
standing. Typical reach radius is 24". You can probably go a bit deeper
comfortably if your hubby has longer arms, but if you will be doing all
the work, it's nice to be able to reach the bottom of your tank ;~).
--
www.NetMax.tk

[Charles]

On Sat, 29 Oct 2005 22:19:38 -0400, "NetMax"
> wrote:

>"Elaine T" > wrote in message
m...
>> Larry Blanchard wrote:
>>> Elaine T wrote:
>>>
>>>> If you're determined to soften the water, the best way is to mix your
>>>> tap water with RO, distilled, or rainwater. Wood, peat, or
>>>> blackwater extract isn't likely to do much.
>>>
>>>
>>> OK, I'm curious. I've never used peat, just read about it. I did
>>> rmember that sphagnum moss worked better than peat so I mentioned it.
>>> If it's like the stuff I use to prevent damping off of plant seedlings
>>> for the gardn, it's a fine dry powder. Perhaps more surface area per
>>> sq in, or just that more escapes into the water, or it's more acid
>>> than peat moss.
>>>
>>> Have you (or anyone else) tried sphagnum moss, or just ordinary peat
>>> moss?
>>>
>>> One of these days I want to try keeping killifish and I was counting
>>> on the moss in a bag trick to acidify the water. I may have to think
>>> of something else.
>>>
>>>
>> I tried putting a bag of ordinary peat that you get at fish stores into
>> the filter. I've got an Aquaclear, so I put it in place of the carbon.
>> I also tried coconut fiber, which is supposed to be as good as peat but
>> lower in phosphate. The water got brown but the pH only came down from
>> 7.9 to 7.7. A squirt of Tetra blackwater extract brought it down to
>> 7.6. I just couldn't get it down any lower without adding RO. I
>> looked up the water report and my water isn't even that alkaline. At
>> the plant, it's 6 dKH, 13 dGH, pH 8.1. Weird readings but I trust them
>> better than test kits. Maybe I just didn't use enough peat.
>>
>> I've softened water successfully with peat in the past, but that water
>> was around 4 dKH. I put a bag of Fluval peat in my Fluval 303 on a 55
>> gallon CO2 tank and got the pH 7.4 tapwater down to pH 6.5 between the
>> peat and the CO2.
>>
>> I've seen killie tanks with a solid layer of peat or coconut fiber on
>> the bottom as substrate. Perhaps if you used that much?
>>
>> I've never heard of using sphagnum moss. I'll have to give it a try if
>> I need to soften water again.
>>
>> --
>> Elaine T
>
>I think my experiences with peat softening have been the same as Elaine.
>Fluval has a concentrated peat pellet which is quite effective if you use
>enough and your water's alkalinity is relatively low to start with. For
>hard water applications, peat will still work, but it gets a bit more
>involved with large amounts of sphagnum, holding tanks and recirculating
>powerheads.
>
>The trouble is that it's a lot easier to harden water (adding minerals)
>than to soften it. Peat acidifies the water (slowly) and minerals attach
>to it (even more slowly), but water changes with tap water set you back
>(which is why holding tanks work so well with this method). There are
>many web sites which show various recipes and techniques if you don't
>mind the work.


I wonder if it depends on what the water supplier is using to raise
the pH. Our city recently switched to Sodium Hydroxide, it may be
that peat doesn't remove that as well as it did the calcium compounds.

[George Pontis]

In article >, eetmail-
says...
> Larry Blanchard wrote:
> > Elaine T wrote:
> ...
> looked up the water report and my water isn't even that alkaline. At
> the plant, it's 6 dKH, 13 dGH, pH 8.1. Weird readings but I trust them
> better than test kits.
>

Nothing weird about those numbers, just a bit more calcium and/or magnesium than
average.

When it comes to measuring GH and KH with aquarium test kits, I think that we are
in good shape. These two assays are probably the most accurate of all the tests in
the home aquarist's toolbox. In my experience I can determine GH or KH with an old
and outdated Red Sea test kit, and get exactly the same result with a new Tetra
kit. The reagents seem to be pretty stable and the titration method that they use
is the classic chemistry means of doing an accurate test. I find it a lot easier
to determine the GH or KH color change than to match the reflection off a printed
chart with the light transmitted through a test tube!

Geo.

[Gill Passman]

Elaine T wrote:
> Gill Passman wrote:
>
>> Karen Garza wrote:
>>
>>> The PH in my 20 gallon fw tank is 8.2 and the alk. is high. The tank is
>>> unplanteed right now and there are five platys and four ghost shrimp
>>> in the
>>> tank. I am still looking for some oto cats and peppered corys to add
>>> to the
>>> tank. The tank has a Penguin 125 Biowheel filter, a heater (temp is
>>> 76-78),
>>> and a bubble wand set to produce a medium about of bubbles. The light
>>> is on
>>> about 8 hours per day.
>>> I tried adding a piece driftwood, but it started growing fuzz.
>>> Besides, the
>>> tank is too small for much driftwood. My tap wter is very high in
>>> minerals,
>>> but I really don't want to have to buy water for my tank. What else
>>> can I do
>>> to lower the PH and alk? I'm not sure I really want to mess with
>>> using PH
>>> Down or other chemicals, but if that's the only way to have a healthy
>>> tank...
>>>
>>> Thanks
>>>
>>> Karen
>>>
>>>
>> I've been running an experiment with a 5 gall tank. I am using Red Sea
>> Flora Base as the substrate and have a CO2 unit set up for the size of
>> tank. There is some driftwood in the tank but as I have had it for at
>> least 8 years I'm guessing that it's leeching capacity is well past.
>>
>> My pH on all the other tanks is 8 yet this one when I measured it last
>> night is 6.5 - unheard of for any of my tanks....of course I am going
>> to monitor this in case of any crashes that might hurt my betta....but
>> as far as I can tell right now this is a good way of lowering pH
>> (NetMax's idea with the CO2 not mine when I was attempting to nurse a
>> sick Ram). Having achieved this lowering in pH my main concern is that
>> it will rise very quickly with my usual maintenance routine so I'm
>> going to have to do smaller, more frequent changes - less margin for
>> error in a small tank....
>>
>> But it all proves that it is possible to lower pH without drastic or
>> chemical intervention
>>
>> JME
>>
>> Gill
>>
>>
> But your water is still hard, right?
>
> Also, if your water were normally 8.2 and the pH had dropped to 6.5 from
> CO2 alone, your fish would be dead from CO2 poisoning. Something else
> is going on in that tank.
>
I'm going to check the hardness today if I manage to get to the LFS to
buy a test kit. I want to go, as I'm planning to revamp the Hex tank as
some of the plants are in a sorry state.

I definitely don't think it's the CO2 unit that has changed the pH to
this degree. The Red Sea Flora Base claims to lower pH so I'm more
inclined to think it is this rather than the CO2 - the driftwood I would
rule out because of it's age (8 years plus). What I don't know is if the
substrate also softens the water but intend finding out.

I must confess I'm getting a bit nervous over the CO2 unit as I've never
used one before and it is a small tank (I'm using the recommended
setting for a tank of this size). But Boris is happy and healthy
swimming around and flaring - he hand feeds and eats eagerly. In fact I
think he's doing better than the plants. I think my main concern right
now is causing too large a pH swing when I do water changes - need to
think this one through..

Gill