Overfeeding worries.

[Eric Ortega]

I have a new 10g tank with a sand bottom and I've found that everything
that sits on the sand is very obvious.

I've always heard that overfeeding your fish is a problem, and that you
shouldn't feed them more than what they can eat in a few minutes.

Well, this made sense with my other tank that only has gravel, since I
couldn't easily see if food was just sitting at the bottom and rotting
away. Now, though, I've been experimenting with feeding the fish much
more at a time and seeing if they've eaten it all by the time I come
back later.

It's always gone. I haven't put _ridiculous_ amounts of food in there or
anything, but, inevitably, after a few hours the fish will have eaten
everything.

So, this brings up the question, can you overfeed your fish even though
you can obviously tell that they're eating everything you feed them? It
might sound pedantic but it always crosses my mind now that I can actually
experiment with it.

[NetMax]

"Eric Ortega" > wrote in message
...
>I have a new 10g tank with a sand bottom and I've found that everything
> that sits on the sand is very obvious.
>
> I've always heard that overfeeding your fish is a problem, and that you
> shouldn't feed them more than what they can eat in a few minutes.
>
> Well, this made sense with my other tank that only has gravel, since I
> couldn't easily see if food was just sitting at the bottom and rotting
> away. Now, though, I've been experimenting with feeding the fish much
> more at a time and seeing if they've eaten it all by the time I come
> back later.
>
> It's always gone. I haven't put _ridiculous_ amounts of food in there
> or
> anything, but, inevitably, after a few hours the fish will have eaten
> everything.
>
> So, this brings up the question, can you overfeed your fish even though
> you can obviously tell that they're eating everything you feed them?
> It
> might sound pedantic but it always crosses my mind now that I can
> actually
> experiment with it.


Can a person over-eat if they swallow everything? Same answer, similar
results, though the first effect is that their smaller environment shows
the effects of the pollution (fish waste) faster, requiring more
maintenance (water changes and cleaning the filter). The next results
are more comparable to terrestrial pets who have a reduced activity level
coupled with an excess of food.

Like mammals, I think fish expend most of their energy on locomotion and
temperature regulation (metabolism), however being buoyant with their
environment means their energy requirements for locomotion can be quite
small (flap a fin and glide across to the other side of the tank), and
being relatively cold-blooded means their energy requirements for warming
their blood are also quite small. You might be more surprised by how
little they need to eat, rather than by how much they can eat ;~).
--
www.NetMax.tk

[Dawn]

"Eric Ortega" > wrote in message
...
>
> So, this brings up the question, can you overfeed your fish even though
> you can obviously tell that they're eating everything you feed them? It
> might sound pedantic but it always crosses my mind now that I can actually
> experiment with it.
=========================
If all the food is gone in 10 to 15 minutes I wouldn't consider that
overfeeding them. Anything left past 15 minutes I would remove.
--
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastadaisy
~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>

[Dick]

On Wed, 9 Nov 2005 23:55:21 -0500, "NetMax"
> wrote:

>"Eric Ortega" > wrote in message
...
>>I have a new 10g tank with a sand bottom and I've found that everything
>> that sits on the sand is very obvious.
>>
>> I've always heard that overfeeding your fish is a problem, and that you
>> shouldn't feed them more than what they can eat in a few minutes.
>>
>> Well, this made sense with my other tank that only has gravel, since I
>> couldn't easily see if food was just sitting at the bottom and rotting
>> away. Now, though, I've been experimenting with feeding the fish much
>> more at a time and seeing if they've eaten it all by the time I come
>> back later.
>>
>> It's always gone. I haven't put _ridiculous_ amounts of food in there
>> or
>> anything, but, inevitably, after a few hours the fish will have eaten
>> everything.
>>
>> So, this brings up the question, can you overfeed your fish even though
>> you can obviously tell that they're eating everything you feed them?
>> It
>> might sound pedantic but it always crosses my mind now that I can
>> actually
>> experiment with it.
>
>
>Can a person over-eat if they swallow everything? Same answer, similar
>results, though the first effect is that their smaller environment shows
>the effects of the pollution (fish waste) faster, requiring more
>maintenance (water changes and cleaning the filter). The next results
>are more comparable to terrestrial pets who have a reduced activity level
>coupled with an excess of food.
>
>Like mammals, I think fish expend most of their energy on locomotion and
>temperature regulation (metabolism), however being buoyant with their
>environment means their energy requirements for locomotion can be quite
>small (flap a fin and glide across to the other side of the tank), and
>being relatively cold-blooded means their energy requirements for warming
>their blood are also quite small. You might be more surprised by how
>little they need to eat, rather than by how much they can eat ;~).

After 3 years of serving my fish, I still worry about the food
procedures. I see two bookends to be resolved. At one extreme, too
much food resulting in cloudy water. The other extreme is too little
food not only resulting in unhealthy fish, but lack of nutrients for
the plants. I rely totally on fish waste to feed the plants in my
tanks.

Any comments about under feeding?

dick

[Gill Passman]

Dick wrote:
> On Wed, 9 Nov 2005 23:55:21 -0500, "NetMax"
> > wrote:
>
>
>>"Eric Ortega" > wrote in message
...
>>
>>>I have a new 10g tank with a sand bottom and I've found that everything
>>>that sits on the sand is very obvious.
>>>
>>>I've always heard that overfeeding your fish is a problem, and that you
>>>shouldn't feed them more than what they can eat in a few minutes.
>>>
>>>Well, this made sense with my other tank that only has gravel, since I
>>>couldn't easily see if food was just sitting at the bottom and rotting
>>>away. Now, though, I've been experimenting with feeding the fish much
>>>more at a time and seeing if they've eaten it all by the time I come
>>>back later.
>>>
>>>It's always gone. I haven't put _ridiculous_ amounts of food in there
>>>or
>>>anything, but, inevitably, after a few hours the fish will have eaten
>>>everything.
>>>
>>>So, this brings up the question, can you overfeed your fish even though
>>>you can obviously tell that they're eating everything you feed them?
>>>It
>>>might sound pedantic but it always crosses my mind now that I can
>>>actually
>>>experiment with it.
>>
>>
>>Can a person over-eat if they swallow everything? Same answer, similar
>>results, though the first effect is that their smaller environment shows
>>the effects of the pollution (fish waste) faster, requiring more
>>maintenance (water changes and cleaning the filter). The next results
>>are more comparable to terrestrial pets who have a reduced activity level
>>coupled with an excess of food.
>>
>>Like mammals, I think fish expend most of their energy on locomotion and
>>temperature regulation (metabolism), however being buoyant with their
>>environment means their energy requirements for locomotion can be quite
>>small (flap a fin and glide across to the other side of the tank), and
>>being relatively cold-blooded means their energy requirements for warming
>>their blood are also quite small. You might be more surprised by how
>>little they need to eat, rather than by how much they can eat ;~).
>
>
> After 3 years of serving my fish, I still worry about the food
> procedures. I see two bookends to be resolved. At one extreme, too
> much food resulting in cloudy water. The other extreme is too little
> food not only resulting in unhealthy fish, but lack of nutrients for
> the plants. I rely totally on fish waste to feed the plants in my
> tanks.
>
> Any comments about under feeding?
>
> dick

I would say after 3 years if the fish are fine and healthy, you don't
have toxins in the water and the plants are doing OK without additional
food you are probably feeding the right amount. :-)

Gill

[Gill Passman]

NetMax wrote:
> "Eric Ortega" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>I have a new 10g tank with a sand bottom and I've found that everything
>>that sits on the sand is very obvious.
>>
>>I've always heard that overfeeding your fish is a problem, and that you
>>shouldn't feed them more than what they can eat in a few minutes.
>>
>>Well, this made sense with my other tank that only has gravel, since I
>>couldn't easily see if food was just sitting at the bottom and rotting
>>away. Now, though, I've been experimenting with feeding the fish much
>>more at a time and seeing if they've eaten it all by the time I come
>>back later.
>>
>>It's always gone. I haven't put _ridiculous_ amounts of food in there
>>or
>>anything, but, inevitably, after a few hours the fish will have eaten
>>everything.
>>
>>So, this brings up the question, can you overfeed your fish even though
>>you can obviously tell that they're eating everything you feed them?
>>It
>>might sound pedantic but it always crosses my mind now that I can
>>actually
>>experiment with it.
>
>
>
> Can a person over-eat if they swallow everything? Same answer, similar
> results, though the first effect is that their smaller environment shows
> the effects of the pollution (fish waste) faster, requiring more
> maintenance (water changes and cleaning the filter). The next results
> are more comparable to terrestrial pets who have a reduced activity level
> coupled with an excess of food.
>
> Like mammals, I think fish expend most of their energy on locomotion and
> temperature regulation (metabolism), however being buoyant with their
> environment means their energy requirements for locomotion can be quite
> small (flap a fin and glide across to the other side of the tank), and
> being relatively cold-blooded means their energy requirements for warming
> their blood are also quite small. You might be more surprised by how
> little they need to eat, rather than by how much they can eat ;~).

Interesting one this....my guess is it will depend on the fish as to
whether they overeat and also on the type of fish as to how long it will
take for every morsel to go....Didn't NetMax post a few days ago the
story of a Clown Loach that gorged itself to death on snails? - so that
would say to me that it is possible for them to overeat although of
course it could have been coincidence with the loach.

For example if I accidently add too many Spirulina sticks to the Malawi
tank they will leave them....but my Cories and Plecs thrive on the food
that sinks the bottom and don't surface feed so there has to be
something left from the initial feeding frenzy or specific for them
(catfish pellets, sinking tabs, algae wafers) otherwise these fish would
starve. I wouldn't expect my bottom feeders to clean the gravel as
quickly as I would expect my top and mid feeders to guzzle up whatever
flakes I put in (average is around 30 secs for the top feeders which
makes me wonder sometimes if I'm underfeeding but they get fed twice a
day similar quantities so I work it out as 1 minute of feeding). Part of
the reason for this is that they've got to find it in the first place...

So from this I would ask what type of fish you have? and also whether
you saw any increase in waste products such as ammonia or nitrite when
doing this?

Gill

[Dick]

On Thu, 10 Nov 2005 15:22:51 +0000, Gill Passman
> wrote:

>Dick wrote:
>> On Wed, 9 Nov 2005 23:55:21 -0500, "NetMax"
>> > wrote:
>>
>>
>>>"Eric Ortega" > wrote in message
...
>>>
>>>>I have a new 10g tank with a sand bottom and I've found that everything
>>>>that sits on the sand is very obvious.
>>>>
>>>>I've always heard that overfeeding your fish is a problem, and that you
>>>>shouldn't feed them more than what they can eat in a few minutes.
>>>>
>>>>Well, this made sense with my other tank that only has gravel, since I
>>>>couldn't easily see if food was just sitting at the bottom and rotting
>>>>away. Now, though, I've been experimenting with feeding the fish much
>>>>more at a time and seeing if they've eaten it all by the time I come
>>>>back later.
>>>>
>>>>It's always gone. I haven't put _ridiculous_ amounts of food in there
>>>>or
>>>>anything, but, inevitably, after a few hours the fish will have eaten
>>>>everything.
>>>>
>>>>So, this brings up the question, can you overfeed your fish even though
>>>>you can obviously tell that they're eating everything you feed them?
>>>>It
>>>>might sound pedantic but it always crosses my mind now that I can
>>>>actually
>>>>experiment with it.
>>>
>>>
>>>Can a person over-eat if they swallow everything? Same answer, similar
>>>results, though the first effect is that their smaller environment shows
>>>the effects of the pollution (fish waste) faster, requiring more
>>>maintenance (water changes and cleaning the filter). The next results
>>>are more comparable to terrestrial pets who have a reduced activity level
>>>coupled with an excess of food.
>>>
>>>Like mammals, I think fish expend most of their energy on locomotion and
>>>temperature regulation (metabolism), however being buoyant with their
>>>environment means their energy requirements for locomotion can be quite
>>>small (flap a fin and glide across to the other side of the tank), and
>>>being relatively cold-blooded means their energy requirements for warming
>>>their blood are also quite small. You might be more surprised by how
>>>little they need to eat, rather than by how much they can eat ;~).
>>
>>
>> After 3 years of serving my fish, I still worry about the food
>> procedures. I see two bookends to be resolved. At one extreme, too
>> much food resulting in cloudy water. The other extreme is too little
>> food not only resulting in unhealthy fish, but lack of nutrients for
>> the plants. I rely totally on fish waste to feed the plants in my
>> tanks.
>>
>> Any comments about under feeding?
>>
>> dick
>
>I would say after 3 years if the fish are fine and healthy, you don't
>have toxins in the water and the plants are doing OK without additional
>food you are probably feeding the right amount. :-)
>
>Gill

It may be that my 20% twice weekly water changes is masking over
feeding. Once I experimented with minimul feeding and I thought some
Anubias were not looking so healthy, but it may have been guilt for
cutting the daily feeding from twice a day to once a day.

Just curious if anyone had any thoughts on under feeding.

dick

[Ali Day]

> It may be that my 20% twice weekly water changes is masking over
> feeding. Once I experimented with minimul feeding and I thought some
> Anubias were not looking so healthy, but it may have been guilt for
> cutting the daily feeding from twice a day to once a day.
>
> Just curious if anyone had any thoughts on under feeding.

I tend to feed irregularly, for one main reason which was explained to me by
one of the guys in my LFS. If the fish start seeing a pattern in their
feeding then general tank maintenance that should be done by the fish starts
to get over looked. i.e. The clowns will cut back rooting round in the
gravel hoovering up missed food and the gravel starts to stagnate, the SAE's
ottos and plec cut back on the algae being eaten, the guppies and angels
keep the plants pretty clean as well, picking at hair algae and anything on
the leaves. if the fish have to search for food then the turn most of the
gravel over and everything keep moving.

I tend to go a couple of days feeding twice a day, then one a day, then a
day or so with no food.

cheers

A

[Eric Ortega]

Thanks all for your responses. Looks like there just isn't much need to
tinker around with how much I can feed them.

I have noticed that the fish can get by on a lot less food than I
expected, but I never had the opportunity to overfeed them without being
worried about food just falling into nooks and crannies.

In any case, thanks for the discussion.

[Koi-lo]

"Dick" > wrote in message
...
> It may be that my 20% twice weekly water changes is masking over
> feeding. Once I experimented with minimul feeding and I thought some
> Anubias were not looking so healthy, but it may have been guilt for
> cutting the daily feeding from twice a day to once a day.
>
> Just curious if anyone had any thoughts on under feeding.
=======================
That strikes me as cruel and something I wouldn't do to my fish or any pets
I may have. I would rather do a little more maintenance and know they're
comfortably well fed.
--

My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastadaisy
~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>

[NetMax]

"Ali Day" > wrote in message
...
>> It may be that my 20% twice weekly water changes is masking over
>> feeding. Once I experimented with minimul feeding and I thought some
>> Anubias were not looking so healthy, but it may have been guilt for
>> cutting the daily feeding from twice a day to once a day.
>>
>> Just curious if anyone had any thoughts on under feeding.
>
> I tend to feed irregularly, for one main reason which was explained to
> me by one of the guys in my LFS. If the fish start seeing a pattern in
> their feeding then general tank maintenance that should be done by the
> fish starts to get over looked. i.e. The clowns will cut back rooting
> round in the gravel hoovering up missed food and the gravel starts to
> stagnate, the SAE's ottos and plec cut back on the algae being eaten,
> the guppies and angels keep the plants pretty clean as well, picking at
> hair algae and anything on the leaves. if the fish have to search for
> food then the turn most of the gravel over and everything keep moving.
>
> I tend to go a couple of days feeding twice a day, then one a day, then
> a day or so with no food.
>
> cheers
>
> A


Lol, thanks for that Ali. Makes perfect sense, and I'm running so many
auto-feeders :o(.

One of these days (when I retire), I'm going to design an aquarium canopy
with significant processing power (for staged lighting, parameter
tracking, etc) and now I'm going to have to think about adding a random
generator to the auto-feeder's window of operation.
--
www.NetMax.tk

[Daniel Morrow]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Bottom posted.

- --
You can find my public key at https://keyserver1.pgp.com
"NetMax" > wrote in message
. ..
> "Ali Day" > wrote in message
> ...
> >> It may be that my 20% twice weekly water changes is masking
over
> >> feeding. Once I experimented with minimul feeding and I thought
some
> >> Anubias were not looking so healthy, but it may have been guilt
for
> >> cutting the daily feeding from twice a day to once a day.
> >>
> >> Just curious if anyone had any thoughts on under feeding.
> >
> > I tend to feed irregularly, for one main reason which was
explained to
> > me by one of the guys in my LFS. If the fish start seeing a
pattern in
> > their feeding then general tank maintenance that should be done
by the
> > fish starts to get over looked. i.e. The clowns will cut back
rooting
> > round in the gravel hoovering up missed food and the gravel
starts to
> > stagnate, the SAE's ottos and plec cut back on the algae being
eaten,
> > the guppies and angels keep the plants pretty clean as well,
picking at
> > hair algae and anything on the leaves. if the fish have to search
for
> > food then the turn most of the gravel over and everything keep
moving.
> >
> > I tend to go a couple of days feeding twice a day, then one a
day, then
> > a day or so with no food.
> >
> > cheers
> >
> > A
>
>
> Lol, thanks for that Ali. Makes perfect sense, and I'm running so
many
> auto-feeders :o(.
>
> One of these days (when I retire), I'm going to design an aquarium
canopy
> with significant processing power (for staged lighting, parameter
> tracking, etc) and now I'm going to have to think about adding a
random
> generator to the auto-feeder's window of operation.
> --
> www.NetMax.tk
>
>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.2.1 (MingW32) - WinPT 0.7.96rc1

iQD1AwUBQ3VpVa2WfcjE5myzAQJLIwcAqmsgHkOVEVW15sXfut nUrD1vZDYFXQG8
tNEqY9X7j8wVjBd9l7a7/fE/eVrAKto0Z3SCqi+yKnvL8lPyCPlsuafcgcuhiRB4
dnjWuGLG1FYBPe/suTns5zeZDUZRGSNiPO6tl3Nn+a1S74s4MmXtbLJS7aA7apSy
KZUtm/cl+Hn/C8+r+Nfx+X3QvnWrCLCPoiItlCCvtCJjorLdV40JglB8y1xm+c Yx
fJ2f2CuQxR84IIHgxAIQzqacvwxa2J2P7SwYX6Ps833Rj7iwXT pdR2ucoKp5Osfl
qfWj7nu1Kw0=
=4ewi
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

[Daniel Morrow]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Mid posted.

- --
You can find my public key at https://keyserver1.pgp.com
"Daniel Morrow" > wrote in message
...
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
> Bottom posted.
>
> - --
> You can find my public key at https://keyserver1.pgp.com
> "NetMax" > wrote in message
> . ..
> > "Ali Day" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > >> It may be that my 20% twice weekly water changes is masking
> over
> > >> feeding. Once I experimented with minimul feeding and I
thought
> some
> > >> Anubias were not looking so healthy, but it may have been
guilt
> for
> > >> cutting the daily feeding from twice a day to once a day.
> > >>
> > >> Just curious if anyone had any thoughts on under feeding.
> > >
> > > I tend to feed irregularly, for one main reason which was
> explained to
> > > me by one of the guys in my LFS. If the fish start seeing a
> pattern in
> > > their feeding then general tank maintenance that should be
done
> by the
> > > fish starts to get over looked. i.e. The clowns will cut back
> rooting
> > > round in the gravel hoovering up missed food and the gravel
> starts to
> > > stagnate, the SAE's ottos and plec cut back on the algae being
> eaten,
> > > the guppies and angels keep the plants pretty clean as well,
> picking at
> > > hair algae and anything on the leaves. if the fish have to
search
> for
> > > food then the turn most of the gravel over and everything keep
> moving.
> > >
> > > I tend to go a couple of days feeding twice a day, then one a
> day, then
> > > a day or so with no food.
> > >
> > > cheers
> > >
> > > A
> >
> >
> > Lol, thanks for that Ali. Makes perfect sense, and I'm running
so
> many
> > auto-feeders :o(.
> >
> > One of these days (when I retire), I'm going to design an
aquarium
> canopy
> > with significant processing power (for staged lighting,
parameter
> > tracking, etc) and now I'm going to have to think about adding a
> random
> > generator to the auto-feeder's window of operation.
> > --
> > www.NetMax.tk
> >


We all know you are perfectly capable of doing those things Netmax!
:-p


>
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
> Version: GnuPG v1.2.1 (MingW32) - WinPT 0.7.96rc1
>
> iQD1AwUBQ3VpVa2WfcjE5myzAQJLIwcAqmsgHkOVEVW15sXfut nUrD1vZDYFXQG8
> tNEqY9X7j8wVjBd9l7a7/fE/eVrAKto0Z3SCqi+yKnvL8lPyCPlsuafcgcuhiRB4
> dnjWuGLG1FYBPe/suTns5zeZDUZRGSNiPO6tl3Nn+a1S74s4MmXtbLJS7aA7apSy
> KZUtm/cl+Hn/C8+r+Nfx+X3QvnWrCLCPoiItlCCvtCJjorLdV40JglB8y1xm+c Yx
> fJ2f2CuQxR84IIHgxAIQzqacvwxa2J2P7SwYX6Ps833Rj7iwXT pdR2ucoKp5Osfl
> qfWj7nu1Kw0=
> =4ewi
> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
>
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.2.1 (MingW32) - WinPT 0.7.96rc1

iQD1AwUBQ3V2zq2WfcjE5myzAQI9UgcAlo5pYt4189uOq9IIy6 jcxNItnxpzDntU
Fb9lchVJnd19ncZlFVslcz6k5npnujULNF20/gOjwAQrfA1sGuRU4bQCkPQsu5c9
00wswbRe1Nv3lA5whLHVde1fus86jvCeXictf4JCDIU/xSNkg1AT1IF2EqevlBKq
sMCpzj4IEUYHlJU2wFuilTKErnomF1D8xIWEmwB1145iAfAl8u WSquSCvySbYu7K
0oppUb13vjXJyMYMipxxGEt0j24WwhAXPVCsUKfOcI7b7KIkX8 idXB5qxt6kB8/L
5LJXAbC86js=
=Nh2T
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

[NetMax]

"Daniel Morrow" > wrote in message
...
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
> Mid posted.
>
> - --
> You can find my public key at https://keyserver1.pgp.com
> "Daniel Morrow" > wrote in message
> ...
>> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>> Hash: SHA1
>>
>> Bottom posted.
>>
>> - --
>> You can find my public key at https://keyserver1.pgp.com
>> "NetMax" > wrote in message
>> . ..
>> > "Ali Day" > wrote in message
>> > ...
>> > >> It may be that my 20% twice weekly water changes is masking
>> over
>> > >> feeding. Once I experimented with minimul feeding and I
> thought
>> some
>> > >> Anubias were not looking so healthy, but it may have been
> guilt
>> for
>> > >> cutting the daily feeding from twice a day to once a day.
>> > >>
>> > >> Just curious if anyone had any thoughts on under feeding.
>> > >
>> > > I tend to feed irregularly, for one main reason which was
>> explained to
>> > > me by one of the guys in my LFS. If the fish start seeing a
>> pattern in
>> > > their feeding then general tank maintenance that should be
> done
>> by the
>> > > fish starts to get over looked. i.e. The clowns will cut back
>> rooting
>> > > round in the gravel hoovering up missed food and the gravel
>> starts to
>> > > stagnate, the SAE's ottos and plec cut back on the algae being
>> eaten,
>> > > the guppies and angels keep the plants pretty clean as well,
>> picking at
>> > > hair algae and anything on the leaves. if the fish have to
> search
>> for
>> > > food then the turn most of the gravel over and everything keep
>> moving.
>> > >
>> > > I tend to go a couple of days feeding twice a day, then one a
>> day, then
>> > > a day or so with no food.
>> > >
>> > > cheers
>> > >
>> > > A
>> >
>> >
>> > Lol, thanks for that Ali. Makes perfect sense, and I'm running
> so
>> many
>> > auto-feeders :o(.
>> >
>> > One of these days (when I retire), I'm going to design an
> aquarium
>> canopy
>> > with significant processing power (for staged lighting,
> parameter
>> > tracking, etc) and now I'm going to have to think about adding a
>> random
>> > generator to the auto-feeder's window of operation.
>> > --
>> > www.NetMax.tk
>> >
>
>
> We all know you are perfectly capable of doing those things Netmax!
> :-p
>
>
>>
>> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
>> Version: GnuPG v1.2.1 (MingW32) - WinPT 0.7.96rc1
>>
>> iQD1AwUBQ3VpVa2WfcjE5myzAQJLIwcAqmsgHkOVEVW15sXfut nUrD1vZDYFXQG8
>> tNEqY9X7j8wVjBd9l7a7/fE/eVrAKto0Z3SCqi+yKnvL8lPyCPlsuafcgcuhiRB4
>> dnjWuGLG1FYBPe/suTns5zeZDUZRGSNiPO6tl3Nn+a1S74s4MmXtbLJS7aA7apSy
>> KZUtm/cl+Hn/C8+r+Nfx+X3QvnWrCLCPoiItlCCvtCJjorLdV40JglB8y1xm+c Yx
>> fJ2f2CuQxR84IIHgxAIQzqacvwxa2J2P7SwYX6Ps833Rj7iwXT pdR2ucoKp5Osfl
>> qfWj7nu1Kw0=
>> =4ewi
>> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
>>
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
> Version: GnuPG v1.2.1 (MingW32) - WinPT 0.7.96rc1
>
> iQD1AwUBQ3V2zq2WfcjE5myzAQI9UgcAlo5pYt4189uOq9IIy6 jcxNItnxpzDntU
> Fb9lchVJnd19ncZlFVslcz6k5npnujULNF20/gOjwAQrfA1sGuRU4bQCkPQsu5c9
> 00wswbRe1Nv3lA5whLHVde1fus86jvCeXictf4JCDIU/xSNkg1AT1IF2EqevlBKq
> sMCpzj4IEUYHlJU2wFuilTKErnomF1D8xIWEmwB1145iAfAl8u WSquSCvySbYu7K
> 0oppUb13vjXJyMYMipxxGEt0j24WwhAXPVCsUKfOcI7b7KIkX8 idXB5qxt6kB8/L
> 5LJXAbC86js=
> =Nh2T
> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


Daniel, you must think my eyesight and patience is a lot better than it
really is, to be hiding this deeply in PGP signed digital verification
;~).

later ;~)
--
www.NetMax.tk

[Koi-lo]

"NetMax" > wrote in message
...
> "Daniel Morrow" > wrote in message
> Daniel, you must think my eyesight and patience is a lot better than it
> really is, to be hiding this deeply in PGP signed digital verification
===============
I couldn't find his reply in the first message. It must have been lost in
all the gobbledygook. :-(
--
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastadaisy
~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>

[Dick]

On Fri, 11 Nov 2005 20:32:01 -0600, "Koi-lo" >
wrote:

>
>"Dick" > wrote in message
...
>> It may be that my 20% twice weekly water changes is masking over
>> feeding. Once I experimented with minimul feeding and I thought some
>> Anubias were not looking so healthy, but it may have been guilt for
>> cutting the daily feeding from twice a day to once a day.
>>
>> Just curious if anyone had any thoughts on under feeding.
>=======================
>That strikes me as cruel and something I wouldn't do to my fish or any pets
>I may have. I would rather do a little more maintenance and know they're
>comfortably well fed.

There have been studies that indicate some animals live longer if fed
less. Less human feeding might be better and encourage feeding from
algae. However, then I have my concern about having enough fish waste
to keep the plants healthy.

Over feeding could also be seen as "cruel."

In nature, our fish would have to expend a lot of energy to be fed and
I would imagine, would have anything but regular feeding periods.

dick

[Koi-lo]

"Dick" > wrote in message
...
> On Fri, 11 Nov 2005 20:32:01 -0600, "Koi-lo" >
> wrote:
>
>>
>>"Dick" > wrote in message
...
>>> It may be that my 20% twice weekly water changes is masking over
>>> feeding. Once I experimented with minimul feeding and I thought some
>>> Anubias were not looking so healthy, but it may have been guilt for
>>> cutting the daily feeding from twice a day to once a day.
>>>
>>> Just curious if anyone had any thoughts on under feeding.
>>=======================
>>That strikes me as cruel and something I wouldn't do to my fish or any
>>pets
>>I may have. I would rather do a little more maintenance and know they're
>>comfortably well fed.
================================
> There have been studies that indicate some animals live longer if fed
> less.

$$ I read that also. But I believe there is a fine line between being
healthy and being "underfed." Underfeeding our fish is not conductive to
getting enough nutrition into them. They're already on artificial diets for
the most part. After keeping fish for awhile you get the feel of it -
healthy but not fat fish. I've seen some koi this past summer that looked
like stuffed sausages. I agree, that can't be healthy for them or any fish.
I believe this is where fatty liver disease comes from. Overfed,
overstuffed fish that do nothing but wait for the next tidbit the doting
owner will drop into their waiting mouths.

Less human feeding might be better and encourage feeding from
> algae. However, then I have my concern about having enough fish waste
> to keep the plants healthy.

$$ Algae isn't the preferred food for many fish. Allowing them to get
hungry enough to scrounge algae is somehow repugnant to me - unless they are
algae eaters. Even then I always dropped in a algae wafer for my plecos to
make sure they had enough.

> Over feeding could also be seen as "cruel."

$$ That's why there needs to be a balance. Well fed but not STUFFED to the
gills so to speak. :-)

nature, our fish would have to expend a lot of energy to be fed and
> I would imagine, would have anything but regular feeding periods.

$$ And we don't know exactly what they would consume or how much either.
Trial and error.....

My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastadaisy
~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>

[Daniel Morrow]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Ooooops! Sorry about that. :-)

- --
You can find my public key at https://keyserver1.pgp.com
"NetMax" > wrote in message
...
> "Daniel Morrow" > wrote in message
> ...
> > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> > Hash: SHA1
> >
> > Mid posted.
> >
> > - --
> > You can find my public key at https://keyserver1.pgp.com
> > "Daniel Morrow" > wrote in message
> > ...
> >> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> >> Hash: SHA1
> >>
> >> Bottom posted.
> >>
> >> - --
> >> You can find my public key at https://keyserver1.pgp.com
> >
> >
> > We all know you are perfectly capable of doing those things
Netmax!
> > :-p
> Daniel, you must think my eyesight and patience is a lot better
than it
> really is, to be hiding this deeply in PGP signed digital
verification
> ;~).
>
> later ;~)
> --
> www.NetMax.tk
>
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.2.1 (MingW32) - WinPT 0.7.96rc1

iQD1AwUBQ3a8ba2WfcjE5myzAQIiIAb+Iy4khwfojuE00y8xvG pRR3FUUHyebaS9
NVtsgEQd4RkYFvdzBw0un8Wr7K9Cfc5pXYgyROaIWdERxpSDPQ 8DYcXa3seT2beD
LYZtzwDJanTUUcnszpI0HvLm+34W3Rzvnv17qlOIVSzJ5CNZ9G 0suCXs5lC4gAxB
HuUJos5RIp6W50PamV8k96Dzu+ed7XZkEfJ4ZKEg/EU8rDiC9E6HsMztPl7txUKV
4ORx4M7R1CyHl1k4SeFHBlxA1M4ZIQHGc/koWaqvclZM6JtB4nHrS9sQrBTEncoK
aFSpXhpHP4U=
=Qk9B
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

[NetMax]

"Koi-lo" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Dick" > wrote in message
> ...
>> On Fri, 11 Nov 2005 20:32:01 -0600, "Koi-lo" >
>> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>"Dick" > wrote in message
...
>>>> It may be that my 20% twice weekly water changes is masking over
>>>> feeding. Once I experimented with minimul feeding and I thought
>>>> some
>>>> Anubias were not looking so healthy, but it may have been guilt for
>>>> cutting the daily feeding from twice a day to once a day.
>>>>
>>>> Just curious if anyone had any thoughts on under feeding.
>>>=======================
>>>That strikes me as cruel and something I wouldn't do to my fish or any
>>>pets
>>>I may have. I would rather do a little more maintenance and know
>>>they're
>>>comfortably well fed.
> ================================
>> There have been studies that indicate some animals live longer if fed
>> less.
>
> $$ I read that also. But I believe there is a fine line between being
> healthy and being "underfed." Underfeeding our fish is not conductive
> to getting enough nutrition into them. They're already on artificial
> diets for the most part. After keeping fish for awhile you get the
> feel of it - healthy but not fat fish. I've seen some koi this past
> summer that looked like stuffed sausages. I agree, that can't be
> healthy for them or any fish. I believe this is where fatty liver
> disease comes from. Overfed, overstuffed fish that do nothing but wait
> for the next tidbit the doting owner will drop into their waiting
> mouths.
>
> Less human feeding might be better and encourage feeding from
>> algae. However, then I have my concern about having enough fish waste
>> to keep the plants healthy.
>
> $$ Algae isn't the preferred food for many fish. Allowing them to get
> hungry enough to scrounge algae is somehow repugnant to me - unless
> they are algae eaters. Even then I always dropped in a algae wafer for
> my plecos to make sure they had enough.
>
>> Over feeding could also be seen as "cruel."
>
> $$ That's why there needs to be a balance. Well fed but not STUFFED to
> the gills so to speak. :-)
>
> nature, our fish would have to expend a lot of energy to be fed and
>> I would imagine, would have anything but regular feeding periods.
>
> $$ And we don't know exactly what they would consume or how much
> either. Trial and error.....
>
> My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
> http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastadaisy


There's an incredible amount of differing opinions on many things in this
hobby (it's a wonder we all get along sometimes ;~), but I've noticed
that as people gain experience and familiarity, that the gap between
opinions starts to close. Interestingly (to me), this particular topic
(proper amount of foods and food types) is one subject where the gap does
not seem to close with experience. I meet very knowledgeable
fish-keepers who either overfeed or underfeed (in my very limited
subjective opinion), and they can support their techniques with credible
data.

It's probably valid to say that whatever amount you're feeding, you
should adjust your maintenance accordingly. If you think that you feed a
lot, then you need more biological filtration, more frequent cleaning of
mechanical filtration and any areas which collect detritus (more gravel
vacuuming), and more dilution of dissolved organic compounds (more water
changes). At least the maintenance requirements are usually a point
which experienced aquarists can agree on ;~).
--
www.NetMax.tk

[Dick]

On Sun, 13 Nov 2005 01:08:09 -0500, "NetMax"
> wrote:

>
>It's probably valid to say that whatever amount you're feeding, you
>should adjust your maintenance accordingly. If you think that you feed a
>lot, then you need more biological filtration, more frequent cleaning of
>mechanical filtration and any areas which collect detritus (more gravel
>vacuuming), and more dilution of dissolved organic compounds (more water
>changes). At least the maintenance requirements are usually a point
>which experienced aquarists can agree on ;~).
>--
>www.NetMax.tk
>

Sorry to say, NetMax, I do not find filtration as important as regular
water changes. I do 20% twice a week. I only clean the filtration
media when the water spills over the inlet. One big influence on my
thinking comes from the 3 Whisper Jr.s I use on my 10 gallon tanks.
The intake ends half way from the bottom, so not much bottom stuff is
removed. The Whispers tend to pass less water over time between
cleaning. One of the Whispers got so slow barely any water was coming
out. It dawned on me, the tank this Whisper was on was one of my
cleanest, also the one with the most small snails and 3 nickel size.
Filtration obviously, was not responsible. This tank also has the
most beautiful, large Anubi that I have cut in half because of its
size, and once more fills over half the 10 gallon tank.

All 5 of my tanks are very clean looking, I don't try to vacuum the
bottoms, but never see any solid waste on the bottom. My conclusion
is the bacterial activity in my tanks is capable of processing the
waste and is sufficient to "feed" the plants. The water changes keep
the solid waste ratio from becomming toxic.

So much for agreement, who needs it anyway? <g>

dick

[NetMax]

"Dick" > wrote in message
...
> On Sun, 13 Nov 2005 01:08:09 -0500, "NetMax"
> > wrote:
>
>>
>>It's probably valid to say that whatever amount you're feeding, you
>>should adjust your maintenance accordingly. If you think that you feed
>>a
>>lot, then you need more biological filtration, more frequent cleaning
>>of
>>mechanical filtration and any areas which collect detritus (more gravel
>>vacuuming), and more dilution of dissolved organic compounds (more
>>water
>>changes). At least the maintenance requirements are usually a point
>>which experienced aquarists can agree on ;~).
>>--
>>www.NetMax.tk
>>
>
> Sorry to say, NetMax, I do not find filtration as important as regular
> water changes. I do 20% twice a week. I only clean the filtration
> media when the water spills over the inlet. One big influence on my
> thinking comes from the 3 Whisper Jr.s I use on my 10 gallon tanks.
> The intake ends half way from the bottom, so not much bottom stuff is
> removed. The Whispers tend to pass less water over time between
> cleaning. One of the Whispers got so slow barely any water was coming
> out. It dawned on me, the tank this Whisper was on was one of my
> cleanest, also the one with the most small snails and 3 nickel size.
> Filtration obviously, was not responsible. This tank also has the
> most beautiful, large Anubi that I have cut in half because of its
> size, and once more fills over half the 10 gallon tank.
>
> All 5 of my tanks are very clean looking, I don't try to vacuum the
> bottoms, but never see any solid waste on the bottom. My conclusion
> is the bacterial activity in my tanks is capable of processing the
> waste and is sufficient to "feed" the plants. The water changes keep
> the solid waste ratio from becomming toxic.
>
> So much for agreement, who needs it anyway? <g>
>
> dick

Filtration is about removing something. Solid waste or detritus (fish
poop, organic matter, uneaten food) slowly dissolves back into the water.
Depending on your fish load and the amount/type of filtration, you may or
may not need to get this out when it's in its solid form, but rather when
it's in its liquid form through water changes.

With a planted tank, the plants are part of your filtration system,
helping break down solids and filtering liquids. The 'ideal' tank (from
a filtration set-up) is sized such that the filters never need to be
cleaned, as the solids dissolve faster than they accumulate. I've seen
tanks like this. The only maintenance is the water changes. Confused
the heck out of some of my clients.
--
www.NetMax.tk

[Dick]

On Mon, 14 Nov 2005 20:29:04 -0500, "NetMax"
> wrote:

>"Dick" > wrote in message
...
>> On Sun, 13 Nov 2005 01:08:09 -0500, "NetMax"
>> > wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>It's probably valid to say that whatever amount you're feeding, you
>>>should adjust your maintenance accordingly. If you think that you feed
>>>a
>>>lot, then you need more biological filtration, more frequent cleaning
>>>of
>>>mechanical filtration and any areas which collect detritus (more gravel
>>>vacuuming), and more dilution of dissolved organic compounds (more
>>>water
>>>changes). At least the maintenance requirements are usually a point
>>>which experienced aquarists can agree on ;~).
>>>--
>>>www.NetMax.tk
>>>
>>
>> Sorry to say, NetMax, I do not find filtration as important as regular
>> water changes. I do 20% twice a week. I only clean the filtration
>> media when the water spills over the inlet. One big influence on my
>> thinking comes from the 3 Whisper Jr.s I use on my 10 gallon tanks.
>> The intake ends half way from the bottom, so not much bottom stuff is
>> removed. The Whispers tend to pass less water over time between
>> cleaning. One of the Whispers got so slow barely any water was coming
>> out. It dawned on me, the tank this Whisper was on was one of my
>> cleanest, also the one with the most small snails and 3 nickel size.
>> Filtration obviously, was not responsible. This tank also has the
>> most beautiful, large Anubi that I have cut in half because of its
>> size, and once more fills over half the 10 gallon tank.
>>
>> All 5 of my tanks are very clean looking, I don't try to vacuum the
>> bottoms, but never see any solid waste on the bottom. My conclusion
>> is the bacterial activity in my tanks is capable of processing the
>> waste and is sufficient to "feed" the plants. The water changes keep
>> the solid waste ratio from becomming toxic.
>>
>> So much for agreement, who needs it anyway? <g>
>>
>> dick
>
>Filtration is about removing something. Solid waste or detritus (fish
>poop, organic matter, uneaten food) slowly dissolves back into the water.
>Depending on your fish load and the amount/type of filtration, you may or
>may not need to get this out when it's in its solid form, but rather when
>it's in its liquid form through water changes.
>

It is my opinion filtration is more about "straining" the solids,
making the larger particles finer so the bacteria can better transform
them. Erosion is bound to be wearing larger particles down as a river
makes rock into sand. Just my opinion, but it fits with my attitude
toward filtration. I clean or change the filtration media only
because it has become so clogged, the incoming water flows around the
media. I have left media alone for months, especially in a 29 gallon
Jebo tank with built in filter system.

The water changes does not remove the micro solids any more than the
pure h2O, it is in proportion to the water mixture ratio. I do not
vacuum the bottom as I have no visible solids to remove.

My explaination and theory may be wrong, but I am quite pleased with
the results.

I have had tanks before starting as a teenager and never had such good
results and so little maintenance.


dick

>With a planted tank, the plants are part of your filtration system,
>helping break down solids and filtering liquids. The 'ideal' tank (from
>a filtration set-up) is sized such that the filters never need to be
>cleaned, as the solids dissolve faster than they accumulate. I've seen
>tanks like this. The only maintenance is the water changes. Confused
>the heck out of some of my clients.

[NetMax]

"Dick" > wrote in message
...
> On Mon, 14 Nov 2005 20:29:04 -0500, "NetMax"
> > wrote:
>
>>"Dick" > wrote in message
...
>>> On Sun, 13 Nov 2005 01:08:09 -0500, "NetMax"
>>> > wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>>It's probably valid to say that whatever amount you're feeding, you
>>>>should adjust your maintenance accordingly. If you think that you
>>>>feed
>>>>a
>>>>lot, then you need more biological filtration, more frequent cleaning
>>>>of
>>>>mechanical filtration and any areas which collect detritus (more
>>>>gravel
>>>>vacuuming), and more dilution of dissolved organic compounds (more
>>>>water
>>>>changes). At least the maintenance requirements are usually a point
>>>>which experienced aquarists can agree on ;~).
>>>>--
>>>>www.NetMax.tk
>>>>
>>>
>>> Sorry to say, NetMax, I do not find filtration as important as
>>> regular
>>> water changes. I do 20% twice a week. I only clean the filtration
>>> media when the water spills over the inlet. One big influence on my
>>> thinking comes from the 3 Whisper Jr.s I use on my 10 gallon tanks.
>>> The intake ends half way from the bottom, so not much bottom stuff is
>>> removed. The Whispers tend to pass less water over time between
>>> cleaning. One of the Whispers got so slow barely any water was
>>> coming
>>> out. It dawned on me, the tank this Whisper was on was one of my
>>> cleanest, also the one with the most small snails and 3 nickel size.
>>> Filtration obviously, was not responsible. This tank also has the
>>> most beautiful, large Anubi that I have cut in half because of its
>>> size, and once more fills over half the 10 gallon tank.
>>>
>>> All 5 of my tanks are very clean looking, I don't try to vacuum the
>>> bottoms, but never see any solid waste on the bottom. My conclusion
>>> is the bacterial activity in my tanks is capable of processing the
>>> waste and is sufficient to "feed" the plants. The water changes keep
>>> the solid waste ratio from becomming toxic.
>>>
>>> So much for agreement, who needs it anyway? <g>
>>>
>>> dick
>>
>>Filtration is about removing something. Solid waste or detritus (fish
>>poop, organic matter, uneaten food) slowly dissolves back into the
>>water.

Then we won't talk about chemical filtration or biological filtration
;~). I've learned that there are many ways in aquaria to get good
results, and to not argue with anyone's success.
--
www.NetMax.tk

>>Depending on your fish load and the amount/type of filtration, you may
>>or
>>may not need to get this out when it's in its solid form, but rather
>>when
>>it's in its liquid form through water changes.
>>
>
> It is my opinion filtration is more about "straining" the solids,
> making the larger particles finer so the bacteria can better transform
> them. Erosion is bound to be wearing larger particles down as a river
> makes rock into sand. Just my opinion, but it fits with my attitude
> toward filtration. I clean or change the filtration media only
> because it has become so clogged, the incoming water flows around the
> media. I have left media alone for months, especially in a 29 gallon
> Jebo tank with built in filter system.
>
> The water changes does not remove the micro solids any more than the
> pure h2O, it is in proportion to the water mixture ratio. I do not
> vacuum the bottom as I have no visible solids to remove.
>
> My explaination and theory may be wrong, but I am quite pleased with
> the results.
>
> I have had tanks before starting as a teenager and never had such good
> results and so little maintenance.
>
>
> dick
>
>>With a planted tank, the plants are part of your filtration system,
>>helping break down solids and filtering liquids. The 'ideal' tank
>>(from
>>a filtration set-up) is sized such that the filters never need to be
>>cleaned, as the solids dissolve faster than they accumulate. I've seen
>>tanks like this. The only maintenance is the water changes. Confused
>>the heck out of some of my clients.
>