Aquarium's Evolution

[Larry Blanchard]

On Sat, 12 Nov 2005 00:35:36 -0500, NetMax wrote:

>
> The question is, would it sell. Would you buy one? Is it complete,
> anything missing?

Well, some of it, like the changing lighting, sounds nice, but the whole
thing reminds me of computerizing a model railroad - takes all the fun out
of operating it :-).

And with the number of heaters I've had die on me, I'd be really leery of
building one into the canopy unless it was easily replaceable. In fact,
that would apply to most of the components you've imagineered.

[NetMax]

I'm going to make a prediction that the next major leap in aquarium
design will be the canopy. I've watched technologies evolve, filters,
filter media, heaters, lighting technologies, feeding systems and water
parameter related equipment. Occasionally some of these technologies
have imbedded themselves into the canopy. For example, 8 years ago, an
Italian aquarium manufacturer had an auto-feeder built into a canopy with
T6 fluorescent lighting. They were a little ahead of their time.
Marineland has a line of tanks with their filters built into the canopy,
and the design has persisted, even with many drawbacks.

The canopy of the future will resemble what we have today, but will be
much bigger, possibly 8 to 12" thick. It will incorporate things like:

1. Filter system
- integrated biowheel, and sponge media which would be serviced through a
hatch in the canopy.
- backwash capability into overflows (see para. 7. below)

2. Storage
- nets, test kits etc

3. Heater
- why use precious aquarium real-estate for an unsightly heater

4. Food storage
- empty/mix all your dried fish foods, pellets, flakes, freeze-dried etc
into a compartment which is sealed when the hatch is closed.
- there is a screw-type feeder with rubber blades (to keep humidity away
from the food) operated/programmed from a keypad (integrated into the
canopy)
- level indicator (proximity switch) provides visual indicator of low
food levels (ie: by reversing light operation to get your attention)
- filters would automatically turn off for 10 minutes during feeding

5. Light System
- staged lighting, programmed from same keypad
- dawn/dusk lights, small halogen making a spot light effect, with
ripples shadowing the substrate, used to transition to/from nightfall and
daylight main lighting
- main lights (two CF groups, morning 1/2 on, mid-day all on, and evening
1/2 on again)
- programmed variability (cloudy periods) to reduce algae (currently done
with timers set to 1 hour off)
- twilight lighting (typically red or actinic) not programmed, set
manually, for those bottle of wine by the fire late evenings.

6. Ventilation & Cooling
- all that lighting will require that the ballasts are in a separate
vented area (separate from the air under the canopy)
- stainless steel tubing (with cooling fins) replaces conventional hoses,
allowing atmospheric cooling using a small fan triggered by a
thermocouple.

7. Water/Atmospheric control
- pH regulated through CO2 injected inside canopy (or skip to next item)
- low pH amber/tannic appearance through black-water concentrate pellets,
or processed/compressed leaf pellets
- kH regulated through baking soda pellets
- continuous monitoring of conductivity (TDS control)
- plumbed directly into home's DWV and cold water supply line (for
continuous water changes through a drip system)
- thermocouple (replaces thermometer), to activate dynamic cooling
(para.6) and reduce lighting to cool as required. (heater's thermocouple
would be a separate unit in-line with heating elements).
- backwash cycle which would pulse water in through the gravel, trapping
mulm in screens located near overflow pipes

8. Power distribution
- plug the canopy in and all peripherals connect to canopy's integrated
GFI protected power bar.

9. Water Purification option
- clear plastic bell fits on top of canopy (semi-integrated), housing
various bog/terrestrial plants whose roots would strip out any remaining
NO3 from non-planted tanks (silk plants would make a come back, but some
people will always want real plants).

10. Live Food option
- habitat section in canopy for growing small creatures (ie: white worms
in earth, feeding off decay from mechanical filtration stage, or mysis
shrimp hatchery etc). Hatchery occupants will randomly 'escape' into
main tank to be eaten.


Did I miss anything? Today, this equipment & electronics exist
separately, much of it in high volume consumer goods, except for:
a) the canopy itself (fairly straightforward mould with several options
and expansion panels to include odd sized aquarium dimensions).
b) the canopy horizontal filter (plastic moulds) utilizing twin
(redundancy) generic powerheads
c) the controller and fairly straightforward programming
d) integration of all the components

Alone, I could prototype this in about 6 years (it is that easy), so a
group of people could probably get one into pre-production testing in 12
months, and into production, 6 months after that.

The question is, would it sell. Would you buy one? Is it complete,
anything missing?
--
www.NetMax.tk

[Alpha]

"NetMax" > wrote in message
...
> I'm going to make a prediction that the next major leap in aquarium design
> will be the canopy. I've watched technologies evolve, filters, filter
> media, heaters, lighting technologies, feeding systems and water parameter
> related equipment. Occasionally some of these technologies have imbedded
> themselves into the canopy. For example, 8 years ago, an Italian aquarium
> manufacturer had an auto-feeder built into a canopy with T6 fluorescent
> lighting. They were a little ahead of their time. Marineland has a line
> of tanks with their filters built into the canopy, and the design has
> persisted, even with many drawbacks.
>
> The canopy of the future will resemble what we have today, but will be
> much bigger, possibly 8 to 12" thick. It will incorporate things like:
>
> 1. Filter system
> - integrated biowheel, and sponge media which would be serviced through a
> hatch in the canopy.
> - backwash capability into overflows (see para. 7. below)
>
> 2. Storage
> - nets, test kits etc
>
> 3. Heater
> - why use precious aquarium real-estate for an unsightly heater
>
> 4. Food storage
> - empty/mix all your dried fish foods, pellets, flakes, freeze-dried etc
> into a compartment which is sealed when the hatch is closed.
> - there is a screw-type feeder with rubber blades (to keep humidity away
> from the food) operated/programmed from a keypad (integrated into the
> canopy)
> - level indicator (proximity switch) provides visual indicator of low food
> levels (ie: by reversing light operation to get your attention)
> - filters would automatically turn off for 10 minutes during feeding
>
> 5. Light System
> - staged lighting, programmed from same keypad
> - dawn/dusk lights, small halogen making a spot light effect, with ripples
> shadowing the substrate, used to transition to/from nightfall and daylight
> main lighting
> - main lights (two CF groups, morning 1/2 on, mid-day all on, and evening
> 1/2 on again)
> - programmed variability (cloudy periods) to reduce algae (currently done
> with timers set to 1 hour off)
> - twilight lighting (typically red or actinic) not programmed, set
> manually, for those bottle of wine by the fire late evenings.
>
> 6. Ventilation & Cooling
> - all that lighting will require that the ballasts are in a separate
> vented area (separate from the air under the canopy)
> - stainless steel tubing (with cooling fins) replaces conventional hoses,
> allowing atmospheric cooling using a small fan triggered by a
> thermocouple.
>
> 7. Water/Atmospheric control
> - pH regulated through CO2 injected inside canopy (or skip to next item)
> - low pH amber/tannic appearance through black-water concentrate pellets,
> or processed/compressed leaf pellets
> - kH regulated through baking soda pellets
> - continuous monitoring of conductivity (TDS control)
> - plumbed directly into home's DWV and cold water supply line (for
> continuous water changes through a drip system)
> - thermocouple (replaces thermometer), to activate dynamic cooling
> (para.6) and reduce lighting to cool as required. (heater's thermocouple
> would be a separate unit in-line with heating elements).
> - backwash cycle which would pulse water in through the gravel, trapping
> mulm in screens located near overflow pipes
>
> 8. Power distribution
> - plug the canopy in and all peripherals connect to canopy's integrated
> GFI protected power bar.
>
> 9. Water Purification option
> - clear plastic bell fits on top of canopy (semi-integrated), housing
> various bog/terrestrial plants whose roots would strip out any remaining
> NO3 from non-planted tanks (silk plants would make a come back, but some
> people will always want real plants).
>
> 10. Live Food option
> - habitat section in canopy for growing small creatures (ie: white worms
> in earth, feeding off decay from mechanical filtration stage, or mysis
> shrimp hatchery etc). Hatchery occupants will randomly 'escape' into main
> tank to be eaten.
>
>
> Did I miss anything? Today, this equipment & electronics exist
> separately, much of it in high volume consumer goods, except for:
> a) the canopy itself (fairly straightforward mould with several options
> and expansion panels to include odd sized aquarium dimensions).
> b) the canopy horizontal filter (plastic moulds) utilizing twin
> (redundancy) generic powerheads
> c) the controller and fairly straightforward programming
> d) integration of all the components
>
> Alone, I could prototype this in about 6 years (it is that easy), so a
> group of people could probably get one into pre-production testing in 12
> months, and into production, 6 months after that.
>
> The question is, would it sell. Would you buy one? Is it complete,
> anything missing?
> --
> www.NetMax.tk
>

I would buy into this idea..particularly if the various components could be
modular and individually selected. All of what you say is perfectly
available now. In my situation, with severe space, weight, and maintenance
issues an integrated, modular system would be excellent.

[Graham Ramsay]

"NetMax" wrote

snipped

>
> The canopy of the future will resemble what we have today, but will be
> much bigger, possibly 8 to 12" thick. It will incorporate things like:
>

snipped

> The question is, would it sell. Would you buy one?

I wouldn't buy a foot thick canopy no. If anything I'd like
canopies to get smaller and less obtrusive.


--
Graham Ramsay
Secretary
Fair City Aquarist Society

[Gail Futoran]

"NetMax" > wrote in message
...
> I'm going to make a prediction that the next major leap in aquarium design
> will be the canopy. I've watched technologies evolve, filters, filter
> media, heaters, lighting technologies, feeding systems and water parameter
> related equipment. Occasionally some of these technologies have imbedded
> themselves into the canopy. For example, 8 years ago, an Italian aquarium
> manufacturer had an auto-feeder built into a canopy with T6 fluorescent
> lighting. They were a little ahead of their time. Marineland has a line
> of tanks with their filters built into the canopy, and the design has
> persisted, even with many drawbacks.
>
> The canopy of the future will resemble what we have today, but will be
> much bigger, possibly 8 to 12" thick. It will incorporate things like:
>
> 1. Filter system
> - integrated biowheel, and sponge media which would be serviced through a
> hatch in the canopy.
> - backwash capability into overflows (see para. 7. below)
>
> 2. Storage
> - nets, test kits etc
>
> 3. Heater
> - why use precious aquarium real-estate for an unsightly heater
>
> 4. Food storage
> - empty/mix all your dried fish foods, pellets, flakes, freeze-dried etc
> into a compartment which is sealed when the hatch is closed.
> - there is a screw-type feeder with rubber blades (to keep humidity away
> from the food) operated/programmed from a keypad (integrated into the
> canopy)
> - level indicator (proximity switch) provides visual indicator of low food
> levels (ie: by reversing light operation to get your attention)
> - filters would automatically turn off for 10 minutes during feeding
>
> 5. Light System
> - staged lighting, programmed from same keypad
> - dawn/dusk lights, small halogen making a spot light effect, with ripples
> shadowing the substrate, used to transition to/from nightfall and daylight
> main lighting
> - main lights (two CF groups, morning 1/2 on, mid-day all on, and evening
> 1/2 on again)
> - programmed variability (cloudy periods) to reduce algae (currently done
> with timers set to 1 hour off)
> - twilight lighting (typically red or actinic) not programmed, set
> manually, for those bottle of wine by the fire late evenings.
>
> 6. Ventilation & Cooling
> - all that lighting will require that the ballasts are in a separate
> vented area (separate from the air under the canopy)
> - stainless steel tubing (with cooling fins) replaces conventional hoses,
> allowing atmospheric cooling using a small fan triggered by a
> thermocouple.
>
> 7. Water/Atmospheric control
> - pH regulated through CO2 injected inside canopy (or skip to next item)
> - low pH amber/tannic appearance through black-water concentrate pellets,
> or processed/compressed leaf pellets
> - kH regulated through baking soda pellets
> - continuous monitoring of conductivity (TDS control)
> - plumbed directly into home's DWV and cold water supply line (for
> continuous water changes through a drip system)
> - thermocouple (replaces thermometer), to activate dynamic cooling
> (para.6) and reduce lighting to cool as required. (heater's thermocouple
> would be a separate unit in-line with heating elements).
> - backwash cycle which would pulse water in through the gravel, trapping
> mulm in screens located near overflow pipes
>
> 8. Power distribution
> - plug the canopy in and all peripherals connect to canopy's integrated
> GFI protected power bar.
>
> 9. Water Purification option
> - clear plastic bell fits on top of canopy (semi-integrated), housing
> various bog/terrestrial plants whose roots would strip out any remaining
> NO3 from non-planted tanks (silk plants would make a come back, but some
> people will always want real plants).
>
> 10. Live Food option
> - habitat section in canopy for growing small creatures (ie: white worms
> in earth, feeding off decay from mechanical filtration stage, or mysis
> shrimp hatchery etc). Hatchery occupants will randomly 'escape' into main
> tank to be eaten.
>
>
> Did I miss anything? Today, this equipment & electronics exist
> separately, much of it in high volume consumer goods, except for:
> a) the canopy itself (fairly straightforward mould with several options
> and expansion panels to include odd sized aquarium dimensions).
> b) the canopy horizontal filter (plastic moulds) utilizing twin
> (redundancy) generic powerheads
> c) the controller and fairly straightforward programming
> d) integration of all the components
>
> Alone, I could prototype this in about 6 years (it is that easy), so a
> group of people could probably get one into pre-production testing in 12
> months, and into production, 6 months after that.
>
> The question is, would it sell. Would you buy one? Is it complete,
> anything missing?
> --
> www.NetMax.tk

I would buy a canopy that included your
items 1, 3, 5, 6, 8 but the other items either
I don't need or use, or they would seem to
make the unit too bulky to be self-contained
(e.g., the food storage items). I *really* like
the idea of the heater built into the canopy.

BTW I do have heavily planted tanks but don't
use CO2 injection and it seems to work just fine.

Perhaps manufacturers will offer a line of
canopies from basic (my needs) to complex. :)

Gail

[Gill Passman]

NetMax wrote:
> I'm going to make a prediction that the next major leap in aquarium
> design will be the canopy. I've watched technologies evolve, filters,
> filter media, heaters, lighting technologies, feeding systems and water
> parameter related equipment. Occasionally some of these technologies
> have imbedded themselves into the canopy. For example, 8 years ago, an
> Italian aquarium manufacturer had an auto-feeder built into a canopy with
> T6 fluorescent lighting. They were a little ahead of their time.
> Marineland has a line of tanks with their filters built into the canopy,
> and the design has persisted, even with many drawbacks.
>
> The canopy of the future will resemble what we have today, but will be
> much bigger, possibly 8 to 12" thick. It will incorporate things like:
>
> 1. Filter system
> - integrated biowheel, and sponge media which would be serviced through a
> hatch in the canopy.
> - backwash capability into overflows (see para. 7. below)
>
> 2. Storage
> - nets, test kits etc
>
> 3. Heater
> - why use precious aquarium real-estate for an unsightly heater
>
> 4. Food storage
> - empty/mix all your dried fish foods, pellets, flakes, freeze-dried etc
> into a compartment which is sealed when the hatch is closed.
> - there is a screw-type feeder with rubber blades (to keep humidity away
> from the food) operated/programmed from a keypad (integrated into the
> canopy)
> - level indicator (proximity switch) provides visual indicator of low
> food levels (ie: by reversing light operation to get your attention)
> - filters would automatically turn off for 10 minutes during feeding
>
> 5. Light System
> - staged lighting, programmed from same keypad
> - dawn/dusk lights, small halogen making a spot light effect, with
> ripples shadowing the substrate, used to transition to/from nightfall and
> daylight main lighting
> - main lights (two CF groups, morning 1/2 on, mid-day all on, and evening
> 1/2 on again)
> - programmed variability (cloudy periods) to reduce algae (currently done
> with timers set to 1 hour off)
> - twilight lighting (typically red or actinic) not programmed, set
> manually, for those bottle of wine by the fire late evenings.
>
> 6. Ventilation & Cooling
> - all that lighting will require that the ballasts are in a separate
> vented area (separate from the air under the canopy)
> - stainless steel tubing (with cooling fins) replaces conventional hoses,
> allowing atmospheric cooling using a small fan triggered by a
> thermocouple.
>
> 7. Water/Atmospheric control
> - pH regulated through CO2 injected inside canopy (or skip to next item)
> - low pH amber/tannic appearance through black-water concentrate pellets,
> or processed/compressed leaf pellets
> - kH regulated through baking soda pellets
> - continuous monitoring of conductivity (TDS control)
> - plumbed directly into home's DWV and cold water supply line (for
> continuous water changes through a drip system)
> - thermocouple (replaces thermometer), to activate dynamic cooling
> (para.6) and reduce lighting to cool as required. (heater's thermocouple
> would be a separate unit in-line with heating elements).
> - backwash cycle which would pulse water in through the gravel, trapping
> mulm in screens located near overflow pipes
>
> 8. Power distribution
> - plug the canopy in and all peripherals connect to canopy's integrated
> GFI protected power bar.
>
> 9. Water Purification option
> - clear plastic bell fits on top of canopy (semi-integrated), housing
> various bog/terrestrial plants whose roots would strip out any remaining
> NO3 from non-planted tanks (silk plants would make a come back, but some
> people will always want real plants).
>
> 10. Live Food option
> - habitat section in canopy for growing small creatures (ie: white worms
> in earth, feeding off decay from mechanical filtration stage, or mysis
> shrimp hatchery etc). Hatchery occupants will randomly 'escape' into
> main tank to be eaten.
>
>
> Did I miss anything? Today, this equipment & electronics exist
> separately, much of it in high volume consumer goods, except for:
> a) the canopy itself (fairly straightforward mould with several options
> and expansion panels to include odd sized aquarium dimensions).
> b) the canopy horizontal filter (plastic moulds) utilizing twin
> (redundancy) generic powerheads
> c) the controller and fairly straightforward programming
> d) integration of all the components
>
> Alone, I could prototype this in about 6 years (it is that easy), so a
> group of people could probably get one into pre-production testing in 12
> months, and into production, 6 months after that.
>
> The question is, would it sell. Would you buy one? Is it complete,
> anything missing?

Sounds good but there is one thing that I would add. This summer, as
some of you might remember, I came home from my holiday to face fish
soup in my Community Tank. Most of my fish had died due to toxic water
when the Fluval 304 failed to work (could have been for up to 2 weeks).
Unfortunately, noone had noticed :-(

Now, what I would like, and am researching implementing when I get the
new tank, is a warning system that would send a text message to my
mobile once certain thresholds are exceeded or drop too low. This would
give so many of us peace of mind....and most certainly would have saved
the lives of my fish while I was on holiday. I need to see what type of
monitoring stuff is out there right now as to how much development work
would need to be done - but I'm pretty sure it is possible to do. This
could look at water flow, mechanical workings of the pump, temperature
control, lighting levels and hopefully some essential diagnostic water
tests. Not only could it warn when things are becoming critical it could
also give trend information - say for example if temperatures fluctuate
greatly over a given time scale, or if the heat distribution is not
even.....all sorts of possibilites - I think this is going to be a fun
project :-)



Gill

[Zathoros]

Lighting alone is pretty expensive. Sounds like it would be very expensive
to make a hood with all these features. I could easily see it costing way
more than the tank it would go on. I know I am always looking for a deal, I
doubt I would buy something that was more expensive than the alternatives.
If you're aiming for the high end crowd, perhaps they use canister filters
etc that generally go below the tank. There appears to be a lot of
complicated stuff on your list, you would need a lot of customer support
that your competitors might not.

I would guess you'd make it for larger aquariums, my guess is the larger you
go the more non uniform the sizes of the aquariums will be. Odd sizes, bow
front, hexagon? I know the gap on the aquaclear 70 filter I bought was too
small to fit over the rim on my 75 gallon aquarium. Will aquarium dimensions
be consistent enough for you to market something that works well enough with
everything to mass produce. There's probably about 20 different sizes of
aquariums at petsmart and most of them have a specific canopy. My guess is
you'd have to sell it as a combo with specific aquariums, or get stores to
do so.

It seems you have two items devoted to food storage and automated feeding. I
would guess most aquarium owners would enjoy feeding the fish themselves.
And have the fish get excited when they come up to the tank. I would also
rather leave my food in the container it came in anyway. Though I suppose I
do not buy food in bulk.

What are the reasons heaters and filters are not integrated today? It seems
like a good idea, do heater elements burn out much more quickly than the
lifespan of your typical filter. Why not make a hob filter with space for a
heater component if that's the obstacle.

I didn't see an air pump on your list.


"NetMax" > wrote in message
...
> I'm going to make a prediction that the next major leap in aquarium design
> will be the canopy. I've watched technologies evolve, filters, filter
> media, heaters, lighting technologies, feeding systems and water parameter
> related equipment. Occasionally some of these technologies have imbedded
> themselves into the canopy. For example, 8 years ago, an Italian aquarium
> manufacturer had an auto-feeder built into a canopy with T6 fluorescent
> lighting. They were a little ahead of their time. Marineland has a line
> of tanks with their filters built into the canopy, and the design has
> persisted, even with many drawbacks.
>
> The canopy of the future will resemble what we have today, but will be
> much bigger, possibly 8 to 12" thick. It will incorporate things like:
>
> 1. Filter system
> - integrated biowheel, and sponge media which would be serviced through a
> hatch in the canopy.
> - backwash capability into overflows (see para. 7. below)
>
> 2. Storage
> - nets, test kits etc
>
> 3. Heater
> - why use precious aquarium real-estate for an unsightly heater
>
> 4. Food storage
> - empty/mix all your dried fish foods, pellets, flakes, freeze-dried etc
> into a compartment which is sealed when the hatch is closed.
> - there is a screw-type feeder with rubber blades (to keep humidity away
> from the food) operated/programmed from a keypad (integrated into the
> canopy)
> - level indicator (proximity switch) provides visual indicator of low food
> levels (ie: by reversing light operation to get your attention)
> - filters would automatically turn off for 10 minutes during feeding
>
> 5. Light System
> - staged lighting, programmed from same keypad
> - dawn/dusk lights, small halogen making a spot light effect, with ripples
> shadowing the substrate, used to transition to/from nightfall and daylight
> main lighting
> - main lights (two CF groups, morning 1/2 on, mid-day all on, and evening
> 1/2 on again)
> - programmed variability (cloudy periods) to reduce algae (currently done
> with timers set to 1 hour off)
> - twilight lighting (typically red or actinic) not programmed, set
> manually, for those bottle of wine by the fire late evenings.
>
> 6. Ventilation & Cooling
> - all that lighting will require that the ballasts are in a separate
> vented area (separate from the air under the canopy)
> - stainless steel tubing (with cooling fins) replaces conventional hoses,
> allowing atmospheric cooling using a small fan triggered by a
> thermocouple.
>
> 7. Water/Atmospheric control
> - pH regulated through CO2 injected inside canopy (or skip to next item)
> - low pH amber/tannic appearance through black-water concentrate pellets,
> or processed/compressed leaf pellets
> - kH regulated through baking soda pellets
> - continuous monitoring of conductivity (TDS control)
> - plumbed directly into home's DWV and cold water supply line (for
> continuous water changes through a drip system)
> - thermocouple (replaces thermometer), to activate dynamic cooling
> (para.6) and reduce lighting to cool as required. (heater's thermocouple
> would be a separate unit in-line with heating elements).
> - backwash cycle which would pulse water in through the gravel, trapping
> mulm in screens located near overflow pipes
>
> 8. Power distribution
> - plug the canopy in and all peripherals connect to canopy's integrated
> GFI protected power bar.
>
> 9. Water Purification option
> - clear plastic bell fits on top of canopy (semi-integrated), housing
> various bog/terrestrial plants whose roots would strip out any remaining
> NO3 from non-planted tanks (silk plants would make a come back, but some
> people will always want real plants).
>
> 10. Live Food option
> - habitat section in canopy for growing small creatures (ie: white worms
> in earth, feeding off decay from mechanical filtration stage, or mysis
> shrimp hatchery etc). Hatchery occupants will randomly 'escape' into main
> tank to be eaten.
>
>
> Did I miss anything? Today, this equipment & electronics exist
> separately, much of it in high volume consumer goods, except for:
> a) the canopy itself (fairly straightforward mould with several options
> and expansion panels to include odd sized aquarium dimensions).
> b) the canopy horizontal filter (plastic moulds) utilizing twin
> (redundancy) generic powerheads
> c) the controller and fairly straightforward programming
> d) integration of all the components
>
> Alone, I could prototype this in about 6 years (it is that easy), so a
> group of people could probably get one into pre-production testing in 12
> months, and into production, 6 months after that.
>
> The question is, would it sell. Would you buy one? Is it complete,
> anything missing?
> --
> www.NetMax.tk
>

[Liz]

I think the temperature stuff would be no problem - electronic controls
are already available specifically for fish tanks and I would think one
of them will plug into your computer for the text messaging part of
things. I'm sure there's also non-fish-specific equipment that will do
this.

I've seen electronic pH meters as well.

For lighting, I'd bet there's something, but the easiest would be to
have something which senses a loss of power.... But then, how's it
gonna send you a message with no power? Perhaps program the UPS
software on your computer to send the text message when the UPS kicks
in (and again when it starts up again) - then you'd know your house
lost power. (This would require an "always on" internet connection -
make sure you've got good firewalls and anti-virus software in place.)

Don't look for stuff made for aquariums - it's not all gonna exist -
it's too expensive - look for stuff made for labs, plants and similar
industrial application - then pretty much everything will exist (for a
price). If you have specific questions, I'd be willing to run a few
past our metrology department (I work in a non-clinical testing lab -
in IT).

IMO, knowing if the power goes out, having redundant filters and
redundant heating would take care of the biggest concerns.

Liz

PS: Will post a separate reply to NetMax's idea later...

[NetMax]

"Larry Blanchard" > wrote in message
...
> On Sat, 12 Nov 2005 00:35:36 -0500, NetMax wrote:
>
>>
>> The question is, would it sell. Would you buy one? Is it complete,
>> anything missing?
>
> Well, some of it, like the changing lighting, sounds nice, but the
> whole
> thing reminds me of computerizing a model railroad - takes all the fun
> out
> of operating it :-).

That's very true. So automate the bad and keep the good, but that
balance differs by everyone's definition of good or bad. I'm perfectly
happy to never clean filters or do the daily feeding, as long as I get to
give the frozen food treats. Gravel vacuuming holds no interest, but I
don't mind cleaning a bit of algae and pruning live plants.

> And with the number of heaters I've had die on me, I'd be really leery
> of
> building one into the canopy unless it was easily replaceable. In
> fact,
> that would apply to most of the components you've imagineered.

I'm also a big fan of redundancy and the use of commonly available
components. I imagine someone could make a fortune selling proprietary
heaters to fit this canopy, but a proper design would be to have 2
cavities where standard submersible heaters were installed. A small LED
indicator on the canopy could be optionally used to indicate operation (I
like very visual indicators), and the heater's current usage (amperage)
could be monitored (through the GFI circuit) so a no-current condition
(heater failure) could be flagged to the user.

thanks for the feedback
--
www.NetMax.tk

[NetMax]

"Graham Ramsay" > wrote in message
...
> "NetMax" wrote
>
> snipped
>
>>
>> The canopy of the future will resemble what we have today, but will be
>> much bigger, possibly 8 to 12" thick. It will incorporate things
>> like:
>>
>
> snipped
>
>> The question is, would it sell. Would you buy one?
>
> I wouldn't buy a foot thick canopy no. If anything I'd like
> canopies to get smaller and less obtrusive.
>
>
> --
> Graham Ramsay
> Secretary
> Fair City Aquarist Society

Understood. It would be a bit of a paradyne shift. There is some
consumer demand to integrate terrestrial and aquatic flora & fauna, in
the push for more realistic slices of nature in our livingroom. Along
these lines, very tall sheets of glass could be used, such that a 48"
tall aquarium would only be filled halfway with water, leaving the upper
24" for small shelves (rock appearance) for bog plants, water elements
(small water fall), flowering aquatic plants (some need a lot of
headspace above the water), and terrestrial critters (some insects,
amphibians, reptiles etc as space allowed).

If this sounds attractive, there are many drawbacks i) the glass
thickness cannot be reduced for the upper portion (manufacturing
constraint) making a very heavy and expensive structure, ii) maintenance
access is horrific (our reach is only about 24" to reach the bottom of
the tank), and the upper terrestrial portion of the tank would tend to
have condensation negatively affecting our view.

The work around is a bit of a hybrid on the idea, by integrating some of
the nicer aspects into a canopy. This allows less expensive materials
for the terrestrial portion, better access (canopy sections open to more
easily reach the bottom of the tank) and the use of plastics which would
promote less condensation obscuring our vision.

The canopy becomes another biotope, and hides all the mechanics to
support both terrestrial and aquatic biotopes. It's just food for
thought :o). Thanks for the feedback.
--
www.NetMax.tk

>
>

[NetMax]

"Gail Futoran" > wrote in message
...
> "NetMax" > wrote in message
> ...
>> I'm going to make a prediction that the next major leap in aquarium
>> design will be the canopy.

snipped for brevity

>> Alone, I could prototype this in about 6 years (it is that easy), so a
>> group of people could probably get one into pre-production testing in
>> 12 months, and into production, 6 months after that.
>>
>> The question is, would it sell. Would you buy one? Is it complete,
>> anything missing?
>> --
>> www.NetMax.tk
>
> I would buy a canopy that included your
> items 1, 3, 5, 6, 8 but the other items either
> I don't need or use, or they would seem to
> make the unit too bulky to be self-contained
> (e.g., the food storage items). I *really* like
> the idea of the heater built into the canopy.
>
> BTW I do have heavily planted tanks but don't
> use CO2 injection and it seems to work just fine.
>
> Perhaps manufacturers will offer a line of
> canopies from basic (my needs) to complex. :)
>
> Gail

The challenge would be in the design of the canopy, such that as few
moulds as possible would be needed to mass produce it cost-effectively.
This makes many features cost-neutral, so you would simply not use them,
but they would be included by default.

I've designed products with complicated option tables, and the options
themselves can become an administrative nuisance with only the designer
really understanding all the nuances ;~), so I think I understand better
now the need for simplicity.

I'm not sure what shape a basic model would take, but you are right that
there would need to be an entry level design (if the strategy was to go
that way). Many products do not have basic entry level designs, and they
simply target a niche where consumers have more experience and money,
than time.

Thanks for the feedback.
--
www.NetMax.tk

[NetMax]

"Liz" > wrote in message
oups.com...
>I think the temperature stuff would be no problem - electronic controls
> are already available specifically for fish tanks and I would think one
> of them will plug into your computer for the text messaging part of
> things. I'm sure there's also non-fish-specific equipment that will do
> this.
>
> I've seen electronic pH meters as well.
>
> For lighting, I'd bet there's something, but the easiest would be to
> have something which senses a loss of power.... But then, how's it
> gonna send you a message with no power? Perhaps program the UPS
> software on your computer to send the text message when the UPS kicks
> in (and again when it starts up again) - then you'd know your house
> lost power. (This would require an "always on" internet connection -
> make sure you've got good firewalls and anti-virus software in place.)
>
> Don't look for stuff made for aquariums - it's not all gonna exist -
> it's too expensive - look for stuff made for labs, plants and similar
> industrial application - then pretty much everything will exist (for a
> price). If you have specific questions, I'd be willing to run a few
> past our metrology department (I work in a non-clinical testing lab -
> in IT).
>
> IMO, knowing if the power goes out, having redundant filters and
> redundant heating would take care of the biggest concerns.
>
> Liz
>
> PS: Will post a separate reply to NetMax's idea later...
>

Typically (system backup design), ac power is used to hold a relay on a
dc circuit in an open state. During a municipal power loss, the relay
coil is de-energized and closes a dc path, which provides 12Vdc from a
marine/motorcycle battery to a dc powerhead (commonly sold as bilge
pumps) which is always in line with your filtration system.
Additionally, 12V airpumps are sold for this purpose as well. This
requires no controller IO access or special programming. It is logic
with pedals ;~).

Communicating the problem to your office phone or cell phone will usually
not be difficult if an auto-dialer is triggered on a landline. The call
is typically routed to a telco phone switch which utilizes banks of 48Vdc
batteries to provide loop current to phones (why some phones work during
a power failure). If there is a repeater in the path, or your office is
also having a power failure, then the reliability of the call is suspect.
Many office PBXs have partial service on their analog lines. ymmv, but
again, no controller IO access or special programming would be needed.

hth
--
www.NetMax.tk

[Liz]

NetMax,

I like your thinking. Here are some random thoughts:

You mention the Eclipse tanks that have everything in the hood (in and
under is more accurate as the filter is just under the hood, not
actually a part of it). I have a 6g of these and I have to say, the
fact that the hood as a unit doesn't have a hinge at the back so that I
can open it up and get at the water (there's a trap door for the filter
which also works well for feeding) is a royal pain! If I want to do a
water change or need to trim a plant or something, I have to get my
husband to come and hold the hood. (There's a power cord coming out of
it, and a clever little cable router, which keeps me from taking the
hood entirely off and putting it elsewhere. Likely I'll pull the hood
power wire out of the cable organizer eventually so I can do things
without my husband holding the hood for me!)

In other words, I think things should be designed such that one person
can do things without needing four hands! And I think it's important
to be able to get the lid off - whether it's for adding/removing a
fish, moving decorations around, or whatever.

I also agree with what's been said about price - you're gonna be
hitting the high-end market - at least initially. A lot of goodies get
left at the store by those who can afford the necessaries, but not the
conveniences. Unless the hood (or system, I don't know that it all has
to be in/under the hood) is modular (as was already suggested) so that
folks could get the part(s) they wanted and not pay for what they don't
want / can't afford, the price is gonna be pretty high.

I recently answered a survey and made comments to a group of college
students who, for an engineering project, were trying to automate
absolutely everything that could be automated around a tank. (I don't
think they're gonna go for my idea of having the system automatically
monitor (accurately, not those visual color indicators) ammonia,
nitrite and nitrate - cuz I think the system would have to include a
GC/LC/MS (or something) for that. <g>)

Here's a link to the thread:
http://www.aquariacentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=60324

(I'm ParadoxLiz over there.)

I like the concept - automate all the work - let machines do it and
when they run into a problem they can't fix, let them call you. But
there are a lot of people who like to get under the hood (home auto
mechanics analogy seems appropriate, or people who build their own
computers from scratch rather than buying it already put together) and
do everything themselves - modular might get them to buy some stuff
anyway. I also wonder if a system like this wouldn't actually turn the
users off toward fishies over time - kinda like having someone else
feed, water, walk, pick up after the dog - what's left after that?
You've got no time and emotion invested in your little fishies, so why
would you care about them - you may as well go down to the Chinese
place and watch their fishies for a while... <g>

Anywho, I think there's a market, I'm not sure how big it is, I'd like
something that does all the tedious stuff for me (but that would have
to include testing the water, which I find the biggest pain (last night
I was on Fisher Scientific's web site pricing multi-channel pipetters
and looking for one that would measure milliliters instead of
microliters... <g>)). I also think there are some concerns, issues,
whatever you call thems that should be carefully considered.

FWIW,

Liz

[Liz]

Any use of the word "program" in my message should be taken as
"configure" - e.g. UPS software generally has a bunch of options like
this - just enter the phone number or the email address or tell it to
launch a program which does the emailing/calling.

Marine batteries as backup power for your aquarium equipment seems
reasonable if it's worth the expense to you.

Liz

[NetMax]

"Zathoros" > wrote in message
news:3updf.2274$Mr4.435@trnddc08...
> Lighting alone is pretty expensive. Sounds like it would be very
> expensive to make a hood with all these features. I could easily see it
> costing way more than the tank it would go on. I know I am always
> looking for a deal, I doubt I would buy something that was more
> expensive than the alternatives. If you're aiming for the high end
> crowd, perhaps they use canister filters etc that generally go below
> the tank. There appears to be a lot of complicated stuff on your list,
> you would need a lot of customer support that your competitors might
> not.

True, I've outlined all the things that I could think of. Someone
smarter than me would need to do the market research and business case.
There is a very small % of the population which does not care what
something costs. Given the population of the planet, this tiny group is
actually quite numerous. I would try to launch into that niche, and once
the non-repeatable engineering and manufacturing costs were absorbed, the
unit cost would drop considerably.

There is an element of fantasy in all this. While I am an entrepreneur
and inventor, I'm already far too involved in other ventures to really
look seriously at this for many years, but having been a hobbyist for
over 30 years, the ideas have been percolating for some time (probably
goes a long way to explain my addiction to this hobby).

> I would guess you'd make it for larger aquariums, my guess is the
> larger you go the more non uniform the sizes of the aquariums will be.
> Odd sizes, bow front, hexagon? I know the gap on the aquaclear 70
> filter I bought was too small to fit over the rim on my 75 gallon
> aquarium. Will aquarium dimensions be consistent enough for you to
> market something that works well enough with everything to mass
> produce. There's probably about 20 different sizes of aquariums at
> petsmart and most of them have a specific canopy. My guess is you'd
> have to sell it as a combo with specific aquariums, or get stores to do
> so.

YES, this has been the MAJOR stumbling block. When I was in the trade, I
was watching the movement of tank dimension standards, and while some
progress was made (ie: elimination of the 16" deep tank), huge
standardization problems have been introduced with the metric and rimless
tanks, and dimensionally: bowfronts, wavefronts, octagon, stretch
octagon, square and pie shaped tanks.

Accordingly, if I was to proceed today, the mould would be modelled on
something like a 48" x 18" footprint with expansion plates to reach the
tank edges (which might be a few cms or sections to close a gap like a
bowfront).

If the design could be accomodated in that footprint, then I would then
incorporate it into a 60" x 18". Not by coincidence, I have 4 tanks here
which satisfy these dimensions, available for proto-typing stuff ;~).

> It seems you have two items devoted to food storage and automated
> feeding. I would guess most aquarium owners would enjoy feeding the
> fish themselves. And have the fish get excited when they come up to the
> tank. I would also rather leave my food in the container it came in
> anyway. Though I suppose I do not buy food in bulk.

Having gained familiarity with automatic water change systems and
auto-feeders, I can say that I've found a lot of satisfaction in knowing
that they do their job without my having to think about it. The fish are
fed when I'm away on business or just working late, and they will still
eat whenever I get home (such as when I'm hand feeding them some frozen
treats). In my opinion, it's the sort of device which quickly integrates
itself into your life, after having used it for a while. Perhaps others
here can offer their experience with using auto-feeders. The biggest
problem which I've found with these units is the penetration of moisture
will adversely affect the operation and nutritional value. If these
points were addressed reliably, there wouldn't be much resistance, even
if you only used it to do the morning feeding when you are work-bound in
traffic.

> What are the reasons heaters and filters are not integrated today? It
> seems like a good idea, do heater elements burn out much more quickly
> than the lifespan of your typical filter. Why not make a hob filter
> with space for a heater component if that's the obstacle.

Eheim has long had integrated heaters in some canister filter models.
I've generally not heard bad things about them, other than being slightly
underpowered in some applications. If the heater uses a thermocouple and
solid state relays (no bimetal point contacts to arc), then the primary
component subject to wear is the heating element, from the thermal
expansion/contraction. It would not be very difficult to modify the ac
signal used to energise these elements so that they would not be subject
to the harsh extreme heat/cool cycle currently used. Electric stoves
already use this technology, by truncating the ac waveform going to the
elements. This makes lots of sense when working with 30A 230Vac into a
major household appliance, but as you can see from a stove's long MTBF,
the same could easily be applied to an aquarium heater. Imagine your
heaters working as long as your house stove (20-30 years?). The
technology has been around for decades.

> I didn't see an air pump on your list.

Nope. An air pump is:
a source of vibration (complicating the canopy design tremendously to
prevent resonant frequencies from occurring)
a source of heat (which would need to be vented, but not allowing noise
to leave)
a source of moving parts (moving parts are much more prone to failure)
a source of exposed electronics (electrical hazard on a device which has
limitations on how well it can be electrically sealed)
a source of exposed metals known to corrode (now in a high humidity
application, recycling humid air through it)
Nope nope nope nope.

I suppose if the consumer demand was there, an air pump could be designed
to meet the requirements. Perhaps something like a Wankel rotary engine
type reciprocating piston made of UHMW parts. Don't get me started on
more designs though ;~).

Thanks for the feedback.
--
www.NetMax.tk

[Gill Passman]

Liz wrote:
> Any use of the word "program" in my message should be taken as
> "configure" - e.g. UPS software generally has a bunch of options like
> this - just enter the phone number or the email address or tell it to
> launch a program which does the emailing/calling.
>
> Marine batteries as backup power for your aquarium equipment seems
> reasonable if it's worth the expense to you.
>
> Liz
>

It's not so much the problem of power failure that I would be looking at
monitoring. I've had two bad experiences with "mechanical" failure - one
with a stuck heater and one with my failed Fluval. If I had the warning
system that I am thinking of in place I could have received an SMS to my
mobile alerting me that the pump was no longer working while I was on
holiday - a quick phone call home to get it restarted and monitored and
I could have saved my fish. With the stuck heater I would have received
an alert that the temperature was rising and again taken remedial action
quickly to prevent fish losses.

The actual monitoring and messaging side of it won't be too much of an
issue as that is the field that my hubby already works in - and as Liz
says the configuring of something like a UPS to send messages is not a
new idea. A lot of large companies spend an absolute fortune in
monitoring their IT systems as part of preventitive maintenance and use
alerts - either text messages, emails, phone calls, beepers etc. - again
it is nothing particulary new (used to work for a software company who
provided just such a product). Obviously there will need to be some
software in it but the main idea is to make it very simple to install
with no need for me (or the tank owner) to be technical (although I am),
or in fact even own a computer. What I need to research is what
monitoring stuff is already out there (either domestic or commercial)
and what sort of stuff it would be useful to know.

None of this would remove the need for preventitive maintenance - filter
cleaning, gravel vacs, water changes etc. but it would let me know of
potential problems before they become a crisis so that I can take
remedial action, hopefully before losing fish.

Gill

[Liz]

OK, got it. I would then go with redundant filters and a flow meter
(something that can detect current) that could be connected to
_something_ (auto-dialer, computer, whatever) to send you a message.

I'm sure we'll all be interested in anything you come up with.

Liz

PS: Hubbies are so useful sometimes, aren't they? <G>

[Gill Passman]

Liz wrote:
> OK, got it. I would then go with redundant filters and a flow meter
> (something that can detect current) that could be connected to
> _something_ (auto-dialer, computer, whatever) to send you a message.
>
> I'm sure we'll all be interested in anything you come up with.
>
> Liz
>
> PS: Hubbies are so useful sometimes, aren't they? <G>
>
Yep...I'll keep you all posted. I'm going to make this part of my tank
upgrade project which will be set up with redundancy - I've got to sell
my car before I'm allowed to order the new tank (it's surplus to
requirements)

Gill

PS and yep they are <g> - he's also great at getting the Fluval's
restarted after maintenance - I end up with blisters and arm ache

[NetMax]

"Gill Passman" > wrote in message
.. .
> Liz wrote:
>> OK, got it. I would then go with redundant filters and a flow meter
>> (something that can detect current) that could be connected to
>> _something_ (auto-dialer, computer, whatever) to send you a message.
>>
>> I'm sure we'll all be interested in anything you come up with.
>>
>> Liz
>>
>> PS: Hubbies are so useful sometimes, aren't they? <G>
>>
> Yep...I'll keep you all posted. I'm going to make this part of my tank
> upgrade project which will be set up with redundancy - I've got to sell
> my car before I'm allowed to order the new tank (it's surplus to
> requirements)
>
> Gill
>
> PS and yep they are <g> - he's also great at getting the Fluval's
> restarted after maintenance - I end up with blisters and arm ache

In regards to the overtemperature monitoring, I would guess that this
would not be too difficult to locate. Ideally, one of the digital
aquarium remote thermometers would have a high limit detector, which you
could IO to a simple automotive type 12V relay open circuiting a
defective heater. This may be more work that it's worth, but the
expression is, once bit twice shy ;~).

In regards to the water flow detector, I prefer to use multiple filters
for a simple low-tech approach to redundancy. If you really wanted a
flow detector, then they do exist. Coincidentally, the post below
appeared in another newsgroup just a few days ago. I will reprint it as
the fellow was looking for feedback.

cut % paste begins:===============


Hi there

My name is Denis Gibbs, and I am a Director of a British Company called
Before the Event Ltd, located at Cheltenham UK

I am a retired Marketing Director of a very large US Company, and I am
also
the inventor of a new water leak detector.
This was originally designed for washing machines etc. UK and US patents
have been issued, and there is enormous interest in the traditional
field.

However something quite interesting has arisen - with particular
applications to aquaria. We are about to bring to the market a device
which
can plug into the water input tube of a fish tank. Just cut the existing
tube and insert. This device - which has no moving parts - can monitor
whether water is present or not in the input tube If the pump fails, or
the
input tube becomes detached from the pump, then an alarm is given.
Special
electronics have been designed so that the battery - which operates the
electronics - only looks at the circuit once per minute, and then only
for
about 50 millisecs. This really does conserve the battery. Although the
present design covers an audible alarm, it would be possible to send an
alarm signal to a mobile phone.
Or do virtually anything with the electronic circuitry.

Additionally we have incorporated an anti-syphon gizmo, which opens the
inlet water pipe to air when then water flow ceases.
No more water all over the carpet.

I'm writing to you really just to get your reaction about the new
product.

Is such a device of interest to aquarium enthusiasts? Particularly in the
US. If so, we can probably make it available in you country.

I look forsward to hearing from you.

Regards

Take Care

Denis Gibbs

cut % paste ends:===============

Maybe you can contact him and offer to test it. Positive results could
then be relayed to the newsgroup.
hth
--
www.NetMax.tk

[NetMax]

"Liz" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> NetMax,
>
> I like your thinking. Here are some random thoughts:

Now there's a scary thought, someone who likes my thinking ;~).

> You mention the Eclipse tanks that have everything in the hood (in and
> under is more accurate as the filter is just under the hood, not
> actually a part of it). I have a 6g of these and I have to say, the
> fact that the hood as a unit doesn't have a hinge at the back so that I
> can open it up and get at the water (there's a trap door for the filter
> which also works well for feeding) is a royal pain! If I want to do a
> water change or need to trim a plant or something, I have to get my
> husband to come and hold the hood. (There's a power cord coming out of
> it, and a clever little cable router, which keeps me from taking the
> hood entirely off and putting it elsewhere. Likely I'll pull the hood
> power wire out of the cable organizer eventually so I can do things
> without my husband holding the hood for me!)

This Italian tank I mentioned had a plastic hinge along the back and the
entire canopy lifted backwards and was held in place with a rod (just
like the hood of a car, when they stopped using springs). I don't know
if I could do the same thing, as there are portions which could not be
angled, but I'm very conscious of obstructions to working on my tank. I
like to build large full length structures for my tanks and even a
crossbrace is a nuisance. I'm currently building a removable stainless
steel crossbrace for my 120g.

> In other words, I think things should be designed such that one person
> can do things without needing four hands! And I think it's important
> to be able to get the lid off - whether it's for adding/removing a
> fish, moving decorations around, or whatever.

Agreed. I'm independant the same way. Something wrong if it takes more
than 2 hands to do it.

> I also agree with what's been said about price - you're gonna be
> hitting the high-end market - at least initially. A lot of goodies get
> left at the store by those who can afford the necessaries, but not the
> conveniences. Unless the hood (or system, I don't know that it all has
> to be in/under the hood) is modular (as was already suggested) so that
> folks could get the part(s) they wanted and not pay for what they don't
> want / can't afford, the price is gonna be pretty high.

I don't have a profit motive right now. If I could cover my costs, I
would be very happy. Of course if the income from other projects dries
up, that will change everything, but I don't see this as generating much
profit, so if I get poor, I'll be doing something else in my retirement
years anyways.

> I recently answered a survey and made comments to a group of college
> students who, for an engineering project, were trying to automate
> absolutely everything that could be automated around a tank. (I don't
> think they're gonna go for my idea of having the system automatically
> monitor (accurately, not those visual color indicators) ammonia,
> nitrite and nitrate - cuz I think the system would have to include a
> GC/LC/MS (or something) for that. <g>)
>
> Here's a link to the thread:
> http://www.aquariacentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=60324
>
> (I'm ParadoxLiz over there.)

I'm NetMax there, at least if I stop lurking ;~). Actually I have to
limit where I post or I will really need a life (probably too late
anyways). It's actually a quite regular occurance, that an engineering
class gets assigned a project like automating some aspect of aquaria
(convenient fixed environment to play with), but the designs are all
rooted in engineering capabilities instead of animal husbandry.

For example, they would find a way to detect NH levels rather than build
a system which would make NH detection superfulous, such as a a thin
layer of water above the lights acting as an algae scrubber. It would be
very difficult to ever have NH in a system which had an order of
magnitude more NH processing power than your bioload could generate.
Root cause analysis would result in a solution to prevent the problem
while the engineers were interfacing the NH detection circuitry to a
sending unit to do something ;~).

> I like the concept - automate all the work - let machines do it and
> when they run into a problem they can't fix, let them call you. But
> there are a lot of people who like to get under the hood (home auto
> mechanics analogy seems appropriate, or people who build their own
> computers from scratch rather than buying it already put together) and
> do everything themselves - modular might get them to buy some stuff
> anyway. I also wonder if a system like this wouldn't actually turn the
> users off toward fishies over time - kinda like having someone else
> feed, water, walk, pick up after the dog - what's left after that?
> You've got no time and emotion invested in your little fishies, so why
> would you care about them - you may as well go down to the Chinese
> place and watch their fishies for a while... <g>

While I would not argue this point, it's the magnitude which is affected,
and the way your efforts get re-directed. I watch my 66g as much as
always, but lights, feeders and much of the maintenance is automated. I
find that my energy gets redirected, admitedly sometimes to non-aquaria,
but also to wanting to learn more about some aspect, or making further
improvements. If I compare this to my other hobby (motorcycles), there
was a feeling that the true nature of the sport was being ruined by
fairings, stereo systems, heated seats and handlegrips, tent trailers,
floorboards, cruise control, volume control, self-adjusting shock
absorbers and electric starters (no more kickstarter). The sport is
still alive, albeit somewhat changed, and consumers have the option as to
what level of convenience and comfort they want to dial in when they make
their purchase.

When I worked in the trade, I'd approach prospective customers who would
be gawking at the tanks, and ask if they needed help. Frequently I was
told, that they would love to have a tank, "but they are too much work".
Aquariums will never be effortless (no matter what we automate), but I
think we have a good way to go before a better balance is achieved.

> Anywho, I think there's a market, I'm not sure how big it is, I'd like
> something that does all the tedious stuff for me (but that would have
> to include testing the water, which I find the biggest pain (last night
> I was on Fisher Scientific's web site pricing multi-channel pipetters
> and looking for one that would measure milliliters instead of
> microliters... <g>)). I also think there are some concerns, issues,
> whatever you call thems that should be carefully considered.

The requirement to test a water parameter is directly related to that
water parameter changing or being expected to change. It's quite
possible to effortlessly manage a home aquarium for many years without
having to do any water tests. Do you have a situation where the water
parameters must be monitored?

> FWIW,
>
> Liz

Thanks for the feedback!
--
www.NetMax.tk

[fish lover]

On Sat, 12 Nov 2005 00:35:36 -0500, "NetMax"
> wrote:

>I'm going to make a prediction that the next major leap in aquarium
>design will be the canopy. I've watched technologies evolve, filters,
>filter media, heaters, lighting technologies, feeding systems and water
>parameter related equipment. Occasionally some of these technologies
>have imbedded themselves into the canopy. For example, 8 years ago, an
>Italian aquarium manufacturer had an auto-feeder built into a canopy with
>T6 fluorescent lighting. They were a little ahead of their time.
>Marineland has a line of tanks with their filters built into the canopy,
>and the design has persisted, even with many drawbacks.
>
>The canopy of the future will resemble what we have today, but will be
>much bigger, possibly 8 to 12" thick. It will incorporate things like:
>
>1. Filter system
>- integrated biowheel, and sponge media which would be serviced through a
>hatch in the canopy.
>- backwash capability into overflows (see para. 7. below)
>
>2. Storage
>- nets, test kits etc
>
>3. Heater
>- why use precious aquarium real-estate for an unsightly heater
>
>4. Food storage
>- empty/mix all your dried fish foods, pellets, flakes, freeze-dried etc
>into a compartment which is sealed when the hatch is closed.
>- there is a screw-type feeder with rubber blades (to keep humidity away
>from the food) operated/programmed from a keypad (integrated into the
>canopy)
>- level indicator (proximity switch) provides visual indicator of low
>food levels (ie: by reversing light operation to get your attention)
>- filters would automatically turn off for 10 minutes during feeding
>
>5. Light System
>- staged lighting, programmed from same keypad
>- dawn/dusk lights, small halogen making a spot light effect, with
>ripples shadowing the substrate, used to transition to/from nightfall and
>daylight main lighting
>- main lights (two CF groups, morning 1/2 on, mid-day all on, and evening
>1/2 on again)
>- programmed variability (cloudy periods) to reduce algae (currently done
>with timers set to 1 hour off)
>- twilight lighting (typically red or actinic) not programmed, set
>manually, for those bottle of wine by the fire late evenings.
>
>6. Ventilation & Cooling
>- all that lighting will require that the ballasts are in a separate
>vented area (separate from the air under the canopy)
>- stainless steel tubing (with cooling fins) replaces conventional hoses,
>allowing atmospheric cooling using a small fan triggered by a
>thermocouple.
>
>7. Water/Atmospheric control
>- pH regulated through CO2 injected inside canopy (or skip to next item)
>- low pH amber/tannic appearance through black-water concentrate pellets,
>or processed/compressed leaf pellets
>- kH regulated through baking soda pellets
>- continuous monitoring of conductivity (TDS control)
>- plumbed directly into home's DWV and cold water supply line (for
>continuous water changes through a drip system)
>- thermocouple (replaces thermometer), to activate dynamic cooling
>(para.6) and reduce lighting to cool as required. (heater's thermocouple
>would be a separate unit in-line with heating elements).
>- backwash cycle which would pulse water in through the gravel, trapping
>mulm in screens located near overflow pipes
>
>8. Power distribution
>- plug the canopy in and all peripherals connect to canopy's integrated
>GFI protected power bar.
>
>9. Water Purification option
>- clear plastic bell fits on top of canopy (semi-integrated), housing
>various bog/terrestrial plants whose roots would strip out any remaining
>NO3 from non-planted tanks (silk plants would make a come back, but some
>people will always want real plants).
>
>10. Live Food option
>- habitat section in canopy for growing small creatures (ie: white worms
>in earth, feeding off decay from mechanical filtration stage, or mysis
>shrimp hatchery etc). Hatchery occupants will randomly 'escape' into
>main tank to be eaten.
>
>
>Did I miss anything? Today, this equipment & electronics exist
>separately, much of it in high volume consumer goods, except for:
>a) the canopy itself (fairly straightforward mould with several options
>and expansion panels to include odd sized aquarium dimensions).
>b) the canopy horizontal filter (plastic moulds) utilizing twin
>(redundancy) generic powerheads
>c) the controller and fairly straightforward programming
>d) integration of all the components
>
>Alone, I could prototype this in about 6 years (it is that easy), so a
>group of people could probably get one into pre-production testing in 12
>months, and into production, 6 months after that.
>
>The question is, would it sell. Would you buy one? Is it complete,
>anything missing?


I think one of the biggest thing about putting filter system in the
conopy is the heat from the lighting system. Also, electricty and
water dose not like each other. There is a chance of short there if
something going wrong. The makers maybe liable in that case. Killing
the fish is one thing, killing the person care for the fish will be a
big liability. Even if you put the cooling system in the canopy that
solve the heating problem, you will have to deal with the addiditonal
noise created by the cooling system.

[Liz]

> Do you have a situation where the water parameters must be monitored?

Yes, I'm a newbie who made the mistake of doing what the people at the
fish store told me, and so I've got to keep an eye on things daily
until the cycle is done (ammonia just hit 0 today! hooray! Nitrite
will follow soon, I'm sure (I added Bio-Spira on Monday, after learning
about it and how to properly apply it)).

But you're right, of course - I'm looking at it backwards, reactively
instead of proactively. It's quite clear that you've got a lot of
experience - to which I gratefully yield.

I'll resist temptations to buy an 8-channel pipetter (shouldn't be hard
at $300+) and continue reading 'til I don't feel the need for one. :-)

Thanks,

Liz

[NetMax]

"Liz" > wrote in message
oups.com...
>> Do you have a situation where the water parameters must be monitored?
>
> Yes, I'm a newbie who made the mistake of doing what the people at the
> fish store told me, and so I've got to keep an eye on things daily
> until the cycle is done (ammonia just hit 0 today! hooray! Nitrite
> will follow soon, I'm sure (I added Bio-Spira on Monday, after learning
> about it and how to properly apply it)).

Congrats on the zero NH3. I've watched many people do jigs for this one.

> But you're right, of course - I'm looking at it backwards, reactively
> instead of proactively. It's quite clear that you've got a lot of
> experience - to which I gratefully yield.
>
> I'll resist temptations to buy an 8-channel pipetter (shouldn't be hard
> at $300+) and continue reading 'til I don't feel the need for one. :-)

Well, I'm very happy if I've influenced you in something which saved you
money. I don't usually have *that* effect on people ;~).

Ammonia & nitrite are the first test kits to collect dust and expire from
lack of use or necessity. Depending on your source water and your
application (fish-load), your testing requirements might be quite
minimal. There are many folks here who are very qualified to advise you,
but I suspect that you'll want to get past your nitrite spike first. The
bad news is that NO2 spikes are longer than NH3, but I've heard very good
things about Bio-Spira. I hope that you can keep us advised on your
progress.
--
www.NetMax.tk


> Thanks,
>
> Liz

[NetMax]

"fish lover" > wrote in message
...
> On Sat, 12 Nov 2005 00:35:36 -0500, "NetMax"
> > wrote:
>
>>I'm going to make a prediction that the next major leap in aquarium
>>design will be the canopy. I've watched technologies evolve, filters,
>>filter media, heaters, lighting technologies, feeding systems and water
>>parameter related equipment. Occasionally some of these technologies
>>have imbedded themselves into the canopy. For example, 8 years ago, an
>>Italian aquarium manufacturer had an auto-feeder built into a canopy
>>with
>>T6 fluorescent lighting. They were a little ahead of their time.
>>Marineland has a line of tanks with their filters built into the
>>canopy,
>>and the design has persisted, even with many drawbacks.
>>
>>The canopy of the future will resemble what we have today, but will be
>>much bigger, possibly 8 to 12" thick. It will incorporate things like:
>>
>>1. Filter system
>>- integrated biowheel, and sponge media which would be serviced through
>>a
>>hatch in the canopy.
>>- backwash capability into overflows (see para. 7. below)
>>
<snip>

>>5. Light System
>>- staged lighting, programmed from same keypad
>>- dawn/dusk lights, small halogen making a spot light effect, with
>>ripples shadowing the substrate, used to transition to/from nightfall
>>and
>>daylight main lighting
>>- main lights (two CF groups, morning 1/2 on, mid-day all on, and
>>evening
>>1/2 on again)
>>- programmed variability (cloudy periods) to reduce algae (currently
>>done
>>with timers set to 1 hour off)
>>- twilight lighting (typically red or actinic) not programmed, set
>>manually, for those bottle of wine by the fire late evenings.
>>
>>6. Ventilation & Cooling
>>- all that lighting will require that the ballasts are in a separate
>>vented area (separate from the air under the canopy)
>>- stainless steel tubing (with cooling fins) replaces conventional
>>hoses,
>>allowing atmospheric cooling using a small fan triggered by a
>>thermocouple.
>>
<snip>
>
>
> I think one of the biggest thing about putting filter system in the
> conopy is the heat from the lighting system. Also, electricty and
> water dose not like each other. There is a chance of short there if
> something going wrong. The makers maybe liable in that case. Killing
> the fish is one thing, killing the person care for the fish will be a
> big liability. Even if you put the cooling system in the canopy that
> solve the heating problem, you will have to deal with the addiditonal
> noise created by the cooling system.

Agreed, conventional fans would not waterproof inexpensively. The canopy
would need to exhaust its heat through a conventional chimney effect,
with low side air intakes and an exhaust at the top rear of the canopy.
Thanks fish lover, that gets rid of another annoying failure-prone
noise-generating moving part.

The filter's pump would be a conventional powerhead, so there is no
hazard there (underwater rated).

The heater could be a conventional submersible heater, or it would be
something similar if I was inclined to drag this through a UL-CSA
underwriter's approval.

For lights, hopefully something like the sealed T8(?) fluorescent lights
which use no barrier between them and the water (one less thing to clean
calcium deposits off of), but in a CF configuration. I think similar
enough applications already exist to be able to use one or modify it
slightly.
--
www.NetMax.tk

[Justice]

NetMax wrote:
> "Liz" > wrote in message
> oups.com...
>
>>I think the temperature stuff would be no problem - electronic controls
>>are already available specifically for fish tanks and I would think one
>>of them will plug into your computer for the text messaging part of
>>things. I'm sure there's also non-fish-specific equipment that will do
>>this.
>>
>>I've seen electronic pH meters as well.
>>
>>For lighting, I'd bet there's something, but the easiest would be to
>>have something which senses a loss of power.... But then, how's it
>>gonna send you a message with no power? Perhaps program the UPS
>>software on your computer to send the text message when the UPS kicks
>>in (and again when it starts up again) - then you'd know your house
>>lost power. (This would require an "always on" internet connection -
>>make sure you've got good firewalls and anti-virus software in place.)
>>
>>Don't look for stuff made for aquariums - it's not all gonna exist -
>>it's too expensive - look for stuff made for labs, plants and similar
>>industrial application - then pretty much everything will exist (for a
>>price). If you have specific questions, I'd be willing to run a few
>>past our metrology department (I work in a non-clinical testing lab -
>>in IT).
>>
>>IMO, knowing if the power goes out, having redundant filters and
>>redundant heating would take care of the biggest concerns.
>>
>>Liz
>>
>>PS: Will post a separate reply to NetMax's idea later...
>>
>
>
> Typically (system backup design), ac power is used to hold a relay on a
> dc circuit in an open state. During a municipal power loss, the relay
> coil is de-energized and closes a dc path, which provides 12Vdc from a
> marine/motorcycle battery to a dc powerhead (commonly sold as bilge
> pumps) which is always in line with your filtration system.
> Additionally, 12V airpumps are sold for this purpose as well. This
> requires no controller IO access or special programming. It is logic
> with pedals ;~).
>
> Communicating the problem to your office phone or cell phone will usually
> not be difficult if an auto-dialer is triggered on a landline. The call
> is typically routed to a telco phone switch which utilizes banks of 48Vdc
> batteries to provide loop current to phones (why some phones work during
> a power failure). If there is a repeater in the path, or your office is
> also having a power failure, then the reliability of the call is suspect.
> Many office PBXs have partial service on their analog lines. ymmv, but
> again, no controller IO access or special programming would be needed.
>
> hth
I am tring to find a way to automate my tanks through a embedded
computer. I will share my reserch to you netmax my idea is to have
temp/waterlevel/fedding automated and other itemes displayed on a small
lcd whole unit will be aprox 1' x 1" x 4" without feeding and other
additives just the box.

[Justice]

NetMax wrote:
> "Gill Passman" > wrote in message
> .. .
>
>>Liz wrote:
>>
>>>OK, got it. I would then go with redundant filters and a flow meter
>>>(something that can detect current) that could be connected to
>>>_something_ (auto-dialer, computer, whatever) to send you a message.
>>>
>>>I'm sure we'll all be interested in anything you come up with.
>>>
>>>Liz
>>>
>>>PS: Hubbies are so useful sometimes, aren't they? <G>
>>>
>>Yep...I'll keep you all posted. I'm going to make this part of my tank
>>upgrade project which will be set up with redundancy - I've got to sell
>>my car before I'm allowed to order the new tank (it's surplus to
>>requirements)
>>
>>Gill
>>
>>PS and yep they are <g> - he's also great at getting the Fluval's
>>restarted after maintenance - I end up with blisters and arm ache
>
>
> In regards to the overtemperature monitoring, I would guess that this
> would not be too difficult to locate. Ideally, one of the digital
> aquarium remote thermometers would have a high limit detector, which you
> could IO to a simple automotive type 12V relay open circuiting a
> defective heater. This may be more work that it's worth, but the
> expression is, once bit twice shy ;~).
>
> In regards to the water flow detector, I prefer to use multiple filters
> for a simple low-tech approach to redundancy. If you really wanted a
> flow detector, then they do exist. Coincidentally, the post below
> appeared in another newsgroup just a few days ago. I will reprint it as
> the fellow was looking for feedback.
>
> cut % paste begins:===============
>
>
> Hi there
>
> My name is Denis Gibbs, and I am a Director of a British Company called
> Before the Event Ltd, located at Cheltenham UK
>
> I am a retired Marketing Director of a very large US Company, and I am
> also
> the inventor of a new water leak detector.
> This was originally designed for washing machines etc. UK and US patents
> have been issued, and there is enormous interest in the traditional
> field.
>
> However something quite interesting has arisen - with particular
> applications to aquaria. We are about to bring to the market a device
> which
> can plug into the water input tube of a fish tank. Just cut the existing
> tube and insert. This device - which has no moving parts - can monitor
> whether water is present or not in the input tube If the pump fails, or
> the
> input tube becomes detached from the pump, then an alarm is given.
> Special
> electronics have been designed so that the battery - which operates the
> electronics - only looks at the circuit once per minute, and then only
> for
> about 50 millisecs. This really does conserve the battery. Although the
> present design covers an audible alarm, it would be possible to send an
> alarm signal to a mobile phone.
> Or do virtually anything with the electronic circuitry.
>
> Additionally we have incorporated an anti-syphon gizmo, which opens the
> inlet water pipe to air when then water flow ceases.
> No more water all over the carpet.
>
> I'm writing to you really just to get your reaction about the new
> product.
>
> Is such a device of interest to aquarium enthusiasts? Particularly in the
> US. If so, we can probably make it available in you country.
>
> I look forsward to hearing from you.
>
> Regards
>
> Take Care
>
> Denis Gibbs
>
> cut % paste ends:===============
>
> Maybe you can contact him and offer to test it. Positive results could
> then be relayed to the newsgroup.
> hth
for overheating you cold interprate a small radiator unit say on sold
for the pc market that would at least be adding cooler water to the
point needed seeing as you already have pumps set up for filration just
plunbing design.

[Justice]

NetMax wrote:
> "Zathoros" > wrote in message
> news:3updf.2274$Mr4.435@trnddc08...
>
>>Lighting alone is pretty expensive. Sounds like it would be very
>>expensive to make a hood with all these features. I could easily see it
>>costing way more than the tank it would go on. I know I am always
>>looking for a deal, I doubt I would buy something that was more
>>expensive than the alternatives. If you're aiming for the high end
>>crowd, perhaps they use canister filters etc that generally go below
>>the tank. There appears to be a lot of complicated stuff on your list,
>>you would need a lot of customer support that your competitors might
>>not.
>
>
> True, I've outlined all the things that I could think of. Someone
> smarter than me would need to do the market research and business case.
> There is a very small % of the population which does not care what
> something costs. Given the population of the planet, this tiny group is
> actually quite numerous. I would try to launch into that niche, and once
> the non-repeatable engineering and manufacturing costs were absorbed, the
> unit cost would drop considerably.
>
> There is an element of fantasy in all this. While I am an entrepreneur
> and inventor, I'm already far too involved in other ventures to really
> look seriously at this for many years, but having been a hobbyist for
> over 30 years, the ideas have been percolating for some time (probably
> goes a long way to explain my addiction to this hobby).
>
>
>>I would guess you'd make it for larger aquariums, my guess is the
>>larger you go the more non uniform the sizes of the aquariums will be.
>>Odd sizes, bow front, hexagon? I know the gap on the aquaclear 70
>>filter I bought was too small to fit over the rim on my 75 gallon
>>aquarium. Will aquarium dimensions be consistent enough for you to
>>market something that works well enough with everything to mass
>>produce. There's probably about 20 different sizes of aquariums at
>>petsmart and most of them have a specific canopy. My guess is you'd
>>have to sell it as a combo with specific aquariums, or get stores to do
>>so.
>
>
> YES, this has been the MAJOR stumbling block. When I was in the trade, I
> was watching the movement of tank dimension standards, and while some
> progress was made (ie: elimination of the 16" deep tank), huge
> standardization problems have been introduced with the metric and rimless
> tanks, and dimensionally: bowfronts, wavefronts, octagon, stretch
> octagon, square and pie shaped tanks.
>
> Accordingly, if I was to proceed today, the mould would be modelled on
> something like a 48" x 18" footprint with expansion plates to reach the
> tank edges (which might be a few cms or sections to close a gap like a
> bowfront).
>
> If the design could be accomodated in that footprint, then I would then
> incorporate it into a 60" x 18". Not by coincidence, I have 4 tanks here
> which satisfy these dimensions, available for proto-typing stuff ;~).
>
>
>>It seems you have two items devoted to food storage and automated
>>feeding. I would guess most aquarium owners would enjoy feeding the
>>fish themselves. And have the fish get excited when they come up to the
>>tank. I would also rather leave my food in the container it came in
>>anyway. Though I suppose I do not buy food in bulk.
>
>
> Having gained familiarity with automatic water change systems and
> auto-feeders, I can say that I've found a lot of satisfaction in knowing
> that they do their job without my having to think about it. The fish are
> fed when I'm away on business or just working late, and they will still
> eat whenever I get home (such as when I'm hand feeding them some frozen
> treats). In my opinion, it's the sort of device which quickly integrates
> itself into your life, after having used it for a while. Perhaps others
> here can offer their experience with using auto-feeders. The biggest
> problem which I've found with these units is the penetration of moisture
> will adversely affect the operation and nutritional value. If these
> points were addressed reliably, there wouldn't be much resistance, even
> if you only used it to do the morning feeding when you are work-bound in
> traffic.
>
>
>>What are the reasons heaters and filters are not integrated today? It
>>seems like a good idea, do heater elements burn out much more quickly
>>than the lifespan of your typical filter. Why not make a hob filter
>>with space for a heater component if that's the obstacle.
>
>
> Eheim has long had integrated heaters in some canister filter models.
> I've generally not heard bad things about them, other than being slightly
> underpowered in some applications. If the heater uses a thermocouple and
> solid state relays (no bimetal point contacts to arc), then the primary
> component subject to wear is the heating element, from the thermal
> expansion/contraction. It would not be very difficult to modify the ac
> signal used to energise these elements so that they would not be subject
> to the harsh extreme heat/cool cycle currently used. Electric stoves
> already use this technology, by truncating the ac waveform going to the
> elements. This makes lots of sense when working with 30A 230Vac into a
> major household appliance, but as you can see from a stove's long MTBF,
> the same could easily be applied to an aquarium heater. Imagine your
> heaters working as long as your house stove (20-30 years?). The
> technology has been around for decades.
>
>
>>I didn't see an air pump on your list.
>
>
> Nope. An air pump is:
> a source of vibration (complicating the canopy design tremendously to
> prevent resonant frequencies from occurring)
> a source of heat (which would need to be vented, but not allowing noise
> to leave)
> a source of moving parts (moving parts are much more prone to failure)
> a source of exposed electronics (electrical hazard on a device which has
> limitations on how well it can be electrically sealed)
> a source of exposed metals known to corrode (now in a high humidity
> application, recycling humid air through it)
> Nope nope nope nope.
>
> I suppose if the consumer demand was there, an air pump could be designed
> to meet the requirements. Perhaps something like a Wankel rotary engine
> type reciprocating piston made of UHMW parts. Don't get me started on
> more designs though ;~).
>
> Thanks for the feedback.
You are doing good business reserch right here and If you were to make a
business out of it i would sugest making a few proto types for difrent
common tank sizes and distribuit it out to diffrent main contributers to
the UG that you frequint ang let them give you your coments then you
cand eather sell it to companies like hegen or eheim or even market it
your self just don't forget to eather patent or copywright all your
notes so you don't get fu$%ed.

[Justice]

NetMax wrote:
> "Liz" > wrote in message
> oups.com...
>
>>NetMax,
>>
>>I like your thinking. Here are some random thoughts:
>
>
> Now there's a scary thought, someone who likes my thinking ;~).
>
>
>>You mention the Eclipse tanks that have everything in the hood (in and
>>under is more accurate as the filter is just under the hood, not
>>actually a part of it). I have a 6g of these and I have to say, the
>>fact that the hood as a unit doesn't have a hinge at the back so that I
>>can open it up and get at the water (there's a trap door for the filter
>>which also works well for feeding) is a royal pain! If I want to do a
>>water change or need to trim a plant or something, I have to get my
>>husband to come and hold the hood. (There's a power cord coming out of
>>it, and a clever little cable router, which keeps me from taking the
>>hood entirely off and putting it elsewhere. Likely I'll pull the hood
>>power wire out of the cable organizer eventually so I can do things
>>without my husband holding the hood for me!)
>
>
> This Italian tank I mentioned had a plastic hinge along the back and the
> entire canopy lifted backwards and was held in place with a rod (just
> like the hood of a car, when they stopped using springs). I don't know
> if I could do the same thing, as there are portions which could not be
> angled, but I'm very conscious of obstructions to working on my tank. I
> like to build large full length structures for my tanks and even a
> crossbrace is a nuisance. I'm currently building a removable stainless
> steel crossbrace for my 120g.
>
>
>>In other words, I think things should be designed such that one person
>>can do things without needing four hands! And I think it's important
>>to be able to get the lid off - whether it's for adding/removing a
>>fish, moving decorations around, or whatever.
>
>
> Agreed. I'm independant the same way. Something wrong if it takes more
> than 2 hands to do it.
>
>
>>I also agree with what's been said about price - you're gonna be
>>hitting the high-end market - at least initially. A lot of goodies get
>>left at the store by those who can afford the necessaries, but not the
>>conveniences. Unless the hood (or system, I don't know that it all has
>>to be in/under the hood) is modular (as was already suggested) so that
>>folks could get the part(s) they wanted and not pay for what they don't
>>want / can't afford, the price is gonna be pretty high.
>
>
> I don't have a profit motive right now. If I could cover my costs, I
> would be very happy. Of course if the income from other projects dries
> up, that will change everything, but I don't see this as generating much
> profit, so if I get poor, I'll be doing something else in my retirement
> years anyways.
>
>
>>I recently answered a survey and made comments to a group of college
>>students who, for an engineering project, were trying to automate
>>absolutely everything that could be automated around a tank. (I don't
>>think they're gonna go for my idea of having the system automatically
>>monitor (accurately, not those visual color indicators) ammonia,
>>nitrite and nitrate - cuz I think the system would have to include a
>>GC/LC/MS (or something) for that. <g>)
>>
>>Here's a link to the thread:
>>http://www.aquariacentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=60324
>>
>>(I'm ParadoxLiz over there.)
>
>
> I'm NetMax there, at least if I stop lurking ;~). Actually I have to
> limit where I post or I will really need a life (probably too late
> anyways). It's actually a quite regular occurance, that an engineering
> class gets assigned a project like automating some aspect of aquaria
> (convenient fixed environment to play with), but the designs are all
> rooted in engineering capabilities instead of animal husbandry.
>
> For example, they would find a way to detect NH levels rather than build
> a system which would make NH detection superfulous, such as a a thin
> layer of water above the lights acting as an algae scrubber. It would be
> very difficult to ever have NH in a system which had an order of
> magnitude more NH processing power than your bioload could generate.
> Root cause analysis would result in a solution to prevent the problem
> while the engineers were interfacing the NH detection circuitry to a
> sending unit to do something ;~).
>
>
>>I like the concept - automate all the work - let machines do it and
>>when they run into a problem they can't fix, let them call you. But
>>there are a lot of people who like to get under the hood (home auto
>>mechanics analogy seems appropriate, or people who build their own
>>computers from scratch rather than buying it already put together) and
>>do everything themselves - modular might get them to buy some stuff
>>anyway. I also wonder if a system like this wouldn't actually turn the
>>users off toward fishies over time - kinda like having someone else
>>feed, water, walk, pick up after the dog - what's left after that?
>>You've got no time and emotion invested in your little fishies, so why
>>would you care about them - you may as well go down to the Chinese
>>place and watch their fishies for a while... <g>
>
>
> While I would not argue this point, it's the magnitude which is affected,
> and the way your efforts get re-directed. I watch my 66g as much as
> always, but lights, feeders and much of the maintenance is automated. I
> find that my energy gets redirected, admitedly sometimes to non-aquaria,
> but also to wanting to learn more about some aspect, or making further
> improvements. If I compare this to my other hobby (motorcycles), there
> was a feeling that the true nature of the sport was being ruined by
> fairings, stereo systems, heated seats and handlegrips, tent trailers,
> floorboards, cruise control, volume control, self-adjusting shock
> absorbers and electric starters (no more kickstarter). The sport is
> still alive, albeit somewhat changed, and consumers have the option as to
> what level of convenience and comfort they want to dial in when they make
> their purchase.
>
> When I worked in the trade, I'd approach prospective customers who would
> be gawking at the tanks, and ask if they needed help. Frequently I was
> told, that they would love to have a tank, "but they are too much work".
> Aquariums will never be effortless (no matter what we automate), but I
> think we have a good way to go before a better balance is achieved.
>
>
>>Anywho, I think there's a market, I'm not sure how big it is, I'd like
>>something that does all the tedious stuff for me (but that would have
>>to include testing the water, which I find the biggest pain (last night
>>I was on Fisher Scientific's web site pricing multi-channel pipetters
>>and looking for one that would measure milliliters instead of
>>microliters... <g>)). I also think there are some concerns, issues,
>>whatever you call thems that should be carefully considered.
>
>
> The requirement to test a water parameter is directly related to that
> water parameter changing or being expected to change. It's quite
> possible to effortlessly manage a home aquarium for many years without
> having to do any water tests. Do you have a situation where the water
> parameters must be monitored?
>
>
>>FWIW,
>>
>>Liz
>
>
> Thanks for the feedback!
I agree I am an expert at nothing but have intrest in many things that
is why my projects are always hobby based and get more responce than
sone college undergrad whow should now what gets no responce but people
whow have degrease respond to me althugh I don't always know what they
are talking about

[NetMax]

"Justice" > wrote in message
news:Cmxdf.106716$y_1.10145@edtnps89...
> NetMax wrote:
>> "Gill Passman" > wrote in message
>> .. .
>>
>>>Liz wrote:
>>>
>>>>OK, got it. I would then go with redundant filters and a flow meter
>>>>(something that can detect current) that could be connected to
>>>>_something_ (auto-dialer, computer, whatever) to send you a message.
>>>>
>>>>I'm sure we'll all be interested in anything you come up with.
>>>>
>>>>Liz
>>>>
>>>>PS: Hubbies are so useful sometimes, aren't they? <G>
>>>>
>>>Yep...I'll keep you all posted. I'm going to make this part of my tank
>>>upgrade project which will be set up with redundancy - I've got to
>>>sell my car before I'm allowed to order the new tank (it's surplus to
>>>requirements)
>>>
>>>Gill
>>>
>>>PS and yep they are <g> - he's also great at getting the Fluval's
>>>restarted after maintenance - I end up with blisters and arm ache
>>
>>
>> In regards to the overtemperature monitoring, I would guess that this
>> would not be too difficult to locate. Ideally, one of the digital
>> aquarium remote thermometers would have a high limit detector, which
>> you could IO to a simple automotive type 12V relay open circuiting a
>> defective heater. This may be more work that it's worth, but the
>> expression is, once bit twice shy ;~).
>>
>> In regards to the water flow detector, I prefer to use multiple
>> filters for a simple low-tech approach to redundancy. If you really
>> wanted a flow detector, then they do exist. Coincidentally, the post
>> below appeared in another newsgroup just a few days ago. I will
>> reprint it as the fellow was looking for feedback.
>>
>> cut % paste begins:===============
>>
>>
>> Hi there
>>
>> My name is Denis Gibbs, and I am a Director of a British Company
>> called
>> Before the Event Ltd, located at Cheltenham UK
>>
>> I am a retired Marketing Director of a very large US Company, and I am
>> also
>> the inventor of a new water leak detector.
>> This was originally designed for washing machines etc. UK and US
>> patents
>> have been issued, and there is enormous interest in the traditional
>> field.
>>
>> However something quite interesting has arisen - with particular
>> applications to aquaria. We are about to bring to the market a device
>> which
>> can plug into the water input tube of a fish tank. Just cut the
>> existing
>> tube and insert. This device - which has no moving parts - can monitor
>> whether water is present or not in the input tube If the pump fails,
>> or the
>> input tube becomes detached from the pump, then an alarm is given.
>> Special
>> electronics have been designed so that the battery - which operates
>> the
>> electronics - only looks at the circuit once per minute, and then only
>> for
>> about 50 millisecs. This really does conserve the battery. Although
>> the
>> present design covers an audible alarm, it would be possible to send
>> an
>> alarm signal to a mobile phone.
>> Or do virtually anything with the electronic circuitry.
>>
>> Additionally we have incorporated an anti-syphon gizmo, which opens
>> the
>> inlet water pipe to air when then water flow ceases.
>> No more water all over the carpet.
>>
>> I'm writing to you really just to get your reaction about the new
>> product.
>>
>> Is such a device of interest to aquarium enthusiasts? Particularly in
>> the
>> US. If so, we can probably make it available in you country.
>>
>> I look forsward to hearing from you.
>>
>> Regards
>>
>> Take Care
>>
>> Denis Gibbs
>>
>> cut % paste ends:===============
>>
>> Maybe you can contact him and offer to test it. Positive results
>> could then be relayed to the newsgroup.
>> hth
> for overheating you cold interprate a small radiator unit say on sold
> for the pc market that would at least be adding cooler water to the
> point needed seeing as you already have pumps set up for filration just
> plunbing design.

Sounds like a good idea. Living in Canada, I haven't been very motivated
to find ways to cool my tanks (Edmonton is probably similar ;~), but this
is a real problem for many folks to the south. It would be possible to
have a stainless steel finned radiator along the back of the tank. I'm
not sure if the convection cooling achieved would be very strong, but
with controlled lighting (switching off when the water is too warm) the
radiator would probably offset the heat added by the powerhead, so the
tank could be made to run at room temperature (that's already progress).

I could add a couple of hose connectors, so that buyers in really warm
climates could add a coil of stainless steel tubing (instead of the
finned radiator), which they would run through their fridge or freezer.
Then the system needs a tiny thermostat valve, but it should work fine.
--
www.NetMax.tk

[fish lover]

On Sat, 12 Nov 2005 20:43:27 -0500, "NetMax"
> wrote:

>"fish lover" > wrote in message
...
>> On Sat, 12 Nov 2005 00:35:36 -0500, "NetMax"
>> > wrote:
>>
>>>I'm going to make a prediction that the next major leap in aquarium
>>>design will be the canopy. I've watched technologies evolve, filters,
>>>filter media, heaters, lighting technologies, feeding systems and water
>>>parameter related equipment. Occasionally some of these technologies
>>>have imbedded themselves into the canopy. For example, 8 years ago, an
>>>Italian aquarium manufacturer had an auto-feeder built into a canopy
>>>with
>>>T6 fluorescent lighting. They were a little ahead of their time.
>>>Marineland has a line of tanks with their filters built into the
>>>canopy,
>>>and the design has persisted, even with many drawbacks.
>>>
>>>The canopy of the future will resemble what we have today, but will be
>>>much bigger, possibly 8 to 12" thick. It will incorporate things like:
>>>
>>>1. Filter system
>>>- integrated biowheel, and sponge media which would be serviced through
>>>a
>>>hatch in the canopy.
>>>- backwash capability into overflows (see para. 7. below)
>>>
><snip>
>
>>>5. Light System
>>>- staged lighting, programmed from same keypad
>>>- dawn/dusk lights, small halogen making a spot light effect, with
>>>ripples shadowing the substrate, used to transition to/from nightfall
>>>and
>>>daylight main lighting
>>>- main lights (two CF groups, morning 1/2 on, mid-day all on, and
>>>evening
>>>1/2 on again)
>>>- programmed variability (cloudy periods) to reduce algae (currently
>>>done
>>>with timers set to 1 hour off)
>>>- twilight lighting (typically red or actinic) not programmed, set
>>>manually, for those bottle of wine by the fire late evenings.
>>>
>>>6. Ventilation & Cooling
>>>- all that lighting will require that the ballasts are in a separate
>>>vented area (separate from the air under the canopy)
>>>- stainless steel tubing (with cooling fins) replaces conventional
>>>hoses,
>>>allowing atmospheric cooling using a small fan triggered by a
>>>thermocouple.
>>>
><snip>
>>
>>
>> I think one of the biggest thing about putting filter system in the
>> conopy is the heat from the lighting system. Also, electricty and
>> water dose not like each other. There is a chance of short there if
>> something going wrong. The makers maybe liable in that case. Killing
>> the fish is one thing, killing the person care for the fish will be a
>> big liability. Even if you put the cooling system in the canopy that
>> solve the heating problem, you will have to deal with the addiditonal
>> noise created by the cooling system.
>
>Agreed, conventional fans would not waterproof inexpensively. The canopy
>would need to exhaust its heat through a conventional chimney effect,
>with low side air intakes and an exhaust at the top rear of the canopy.
>Thanks fish lover, that gets rid of another annoying failure-prone
>noise-generating moving part.
>
>The filter's pump would be a conventional powerhead, so there is no
>hazard there (underwater rated).
>
>The heater could be a conventional submersible heater, or it would be
>something similar if I was inclined to drag this through a UL-CSA
>underwriter's approval.
>
>For lights, hopefully something like the sealed T8(?) fluorescent lights
>which use no barrier between them and the water (one less thing to clean
>calcium deposits off of), but in a CF configuration. I think similar
>enough applications already exist to be able to use one or modify it
>slightly.


Few more things I can think of may help:
1. I would prefer to have the intake/return water pipes built into the
canopy. I hate to cut all kind of holes into my tank cover to fit in
the pipes.
2. As for the filter system, I would like to have something allows
easy change of media without stopping the filter system. That's one of
the things I hate about the cannister filter system. Also, you may
want to leave the filter media exposed to air so a pro ling power
outage will not kill all your good bacterias. I'm worred one of these
days my cannister filter systems will be dead after an hour or so of
power outage.
3. Since you are building the system anyway, you may want to add some
of the monitor devices such as digital temputure display (I just
bought one on ebay for $5 plus S&H). Really neat thing.
4. Your idea of having a small storage area for fish food and things
like that is eally good. I keep my fish food on top of my tank and
they just don't look good. Too much storage may not needed. Just a
small area to keep the dry food and things.
5. One thing you may want to keep in mind is to reduce any possible
sudden noise from all the moving parts of the canopy. Some fish are
sensitive to that. If you open a door to reach soemthing in the canopy
and it ratles, that may not be good for the fish. Adding a soft pad to
some of the doors may be a good idea. Slide doors or open from the
sides maybe better than the doors that open up and down.

Hey, maybe one of these days I can buy one from you!

Good luck.

[Daniel Morrow]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Bottom posted.



- --
You can find my public key at https://keyserver1.pgp.com
"NetMax" > wrote in message
...
> I'm going to make a prediction that the next major leap in aquarium

> design will be the canopy. I've watched technologies evolve,
filters,
> filter media, heaters, lighting technologies, feeding systems and
water
> parameter related equipment. Occasionally some of these
technologies
> have imbedded themselves into the canopy. For example, 8 years
ago, an
> Italian aquarium manufacturer had an auto-feeder built into a
canopy with
> T6 fluorescent lighting. They were a little ahead of their time.
> Marineland has a line of tanks with their filters built into the
canopy,
> and the design has persisted, even with many drawbacks.
>
> The canopy of the future will resemble what we have today, but will
be
> much bigger, possibly 8 to 12" thick. It will incorporate things
like:
>
> 1. Filter system
> - integrated biowheel, and sponge media which would be serviced
through a
> hatch in the canopy.
> - backwash capability into overflows (see para. 7. below)
>
> 2. Storage
> - nets, test kits etc
>
> 3. Heater
> - why use precious aquarium real-estate for an unsightly heater
>
> 4. Food storage
> - empty/mix all your dried fish foods, pellets, flakes,
freeze-dried etc
> into a compartment which is sealed when the hatch is closed.
> - there is a screw-type feeder with rubber blades (to keep humidity
away
> from the food) operated/programmed from a keypad (integrated into
the
> canopy)
> - level indicator (proximity switch) provides visual indicator of
low
> food levels (ie: by reversing light operation to get your
attention)
> - filters would automatically turn off for 10 minutes during
feeding
>
> 5. Light System
> - staged lighting, programmed from same keypad
> - dawn/dusk lights, small halogen making a spot light effect, with

> ripples shadowing the substrate, used to transition to/from
nightfall and
> daylight main lighting
> - main lights (two CF groups, morning 1/2 on, mid-day all on, and
evening
> 1/2 on again)
> - programmed variability (cloudy periods) to reduce algae
(currently done
> with timers set to 1 hour off)
> - twilight lighting (typically red or actinic) not programmed, set

> manually, for those bottle of wine by the fire late evenings.
>
> 6. Ventilation & Cooling
> - all that lighting will require that the ballasts are in a
separate
> vented area (separate from the air under the canopy)
> - stainless steel tubing (with cooling fins) replaces conventional
hoses,
> allowing atmospheric cooling using a small fan triggered by a
> thermocouple.
>
> 7. Water/Atmospheric control
> - pH regulated through CO2 injected inside canopy (or skip to next
item)
> - low pH amber/tannic appearance through black-water concentrate
pellets,
> or processed/compressed leaf pellets
> - kH regulated through baking soda pellets
> - continuous monitoring of conductivity (TDS control)
> - plumbed directly into home's DWV and cold water supply line (for

> continuous water changes through a drip system)
> - thermocouple (replaces thermometer), to activate dynamic cooling

> (para.6) and reduce lighting to cool as required. (heater's
thermocouple
> would be a separate unit in-line with heating elements).
> - backwash cycle which would pulse water in through the gravel,
trapping
> mulm in screens located near overflow pipes
>
> 8. Power distribution
> - plug the canopy in and all peripherals connect to canopy's
integrated
> GFI protected power bar.
>
> 9. Water Purification option
> - clear plastic bell fits on top of canopy (semi-integrated),
housing
> various bog/terrestrial plants whose roots would strip out any
remaining
> NO3 from non-planted tanks (silk plants would make a come back, but
some
> people will always want real plants).
>
> 10. Live Food option
> - habitat section in canopy for growing small creatures (ie: white
worms
> in earth, feeding off decay from mechanical filtration stage, or
mysis
> shrimp hatchery etc). Hatchery occupants will randomly 'escape'
into
> main tank to be eaten.
>
>
> Did I miss anything? Today, this equipment & electronics exist
> separately, much of it in high volume consumer goods, except for:
> a) the canopy itself (fairly straightforward mould with several
options
> and expansion panels to include odd sized aquarium dimensions).
> b) the canopy horizontal filter (plastic moulds) utilizing twin
> (redundancy) generic powerheads
> c) the controller and fairly straightforward programming
> d) integration of all the components
>
> Alone, I could prototype this in about 6 years (it is that easy),
so a
> group of people could probably get one into pre-production testing
in 12
> months, and into production, 6 months after that.
>
> The question is, would it sell. Would you buy one? Is it
complete,
> anything missing?
> --
> www.NetMax.tk
>
>

I would definitely buy one when starting a new tank and if the price
was relatively reasonable (reasonable can extent to quite high for me
- - maybe $200-$400 usa dollars for a 120 gallon tank or larger). My 3
tanks are established so I wouldn't need to buy the whole shabang in
the case of a breakdown as likely only one component would need to be
replaced. Your idea would look awesome too compared to people having
cables, cords, tubes and pipes spewed out all over the place. You go
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[NetMax]

"Daniel Morrow" > wrote in message
...
> "NetMax" > wrote in message
> ...
<snip>

> I would definitely buy one when starting a new tank and if the price
> was relatively reasonable (reasonable can extent to quite high for me
> - - maybe $200-$400 usa dollars for a 120 gallon tank or larger). My 3
> tanks are established so I wouldn't need to buy the whole shabang in
> the case of a breakdown as likely only one component would need to be
> replaced. Your idea would look awesome too compared to people having
> cables, cords, tubes and pipes spewed out all over the place. You go

Thanks! When I sold aquarium set-ups, I'd often get customers who
inherited a tank (just the glass), and they wanted to buy everything
else. I explained that there were 4 cost drivers, and the order (from
most expensive to least expensive, over the 1st year) was usually:

1. equipment (canopy, lights, filters etc)
2. decorations, plants, fish, and their maintenance (foods, water
treatment etc).
3. stand
4. tank (!)

Economically, you're usually much better off with existing equipment,
stands and fish, and just buying a tank, than doing the reverse, but
emotionally, people rarely buy a tank to put under that spare heater ;~),
so tanks drive the industry. I'd have to design the canopy for existing
tanks, for hobbyists who were being successful and wanted to take it to
another level.
--
www.NetMax.tk

[NetMax]

"coolchinchilla" > wrote in message
...
> NetMax wrote:
>> I'm going to make a prediction that the next major leap in aquarium
>> design will be the canopy.
>
> Such a design would be great, but probably out of my price range. One
> thought for this, consider the needs of sal****er folks because they're
> probably the ones with the funds to spend on such a canopy. For
> example, they need Metal Halides (sp) (superbright lights) if they keep
> a reef.
>
> Good luck!
> coolchinchilla

Good idea. I'll need to seek advice when I get to that stage then, as my
experience with sal****er is too limited.
--
www.NetMax.tk

[coolchinchilla]

NetMax wrote:
> I'm going to make a prediction that the next major leap in aquarium
> design will be the canopy.

Such a design would be great, but probably out of my price range.
One thought for this, consider the needs of sal****er folks because
they're probably the ones with the funds to spend on such a canopy.
For example, they need Metal Halides (sp) (superbright lights) if
they keep a reef.

Good luck!
coolchinchilla

[Justice]

NetMax wrote:
> "Justice" > wrote in message
> news:Cmxdf.106716$y_1.10145@edtnps89...
>
>>NetMax wrote:
>>
>>>"Gill Passman" > wrote in message
.. .
>>>
>>>
>>>>Liz wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>OK, got it. I would then go with redundant filters and a flow meter
>>>>>(something that can detect current) that could be connected to
>>>>>_something_ (auto-dialer, computer, whatever) to send you a message.
>>>>>
>>>>>I'm sure we'll all be interested in anything you come up with.
>>>>>
>>>>>Liz
>>>>>
>>>>>PS: Hubbies are so useful sometimes, aren't they? <G>
>>>>>
>>>>Yep...I'll keep you all posted. I'm going to make this part of my tank
>>>>upgrade project which will be set up with redundancy - I've got to
>>>>sell my car before I'm allowed to order the new tank (it's surplus to
>>>>requirements)
>>>>
>>>>Gill
>>>>
>>>>PS and yep they are <g> - he's also great at getting the Fluval's
>>>>restarted after maintenance - I end up with blisters and arm ache
>>>
>>>
>>>In regards to the overtemperature monitoring, I would guess that this
>>>would not be too difficult to locate. Ideally, one of the digital
>>>aquarium remote thermometers would have a high limit detector, which
>>>you could IO to a simple automotive type 12V relay open circuiting a
>>>defective heater. This may be more work that it's worth, but the
>>>expression is, once bit twice shy ;~).
>>>
>>>In regards to the water flow detector, I prefer to use multiple
>>>filters for a simple low-tech approach to redundancy. If you really
>>>wanted a flow detector, then they do exist. Coincidentally, the post
>>>below appeared in another newsgroup just a few days ago. I will
>>>reprint it as the fellow was looking for feedback.
>>>
>>>cut % paste begins:===============
>>>
>>>
>>>Hi there
>>>
>>>My name is Denis Gibbs, and I am a Director of a British Company
>>>called
>>>Before the Event Ltd, located at Cheltenham UK
>>>
>>>I am a retired Marketing Director of a very large US Company, and I am
>>>also
>>>the inventor of a new water leak detector.
>>>This was originally designed for washing machines etc. UK and US
>>>patents
>>>have been issued, and there is enormous interest in the traditional
>>>field.
>>>
>>>However something quite interesting has arisen - with particular
>>>applications to aquaria. We are about to bring to the market a device
>>>which
>>>can plug into the water input tube of a fish tank. Just cut the
>>>existing
>>>tube and insert. This device - which has no moving parts - can monitor
>>>whether water is present or not in the input tube If the pump fails,
>>>or the
>>>input tube becomes detached from the pump, then an alarm is given.
>>>Special
>>>electronics have been designed so that the battery - which operates
>>>the
>>>electronics - only looks at the circuit once per minute, and then only
>>>for
>>>about 50 millisecs. This really does conserve the battery. Although
>>>the
>>>present design covers an audible alarm, it would be possible to send
>>>an
>>>alarm signal to a mobile phone.
>>>Or do virtually anything with the electronic circuitry.
>>>
>>>Additionally we have incorporated an anti-syphon gizmo, which opens
>>>the
>>>inlet water pipe to air when then water flow ceases.
>>>No more water all over the carpet.
>>>
>>>I'm writing to you really just to get your reaction about the new
>>>product.
>>>
>>>Is such a device of interest to aquarium enthusiasts? Particularly in
>>>the
>>>US. If so, we can probably make it available in you country.
>>>
>>>I look forsward to hearing from you.
>>>
>>>Regards
>>>
>>>Take Care
>>>
>>>Denis Gibbs
>>>
>>>cut % paste ends:===============
>>>
>>>Maybe you can contact him and offer to test it. Positive results
>>>could then be relayed to the newsgroup.
>>>hth
>>
>>for overheating you cold interprate a small radiator unit say on sold
>>for the pc market that would at least be adding cooler water to the
>>point needed seeing as you already have pumps set up for filration just
>>plunbing design.
>
>
> Sounds like a good idea. Living in Canada, I haven't been very motivated
> to find ways to cool my tanks (Edmonton is probably similar ;~)

i wish it is much colder here -30 not uncommon but less humed -20 here
frome my experience -10 there

, but this
> is a real problem for many folks to the south. It would be possible to
> have a stainless steel finned radiator along the back of the tank. I'm
> not sure if the convection cooling achieved would be very strong, but
> with controlled lighting (switching off when the water is too warm) the
> radiator would probably offset the heat added by the powerhead, so the
> tank could be made to run at room temperature (that's already progress).
>
> I could add a couple of hose connectors, so that buyers in really warm
> climates could add a coil of stainless steel tubing (instead of the
> finned radiator), which they would run through their fridge or freezer.
> Then the system needs a tiny thermostat valve, but it should work fine.

[NetMax]

"fish lover" > wrote in message
...
> On Sat, 12 Nov 2005 20:43:27 -0500, "NetMax"
> > wrote:
>
>>"fish lover" > wrote in message
...
>>> On Sat, 12 Nov 2005 00:35:36 -0500, "NetMax"
>>> > wrote:
<snip>
>
> Few more things I can think of may help:
> 1. I would prefer to have the intake/return water pipes built into the
> canopy. I hate to cut all kind of holes into my tank cover to fit in
> the pipes.

Agreed. as the filter and pump is integrated into the canopy, there
should be no cut-outs or visible plumbing to see.

> 2. As for the filter system, I would like to have something allows
> easy change of media without stopping the filter system. That's one of
> the things I hate about the cannister filter system. Also, you may
> want to leave the filter media exposed to air so a pro ling power
> outage will not kill all your good bacterias. I'm worred one of these
> days my cannister filter systems will be dead after an hour or so of
> power outage.

I don't understand why they don't build canister filters out of clear
plastic. They have been doing this for years with many HOBs. I like and
dislike the filter media on the Eclipse. It's great that you see it and
can change it without turning the pump off (or am I thinking of the Hagen
mini-tanks?), but gravity-fed water doesn't utilize filter media as
efficiently as force-fed. In itself, this can be a good thing, as the
detritus does not penetrate as deeply into the media, so it is less
likely to become clogged beyond repair, but it requires a significantly
greater surface area with different grades of filtering material (can't
have everything clog the surface of the first filter encountered). The
approach may be to filter the particulates down through several stages of
different densities of washable foam media, starting with a coarse open
cell and ending with a fine closed cell sponge. Engineering a good
design would be time consuming, (and take a lot of space) but the result
could be an extremely robust and user friendly system. Most of the
under-surface of the canopy's top could be dedicated to filtration mats,
easily accessible from above and exposed to air (some minimal ventialtion
with louvers opposite from the vents for the lighting ballasts). I would
be curious to see what powerpacks are economically available by the time
I do this. It might not be unreasonably to include a tiny dc powerhead
running off of a 12V lantern battery (perhaps making this powerhead the
only pump, and the battery on a continuous recharge circuit from the ac
mains?).

> 3. Since you are building the system anyway, you may want to add some
> of the monitor devices such as digital temputure display (I just
> bought one on ebay for $5 plus S&H). Really neat thing.

Definitely. This is a technology which will be less expensive and more
accurate than anything else soon. My inclination would be to have a
small readout, but a wide flat multi-colour LED which would remain green
for a set temperature range, turning yellow for anything slightly outside
that range, and red for anything else. Realistically, this is what we
need. In the trade, I rarely read thermometers (it would take too long
with over a hundred tanks). I would simply touch the glass as I walked
by for an approximate range.

> 4. Your idea of having a small storage area for fish food and things
> like that is eally good. I keep my fish food on top of my tank and
> they just don't look good. Too much storage may not needed. Just a
> small area to keep the dry food and things.

This is something that has so far gotten mixed reviews. My concern is
that heat and humidity are the worst enemies of fish food, breaking down
the vitamins and promoting mold. If the food is not exposed, then I
would need to ensure the storage area did not get too warm. I might not
specifically design a storage area, but I would keep one in mind as there
is usually odd shaped cavities which could be utilized for storage with
little or no design compromises.

> 5. One thing you may want to keep in mind is to reduce any possible
> sudden noise from all the moving parts of the canopy. Some fish are
> sensitive to that. If you open a door to reach soemthing in the canopy
> and it ratles, that may not be good for the fish. Adding a soft pad to
> some of the doors may be a good idea. Slide doors or open from the
> sides maybe better than the doors that open up and down.

You might be surprised to learn what an engineering challenge that can
actually be, with the tolerances of mass production. The $$$ that car
manufacturers put into finding the precise material, shape, reinforcing,
and sound that moving parts make is almost unbelievable, and this is not
just car doors, but down to the way the cup holder progressively pops up
and out like it was motorized.

Rather than increasing the costs by running high tolerances and many
little parts, I'd try to take a more holistic approach with the design,
keeping it simply, relatively easy to assemble, less little plastic
do-dads to break, and use strips of urethane pads on two-sided tape (or
wedged into a groove) just as you have suggested. It should feel as
solid and professional as it looks, and works.

thanks for the feedback!
--
www.NetMax.tk

> Hey, maybe one of these days I can buy one from you!
>
> Good luck.

[NetMax]

"Kevin Livingston" > wrote in message
...
> Shortened for ease of reading:
>
> "NetMax" > wrote in message
> ...
>> The canopy of the future will resemble what we have today, but will be
>> much bigger, possibly 8 to 12" thick. It will incorporate things
>> like:
>>
>> 1. Filter system
>> - integrated biowheel, and sponge media which would be serviced
>> through a hatch in the canopy.
>> - backwash capability into overflows (see para. 7. below)
>
> I agree but I would say that the hobbyist should be able to add modules
> as she/he sees fit. I would also say that an optional UV sterilizer
> module could be added to the final stage.

UV module, check :o)

>>
>> 2. Storage
>> - nets, test kits etc
>
> That could be easily part of the stand.

True, but I'm not a carpenter and didn't want to get involved in stands.

>> 3. Heater
>> - why use precious aquarium real-estate for an unsightly heater
>
> I would also add an optional chiller module too.

Check, discussed in another post.

>> 4. Food storage
>> - empty/mix all your dried fish foods, pellets, flakes, freeze-dried
>> etc into a compartment which is sealed when the hatch is closed.
>> - there is a screw-type feeder with rubber blades (to keep humidity
>> away from the food) operated/programmed from a keypad (integrated into
>> the canopy)
>> - level indicator (proximity switch) provides visual indicator of low
>> food levels (ie: by reversing light operation to get your attention)
>> - filters would automatically turn off for 10 minutes during feeding
>
> I don't think I could buy into that. Another poster metioned the joys
> of having one's fish great you as you feed them. It's kind of like when
> Duncan Heinz cake mixes first came out. Everything was included in the
> mix so that the busy mom/wife could "just add water" and be done but so
> many women at that time camplained that they felt that they weren't
> trully baking if eggs and other "liquid" ingredients were powdered and
> that they could add them themselves. So Duncan Heinz (and others)
> changed the formula to allow for the "baker" to add "liquid"
> ingredients his/herself. Why the history lesson? To illistrate what you
> might run into with "too much automation".

I think the missing operative is too much automation *too fast*. Duncan
would probably find less resistance to the all included recipe now, but I
think a key element (not to critique your example), is that 'perception
is reality', and dried butter and eggs were perceived to lack the quality
of the real thing.

I will however take the resistance to too much automation to heart.

>> 5. Light System
>> - staged lighting, programmed from same keypad
>> - dawn/dusk lights, small halogen making a spot light effect, with
>> ripples shadowing the substrate, used to transition to/from nightfall
>> and daylight main lighting
>> - main lights (two CF groups, morning 1/2 on, mid-day all on, and
>> evening 1/2 on again)
>> - programmed variability (cloudy periods) to reduce algae (currently
>> done with timers set to 1 hour off)
>> - twilight lighting (typically red or actinic) not programmed, set
>> manually, for those bottle of wine by the fire late evenings.
>
> Let's not forget "moon light" LEDs to make nocturnal effects. Maybe
> even adding "phases" would be good.

:o) relatively inexpensive (LED lighting). I wonder if advances in LED
technology will even allow for their use as the only light source,
variable in intensity and frequency (different colours) right down into
the infra-red. I wasn't planning on designing this hood anytime soon, so
we shall see.

>> 6. Ventilation & Cooling
>> - all that lighting will require that the ballasts are in a separate
>> vented area (separate from the air under the canopy)
>> - stainless steel tubing (with cooling fins) replaces conventional
>> hoses, allowing atmospheric cooling using a small fan triggered by a
>> thermocouple.
>
> No arguments here.
>
>> 7. Water/Atmospheric control
>> - pH regulated through CO2 injected inside canopy (or skip to next
>> item)
>> - low pH amber/tannic appearance through black-water concentrate
>> pellets, or processed/compressed leaf pellets
>> - kH regulated through baking soda pellets
>> - continuous monitoring of conductivity (TDS control)
>> - plumbed directly into home's DWV and cold water supply line (for
>> continuous water changes through a drip system)
>> - thermocouple (replaces thermometer), to activate dynamic cooling
>> (para.6) and reduce lighting to cool as required. (heater's
>> thermocouple would be a separate unit in-line with heating elements).
>> - backwash cycle which would pulse water in through the gravel,
>> trapping mulm in screens located near overflow pipes
>
> Again no arguments.
>
>> 8. Power distribution
>> - plug the canopy in and all peripherals connect to canopy's
>> integrated GFI protected power bar.
>>
>> 9. Water Purification option
>> - clear plastic bell fits on top of canopy (semi-integrated), housing
>> various bog/terrestrial plants whose roots would strip out any
>> remaining NO3 from non-planted tanks (silk plants would make a come
>> back, but some people will always want real plants).
>
> Can't give much thought on thst one.
>
>> 10. Live Food option
>> - habitat section in canopy for growing small creatures (ie: white
>> worms in earth, feeding off decay from mechanical filtration stage, or
>> mysis shrimp hatchery etc). Hatchery occupants will randomly 'escape'
>> into main tank to be eaten.
>
> Too much complication IMHO

re: complication, yes, but my motivation is a pet peeve close to my
heart. As important as a HOB filter is, what aquariums *really* need is
an HOB hatchery which would randomly release creatures into the water to
be eaten by the fish. The problem is that my fish are bored. Their
tank-mates have been selected with some scientific rigour. Their
environment was researched, and they are generally in the biggest
aquarium that I can afford them. They are happy, healthy and bored.

Along with boredom, their food supply is a little too artificial, double
feedings of dry processed foods with the occasional frozen treat when
their caretaker remembers to do it. Their digestive system would be a
lot happier with a more irregular diet scattered throughout the day, plus
the thrill of finding a live creature swimming around, and then the
chase, the catch, the satisfaction of beating your tank-mates, the
swallow... and then if fish could smile :o).

From Oscars to Neon tetras, fish like to spend most of their time in the
pursuit of a meal. This is what they were hard-wired in nature to do.
Eat, sleep, spawn, roam and avoid being eaten. In the confined
controlled space of an aquarium, they eat (boring), sleep (boring), spawn
(ok, though their choices of mates are always very limited), roam (to the
end of the tank and back), and stay alive (usually no predators are in
with them). Boring.

So while the design of a hatchery would certainly be a complication, I
would like to include it for the sake of their mental health ;~).

>> Did I miss anything? Today, this equipment & electronics exist
>> separately, much of it in high volume consumer goods, except for:
>> a) the canopy itself (fairly straightforward mould with several
>> options and expansion panels to include odd sized aquarium
>> dimensions).
>> b) the canopy horizontal filter (plastic moulds) utilizing twin
>> (redundancy) generic powerheads
>> c) the controller and fairly straightforward programming
>> d) integration of all the components
>
> I would add that it should be easy on the hobbyist and that optional
> modules can be added or removed depending on the hobbyists desires.

A recurring theme I've been hearing. This will be an interesting design.

>> Alone, I could prototype this in about 6 years (it is that easy), so a
>> group of people could probably get one into pre-production testing in
>> 12 months, and into production, 6 months after that.
>>
>> The question is, would it sell. Would you buy one? Is it complete,
>> anything missing?
>> --
>> www.NetMax.tk
>>
> Anyway these are jusy MY opinions

.....and I thank you for taking the time to write them :o).

Statistically, every single opinion expressed represents a large number
of similar opinions which were not expressed, so you're actually speaking
on behalf of *many* people.

cheers
--
www.NetMax.tk

[NetMax]

"Kevin Livingston" > wrote in message
...
>
> "NetMax" > wrote in message
> ...
>> "Kevin Livingston" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>> Shortened for ease of reading:
>>>
>>> "NetMax" > wrote in message
>>> ...
<snip>

>>> Too much complication IMHO
>>
>> re: complication, yes, but my motivation is a pet peeve close to my
>> heart. As important as a HOB filter is, what aquariums *really* need
>> is an HOB hatchery which would randomly release creatures into the
>> water to be eaten by the fish. The problem is that my fish are bored.
>> Their tank-mates have been selected with some scientific rigour.
>> Their environment was researched, and they are generally in the
>> biggest aquarium that I can afford them. They are happy, healthy and
>> bored.
>>
>> Along with boredom, their food supply is a little too artificial,
>> double feedings of dry processed foods with the occasional frozen
>> treat when their caretaker remembers to do it. Their digestive system
>> would be a lot happier with a more irregular diet scattered throughout
>> the day, plus the thrill of finding a live creature swimming around,
>> and then the chase, the catch, the satisfaction of beating your
>> tank-mates, the swallow... and then if fish could smile :o).
>>
>> From Oscars to Neon tetras, fish like to spend most of their time in
>> the pursuit of a meal. This is what they were hard-wired in nature to
>> do. Eat, sleep, spawn, roam and avoid being eaten. In the confined
>> controlled space of an aquarium, they eat (boring), sleep (boring),
>> spawn (ok, though their choices of mates are always very limited),
>> roam (to the end of the tank and back), and stay alive (usually no
>> predators are in with them). Boring.
>>
>> So while the design of a hatchery would certainly be a complication, I
>> would like to include it for the sake of their mental health ;~).
>>
>
> HOB hatchery? I wonder how that would work?

I let you know as soon as I invent it ;~) (or someone else beats me to
it). Basically you would sprinkle in some eggs (perhaps mysis shrimp, or
some nemotodia) into a box hanging on the back of the tank, and they
would hatch, and begin reproducing. You would need to feed them, or if
they had access to the organic matter in the filters, that might work, or
else some plants, or regular feedings with flake food. The hatchery
would be connected to the tank through a grill large enough for them to
get into the tank, small enough to keep your fish out. Ideally this
grill is located near your filter return, so you would have a vortex
action slowly & continuously drawing a bit of water out.

I'm thinking/working on a larger scale unit to test some ideas. Probably
start with Mollies in an algae scrubber tank plumbed into my main tank,
to see how much of a continuous food chain I can get going. Fish poop,
poop dissolves and feeds floating plants and algae in high light area,
Mollies eat algae and drop fry, fry feed fish, fish poop.

Once operational, I'll look into scaling it downwards towards a
sea-monkey type set-up, continuously dropping live 'something' into the
tank. Depending on the fish, this could be done in a variety of ways.
Imagine an ant colony with openings under the water (lots of fish like to
eat ants). The trick is to find a critter whose escape would not cause
us trouble, and that it could establish a sustainable colony.

Some hobbyists have come close with a nemotodia colony growing in their
HOB filter (looks like tubifex worms), but that was scaled wrong to be
enough benefit for the fish.
--
www.NetMax.tk

[Kevin Livingston]

Shortened for ease of reading:

"NetMax" > wrote in message
...
> The canopy of the future will resemble what we have today, but will be
> much bigger, possibly 8 to 12" thick. It will incorporate things like:
>
> 1. Filter system
> - integrated biowheel, and sponge media which would be serviced through a
> hatch in the canopy.
> - backwash capability into overflows (see para. 7. below)

I agree but I would say that the hobbyist should be able to add modules as
she/he sees fit. I would also say that an optional UV sterilizer module
could be added to the final stage.

>
> 2. Storage
> - nets, test kits etc

That could be easily part of the stand.

> 3. Heater
> - why use precious aquarium real-estate for an unsightly heater

I would also add an optional chiller module too.

> 4. Food storage
> - empty/mix all your dried fish foods, pellets, flakes, freeze-dried etc
> into a compartment which is sealed when the hatch is closed.
> - there is a screw-type feeder with rubber blades (to keep humidity away
> from the food) operated/programmed from a keypad (integrated into the
> canopy)
> - level indicator (proximity switch) provides visual indicator of low food
> levels (ie: by reversing light operation to get your attention)
> - filters would automatically turn off for 10 minutes during feeding

I don't think I could buy into that. Another poster metioned the joys of
having one's fish great you as you feed them. It's kind of like when Duncan
Heinz cake mixes first came out. Everything was included in the mix so that
the busy mom/wife could "just add water" and be done but so many women at
that time camplained that they felt that they weren't trully baking if eggs
and other "liquid" ingredients were powdered and that they could add them
themselves. So Duncan Heinz (and others) changed the formula to allow for
the "baker" to add "liquid" ingredients his/herself. Why the history lesson?
To illistrate what you might run into with "too much automation".

> 5. Light System
> - staged lighting, programmed from same keypad
> - dawn/dusk lights, small halogen making a spot light effect, with ripples
> shadowing the substrate, used to transition to/from nightfall and daylight
> main lighting
> - main lights (two CF groups, morning 1/2 on, mid-day all on, and evening
> 1/2 on again)
> - programmed variability (cloudy periods) to reduce algae (currently done
> with timers set to 1 hour off)
> - twilight lighting (typically red or actinic) not programmed, set
> manually, for those bottle of wine by the fire late evenings.

Let's not forget "moon light" LEDs to make nocturnal effects. Maybe even
adding "phases" would be good.

> 6. Ventilation & Cooling
> - all that lighting will require that the ballasts are in a separate
> vented area (separate from the air under the canopy)
> - stainless steel tubing (with cooling fins) replaces conventional hoses,
> allowing atmospheric cooling using a small fan triggered by a
> thermocouple.

No arguments here.

> 7. Water/Atmospheric control
> - pH regulated through CO2 injected inside canopy (or skip to next item)
> - low pH amber/tannic appearance through black-water concentrate pellets,
> or processed/compressed leaf pellets
> - kH regulated through baking soda pellets
> - continuous monitoring of conductivity (TDS control)
> - plumbed directly into home's DWV and cold water supply line (for
> continuous water changes through a drip system)
> - thermocouple (replaces thermometer), to activate dynamic cooling
> (para.6) and reduce lighting to cool as required. (heater's thermocouple
> would be a separate unit in-line with heating elements).
> - backwash cycle which would pulse water in through the gravel, trapping
> mulm in screens located near overflow pipes

Again no arguments.

> 8. Power distribution
> - plug the canopy in and all peripherals connect to canopy's integrated
> GFI protected power bar.
>
> 9. Water Purification option
> - clear plastic bell fits on top of canopy (semi-integrated), housing
> various bog/terrestrial plants whose roots would strip out any remaining
> NO3 from non-planted tanks (silk plants would make a come back, but some
> people will always want real plants).

Can't give much thought on thst one.

> 10. Live Food option
> - habitat section in canopy for growing small creatures (ie: white worms
> in earth, feeding off decay from mechanical filtration stage, or mysis
> shrimp hatchery etc). Hatchery occupants will randomly 'escape' into main
> tank to be eaten.

Too much complication IMHO

> Did I miss anything? Today, this equipment & electronics exist
> separately, much of it in high volume consumer goods, except for:
> a) the canopy itself (fairly straightforward mould with several options
> and expansion panels to include odd sized aquarium dimensions).
> b) the canopy horizontal filter (plastic moulds) utilizing twin
> (redundancy) generic powerheads
> c) the controller and fairly straightforward programming
> d) integration of all the components

I would add that it should be easy on the hobbyist and that optional modules
can be added or removed depending on the hobbyists desires.

> Alone, I could prototype this in about 6 years (it is that easy), so a
> group of people could probably get one into pre-production testing in 12
> months, and into production, 6 months after that.
>
> The question is, would it sell. Would you buy one? Is it complete,
> anything missing?
> --
> www.NetMax.tk
>
Anyway these are jusy MY opinions

[Kevin Livingston]

"NetMax" > wrote in message
...
> "Kevin Livingston" > wrote in message
> ...
>> Shortened for ease of reading:
>>
>> "NetMax" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>> The canopy of the future will resemble what we have today, but will be
>>> much bigger, possibly 8 to 12" thick. It will incorporate things like:
>>>
>>> 10. Live Food option
>>> - habitat section in canopy for growing small creatures (ie: white worms
>>> in earth, feeding off decay from mechanical filtration stage, or mysis
>>> shrimp hatchery etc). Hatchery occupants will randomly 'escape' into
>>> main tank to be eaten.
>>
>> Too much complication IMHO
>
> re: complication, yes, but my motivation is a pet peeve close to my heart.
> As important as a HOB filter is, what aquariums *really* need is an HOB
> hatchery which would randomly release creatures into the water to be eaten
> by the fish. The problem is that my fish are bored. Their tank-mates
> have been selected with some scientific rigour. Their environment was
> researched, and they are generally in the biggest aquarium that I can
> afford them. They are happy, healthy and bored.
>
> Along with boredom, their food supply is a little too artificial, double
> feedings of dry processed foods with the occasional frozen treat when
> their caretaker remembers to do it. Their digestive system would be a lot
> happier with a more irregular diet scattered throughout the day, plus the
> thrill of finding a live creature swimming around, and then the chase, the
> catch, the satisfaction of beating your tank-mates, the swallow... and
> then if fish could smile :o).
>
> From Oscars to Neon tetras, fish like to spend most of their time in the
> pursuit of a meal. This is what they were hard-wired in nature to do.
> Eat, sleep, spawn, roam and avoid being eaten. In the confined controlled
> space of an aquarium, they eat (boring), sleep (boring), spawn (ok, though
> their choices of mates are always very limited), roam (to the end of the
> tank and back), and stay alive (usually no predators are in with them).
> Boring.
>
> So while the design of a hatchery would certainly be a complication, I
> would like to include it for the sake of their mental health ;~).
>

HOB hatchery? I wonder how that would work?

>> Anyway these are jusy MY opinions
>
> ....and I thank you for taking the time to write them :o).
>
> Statistically, every single opinion expressed represents a large number of
> similar opinions which were not expressed, so you're actually speaking on
> behalf of *many* people.
>
> cheers
> --
> www.NetMax.tk
>

[Daniel Morrow]

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Hash: SHA1

Mid posted.

- --
You can find my public key at https://keyserver1.pgp.com
"NetMax" > wrote in message
...
> "Daniel Morrow" > wrote in message
> ...
> > "NetMax" > wrote in message
> > ...
> <snip>
>
> > I would definitely buy one when starting a new tank and if the
price
> > was relatively reasonable (reasonable can extent to quite high
for me
> > - - maybe $200-$400 usa dollars for a

That is $200-$400 usa dollars for the canopy alone, not the 120
gallon tank included (that would be nice but I am being realistic
here).

120 gallon tank or larger). My 3
> > tanks are established so I wouldn't need to buy the whole shabang
in
> > the case of a breakdown as likely only one component would need
to be
> > replaced. Your idea would look awesome too compared to people
having
> > cables, cords, tubes and pipes spewed out all over the place. You
go
>
> Thanks!

You're welcome!

When I sold aquarium set-ups, I'd often get customers who
> inherited a tank (just the glass), and they wanted to buy
everything
> else. I explained that there were 4 cost drivers, and the order
(from
> most expensive to least expensive, over the 1st year) was usually:
>
> 1. equipment (canopy, lights, filters etc)
> 2. decorations, plants, fish, and their maintenance (foods, water
> treatment etc).
> 3. stand
> 4. tank (!)
>
> Economically, you're usually much better off with existing
equipment,
> stands and fish, and just buying a tank, than doing the reverse,
but
> emotionally, people rarely buy a tank to put under that spare
heater ;~),
> so tanks drive the industry. I'd have to design the canopy for
existing
> tanks, for hobbyists who were being successful and wanted to take
it to
> another level.
> --
> www.NetMax.tk
>
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[A Man]

Just make sure the components are easy to gain access to and clean, like the
food storage, and the filter.

And make sure the whole combined price is not too much more than the price of
the components. Otherwise most people will see no advantage to buying it.

--
Sig: Say no to fixed width HTML tables. They look terrible in most browsers.

[Liz McGuire]

NetMax wrote:
>
> > Yes, I'm a newbie who made the mistake of doing what the people at the
> > fish store told me, and so I've got to keep an eye on things daily
> > until the cycle is done (ammonia just hit 0 today! hooray! Nitrite
> > will follow soon, I'm sure (I added Bio-Spira on Monday, after learning
> > about it and how to properly apply it)).
>
> Congrats on the zero NH3. I've watched many people do jigs for this one.

<snip>

> ... The
> bad news is that NO2 spikes are longer than NH3, but I've heard very good
> things about Bio-Spira. I hope that you can keep us advised on your
> progress.

Well, a week after ammonia hit 0, I added another packet of Bio-Spira
(to help deal with my impatience <g>), 6 days after that, nitrite was
zero.

I now have all the fishies I intend for this tank - 6 neon tetras (one
is Scout, the others are too similar to distinguish), 5 harlequin
rasboras (Ras, Bo, Ra, Junior** and John Doe), and 2 otos (Oto and
Inky <g>, added Friday). Things are going well - test results so far
indicate the filters and my water change routine (~25%/week) are
working for this load. I never saw a secondary ammonia or nitrite
mini-spike and the water changes are keeping nitrate under ~15ppm.
Now to figure out how to keep Oto and Inky's brown-algae garden
growing! <g>

**Junior seems to have a few scales (3, from what I can tell, 2 on one
side, 1 on the other) that look like silver glitter (you know, the
little shiny squares children use to make a mess everywhere, er,
decorate stuff). Any idea what that might be? I'll try to take a
picture if I can get it - it's kinda hard, he's pretty active. He
came this way from the fish store - didn't notice until I got him in
the tank (light has to hit right). I'm not real worried as he seems
fine, just curious.

Thanks everyone for your comments on this group - whether to me or not
- they've been very helpful getting my first-ever tank up and running.

Liz

PS: I decided not to quarantine the new fishes, based on another
thread, and I have to say I do like the fish shop where I've been
getting fishies - I know it's probably too early to be sure, but these
guys have had no signs of disease or illness at all - everyone seems
healthy, normal and active. <knock, knock>

[NetMax]

"Liz McGuire" > wrote in message
...
> NetMax wrote:
>>
>> > Yes, I'm a newbie who made the mistake of doing what the people at
>> > the
>> > fish store told me, and so I've got to keep an eye on things daily
>> > until the cycle is done (ammonia just hit 0 today! hooray! Nitrite
>> > will follow soon, I'm sure (I added Bio-Spira on Monday, after
>> > learning
>> > about it and how to properly apply it)).
>>
>> Congrats on the zero NH3. I've watched many people do jigs for this
>> one.
>
> <snip>
>
>> ... The
>> bad news is that NO2 spikes are longer than NH3, but I've heard very
>> good
>> things about Bio-Spira. I hope that you can keep us advised on your
>> progress.
>
> Well, a week after ammonia hit 0, I added another packet of Bio-Spira
> (to help deal with my impatience <g>), 6 days after that, nitrite was
> zero.
>
> I now have all the fishies I intend for this tank - 6 neon tetras (one
> is Scout, the others are too similar to distinguish), 5 harlequin
> rasboras (Ras, Bo, Ra, Junior** and John Doe), and 2 otos (Oto and
> Inky <g>, added Friday). Things are going well - test results so far
> indicate the filters and my water change routine (~25%/week) are
> working for this load. I never saw a secondary ammonia or nitrite
> mini-spike and the water changes are keeping nitrate under ~15ppm.
> Now to figure out how to keep Oto and Inky's brown-algae garden
> growing! <g>
>
> **Junior seems to have a few scales (3, from what I can tell, 2 on one
> side, 1 on the other) that look like silver glitter (you know, the
> little shiny squares children use to make a mess everywhere, er,
> decorate stuff). Any idea what that might be? I'll try to take a
> picture if I can get it - it's kinda hard, he's pretty active. He
> came this way from the fish store - didn't notice until I got him in
> the tank (light has to hit right). I'm not real worried as he seems
> fine, just curious.
>
> Thanks everyone for your comments on this group - whether to me or not
> - they've been very helpful getting my first-ever tank up and running.
>
> Liz
>
> PS: I decided not to quarantine the new fishes, based on another
> thread, and I have to say I do like the fish shop where I've been
> getting fishies - I know it's probably too early to be sure, but these
> guys have had no signs of disease or illness at all - everyone seems
> healthy, normal and active. <knock, knock>

Congrats, and hopefully they're just a few loose scales which Junior is
replacing.
--
www.NetMax.tk

[Liz McGuire]

Thanks. I wondered if it could be missing or damaged scales. I'll
have to keep watching to see if anything changes. (Was kinda hoping
it was just an anomaly as it makes it very easy to tell him apart from
the others <g>)

Liz


NetMax wrote:
>
> Congrats, and hopefully they're just a few loose scales which Junior is
> replacing.
> --
> www.NetMax.tk