Greatest dangers, life of a fish

[NetMax]

Does anyone want to try their hand at listing the causes of death for
aquarium fish, in order?

For a new tank or in novice hands
#1 water shock
#2 disease through contagions
#3 overfeeding and/or poor maintenance
#4 death from tank-mates
#5 equipment failure
#6 disease through old age

For most LFS, same order as above (and what does that say about their
procedures?).

For an established tank, or in experienced hands, the sequence seems to
reverse around the middle.
#6 disease through old age
#5 equipment failure
#3 overfeeding and/or poor maintenance
#4 death from tank-mates
#2 disease through contagions
#1 water shock

I'd guess #4 is higher in mbuna tanks, and #2 is higher for anyone buying
fish.
--
www.NetMax.tk

[Frank]

NetMax wrote,
>Does anyone want to try their hand at listing the causes of death for
>aquarium fish, in order?

I would suspect at least 85 to 90% of fish diseases/death for the
novice are due to poor water quality.

I would also add a list of Sudden Death Causes for both novice and LFS;
osmotic pressure shock (used to be called pH shock), temperature shock,
ammonia/nitrite shock, lack of oxygen, poisoning, and bad food... Along
with Defining Water Quality; #1 - organic pollution, #2 -
ammonia/nitrite/nitrAte, #3 - dH/pH/temperature, #4 - chemically clean
ie: chlorine, heavy metals, chemicals (treatments), organophosphates,
and #5 - stability (no fluctuation). ........ Frank

[Gill Passman]

NetMax wrote:
> Does anyone want to try their hand at listing the causes of death for
> aquarium fish, in order?
>
> For a new tank or in novice hands
> #1 water shock
> #2 disease through contagions
> #3 overfeeding and/or poor maintenance
> #4 death from tank-mates
> #5 equipment failure
> #6 disease through old age
>
> For most LFS, same order as above (and what does that say about their
> procedures?).
>
> For an established tank, or in experienced hands, the sequence seems to
> reverse around the middle.
> #6 disease through old age
> #5 equipment failure
> #3 overfeeding and/or poor maintenance
> #4 death from tank-mates
> #2 disease through contagions
> #1 water shock
>
> I'd guess #4 is higher in mbuna tanks, and #2 is higher for anyone buying
> fish.

Most likely cause of death in my Mbuna tank is most certainly #4 and
also possibly starvation when the females are holding - lost a yellow
lab this way :-( - she died/was murdered shortly after releasing the fry.

Other than the Mbunas the majority of deaths that I have are new fish
dying shortly after purchase for whatever reason...

Gill

[Koi-lo]

"NetMax" > wrote in message
.. .
> Does anyone want to try their hand at listing the causes of death for
> aquarium fish, in order?
>
> For a new tank or in novice hands
> #1 water shock
> #2 disease through contagions
> #3 overfeeding and/or poor maintenance
> #4 death from tank-mates
> #5 equipment failure
> #6 disease through old age
=================
# Heater flips out and cooks fish.
# Lost electricity in home chills tropicals to death.
# Tank splits it's side or cracks right after you leave for work in the
morning - fish dry out and die.
# Fish jumps out of tank and dies on the floor or from internal injuries
afterward.
# Exterminator sprays too close to tanks or aerator intake.


My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastadaisy
~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>

[Liz]

I think Frank is right on the money for newbies (being one myself).
The fish store doesn't say anything about cycling, the instruction
video/booklet that comes with the "kit" tanks don't say anything about
cycling, the books sold at the fish store don't say anything/enough
about cycling. I would put this as the #1 reason for newbies losing
fish.

Except for people at the fish store, there was enough info about making
sure temperature, hardness and pH were stable and appropriate for the
fish you're getting, and the kit came with water treatment samples to
remove chlorine, and that was explained. These materials also talked
about making sure your equipment was working, your tank doesn't leak
and needing to gravel vacuum, scrub the sides of the tank and change
water.

It wasn't until after I had fish that I thought it might be interesting
to read forums and newsgroups (rather than just looking at photos of
fish to pick out the next purchase) and that's how I found out about
cycling and about the mistakes I'd made up front.

FWIW,

Liz

[Frank]

Gill wrote,

>Other than the Mbunas the majority of deaths that I have are new fish
>dying shortly after purchase for whatever reason...

99% of the time if your "new fish" die, but the tank you bought the
fish out of back at the pet store are all still alive and looking good,
yours died of osmotic pressure shock. In an aged tank or one full of
fish at the pet store, the TDS (total dissolved solids) within their
tanks are at much higher, or lower levels, than the levels of TDS
within your tank. A sudden change of more than 20% (especially lower)
destroys the fish's gills. That's why one should not change more than
20% of the tanks water per day - always better to do two or three
smaller water changes than one large one............ Frank

[Bill Stock]

"NetMax" > wrote in message
.. .
> Does anyone want to try their hand at listing the causes of death for
> aquarium fish, in order?
>
> For a new tank or in novice hands
> #1 water shock
> #2 disease through contagions
> #3 overfeeding and/or poor maintenance
> #4 death from tank-mates
> #5 equipment failure
> #6 disease through old age
>
> For most LFS, same order as above (and what does that say about their
> procedures?).
>
> For an established tank, or in experienced hands, the sequence seems to
> reverse around the middle.
> #6 disease through old age
> #5 equipment failure
> #3 overfeeding and/or poor maintenance
> #4 death from tank-mates
> #2 disease through contagions
> #1 water shock
>
> I'd guess #4 is higher in mbuna tanks, and #2 is higher for anyone buying
> fish.
> --
> www.NetMax.tk

Pond deaths

#1 Death by Raccoon
#2 Death by Heron
#3 Transport/Water shock

Aquarium Deaths

#1 Unknown - Possible disease
#2 Unknown - Possible harassment

[Gill Passman]

Frank wrote:
> Gill wrote,
>
>
>>Other than the Mbunas the majority of deaths that I have are new fish
>>dying shortly after purchase for whatever reason...
>
>
> 99% of the time if your "new fish" die, but the tank you bought the
> fish out of back at the pet store are all still alive and looking good,
> yours died of osmotic pressure shock. In an aged tank or one full of
> fish at the pet store, the TDS (total dissolved solids) within their
> tanks are at much higher, or lower levels, than the levels of TDS
> within your tank. A sudden change of more than 20% (especially lower)
> destroys the fish's gills. That's why one should not change more than
> 20% of the tanks water per day - always better to do two or three
> smaller water changes than one large one............ Frank
>

I'm not convinced that the stock was that great because of their
readiness to give me credit with no proof of dead fish or water
quality...the fish actually went into a number of different tanks and I
was able to give statistics on the fish that died against those that I
had bought from various other sources that had a better survival rate
against the ones where I got the 30% mortality rate....the manager
suggested that I monitored new purchases from elsewhere to see if I got
the same mortality rate and it has to be said we are currently at 100%
survival even though I now have a persistent ich problem (dealing with
it so don't need advice)...I was quite sad about all this because the
LFS in question is meticulous with their tank maintainance and I'd never
had a problem before - the main reason I went and gave them the figures
was to highlight to them that there was a potential problem rather than
to actually complain....

I always monitor water quality for a few days before buying any new fish....

gill

[NetMax]

"Bill Stock" > wrote in message
...
>
> "NetMax" > wrote in message
> .. .
>> Does anyone want to try their hand at listing the causes of death for
>> aquarium fish, in order?
>>
>> For a new tank or in novice hands
>> #1 water shock
>> #2 disease through contagions
>> #3 overfeeding and/or poor maintenance
>> #4 death from tank-mates
>> #5 equipment failure
>> #6 disease through old age
>>
>> For most LFS, same order as above (and what does that say about their
>> procedures?).
>>
>> For an established tank, or in experienced hands, the sequence seems
>> to reverse around the middle.
>> #6 disease through old age
>> #5 equipment failure
>> #3 overfeeding and/or poor maintenance
>> #4 death from tank-mates
>> #2 disease through contagions
>> #1 water shock
>>
>> I'd guess #4 is higher in mbuna tanks, and #2 is higher for anyone
>> buying fish.
>> --
>> www.NetMax.tk
>
> Pond deaths
>
> #1 Death by Raccoon
> #2 Death by Heron
> #3 Transport/Water shock
>
> Aquarium Deaths
>
> #1 Unknown - Possible disease
> #2 Unknown - Possible harassment


lol, *oops sorry* ;~) I didn't think to include ponds in my
calculations. I babysat a pond for friends this summer. Their list last
year would have been
#1 spawning
#2 algae

Ordinarily, one would not associate spawning and algae with death, but
apparently when these fish spawn, the amount of organic matter in the
pond is enough to pH shock it (decaying organic matter acidifies the
water when the buffer is already low) and create a significant ammonia
spike. The algae (bloom) chokes the O2 and also fuels the problem of
ammonia and low buffer. Ponds are just a completely different kettle of
fish though *excuse the bad pun*.
--
www.NetMax.tk

[Justice]

NetMax wrote:
> Does anyone want to try their hand at listing the causes of death for
> aquarium fish, in order?
>
> For a new tank or in novice hands
> #1 water shock
> #2 disease through contagions
> #3 overfeeding and/or poor maintenance
> #4 death from tank-mates
> #5 equipment failure
> #6 disease through old age
>
Well i am a novice and have not relly sufferd from any of thies
problems, execpt for #3 I have had ich and some body fungus, ich from my
loaches nothing major. body fugus from bandid rinbow he has clered up
but still flahes the filerer intake? no visual signgs scales came back
from major infestation maybe there is still some left?


> For most LFS, same order as above (and what does that say about their
> procedures?).
>
> For an established tank, or in experienced hands, the sequence seems to
> reverse around the middle.
> #6 disease through old age
> #5 equipment failure
> #3 overfeeding and/or poor maintenance
> #4 death from tank-mates
> #2 disease through contagions
> #1 water shock
>
> I'd guess #4 is higher in mbuna tanks, and #2 is higher for anyone buying
> fish.

[Bill Stock]

"NetMax" > wrote in message
.. .
> "Bill Stock" > wrote in message
> ...
>>
>> "NetMax" > wrote in message
>> .. .
>>> Does anyone want to try their hand at listing the causes of death for
>>> aquarium fish, in order?
>>>
>>> For a new tank or in novice hands
>>> #1 water shock
>>> #2 disease through contagions
>>> #3 overfeeding and/or poor maintenance
>>> #4 death from tank-mates
>>> #5 equipment failure
>>> #6 disease through old age
>>>
>>> For most LFS, same order as above (and what does that say about their
>>> procedures?).
>>>
>>> For an established tank, or in experienced hands, the sequence seems to
>>> reverse around the middle.
>>> #6 disease through old age
>>> #5 equipment failure
>>> #3 overfeeding and/or poor maintenance
>>> #4 death from tank-mates
>>> #2 disease through contagions
>>> #1 water shock
>>>
>>> I'd guess #4 is higher in mbuna tanks, and #2 is higher for anyone
>>> buying fish.
>>> --
>>> www.NetMax.tk
>>
>> Pond deaths
>>
>> #1 Death by Raccoon
>> #2 Death by Heron
>> #3 Transport/Water shock
>>
>> Aquarium Deaths
>>
>> #1 Unknown - Possible disease
>> #2 Unknown - Possible harassment
>
>
> lol, *oops sorry* ;~) I didn't think to include ponds in my calculations.
> I babysat a pond for friends this summer. Their list last year would have
> been
> #1 spawning
> #2 algae
>
> Ordinarily, one would not associate spawning and algae with death, but
> apparently when these fish spawn, the amount of organic matter in the pond
> is enough to pH shock it (decaying organic matter acidifies the water when
> the buffer is already low) and create a significant ammonia spike. The
> algae (bloom) chokes the O2 and also fuels the problem of ammonia and low
> buffer. Ponds are just a completely different kettle of fish though
> *excuse the bad pun*.

This is very timely.

I brought the pond fish inside yesterday, as my pond is too shallow to
survive a cold winter. Although it looks like we're going to have a warm one
this year. So I decided to check the PH, as the pond normally has a PH of
about 8.4 and the tap water is 7.5 or less. I was concerned about PH shock,
although I intended to mix 50% pond water and 50% tap water. But when I
tested the pond, it had a PH of 7.2. I thought this was really odd, since
the pond has a fair amount of Limestone to buffer the KH. It was when I
started to add the pond water to tap water that I started to understand what
had caused the PH drop. The water quickly became the colour of weak tea,
even at a 50/50 mix. The mess of leaves in the pond had lowered the PH
considerably.

The Hair Algae I'd been fighting all summer was also gone. I don't know if
this was caused by the cold, the eventual success of the plants or one of
the snake oils (Pondzyme) I'd been trying. Regardless, it likely added to
the PH drop. A fortunate happenstance really.




> --
> www.NetMax.tk
>

[NetMax]

"Dick" > wrote in message
...
> On Sat, 12 Nov 2005 09:16:39 -0500, "NetMax"
> > wrote:
>
>>Does anyone want to try their hand at listing the causes of death for
>>aquarium fish, in order?
>>
>>For a new tank or in novice hands
>>#1 water shock
>>#2 disease through contagions
>>#3 overfeeding and/or poor maintenance
>>#4 death from tank-mates
>>#5 equipment failure
>>#6 disease through old age
>>
>>For most LFS, same order as above (and what does that say about their
>>procedures?).
>>
>>For an established tank, or in experienced hands, the sequence seems to
>>reverse around the middle.
>>#6 disease through old age
>>#5 equipment failure
>>#3 overfeeding and/or poor maintenance
>>#4 death from tank-mates
>>#2 disease through contagions
>>#1 water shock
>>
>>I'd guess #4 is higher in mbuna tanks, and #2 is higher for anyone
>>buying
>>fish.
>
>
> I would sort by species. Black Mollies being first to die of assorted
> problems.
>
> Live bearers after first year seem to die from assorted problems.
> Dropsy and swim bladder diseases among live bearers.
>
> Non live bearers seem to be disease free and longer lived.
>
> I have never lost a new fish and they all were shipped overnight
> deliveries. Exception, 6 Clown Loaches arrived with heavy ich. The
> vendor acknowledge it was his problem. I destroyed all but 2 which
> are doing well after over 2 years along with their 6 replacements and
> 3 from earlier purchase.
>
> Death due to poor handling, I fried a bunch with acid while adjusting
> pH.
>
> I have lost 2 plecos within first 6 months. No obvious cause of
> death.
>
> I am curious why live bearers are so shorter lived and disease prone?
> They share the same conditions as the non live bearers.

When I was in the trade, I had very high losses with livebearers, so I
complained to my importers who were also hobbyists. They told me that I
needed to buy freshwater livebearers, not the regular fish, but that the
freshwater livebearers were much more expensive and not always available.
Here is the story:

Commercial farms are always looking for inexpensive ways to reduce the
amount of diseases in their system (imagine row after row of 50,000g to
200,000g ponds). Treating an entire pond of fish with antibiotics is not
an option for them. The hotter the water is, the less bacteria will
survive, so this is one method which can be used effectively indoors or
in greenhouses (and to a lesser degree outside). The higher temperatures
also causes the fish to 'artificially' grow very quickly, if an
appropriate diet is maintained. Salty water will also prevent many
diseases, but not all fish can tolerate high levels of salt. Livebearers
can, so commercially raised livebearers are born and raised in hot salty
water.

Then they are shipped to the LFS where they are dropped into cold
freshwater (much colder than they are accustomed to). At this point the
fish begin to react from water-shock, beoming particularly suceptible to
diseases such as Columnaris. If they survive the transistion, their live
expectancy is significantly shortened, to the point that I would advise
customers to raise the fry and not concern themselves with the fact that
the adults only live 6 months. Their fry appear to be perfectly
acclimated to the cooler freshwater they were born into.

The cost increase was about 20%, so I immediately switched over (this is
really not a big increase considering the mark-up on fish). However I
had a shipment of 'regular' livebearers coming from Thailand, so I set up
2 banks of tanks (18 x 20g tank partitions) with 100% water change and
mixed in the salt levels I was told were being used (I can't recall the
level, but it would be in an earlier post of mine). The difference in
losses was night & day (something like 1.5%). All of my staff were
commenting on the improvement. The only problem was that I had to sell
them as brackish water fish, and it took me several weeks to slowly bring
the salt levels down. I'm not entirely sure how effective it was
reducing the salt gradually. My losses were very low, and many of the
fish got sold (with instruction on salt concentration and how quickly to
reduce it), but my statistics are limited to until they got sold, so I
don't know if their overall life expectancy was improved.

I then started receiving 'freshwater' livebearers (primarily Guppies
which were the most affected, and I still had lots of Platys &
Swordtails, - and Mollys I always treat as brackish anyways) which I kept
on the other side of the room. They seemed to have a very normal
mortality level, which was great.

> After first year, survival of the fittest settled in. After 3 years I
> see individual fish become mishappened, fungus come and go, periods of
> hiding, but month after month my stock remains stable.
>
> I haven't bought any new fish in the last 2 years.

I'm going on 1.5 years, with one loss, and if more don't die soon,
they're going to grow me out of house & home ;~).

Sorry for the long post Dick, but you did ask, and I try to be thorough
:o)
--
www.NetMax.tk

>
> dick
>
>

[NetMax]

"Mark Stone" > wrote in message
...
>
> "NetMax" > wrote in message
> .. .
>> Does anyone want to try their hand at listing the causes of death for
>> aquarium fish, in order?
>>
>> For a new tank or in novice hands
>> #1 water shock
>> #2 disease through contagions
>> #3 overfeeding and/or poor maintenance
>> #4 death from tank-mates
>> #5 equipment failure
>> #6 disease through old age
>>
>> For most LFS, same order as above (and what does that say about their
>> procedures?).
>>
>> For an established tank, or in experienced hands, the sequence seems
>> to reverse around the middle.
>> #6 disease through old age
>> #5 equipment failure
>> #3 overfeeding and/or poor maintenance
>> #4 death from tank-mates
>> #2 disease through contagions
>> #1 water shock
>>
>> I'd guess #4 is higher in mbuna tanks, and #2 is higher for anyone
>> buying fish.
>> --
>> www.NetMax.tk
>>
>
> Two things we forgot on both lists:
>
> #1 -- Pet shops that are primarily out for profit, even if they may
> sell fish inapropriately (i.e. baby Oscars to 10-Gallon tank owners)
> #2 -- Fishkeepers who do not study species before making purchases (Why
> did the new Oscar eat all the guppies?!?)
>
> --Mark Stone
> OSCAR Lovers! http://www.geocities.com/cichlidiot_2000/oscar.html


Hi Mark, don't see you in rafm too much. That was a good answer you gave
to djtonyc77 in rafc about his Oscar's weird behaviour. Had me stumped,
until I read your post.

I guess your new category would be death by negligence. I probably
missed that one because most everyone here is too well informed to be
guilty of it (or at least they will be if they stay awake through enough
of my long boring posts ;~).

cheers
--
www.NetMax.tk

[Koi-lo]

"Bill Stock" > wrote in message
...
> Pond deaths
>
> #1 Death by Raccoon
> #2 Death by Heron
> #3 Transport/Water shock
=====================
# 4. Snapper turtle
# 5. Kingfisher
# 6. Water snakes
# 7. Bullfrogs
--
Reel McKoi.... frugal ponding since 1995...
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastadaisy
~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>

[Mark Stone]

"NetMax" > wrote in message
.. .
> Does anyone want to try their hand at listing the causes of death for
> aquarium fish, in order?
>
> For a new tank or in novice hands
> #1 water shock
> #2 disease through contagions
> #3 overfeeding and/or poor maintenance
> #4 death from tank-mates
> #5 equipment failure
> #6 disease through old age
>
> For most LFS, same order as above (and what does that say about their
> procedures?).
>
> For an established tank, or in experienced hands, the sequence seems to
> reverse around the middle.
> #6 disease through old age
> #5 equipment failure
> #3 overfeeding and/or poor maintenance
> #4 death from tank-mates
> #2 disease through contagions
> #1 water shock
>
> I'd guess #4 is higher in mbuna tanks, and #2 is higher for anyone buying
> fish.
> --
> www.NetMax.tk
>

Two things we forgot on both lists:

#1 -- Pet shops that are primarily out for profit, even if they may sell
fish inapropriately (i.e. baby Oscars to 10-Gallon tank owners)
#2 -- Fishkeepers who do not study species before making purchases (Why did
the new Oscar eat all the guppies?!?)

--Mark Stone
OSCAR Lovers! http://www.geocities.com/cichlidiot_2000/oscar.html
The ".Edu" meens i are smart.

[Dick]

On Sat, 12 Nov 2005 09:16:39 -0500, "NetMax"
> wrote:

>Does anyone want to try their hand at listing the causes of death for
>aquarium fish, in order?
>
>For a new tank or in novice hands
>#1 water shock
>#2 disease through contagions
>#3 overfeeding and/or poor maintenance
>#4 death from tank-mates
>#5 equipment failure
>#6 disease through old age
>
>For most LFS, same order as above (and what does that say about their
>procedures?).
>
>For an established tank, or in experienced hands, the sequence seems to
>reverse around the middle.
>#6 disease through old age
>#5 equipment failure
>#3 overfeeding and/or poor maintenance
>#4 death from tank-mates
>#2 disease through contagions
>#1 water shock
>
>I'd guess #4 is higher in mbuna tanks, and #2 is higher for anyone buying
>fish.


I would sort by species. Black Mollies being first to die of assorted
problems.

Live bearers after first year seem to die from assorted problems.
Dropsy and swim bladder diseases among live bearers.

Non live bearers seem to be disease free and longer lived.

I have never lost a new fish and they all were shipped overnight
deliveries. Exception, 6 Clown Loaches arrived with heavy ich. The
vendor acknowledge it was his problem. I destroyed all but 2 which
are doing well after over 2 years along with their 6 replacements and
3 from earlier purchase.

Death due to poor handling, I fried a bunch with acid while adjusting
pH.

I have lost 2 plecos within first 6 months. No obvious cause of
death.

I am curious why live bearers are so shorter lived and disease prone?
They share the same conditions as the non live bearers.

After first year, survival of the fittest settled in. After 3 years I
see individual fish become mishappened, fungus come and go, periods of
hiding, but month after month my stock remains stable.

I haven't bought any new fish in the last 2 years.

dick

[NetMax]

"Daniel Morrow" > wrote in message
...
> You can find my public key at https://keyserver1.pgp.com
> "NetMax" > wrote in message
> ...
>> "Dick" > wrote in message
>> ...
>> > On Sat, 12 Nov 2005 09:16:39 -0500, "NetMax"
>> > > wrote:
<snip>

> What I find interesting with my livebearer (my fancy guppies) is that
> for the first 6-12 months they needed no salt added to thrive, and
> now after that period of time (I am not complaining though and am
> happy that I have the solution of adding salt for my fancy guppies to
> be perfectly happy and I think healthy) they will not thrive even
> close to before without salt added. I suspect my strain of fancy
> guppies has gained a requirement of salt after stages of progressive
> generations (i.e. the requirement is genetic). It's interesting that
> my situation is the reverse of what netmax describes (i.e. fish
> showing up at a store requiring salt then after reproducing in
> freshwater there the descendants acclimate to freshwater with no
> salt), but I must say - a little salt added to the water makes me
> happy if it makes my fancy guppies thrive and be happy and I think
> healthy.

Livebearers are known to do better with salt, especially Mollys. I think
you got good stock, perhaps locally bred, and then improved their lot by
adding salt. A variable is also your water hardness. Having hard water
might alleviate part of the need for salt, I don't know. My store
experience didn't track the Guppies long term, and my home experience,
was that they were not very hardy in my hard and salty water, so I think
I went to the other extreme with them.
--
www.NetMax.tk

[Daniel Morrow]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Bottom posted.

- --
You can find my public key at https://keyserver1.pgp.com
"NetMax" > wrote in message
...
> "Dick" > wrote in message
> ...
> > On Sat, 12 Nov 2005 09:16:39 -0500, "NetMax"
> > > wrote:
> >
> >>Does anyone want to try their hand at listing the causes of death
for
> >>aquarium fish, in order?
> >>
> >>For a new tank or in novice hands
> >>#1 water shock
> >>#2 disease through contagions
> >>#3 overfeeding and/or poor maintenance
> >>#4 death from tank-mates
> >>#5 equipment failure
> >>#6 disease through old age
> >>
> >>For most LFS, same order as above (and what does that say about
their
> >>procedures?).
> >>
> >>For an established tank, or in experienced hands, the sequence
seems to
> >>reverse around the middle.
> >>#6 disease through old age
> >>#5 equipment failure
> >>#3 overfeeding and/or poor maintenance
> >>#4 death from tank-mates
> >>#2 disease through contagions
> >>#1 water shock
> >>
> >>I'd guess #4 is higher in mbuna tanks, and #2 is higher for
anyone
> >>buying
> >>fish.
> >
> >
> > I would sort by species. Black Mollies being first to die of
assorted
> > problems.
> >
> > Live bearers after first year seem to die from assorted
problems.
> > Dropsy and swim bladder diseases among live bearers.
> >
> > Non live bearers seem to be disease free and longer lived.
> >
> > I have never lost a new fish and they all were shipped overnight
> > deliveries. Exception, 6 Clown Loaches arrived with heavy ich.
The
> > vendor acknowledge it was his problem. I destroyed all but 2
which
> > are doing well after over 2 years along with their 6 replacements
and
> > 3 from earlier purchase.
> >
> > Death due to poor handling, I fried a bunch with acid while
adjusting
> > pH.
> >
> > I have lost 2 plecos within first 6 months. No obvious cause of
> > death.
> >
> > I am curious why live bearers are so shorter lived and disease
prone?
> > They share the same conditions as the non live bearers.
>
> When I was in the trade, I had very high losses with livebearers,
so I
> complained to my importers who were also hobbyists. They told me
that I
> needed to buy freshwater livebearers, not the regular fish, but
that the
> freshwater livebearers were much more expensive and not always
available.
> Here is the story:
>
> Commercial farms are always looking for inexpensive ways to reduce
the
> amount of diseases in their system (imagine row after row of
50,000g to
> 200,000g ponds). Treating an entire pond of fish with antibiotics
is not
> an option for them. The hotter the water is, the less bacteria will

> survive, so this is one method which can be used effectively
indoors or
> in greenhouses (and to a lesser degree outside). The higher
temperatures
> also causes the fish to 'artificially' grow very quickly, if an
> appropriate diet is maintained. Salty water will also prevent
many
> diseases, but not all fish can tolerate high levels of salt.
Livebearers
> can, so commercially raised livebearers are born and raised in hot
salty
> water.
>
> Then they are shipped to the LFS where they are dropped into cold
> freshwater (much colder than they are accustomed to). At this
point the
> fish begin to react from water-shock, beoming particularly
suceptible to
> diseases such as Columnaris. If they survive the transistion,
their live
> expectancy is significantly shortened, to the point that I would
advise
> customers to raise the fry and not concern themselves with the fact
that
> the adults only live 6 months. Their fry appear to be perfectly
> acclimated to the cooler freshwater they were born into.
>
> The cost increase was about 20%, so I immediately switched over
(this is
> really not a big increase considering the mark-up on fish).
However I
> had a shipment of 'regular' livebearers coming from Thailand, so I
set up
> 2 banks of tanks (18 x 20g tank partitions) with 100% water change
and
> mixed in the salt levels I was told were being used (I can't recall
the
> level, but it would be in an earlier post of mine). The difference
in
> losses was night & day (something like 1.5%). All of my staff were

> commenting on the improvement. The only problem was that I had to
sell
> them as brackish water fish, and it took me several weeks to slowly
bring
> the salt levels down. I'm not entirely sure how effective it was
> reducing the salt gradually. My losses were very low, and many of
the
> fish got sold (with instruction on salt concentration and how
quickly to
> reduce it), but my statistics are limited to until they got sold,
so I
> don't know if their overall life expectancy was improved.
>
> I then started receiving 'freshwater' livebearers (primarily
Guppies
> which were the most affected, and I still had lots of Platys &
> Swordtails, - and Mollys I always treat as brackish anyways) which
I kept
> on the other side of the room. They seemed to have a very normal
> mortality level, which was great.
>
> > After first year, survival of the fittest settled in. After 3
years I
> > see individual fish become mishappened, fungus come and go,
periods of
> > hiding, but month after month my stock remains stable.
> >
> > I haven't bought any new fish in the last 2 years.
>
> I'm going on 1.5 years, with one loss, and if more don't die soon,

> they're going to grow me out of house & home ;~).
>
> Sorry for the long post Dick, but you did ask, and I try to be
thorough
> :o)
> --
> www.NetMax.tk
>
> >
> > dick
> >
> >
>
>

What I find interesting with my livebearer (my fancy guppies) is that
for the first 6-12 months they needed no salt added to thrive, and
now after that period of time (I am not complaining though and am
happy that I have the solution of adding salt for my fancy guppies to
be perfectly happy and I think healthy) they will not thrive even
close to before without salt added. I suspect my strain of fancy
guppies has gained a requirement of salt after stages of progressive
generations (i.e. the requirement is genetic). It's interesting that
my situation is the reverse of what netmax describes (i.e. fish
showing up at a store requiring salt then after reproducing in
freshwater there the descendants acclimate to freshwater with no
salt), but I must say - a little salt added to the water makes me
happy if it makes my fancy guppies thrive and be happy and I think
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.2.1 (MingW32) - WinPT 0.7.96rc1

iQD1AwUBQ3fPvK2WfcjE5myzAQLIsgb+PIdBvu7+vwKY72UBT0 p8zWJqLJ1TrAQy
UrNoRXxu5Lv+/yJNXh0yD+7Lm6FOIRGx/a3PFLerFcqjQzEcDGZKWTTYkeJ5OkXG
wjySsEaYur9P+ESAAfaHPA4Nv890y4jCzr0sYUCFO5+1MfhJ5r qyMRfptPkK5McE
DgMgeZaC52HIRufhD+X1LuQ88Zp5L5CvCS7IRza+EO2WwLbUZn V5RWxpefzqy/yz
TDVh/OWLG3wb6C1gxfX261Rq2uTLA3iSATnqhjShMHKAF3PkJNcjUgt nM3OhSxo1
46M9CoA8K1Y=
=ql3k
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

[Dick]

On Sat, 12 Nov 2005 22:40:49 -0500, "NetMax"
> wrote:

>"Dick" > wrote in message
...
>> On Sat, 12 Nov 2005 09:16:39 -0500, "NetMax"
>> > wrote:
>>
>>>Does anyone want to try their hand at listing the causes of death for
>>>aquarium fish, in order?
>>>
>>>For a new tank or in novice hands
>>>#1 water shock
>>>#2 disease through contagions
>>>#3 overfeeding and/or poor maintenance
>>>#4 death from tank-mates
>>>#5 equipment failure
>>>#6 disease through old age
>>>
>>>For most LFS, same order as above (and what does that say about their
>>>procedures?).
>>>
>>>For an established tank, or in experienced hands, the sequence seems to
>>>reverse around the middle.
>>>#6 disease through old age
>>>#5 equipment failure
>>>#3 overfeeding and/or poor maintenance
>>>#4 death from tank-mates
>>>#2 disease through contagions
>>>#1 water shock
>>>
>>>I'd guess #4 is higher in mbuna tanks, and #2 is higher for anyone
>>>buying
>>>fish.
>>
>>
>> I would sort by species. Black Mollies being first to die of assorted
>> problems.
>>
>> Live bearers after first year seem to die from assorted problems.
>> Dropsy and swim bladder diseases among live bearers.
>>
>> Non live bearers seem to be disease free and longer lived.
>>
>> I have never lost a new fish and they all were shipped overnight
>> deliveries. Exception, 6 Clown Loaches arrived with heavy ich. The
>> vendor acknowledge it was his problem. I destroyed all but 2 which
>> are doing well after over 2 years along with their 6 replacements and
>> 3 from earlier purchase.
>>
>> Death due to poor handling, I fried a bunch with acid while adjusting
>> pH.
>>
>> I have lost 2 plecos within first 6 months. No obvious cause of
>> death.
>>
>> I am curious why live bearers are so shorter lived and disease prone?
>> They share the same conditions as the non live bearers.
>
>When I was in the trade, I had very high losses with livebearers, so I
>complained to my importers who were also hobbyists. They told me that I
>needed to buy freshwater livebearers, not the regular fish, but that the
>freshwater livebearers were much more expensive and not always available.
>Here is the story:
>
>Commercial farms are always looking for inexpensive ways to reduce the
>amount of diseases in their system (imagine row after row of 50,000g to
>200,000g ponds). Treating an entire pond of fish with antibiotics is not
>an option for them. The hotter the water is, the less bacteria will
>survive, so this is one method which can be used effectively indoors or
>in greenhouses (and to a lesser degree outside). The higher temperatures
>also causes the fish to 'artificially' grow very quickly, if an
>appropriate diet is maintained. Salty water will also prevent many
>diseases, but not all fish can tolerate high levels of salt. Livebearers
>can, so commercially raised livebearers are born and raised in hot salty
>water.
>
>Then they are shipped to the LFS where they are dropped into cold
>freshwater (much colder than they are accustomed to). At this point the
>fish begin to react from water-shock, beoming particularly suceptible to
>diseases such as Columnaris. If they survive the transistion, their live
>expectancy is significantly shortened, to the point that I would advise
>customers to raise the fry and not concern themselves with the fact that
>the adults only live 6 months. Their fry appear to be perfectly
>acclimated to the cooler freshwater they were born into.
>
>The cost increase was about 20%, so I immediately switched over (this is
>really not a big increase considering the mark-up on fish). However I
>had a shipment of 'regular' livebearers coming from Thailand, so I set up
>2 banks of tanks (18 x 20g tank partitions) with 100% water change and
>mixed in the salt levels I was told were being used (I can't recall the
>level, but it would be in an earlier post of mine). The difference in
>losses was night & day (something like 1.5%). All of my staff were
>commenting on the improvement. The only problem was that I had to sell
>them as brackish water fish, and it took me several weeks to slowly bring
>the salt levels down. I'm not entirely sure how effective it was
>reducing the salt gradually. My losses were very low, and many of the
>fish got sold (with instruction on salt concentration and how quickly to
>reduce it), but my statistics are limited to until they got sold, so I
>don't know if their overall life expectancy was improved.
>
>I then started receiving 'freshwater' livebearers (primarily Guppies
>which were the most affected, and I still had lots of Platys &
>Swordtails, - and Mollys I always treat as brackish anyways) which I kept
>on the other side of the room. They seemed to have a very normal
>mortality level, which was great.
>
>> After first year, survival of the fittest settled in. After 3 years I
>> see individual fish become mishappened, fungus come and go, periods of
>> hiding, but month after month my stock remains stable.
>>
>> I haven't bought any new fish in the last 2 years.
>
>I'm going on 1.5 years, with one loss, and if more don't die soon,
>they're going to grow me out of house & home ;~).
>
>Sorry for the long post Dick, but you did ask, and I try to be thorough
>:o)

Appreciate your experience. As to "grow out of house & home" I
separated the boys from the girls over 6 months ago. When the
remaining live bearers are gone, there will be no more.

As to the others, my concern is they will outlive me! <g> I
understand the Clowns and SAEs my live 20 years, that will really push
my life expectancy.

I have one 10 gallon tank with 8 "Harlequin Raspora Cyprinids". The
tank is half filled with an Anubia, top to bottom, side to side. This
Anubia is huge. The combination is great looking with the Harlequins
staying together in and out of the open areas between the massive
leaves. Never had any illness or deaths in this tank.

Another fish I like a lot is the "Red Serpae Tetras", also a healthy
fish. Out of 10 Bleeding Heart Tetras, I had one die, just quit
eating and died and one that has a swim bladder ailment, but has hung
on for months. So in my 3 years I have learned to appreciate the egg
layers.

dick

[Dick]

On Sun, 13 Nov 2005 08:47:55 -0500, "NetMax"
> wrote:

>Livebearers are known to do better with salt, especially Mollys. I think
>you got good stock, perhaps locally bred, and then improved their lot by
>adding salt. A variable is also your water hardness. Having hard water
>might alleviate part of the need for salt, I don't know. My store
>experience didn't track the Guppies long term, and my home experience,
>was that they were not very hardy in my hard and salty water, so I think
>I went to the other extreme with them.
>--
>www.NetMax.tk

I have hard water NetMax. It didn't seem to help my live bearers.

dick

[Mark Stone]

"NetMax" > wrote in message
...
> Hi Mark, don't see you in rafm too much. That was a good answer you gave
> to djtonyc77 in rafc about his Oscar's weird behaviour. Had me stumped,
> until I read your post.

Never seen you stumped before! :-)
>
> I guess your new category would be death by negligence. I probably missed
> that one because most everyone here is too well informed to be guilty of
> it (or at least they will be if they stay awake through enough of my long
> boring posts ;~).
>
Your posts aren't long and boring -- just boring. :-) (Just kidding --) I
have long ranted against pet shops that sell only for profit, and people
that purchase fish without first doing research. The mindset is that "they
are just fish" and are meant for decoration. The truth is that they are live
animals and make wonderful pets. That's why I have always appreciated people
like you and the others in these newsgroups and in the internet forums that
are available to give and receive advice --

--Mark

The ".Edu" meens i are smart




> cheers
> --
> www.NetMax.tk
>

[Koi-lo]

"Mark Stone" > wrote in message
...
That's why I have always appreciated people
> like you and the others in these newsgroups and in the internet forums
> that are available to give and receive advice --
========================
There should be a law of some kind to force pet stores to give out free
brochures on basic fish care with each purchase. Many people don't realize
they'll kill their fish when they get them home and put them in a fishbowl
or tank of chlorinated water. After retirement I worked part-time for a few
weeks in a local pet store. The ignorance of the average person coming in
for a few guppies or a goldfish for the kiddies was astounding for this day
and age.
--
--
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastadaisy
~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>

[Cichlidiot]

In alt.aquaria NetMax > wrote:
: For most LFS, same order as above (and what does that say about their
: procedures?).

: For an established tank, or in experienced hands, the sequence seems to
: reverse around the middle.
: #6 disease through old age
: #5 equipment failure
: #3 overfeeding and/or poor maintenance
: #4 death from tank-mates
: #2 disease through contagions
: #1 water shock

: I'd guess #4 is higher in mbuna tanks, and #2 is higher for anyone buying
: fish.

Actually, I'd list another cause for established tanks: poor tap water
quality. I don't know about other people, but almost every mysterious
disease/death incident I've had that's not in a quarentine tank (I quarentine
all new fish for a month) has been after a water change. Typically, a month
or two down the line I'll get a little notice from the water company that
goes "oh, by the way, back in February we detected high bacterial levels in
the water but decided to do nothing about it". By then the tank has either
stabilized or been lost. I've talked to other people in that town who also
experienced fish deaths around the same time after doing water changes. My
biggest "wish list" item for my fish while I'm looking for a new place is to
find one with enough room for a water pretreatment storage tank, so I can
run a UV filter, chemical media and what-not on the tap water before adding
it to my tanks. That town has definately taught me that the water municipality
cannot always be trusted to keep the water safe.

[Cichlidiot]

In alt.aquaria Koi-lo > wrote:

: There should be a law of some kind to force pet stores to give out free
: brochures on basic fish care with each purchase. Many people don't realize
: they'll kill their fish when they get them home and put them in a fishbowl
: or tank of chlorinated water. After retirement I worked part-time for a few
: weeks in a local pet store. The ignorance of the average person coming in
: for a few guppies or a goldfish for the kiddies was astounding for this day
: and age.

There actually is such a law in California. All pets including fish have to
be sent home with a care sheet. The sheet is basically just two sides of a
standard 8x11 piece of paper though, so it's the bare essentials. And there's
no forcing people to actually read it and follow it. Actually talking to
people before selling and make sure they're the type who would read and follow
the care sheet might help, but I don't see big chain stores taking that sort
of time (or not selling something).

[Koi-lo]

"Cichlidiot" > wrote in message
...
> In alt.aquaria Koi-lo > wrote:
>
> : There should be a law of some kind to force pet stores to give out free
> : brochures on basic fish care with each purchase. Many people don't
> realize
> : they'll kill their fish when they get them home and put them in a
> fishbowl
> : or tank of chlorinated water. After retirement I worked part-time for a
> few
> : weeks in a local pet store. The ignorance of the average person coming
> in
> : for a few guppies or a goldfish for the kiddies was astounding for this
> day
> : and age.
>
> There actually is such a law in California. All pets including fish have
> to
> be sent home with a care sheet. The sheet is basically just two sides of a
> standard 8x11 piece of paper though, so it's the bare essentials.

$$ It sure is better than nothing. Here they give you nothing. Unless you
go to a specialty aquarium store all the salespeople are clueless.

And there's
> no forcing people to actually read it and follow it. Actually talking to
> people before selling and make sure they're the type who would read and
> follow
> the care sheet might help, but I don't see big chain stores taking that
> sort
> of time (or not selling something).

$$ I agree with you there.......
--
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastadaisy
~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>

[A Man]

On Sat, 12 Nov 2005 09:16:39 -0500 in article <dPmdf.5314$Tk1.119429
@news20.bellglobal.com>, spoke thusly...
> Does anyone want to try their hand at listing the causes of death for
> aquarium fish, in order?

You didn't mention ammonia or nitrite poisoning. You'd be surprised how many
beginners don't know what cycling is or how to do it properly. I think that
is #1 cause of death for beginners.
>
> For a new tank or in novice hands
> #1 water shock
> #2 disease through contagions
> #3 overfeeding and/or poor maintenance
> #4 death from tank-mates
> #5 equipment failure
> #6 disease through old age
>


--
Sig: Say no to fixed width HTML tables. They look terrible in most browsers.

[Mark Stone]

"Cichlidiot" > wrote in message
...
> In alt.aquaria Koi-lo > wrote:
>
> : There should be a law of some kind to force pet stores to give out free
> : brochures on basic fish care with each purchase. Many people don't
> realize
> : they'll kill their fish when they get them home and put them in a
> fishbowl
> : or tank of chlorinated water. After retirement I worked part-time for a
> few
> : weeks in a local pet store. The ignorance of the average person coming
> in
> : for a few guppies or a goldfish for the kiddies was astounding for this
> day
> : and age.
>
> There actually is such a law in California. All pets including fish have
> to
> be sent home with a care sheet. The sheet is basically just two sides of a
> standard 8x11 piece of paper though, so it's the bare essentials. And
> there's
> no forcing people to actually read it and follow it. Actually talking to
> people before selling and make sure they're the type who would read and
> follow
> the care sheet might help, but I don't see big chain stores taking that
> sort
> of time (or not selling something).

Generally, however, that isn't the issue. Information about proper care for
fishes is widely available, whether at the LFS, or at the library, or on the
internet. The problem is that most people think of aquarium fish as
decorations rather than pets. They care if dogs or cats are mistreated, but
with aquaria they have the thought "only fish" -- The perception that fish
are live, conscious animals is what's missing. --Mark

[Gill Passman]

Mark Stone wrote:
> "Cichlidiot" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>In alt.aquaria Koi-lo > wrote:
>>
>>: There should be a law of some kind to force pet stores to give out free
>>: brochures on basic fish care with each purchase. Many people don't
>>realize
>>: they'll kill their fish when they get them home and put them in a
>>fishbowl
>>: or tank of chlorinated water. After retirement I worked part-time for a
>>few
>>: weeks in a local pet store. The ignorance of the average person coming
>>in
>>: for a few guppies or a goldfish for the kiddies was astounding for this
>>day
>>: and age.
>>
>>There actually is such a law in California. All pets including fish have
>>to
>>be sent home with a care sheet. The sheet is basically just two sides of a
>>standard 8x11 piece of paper though, so it's the bare essentials. And
>>there's
>>no forcing people to actually read it and follow it. Actually talking to
>>people before selling and make sure they're the type who would read and
>>follow
>>the care sheet might help, but I don't see big chain stores taking that
>>sort
>>of time (or not selling something).
>
>
> Generally, however, that isn't the issue. Information about proper care for
> fishes is widely available, whether at the LFS, or at the library, or on the
> internet. The problem is that most people think of aquarium fish as
> decorations rather than pets. They care if dogs or cats are mistreated, but
> with aquaria they have the thought "only fish" -- The perception that fish
> are live, conscious animals is what's missing. --Mark
>
>
I think you've probably hit the nail on the head....there is the thought
out there that they are "only fish". But also to the other extreme there
is also the thought that they are "too much work" - now the people who
believe that they are too much work are the ones that if they did take
the plunge would be responsible fish owners. On the otherhand by
recognising that maintaining a tank full of living creatures does take
time and maybe not for them, however attractive it looks, shows that
there are people out there who are responsible - I know quite a few who
look at my tanks and decide that although they would like the fish they
don't want the work. Bit like having the sense not to buy the fluffy
puppy because you don't have time to walk it...

Gill

[NetMax]

"A Man" > wrote in message
reenews.net...
> On Sat, 12 Nov 2005 09:16:39 -0500 in article <dPmdf.5314$Tk1.119429
> @news20.bellglobal.com>, spoke thusly...
>> Does anyone want to try their hand at listing the causes of death for
>> aquarium fish, in order?
>
> You didn't mention ammonia or nitrite poisoning. You'd be surprised how
> many
> beginners don't know what cycling is or how to do it properly. I think
> that
> is #1 cause of death for beginners.

I was thinking that water toxins would be classified under poor
maintenance (ability to keep the water from getting toxic), but you're
probably right in that it should stand alone.
--
www.NetMax.tk

>>
>> For a new tank or in novice hands
>> #1 water shock
>> #2 disease through contagions
>> #3 overfeeding and/or poor maintenance
>> #4 death from tank-mates
>> #5 equipment failure
>> #6 disease through old age
>>
>
>
> --
> Sig: Say no to fixed width HTML tables. They look terrible in most
> browsers.

[Fallout]

"NetMax" > wrote in message
.. .
> Does anyone want to try their hand at listing the causes of death for
> aquarium fish, in order?
>
> For a new tank or in novice hands
> #1 water shock
> #2 disease through contagions
> #3 overfeeding and/or poor maintenance
> #4 death from tank-mates
> #5 equipment failure
> #6 disease through old age
>
> For most LFS, same order as above (and what does that say about their
> procedures?).
>
> For an established tank, or in experienced hands, the sequence seems to
> reverse around the middle.
> #6 disease through old age
> #5 equipment failure
> #3 overfeeding and/or poor maintenance
> #4 death from tank-mates
> #2 disease through contagions
> #1 water shock
>
> I'd guess #4 is higher in mbuna tanks, and #2 is higher for anyone buying
> fish.
> --
> www.NetMax.tk

This is pretty pedantic of me - but if you think of all the
livebearer/cichlid fry that get eaten (and others), then predation is
probably the greatest killer of aquarium fish in experienced hands.

I'll go back to ironing my socks now.

-Jon

[NetMax]

"Fallout" > wrote in message
...
>
> "NetMax" > wrote in message
> .. .
>> Does anyone want to try their hand at listing the causes of death for
>> aquarium fish, in order?
>>
>> For a new tank or in novice hands
>> #1 water shock
>> #2 disease through contagions
>> #3 overfeeding and/or poor maintenance
>> #4 death from tank-mates
>> #5 equipment failure
>> #6 disease through old age
>>
>> For most LFS, same order as above (and what does that say about their
>> procedures?).
>>
>> For an established tank, or in experienced hands, the sequence seems
>> to reverse around the middle.
>> #6 disease through old age
>> #5 equipment failure
>> #3 overfeeding and/or poor maintenance
>> #4 death from tank-mates
>> #2 disease through contagions
>> #1 water shock
>>
>> I'd guess #4 is higher in mbuna tanks, and #2 is higher for anyone
>> buying fish.
>> --
>> www.NetMax.tk
>
> This is pretty pedantic of me - but if you think of all the
> livebearer/cichlid fry that get eaten (and others), then predation is
> probably the greatest killer of aquarium fish in experienced hands.
>
> I'll go back to ironing my socks now.
>
> -Jon


technicality :p

;o)
--
www.NetMax.tk

[Lukasz Marzec]

My fish is small and very very bad,it`s a shark!!!!!!SMALL SHARK because
have big eye.How many very small fish is great for my pussy Shark.
Uzytkownik "Gill Passman" > napisal w
wiadomosci .. .
> NetMax wrote:
> > Does anyone want to try their hand at listing the causes of death for
> > aquarium fish, in order?
> >
> > For a new tank or in novice hands
> > #1 water shock
> > #2 disease through contagions
> > #3 overfeeding and/or poor maintenance
> > #4 death from tank-mates
> > #5 equipment failure
> > #6 disease through old age
> >
> > For most LFS, same order as above (and what does that say about their
> > procedures?).
> >
> > For an established tank, or in experienced hands, the sequence seems to
> > reverse around the middle.
> > #6 disease through old age
> > #5 equipment failure
> > #3 overfeeding and/or poor maintenance
> > #4 death from tank-mates
> > #2 disease through contagions
> > #1 water shock
> >
> > I'd guess #4 is higher in mbuna tanks, and #2 is higher for anyone
buying
> > fish.
>
> Most likely cause of death in my Mbuna tank is most certainly #4 and
> also possibly starvation when the females are holding - lost a yellow
> lab this way :-( - she died/was murdered shortly after releasing the fry.
>
> Other than the Mbunas the majority of deaths that I have are new fish
> dying shortly after purchase for whatever reason...
>
> Gill