PH question

[fish lover]

My 125 g tank has 7.2 Ph level, which is not really good for the
discus. I'm tring very hard to keep it about bit under 7.0. Every time
I add some Ph down, it shows ok for a day. Next day, it goes up again.
I had a small amount of peat in my filter system and it did not really
do that much for me. I change 30% of water every 3 - 4 days. Each time
I change water, I had to use Ph down to bring the tap water a bit
under 7.0. I think the tap water is about 7.2.

Any easy way to keep Ph at 7.0 or under? I don't know the hardness of
my water. Never had a chance to test it and even if I do, what can I
do about it anyway?

I really don't like the idea of adding Ph down to the water almost
every day. Besides the cost, I don't think it is good for the fish.

Thanks

[NetMax]

"fish lover" > wrote in message
...
> My 125 g tank has 7.2 Ph level, which is not really good for the
> discus. I'm tring very hard to keep it about bit under 7.0. Every time
> I add some Ph down, it shows ok for a day. Next day, it goes up again.
> I had a small amount of peat in my filter system and it did not really
> do that much for me. I change 30% of water every 3 - 4 days. Each time
> I change water, I had to use Ph down to bring the tap water a bit
> under 7.0. I think the tap water is about 7.2.
>
> Any easy way to keep Ph at 7.0 or under? I don't know the hardness of
> my water. Never had a chance to test it and even if I do, what can I
> do about it anyway?
>
> I really don't like the idea of adding Ph down to the water almost
> every day. Besides the cost, I don't think it is good for the fish.
>
> Thanks

I think the key will be to test your hardness (gH) and your buffer (kH).
While it is true that your gH will probably be whatever it is, a low gH
can be very important for keeping Discus, especially in non-optimal pH
conditions.

Your kH level will indicate how malleable your water will be to
acidifying influences (dropping the pH), and help define your strategy by
indicating how effective different methods will be. If your kH is below
3 or 4dkH, then it should not be a problem dropping the pH (though there
is still the question if the effort is indeed warranted, especially if
your gH is low).

If your kH is higher (ie: above 6dkH), then your natural water source
will resist your efforts, so you have to plan accordingly, using more
persuasive methods (if you wanted to proceed). Popular strategies are RO
or DI dilution, peat or oak and/or CO2 gas. Using pH down, mopani wood,
blackwater extract and other acidifiers will only be marginally
effective, due to water changes.

If you kH is even higher, then the approach will expand on the above
strategies, possibly using a holding tank so your water is prepared in
advance (eliminating the water shock on the fish).

In a 125g tank, there are more options, and marginal solutions can be
made much more effective (such as stacking mopani wood in there ;~).
However before proceeding, you really need to know the natural pH, gH and
kH (test a glass of water after standing for 24 hours), and assess the
condition of your fish in 7.2pH (which might be absolutely fine), and
evaluate how similar the water was from where they originated (very
important as wild caught will be much more particular than local-bred
Discus). It's not unusual for Discus to acclimate to 7.4pH and even much
higher (but less frequently and they need to be born into similar water).

Also note, that stress signs from Discus can easily come from diet (they
are like picky children), competition for food (they like grazing),
moving objects in the tank (similar effect as Oscars do), poor tank-mates
(too busy or predatory), too many horizontal obstructions (they like
vertical stuff), and water too cold - rather than it being too high a pH.
--
www.NetMax.tk

[Jim Anderson]

In article >,
says...
> My 125 g tank has 7.2 Ph level, which is not really good for the
> discus. I'm tring very hard to keep it about bit under 7.0. Every time
> I add some Ph down, it shows ok for a day. Next day, it goes up again.
> I had a small amount of peat in my filter system and it did not really
> do that much for me. I change 30% of water every 3 - 4 days. Each time
> I change water, I had to use Ph down to bring the tap water a bit
> under 7.0. I think the tap water is about 7.2.
>
> Any easy way to keep Ph at 7.0 or under? I don't know the hardness of
> my water. Never had a chance to test it and even if I do, what can I
> do about it anyway?
>
> I really don't like the idea of adding Ph down to the water almost
> every day. Besides the cost, I don't think it is good for the fish.
>
> Thanks
>

I installed an RO unit when I got the Discus fever. I was surprized
(uneducated) that my 8.0PH tap water came out as 8.0PH from the RO, but
the GH went from 300ppm to undetectable. The local breeder had the same
water so I got 6 at 1 inch diameter. They were the first fish I ever
purchased that did not get ick the day after I baught them. They started
breeding at about 6 months (~4.5 inches) and every two weeks after that
(community tank caviar). They never got sick or distressed. I think your
PH @ 7.2 will be healthier for them than dumping all those chemicals in
the water.

Of coarse, that's just my opinion, and seeing many of your posts over
the years, I'm sure you know what you are doing.

Wishing you well.
--
Jim Anderson
( 8(|) To eMail me, just pull "my_finger"

[Mean_Chlorine]

Thusly fish lover > Spake Unto All:

>My 125 g tank has 7.2 Ph level, which is not really good for the
>discus.

Your discus have zero problem with that pH. I know breeders who have
pH's in excess of 8.
Don't worry, be happy - that water's fine for them.

[NetMax]

"fish lover" > wrote in message
...
> Thanks guys for the answers.
>
> I just did a test of my tap water and it was at PH 7.0
>
> Now my question becomes, what makes the PH level go up in my tank?
> After a day or so of water change, it goes to 7.2 and I had to use PH
> down to keep fighting it. I don't know if the ph will go up higher
> without the PH down added almost every day.
>
> I have some plants in the tank and change 30% water about every 3 days
> or so. I even have small amount of peat in the filter system which I
> change every month.

Did you let your water sample age for a day? Dissolved gases in
municipal water (including CO2) will make your tap pH lower than it
really is. After being aired out, the CO2 leaves and your pH rises.

Alternately, you have something making your water less acidic, either
neutralizing the acids, or adding alkalines (usually in the form of
minerals leeching calcium in an aquarium). Some mineral sources are
gravel, sand and many types of rockwork. Take a sample of every mineral
you have, let it dry and drip some pH-down on it. If the pH-down fizzes
(reactive), then the mineral is leeching carbonates into the water.
--
www.NetMax.tk

[NetMax]

"Mean_Chlorine" > wrote in message
...
> Thusly fish lover > Spake Unto All:
>
>>Thanks, I think you just found the problem for me. I have many shells
>>in hte tank and they kind of 'rusting' away after a while. That maybe
>>the problem. I'm going to take them out at my next water change.
>
> Yeah, that's the reason for your pH moving to 7.5.
>
> Personally I still think you should leave them in - your discus are
> much happier in a steady 7.5 than fluctuating 6.5.


I would tend to agree. Without knowing what your buffer is, at least
with the shells, they are providing some buffering, stabilizing the pH.
If you measure and find that your buffer is high, then remove the shells.

Also note that adding RO water will dilute your buffer (kH), and if the
buffer gets too low, your pH can drop very dramatically. This is known
as a pH crash. This can be very bad for fish, creating a vicious circle
of wiping out your bacteria, and then poisoning the fish when the pH is
restored as the ammonia goes from NH4 to NH3.

http://faq.thekrib.com/begin-chem.html and scroll down to Buffering
Capacity. Just trying to keep you informed.
--
www.NetMax.tk

[fish lover]

On Sun, 13 Nov 2005 02:23:44 GMT, Jim Anderson
> wrote:

>In article >,
says...
>> My 125 g tank has 7.2 Ph level, which is not really good for the
>> discus. I'm tring very hard to keep it about bit under 7.0. Every time
>> I add some Ph down, it shows ok for a day. Next day, it goes up again.
>> I had a small amount of peat in my filter system and it did not really
>> do that much for me. I change 30% of water every 3 - 4 days. Each time
>> I change water, I had to use Ph down to bring the tap water a bit
>> under 7.0. I think the tap water is about 7.2.
>>
>> Any easy way to keep Ph at 7.0 or under? I don't know the hardness of
>> my water. Never had a chance to test it and even if I do, what can I
>> do about it anyway?
>>
>> I really don't like the idea of adding Ph down to the water almost
>> every day. Besides the cost, I don't think it is good for the fish.
>>
>> Thanks
>>
>
>I installed an RO unit when I got the Discus fever. I was surprized
>(uneducated) that my 8.0PH tap water came out as 8.0PH from the RO, but
>the GH went from 300ppm to undetectable. The local breeder had the same
>water so I got 6 at 1 inch diameter. They were the first fish I ever
>purchased that did not get ick the day after I baught them. They started
>breeding at about 6 months (~4.5 inches) and every two weeks after that
>(community tank caviar). They never got sick or distressed. I think your
>PH @ 7.2 will be healthier for them than dumping all those chemicals in
>the water.
>
>Of coarse, that's just my opinion, and seeing many of your posts over
>the years, I'm sure you know what you are doing.
>
>Wishing you well.

Thanks advise. Maybe I should just leave the ph as is.

I was thinking about install the RO unit for a while. The problem is,
anything out there can only produce water very slowly, about 10 g per
hour. I have to change about 40 g of water about 45 minutes. Waiting
that long for RO water is impossible for me. Do you know if there are
anything out there you can attach to the tap and purify the water with
good speed?

[fish lover]

Thanks guys for the answers.

I just did a test of my tap water and it was at PH 7.0

Now my question becomes, what makes the PH level go up in my tank?
After a day or so of water change, it goes to 7.2 and I had to use PH
down to keep fighting it. I don't know if the ph will go up higher
without the PH down added almost every day.

I have some plants in the tank and change 30% water about every 3 days
or so. I even have small amount of peat in the filter system which I
change every month.

[Richard]

I have never used an RO unit myself but my understanding is that you would
run it continuously into a collection vessel, depending on your set up
anything up to hundred of gallons, and then use water from the collector for
your changes. Not just run it at the time of the change.

Cheers

Richard

"fish lover" > wrote in message
...
> On Sun, 13 Nov 2005 02:23:44 GMT, Jim Anderson
> > wrote:
>
> >In article >,
> says...
> >> My 125 g tank has 7.2 Ph level, which is not really good for the
> >> discus. I'm tring very hard to keep it about bit under 7.0. Every time
> >> I add some Ph down, it shows ok for a day. Next day, it goes up again.
> >> I had a small amount of peat in my filter system and it did not really
> >> do that much for me. I change 30% of water every 3 - 4 days. Each time
> >> I change water, I had to use Ph down to bring the tap water a bit
> >> under 7.0. I think the tap water is about 7.2.
> >>
> >> Any easy way to keep Ph at 7.0 or under? I don't know the hardness of
> >> my water. Never had a chance to test it and even if I do, what can I
> >> do about it anyway?
> >>
> >> I really don't like the idea of adding Ph down to the water almost
> >> every day. Besides the cost, I don't think it is good for the fish.
> >>
> >> Thanks
> >>
> >
> >I installed an RO unit when I got the Discus fever. I was surprized
> >(uneducated) that my 8.0PH tap water came out as 8.0PH from the RO, but
> >the GH went from 300ppm to undetectable. The local breeder had the same
> >water so I got 6 at 1 inch diameter. They were the first fish I ever
> >purchased that did not get ick the day after I baught them. They started
> >breeding at about 6 months (~4.5 inches) and every two weeks after that
> >(community tank caviar). They never got sick or distressed. I think your
> >PH @ 7.2 will be healthier for them than dumping all those chemicals in
> >the water.
> >
> >Of coarse, that's just my opinion, and seeing many of your posts over
> >the years, I'm sure you know what you are doing.
> >
> >Wishing you well.
>
> Thanks advise. Maybe I should just leave the ph as is.
>
> I was thinking about install the RO unit for a while. The problem is,
> anything out there can only produce water very slowly, about 10 g per
> hour. I have to change about 40 g of water about 45 minutes. Waiting
> that long for RO water is impossible for me. Do you know if there are
> anything out there you can attach to the tap and purify the water with
> good speed?

[Steve]

fish lover wrote:
> Thanks guys for the answers.
>
> I just did a test of my tap water and it was at PH 7.0
>
> Now my question becomes, what makes the PH level go up in my tank?
> After a day or so of water change, it goes to 7.2 and I had to use PH
> down to keep fighting it.

It sounds like you may have some limestone or other carbonate in the
aquarium system. That would dissolve and buffer the water to a higher
pH, which is not a bad thing.
Steve

[Mean_Chlorine]

Thusly fish lover > Spake Unto All:

>Now my question becomes, what makes the PH level go up in my tank?

Limestone. In all probability you have limestone (e.g. coral,
limestone-containing sand, shells...) in the tank, and when the pH is
lower than 7.5 they'll dissolve, neutralize acid, and drive the pH to
7.5.

Also, most "pH-down" type products are based on various mixes of
phosphoric acid reaction products, and will give you problems with
algae if you keep dosing it (due to phosphate build-up - although the
actual product named "pH down" is, I believe phosphate free, and based
on another acid).

Personally I'd live happily ever after with a pH of 7.5 if I were you.
pH is the single most overrated parameter in all of aquaristics, and
having a stable pH is far more important than having "the right" pH.

[fish lover]

Thanks, I think you just found the problem for me. I have many shells
in hte tank and they kind of 'rusting' away after a while. That maybe
the problem. I'm going to take them out at my next water change.

[Mean_Chlorine]

Thusly fish lover > Spake Unto All:

>Thanks, I think you just found the problem for me. I have many shells
>in hte tank and they kind of 'rusting' away after a while. That maybe
>the problem. I'm going to take them out at my next water change.

Yeah, that's the reason for your pH moving to 7.5.

Personally I still think you should leave them in - your discus are
much happier in a steady 7.5 than fluctuating 6.5.

[fish lover]

On Mon, 14 Nov 2005 08:59:43 +1300, "Richard" > wrote:
I just found a OMNIFileter from WalMart this aafternoon. It has the
output of 5 g per minute, which is bit slow but not that bad. It can
handle 15,000 g per filter change. I can attach it to my tap and give
it a try for my next water change. For $27, I think it may not be a
bad idea. It can last me for 300 water changes, which is about 10
months. I think the filter media costs about $23.

I don't have a place to set up for collecting water. I have a young
kid and it will not be a good idea to have the water around in the
house anyway.

I think other people here found out my problem for me. I have lots of
shells in my tank and they can drive up my PH level to 7.5. That's why
my PH down never work for more than a day.

Thanks

>I have never used an RO unit myself but my understanding is that you would
>run it continuously into a collection vessel, depending on your set up
>anything up to hundred of gallons, and then use water from the collector for
>your changes. Not just run it at the time of the change.
>
>Cheers
>
>Richard
>
>"fish lover" > wrote in message
...
>> On Sun, 13 Nov 2005 02:23:44 GMT, Jim Anderson
>> > wrote:
>>
>> >In article >,
>> says...
>> >> My 125 g tank has 7.2 Ph level, which is not really good for the
>> >> discus. I'm tring very hard to keep it about bit under 7.0. Every time
>> >> I add some Ph down, it shows ok for a day. Next day, it goes up again.
>> >> I had a small amount of peat in my filter system and it did not really
>> >> do that much for me. I change 30% of water every 3 - 4 days. Each time
>> >> I change water, I had to use Ph down to bring the tap water a bit
>> >> under 7.0. I think the tap water is about 7.2.
>> >>
>> >> Any easy way to keep Ph at 7.0 or under? I don't know the hardness of
>> >> my water. Never had a chance to test it and even if I do, what can I
>> >> do about it anyway?
>> >>
>> >> I really don't like the idea of adding Ph down to the water almost
>> >> every day. Besides the cost, I don't think it is good for the fish.
>> >>
>> >> Thanks
>> >>
>> >
>> >I installed an RO unit when I got the Discus fever. I was surprized
>> >(uneducated) that my 8.0PH tap water came out as 8.0PH from the RO, but
>> >the GH went from 300ppm to undetectable. The local breeder had the same
>> >water so I got 6 at 1 inch diameter. They were the first fish I ever
>> >purchased that did not get ick the day after I baught them. They started
>> >breeding at about 6 months (~4.5 inches) and every two weeks after that
>> >(community tank caviar). They never got sick or distressed. I think your
>> >PH @ 7.2 will be healthier for them than dumping all those chemicals in
>> >the water.
>> >
>> >Of coarse, that's just my opinion, and seeing many of your posts over
>> >the years, I'm sure you know what you are doing.
>> >
>> >Wishing you well.
>>
>> Thanks advise. Maybe I should just leave the ph as is.
>>
>> I was thinking about install the RO unit for a while. The problem is,
>> anything out there can only produce water very slowly, about 10 g per
>> hour. I have to change about 40 g of water about 45 minutes. Waiting
>> that long for RO water is impossible for me. Do you know if there are
>> anything out there you can attach to the tap and purify the water with
>> good speed?
>

[fish lover]

On Sun, 13 Nov 2005 08:58:35 -0500, "NetMax"
> wrote:

>"Mean_Chlorine" > wrote in message
...
>> Thusly fish lover > Spake Unto All:
>>
>>>Thanks, I think you just found the problem for me. I have many shells
>>>in hte tank and they kind of 'rusting' away after a while. That maybe
>>>the problem. I'm going to take them out at my next water change.
>>
>> Yeah, that's the reason for your pH moving to 7.5.
>>
>> Personally I still think you should leave them in - your discus are
>> much happier in a steady 7.5 than fluctuating 6.5.
>
>
>I would tend to agree. Without knowing what your buffer is, at least
>with the shells, they are providing some buffering, stabilizing the pH.
>If you measure and find that your buffer is high, then remove the shells.
>
>Also note that adding RO water will dilute your buffer (kH), and if the
>buffer gets too low, your pH can drop very dramatically. This is known
>as a pH crash. This can be very bad for fish, creating a vicious circle
>of wiping out your bacteria, and then poisoning the fish when the pH is
>restored as the ammonia goes from NH4 to NH3.
>
>http://faq.thekrib.com/begin-chem.html and scroll down to Buffering
>Capacity. Just trying to keep you informed.


I think I have a plan:

I took your advise and did a test of my tap water after let it air out
for a day. You are right about the Co2 in the water makes it read
lower in ph. After a day, it was at 7.2. I guess that will be my local
water ph level. I'm going to take out all the shells in the tank. I
just noticed there were only few big ones left anyway, the rest melt
away over the last few weeks. Since my tap water is about 7.2, and I
think I should be able to maintain 7.0 by adding some ph downs at
water change. I don't think it will bounce back once I take out the
shells.
I was worried the PH level could go higher than 7.5 because it kept
going up and I was fighting to get it down. Not realizing that the
shells were trying to keep it at 7.5
I also went on eBay to trying to get a large pice of driftwood. I
think it will look nice in the tank and provide some way to lower the
ph level a bit. Maybe I don't need to add ph down after I got the
driftwood treated. That will be in few weeks.

I'm not going to add RO water. The OMNIFilter I bought from WalMart is
only good for filter out sediment partials, not good enough as RO
filter at all. I guess I learn something new today. I'm going to
return it since there is no use to do that with fish water.

Thanks for the help.