Daniel Morrow
November 14th 05, 01:19 AM
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Mid posted.
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"Daniel Morrow" > wrote in message news:...
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> Bottom posted.
>
> - --
> You can find my public key at https://keyserver1.pgp.com
> "NetMax" > wrote in message
> ...
> > "Dick" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > > On Sat, 12 Nov 2005 09:16:39 -0500, "NetMax"
> > > > wrote:
> > >
> > >>Does anyone want to try their hand at listing the causes of death
> for
> > >>aquarium fish, in order?
> > >>
> > >>For a new tank or in novice hands
> > >>#1 water shock
> > >>#2 disease through contagions
> > >>#3 overfeeding and/or poor maintenance
> > >>#4 death from tank-mates
> > >>#5 equipment failure
> > >>#6 disease through old age
> > >>
> > >>For most LFS, same order as above (and what does that say about
> their
> > >>procedures?).
> > >>
> > >>For an established tank, or in experienced hands, the sequence
> seems to
> > >>reverse around the middle.
> > >>#6 disease through old age
> > >>#5 equipment failure
> > >>#3 overfeeding and/or poor maintenance
> > >>#4 death from tank-mates
> > >>#2 disease through contagions
> > >>#1 water shock
> > >>
> > >>I'd guess #4 is higher in mbuna tanks, and #2 is higher for
> anyone
> > >>buying
> > >>fish.
> > >
> > >
> > > I would sort by species. Black Mollies being first to die of
> assorted
> > > problems.
> > >
> > > Live bearers after first year seem to die from assorted
> problems.
> > > Dropsy and swim bladder diseases among live bearers.
> > >
> > > Non live bearers seem to be disease free and longer lived.
> > >
> > > I have never lost a new fish and they all were shipped overnight
> > > deliveries. Exception, 6 Clown Loaches arrived with heavy ich.
> The
> > > vendor acknowledge it was his problem. I destroyed all but 2
> which
> > > are doing well after over 2 years along with their 6 replacements
> and
> > > 3 from earlier purchase.
> > >
> > > Death due to poor handling, I fried a bunch with acid while
> adjusting
> > > pH.
> > >
> > > I have lost 2 plecos within first 6 months. No obvious cause of
> > > death.
> > >
> > > I am curious why live bearers are so shorter lived and disease
> prone?
> > > They share the same conditions as the non live bearers.
> >
> > When I was in the trade, I had very high losses with livebearers,
> so I
> > complained to my importers who were also hobbyists. They told me
> that I
> > needed to buy freshwater livebearers, not the regular fish, but
> that the
> > freshwater livebearers were much more expensive and not always
> available.
> > Here is the story:
> >
> > Commercial farms are always looking for inexpensive ways to reduce
> the
> > amount of diseases in their system (imagine row after row of
> 50,000g to
> > 200,000g ponds). Treating an entire pond of fish with antibiotics
> is not
> > an option for them. The hotter the water is, the less bacteria will
>
> > survive, so this is one method which can be used effectively
> indoors or
> > in greenhouses (and to a lesser degree outside). The higher
> temperatures
> > also causes the fish to 'artificially' grow very quickly, if an
> > appropriate diet is maintained. Salty water will also prevent
> many
> > diseases, but not all fish can tolerate high levels of salt.
> Livebearers
> > can, so commercially raised livebearers are born and raised in hot
> salty
> > water.
> >
> > Then they are shipped to the LFS where they are dropped into cold
> > freshwater (much colder than they are accustomed to). At this
> point the
> > fish begin to react from water-shock, beoming particularly
> suceptible to
> > diseases such as Columnaris. If they survive the transistion,
> their live
> > expectancy is significantly shortened, to the point that I would
> advise
> > customers to raise the fry and not concern themselves with the fact
> that
> > the adults only live 6 months. Their fry appear to be perfectly
> > acclimated to the cooler freshwater they were born into.
> >
> > The cost increase was about 20%, so I immediately switched over
> (this is
> > really not a big increase considering the mark-up on fish).
> However I
> > had a shipment of 'regular' livebearers coming from Thailand, so I
> set up
> > 2 banks of tanks (18 x 20g tank partitions) with 100% water change
> and
> > mixed in the salt levels I was told were being used (I can't recall
> the
> > level, but it would be in an earlier post of mine). The difference
> in
> > losses was night & day (something like 1.5%). All of my staff were
>
> > commenting on the improvement. The only problem was that I had to
> sell
> > them as brackish water fish, and it took me several weeks to slowly
> bring
> > the salt levels down. I'm not entirely sure how effective it was
> > reducing the salt gradually. My losses were very low, and many of
> the
> > fish got sold (with instruction on salt concentration and how
> quickly to
> > reduce it), but my statistics are limited to until they got sold,
> so I
> > don't know if their overall life expectancy was improved.
> >
> > I then started receiving 'freshwater' livebearers (primarily
> Guppies
> > which were the most affected, and I still had lots of Platys &
> > Swordtails, - and Mollys I always treat as brackish anyways) which
> I kept
> > on the other side of the room. They seemed to have a very normal
> > mortality level, which was great.
> >
> > > After first year, survival of the fittest settled in. After 3
> years I
> > > see individual fish become mishappened, fungus come and go,
> periods of
> > > hiding, but month after month my stock remains stable.
> > >
> > > I haven't bought any new fish in the last 2 years.
> >
> > I'm going on 1.5 years, with one loss, and if more don't die soon,
>
> > they're going to grow me out of house & home ;~).
> >
> > Sorry for the long post Dick, but you did ask, and I try to be
> thorough
> > :o)
> > --
> > www.NetMax.tk
> >
> > >
> > > dick
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
> What I find interesting with my livebearer (my fancy guppies) is that
> for the first 6-12 months they needed no salt added to thrive, and
> now after that period of time (I am not complaining though and am
> happy that I have the solution of adding salt for my fancy guppies to
> be perfectly happy and I think healthy) they will not thrive even
> close to before without salt added. I suspect my strain of fancy
> guppies has gained a requirement of salt after stages of progressive
> generations (i.e. the requirement is genetic). It's interesting that
> my situation is the reverse of what netmax describes (i.e. fish
> showing up at a store requiring salt then after reproducing in
> freshwater there the descendants acclimate to freshwater with no
> salt), but I must say - a little salt added to the water makes me
> happy if it makes my fancy guppies thrive and be happy and I think
That is "I think healthy. Good luck all and later!"
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Hash: SHA1
Mid posted.
- --
You can find my public key at https://keyserver1.pgp.com
"Daniel Morrow" > wrote in message news:...
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
> Bottom posted.
>
> - --
> You can find my public key at https://keyserver1.pgp.com
> "NetMax" > wrote in message
> ...
> > "Dick" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > > On Sat, 12 Nov 2005 09:16:39 -0500, "NetMax"
> > > > wrote:
> > >
> > >>Does anyone want to try their hand at listing the causes of death
> for
> > >>aquarium fish, in order?
> > >>
> > >>For a new tank or in novice hands
> > >>#1 water shock
> > >>#2 disease through contagions
> > >>#3 overfeeding and/or poor maintenance
> > >>#4 death from tank-mates
> > >>#5 equipment failure
> > >>#6 disease through old age
> > >>
> > >>For most LFS, same order as above (and what does that say about
> their
> > >>procedures?).
> > >>
> > >>For an established tank, or in experienced hands, the sequence
> seems to
> > >>reverse around the middle.
> > >>#6 disease through old age
> > >>#5 equipment failure
> > >>#3 overfeeding and/or poor maintenance
> > >>#4 death from tank-mates
> > >>#2 disease through contagions
> > >>#1 water shock
> > >>
> > >>I'd guess #4 is higher in mbuna tanks, and #2 is higher for
> anyone
> > >>buying
> > >>fish.
> > >
> > >
> > > I would sort by species. Black Mollies being first to die of
> assorted
> > > problems.
> > >
> > > Live bearers after first year seem to die from assorted
> problems.
> > > Dropsy and swim bladder diseases among live bearers.
> > >
> > > Non live bearers seem to be disease free and longer lived.
> > >
> > > I have never lost a new fish and they all were shipped overnight
> > > deliveries. Exception, 6 Clown Loaches arrived with heavy ich.
> The
> > > vendor acknowledge it was his problem. I destroyed all but 2
> which
> > > are doing well after over 2 years along with their 6 replacements
> and
> > > 3 from earlier purchase.
> > >
> > > Death due to poor handling, I fried a bunch with acid while
> adjusting
> > > pH.
> > >
> > > I have lost 2 plecos within first 6 months. No obvious cause of
> > > death.
> > >
> > > I am curious why live bearers are so shorter lived and disease
> prone?
> > > They share the same conditions as the non live bearers.
> >
> > When I was in the trade, I had very high losses with livebearers,
> so I
> > complained to my importers who were also hobbyists. They told me
> that I
> > needed to buy freshwater livebearers, not the regular fish, but
> that the
> > freshwater livebearers were much more expensive and not always
> available.
> > Here is the story:
> >
> > Commercial farms are always looking for inexpensive ways to reduce
> the
> > amount of diseases in their system (imagine row after row of
> 50,000g to
> > 200,000g ponds). Treating an entire pond of fish with antibiotics
> is not
> > an option for them. The hotter the water is, the less bacteria will
>
> > survive, so this is one method which can be used effectively
> indoors or
> > in greenhouses (and to a lesser degree outside). The higher
> temperatures
> > also causes the fish to 'artificially' grow very quickly, if an
> > appropriate diet is maintained. Salty water will also prevent
> many
> > diseases, but not all fish can tolerate high levels of salt.
> Livebearers
> > can, so commercially raised livebearers are born and raised in hot
> salty
> > water.
> >
> > Then they are shipped to the LFS where they are dropped into cold
> > freshwater (much colder than they are accustomed to). At this
> point the
> > fish begin to react from water-shock, beoming particularly
> suceptible to
> > diseases such as Columnaris. If they survive the transistion,
> their live
> > expectancy is significantly shortened, to the point that I would
> advise
> > customers to raise the fry and not concern themselves with the fact
> that
> > the adults only live 6 months. Their fry appear to be perfectly
> > acclimated to the cooler freshwater they were born into.
> >
> > The cost increase was about 20%, so I immediately switched over
> (this is
> > really not a big increase considering the mark-up on fish).
> However I
> > had a shipment of 'regular' livebearers coming from Thailand, so I
> set up
> > 2 banks of tanks (18 x 20g tank partitions) with 100% water change
> and
> > mixed in the salt levels I was told were being used (I can't recall
> the
> > level, but it would be in an earlier post of mine). The difference
> in
> > losses was night & day (something like 1.5%). All of my staff were
>
> > commenting on the improvement. The only problem was that I had to
> sell
> > them as brackish water fish, and it took me several weeks to slowly
> bring
> > the salt levels down. I'm not entirely sure how effective it was
> > reducing the salt gradually. My losses were very low, and many of
> the
> > fish got sold (with instruction on salt concentration and how
> quickly to
> > reduce it), but my statistics are limited to until they got sold,
> so I
> > don't know if their overall life expectancy was improved.
> >
> > I then started receiving 'freshwater' livebearers (primarily
> Guppies
> > which were the most affected, and I still had lots of Platys &
> > Swordtails, - and Mollys I always treat as brackish anyways) which
> I kept
> > on the other side of the room. They seemed to have a very normal
> > mortality level, which was great.
> >
> > > After first year, survival of the fittest settled in. After 3
> years I
> > > see individual fish become mishappened, fungus come and go,
> periods of
> > > hiding, but month after month my stock remains stable.
> > >
> > > I haven't bought any new fish in the last 2 years.
> >
> > I'm going on 1.5 years, with one loss, and if more don't die soon,
>
> > they're going to grow me out of house & home ;~).
> >
> > Sorry for the long post Dick, but you did ask, and I try to be
> thorough
> > :o)
> > --
> > www.NetMax.tk
> >
> > >
> > > dick
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
> What I find interesting with my livebearer (my fancy guppies) is that
> for the first 6-12 months they needed no salt added to thrive, and
> now after that period of time (I am not complaining though and am
> happy that I have the solution of adding salt for my fancy guppies to
> be perfectly happy and I think healthy) they will not thrive even
> close to before without salt added. I suspect my strain of fancy
> guppies has gained a requirement of salt after stages of progressive
> generations (i.e. the requirement is genetic). It's interesting that
> my situation is the reverse of what netmax describes (i.e. fish
> showing up at a store requiring salt then after reproducing in
> freshwater there the descendants acclimate to freshwater with no
> salt), but I must say - a little salt added to the water makes me
> happy if it makes my fancy guppies thrive and be happy and I think
That is "I think healthy. Good luck all and later!"
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