Heating requirements for a large tank

[NetMax]

"Bill Stock" > wrote in message
...
>I thought there was a thread a while back started by John, who wanted
>recommendations for a heater in a large tank. But I googled and could
>not find it.
>
> The tank in question has a radius of 34" and a depth of 24", but I'll
> likely keep the water at 18". This is roughly 200 gallons. I tried a
> couple of heater calculators on the web, one said 28W (LOL) and the
> other said 700W. I was hoping for less, but I imagine the 700 is close.
> Although the same calculator said I need 300-400 watts of light for my
> 55 gallon. My poor Cardinals would need sun glasses. :) I only want to
> raise the temp about 5° F on average.

If it wasn't a circle, I'd send you here
http://www.kernsanalysis.com/HeaterCalculator.cgi
but if you try it anyways, enter a set of dimensions, close to a square
which corresponds to the volume, and then it might be close. You lose
less on corners ;~) but more on the increased surface area, so it might
balance out.

My guess... hey... when filled, this is a 300g above-ground pond with a
6' diameter! I want pictures! My guess would be 500W actual, at least
600W installed (or 400W/500W at 18").
--
www.NetMax.tk

[Bill Stock]

I thought there was a thread a while back started by John, who wanted
recommendations for a heater in a large tank. But I googled and could not
find it.

The tank in question has a radius of 34" and a depth of 24", but I'll likely
keep the water at 18". This is roughly 200 gallons. I tried a couple of
heater calculators on the web, one said 28W (LOL) and the other said 700W. I
was hoping for less, but I imagine the 700 is close. Although the same
calculator said I need 300-400 watts of light for my 55 gallon. My poor
Cardinals would need sun glasses. :) I only want to raise the temp about 5°
F on average.

[Dick]

On Sun, 13 Nov 2005 21:01:01 -0500, "Bill Stock" >
wrote:

>I thought there was a thread a while back started by John, who wanted
>recommendations for a heater in a large tank. But I googled and could not
>find it.
>
>The tank in question has a radius of 34" and a depth of 24", but I'll likely
>keep the water at 18". This is roughly 200 gallons. I tried a couple of
>heater calculators on the web, one said 28W (LOL) and the other said 700W. I
>was hoping for less, but I imagine the 700 is close. Although the same
>calculator said I need 300-400 watts of light for my 55 gallon. My poor
>Cardinals would need sun glasses. :) I only want to raise the temp about 5°
>F on average.
>
>
You don't mention where you keep the tank. If it is a heated area,
you can raise the room temperature close to the desired tank
temperature. During this last summer, I set the room temperature to
77F and let the house A/C keep it there. This winter I will need the
heaters as I plan to keep the house at 72F, natural gas heating costs
versus electric tank heater costs being the consideration.

Trouble with lights as heaters, what happens when you turn the lights
off? I have a 29 gallon with a fully enclosed hood that tends to
overheat while the lights are on. That is with 40 watts of light in
29 gallons of water.

I don't think I understand your problem. If your room temperature is
70F you need less watts, than if the room temperature is unheated and
tends to vary through out the day. You can have more than one heater
in the tank. Lot's of watts means you can heat faster, fewer watts
means the heating time may be longer and not keep up with the outside
changes if those are large.

So, what is your room temperature like in the winter?


dick

[George Pontis]

Bill Stock wrote:

....
>
> The tank in question has a radius of 34" and a depth of 24", but I'll
> likely keep the water at 18". This is roughly 200 gallons.

So roughly 6' across. Is this going to be outside ? This shape is much
different from a typical aquarium because there is more water surface
area compared to the volume.

If you have any airflow over the surface then that will carry away a
lot of heat. I don't think you will find a calculator that includes
that effect, or if it did it would be too hard to come up with the data
it needed to make an estimate. This is a wild card that can dominate
the heater requirements.


> I tried a
> couple of heater calculators on the web, one said 28W (LOL) and the
> other said 700W. I was hoping for less, but I imagine the 700 is
> close. Although the same calculator said I need 300-400 watts of
> light for my 55 gallon. My poor Cardinals would need sun glasses. :)
> I only want to raise the temp about 50 F on average.

A 50F difference is substantial, again much more than the typical
indoor application. Heater size goes up in proportion to the temp
difference. if you find a calculator, be sure that it includes this.

I can't offer much help figuring out the right heater for this
application, but it is clear that it is going to be something big. If
you can cover the top you will save a lot of electricity. If you can
cover the top and insulate around the bottom and sides then you might
get by with a simple 300W aquarium heater. An outdoor hot tub is not a
bad model for what you have described.

--

George

[Bill Stock]

"NetMax" > wrote in message
...
> "Bill Stock" > wrote in message
> ...
>>I thought there was a thread a while back started by John, who wanted
>>recommendations for a heater in a large tank. But I googled and could not
>>find it.
>>
>> The tank in question has a radius of 34" and a depth of 24", but I'll
>> likely keep the water at 18". This is roughly 200 gallons. I tried a
>> couple of heater calculators on the web, one said 28W (LOL) and the other
>> said 700W. I was hoping for less, but I imagine the 700 is close.
>> Although the same calculator said I need 300-400 watts of light for my 55
>> gallon. My poor Cardinals would need sun glasses. :) I only want to raise
>> the temp about 5° F on average.
>
> If it wasn't a circle, I'd send you here
> http://www.kernsanalysis.com/HeaterCalculator.cgi
> but if you try it anyways, enter a set of dimensions, close to a square
> which corresponds to the volume, and then it might be close. You lose
> less on corners ;~) but more on the increased surface area, so it might
> balance out.

I think that's the one that gave me 28W.

> My guess... hey... when filled, this is a 300g above-ground pond with a 6'
> diameter! I want pictures! My guess would be 500W actual, at least 600W
> installed (or 400W/500W at 18").

Yeah, but it ain't pretty; it's my Franken-Pond. Fortunately it's hidden
away in a basement ante-way.

I was thinking of running the lights (arrived today) by night and trying to
use my 350 watt heater from last years outdoor experiment to maintain the
heat during the day. I'd actually like to build a Solar wall as an
experiment, but I don't have the time or $$$ right now. I think this will
have to wait for my subjects outdoor experiment next year.


> --
> www.NetMax.tk
>

[Bill Stock]

"Dick" > wrote in message
...
> On Sun, 13 Nov 2005 21:01:01 -0500, "Bill Stock" >
> wrote:
>
>>I thought there was a thread a while back started by John, who wanted
>>recommendations for a heater in a large tank. But I googled and could not
>>find it.
>>
>>The tank in question has a radius of 34" and a depth of 24", but I'll
>>likely
>>keep the water at 18". This is roughly 200 gallons. I tried a couple of
>>heater calculators on the web, one said 28W (LOL) and the other said 700W.
>>I
>>was hoping for less, but I imagine the 700 is close. Although the same
>>calculator said I need 300-400 watts of light for my 55 gallon. My poor
>>Cardinals would need sun glasses. :) I only want to raise the temp about
>>5°
>>F on average.
>>
>>
> You don't mention where you keep the tank. If it is a heated area,
> you can raise the room temperature close to the desired tank
> temperature. During this last summer, I set the room temperature to
> 77F and let the house A/C keep it there. This winter I will need the
> heaters as I plan to keep the house at 72F, natural gas heating costs
> versus electric tank heater costs being the consideration.

It's in an unheated entryway in the basement. So the temp will be 55-60 on
most days. Ideally I'd like to keep the fish at 60, but 70 would be better
for the plants. These are Goldfish BTW, so the lower temps are not a
problem. But I prefer 60 to avoid any feeding issues.

> Trouble with lights as heaters, what happens when you turn the lights
> off? I have a 29 gallon with a fully enclosed hood that tends to
> overheat while the lights are on. That is with 40 watts of light in
> 29 gallons of water.
>

The light will be suspended at least 2'-3' above the plants to prevent
burning. I don't actually know how much heat they will provide. I'll likely
have to build a cover to hold in the heat.

> I don't think I understand your problem. If your room temperature is
> 70F you need less watts, than if the room temperature is unheated and
> tends to vary through out the day. You can have more than one heater
> in the tank. Lot's of watts means you can heat faster, fewer watts
> means the heating time may be longer and not keep up with the outside
> changes if those are large.
>
> So, what is your room temperature like in the winter?

House is 68 daytime and 60 nighttime.


>
> dick
>
>

[Bill Stock]

"George Pontis" > wrote in message
...
> Bill Stock wrote:
>
> ...
>>
>> The tank in question has a radius of 34" and a depth of 24", but I'll
>> likely keep the water at 18". This is roughly 200 gallons.
>
> So roughly 6' across. Is this going to be outside ? This shape is much
> different from a typical aquarium because there is more water surface
> area compared to the volume.
>
> If you have any airflow over the surface then that will carry away a
> lot of heat. I don't think you will find a calculator that includes
> that effect, or if it did it would be too hard to come up with the data
> it needed to make an estimate. This is a wild card that can dominate
> the heater requirements.
>
>
>> I tried a
>> couple of heater calculators on the web, one said 28W (LOL) and the
>> other said 700W. I was hoping for less, but I imagine the 700 is
>> close. Although the same calculator said I need 300-400 watts of
>> light for my 55 gallon. My poor Cardinals would need sun glasses. :)
>> I only want to raise the temp about 50 F on average.
>
> A 50F difference is substantial, again much more than the typical
> indoor application. Heater size goes up in proportion to the temp
> difference. if you find a calculator, be sure that it includes this.

Five degrees George, although 15 would likely be better.


> I can't offer much help figuring out the right heater for this
> application, but it is clear that it is going to be something big. If
> you can cover the top you will save a lot of electricity. If you can
> cover the top and insulate around the bottom and sides then you might
> get by with a simple 300W aquarium heater. An outdoor hot tub is not a
> bad model for what you have described.

I'm not sure if I was clear, but this ugly beast is inside. I think a cover
will be a very good idea. Although I'm not sure about the oxygen exchange
issues.


>
> --
>
> George
>

[Dick]

On Mon, 14 Nov 2005 21:41:14 -0500, "Bill Stock" >
wrote:

>
>"Dick" > wrote in message
...
>> On Sun, 13 Nov 2005 21:01:01 -0500, "Bill Stock" >
>> wrote:
>>
>>>I thought there was a thread a while back started by John, who wantedA
>>>recommendations for a heater in a large tank. But I googled and could not
>>>find it.
>>>
>>>The tank in question has a radius of 34" and a depth of 24", but I'll
>>>likely
>>>keep the water at 18". This is roughly 200 gallons. I tried a couple of
>>>heater calculators on the web, one said 28W (LOL) and the other said 700W.
>>>I
>>>was hoping for less, but I imagine the 700 is close. Although the same
>>>calculator said I need 300-400 watts of light for my 55 gallon. My poor
>>>Cardinals would need sun glasses. :) I only want to raise the temp about
>>>5°
>>>F on average.
>>>
>>>
>> You don't mention where you keep the tank. If it is a heated area,
>> you can raise the room temperature close to the desired tank
>> temperature. During this last summer, I set the room temperature to
>> 77F and let the house A/C keep it there. This winter I will need the
>> heaters as I plan to keep the house at 72F, natural gas heating costs
>> versus electric tank heater costs being the consideration.
>
>It's in an unheated entryway in the basement. So the temp will be 55-60 on
>most days. Ideally I'd like to keep the fish at 60, but 70 would be better
>for the plants. These are Goldfish BTW, so the lower temps are not a
>problem. But I prefer 60 to avoid any feeding issues.
>
>> Trouble with lights as heaters, what happens when you turn the lights
>> off? I have a 29 gallon with a fully enclosed hood that tends to
>> overheat while the lights are on. That is with 40 watts of light in
>> 29 gallons of water.
>>
>
>The light will be suspended at least 2'-3' above the plants to prevent
>burning. I don't actually know how much heat they will provide. I'll likely
>have to build a cover to hold in the heat.
>
>> I don't think I understand your problem. If your room temperature is
>> 70F you need less watts, than if the room temperature is unheated and
>> tends to vary through out the day. You can have more than one heater
>> in the tank. Lot's of watts means you can heat faster, fewer watts
>> means the heating time may be longer and not keep up with the outside
>> changes if those are large.
>>
>> So, what is your room temperature like in the winter?
>
>House is 68 daytime and 60 nighttime.
>
>
>>
>> dick
>>
>>
>
As I see your problem you need to maintain 65 to 70 degrees in a room
that may go to 50F and will be changing through the day. Not having a
top to the tank will allow the air warmed by the water to evaporate
carrying off heat.

I would think of a way to use a light hood that covers the tank top,
first of all.

Then I would plan to have 2 or even 3 heaters, maybe 200 watts each.
I imagine you have power filters, these will help keep the heat
distributed.

I would consider heating the hallway if the doors to it are kept
closed. The presence of the heated tank is going to heat the room
anyway, but if the room is heated then it will keep the tank warm. I
have a 75 gallon tank located near the room thermostat. It drives me
nuts in the summer. I like to cool the room to 76 degrees, but the
tank tells the thermostat the room is 78, so the A/C comes on and the
room sinks to less than 76 wasting energy and making the rooms
uncomfortable, so I end up raising the thermostat to 78 to shut off
the A/C. I learned to live with 78 degree room temperatures last
summer.

dick