Re: fluval issue

[Koi-lo]

"Brian" > wrote in message
...
> I'm just putting my experience out there, as a warning to others, to
> make sure your filter is running immediately after power outages. I
> wonder of others have experienced this problem.
========================
I've had a few Aquaclears to not start after an outage but no harm came to
the impeller well, the motor or the impeller itself. After cleaning the
slime off the impeller magnet, and the well itself - they'd start right up
again. My Fluval always started after a power outage.
--
Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastadaisy
~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>

[NetMax]

"Koi-lo" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Brian" > wrote in message
> ...
>> I'm just putting my experience out there, as a warning to others, to
>> make sure your filter is running immediately after power outages. I
>> wonder of others have experienced this problem.
> ========================
> I've had a few Aquaclears to not start after an outage but no harm came
> to the impeller well, the motor or the impeller itself. After cleaning
> the slime off the impeller magnet, and the well itself - they'd start
> right up again. My Fluval always started after a power outage.
> --
> Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
> My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
> http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastadaisy
> ~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>


This has been my experience as well (no damage), but I guess 30 hours
with extra heat from the magnetic field, and no cooling water to flow
past caused the hot spot to warp the plastic, further seizing the
impeller.

This is worrisome for office tanks which are left alone for the weekend,
and I don't see many practical preventatives (monitor electrical current
to interrupt power, monitor water flow to interrupt power or clean
impeller well religiously). I suspect different filters will have
different susceptibilities to this failure mode.

I have heard/seen this before (rarely) so I too am curious on what
equipment this has been seen before.
--
www.NetMax.tk

[Koi-lo]

"NetMax" > wrote in message
.. .
> This has been my experience as well (no damage), but I guess 30 hours with
> extra heat from the magnetic field, and no cooling water to flow past
> caused the hot spot to warp the plastic, further seizing the impeller.
=======================
That's a long time. My Aquaclears were running "dry" no more than perhaps 6
to 8 hours.
--
Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastadaisy
~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>

[Daniel Morrow]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1


Bottom posted.
- --
You can find my public key at https://keyserver1.pgp.com
"NetMax" > wrote in message
.. .
> "Koi-lo" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > "Brian" > wrote in message
> > ...
> >> I'm just putting my experience out there, as a warning to
others, to
> >> make sure your filter is running immediately after power
outages. I
> >> wonder of others have experienced this problem.
> > ========================
> > I've had a few Aquaclears to not start after an outage but no
harm came
> > to the impeller well, the motor or the impeller itself. After
cleaning
> > the slime off the impeller magnet, and the well itself - they'd
start
> > right up again. My Fluval always started after a power outage.
> > --
> > Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
> > My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
> > http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastadaisy
> > ~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>
>
>
> This has been my experience as well (no damage), but I guess 30
hours
> with extra heat from the magnetic field, and no cooling water to
flow
> past caused the hot spot to warp the plastic, further seizing the
> impeller.
>
> This is worrisome for office tanks which are left alone for the
weekend,
> and I don't see many practical preventatives (monitor electrical
current
> to interrupt power, monitor water flow to interrupt power or clean

> impeller well religiously). I suspect different filters will have

> different susceptibilities to this failure mode.
>
> I have heard/seen this before (rarely) so I too am curious on what

> equipment this has been seen before.
> --
> www.NetMax.tk
>
>

My experience last night was that after noticing reduced water flow
with my fluval msf 404 I unplugged it and plugged it back in and
noticed no water flow at all. Then I took the impeller well cover off
and discovered the ceramic shaft sticking to the cover instead of
staying in the impeller well. So I corrected it by removing the
ceramic shaft from the cover and inserted it back into the tiny hole
in the bottom of the impeller well - and now it seems to be working
perfectly. I just thought I would share my experience with these
things too. Thank goodness they are as reliable as they are (canister
filters). Good luck and later!

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.4.2 (MingW32) - WinPT 0.7.96rc1

iQD1AwUBQ3/LA62WfcjE5myzAQJHpQcAl/XYIQc4UXWIdQKqavxq4NhqBfdTwjCi
ln0h975nkWAzkIs1SaaAYR729aNvqZ2G4KlG80F6bZrAdG5tZ2 32KjkX3Bb/tIht
Juo6Rj5jqHCEitS3YwDyg+By1qapq2LQPve8H3GF4F83QBEOx0 IesoK4UePsteOD
AGuneqmqmj1R9SmPuwLzMktLFpCVd4CTKioEquXSduCq7+Y60g bvM/EcLu7NFfyN
kAN60iMUar4hYZk7MitDMbup+FxHR2f3RK2HRIou4XH36EQfYC uHEGGDtheThmKw
oseOCWNqq14=
=tLSu
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

[NetMax]

<snip>>
> My experience last night was that after noticing reduced water flow
> with my fluval msf 404 I unplugged it and plugged it back in and
> noticed no water flow at all. Then I took the impeller well cover off
> and discovered the ceramic shaft sticking to the cover instead of
> staying in the impeller well. So I corrected it by removing the
> ceramic shaft from the cover and inserted it back into the tiny hole
> in the bottom of the impeller well - and now it seems to be working
> perfectly. I just thought I would share my experience with these
> things too. Thank goodness they are as reliable as they are (canister
> filters). Good luck and later!



When installed, I think the 404 shaft is in both the well cover and a
black rubber washer at the other end. Which end it sticks to during
disassembly is not material to its operation. Your re-installing it
probably dislodged any mulm which was preventing the re-start. jmo.
--
www.NetMax.tk

[Daniel Morrow]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Bottom posted.

- --
You can find my public key at https://keyserver1.pgp.com
"NetMax" > wrote in message
.. .
> <snip>>
> > My experience last night was that after noticing reduced water
flow
> > with my fluval msf 404 I unplugged it and plugged it back in and
> > noticed no water flow at all. Then I took the impeller well cover
off
> > and discovered the ceramic shaft sticking to the cover instead
of
> > staying in the impeller well. So I corrected it by removing the
> > ceramic shaft from the cover and inserted it back into the tiny
hole
> > in the bottom of the impeller well - and now it seems to be
working
> > perfectly. I just thought I would share my experience with these
> > things too. Thank goodness they are as reliable as they are
(canister
> > filters). Good luck and later!
>
>
>
> When installed, I think the 404 shaft is in both the well cover and
a
> black rubber washer at the other end. Which end it sticks to
during
> disassembly is not material to its operation. Your re-installing
it
> probably dislodged any mulm which was preventing the re-start.
jmo.
> --
> www.NetMax.tk
>
>

Interesting point netmax. I don't want to be picky but the hole in my
fluval impeller cover goes all of the way through it, so conceivably
gravity could easily pull the ceramic shaft down to the filter
chamber cover, probably removing the ceramic shaft most of the way
out. The only 2 things keeping my impeller in the impeller chamber is
1: the rubber hole now gripping the ceramic shaft, and 2: I lay my
fluval on it's side because the tank it filters is so low to the
ground and it doesn't hurt any, so gravity works differently for my
setup. Mulm in the impeller chamber can definitely be an issue at
times. The fluvals have self flushing impeller wells which probably
contribute to the fact that I can get away with not cleaning the
fluval often, but apparently mulm can definitely make hagen
powerheads unreliable at power on (start up). If the power goes out
and back on, occasionally the hagen powerheads will stick and do
nothing if they aren't kept clean, and there is a possibility that
cleaning it might not be enough (I don't know yet - still observing
my cleanings). Good luck and later!

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.4.2 (MingW32) - WinPT 0.7.96rc1

iQD1AwUBQ3/44K2WfcjE5myzAQKNOgcAjOjxU5gX2K42UV9nfGOp9pGQn78E7 uAj
WtSftp4qqo9TJrVUoZ2Ug87Qmw14vXaQw/HJ3E3nGDCCASN3Y2qZDd7z81WfJJJE
KEiQcP+Rssx0XN7Jsx6TheNi8bQvbi/FCBRJpGha0cad4li13VNkMXr/3xUTdko1
dDIgPYZb+juq0Np14o15X8ckYoFC/QjW9M6X7Pu0CwZfbVfZeN+7Tl+jWJ0Evw/l
KiSQUR3Erf66gyMz85XM0MmNUmJeEQLsjUNEYq2iYTD8/Re5TFWdp9yay7YqG3vl
Kd+4rWpyL0U=
=kezy
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

[NetMax]

"Daniel Morrow" > wrote in message
...
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
> Bottom posted.
>
> - --
> You can find my public key at https://keyserver1.pgp.com
> "NetMax" > wrote in message
> .. .
>> <snip>>
>> > My experience last night was that after noticing reduced water
> flow
>> > with my fluval msf 404 I unplugged it and plugged it back in and
>> > noticed no water flow at all. Then I took the impeller well cover
> off
>> > and discovered the ceramic shaft sticking to the cover instead
> of
>> > staying in the impeller well. So I corrected it by removing the
>> > ceramic shaft from the cover and inserted it back into the tiny
> hole
>> > in the bottom of the impeller well - and now it seems to be
> working
>> > perfectly. I just thought I would share my experience with these
>> > things too. Thank goodness they are as reliable as they are
> (canister
>> > filters). Good luck and later!
>>
>>
>>
>> When installed, I think the 404 shaft is in both the well cover and
> a
>> black rubber washer at the other end. Which end it sticks to
> during
>> disassembly is not material to its operation. Your re-installing
> it
>> probably dislodged any mulm which was preventing the re-start.
> jmo.
>> --
>> www.NetMax.tk
>>
>>
>
> Interesting point netmax. I don't want to be picky but the hole in my
> fluval impeller cover goes all of the way through it, so conceivably
> gravity could easily pull the ceramic shaft down to the filter
> chamber cover, probably removing the ceramic shaft most of the way
> out. The only 2 things keeping my impeller in the impeller chamber is
> 1: the rubber hole now gripping the ceramic shaft, and 2: I lay my
> fluval on it's side because the tank it filters is so low to the
> ground and it doesn't hurt any, so gravity works differently for my
> setup. Mulm in the impeller chamber can definitely be an issue at
> times. The fluvals have self flushing impeller wells which probably
> contribute to the fact that I can get away with not cleaning the
> fluval often, but apparently mulm can definitely make hagen
> powerheads unreliable at power on (start up). If the power goes out
> and back on, occasionally the hagen powerheads will stick and do
> nothing if they aren't kept clean, and there is a possibility that
> cleaning it might not be enough (I don't know yet - still observing
> my cleanings). Good luck and later!


re: being picky, no worries :o). I'm still learning, and if hole in the
impeller cover goes all the way through, then you definitely have a
point. I'm going to have to take a closer look at this next time I have
one apart. The Fluval internals seemed to do this a lot to me (impeller
shaft sliding down), but I never had complaints about it.

The situation of not starting after a power interruption is not unique to
Hagen. It's more of a characteristic of magnetic impellers. The force
required to spin them is much smaller than the force required to start
them, so a bit of resistance from debris can cause them to not start.
Ironically, I think this is partly by design as they made the motors
smaller (cheaper, less heat generated, less electricity consumed). When
magnetic impellers were invented (I was in the hobby then, as many others
here) they were more powerful, so they rarely didn't restart from debris,
but they often didn't restart because of alignment. Instead of a well,
they used a platter, and the slightest misalignment would magnify itself
and wear the blades down from rubbing. When they lost power, they would
throw themselves over to a side so far as to not restart again. I
probably still have a box of impeller blades which have all been slightly
modified for balance. We are relatively spoiled today ;~).
--
www.NetMax.tk

[Daniel Morrow]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Bottom posted.

- --
You can find my public key at https://keyserver1.pgp.com
"NetMax" > wrote in message
...
> re: being picky, no worries :o). I'm still learning, and if hole
in the
> impeller cover goes all the way through, then you definitely have a

> point. I'm going to have to take a closer look at this next time I
have
> one apart. The Fluval internals seemed to do this a lot to me
(impeller
> shaft sliding down), but I never had complaints about it.
>
> The situation of not starting after a power interruption is not
unique to
> Hagen. It's more of a characteristic of magnetic impellers. The
force
> required to spin them is much smaller than the force required to
start
> them, so a bit of resistance from debris can cause them to not
start.
> Ironically, I think this is partly by design as they made the
motors
> smaller (cheaper, less heat generated, less electricity consumed).
When
> magnetic impellers were invented (I was in the hobby then, as many
others
> here) they were more powerful, so they rarely didn't restart from
debris,
> but they often didn't restart because of alignment. Instead of a
well,
> they used a platter, and the slightest misalignment would magnify
itself
> and wear the blades down from rubbing. When they lost power, they
would
> throw themselves over to a side so far as to not restart again. I

> probably still have a box of impeller blades which have all been
slightly
> modified for balance. We are relatively spoiled today ;~).
> --
> www.NetMax.tk
>


Thanks for sharing that netmax, I had been wondering about these
things - the lower power powerheads these days not starting sometimes
makes sense to me - after all - canister filters consume more energy
but practically always restart as soon as power is restored. Good
luck and later!

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.4.2 (MingW32) - WinPT 0.7.96rc1

iQD1AwUBQ4ECPa2WfcjE5myzAQI+LAb+NXpX+8Hygh25xJt7Qs UDn0pQE/fi7c0O
s+46ZZzFZKZoFlDSZR4re/Y5gvk2SbpQfB+h03h1dSn8Iwv9c9yeflkFLNl8hEOm
LUPWnXiH1nBpPB46okqiC73RIbPRNgP1iipg1KfWHoN2uhyrD6 m2HrD9VnhQxCwl
Gc6k1jci5pjt6eAQLi12EjvmRfHLioNFHOwbiO53PtlfocjYDi XUixYg2AgJczJF
UoZNZFn/gyJoYQ5bBhWNIyngiFOxwJRnRTTF8nqbBtFqr+gP4mdST3V/gwA1kRpK
GfBS8+13lYY=
=cEUt
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----