plenum vs DSB ;)

[Marx]

What will be better for me:

a)plenum in sump from coraline gravel, it can be quite thick (15cm or even
more), main tank - bare bottom
b)DSB in sump (no possibility to buy live sand at all, so only dead
sand+worms from live rock)
c)plenum in sump, and sand in main tank (tank is only 35cm height, so no
real DSB, maybe 3-4cm of sand max.)

a - the cheapiest method (sand is quite expensive here), high flow in main
tank without problems
b - worms must migrate from live rock only, i will not be able to add new
worms, expensive sand, but recently very popular method
c - cheap plenum, thin layer of sand can hold some worms (probably better
then plenum), but high flow can move sand all over the tank

[Steve Sells]

If this is really the case, use a Berlin method, NO bottom cover, and its
easy to clean.

I would NOT want a thick (or even a thin) layer of gravel at all.

Steve

"Marx" > wrote in message
...
> What will be better for me:
>
> a)plenum in sump from coraline gravel, it can be quite thick (15cm or even
> more), main tank - bare bottom
> b)DSB in sump (no possibility to buy live sand at all, so only dead
> sand+worms from live rock)
> c)plenum in sump, and sand in main tank (tank is only 35cm height, so no
> real DSB, maybe 3-4cm of sand max.)
>
> a - the cheapiest method (sand is quite expensive here), high flow in main
> tank without problems
> b - worms must migrate from live rock only, i will not be able to add new
> worms, expensive sand, but recently very popular method
> c - cheap plenum, thin layer of sand can hold some worms (probably better
> then plenum), but high flow can move sand all over the tank
>
>

[Marx]

> If this is really the case, use a Berlin method, NO bottom cover, and its
> easy to clean.
>
> I would NOT want a thick (or even a thin) layer of gravel at all.
it's gravel "sugar size", sometimes called sand, but is of course much
bigger then advised for DSB. As I read, plenum should be made made of such
gravel, so why not?
Berlin method needs huge amount of live rock, and don't add biodiversity to
tank, so it's my last option.

[Richard Reynolds]

> > If this is really the case, use a Berlin method, NO bottom cover, and its
> > easy to clean.
> >
> > I would NOT want a thick (or even a thin) layer of gravel at all.

> it's gravel "sugar size", sometimes called sand, but is of course much
> bigger then advised for DSB. As I read, plenum should be made made of such
> gravel, so why not?

when you say gravel those of us in the US :) will assume the smallest piece to be about
1/4" though this isnt what you are refering to, its what WE see. using gravel in a SW tank
is so bad for so many reasons. using sugar sized sand is very common.

id do the first option, though you can easily use sugar sized sand in a DSB many do. if
you can find it, id put the lowest layer as larger than sugar sized sand, and the top
layer sugar sized. I know there are numbers for the grades, but ive forgoten what each one
was, I use plenums, but I dont set them up all the time.




--
Richard Reynolds

[Steve Sells]

Agreed, Sugar size is Fine. and I am in the States, and it its Coral based,
it will have smaller sizes, both at first and more as time goes on... from
the natural break down and movement of the sand

Steve



> > it's gravel "sugar size", sometimes called sand, but is of course much
> > bigger then advised for DSB.

[Marx]

> The advantage of a deep sand bed (DSB) over a plenum is that the DSB
> is easier to setup. Especially for the newbie. In your case a plenum
> sounds like the better option, due to the cost. (It also sounds like
> you know how to setup a plenum properly. :)
as i read there are more differences, population of worms, disagreement
about heavy metal storing inside.
And DSB works worse in denitrification without big population of worms (it's
what I cannot deliver) then plenum.
But, if i do plenum from sugar-sized sand, there of course will be worms
too? What, if they dig under my net covering bottom?
How long lasts plenum? Is there need to change some sand after period of
time (as adviced by R. Shimek for DSB)

>
> Personally I would put fine sand in the main tank for looks.
>
>

[Marx]

> id do the first option, though you can easily use sugar sized sand in a
DSB many do.
R. Shimek adiviced much smaller sand. What cause DSB without sand of optimal
size? Small population of worms? Worse denitrification? Detritus
accumulation?

[Marx]

> Agreed, Sugar size is Fine. and I am in the States, and it its Coral
based,
> it will have smaller sizes, both at first and more as time goes on...
from
> the natural break down and movement of the sand
Is it noticeable? How fast does it happen?

Do you guys introduce periodically new worms to yours DSB?

[Richard Reynolds]

> Do you guys introduce periodically new worms to yours DSB?

nope no real need.

a plenum doesnt require the amount of sand sifting that is required in a DSB and even if
you only have 1 type of worm, it will do, optionally I have found that mini brittle stars
the 1" (2.5cm) guys do a good job. though consuming the worms, they do keep the sand bed
going as much as its needed.



--
Richard Reynolds

[Richard Reynolds]

uugh if i could only read!!!

sorry responded to that as if you were asking about adding to plenum's
> > Do you guys introduce periodically new worms to yours DSB?

I havent had a DSB long enough to consider toping off, ive only had one for about 1 year.

--
Richard Reynolds

[Marx]

Richard Reynolds wrote:

> uugh if i could only read!!!
> sorry responded to that as if you were asking about adding to plenum's
:)

>>>Do you guys introduce periodically new worms to yours DSB?
> I havent had a DSB long enough to consider toping off, ive only had one for about 1 year.
Do you introduce some at the bieginning, or based DSB on worms from live
rock?

[Richard Reynolds]

we americans have IMO some of the best LR available, and the company that sells it also
sells LS

http://tampabaysal****er.com/shipping.html
they do ship outside of the US. but the bill will be much higher, consider it though if
you can.

however when/if you buy the LR its all you need, itll have plenty of critters to keep you
happy for months.
at least my single DSB is very happy.

--
Richard Reynolds

[Marx]

I can make plenum.
I can make DSB from sugar sized coral sand
I can buy some fine sand and mix it with sugar sized (probably it makes
DSB better)
I can do that only in sump.

Additionaly i can put thin layer of sand in main tank.


What to choose?

Your answers says, everything is possible and everything will work.
But which one will work the best?

Which method gives me the best filtration and lasts longer?

I plan to have corals (soft at the beggining), and no fish at all (maybe
much later one or two).

[Richard Reynolds]

> I can make plenum.
> I can make DSB from sugar sized coral sand
> I can buy some fine sand and mix it with sugar sized (probably it makes
> DSB better)
> I can do that only in sump.
> What to choose?

> But which one will work the best?
I think id go plenum.

simply because its remote now, and the critters from LR are going to have a more dificult
time making the voyage, and as you have mentioned its harder for you to get critters.
from what ive read on remote DSB's they either are or could be less effective, IME remote
plenums still do there jobs.

> Additionaly i can put thin layer of sand in main tank.
go for it.

> Your answers says, everything is possible and everything will work.

yep.

> Which method gives me the best filtration and lasts longer?

I wouldnt make that argument, both have held up for many people, and at the same time have
not for others.

> I plan to have corals (soft at the beggining), and no fish at all (maybe
> much later one or two).

cool either way.

--
Richard Reynolds

[Jimmy Chen]

> a - the cheapiest method (sand is quite expensive here), high flow in main
> tank without problems

Dont have a sand bottom.

> b - worms must migrate from live rock only, i will not be able to add new
> worms, expensive sand, but recently very popular method

Read above. If you arent going to set it up correctly, then its better not
to set one up at all. Such a requirement is like demanding corals must grow
out of LR because corals are expensive. Sorry, but not all of DSB's infauna
lives in LR.

> c - cheap plenum, thin layer of sand can hold some worms (probably better
> then plenum), but high flow can move sand all over the tank

Cheapest way is not to have a bottom layer at all.

jc

[Marx]

> and the critters from LR are going to have a more dificult
> time making the voyage, and as you have mentioned its harder for you to get critters.
> from what ive read on remote DSB's they either are or could be less effective, IME remote
> plenums still do there jobs.
there is possibility to put some LR into sump at the beggining, so
critters colonize DSB in sump easier.

As i read, some makes DSB from sugar sized sand. I'll do plenum with
such sand. So besides empty space under sand, there will be no much
difference between those two methods? And critters colonize sand in the
same way?

>>Additionaly i can put thin layer of sand in main tank.
> go for it.
as i read it can allow me to put some corals on the sand, so i think it
will be done.

[Marx]

Jimmy Chen wrote:

>>b - worms must migrate from live rock only, i will not be able to add new
>>worms, expensive sand, but recently very popular method
> Read above. If you arent going to set it up correctly, then its better not
> to set one up at all. Such a requirement is like demanding corals must grow
> out of LR because corals are expensive. Sorry, but not all of DSB's infauna
> lives in LR.
As i read, DSB will work in such manner, but worse. But it'll still be
working to some degree.

>>c - cheap plenum, thin layer of sand can hold some worms (probably better
>>then plenum), but high flow can move sand all over the tank
> Cheapest way is not to have a bottom layer at all.
Cheapest would be to not have tank at all, it's what you want to say? :)
I want to have some filtration in my system, plenum seems to be the
cheapiest method (Berlion method needs much expensive LR, DSB needs
expensive sand and critters).
Because it will be in my sump, i can in future swith to another method
without bothering main tank.

[Jimmy Chen]

> As i read, DSB will work in such manner, but worse. But it'll still be
> working to some degree.

Some times some degree is worst then none. One must realize that DSB in
itself is an ecosystem that have its own life support system. By not doing
it correctly, one will have 1/2 a life support system that will require you
to act as the missing 1/2. Do you want to have a tank that requires you to
do more routine maint? The result in this case totally defeats the purpose
of having a DSB in the first place.

> I want to have some filtration in my system, plenum seems to be the
> cheapiest method (Berlion method needs much expensive LR, DSB needs
> expensive sand and critters).

Plenum do not work as well or is as easy to set up then DSB. Search the
archives in googles and I am sure you will get plenty of hits on how people
have gone DSB for less then a few bucks per 50 pounds. The beauty of DSB is
that if you cannot afford to get LS, you can always just get some sand from
a fellow hobbyist that have an established DSB setup. As for the dead
portion, just purcahse some clean and fine oolitic sand at a good local
hardware/guardening place that sells quality Ca based playsand. DSB only
needs expensive LS to seed the "dead" sand portion if you cannot get any
from follow hobbyist. It is also much better then trying to use LR as the
seeding.

jc

[Jimmy Chen]

> As i read, some makes DSB from sugar sized sand. I'll do plenum with
> such sand. So besides empty space under sand, there will be no much
> difference between those two methods? And critters colonize sand in the
> same way?

It is not possible to do plenum with sugar sand as they will all fall thru
the screen and into the plenum. If you think you can also use very fine
material to act as the screen to prevent that from happening, then you block
out the necessary water flow into the plenum hence defeats the purpose of
having it.

jc

[Marx]

Jimmy Chen wrote:

>>As i read, DSB will work in such manner, but worse. But it'll still be
>>working to some degree.
>
>
> Some times some degree is worst then none. One must realize that DSB in
> itself is an ecosystem that have its own life support system. By not doing
> it correctly, one will have 1/2 a life support system that will require you
> to act as the missing 1/2. Do you want to have a tank that requires you to
> do more routine maint? The result in this case totally defeats the purpose
> of having a DSB in the first place.
DSB have some potential to act as filter. Filtering at half of potential
doesn't mean it will not be enough. It depends on bioload of tank.
My concern is, that it will not be functioning at all or worse it will
pollute tank (after accumulating some wastes), or turn my sand into rock.

So the question is: will worms from live rock be enough to make DSB
working at all?


> Plenum do not work as well or is as easy to set up then DSB. Search the
> archives in googles and I am sure you will get plenty of hits on how people
> have gone DSB for less then a few bucks per 50 pounds. The beauty of DSB is
> that if you cannot afford to get LS, you can always just get some sand from
> a fellow hobbyist that have an established DSB setup. As for the dead
> portion, just purcahse some clean and fine oolitic sand at a good local
> hardware/guardening place that sells quality Ca based playsand. DSB only
> needs expensive LS to seed the "dead" sand portion if you cannot get any
> from follow hobbyist. It is also much better then trying to use LR as the
> seeding.
You haven't read all thread - it's impossible to buy cheap sand (only
silicate, which i'm afraid of) here, and nobody have DSB now near me.
Real live sand (with worms) is totally impossible to get here (no import
at all).

[Richard Reynolds]

<huge snip :)>
>only silicate, which i'm afraid of

hey I dont recall you saying this before. dont be afraid of silicate sand. search
groups.google.com for responses about it.
almost all of the silicate in sand are not available to algaes and such

> here, and nobody have DSB now near me.
> Real live sand (with worms) is totally impossible to get here (no import
> at all).

you might also search RC, maybee there is someone at least close enough to share some LS
with you, in your country so no import worries just not in your neighborhood. at least if
you have not already :).



--
Richard Reynolds

[nanoreef]

Marx may have written:

> You haven't read all thread - it's impossible to buy cheap sand (only
> silicate, which i'm afraid of)

Fine white quartz based silica sand is perfectly safe for reef
tanks. This type of silica is insoluble (won't dissolve) in
water. Here is good article on the subject:
http://www.reefs.org/library/article/r_toonen9.html

[Jimmy Chen]

> So the question is: will worms from live rock be enough to make DSB
> working at all?

It wont be enough, as DSB also needs infauna worms that will be more then
welling to dig into the bed to keep it functional. Your LR worm arent going
to enjoy the DSB anaerobic zones.

> silicate, which i'm afraid of) here,

Your tank glass is made out of silicate. ;p
Read the link nanoreef provided.

> and nobody have DSB now near me.
> Real live sand (with worms) is totally impossible to get here (no import
> at all).

Not even from the EU countries? You are right next to Germany, the home of
many well known reef hobbyist. You may want to contact the place you will
get your LR from and see if they can just get you a few pounds of LS. All
you need is some to seed your new bed, you do not need a whole tank load of
LS.

jc

[Marx]

nanoreef wrote:

> Marx may have written:
>
>
>>You haven't read all thread - it's impossible to buy cheap sand (only
>>silicate, which i'm afraid of)
>
>
> Fine white quartz based silica sand is perfectly safe for reef
> tanks. This type of silica is insoluble (won't dissolve) in
> water. Here is good article on the subject:
> http://www.reefs.org/library/article/r_toonen9.html

I've read newer article
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/jan2003/feature.htm
As i see the most important is to find sand primarily made of quartz.
And sand from river isn't good choice - better would be from our Baltic Sea

[Marx]

Richard Reynolds wrote:

> you might also search RC, maybee there is someone at least close enough to share some LS
> with you, in your country so no import worries just not in your neighborhood. at least if
> you have not already :).
Don't know what RC is, but believe me, nobody here in Poland have real
live sand, even in Deutchland (which borders with Poland and is much
more adavanced in marine aquaristic) it isn't available, as i know.

The only potential live sand is silicate sand from Baltic Sea (much
warmer sea, and lower in salinity, so probably worms will not be living
in tropical tank).

[Marx]

Jimmy Chen wrote:

>>So the question is: will worms from live rock be enough to make DSB
>>working at all?
> It wont be enough, as DSB also needs infauna worms that will be more then
> welling to dig into the bed to keep it functional. Your LR worm arent going
> to enjoy the DSB anaerobic zones.
it's bad news :(

>>silicate, which i'm afraid of) here,
> Your tank glass is made out of silicate. ;p
> Read the link nanoreef provided.
I read it, so it seems possible for me to made DSB, but only if i'll
take some live sand to start it.

> Not even from the EU countries? You are right next to Germany, the home of
> many well known reef hobbyist. You may want to contact the place you will
> get your LR from and see if they can just get you a few pounds of LS. All
> you need is some to seed your new bed, you do not need a whole tank load of
we will part EU next year ;)
i'll try, but in Germany there is popular Berlin method, so they don't
use live sand.
Our main import is from Indonesia, and there is no import of live sand
at all. I don't know why. Maybe nobody wants it (besides me?) ;)

[Richard Reynolds]

> > you might also search RC, maybee there is someone at least close enough to share some
LS
> > with you, in your country so no import worries just not in your neighborhood. at least
if
> > you have not already :).

> Don't know what RC is,

www.reefcentral.com

> but believe me, nobody here in Poland have real
> live sand, even in Deutchland (which borders with Poland and is much
> more adavanced in marine aquaristic) it isn't available, as i know.

"real live sand" is a wierd phrase, and i would beleve no one in poland has LS, but not
germany, I dont know where in germany you would have to go, but it probibly wouldnt be
that far from anywhere. and MAYBEE someone could ship, you dont need much.

> The only potential live sand is silicate sand from Baltic Sea (much
> warmer sea, and lower in salinity, so probably worms will not be living
> in tropical tank).

I dont know the area at all :( however warmer ?? whats warmer??? (here I go im gona put my
foot in my mouth), it seems to be up north a ways, that tells me its not warmer, and that
your tank will be warmer ??? even so thatll work, lower salinity could work but id hop on
RC there is a much wider base,

however the post was to say non LS silicate will do fine. and check out RC.


dutchland isnt even on the map I was looking at.
(here I go again) but it *SEEMS* to me all of poland is not that far from germany you can
get LOTS of LS there. though it only seems that was as on my map the entire country of
poland is only 200M wide. as I said I dont know the area, at all, so I could be wrong.


--
Richard Reynolds

[Marx]

> "real live sand" is a wierd phrase, and i would beleve no one in poland has LS, but not
> germany, I dont know where in germany you would have to go, but it probibly wouldnt be
> that far from anywhere. and MAYBEE someone could ship, you dont need much.
"real live sand" means live sand with worms inside it
I can buy so-called live sand packed hermetic - but it's wet sand with
bacteria only, so it isn't real for me

>>The only potential live sand is silicate sand from Baltic Sea (much
>>warmer sea, and lower in salinity, so probably worms will not be living
>>in tropical tank).
>
>
> I dont know the area at all :( however warmer ?? whats warmer??? (here I go im gona put my
> foot in my mouth), it seems to be up north a ways, that tells me its not warmer, and that
> your tank will be warmer ??? even so thatll work, lower salinity could work but id hop on
> RC there is a much wider base,
I meant "colder" :)) my mistake, sorry. Average temperature is way below
20 Celcius.

> dutchland isnt even on the map I was looking at.
ROTFL :)

> (here I go again) but it *SEEMS* to me all of poland is not that far from germany you can
> get LOTS of LS there. though it only seems that was as on my map the entire country of
> poland is only 200M wide. as I said I dont know the area, at all, so I could be wrong.
Poland borders on Germany. But I didn't see any German aquarist using
DSB, only Berlin method. Maybe I should serach more...

[CapFusion]

> Our main import is from Indonesia, and there is no import of live sand
> at all. I don't know why. Maybe nobody wants it (besides me?) ;)

Hummm...... I am not sure but I always thought European country have alot of
aquarist enthurist. Alot of innovation [method and hardware] coming out of
European country first [normally] before it come to the US side include LS.

If you can not get LS, you can try import it from US online like
MarineDepot.
http://www.marinedepotlive.com/live-rock-sand.html
It will cost you a hefty price for 50lb but try to see if you can get it in
a smaller amount.

From your neck-of-the-wood, do you have any kind of magazine that you can
take a look at and see any of those vendor maybe near by you to purchase or
if possible to exchange a couple of cup of LS.

CapFusion,...

[Marx]

CapFusion wrote:

>>Our main import is from Indonesia, and there is no import of live sand
>>at all. I don't know why. Maybe nobody wants it (besides me?) ;)
>
>
> Hummm...... I am not sure but I always thought European country have alot of
> aquarist enthurist. Alot of innovation [method and hardware] coming out of
> European country first [normally] before it come to the US side include LS.
Idea came from Monaco (Jaubert), but as i see it is not popular in
Europe at all.

>
> If you can not get LS, you can try import it from US online like
> MarineDepot.
> http://www.marinedepotlive.com/live-rock-sand.html
> It will cost you a hefty price for 50lb but try to see if you can get it in
> a smaller amount.
Yes, it cost way too much for me
You wil not belive me, but my budget for this tank is about 400$ (RO
included)

> From your neck-of-the-wood,
this phrase i don't understand, sorry :)

> do you have any kind of magazine that you can
> take a look at and see any of those vendor maybe near by you to purchase or
> if possible to exchange a couple of cup of LS.
Poland has only a few importers of marine livestock. All of that import
is from Indonesia, because (i think) it is the cheapiest source.
DSB or plenum is rather new method here. None of LFS even heard about
that method (some of them heard about miracle mud, because some time ago
here was advertisment of that product).
I asked importers about possibility of import of LS, but still no answer.

I don't know what magazine/vendors do you think about. Poland doesn't
mine/collect aragonite/oolitic/coraline sand, because we doesn't have
any ocean nearly.

[CapFusion]

> You wil not belive me, but my budget for this tank is about 400$ (RO
> included)
>

$400(USD?). I am not sure if you can get much from $400US. A decent PS / RO
/ Light only may cost about or more over $400US.



> > From your neck-of-the-wood,
> this phrase i don't understand, sorry :)
>

Meaning.... Close to your area where you live.


> Poland has only a few importers of marine livestock. All of that import
> is from Indonesia, because (i think) it is the cheapiest source.
> DSB or plenum is rather new method here. None of LFS even heard about
> that method (some of them heard about miracle mud, because some time ago
> here was advertisment of that product).
> I asked importers about possibility of import of LS, but still no answer.
>
> I don't know what magazine/vendors do you think about. Poland doesn't
> mine/collect aragonite/oolitic/coraline sand, because we doesn't have
> any ocean nearly.
>

You are in a bad situation. I do not want to discourage you in this hobby
but you may need to feed your piggy bank abit more until you have enough for
what you are planning to get. Marine tank is very tough on low budget. You
can get by from getting cheap equipment but I do not recommend it. Better if
you can get what you need the first time around instead of upgrading and
need to spend more.

Continue asking question from this RAMR NG. Once in-awhile there maybe a
good deal that someone hear about.

BTW, I thought Poland is next to the Baltic Sea? The coast should have
something relate to aquarium stuff (guessing / assuming). Or your neighbor
Germany.

CapFusion,...

[Jimmy Chen]

> Hummm...... I am not sure but I always thought European country have alot
of
> aquarist enthurist. Alot of innovation [method and hardware] coming out of
> European country first [normally] before it come to the US side include
LS.

EU is better known for early technical improvements, such as strong lights,
filters, skimmers, CA reactors, etc. But recent years many advancement have
been coming out of USA. General knownedge pushes by people such as
Delbeek/Sprung, Shimek, Siegel and host of others are mainly coming out of
US via the WWW.

jc

[Marx]

CapFusion wrote:
> $400(USD?). I am not sure if you can get much from $400US. A decent PS / RO
> / Light only may cost about or more over $400US.
i knew you will not believe me :) Website is in planning stage, so
i''try to show it in future.

>>>From your neck-of-the-wood,
>>this phrase i don't understand, sorry :)
> Meaning.... Close to your area where you live.
uhh, it was very tricky... :)

> You are in a bad situation. I do not want to discourage you in this hobby
> but you may need to feed your piggy bank abit more until you have enough for
> what you are planning to get. Marine tank is very tough on low budget. You
> can get by from getting cheap equipment but I do not recommend it. Better if
> you can get what you need the first time around instead of upgrading and
> need to spend more.
yes, i plan to invest more, but i must train on something to know what i
need. My plan is to have cheap understocked tank with easy species and
without fishes for a while

> Continue asking question from this RAMR NG. Once in-awhile there maybe a
> good deal that someone hear about.
i used polish newsgroups and forums to buy some used equipment, from USA
i can get only good advices :)

> BTW, I thought Poland is next to the Baltic Sea? The coast should have
> something relate to aquarium stuff (guessing / assuming). Or your neighbor
> Germany.
Germany borders to the same sea.
The coast has rather nothing interesting, beacuse sea is much colder.
Some of us tried to have some species in cold-water tanks, but they are
not very attractive.

[Marx]

Jimmy Chen wrote:

> EU is better known for early technical improvements, such as strong lights,
> filters, skimmers, CA reactors, etc. But recent years many advancement have
> been coming out of USA. General knownedge pushes by people such as
> Delbeek/Sprung, Shimek, Siegel and host of others are mainly coming out of
> US via the WWW.
And it's easy to say why: USA has ocean with reefs around, Europe don't.

[CapFusion]

>
> > BTW, I thought Poland is next to the Baltic Sea? The coast should have
> > something relate to aquarium stuff (guessing / assuming). Or your
neighbor
> > Germany.
> Germany borders to the same sea.
> The coast has rather nothing interesting, beacuse sea is much colder.
> Some of us tried to have some species in cold-water tanks, but they are
> not very attractive.

Sorry, Marc, I meant Marx.
I can not help you specificly but you can contact your "Coral Reef Socities
of Poland"
http://www.aqualink.com/community/international.html

I guess us "folk" in U.S. Ca. B.K. German take thing for granted when come
to Reef.


HTH, GL.
CapFusion,...

[Jimmy Chen]

> And it's easy to say why: USA has ocean with reefs around, Europe don't.

If we go by that logic, then Europe actually has the hands up as it is much
closer to most of the major reefs around the world, and USA has all but two
areas, of which one has limited spieces (FL/Gulf) and the other is 100% off
limits (Hawaii). In addition, the spieces count of USA reefs are much lower
then the ones closer to Europe.

jc

[Marx]

CapFusion wrote:

> Sorry, Marc, I meant Marx.
> I can not help you specificly but you can contact your "Coral Reef Socities
> of Poland"
> http://www.aqualink.com/community/international.html
it seems dead - nobody of us in Poland heard about it.
Mail adres is incorrect now.

>
> I guess us "folk" in U.S. Ca. B.K. German take thing for granted when come
> to Reef.
The problem is there is small amount of reefers in Poland, but it
hopefully changes, i see many new tanks starting this year.
Sometimes you can get some things for free (frags) but rather not equipment.

[Marx]

Jimmy Chen wrote:

>>And it's easy to say why: USA has ocean with reefs around, Europe don't.
>
>
> If we go by that logic, then Europe actually has the hands up as it is much
> closer to most of the major reefs around the world, and USA has all but two
> areas, of which one has limited spieces (FL/Gulf) and the other is 100% off
> limits (Hawaii). In addition, the spieces count of USA reefs are much lower
> then the ones closer to Europe.

maybe you are right, i should look at the map where the main reefs are
located.
But what is for sure now, nobody of us in Poland can go to the beach and
get freely coraline live sand and sal****er and put it to the tank :)

[CapFusion]

> The problem is there is small amount of reefers in Poland, but it
> hopefully changes, i see many new tanks starting this year.
> Sometimes you can get some things for free (frags) but rather not
equipment.

Maybe you can try getting ordering Reef stuff from Germany side?

CapFusion,...

[Marx]

CapFusion wrote:
> Maybe you can try getting ordering Reef stuff from Germany side?
no problem with new equipment, rather problem with gifts ;) or live sand
- i doubt people from German send me any ;)

[JCBlueEyes]

> USA has all but two
>areas, of which one has limited spieces (FL/Gulf) and the other is 100% off
>limits (Hawaii).

You forgot about American Samoa plus a few other islands in the Pacific. :-)

[Fishnut]

On Wed, 24 Dec 2003 08:30:17 +0100, Marx >
wrote:

>CapFusion wrote:
>> Maybe you can try getting ordering Reef stuff from Germany side?
>no problem with new equipment, rather problem with gifts ;) or live sand
>- i doubt people from German send me any ;)

Marx,

Are there any fish-clubs near you ? A member keeping marines may be
able to help you. How many marine retailers are there near you ? Is it
possible to import stuff without too many restrictions ?

Regards, Fishnut.

[Marx]

Fishnut wrote:

> Are there any fish-clubs near you ?
Not sal****er

> A member keeping marines may be
> able to help you. How many marine retailers are there near you ?
1

> Is it
> possible to import stuff without too many restrictions ?
I can buy almost everything via Internet

Why do you ask?

[Marx]

I took a look at world map with reefs in my book - USA is much better
placed than Europe. It simply has shorter distance to tropical waters.

But european ideas are not dead - I've today read an article about
dosing vodka into tank to help denitryfication :)