bettas in plastic cups [Archive] - FishKeepingBanter.com

Gill Passman

November 24th 05, 12:37 AM

Koi-lo

November 24th 05, 12:44 AM

"Steve" > wrote in message
. ..
> With all the betta discussion lately, can someone tell me about bettas in
> plastic cups? Why are they offered for sale this way?

## Because they can't mix bettas together in one bag as they do the other
types of fish. It's the most economical way to ship them. There doesn't
seem to be an laws or rules regarding the care and welfare of fish. There
should be but there isn't from what I can see. The real abuse comes in when
they reach the stores or pet-shops where they are not properly cared for or
fed. They sit in their filthy water until it evaporates and they die, or
the toxic waste in the small container kills them. Wal*Mart stores carry
them in much larger containers but they're just as filthy and foul smelling.
The female I bought a few weeks ago was literally in a cesspool of filth.

The losses must
> be great and the fish don't look attractive for purchase.

## This is true in some chain-stores where the workers are either clueless
or couldn't care less. About 10% of them were already dead in a store I
visited yesterday. Some were already decomposed in their filthy containers.
Talk about cruelty. Those in PetsMart were in pretty good shape but in very
small cups.

> Also, when do the fish go into the plastic cups? Is it for transport, or
> are they raised in there? Thanks for any information.

## That would depend on what breeder they got them from. They must be
separated at some point to keep the finnage from being marred so the
breeders have to house them in something. I'm sure the big breeders have
some type of flow-through systems now. No one is changing the water in
thousands of small containers or jars. Those I saw years ago utilized all
types of glass containers. Most held no more than 2 cups of water. They
were "bagged" the day they were taken to the stores. The stores in that
area put them in those small ivy bowls that hold about 8 oz of water. If
the betta was lucky his new owner put him in something larger.
Unfortunately I saw people buy the same tiny ivy bowls to keep them in - no
gravel, no plants. I always felt the fish was going to his death. But I've
had people tell me they had bettas live several years in such small bowls.
Now I believe most bettas are imported. So they're probably in those small
cups for a few days by the time they reach the pet stores. One store here
puts the bettas in a filtered betta tank that has partitions and a
flow-through filter system of some kind.
I stopped breeding them back in the late 60s because there wasn't enough of
a market, nor did I get enough per fish to make it worth while, plus I had a
full time job - so I gave it up. I enjoyed it while I did it though. :-)
--
Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastadaisy
~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>

Steve

November 24th 05, 12:59 AM

Gill Passman wrote:
> Steve wrote:
>
>> With all the betta discussion lately, can someone tell me about bettas
>> in plastic cups? Why are they offered for sale this way? The losses
>> must be great and the fish don't look attractive for purchase.
>>
>> Also, when do the fish go into the plastic cups? Is it for transport,
>> or are they raised in there? Thanks for any information.
>>
>> Steve
>
>
>
> IMO if you are buying any fish you need to provide them with adequate
> and suitable accomodation as you would any pet.....I would never keep a
> fish such as a betta in anything other than a heated, filtered 5 gall
> (UK) tank....it is not possible to buy anything smaller at the reputable
> places I shop....that being said I do understand that bettas can be kept
> successfully in smaller, filtered, heated tanks quite happily - although
> I would think that probably a 2 gall would be the minimum....anything
> less and without the adequate provisions for what is a tropical fish IMO
> is cruel on a long term basis - afterall they need room to swim. Now
> obviously when breeding bettas a 2 gall tank for each of the fry is
> impractical which is why I believe most reputable breeders would go for
> a heated room therefore ensuring that the fish are kept at the right
> temps and smaller containers with more frequent water changes - in most
> cases, other than the very committed hobbyiest breeding these fish is a
> business and it is in the breeders interest for the fish to survive...at
> least til they hit the shops...
>
> Now, I don't breed bettas, although I do have two males that both live
> in their 20L (5UK gall) tanks....I would never consider keeping them in
> a cup or small bowl...to me, it just doesn't seem right....
>
> There is a trend, (horrible market), for selling bettas in vases...they
> are condemed to living in a small vase with a non-aquatic plant taking
> up most of the air space (so they had limited real air to breath). I
> believe the advice was that they would live on the plant roots - but
> bettas are carnivorous....the idea as far as I can see is that these
> fish were treated as ornaments rather than live animals....as expendable
> as a bunch of flowers....what you are describing very much smacks of
> this type of mentality...."look you can own a fish that can survive in a
> cup" - absolute rubbish - and by your question I can very much see that
> you are of the same opinion....
>
> All of this is based on my research, what I have heard from other more
> experienced betta keepers, the contentment of my bettas in their 5 gall
> tanks and a gut feeling that it is just so, so very wrong to provide any
> living creature with cramped conditions where they just survive rather
> than have any quality of life....hey, ho JMO
>
> Gill
>
>
>
Gill,
Thanks for sharing your betta experiences. I've had 3 male bettas in
long history of keeping aquariums, and two lasted less than a year for
me. The last one lasted perhaps 1.5 year, and it was in a planted,
heated, unfiltered 2 gallon plastic aquarium.

Stores housing/ selling bettas in plastic cups is a trend here in
Canada; its virtually impossible to find bettas in large aquariums in
the stores. All the betta discussion ;) here lately prompted my
question. I'm really quite curious about the reasons behind plastic cup
bettas, although I think the fish stores expect customers to move their
bettas to something larger than a cup once they get home.
Steve

Steve

November 24th 05, 01:15 AM

Koi-lo wrote:
>
> "Steve" > wrote in message
> . ..
>
>> With all the betta discussion lately, can someone tell me about bettas
>> in plastic cups? Why are they offered for sale this way?
>
>
> ## Because they can't mix bettas together in one bag as they do the
> other types of fish. It's the most economical way to ship them. There
> doesn't seem to be an laws or rules regarding the care and welfare of
> fish. There should be but there isn't from what I can see. The real
> abuse comes in when they reach the stores or pet-shops where they are
> not properly cared for or fed. They sit in their filthy water until it
> evaporates and they die, or the toxic waste in the small container kills
> them. Wal*Mart stores carry them in much larger containers but they're
> just as filthy and foul smelling. The female I bought a few weeks ago
> was literally in a cesspool of filth.
>
> The losses must
>
>> be great and the fish don't look attractive for purchase.
>
>
> ## This is true in some chain-stores where the workers are either
> clueless or couldn't care less. About 10% of them were already dead in
> a store I visited yesterday. Some were already decomposed in their
> filthy containers. Talk about cruelty. Those in PetsMart were in pretty
> good shape but in very small cups.
>
>> Also, when do the fish go into the plastic cups? Is it for transport,
>> or are they raised in there? Thanks for any information.
>
>
> ## That would depend on what breeder they got them from. They must be
> separated at some point to keep the finnage from being marred so the
> breeders have to house them in something. I'm sure the big breeders
> have some type of flow-through systems now. No one is changing the
> water in thousands of small containers or jars. Those I saw years ago
> utilized all types of glass containers. Most held no more than 2 cups
> of water. They were "bagged" the day they were taken to the stores.
> The stores in that area put them in those small ivy bowls that hold
> about 8 oz of water. If the betta was lucky his new owner put him in
> something larger. Unfortunately I saw people buy the same tiny ivy bowls
> to keep them in - no gravel, no plants. I always felt the fish was
> going to his death. But I've had people tell me they had bettas live
> several years in such small bowls. Now I believe most bettas are
> imported. So they're probably in those small cups for a few days by the
> time they reach the pet stores. One store here puts the bettas in a
> filtered betta tank that has partitions and a flow-through filter system
> of some kind.
> I stopped breeding them back in the late 60s because there wasn't enough
> of a market, nor did I get enough per fish to make it worth while, plus
> I had a full time job - so I gave it up. I enjoyed it while I did it
> though. :-)

Thanks, that's informative. As mentioned to another poster, I haven't
had great success with bettas. The single male bettas I kept in approx
15 gal community aquariums with other small fish each lasted about 9mo
to 1 year. The one I recently kept by itself in a heated, planted,
unfiltered 2 gallon aquarium lasted about 1.5 years. This raises a
couple of questions:

Are bettas relatively old when shipped, and expected to live only
another year?

Are bettas healthier and happier when kept by themselves?

Might a male betta make a wise addition to my planted 90 gallon
aquarium? I suspect not, because it has two male blue gourami (possible
fighting?) and some fast swimmers such as zebra danios, dwarf neon
rainbowfish and one large "miscellaneous" rainbowfish that came in with
the dwarfs.

Steve

Steve

November 24th 05, 01:53 AM

dddd wrote:
> i keep mine in a 120 with tiger barbs and a few other aggressive fish.
> the key is to grow plants to the top so they always have safe spots
> and can swim unnoticed. occasionally when exploring you may see your
> betta rush back to his plants. until the plants grow in you may hang a
> large ordiment from the top, which also gives your betta good
> protection in community tanks.
>

Thanks. My giant Val grow all over the tank surface, so maybe I'll try a
betta and see how it goes. The only problem is, I have nowhere suitable
to put the betta if it doesn't work out. The 2 gal aquarium is now a
snail-raising tank and too stinky for fish :) .

> On Wed, 23 Nov 2005 20:15:11 -0500, Steve > wrote:
>
>
>>Might a male betta make a wise addition to my planted 90 gallon
>>aquarium? I suspect not, because it has two male blue gourami (possible
>>fighting?) and some fast swimmers such as zebra danios, dwarf neon
>>rainbowfish and one large "miscellaneous" rainbowfish that came in with
>>the dwarfs.
>>
>>Steve
>
>
>
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NetMax

November 24th 05, 02:13 AM

"Steve" > wrote in message
. ..
> With all the betta discussion lately, can someone tell me about bettas
> in plastic cups?

Sure, I'll do my best.

> Why are they offered for sale this way?

Space, visibility & time. Stores might sell 20 a week, and not have 20
different aquariums to be able to keep them singly. They showcase
quickly for comparison when they are in the same area. A customer
looking for a Betta can do a quick comparison in a few minutes, rather
than going from tank to tank looking for them.

> The losses must be great and the fish don't look attractive for
> purchase.

Overall, probably not worst. Their isolation provides a degree of
protection from the diseases so common in the LFS. They are typically
underfed, which could be worst as they are also typically inadequately
maintained (water changes), and if fed regularly, would die in their own
wastes. They are usually predominantly displayed, and cadavers don't
make the store look good, so there is usually some effort to either
discontinue the practice, or keep an eye on them.

I was in the process of making a Betta shelf where I worked as I wanted
to build a lit bookcase to hold them in slightly larger containers
(square glass jars). Until then, we kept 95% of them on our counter in
cups, but they were under the staff's continuous observations. What
worked best was alternate cleaning and feeding. I had a weekly schedule
for all the fish room maintenance, and every day, the Bettas were either
fed or water changed. Seemed to work well, and we sold a lot of Bettas.
We did have customers with Betta collections, and some would ask when our
Betta delivery days were (to check out the best of the new arrivals).

> Also, when do the fish go into the plastic cups?

They can be ordered in the cups, or without cups, or with cups seperate.
For local purchases, transport in cups works fine (unless you already
have too many cups). Our store would not sell them in a cup. They were
moved into a bag with proper instructions. Occasionally, a customer
might take the cup (travels well in a cup holder) but only for
transportation purposes.

Imports are transported in tiny individual bags, with about 3oz of water
(enough to keep them wet, but not turn around). Incidentally, we started
receiving other fish in this manner, particularly Rams and Discus. It
looked terrible, but they seemed to travel very well, with very little
losses. Travel cost is basically the weight of the water, so this kept
shipping costs down. However, it would take an hour to process them on
arrival like an assembly line. Using water from a plant tank, partially
fill (but don't overfill) the plastic cup, open the envelope, pop the
fish out, throw the envelope and old water away, snap the cover on, feed
the fish (repeat 150 times). I once ordered 200 Bettas, but that took 3
weeks to sell, and I didn't want them in a cup longer than 2 weeks so I
kept the orders smaller. We even marked the lids every time they were
fed, like a prisoner in a cell, keeping time ;~), (so they wouldn't be in
a cup too long). Any fish who was in a cup too long, went into an
aquarium. Generally they would then color up and sell quickly, so this
worked out. I'm a businessman who is a hobbyist (or perhaps a hobbyist
who played being a businessman for a while ;~), so there was a balance to
achieve.

> Is it for transport, or are they raised in there?

Most Bettas come from Asia-Pac countries, China Singapore and Thailand
where hatcheries are huge industrial operations. If you google, you
might find photos. The ones I've seen have the fish being raised in jars
(millions of jars, shelf after shelf, row after row) with an air line and
a terbang tree leaf in each jar. The tanks are not heated (its already
very hot there) or filtered (I believe the fish are rather
unceremoniously moved around into progressively larger jars, as they make
their way to the boxing stations, another *very* interesting process).

> Thanks for any information.

cheers & thanks for asking
--
www.NetMax.tk

> Steve

Koi-lo

November 24th 05, 04:52 AM

<dddd> wrote in message ...
> so in conclusion bettas raised in these cups will die very young and
> in my opinion not have a very comfortable life. its a shame such a
> curious fish is often given so little to work with.
================
Part of the problem is people who buy them are not encouraged to buy bigger
bowls or small tanks for them. Many bettas are sold as children's pets.
The parents will not spent more than absolutely necessary. They make a
face when you tell them they need chlorine remover and how expensive is
that? How can you get them to spend $40 or more for a tank, filter and
heater? What about a reflector? That's another $10 or more...... try
getting a part-time job in a pet shop or aquarium store and you'll see what
I mean.

When they buy cheap goldfish many of them insist on a bowl, even when you
tell them the fish will soon suffocate and die. They don't seem to care.
Some are just too poor to purchase a tank plus the trappings. They simply
don't have the spare cash.
--
Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastadaisy
~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>

Koi-lo

November 24th 05, 04:58 AM

"Steve" > wrote in message
. ..
> Thanks for sharing your betta experiences. I've had 3 male bettas in long
> history of keeping aquariums, and two lasted less than a year for me. The
> last one lasted perhaps 1.5 year, and it was in a planted, heated,
> unfiltered 2 gallon plastic aquarium.

## Exactly my point. Housing them in a 1 to 2 gallon heated (and filtered)
tank is no guarantee they'll live out their full 4+ years. You are not the
first one to have this experience with bettas.

> Stores housing/ selling bettas in plastic cups is a trend here in Canada;
> its virtually impossible to find bettas in large aquariums in the stores.

## This is true. The better stores have those divided filtered tanks or 1
qt bowls to display them in. Most stores just leave them in the filthy bags
or put them in tiny ivy bowls - which they fail to clean or top-off.

All the betta discussion ;) here lately prompted my
> question. I'm really quite curious about the reasons behind plastic cup
> bettas, although I think the fish stores expect customers to move their
> bettas to something larger than a cup once they get home.

## I don't think they care as long as you have the money to pay for the
fish.........
--
Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastadaisy
~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>

Koi-lo

November 24th 05, 05:24 AM

"Steve" > wrote in message
. ..
>
> Thanks, that's informative. As mentioned to another poster, I haven't had
> great success with bettas. The single male bettas I kept in approx 15 gal
> community aquariums with other small fish each lasted about 9mo to 1 year.
> The one I recently kept by itself in a heated, planted, unfiltered 2
> gallon aquarium lasted about 1.5 years. This raises a couple of questions:
>
> Are bettas relatively old when shipped, and expected to live only another
> year?

## Some dishonest breeders do sell off their old stock rather than uthanize
the unwanted fish. So yes, you can get an OLD fish if you are not careful.
Buy only smaller YOUNG males and females. You will learn to tell the
difference if you examine them closely. Young fish are smaller and their
fins shorter although their color should still be bright and clear.

> Are bettas healthier and happier when kept by themselves?

## In my experience they are! There is no competition for food, and no
nipped fins among other things. Some are too aggressive to live in
community tanks. Some community tanks have too much current for bettas who
prefers calm water. Smaller faster fish may get most of the food and the
current wears down the betta, shortening it's life. Those that live the
longest of me have been in 1 quart to 2 gallon UNHEATED tanks. I believe
heating them to 80 F speeds their life processes and shortens their lives.
I can't prove this - it's just been my experience with the bettas I've had
over the years. I only heated the breeding tanks and young fry.

> Might a male betta make a wise addition to my planted 90 gallon aquarium?

## You can add one but I would never put a valued betta in a community tank.
Others will disagree. Try it and see if it works for you. You can always
remove him if there's a problem. Not only can bettas be aggressive to
others but other fish sometimes nip at their long fins ruining their looks
and possibly causing a fungus or bacterial infection. I keep mine alone
but where they can see each other and see what's going on in this part of
the house. Mine are in everything from 1 qt bowls to a filtered, planted 2
gallon display tank. All have gravel and a few small water lettuce in their
homes. Someone e-mailed me that Dollar General sells clear glass cookie
jars that hold 1 gallon of water, with a plastic lid (can punch air holes)
for $1.50 each. I plan to check these out next week. If I can get them for
around that price where I live I'll move them all to the gallon cookie jars.
:-)

I suspect not, because it has two male blue gourami (possible
> fighting?) and some fast swimmers such as zebra danios, dwarf neon
> rainbowfish and one large "miscellaneous" rainbowfish that came in with
> the dwarfs.

## Speaking for myself - I would rather keep valued bettas alone.

> Steve
--
Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastadaisy
~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>

Tynk

November 24th 05, 05:42 AM

Steve wrote:
> With all the betta discussion lately, can someone tell me about bettas
> in plastic cups? Why are they offered for sale this way? The losses must
> be great and the fish don't look attractive for purchase.
>
> Also, when do the fish go into the plastic cups? Is it for transport, or
> are they raised in there? Thanks for any information.
>
> Steve
Hi Steve.
Gill and Netmax couldn't have said it better! = )
Forget about adding male Bettas to a tank that has Gouramis init, as
they are too closely related and often the Betta will gets it butt
shredded. = (

You had asked in another post if they were relatively old when shipped.
That depends on the where the shops are getting them from.
>From mass shippers, then yes. Sadly they are about a year or more,
fully grown males that are shipped out. Bettas average a lifespan of
2-3 yrs. Of course many can live beyond that, and some barely make it
over a year.
These mass bred Bettas are also becoming poor specimens. I've watched
this decline for over 30 years. My family had tanks when I was child
and always had male Bettas in them. I was a small child when I started
paying attention and started my own tanks when I was 11. Kept them ever
since and will hit the 28 yr mark in March.
I also bred veils for 19 of those yrs. The difference between what used
to be and what the stores (most) get now is so sad. Thin, sickly
looking veil, and now they're trashing Crowntails as well. Spindly
looking things.
Some shops get them directly from specialty breeders and the quality is
obvious.
Even the veils they get it from these breeders are like what they
should be. Like so many years ago. Robust, "meaty" bodies, full finnage
with lovely body shapes that are true to the standard.
The Crowntails are knock outs! Once you see the difference between a
mass bred CT and a quality breeder's CT's.....you'll know what I'm
talking about and you'll never even consider buying anything else.
You'll be as spoiled as me. = )
Often when a shop gets them from a particular breeder, they tend to be
younger fish...under a year. Usually anywhere from 6-8 months of age.
Some can even give you all the info on that fish. Everything from spawn
/ hatch date, to the family tree.This of course depends on the breeder.

You also asked if they are happier or healthier when kept by
themselves.
This depends on the individual Betta.
Each has it's own personality. They all have their likes and dislikes.
Many get along just peachy with fish like fancy male Guppies, and some
do not.
Some are fine with having non nippy tank mates, and some are not.
Some are fine as long as the tank is large enough and has enough
plants, rocks or a cave.
Some are fine being housed with the opposite sex, some are not.
Females can be just as aggressive as males can be. Again, it all
depends on their individual personalites.
To say they would be happier or healthier by themselves, I'd have to
say no.
These are social fish that have a hierarchy. Just like a dog or wolf
pack. They need others or they suffer mentally.
For single male tanks, I house them next to one another. I never leave
them without a "flare buddy" when in single tanks.
Some prefer certain males as flare buddies and some simply don't care
for others.
I've had males that simply would not tolerate a certain male and flare
constantly, never stopping. These I would change around and find them a
flare buddy that they would flare with when they wanted to and then
rest when they felt like doing that.
Some I have only flare at one another when the lights go on and at
feeding time. Other than that they ignore each other.
I've had some become quite bored with one another and not flare at all.
That's no good as they actually need the stimulation and exercise.
I had one male, and this wasn't too long ago either, actually become
depressed and lethargic when his best buddy was moved (I like to swith
them around now and then so they don't become bored with each other). I
thought he was sick at first. Nope...he was depressed. I put his best
buddy back and he popped back to life in an instant.
I was amazed. That's when I found out they can be depressed and have
"best buddies".
Being that they need daily stimulation, I would have to say no...they
wouldn't be healthier by themselves....but that doesn't always mean to
have tank mates inside the tank.
Now when it comes to having them in larger tanks, absolutely try out
certain safe tank mates for them.
When it comes to females, house several together at least. They quickly
form a hierarchy. That right there tells you that they are not meant to
be solitary creatures by nature.
Keeping a male in with females will depend on tank size and the
individual personalities of each and every fish.
A female Betta can rip the pants right off a male too. Sex plays no
part in aggression.
Some are overly aggressive and some are just fine together.
You just always need a back up tank in case it doesn't work out.
When adding Bettas together (either several females or females and one
male), there will always be some posturing, chasing and fin nipping at
first. This is normal betta behavior.
They need to figure out their "pecking order" (hierarchy). There will
be the alpha...sex plays no part here and neither does body size, all
the way down to the omega (lowest in rank). You will see a little fin
damage at first. If there is relentless chasing and nipping or it gets
vicious, then the aggressor needs to be removed.
Many males are so excited when added to a tank with females that they
chase then all over the tank at first. This usually settles down
quickly and they soon ignore each other.
Same goes for "safe" tank mates.
Safe meaning non nippers, and fast moving fish, or other very
territorial fish.
Neon or Cardinal Tetras are fine, but most other Tetras are not. Same
goes for the Barb family. Danios are just too fast moving.
Some have luck with the general live bearers, but some are just crappy
tank mates and nip or harrass a male Betta to exhaustion.
Cichlids are out with the exception of some Angelfish. Again, they have
individual personalities as well and some will nip a Bettas fins, and
some Bettas will nip up the long ventrals of the Angels. I personally
house my female Bettas, and a resident male with my non breeding
Angelfish. Only rarely is there nipping happening and then whomever is
doing it is housed differently.
So you see there are many options with Bettas.
Just remember, the larger the tank, the better!
For single males, I love the Eclipse 3 gallon.
For tank mates in these 3 gallon tanks, I like either a couple
Otocinclus cats, or a pair of African Dwarf Frogs,or 3-4 Pygmy Cories.

Gill Passman

November 24th 05, 09:23 AM

Steve wrote:
> Gill Passman wrote:
>
>> Steve wrote:
>>
>>> With all the betta discussion lately, can someone tell me about
>>> bettas in plastic cups? Why are they offered for sale this way? The
>>> losses must be great and the fish don't look attractive for purchase.
>>>
>>> Also, when do the fish go into the plastic cups? Is it for transport,
>>> or are they raised in there? Thanks for any information.
>>>
>>> Steve
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> IMO if you are buying any fish you need to provide them with adequate
>> and suitable accomodation as you would any pet.....I would never keep
>> a fish such as a betta in anything other than a heated, filtered 5
>> gall (UK) tank....it is not possible to buy anything smaller at the
>> reputable places I shop....that being said I do understand that bettas
>> can be kept successfully in smaller, filtered, heated tanks quite
>> happily - although I would think that probably a 2 gall would be the
>> minimum....anything less and without the adequate provisions for what
>> is a tropical fish IMO is cruel on a long term basis - afterall they
>> need room to swim. Now obviously when breeding bettas a 2 gall tank
>> for each of the fry is impractical which is why I believe most
>> reputable breeders would go for a heated room therefore ensuring that
>> the fish are kept at the right temps and smaller containers with more
>> frequent water changes - in most cases, other than the very committed
>> hobbyiest breeding these fish is a business and it is in the breeders
>> interest for the fish to survive...at least til they hit the shops...
>>
>> Now, I don't breed bettas, although I do have two males that both live
>> in their 20L (5UK gall) tanks....I would never consider keeping them
>> in a cup or small bowl...to me, it just doesn't seem right....
>>
>> There is a trend, (horrible market), for selling bettas in
>> vases...they are condemed to living in a small vase with a non-aquatic
>> plant taking up most of the air space (so they had limited real air to
>> breath). I believe the advice was that they would live on the plant
>> roots - but bettas are carnivorous....the idea as far as I can see is
>> that these fish were treated as ornaments rather than live
>> animals....as expendable as a bunch of flowers....what you are
>> describing very much smacks of this type of mentality...."look you can
>> own a fish that can survive in a cup" - absolute rubbish - and by your
>> question I can very much see that you are of the same opinion....
>>
>> All of this is based on my research, what I have heard from other more
>> experienced betta keepers, the contentment of my bettas in their 5
>> gall tanks and a gut feeling that it is just so, so very wrong to
>> provide any living creature with cramped conditions where they just
>> survive rather than have any quality of life....hey, ho JMO
>>
>> Gill
>>
>>
>>
> Gill,
> Thanks for sharing your betta experiences. I've had 3 male bettas in
> long history of keeping aquariums, and two lasted less than a year for
> me. The last one lasted perhaps 1.5 year, and it was in a planted,
> heated, unfiltered 2 gallon plastic aquarium.
>
> Stores housing/ selling bettas in plastic cups is a trend here in
> Canada; its virtually impossible to find bettas in large aquariums in
> the stores. All the betta discussion ;) here lately prompted my
> question. I'm really quite curious about the reasons behind plastic cup
> bettas, although I think the fish stores expect customers to move their
> bettas to something larger than a cup once they get home.
> Steve

Hi Steve,

I've never seen bettas on sale in the UK other than in tanks....maybe
it's the places I go to....

Gill

Koi-lo

November 24th 05, 03:53 PM

"Gill Passman" > wrote in message
news:4385867f$0$38041
> I've never seen bettas on sale in the UK other than in tanks....maybe it's
> the places I go to....
===========================
Here in the USA most are sold in either those small cups or the new larger
16 oz. size.
--
Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastadaisy
~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>

zir©on

November 25th 05, 02:02 AM

If the asians can use tin cans etc to rasie em in a jar would be
heaven to a betta......I seen backyard breeders, mainly those that
rasied and sold them for fighting, when I made a few trips to Thailand
and some of their bettas were extremely nice.....but most were not
bred to export nor bred to obtain colorations, just to fight. They
used predominately aluminum soda cans and old tin cans for their
containers, but changed water every day.
--
\\\|///
( @ @ )
-----------oOOo(_)oOOo---------------

oooO
---------( )----Oooo----------------
\ ( ( )
\_) ) /
(_/
The original frugal ponder! Koi-ahoi mates....

Lord Don

November 25th 05, 01:28 PM

barbs eat betta fins dude.

<dddd> wrote in message ...
>i keep mine in a 120 with tiger barbs and a few other aggressive fish.
> the key is to grow plants to the top so they always have safe spots
> and can swim unnoticed. occasionally when exploring you may see your
> betta rush back to his plants. until the plants grow in you may hang a
> large ordiment from the top, which also gives your betta good
> protection in community tanks.
>
> On Wed, 23 Nov 2005 20:15:11 -0500, Steve > wrote:
>
>>Might a male betta make a wise addition to my planted 90 gallon
>>aquarium? I suspect not, because it has two male blue gourami (possible
>>fighting?) and some fast swimmers such as zebra danios, dwarf neon
>>rainbowfish and one large "miscellaneous" rainbowfish that came in with
>>the dwarfs.
>>
>>Steve
>
>
> Posted Via Usenet.com Premium Usenet Newsgroup Services
> ----------------------------------------------------------
> ** SPEED ** RETENTION ** COMPLETION ** ANONYMITY **
> ----------------------------------------------------------
> http://www.usenet.com

[email protected]

November 25th 05, 07:27 PM

Ditto on the life expectency related to temperature. My bettas in
heated, 75 degree tanks, lived about 2 years from when I hatched them
from eggs. My girlfriend's, who were all in an unheated 10 gallon
tank, are all still alive. The mom of the bettas is now in her 4th
year in a 1 gallon unheated tank (68F/20C) and still quite active and
healthy. She's been fed only four betta pellets per day for most of
her life, which at first I thought was too little, but who am I to say
since hers has outlived most of my current fish.

Keep them separate and unheated for longer life. I personally think
they are fine in cups for short periods of time (ie. in a fish store),
and the liveliness and longevity of my gf's is testiment that smallish
1 gallon tanks are fine.

I keep females in a community tank now, and the hardest part is keeping
the other fish from stealing their pellets (which is a problem, since
my bettas don't eat flakes; only pellets).

<tim><

Koi-lo

November 25th 05, 09:53 PM

> wrote in message
oups.com...
> Ditto on the life expectency related to temperature. My bettas in
> heated, 75 degree tanks, lived about 2 years from when I hatched them
> from eggs. My girlfriend's, who were all in an unheated 10 gallon
> tank, are all still alive. The mom of the bettas is now in her 4th
> year in a 1 gallon unheated tank (68F/20C) and still quite active and
> healthy.

## See! I have heard this before from other bettaphiles. I have no idea
why some people believe they need so much heat to thrive. It just isn't
true. :-)

She's been fed only four betta pellets per day for most of
> her life, which at first I thought was too little, but who am I to say
> since hers has outlived most of my current fish.

## Exactly. Each fish and each fish's living conditions are different.
Since hers are unheated that is probably enough food whereas a heated betta,
with a speeded up metabolism, would need more food. I've been looking the
thermometer in the betta bowls on the windowsill. They range from 72F in
the morning to 76 later in the day when the filtered sunlight hits the jars.
Mine are fed twice a day using a variety of dried betta foods. I may buy
them some frozen glassworms and bloodworms on my next trip to the pet store.
I know my Mickey Mouse platties would love them as well. :-)

> Keep them separate and unheated for longer life. I personally think
> they are fine in cups for short periods of time (ie. in a fish store),
> and the liveliness and longevity of my gf's is testiment that smallish
> 1 gallon tanks are fine.

## I assure they are - as long as they are not neglected, but changed
regularly. I use aged water to do this so as not to kill off the nitrifying
bacteria in the gravel and on the water lettuce.

> I keep females in a community tank now, and the hardest part is keeping
> the other fish from stealing their pellets (which is a problem, since
> my bettas don't eat flakes; only pellets).

## This is another reason I stopped keeping bettas in community tanks years
ago. They never really thrived as the other fish always beat them to the
choicest morsels of food, there was the current from the filters, the
harassment by the other fish who would take nips at even the female bettas
fins etc.
--
Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastadaisy
~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>

NetMax

November 26th 05, 05:45 AM

> wrote in message
oups.com...
> Ditto on the life expectency related to temperature. My bettas in
> heated, 75 degree tanks, lived about 2 years from when I hatched them
> from eggs. My girlfriend's, who were all in an unheated 10 gallon
> tank, are all still alive. The mom of the bettas is now in her 4th
> year in a 1 gallon unheated tank (68F/20C) and still quite active and
> healthy. She's been fed only four betta pellets per day for most of
> her life, which at first I thought was too little, but who am I to say
> since hers has outlived most of my current fish.

That's an interesting observation. It lacks the scientific rigour that I
always like to look for, but it's rare to see controlled experiments on
fish, (especially longevity). In theory, longevity can be decreased by
increasing the temperature (higher metabolism), but this assumes all
other factors are equal, and you are moving away from their optimal
temperature range. If my texts are correct and their range is 70-90F,
breeds at 80F, then they are more likely to be outside their optimal
range in an unheated tank than in an overheated tank. Another variable
is the lower O2 levels in small heated tanks, but again the Betta throws
a wrench into this with their labyrinth organ. I wonder if genetics,
maintenance and not over-feeding are more critical to longevity than the
water's temperature.

> Keep them separate and unheated for longer life. I personally think
> they are fine in cups for short periods of time (ie. in a fish store),

I agree, but this time from experience. Two weeks in a cup didn't seem
to phase them, and while many do very well in a community tank, many also
do very well in relative isolation.

> and the liveliness and longevity of my gf's is testiment that smallish
> 1 gallon tanks are fine.

I wouldn't think the words longevity could be used in the same sentence
as a 1g tank when talking about GF. Goldfish are very long lived, 10-20
years is not unusual. I cannot imagine that occuring in a small
container. Actually this has now become illegal in several parts of the
world.

> I keep females in a community tank now, and the hardest part is keeping
> the other fish from stealing their pellets (which is a problem, since
> my bettas don't eat flakes; only pellets).

I rather like female Bettas. Basically identical in personality, colors
& behavior, but tolerant of each other in the right set-up. Probably
under-rated as compared to the males. I used to keep 20-30 of them in a
planted 60g.
--
www.NetMax.tk

> <tim><

Koi-lo

November 26th 05, 06:29 AM

"NetMax" > wrote in message
.. .
> > wrote in message
> oups.com...
>
>> and the liveliness and longevity of my gf's is testiment that smallish
>> 1 gallon tanks are fine.
>
> I wouldn't think the words longevity could be used in the same sentence as
> a 1g tank when talking about GF. Goldfish are very long lived, 10-20
> years is not unusual. I cannot imagine that occuring in a small
> container. Actually this has now become illegal in several parts of the
> world.
========================
I believe he means his GIRLFRIEND'S not his goldfishes when he used gf's.
--
Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastadaisy
~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>

Steve

November 26th 05, 02:25 PM

Koi-lo wrote:
>
> "NetMax" > wrote in message
> .. .
>
>> > wrote in message
>> oups.com...
>>
>>> and the liveliness and longevity of my gf's is testiment that smallish
>>> 1 gallon tanks are fine.
>>
>>
>> I wouldn't think the words longevity could be used in the same
>> sentence as a 1g tank when talking about GF. Goldfish are very long
>> lived, 10-20 years is not unusual. I cannot imagine that occuring in
>> a small container. Actually this has now become illegal in several
>> parts of the world.
>
> ========================
> I believe he means his GIRLFRIEND'S not his goldfishes when he used gf's.

I read "gf" as goldfish too :) . Perhaps this shows where some of our
(aquarists') priorities are: fish over romance?
Steve

Koi-lo

November 26th 05, 04:10 PM

"Steve" > wrote in message ...
> Koi-lo wrote:
>>
>> "NetMax" > wrote in message
>> .. .
>>
>>> > wrote in message
>>> oups.com...
>>>
>>>> and the liveliness and longevity of my gf's is testiment that smallish
>>>> 1 gallon tanks are fine.
>>>
>>>
>>> I wouldn't think the words longevity could be used in the same sentence
>>> as a 1g tank when talking about GF. Goldfish are very long lived,
>>> 10-20 years is not unusual. I cannot imagine that occuring in a small
>>> container. Actually this has now become illegal in several parts of the
>>> world.
>>
>> ========================
>> I believe he means his GIRLFRIEND'S not his goldfishes when he used gf's.
>
> I read "gf" as goldfish too :) . Perhaps this shows where some of our
> (aquarists') priorities are: fish over romance?
> Steve
================
LOL!!! :-D Fish are addictive and it's a form of love. I knew he
couldn't mean goldfish because he also mentioned a one gallon tank. GF
wouldn't last too long in such a small tank. Not at the rate they grow.
--
Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastadaisy
~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>

Tynk

November 26th 05, 08:34 PM

wrote:
> Ditto on the life expectency related to temperature. My bettas in
> heated, 75 degree tanks, lived about 2 years from when I hatched them
> from eggs. My girlfriend's, who were all in an unheated 10 gallon
> tank, are all still alive. The mom of the bettas is now in her 4th
> year in a 1 gallon unheated tank (68F/20C) and still quite active and
> healthy. She's been fed only four betta pellets per day for most of
> her life, which at first I thought was too little, but who am I to say
> since hers has outlived most of my current fish.
>
> Keep them separate and unheated for longer life. I personally think
> they are fine in cups for short periods of time (ie. in a fish store),
> and the liveliness and longevity of my gf's is testiment that smallish
> 1 gallon tanks are fine.
>
> I keep females in a community tank now, and the hardest part is keeping
> the other fish from stealing their pellets (which is a problem, since
> my bettas don't eat flakes; only pellets).
>
> <tim><
I keep females in a community tank now, and the hardest part is keeping
> the other fish from stealing their pellets (which is a problem, since
> my bettas don't eat flakes; only pellets).

Only pellets? = (
You've never fed them Bloodworms or Brine Shrimp?
Remember, the best diet for fish is a varied diet.

Gill Passman

November 26th 05, 09:24 PM

Tynk wrote:
> wrote:
>
>>Ditto on the life expectency related to temperature. My bettas in
>>heated, 75 degree tanks, lived about 2 years from when I hatched them
>>from eggs. My girlfriend's, who were all in an unheated 10 gallon
>>tank, are all still alive. The mom of the bettas is now in her 4th
>>year in a 1 gallon unheated tank (68F/20C) and still quite active and
>>healthy. She's been fed only four betta pellets per day for most of
>>her life, which at first I thought was too little, but who am I to say
>>since hers has outlived most of my current fish.
>>
>>Keep them separate and unheated for longer life. I personally think
>>they are fine in cups for short periods of time (ie. in a fish store),
>>and the liveliness and longevity of my gf's is testiment that smallish
>>1 gallon tanks are fine.
>>
>>I keep females in a community tank now, and the hardest part is keeping
>>the other fish from stealing their pellets (which is a problem, since
>>my bettas don't eat flakes; only pellets).
>>
>><tim><
>
> I keep females in a community tank now, and the hardest part is keeping
>
>>the other fish from stealing their pellets (which is a problem, since
>>my bettas don't eat flakes; only pellets).
>
>
> Only pellets? = (
> You've never fed them Bloodworms or Brine Shrimp?
> Remember, the best diet for fish is a varied diet.
>
I remember someone posting on this group, and I can't remember who so
apologies for the plagarism but it had an impact on me:-

If Pizza is your favourite food but you wouldn't want to eat it every
day...fish are the same, give them a varied diet the same way as you
would yourself

Gill

Dan Abel

November 27th 05, 12:32 AM

In article >,
"NetMax" > wrote:

> > wrote in message

> > and the liveliness and longevity of my gf's is testiment that smallish
> > 1 gallon tanks are fine.
>
> I wouldn't think the words longevity could be used in the same sentence
> as a 1g tank when talking about GF. Goldfish are very long lived, 10-20
> years is not unusual. I cannot imagine that occuring in a small
> container. Actually this has now become illegal in several parts of the
> world.

I have real problems with this. They are goldfish, not human beings.
The kind of goldfish you put in little tanks are labeled as "feeder
fish" at the store. How can it be crueler to put them in a small tank
where they have a short life than feed them to another fish?

I have had tanks for many years. I have had periods with no tanks. My
son, very young, wanted a pet during one of those periods. I offered a
goldfish. I took a one quart jar out of the recycle. No plants, no
gravel, no nothing. I bought a feeder goldfish. I got a very cheap
container of goldfish food from the supermarket. I carefully trained my
son not to overfeed the fish. With little food, the water didn't go
bad. First of all, there was no spoiled food. Secondly, since the fish
didn't each much, it didn't produce many waste products. Lastly, since
it wasn't getting much food, it didn't outgrow the jar. The fish lived
happily for well over a year.

Some time later, my daughter wanted to do the same thing. I got a jar
and we went to the pet store. I got the third degree. What kind of
tank? What kind of filter? Didn't I understand that I couldn't do
this? I explained that it had worked before. The salesperson said,
"OK, I guess you know what you are doing. Let's get a fish.". It lived
quite a while.

--
Dan Abel

Petaluma, California, USA

NetMax

November 27th 05, 02:55 AM

"Koi-lo" > wrote in message
...
>
> "NetMax" > wrote in message
> .. .
>> > wrote in message
>> oups.com...
>>
>>> and the liveliness and longevity of my gf's is testiment that
>>> smallish
>>> 1 gallon tanks are fine.
>>
>> I wouldn't think the words longevity could be used in the same
>> sentence as a 1g tank when talking about GF. Goldfish are very long
>> lived, 10-20 years is not unusual. I cannot imagine that occuring in
>> a small container. Actually this has now become illegal in several
>> parts of the world.
> ========================
> I believe he means his GIRLFRIEND'S not his goldfishes when he used
> gf's.
> --
> Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
> My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
> http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastadaisy
> ~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>

*whew* my bad, thanks!
--
www.NetMax.tk

NetMax

November 27th 05, 03:32 AM

"Dan Abel" > wrote in message
...
> In article >,
> "NetMax" > wrote:
>
>> > wrote in message
>
>> > and the liveliness and longevity of my gf's is testiment that
>> > smallish
>> > 1 gallon tanks are fine.
>>
>> I wouldn't think the words longevity could be used in the same
>> sentence
>> as a 1g tank when talking about GF. Goldfish are very long lived,
>> 10-20
>> years is not unusual. I cannot imagine that occuring in a small
>> container. Actually this has now become illegal in several parts of
>> the
>> world.
>
> I have real problems with this. They are goldfish, not human beings.
> The kind of goldfish you put in little tanks are labeled as "feeder
> fish" at the store. How can it be crueler to put them in a small tank
> where they have a short life than feed them to another fish?
>
> I have had tanks for many years. I have had periods with no tanks. My
> son, very young, wanted a pet during one of those periods. I offered a
> goldfish. I took a one quart jar out of the recycle. No plants, no
> gravel, no nothing. I bought a feeder goldfish. I got a very cheap
> container of goldfish food from the supermarket. I carefully trained
> my
> son not to overfeed the fish. With little food, the water didn't go
> bad. First of all, there was no spoiled food. Secondly, since the
> fish
> didn't each much, it didn't produce many waste products. Lastly, since
> it wasn't getting much food, it didn't outgrow the jar. The fish lived
> happily for well over a year.
>
> Some time later, my daughter wanted to do the same thing. I got a jar
> and we went to the pet store. I got the third degree. What kind of
> tank? What kind of filter? Didn't I understand that I couldn't do
> this? I explained that it had worked before. The salesperson said,
> "OK, I guess you know what you are doing. Let's get a fish.". It
> lived
> quite a while.
>
> --
> Dan Abel
>
> Petaluma, California, USA

I think the problem is not that undersize containers cannot be done
responsibly, but that they require more education, maintenance and
discipline than is normally exercised, and the recognition as to when the
fish's accommodations need to be upsized. Having been in the trade, I
would support this ban. I have seen too many stunted fish who spent
their lives gasping for air (aren't Goldfish air breathers?) or unable to
eat from the surface because they were longer than the tank was deep. In
most of these cases, their owners were oblivious to anything being wrong.

In your case, having a fish which could live 50 years, live only a year,
is being justified by the fact that it was destined to be someone's meal
within a week anyways. There are many moral decisions made in the
pursuit of this hobby, and I have enough trouble with my own.
--
www.NetMax.tk

Tynk

November 27th 05, 03:35 AM

NetMax wrote:
> > wrote in message
> oups.com...
> > Ditto on the life expectency related to temperature. My bettas in
> > heated, 75 degree tanks, lived about 2 years from when I hatched them
> > from eggs. My girlfriend's, who were all in an unheated 10 gallon
> > tank, are all still alive. The mom of the bettas is now in her 4th
> > year in a 1 gallon unheated tank (68F/20C) and still quite active and
> > healthy. She's been fed only four betta pellets per day for most of
> > her life, which at first I thought was too little, but who am I to say
> > since hers has outlived most of my current fish.
>
> That's an interesting observation. It lacks the scientific rigour that I
> always like to look for, but it's rare to see controlled experiments on
> fish, (especially longevity). In theory, longevity can be decreased by
> increasing the temperature (higher metabolism), but this assumes all
> other factors are equal, and you are moving away from their optimal
> temperature range. If my texts are correct and their range is 70-90F,
> breeds at 80F, then they are more likely to be outside their optimal
> range in an unheated tank than in an overheated tank. Another variable
> is the lower O2 levels in small heated tanks, but again the Betta throws
> a wrench into this with their labyrinth organ. I wonder if genetics,
> maintenance and not over-feeding are more critical to longevity than the
> water's temperature.
>
> > Keep them separate and unheated for longer life. I personally think
> > they are fine in cups for short periods of time (ie. in a fish store),
>
> I agree, but this time from experience. Two weeks in a cup didn't seem
> to phase them, and while many do very well in a community tank, many also
> do very well in relative isolation.
>
> > and the liveliness and longevity of my gf's is testiment that smallish
> > 1 gallon tanks are fine.
>
> I wouldn't think the words longevity could be used in the same sentence
> as a 1g tank when talking about GF. Goldfish are very long lived, 10-20
> years is not unusual. I cannot imagine that occuring in a small
> container. Actually this has now become illegal in several parts of the
> world.
>
> > I keep females in a community tank now, and the hardest part is keeping
> > the other fish from stealing their pellets (which is a problem, since
> > my bettas don't eat flakes; only pellets).
>
> I rather like female Bettas. Basically identical in personality, colors
> & behavior, but tolerant of each other in the right set-up. Probably
> under-rated as compared to the males. I used to keep 20-30 of them in a
> planted 60g.
> --
> www.NetMax.tk
>
> > <tim><
NetMax wrote:
> I rather like female Bettas. Basically identical in personality, colors
> & behavior, but tolerant of each other in the right set-up. Probably
> under-rated as compared to the males. I used to keep 20-30 of them in a
> planted 60g.

I totally agree!
I have recommended to folks countless times to try a bunch of females
in a larger tank.
(more so on another group I post on), but never the less...the answer
is the same.
They are so interesting to watch. I sit everyday next to my 75g and
watch them interact with each other. I rarely have a barred female in
the tank as well. I love sending pictures to folks who claim they are
ugly, and not colorful at all. = )~
No matter how many times I explain that the blanched out coloring with
horizontal barring isn't their true color, that it is only body
language (saying I'm not a threat to your rank to the other dominant
fish, or fright), and that they color up quickly when in a suitable
tank they have a hard time believing it until I send them photos.
I love the fact that when I spawned them, I'd always get more females
than I do males.
It's like having a tank full of male Plakats all in one tank. = )

IDzine01

November 28th 05, 03:17 PM

I hear this all the time. "I can't upgrade from 1 gallon to 5 gallons
because I can't afford it." While I fully appreciate not having a lot
of spare cash to spend I have little sympathy for someone who can't
dish out $5 to care for their pet properly. Whenever the discussion
arises I do what I can to point the person to money saving options.
Let's face it, few home aquarists are independently wealthy. Because of
this, however, there are dozens of brilliant money saving ideas out
there. $1 aquariums on Craigslist, free tanks on Freecycle and lots of
giveaways or auctions at local fish clubs. Let's not forget all the
do-it-yourself ideas generated by savvy hobbyists. The fact is, many of
these people aren't interested in a cheap upgrade. I give them 10
options and they have a reason why each one won't work. I don't know if
it's laziness or they purely don't care if their pet lives or dies.

The problem is too many people don't view fish as family pets to be
nurtured and cared for. If I went out and bought a horse I couldn't
afford you can bet the whole neighborhood would be in an uproar and the
police would be knocking down my door. Although, I suppose no one would
sell me the horse in the first place. I guess that goes back to the
problem with LFSs.

Steve

November 28th 05, 03:38 PM

IDzine01 wrote:
>
>
> The problem is too many people don't view fish as family pets to be
> nurtured and cared for.

Fish are only fish, and they're nothing like cats, dogs or even guinea
pigs. Many of us even eat fish, although usually not aquarium fish.

I agree that living things brought into the home should be cared for.
With aquariums, we're often after an attractive display, and that
requires healthy fish and good fish care. However, let's not get all
weepy-eyed about them.

Steve

Tynk

November 28th 05, 03:45 PM

IDzine01 wrote:
> I hear this all the time. "I can't upgrade from 1 gallon to 5 gallons
> because I can't afford it." While I fully appreciate not having a lot
> of spare cash to spend I have little sympathy for someone who can't
> dish out $5 to care for their pet properly. Whenever the discussion
> arises I do what I can to point the person to money saving options.
> Let's face it, few home aquarists are independently wealthy. Because of
> this, however, there are dozens of brilliant money saving ideas out
> there. $1 aquariums on Craigslist, free tanks on Freecycle and lots of
> giveaways or auctions at local fish clubs. Let's not forget all the
> do-it-yourself ideas generated by savvy hobbyists. The fact is, many of
> these people aren't interested in a cheap upgrade. I give them 10
> options and they have a reason why each one won't work. I don't know if
> it's laziness or they purely don't care if their pet lives or dies.
>
> The problem is too many people don't view fish as family pets to be
> nurtured and cared for. If I went out and bought a horse I couldn't
> afford you can bet the whole neighborhood would be in an uproar and the
> police would be knocking down my door. Although, I suppose no one would
> sell me the horse in the first place. I guess that goes back to the
> problem with LFSs.

The problem is too many people don't view fish as family pets to be
> nurtured and cared for. If I went out and bought a horse I couldn't
> afford you can bet the whole neighborhood would be in an uproar and the
> police would be knocking down my door. Although, I suppose no one would
> sell me the horse in the first place. I guess that goes back to the
> problem with LFSs.

I agree with you.
I split the blame 50/50. There's always the people who simply don't
care no matter how much correct info the shops out there give.
Howerver, add the countless employees in pet shops and other stores
such as Walmart, Meijer, etc that sell critters and fish that don't
have a clue.
I was at Meijer last night checking to see whether or not they had
cleaned their tanks (A wall of tank that was just switched over to a
central filtering system).
They been set up for about a month now and the employees haven't
touched them since.
The debris built up on top of the gravel is so disgusting that the fish
are swimming past the front of the tanks with signs they've made of
plant leaves that read "save us!" = /
That is on the tanks that you can see into. Most tanks are so covered
in algae that you can't see in it.
I spoke with the store manager a couple night ago and explained the
situation. I was informed by her that they had gotten this great new
filter that takes care of everything (central filter that runs all the
tanks). I explained how it worked and the normal maintenance that they
still need to do with this "great new filter" (grr!) and told me "Wow.
They sure aren''t doing that and don't know that they need to be."
When I checked last night (I was shopping there anyway), the tanks were
in the same condition. = (
There was a man that works there, tells so much bull crappy to the
customers that it's not only wrong, dangerous for the fish, but sad
too.
I stood there while he sold a lady a Goldfish (A Comet) and she asked
him how big it will grow. He held his hands out to about 6-7 inches
apart. As if that wasn't bad enough, he then told her it will only grow
to the size of the tank and that they don't live very long either.
= O
He then started to brag that he's been in the hobby for 20 yrs and has
learned so much since he's been working at Meijer. Again.... = O
I couldn't help but explain (nicely even though I wanted to smack some
sense into him), that what he told that lady wasn't exactly correct. I
asked if he wanted to know the facts about Goldies, and he said sure.
After I told him the size, the tank requirements, how long their
lifespan really is, and that no fish ever grows to the size of the tank
and what actually happens if they survive being stunted, his eyes about
popped out and said WOW, I did not know any of that. I then said if you
have a puter at home you could easily research all the fish facts
regarding all the types that they sell, etc.
I didn't even mention he shouldn't be selling and advising people that
it's fine to house as many Teddy Bear hammies as they want to buy, as
long as they have a large fish tank to house them in. = O
I didn't want to over load him.
There is one lady that works in the pet dept that knows me. She's so
sweet. She'll see me across the store shopping and come drag me over
and help her customers. ; )
She calls me the Betta lady. = )~

Koi-lo

November 28th 05, 04:43 PM

"IDzine01" > wrote in message
ups.com...
>I hear this all the time. "I can't upgrade from 1 gallon to 5 gallons
> because I can't afford it." While I fully appreciate not having a lot
> of spare cash to spend I have little sympathy for someone who can't
> dish out $5 to care for their pet properly.

$$ I do sympathize with someone who desperately wants a few fish but is
very, very poor. Who are we to deny them? All we can do is suggest what is
really needed to keep the pet alive and hope they come back and get the
right equipment. :-( Add to that they probably know next to nothing about
the proper care of fish, any fish. So the shop keeper sells them a cheap
bowl and a betta or a few feeder goldfish. :-((( It's been that way for
as long as I can remember.

Whenever the discussion
> arises I do what I can to point the person to money saving options.
> Let's face it, few home aquarists are independently wealthy.

$$ Not where I live. A good many have 6 figure incomes. They think
nothing of buying a sal****er set up for a few grand or spending $200 on a
koi for their pond. OTOH I've seen poor immigrants count the change in
their pockets to pay for a goldfish for their child.

Because of
> this, however, there are dozens of brilliant money saving ideas out
> there. $1 aquariums on Craigslist, free tanks on Freecycle and lots of
> giveaways or auctions at local fish clubs.

$$ Most people don't know these things or if a disinterested parent, don't
care and wont spend the time searching cheap or free things out. If they're
truly poor they probably don't have a computer and don't think to hit a few
flea markets or garage sales. On this topic... In the last few years I've
seldom seen good deals on fish related equipment, even in the Penny Pincher
newspaper. Those I've been seeing are almost as expensive as buying in the
pet shops. On top of that they're almost always filthy and covered with
dead algae and white crust from the water here. The gravel is almost always
some garish color such as electric blue or red. :-( You have no way to
know if the pumps still work, if the tank leaks or if the reflector is burnt
out.......

Let's not forget all the
> do-it-yourself ideas generated by savvy hobbyists. The fact is, many of
> these people aren't interested in a cheap upgrade. I give them 10
> options and they have a reason why each one won't work. I don't know if
> it's laziness or they purely don't care if their pet lives or dies.

$$ If it's a disinterested parent just buying a fish to silence a whining
child I believe that's the answer.

> The problem is too many people don't view fish as family pets to be
> nurtured and cared for. If I went out and bought a horse I couldn't
> afford you can bet the whole neighborhood would be in an uproar and the
> police would be knocking down my door. Although, I suppose no one would
> sell me the horse in the first place. I guess that goes back to the
> problem with LFSs.

$$ How can they legally refuse to sell fish to someone they know will not
take care of them? And you can't force people to spend $40 on a small setup
for a 19¢ feeder fish or a $3.00 betta. Sometimes the parent becomes hooked
and they do come back and buy a proper setup, get addicted to fishkeeping
and become good customers. I've seen that happen as well.
--
Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastadaisy
~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>

Koi-lo

November 28th 05, 04:52 PM

"Steve" > wrote in message
.. .
> I agree that living things brought into the home should be cared for. With
> aquariums, we're often after an attractive display, and that requires
> healthy fish and good fish care. However, let's not get all weepy-eyed
> about them.
==================
I don't know if this still holds true but I read some statistics some years
back that fully 80% of all tropical fish are dead within a few weeks of
being sold. As I recall ignorance on the part of the owner and parasite
infestation were the main causes. Neglect after the novelty wore off was
also high on the list. There may be newer statistics out there now.

I don't know if it applies to marine aquariums. It probably does.
--
Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastadaisy
~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>

IDzine01

November 28th 05, 05:49 PM

>$$ How can they legally refuse to sell fish to someone they know will not
>take care of them? And you can't force people to spend $40 on a small setup
>for a 19¢ feeder fish or a $3.00 betta.

I would never suggest refusing someone a fish based on income. All I'm
saying is, if you get the fish home and then find out that you can't
afford to keep it in a proper environment then it's your responsibility
to do the right thing. Return the fish or upgrade. If people are
spending $40 for a betta tank it's not because they have no other
choice. There are so many deals out there I can't even keep up with
them all.

I guess I'm just sick of all the whining and excuses.

>Sometimes the parent becomes hooked
>and they do come back and buy a proper setup, get addicted to fish keeping
>and become good customers. I've seen that happen as well.

Actually, I've seen that too. It is a great thing. Heck, it happened to
me. My tanks were way too small when I started but I got hooked and
upgraded. My frustration isn't with newbies that don't know better it
comes when people learn proper care and choose to ignore it.

IDzine01

November 28th 05, 05:56 PM

I agree to a point Steve. Aquarium fish are not cats or dogs. I'm also
not saying everyone should buy a 50 gal for their betta. I'm just
saying basic requirements should be met. Food, water (hehe, obviously)
and proper shelter. I'd say the same thing about an ant farm.

Koi-lo

November 28th 05, 08:11 PM

"IDzine01" > wrote in message
oups.com...
>$$ How can they legally refuse to sell fish to someone they know will not
>take care of them? And you can't force people to spend $40 on a small
>setup
>for a 19¢ feeder fish or a $3.00 betta.

I would never suggest refusing someone a fish based on income. All I'm
saying is, if you get the fish home and then find out that you can't
afford to keep it in a proper environment then it's your responsibility
to do the right thing. Return the fish or upgrade.

$$ This I agree with but I don't think people will do it. Chances are the
fish will be dead before they find out what they did wrong or what the fish
needs to survive. :-(

If people are
spending $40 for a betta tank it's not because they have no other
choice. There are so many deals out there I can't even keep up with
them all.

$$ But they must know where to look! In my area you pay almost the same
price now for used as you pay in the stores for new. I can't find any 2
gallon tanks for less than $10 each.

I guess I'm just sick of all the whining and excuses.

$$ Who isn't? But people are people and nothing changes.......

>Sometimes the parent becomes hooked
>and they do come back and buy a proper setup, get addicted to fish keeping
>and become good customers. I've seen that happen as well.

Actually, I've seen that too. It is a great thing. Heck, it happened to
me. My tanks were way too small when I started but I got hooked and
upgraded. My frustration isn't with newbies that don't know better it
comes when people learn proper care and choose to ignore it.

$$ That takes you back to those who don't care as it's a kid's 19¢ fish,
those who live in rooms with no space for a tank and those who really can't
afford to spend $40+ for a fishtank set-up.
I think the law should force the stores to hand out brochures with some
basic information on fish care instead of just handing the fish to anyone
with a few bucks to spend........
--
Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastadaisy
~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>

NetMax

November 29th 05, 01:25 AM

"Koi-lo" > wrote in message
...
>
> "IDzine01" > wrote in message
> ups.com...
<snip>

> $$ How can they legally refuse to sell fish to someone they know will
> not take care of them? And you can't force people to spend $40 on a
> small setup for a 19¢ feeder fish or a $3.00 betta. Sometimes the
> parent becomes hooked and they do come back and buy a proper setup, get
> addicted to fishkeeping and become good customers. I've seen that
> happen as well.

Only to this point, and not to take it out of context, but I have refused
to sell fish to customers. When someone wants to buy 2 Bettas and
doesn't need any food (they want to fight them for amusement), or someone
who wants to overfill a tank with no consideration about cycling, I
politely refuse and send them on their way.

I later checked with corporate mgmt and they confirmed that a store's
employees are under no obligation to sell any product. Customers do not
have a 'right' to a purchase. Sales associates can refuse a sale on many
grounds, such as the product will be used in an illegal manner, or in a
manner which will cause harm. While a store certainly wants to sell
products, when the products are living creatures, the sales associates
are expected to use some judgement and discretion. If they judge the
sale irresponsible, they can seek out a manager to refuse the sale with
some discretion. Furthermore, if the customer become angry and leaves in
a huff, then that was not the kind of customer the store is looking to
for repeat business, so good riddance.

I'm not saying that this is a widely applied corporate policy, but saying
stores legally have to sell something is not true, at least to the best
of my understanding in Canada.
--
www.NetMax.tk

> Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
> My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
> http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastadaisy
> ~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>

Beano

November 29th 05, 05:43 AM

Did someone say something about bettas costing $3 ??? In Australia, it
costs $15 for a male veil tail. Very expensive for a fish that only
lives for 2 years and are reasonably old when purchased. The females
cost about $10 here.

Dr Engelbert Buxbaum

November 29th 05, 09:43 AM

Koi-lo wrote:

> I believe
> heating them to 80 F speeds their life processes and shortens their lives.
> I can't prove this - it's just been my experience with the bettas I've had
> over the years. I only heated the breeding tanks and young fry.

Lower temperatures (within reason, of course) slow the metabolism of
cold-blooded animals and hence prolong life. It is a bit like having a
clock go slower ;-). I am not sure whether that has been described for
Betta, but I have seeen literature on this for crabs.

Slight underfeeding also increases life expectancy, even in mammals. The
molecular reason for this is in the process of being elucidated (google
for Sir-2, if interested).

> ## Speaking for myself - I would rather keep valued bettas alone.

I have them (1 m, 2 f) here with neon tetras and otos, this seems to
work very well. However, the male had been with neons in the shop, so
was used to their presence.

James Evans

November 29th 05, 03:27 PM

An old friend of mine summed up this mentality in people very well once
when he said...

"Fish are furniture."

He was joking with me at the time, but it seems to be the way a lot of
people view that goldfish or betta in a bowl.

James

"IDzine01" > wrote in message
ups.com...
>I hear this all the time. "I can't upgrade from 1 gallon to 5 gallons
> because I can't afford it." While I fully appreciate not having a lot
> of spare cash to spend I have little sympathy for someone who can't
> dish out $5 to care for their pet properly. Whenever the discussion
> arises I do what I can to point the person to money saving options.
> Let's face it, few home aquarists are independently wealthy. Because of
> this, however, there are dozens of brilliant money saving ideas out
> there. $1 aquariums on Craigslist, free tanks on Freecycle and lots of
> giveaways or auctions at local fish clubs. Let's not forget all the
> do-it-yourself ideas generated by savvy hobbyists. The fact is, many of
> these people aren't interested in a cheap upgrade. I give them 10
> options and they have a reason why each one won't work. I don't know if
> it's laziness or they purely don't care if their pet lives or dies.
>
> The problem is too many people don't view fish as family pets to be
> nurtured and cared for. If I went out and bought a horse I couldn't
> afford you can bet the whole neighborhood would be in an uproar and the
> police would be knocking down my door. Although, I suppose no one would
> sell me the horse in the first place. I guess that goes back to the
> problem with LFSs.
>

IDzine01

November 29th 05, 03:51 PM

Wow. $15 Australian equates to about $11 US. That's still expensive. I
wonder why.

James Evans

November 29th 05, 04:00 PM

My experience with putting a betta in a community tank wasn't a good
one. I had been told that a single male betta would be fine in a community
tank, so I moved my betta to the community tank. He seemed pretty happy at
first, but by morning he'd been beaten up pretty badly by the other fish (I
suspect most of the damage was done by a gourami.) I moved him back to his
little 1.5 gallon filtered tank and he recovered, though his fins never did
grow back completely. I had the fish about 3 years total, about half of
which was after his visit to the community.

Oddly enough, I haven't had another betta until just a couple weeks ago.
My girlfriend decided that my various tanks weren't sufficient and wanted a
fish of her own, so I dug the ol' 1.5 gallon out of the closet, cleaned it
up, added a new bubblestone and airline tubing for the UGF, and it now
houses "Pinky."

James

"Steve" > wrote in message
. ..
> Thanks, that's informative. As mentioned to another poster, I haven't had
> great success with bettas. The single male bettas I kept in approx 15 gal
> community aquariums with other small fish each lasted about 9mo to 1 year.
> The one I recently kept by itself in a heated, planted, unfiltered 2
> gallon aquarium lasted about 1.5 years. This raises a couple of questions:
>
> Are bettas relatively old when shipped, and expected to live only another
> year?
>
> Are bettas healthier and happier when kept by themselves?
>
> Might a male betta make a wise addition to my planted 90 gallon aquarium?
> I suspect not, because it has two male blue gourami (possible fighting?)
> and some fast swimmers such as zebra danios, dwarf neon rainbowfish and
> one large "miscellaneous" rainbowfish that came in with the dwarfs.
>
> Steve

Gill Passman

November 29th 05, 05:18 PM

IDzine01 wrote:
> Wow. $15 Australian equates to about $11 US. That's still expensive. I
> wonder why.
>

Bettas cost between £5 and £7 sterling over here depending on the
quality of the fish. Females are a bit cheaper....

Gill

James Evans

November 29th 05, 07:48 PM

$3 - $4 is typical here in the US (USD obviously.)

"Beano" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> Did someone say something about bettas costing $3 ??? In Australia, it
> costs $15 for a male veil tail. Very expensive for a fish that only
> lives for 2 years and are reasonably old when purchased. The females
> cost about $10 here.
>

Koi-lo

November 29th 05, 11:11 PM

"NetMax" > wrote in message
.. .
> I'm not saying that this is a widely applied corporate policy, but saying
> stores legally have to sell something is not true, at least to the best of
> my understanding in Canada.
======================
Here in the USA you can be sure a lawsuit would soon commence...... :-(
--
Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastadaisy
~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>

Koi-lo

November 29th 05, 11:26 PM

"Beano" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> Did someone say something about bettas costing $3 ??? In Australia, it
> costs $15 for a male veil tail. Very expensive for a fish that only
> lives for 2 years and are reasonably old when purchased. The females
> cost about $10 here.
=============================
Regular bettas in my area cost $2.99 to $4.99 each (TN USA). The fancy ones
cost about $2 more. Most are not old from what I see in the local stores.
Females aren't always easy to find. They will run $1 or so less than the
males.
--
Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastadaisy
~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>

Gill Passman

November 29th 05, 11:57 PM

Koi-lo wrote:
>
> "NetMax" > wrote in message
> .. .
>
>> I'm not saying that this is a widely applied corporate policy, but saying
>> stores legally have to sell something is not true, at least to the
>> best of
>> my understanding in Canada.
>
> ======================
> Here in the USA you can be sure a lawsuit would soon commence...... :-(

This rule also applies in the UK...I believe it has something to do with
the sale of livestock rather than any other law...my local stores will
totally NOT sell fish unless they can be as sure as possible that these
pets will be properly cared for....no lawsuit in the UK would win
against a retailer refusing to sell anything alive to an unsuitable home

Today, I have seen in the press that our largest supermarket chain has
refused to sell a certain brand of chocolate to someone as it went
against their quality principles....maybe it's time that there was some
legislation in the US protecting livestock (and chocolate - being
flippant) being sold into unsuitable hands....

Honestly, I think if you cannot provide a proper home for a pet you
should not be buying it....I don't discriminate against a mammal, bird
or fish in this....if you can't provide a proper home it is cruel...part
of pet owning is responsibility for the creature you are giving a home
to....I don't care what it is, I don't care how much money someone
has...if they buy it they need to provide the care for it and if they
can't afford to house it suitably they shouldn't be buying it in the
first place...end of story...

and goodnight
Gill

NetMax

November 30th 05, 02:34 AM

"Gill Passman" > wrote in message
.. .
> IDzine01 wrote:
>> Wow. $15 Australian equates to about $11 US. That's still expensive. I
>> wonder why.
>>
>
> Bettas cost between £5 and £7 sterling over here depending on the
> quality of the fish. Females are a bit cheaper....
>
> Gill

$4 to $6 cdn, so North America seems to be in sync. At £5 to £7 you
might be paying the most.
--
www.NetMax.tk

Koi-lo

November 30th 05, 02:59 AM

"Gill Passman" > wrote in message
.. .
> Koi-lo wrote:
>>
>> "NetMax" > wrote in message
>> .. .
>>
>>> I'm not saying that this is a widely applied corporate policy, but
>>> saying
>>> stores legally have to sell something is not true, at least to the best
>>> of
>>> my understanding in Canada.
>>
>> ======================
>> Here in the USA you can be sure a lawsuit would soon commence...... :-(
>
> This rule also applies in the UK...I believe it has something to do with
> the sale of livestock rather than any other law...my local stores will
> totally NOT sell fish unless they can be as sure as possible that these
> pets will be properly cared for....no lawsuit in the UK would win against
> a retailer refusing to sell anything alive to an unsuitable home

$$ In the USA you'd have to have PROOF the home was unsuitable. People here
sue for the least little thing. One woman got rich suing McDonald's because
SHE spilt hot coffee on her own crotch! Surely you heard about that one.
How do the stores in your country make sure the home is suitable for all the
pets they sell?

> Today, I have seen in the press that our largest supermarket chain has
> refused to sell a certain brand of chocolate to someone as it went against
> their quality principles....maybe it's time that there was some
> legislation in the US protecting livestock (and chocolate - being
> flippant) being sold into unsuitable hands....

$$ I wish there was - there isn't. People who are seldom home buy cats to
live in virtual isolation. They buy huge dogs to languish in tiny
efficiency apartments. They buy expensive birds and hang their cages by
open windows or above air conditioning vents. They buy a bag of koi for 100
gallon unfiltered preformed ponds.....

> Honestly, I think if you cannot provide a proper home for a pet you should
> not be buying it....I don't discriminate against a mammal, bird or fish in
> this....if you can't provide a proper home it is cruel...part of pet
> owning is responsibility for the creature you are giving a home to....I
> don't care what it is, I don't care how much money someone has...if they
> buy it they need to provide the care for it and if they can't afford to
> house it suitably they shouldn't be buying it in the first place...end of
> story...

$$ There is no way to know how they will care for it once they leave the pet
store or breeders facilities. That's probably the reason we don't have such
laws here.

> and goodnight
> Gill
--
Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastadaisy
~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>

NetMax

November 30th 05, 04:06 AM

"Koi-lo" > wrote in message
.com...
>
> "Gill Passman" > wrote in message
> .. .
>> Koi-lo wrote:
>>>
>>> "NetMax" > wrote in message
>>> .. .
>>>
>>>> I'm not saying that this is a widely applied corporate policy, but
>>>> saying
>>>> stores legally have to sell something is not true, at least to the
>>>> best of
>>>> my understanding in Canada.
>>>
>>> ======================
>>> Here in the USA you can be sure a lawsuit would soon commence......
>>> :-(
>>
>> This rule also applies in the UK...I believe it has something to do
>> with the sale of livestock rather than any other law...my local stores
>> will totally NOT sell fish unless they can be as sure as possible that
>> these pets will be properly cared for....no lawsuit in the UK would
>> win against a retailer refusing to sell anything alive to an
>> unsuitable home
>
> $$ In the USA you'd have to have PROOF the home was unsuitable. People
> here sue for the least little thing. One woman got rich suing
> McDonald's because SHE spilt hot coffee on her own crotch! Surely you
> heard about that one. How do the stores in your country make sure the
> home is suitable for all the pets they sell?
>
>> Today, I have seen in the press that our largest supermarket chain has
>> refused to sell a certain brand of chocolate to someone as it went
>> against their quality principles....maybe it's time that there was
>> some legislation in the US protecting livestock (and chocolate - being
>> flippant) being sold into unsuitable hands....
>
> $$ I wish there was - there isn't. People who are seldom home buy cats
> to live in virtual isolation. They buy huge dogs to languish in tiny
> efficiency apartments. They buy expensive birds and hang their cages
> by open windows or above air conditioning vents. They buy a bag of koi
> for 100 gallon unfiltered preformed ponds.....
>
>> Honestly, I think if you cannot provide a proper home for a pet you
>> should not be buying it....I don't discriminate against a mammal, bird
>> or fish in this....if you can't provide a proper home it is
>> cruel...part of pet owning is responsibility for the creature you are
>> giving a home to....I don't care what it is, I don't care how much
>> money someone has...if they buy it they need to provide the care for
>> it and if they can't afford to house it suitably they shouldn't be
>> buying it in the first place...end of story...

> $$ There is no way to know how they will care for it once they leave
> the pet store or breeders facilities. That's probably the reason we
> don't have such laws here.

If I might be so brash, that sounds like a cop-out. I never had trouble
establishing the conditions the fish were going into. I wasn't a nazi
grilling them. I'd just conversationally inquire about the tank-mates,
foods given, number of fish, size of tank. Almost 100% of them seemed
very eager to discuss their hobby with someone who cared and showed
knowledge. Most people taking the fish into an abusive application were
unaware of it, and we informed them regarding growth rates and eventual
size (usually keeping Arowanas, Oscars, Koi, Pacus and TinFoil barbs out
of 5 to 10g tanks). The odd one would still tell me the truth, but
simply didn't care or it was a cultural thing. Only once did someone
outright lie, and it was quite obvious.

Your attitude sounds like the same cop-out used in the US regarding gun
control (or lack of), so maybe it's a cultural 'freedom' thing. Almost
seems like the freedom being protected, is to take the easy way out.
--
www.NetMax.tk *stumbles off soapbox he didn't notice was there*

>> and goodnight
>> Gill
> --
> Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
> My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
> http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastadaisy
> ~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>
>
>
>

Tynk

November 30th 05, 04:37 AM

James Evans wrote:
> My experience with putting a betta in a community tank wasn't a good
> one. I had been told that a single male betta would be fine in a community
> tank, so I moved my betta to the community tank. He seemed pretty happy at
> first, but by morning he'd been beaten up pretty badly by the other fish (I
> suspect most of the damage was done by a gourami.) I moved him back to his
> little 1.5 gallon filtered tank and he recovered, though his fins never did
> grow back completely. I had the fish about 3 years total, about half of
> which was after his visit to the community.
>
> Oddly enough, I haven't had another betta until just a couple weeks ago.
> My girlfriend decided that my various tanks weren't sufficient and wanted a
> fish of her own, so I dug the ol' 1.5 gallon out of the closet, cleaned it
> up, added a new bubblestone and airline tubing for the UGF, and it now
> houses "Pinky."
>
> James
>
> "Steve" > wrote in message
> . ..
> > Thanks, that's informative. As mentioned to another poster, I haven't had
> > great success with bettas. The single male bettas I kept in approx 15 gal
> > community aquariums with other small fish each lasted about 9mo to 1 year.
> > The one I recently kept by itself in a heated, planted, unfiltered 2
> > gallon aquarium lasted about 1.5 years. This raises a couple of questions:
> >
> > Are bettas relatively old when shipped, and expected to live only another
> > year?
> >
> > Are bettas healthier and happier when kept by themselves?
> >
> > Might a male betta make a wise addition to my planted 90 gallon aquarium?
> > I suspect not, because it has two male blue gourami (possible fighting?)
> > and some fast swimmers such as zebra danios, dwarf neon rainbowfish and
> > one large "miscellaneous" rainbowfish that came in with the dwarfs.
> >
> > Steve
James Evans wrote:
> My experience with putting a betta in a community tank wasn't a good
> one. I had been told that a single male betta would be fine in a community
> tank, so I moved my betta to the community tank. He seemed pretty happy at
> first, but by morning he'd been beaten up pretty badly by the other fish (I
> suspect most of the damage was done by a gourami.)

Hi James....
You must not have known that you shouldn't mix Bettas and Gouramis.
They're too closely related, and 99% of the time the Betta is going to
get shredded.
For the most part, with suitable tank mates, and depending on the
individual personality of each Betta, it's usually fine to house them
with other fish, as long as they are not known nippers. The exception
is any fish in the anabantid family (air breathers).

Tynk

November 30th 05, 04:50 AM

Koi-lo wrote:
> "Beano" > wrote in message
> oups.com...
> > Did someone say something about bettas costing $3 ??? In Australia, it
> > costs $15 for a male veil tail. Very expensive for a fish that only
> > lives for 2 years and are reasonably old when purchased. The females
> > cost about $10 here.
> =============================
> Regular bettas in my area cost $2.99 to $4.99 each (TN USA). The fancy ones
> cost about $2 more. Most are not old from what I see in the local stores.
> Females aren't always easy to find. They will run $1 or so less than the
> males.
> --
> Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
> My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
> http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastadaisy
> ~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>
Most are not old from what I see in the local stores.
> Females aren't always easy to find.
This is quite a generalization.
It really depends on the individual stores in the towns people live in.
When it comes to the chain stores...98% of their stock is fully grown
males. Petsmart do not carry females at all. They used to many years
ago, but stopped.
When it comes to locally owned shops,it depends on where they get their
stock, as to the ages of the fish and whether or not they carry
females.
If the shops out by you normally *only* sell young males, figure
yourself quitelucky as your town is a minority. Ditto with having
females in stock.
There are constantly folks posting here and a few other groups I visit,
and many emails coming directly to me asking where they can find
females without having to mail order them. I personally am the reason
why one particular PetCo always orders them, and am the reason why 2
other local mom and pop type shops even started carrying the females.
Since those 2 local shops, and the one PetCo started stocking them on a
regular basis, they can't keep them in stock! Basically...you have to
be there when the truck comes in...I'm not kidding either. There's one
manager at this PetCo that will call me up, or even save certain color
lines or fin variations that I prefer. My hubby gets a kick out of
that.
He saw PetCo on the caller ID when the phone rang one day (it was that
manager) and he thought it was so funny that a pet store was calling me
to let me know they had certain fish in that day. Of course I though
it was perfectly normal. lol = )~

Tynk

November 30th 05, 04:56 AM

Gill Passman wrote:
> Koi-lo wrote:
> >
> > "NetMax" > wrote in message
> > .. .
> >
> >> I'm not saying that this is a widely applied corporate policy, but saying
> >> stores legally have to sell something is not true, at least to the
> >> best of
> >> my understanding in Canada.
> >
> > ======================
> > Here in the USA you can be sure a lawsuit would soon commence...... :-(
>
> This rule also applies in the UK...I believe it has something to do with
> the sale of livestock rather than any other law...my local stores will
> totally NOT sell fish unless they can be as sure as possible that these
> pets will be properly cared for....no lawsuit in the UK would win
> against a retailer refusing to sell anything alive to an unsuitable home
>
> Today, I have seen in the press that our largest supermarket chain has
> refused to sell a certain brand of chocolate to someone as it went
> against their quality principles....maybe it's time that there was some
> legislation in the US protecting livestock (and chocolate - being
> flippant) being sold into unsuitable hands....
>
> Honestly, I think if you cannot provide a proper home for a pet you
> should not be buying it....I don't discriminate against a mammal, bird
> or fish in this....if you can't provide a proper home it is cruel...part
> of pet owning is responsibility for the creature you are giving a home
> to....I don't care what it is, I don't care how much money someone
> has...if they buy it they need to provide the care for it and if they
> can't afford to house it suitably they shouldn't be buying it in the
> first place...end of story...
>
> and goodnight
> Gill

::Standing up clapping::
::Wipes a tear from my eye::
This is worth repeating a million times!!!!
Bravo my dear.

> Honestly, I think if you cannot provide a proper home for a pet you
> should not be buying it....I don't discriminate against a mammal, bird
> or fish in this....if you can't provide a proper home it is cruel...part
> of pet owning is responsibility for the creature you are giving a home
> to....I don't care what it is, I don't care how much money someone
> has...if they buy it they need to provide the care for it and if they
> can't afford to house it suitably they shouldn't be buying it in the
> first place...end of story...
>
> and goodnight
> Gill

Daniel Morrow

November 30th 05, 05:31 AM

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Bottom posted.

- --
You can find my public key at https://keyserver1.pgp.com
"NetMax" > wrote in message
.. .
> "Koi-lo" > wrote in message
> .com...
> >
> > "Gill Passman" > wrote in
message
> > .. .
> >> Koi-lo wrote:
> >>>
> >>> "NetMax" > wrote in message
> >>> .. .
> >>>
> >>>> I'm not saying that this is a widely applied corporate policy,
but
> >>>> saying
> >>>> stores legally have to sell something is not true, at least to
the
> >>>> best of
> >>>> my understanding in Canada.
> >>>
> >>> ======================
> >>> Here in the USA you can be sure a lawsuit would soon
commence......
> >>> :-(
> >>
> >> This rule also applies in the UK...I believe it has something to
do
> >> with the sale of livestock rather than any other law...my local
stores
> >> will totally NOT sell fish unless they can be as sure as
possible that
> >> these pets will be properly cared for....no lawsuit in the UK
would
> >> win against a retailer refusing to sell anything alive to an
> >> unsuitable home
> >
> > $$ In the USA you'd have to have PROOF the home was unsuitable.
People
> > here sue for the least little thing. One woman got rich suing
> > McDonald's because SHE spilt hot coffee on her own crotch!
Surely you
> > heard about that one. How do the stores in your country make sure
the
> > home is suitable for all the pets they sell?
> >
> >> Today, I have seen in the press that our largest supermarket
chain has
> >> refused to sell a certain brand of chocolate to someone as it
went
> >> against their quality principles....maybe it's time that there
was
> >> some legislation in the US protecting livestock (and chocolate -
being
> >> flippant) being sold into unsuitable hands....
> >
> > $$ I wish there was - there isn't. People who are seldom home
buy cats
> > to live in virtual isolation. They buy huge dogs to languish in
tiny
> > efficiency apartments. They buy expensive birds and hang their
cages
> > by open windows or above air conditioning vents. They buy a bag
of koi
> > for 100 gallon unfiltered preformed ponds.....
> >
> >> Honestly, I think if you cannot provide a proper home for a pet
you
> >> should not be buying it....I don't discriminate against a
mammal, bird
> >> or fish in this....if you can't provide a proper home it is
> >> cruel...part of pet owning is responsibility for the creature
you are
> >> giving a home to....I don't care what it is, I don't care how
much
> >> money someone has...if they buy it they need to provide the care
for
> >> it and if they can't afford to house it suitably they shouldn't
be
> >> buying it in the first place...end of story...
>
>
>
>
> > $$ There is no way to know how they will care for it once they
leave
> > the pet store or breeders facilities. That's probably the reason
we
> > don't have such laws here.
>
> If I might be so brash, that sounds like a cop-out. I never had
trouble
> establishing the conditions the fish were going into. I wasn't a
nazi
> grilling them. I'd just conversationally inquire about the
tank-mates,
> foods given, number of fish, size of tank. Almost 100% of them
seemed
> very eager to discuss their hobby with someone who cared and showed

> knowledge. Most people taking the fish into an abusive application
were
> unaware of it, and we informed them regarding growth rates and
eventual
> size (usually keeping Arowanas, Oscars, Koi, Pacus and TinFoil
barbs out
> of 5 to 10g tanks). The odd one would still tell me the truth, but

> simply didn't care or it was a cultural thing. Only once did
someone
> outright lie, and it was quite obvious.
>
> Your attitude sounds like the same cop-out used in the US regarding
gun
> control (or lack of), so maybe it's a cultural 'freedom' thing.
Almost
> seems like the freedom being protected, is to take the easy way
out.
> --
> www.NetMax.tk *stumbles off soapbox he didn't notice was there*
>
>
>
> >> and goodnight
> >> Gill
> > --
> > Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
> > My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
> > http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastadaisy
> > ~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>
> >
> >
> >
>
>

It is a cop-out. It's like saying that criminals will always find
guns so there's nothing that can be done about it. Also - criminals
will do whatever they want no matter what so why bother trying to
re-rehabilitate them. It's like saying a criminal will do what-ever
they want whenever they want and that they should be executed, when
quite frankly not only is it cheaper to keep them incarcerated for
life compared to executing them the criminal will never commit
another crime while permanently incarcerated. It's like saying a
person can not be swayed from committing suicide so why bother trying
to convince them not to. It's like saying boys will be boys so don't
try to prevent fights. It's like saying the universe will either
expand until entropy becomes present or that the universe will
collapse in a big crunch, so don't even try to do anything about it
but just lay down and die. It's like saying the sun will die in 20
million years so don't try to move civilization to another system in
the form of traveling. It's like my mom saying she will die from
breast cancer anyway so why bother having the tumor removed (just
found this out today :-( <very big frown>). I could go on about other
cop-outs that are the same as these but I will just say instead that
these cop-outs are totally anti-proactive and quite frankly just
plain total stupidity. There is always a chance something good can be
accomplished instead. Just because the answer doesn't answer a
question 100% doesn't mean it's wrong. Maybe netmax couldn't ALWAYS
tell correctly that the fish would go to good homes but AT LEAST he
could accomplish it at a 70% level or something close to that and
even a lower success rate would still be better than doing nothing.
Even the most conservative perspective has to agree with this
practically speaking. Good luck netmax, and later!

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Tynk

November 30th 05, 05:58 AM

NetMax wrote:
> "Koi-lo" > wrote in message
> .com...
> >
> > "Gill Passman" > wrote in message
> > .. .
> >> Koi-lo wrote:
> >>>
> >>> "NetMax" > wrote in message
> >>> .. .
> >>>
> >>>> I'm not saying that this is a widely applied corporate policy, but
> >>>> saying
> >>>> stores legally have to sell something is not true, at least to the
> >>>> best of
> >>>> my understanding in Canada.
> >>>
> >>> ======================
> >>> Here in the USA you can be sure a lawsuit would soon commence......
> >>> :-(
> >>
> >> This rule also applies in the UK...I believe it has something to do
> >> with the sale of livestock rather than any other law...my local stores
> >> will totally NOT sell fish unless they can be as sure as possible that
> >> these pets will be properly cared for....no lawsuit in the UK would
> >> win against a retailer refusing to sell anything alive to an
> >> unsuitable home
> >
> > $$ In the USA you'd have to have PROOF the home was unsuitable. People
> > here sue for the least little thing. One woman got rich suing
> > McDonald's because SHE spilt hot coffee on her own crotch! Surely you
> > heard about that one. How do the stores in your country make sure the
> > home is suitable for all the pets they sell?
> >
> >> Today, I have seen in the press that our largest supermarket chain has
> >> refused to sell a certain brand of chocolate to someone as it went
> >> against their quality principles....maybe it's time that there was
> >> some legislation in the US protecting livestock (and chocolate - being
> >> flippant) being sold into unsuitable hands....
> >
> > $$ I wish there was - there isn't. People who are seldom home buy cats
> > to live in virtual isolation. They buy huge dogs to languish in tiny
> > efficiency apartments. They buy expensive birds and hang their cages
> > by open windows or above air conditioning vents. They buy a bag of koi
> > for 100 gallon unfiltered preformed ponds.....
> >
> >> Honestly, I think if you cannot provide a proper home for a pet you
> >> should not be buying it....I don't discriminate against a mammal, bird
> >> or fish in this....if you can't provide a proper home it is
> >> cruel...part of pet owning is responsibility for the creature you are
> >> giving a home to....I don't care what it is, I don't care how much
> >> money someone has...if they buy it they need to provide the care for
> >> it and if they can't afford to house it suitably they shouldn't be
> >> buying it in the first place...end of story...
>
>
>
>
> > $$ There is no way to know how they will care for it once they leave
> > the pet store or breeders facilities. That's probably the reason we
> > don't have such laws here.
>
> If I might be so brash, that sounds like a cop-out. I never had trouble
> establishing the conditions the fish were going into. I wasn't a nazi
> grilling them. I'd just conversationally inquire about the tank-mates,
> foods given, number of fish, size of tank. Almost 100% of them seemed
> very eager to discuss their hobby with someone who cared and showed
> knowledge. Most people taking the fish into an abusive application were
> unaware of it, and we informed them regarding growth rates and eventual
> size (usually keeping Arowanas, Oscars, Koi, Pacus and TinFoil barbs out
> of 5 to 10g tanks). The odd one would still tell me the truth, but
> simply didn't care or it was a cultural thing. Only once did someone
> outright lie, and it was quite obvious.
>
> Your attitude sounds like the same cop-out used in the US regarding gun
> control (or lack of), so maybe it's a cultural 'freedom' thing. Almost
> seems like the freedom being protected, is to take the easy way out.
> --
> www.NetMax.tk *stumbles off soapbox he didn't notice was there*
>
>
>
> >> and goodnight
> >> Gill
> > --
ponding since 1995...
> > My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
> > http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastadaisy
> > ~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>
> >
> >
> >
NetMax wrote::
> > Koi-Lo....
> Your attitude sounds like the same cop-out used in the US regarding gun
> control (or lack of), so maybe it's a cultural 'freedom' thing. Almost
> seems like the freedom being protected, is to take the easy way out.
> --
> www.NetMax.tk *stumbles off soapbox he didn't notice was there*

You get your butt right back up there my dear. = )~
It's quite easy to say there's nothing you can do about what the
customer will house the critter they want to purchase in, but it
doesn't take much time or effort to ask. It also doesn't take much
effort to figure out if they know what they're doing, or plan on
keeping the animal (be it fish, bird, reptile or mammal) in proper
conditions.
One local shop near me used to sell anything, to anyone no questions
asked, unless it involved the marine fish. Only then did strict
standerds come into play.
They also kept all males Bettas in Ivy bowls (or a bowl the same size
without the fluted top).
Then they got in a couple of new employees who put a stop to all of
that.
This is also when I became a frequent customer, as I didn't like the
condition of the freshwater tanks or the lack of caring from the owner
towards the freshwater fish purchases.
After these ladies started working there, customers were actually being
asked about the tank at home...tank mates, tank maintenance, and the
male Bettas were NO longer in such tiny bowls. They also stopped
ordering more then what they could keep in heated tanks with non
nipping fish, Cichlids, or Goldfish.
I aslo got them to start getting in female Bettas too. (their shipper
is about the only one around here that gets in long finned females,
and was the first to get in DT females).
I was in fishy heaven!
I've watched either of the ladies actually turn down sales before. More
than once too.
It's perfectly legal, as the store had every right to not sell one of
it's animals and there are no lawsuits. There'd be lawsuits if it were
against the law to deny a customer the right to purchase an animal, but
there isn't in Illinois (USA). As far as any other states, I'm not
sure.
There was a man who had a sissy fit because this young lady (teenager)
wouldn't sell him a common Pleco for his kid's 5g tank. She explained
why...didn't matter. He wanted that Pleco to "eat the Goldfish poo".
Wasn't bad enough that he had a Goldfish in a 5g tank, but he also
wanted a fish that could grow to over a foot and half long!
I was so proud of her, and I let her and her boss know it.

[email protected]

November 30th 05, 09:26 AM

Heh, I should've known better than to use the abbreviation "gf" in a
fish newsgroup. Yes, gf=girlfriend.

> > I believe he means his GIRLFRIEND'S not his goldfishes when he used
> > gf's.

> *whew* my bad, thanks!

Gill Passman

November 30th 05, 09:32 AM

Daniel Morrow wrote:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
> Bottom posted.
>
> - --
> You can find my public key at https://keyserver1.pgp.com
> "NetMax" > wrote in message
> .. .
>
>>"Koi-lo" > wrote in message
.com...
>>
>>>"Gill Passman" > wrote in
>
> message
>
.. .
>>>
>>>>Koi-lo wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>"NetMax" > wrote in message
.. .
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>I'm not saying that this is a widely applied corporate policy,
>
> but
>
>>>>>>saying
>>>>>>stores legally have to sell something is not true, at least to
>
> the
>
>>>>>>best of
>>>>>>my understanding in Canada.
>>>>>
>>>>>======================
>>>>>Here in the USA you can be sure a lawsuit would soon
>
> commence......
>
>>>>>:-(
>>>>
>>>>This rule also applies in the UK...I believe it has something to
>
> do
>
>>>>with the sale of livestock rather than any other law...my local
>
> stores
>
>>>>will totally NOT sell fish unless they can be as sure as
>
> possible that
>
>>>>these pets will be properly cared for....no lawsuit in the UK
>
> would
>
>>>>win against a retailer refusing to sell anything alive to an
>>>>unsuitable home
>>>
>>>$$ In the USA you'd have to have PROOF the home was unsuitable.
>
> People
>
>>>here sue for the least little thing. One woman got rich suing
>>>McDonald's because SHE spilt hot coffee on her own crotch!
>
> Surely you
>
>>>heard about that one. How do the stores in your country make sure
>
> the
>
>>>home is suitable for all the pets they sell?
>>>
>>>
>>>>Today, I have seen in the press that our largest supermarket
>
> chain has
>
>>>>refused to sell a certain brand of chocolate to someone as it
>
> went
>
>>>>against their quality principles....maybe it's time that there
>
> was
>
>>>>some legislation in the US protecting livestock (and chocolate -
>
> being
>
>>>>flippant) being sold into unsuitable hands....
>>>
>>>$$ I wish there was - there isn't. People who are seldom home
>
> buy cats
>
>>>to live in virtual isolation. They buy huge dogs to languish in
>
> tiny
>
>>>efficiency apartments. They buy expensive birds and hang their
>
> cages
>
>>>by open windows or above air conditioning vents. They buy a bag
>
> of koi
>
>>>for 100 gallon unfiltered preformed ponds.....
>>>
>>>
>>>>Honestly, I think if you cannot provide a proper home for a pet
>
> you
>
>>>>should not be buying it....I don't discriminate against a
>
> mammal, bird
>
>>>>or fish in this....if you can't provide a proper home it is
>>>>cruel...part of pet owning is responsibility for the creature
>
> you are
>
>>>>giving a home to....I don't care what it is, I don't care how
>
> much
>
>>>>money someone has...if they buy it they need to provide the care
>
> for
>
>>>>it and if they can't afford to house it suitably they shouldn't
>
> be
>
>>>>buying it in the first place...end of story...
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>>$$ There is no way to know how they will care for it once they
>
> leave
>
>>>the pet store or breeders facilities. That's probably the reason
>
> we
>
>>>don't have such laws here.
>>
>>If I might be so brash, that sounds like a cop-out. I never had
>
> trouble
>
>>establishing the conditions the fish were going into. I wasn't a
>
> nazi
>
>>grilling them. I'd just conversationally inquire about the
>
> tank-mates,
>
>>foods given, number of fish, size of tank. Almost 100% of them
>
> seemed
>
>>very eager to discuss their hobby with someone who cared and showed
>
>
>>knowledge. Most people taking the fish into an abusive application
>
> were
>
>>unaware of it, and we informed them regarding growth rates and
>
> eventual
>
>>size (usually keeping Arowanas, Oscars, Koi, Pacus and TinFoil
>
> barbs out
>
>>of 5 to 10g tanks). The odd one would still tell me the truth, but
>
>
>>simply didn't care or it was a cultural thing. Only once did
>
> someone
>
>>outright lie, and it was quite obvious.
>>
>>Your attitude sounds like the same cop-out used in the US regarding
>
> gun
>
>>control (or lack of), so maybe it's a cultural 'freedom' thing.
>
> Almost
>
>>seems like the freedom being protected, is to take the easy way
>
> out.
>
>>--
>>www.NetMax.tk *stumbles off soapbox he didn't notice was there*
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>>>and goodnight
>>>>Gill
>>>
>>>--
>>>Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
>>>My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
>>>http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastadaisy
>>>~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>
> It is a cop-out. It's like saying that criminals will always find
> guns so there's nothing that can be done about it. Also - criminals
> will do whatever they want no matter what so why bother trying to
> re-rehabilitate them. It's like saying a criminal will do what-ever
> they want whenever they want and that they should be executed, when
> quite frankly not only is it cheaper to keep them incarcerated for
> life compared to executing them the criminal will never commit
> another crime while permanently incarcerated. It's like saying a
> person can not be swayed from committing suicide so why bother trying
> to convince them not to. It's like saying boys will be boys so don't
> try to prevent fights. It's like saying the universe will either
> expand until entropy becomes present or that the universe will
> collapse in a big crunch, so don't even try to do anything about it
> but just lay down and die. It's like saying the sun will die in 20
> million years so don't try to move civilization to another system in
> the form of traveling. It's like my mom saying she will die from
> breast cancer anyway so why bother having the tumor removed (just
> found this out today :-( <very big frown>). I could go on about other
> cop-outs that are the same as these but I will just say instead that
> these cop-outs are totally anti-proactive and quite frankly just
> plain total stupidity. There is always a chance something good can be
> accomplished instead. Just because the answer doesn't answer a
> question 100% doesn't mean it's wrong. Maybe netmax couldn't ALWAYS
> tell correctly that the fish would go to good homes but AT LEAST he
> could accomplish it at a 70% level or something close to that and
> even a lower success rate would still be better than doing nothing.
> Even the most conservative perspective has to agree with this
> practically speaking. Good luck netmax, and later!
>
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>
>

OMG Daniel :-(

<snip>

It's like my mom saying she will die from
> breast cancer anyway so why bother having the tumor removed (just
> found this out today :-( <very big frown>).

You have to tell her that there is every reason to have the tumour
removed....not only is Breast Cancer one of the most common cancers it
is also one of the most treatable - especially if caught early enough.
Granted the treatment is quite aggressive but it is generally
successful. I can understand how your Mother feels...when diagnosed with
a disease such as this you start on an emotional roller-coaster...the
fact that it is in the Breast makes it even more emotive and hard to
deal with....another problem is that you don't actually feel ill with it
(until the latter stages I guess but that is outside my experience) -
because you don't feel ill or in any pain it is easy to deny it and
pretend that the problem just doesn't exist. There is also a great fear
of the unkown along with a fear of the disease itself and it's
consequences. You might feel one way about it one day/minute/second and
then the opposite another day/minute/second....the only thing to do is
accept the ride and the treatment and know that it will go away, or if
not that at least you have done everything to get rid of it - I think in
the UK the survival rate is around 70% and improving all the time.

In the UK when diagnosed you get assigned a "Breast Care Nurse" - I
don't know if it is the same in the US. This person is there not only to
discuss every aspect of the treatment, but to support you and your
family through it (and be there to give hugs when necessary). There are
also lots of support groups out there....A good source of information
can be found:-

http://www.breakthrough.org.uk/index.html

All though this is aimed at women in the UK a quick google will pick up
a wealth of info that may be more relevant to you in the States.

Please tell your Mum that however daunting the surgery and treatment
seems right now it is just so, so worth having it...in my mind there
never was any other option (even though the temptation to just say no -
was also sometimes there).

Feel free to mail me direct if you wish

Gill

Gill Passman

November 30th 05, 09:33 AM

wrote:
> Heh, I should've known better than to use the abbreviation "gf" in a
> fish newsgroup. Yes, gf=girlfriend.
>
>
>>>I believe he means his GIRLFRIEND'S not his goldfishes when he used
>>>gf's.
>
>
>>*whew* my bad, thanks!
>
>
Isn't it a bit cruel to keep a girlfriend in a 1 gall tank? LOL

Gill

[email protected]

November 30th 05, 09:36 AM

> Only pellets? = (
> You've never fed them Bloodworms or Brine Shrimp?
> Remember, the best diet for fish is a varied diet.

Yes. If they're looking lethargic, I'll bring out the frozen
bloodworms. Live brine shrimp are too much trouble, but I'll buy
frozen from time to time. But generally I don't feed frozen food to my
bettas in the smaller tanks because it pollutes the water too quickly,
and I don't in my larger community tanks because the pigs of the fish
world (my angels) snatch it up before anybody else can.

My girlfriend's bettas grew increasingly picky in food when she started
feeding them frozen bloodworms, such that they stopped eating the dry
stuff. That's why I only feed them the frozen food when I see their
appetites diminish.

Remember that my bettas live > 2 years generally, and I find that
convincing proof that their primary pellet diet is good enough. Sure,
we can always find fresher, more expensive food, but that's no
guarantee that a fish will live much longer either.

<tim><

[email protected]

November 30th 05, 09:40 AM

> If Pizza is your favourite food but you wouldn't want to eat it every
> day...fish are the same, give them a varied diet the same way as you
> would yourself

Humans have become accustomed to variety, not out of need, but out of
want. I live in a city where there are ethnic restaurants all over. I
can eat at probably 100 different restaurants of at least 10 different
ethnicities within a 10 km radius. I've also visited other cities and
towns, where the primary food was burger and fries. I'm used to
variety, but evidently, there are people in towns and small cities
where they are used to their (in my opinion limited) variety. Have you
ever seen a fish sick of flake food? Usually when it is, it's because
it's gotten ill. But it's not because it's depressed over a lack of
choice.

<tim><

[email protected]

November 30th 05, 09:44 AM

> Isn't it a bit cruel to keep a girlfriend in a 1 gall tank? LOL

> Gill

It's fine...I've never heard her complain :) We've worked out a series
of tapping noises she makes on the glass when she's hungry and I have
to feed her.

Just kidding folks! She's in a tank no smaller than 10 gallons, of
course.

<tim><

Gill Passman

November 30th 05, 11:46 AM

NetMax wrote:
> "Koi-lo" > wrote in message
> .com...
>
>>"Gill Passman" > wrote in message
.. .
>>
>>>Koi-lo wrote:
>>>
>>>>"NetMax" > wrote in message
.. .
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>I'm not saying that this is a widely applied corporate policy, but
>>>>>saying
>>>>>stores legally have to sell something is not true, at least to the
>>>>>best of
>>>>>my understanding in Canada.
>>>>
>>>>======================
>>>>Here in the USA you can be sure a lawsuit would soon commence......
>>>>:-(
>>>
>>>This rule also applies in the UK...I believe it has something to do
>>>with the sale of livestock rather than any other law...my local stores
>>>will totally NOT sell fish unless they can be as sure as possible that
>>>these pets will be properly cared for....no lawsuit in the UK would
>>>win against a retailer refusing to sell anything alive to an
>>>unsuitable home
>>
>>$$ In the USA you'd have to have PROOF the home was unsuitable. People
>>here sue for the least little thing. One woman got rich suing
>>McDonald's because SHE spilt hot coffee on her own crotch! Surely you
>>heard about that one. How do the stores in your country make sure the
>>home is suitable for all the pets they sell?
>>
>>
>>>Today, I have seen in the press that our largest supermarket chain has
>>>refused to sell a certain brand of chocolate to someone as it went
>>>against their quality principles....maybe it's time that there was
>>>some legislation in the US protecting livestock (and chocolate - being
>>>flippant) being sold into unsuitable hands....
>>
>>$$ I wish there was - there isn't. People who are seldom home buy cats
>>to live in virtual isolation. They buy huge dogs to languish in tiny
>>efficiency apartments. They buy expensive birds and hang their cages
>>by open windows or above air conditioning vents. They buy a bag of koi
>>for 100 gallon unfiltered preformed ponds.....
>>
>>
>>>Honestly, I think if you cannot provide a proper home for a pet you
>>>should not be buying it....I don't discriminate against a mammal, bird
>>>or fish in this....if you can't provide a proper home it is
>>>cruel...part of pet owning is responsibility for the creature you are
>>>giving a home to....I don't care what it is, I don't care how much
>>>money someone has...if they buy it they need to provide the care for
>>>it and if they can't afford to house it suitably they shouldn't be
>>>buying it in the first place...end of story...
>
>
>
>
>
>>$$ There is no way to know how they will care for it once they leave
>>the pet store or breeders facilities. That's probably the reason we
>>don't have such laws here.
>
>
> If I might be so brash, that sounds like a cop-out. I never had trouble
> establishing the conditions the fish were going into. I wasn't a nazi
> grilling them. I'd just conversationally inquire about the tank-mates,
> foods given, number of fish, size of tank. Almost 100% of them seemed
> very eager to discuss their hobby with someone who cared and showed
> knowledge. Most people taking the fish into an abusive application were
> unaware of it, and we informed them regarding growth rates and eventual
> size (usually keeping Arowanas, Oscars, Koi, Pacus and TinFoil barbs out
> of 5 to 10g tanks). The odd one would still tell me the truth, but
> simply didn't care or it was a cultural thing. Only once did someone
> outright lie, and it was quite obvious.
>
> Your attitude sounds like the same cop-out used in the US regarding gun
> control (or lack of), so maybe it's a cultural 'freedom' thing. Almost
> seems like the freedom being protected, is to take the easy way out.

The places I go refuse to sell a tank and fish on the same day...when
you actually go to get your first you get questioned to determine your
level of knowledge and then advise is given as appropriate - same
everywhere I've been. When I bought my two current bettas (at a place
where I wasn't known) I got questioned quite closely on the planned
accommodation - I guess he was worried I might put two males in the same
tank....I have known people to be refused fish and they still go back to
the same place - they go away and take the advice they have been given
to ensure that the best provision is made for their pets. One place I go
refuses to sell Clown Loaches to anyone with less than a 30 gall tank -
please let's not go get into a Clown Loach tank size discussion :-) .
Sure anyone can lie but in reality very few people do.

Cat and Dog Rescue Homes in the UK not only interrogate you as to how
you are going to care for your pet, some will actually insist on a home
visit to make sure that you have adequate care provisions and refuse to
allow you a dog or a cat if you don't.

With almost every animal that I buy/acquire I have been asked about how
I'm going to care for it....as I think I've already said, Livestock/pets
are heavily regulated here and there are a lot of prosecutions for
people not providing adequate care for their pets....

Gill

IDzine01

November 30th 05, 03:25 PM

>$$ I wish there was - there isn't. People who are seldom home buy cats to
>live in virtual isolation. They buy huge dogs to languish in tiny
>efficiency apartments. They buy expensive birds and hang their cages by
>open windows or above air conditioning vents. They buy a bag of koi for 100
>gallon unfiltered preformed ponds.....

I'm not certain if it's illegal or not but the cat shelter I adopted
from (in the U.S.) only adopts to those they see fit. They regularly
refuse people who don't meet certain requirements. (I.e. renters must
supply landlord's contact information to verify that cats are accepted,
etc) I was there when an angry customer came in yelling about how her
S.O. was refused a kitten days before because she only wanted to adopt
one. The policy is kittens are only to be adopted in pairs if in a home
that has no other cats. (It's believed they feel more secure in pairs)
The person was sent away and the kittens, which are easily adoptable,
were sold to someone else who would take both. They also rigorously
check references, ask about your previous cat-caring experience and
provide a contract for you upon adoption stating that you will not
declaw or allow your cat to live outdoors. Obviously they're a lot more
stringent then some other cat shelters but still I didn't get the
impression they were breaking the law by refusing to sell a particular
animal. I'll have to check in on that. I'm curious now.

Tynk

November 30th 05, 04:02 PM

wrote:
> > Only pellets? = (
> > You've never fed them Bloodworms or Brine Shrimp?
> > Remember, the best diet for fish is a varied diet.
>
> Yes. If they're looking lethargic, I'll bring out the frozen
> bloodworms. Live brine shrimp are too much trouble, but I'll buy
> frozen from time to time. But generally I don't feed frozen food to my
> bettas in the smaller tanks because it pollutes the water too quickly,
> and I don't in my larger community tanks because the pigs of the fish
> world (my angels) snatch it up before anybody else can.
>
> My girlfriend's bettas grew increasingly picky in food when she started
> feeding them frozen bloodworms, such that they stopped eating the dry
> stuff. That's why I only feed them the frozen food when I see their
> appetites diminish.
>
> Remember that my bettas live > 2 years generally, and I find that
> convincing proof that their primary pellet diet is good enough. Sure,
> we can always find fresher, more expensive food, but that's no
> guarantee that a fish will live much longer either.
>
> <tim><

> Yes. If they're looking lethargic, I'll bring out the frozen
> bloodworms. Live brine shrimp are too much trouble, but I'll buy
> frozen from time to time. But generally I don't feed frozen food to my
> bettas in the smaller tanks because it pollutes the water too quickly,
> and I don't in my larger community tanks because the pigs of the fish
> world (my angels) snatch it up before anybody else can.
>
> My girlfriend's bettas grew increasingly picky in food when she started
> feeding them frozen bloodworms, such that they stopped eating the dry
> stuff. That's why I only feed them the frozen food when I see their
> appetites diminish.
>
Your girfriends Betta stopped accepting dry foods after she started
feeding bloodworms because it finally got what it instinctivley knew it
was supposed to be eating.
It's having a hissy fit. This is what they basically eat in the wild,
as well as other bugs and fish fry, etc.
Also, if the frozen food you are feeding fouls up the water in your
Betta tanks too much, it may be the actual brand you are using. Hikari
frozen foods are far better than the other brands out there. The
quality of the food, and hardly any debris (unlike SFBay brand and
others) that is left in the water is amazing compared to the others.
When fish are used to getting a varied diet, like they should have,
they accept it and eat what ever they get.
When used to be fed only dry foods and only once in a blue moon they
get fed the good stuff, of course they're going to act like pigs.
I specialize in Bettas and Angelfish. Have for most my life.
Your Angels are not being pigs, they're being Angelfish.
It's quite simple to make sure the other tank mates get food too. It's
all in how you are feeding it, not that certain fish are pigs.

Koi-lo

November 30th 05, 05:09 PM

"NetMax" > wrote in message
.. .
> "Koi-lo" > wrote in message
> .com...
>
>> $$ There is no way to know how they will care for it once they leave the
>> pet store or breeders facilities. That's probably the reason we don't
>> have such laws here.
> ============
> If I might be so brash, that sounds like a cop-out.

# What shop keeper would have the resources to check out the homes of the
customers? If someone come in and said they have a 120 g tank how could it
be proven without going out to their home? They may have a 5g and nothing
more. A busy pet shop here may have hundreds of people going through the
doors each day. Our local PetsMart is a zoo some days. How would they
check everyone out? They sell hundreds of fish each day. I would think
they'd go bankrupt paying for such a thing, don't you? Most of the stores
selling fish here are chains, not privately owned.

I never had trouble
> establishing the conditions the fish were going into. I wasn't a nazi
> grilling them. I'd just conversationally inquire about the tank-mates,
> foods given, number of fish, size of tank.

# You must be talking about a privately owned store. Where I live most are
large chains that hire clueless teens or retired people. They're busy as
heck and don't have the time to chat with the customers even if they wanted
to. No store in the USA is going to pay the cost of special training for
their minimum wage employees who come and go faster than the stock. Some
offer a bit of advice as they bag your fish. Most are as I said are 100%
clueless. :-(

Almost 100% of them seemed
> very eager to discuss their hobby with someone who cared and showed
> knowledge.

# I agree if the employee had the knowledge and the time that many
fish-buyers would show eager interest. But many don't! You must be aware
of who the stores in the USA hire?!?!?! Usually anyone who applies for the
position is hired. These are seldom people with knowledge about the proper
care of fish.

Most people taking the fish into an abusive application were
> unaware of it, and we informed them regarding growth rates and eventual
> size (usually keeping Arowanas, Oscars, Koi, Pacus and TinFoil barbs out
> of 5 to 10g tanks). The odd one would still tell me the truth, but simply
> didn't care or it was a cultural thing. Only once did someone outright
> lie, and it was quite obvious.
>
> Your attitude sounds like the same cop-out

# Cop-out? I don't own these huge chains we have here nor do I have stock
in any of them. :-) I have nothing to say as to how they're run, or by
who, or how they hire they're employees. Are you suggesting we force these
chains to hire and train people how to tell who is and isn't qualified to
buy fish? To teach them about the hundreds of fish being sold in the USA?
There are two problems with that. One is who PAYS for this training,
especially when we all know these employees will soon be gone? The other is
how many people are going to want such training when so few are interested
in fish? Most are college kids who take these jobs here in the USA, not
someone looking to make a long-term commitment to such a low-paying
position.

used in the US regarding gun
> control (or lack of), so maybe it's a cultural 'freedom' thing.

# I'm sure it is. We have no right as Americans to dictate to a store
keeper who he hires or what they're taught......

Almost
> seems like the freedom being protected, is to take the easy way out.
> --
> www.NetMax.tk *stumbles off soapbox he didn't notice was there*

# I'd still rather be HERE than any other country on earth. :-)))
--

Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastadaisy
~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>

Koi-lo

November 30th 05, 05:16 PM

"Tynk" > wrote in message
ups.com...
>>
>> www.NetMax.tk *stumbles off soapbox he didn't notice was there*
>
> You get your butt right back up there my dear. = )~
> It's quite easy to say there's nothing you can do about what the
> customer will house the critter they want to purchase in, but it
> doesn't take much time or effort to ask.
============ Brevity snip!

This may not be allowed in the chain pet shops where fish are sold by the
hundreds each day. They simply can't afford to hire and train enough
employees (where the turnover is so rapid) to spend the extra time with the
customers. We can't assume all the stores are individually owned. I'm not
condoning what they do, I'm just explaining why it is the way it is in the
chain stores.
Maybe someone should fight for laws forcing the chains to train their
employees before putting them out on the sales floor.
--

Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastadaisy
~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>

Koi-lo

November 30th 05, 05:23 PM

"Gill Passman" > wrote in message
news:438d9168$0$20534>>>>>>I'm not saying that >
> The places I go refuse to sell a tank and fish on the same day..

# At large chain pet stores? Here in TN they seldom ask you anything. The
privately owned stores will often have the time to talk to each customer.

..when
> you actually go to get your first you get questioned to determine your
> level of knowledge and then advise is given as appropriate - same
> everywhere I've been. When I bought my two current bettas (at a place
> where I wasn't known) I got questioned quite closely on the planned
> accommodation - I guess he was worried I might put two males in the same
> tank....

# With bettas they will sometimes tell you this here as well. Most
employees simply bag them up and hand them to you.

I have known people to be refused fish and they still go back to
> the same place - they go away and take the advice they have been given to
> ensure that the best provision is made for their pets. One place I go
> refuses to sell Clown Loaches to anyone with less than a 30 gall tank -
> please let's not go get into a Clown Loach tank size discussion :-) . Sure
> anyone can lie but in reality very few people do.

> Cat and Dog Rescue Homes in the UK not only interrogate you as to how you
> are going to care for your pet, some will actually insist on a home visit
> to make sure that you have adequate care provisions and refuse to allow
> you a dog or a cat if you don't.

# This should be the LAW in every country. The abuse and neglect of dogs
here in the USA is sickening.

> With almost every animal that I buy/acquire I have been asked about how
> I'm going to care for it....as I think I've already said, Livestock/pets
> are heavily regulated here and there are a lot of prosecutions for people
> not providing adequate care for their pets....

# There is little regulation where I live but people are starting to be
prosecuted for abusing pets and livestock. The UK has always been more
progressive where animals are concerned than the US.
--

Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastadaisy
~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>

Koi-lo

November 30th 05, 05:26 PM

"IDzine01" > wrote in message
ups.com...
>
>>$$ I wish there was - there isn't. People who are seldom home buy cats to
>>live in virtual isolation. They buy huge dogs to languish in tiny
>>efficiency apartments. They buy expensive birds and hang their cages by
>>open windows or above air conditioning vents. They buy a bag of koi for
>>100
>>gallon unfiltered preformed ponds.....
>
> I'm not certain if it's illegal or not but the cat shelter I adopted
> from (in the U.S.) only adopts to those they see fit. They regularly
> refuse people who don't meet certain requirements. (I.e. renters must
> supply landlord's contact information to verify that cats are accepted,
> etc) I was there when an angry customer came in yelling about how her
> S.O. was refused a kitten days before because she only wanted to adopt
> one. The policy is kittens are only to be adopted in pairs if in a home
> that has no other cats. (It's believed they feel more secure in pairs)
> The person was sent away and the kittens, which are easily adoptable,
> were sold to someone else who would take both. They also rigorously
> check references, ask about your previous cat-caring experience and
> provide a contract for you upon adoption stating that you will not
> declaw or allow your cat to live outdoors. Obviously they're a lot more
> stringent then some other cat shelters but still I didn't get the
> impression they were breaking the law by refusing to sell a particular
> animal. I'll have to check in on that. I'm curious now.
===================================
If they're a PRIVATE concern they may be within their legal rights to give
or not give the animals to anyone who comes in the door. The regular
animals shelters here in TN don't even ask if you have the money to buy a
bag of cat food. :-(
--
Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastadaisy
~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>

Gill Passman

November 30th 05, 05:35 PM

Koi-lo wrote:
>
> "Gill Passman" > wrote in message
> news:438d9168$0$20534>>>>>>I'm not saying that >
>
>> The places I go refuse to sell a tank and fish on the same day..
>
>
> # At large chain pet stores? Here in TN they seldom ask you anything.
> The privately owned stores will often have the time to talk to each
> customer.

Yep, even Pets at Home (which I think is the same company as PetSmart)
in the UK will refuse to sell a tank and fish on the same day...most of
the shops around here where I live are part of a chain/franchise which
is a member of an association called OATA - they are regularily checked
not only by their own Head Office but also OATA I believe....if they
sell without the appropriate advice they would pretty much soon be an
ex-franchise (was in one store while they were being inspected -
sometimes it is spot checks). The footfall through these places is quite
large and I've had to wait almost an hour to get served some days...even
when busy they will take the time to give customers advice. I now go
during the week when they are quiet...Most of their staff are trained
and qualified in various aspects of fish husbandry, disease etc. - even
the lads/girls just doing it as a weekend job. A lot of them are also
fish keepers...

>
> .when
>
>> you actually go to get your first you get questioned to determine your
>> level of knowledge and then advise is given as appropriate - same
>> everywhere I've been. When I bought my two current bettas (at a place
>> where I wasn't known) I got questioned quite closely on the planned
>> accommodation - I guess he was worried I might put two males in the
>> same tank....
>
>
> # With bettas they will sometimes tell you this here as well. Most
> employees simply bag them up and hand them to you.
>
> I have known people to be refused fish and they still go back to
>
>> the same place - they go away and take the advice they have been given
>> to ensure that the best provision is made for their pets. One place I
>> go refuses to sell Clown Loaches to anyone with less than a 30 gall
>> tank - please let's not go get into a Clown Loach tank size discussion
>> :-) . Sure anyone can lie but in reality very few people do.
>
>
>> Cat and Dog Rescue Homes in the UK not only interrogate you as to how
>> you are going to care for your pet, some will actually insist on a
>> home visit to make sure that you have adequate care provisions and
>> refuse to allow you a dog or a cat if you don't.
>
>
> # This should be the LAW in every country. The abuse and neglect of
> dogs here in the USA is sickening.
>
>> With almost every animal that I buy/acquire I have been asked about
>> how I'm going to care for it....as I think I've already said,
>> Livestock/pets are heavily regulated here and there are a lot of
>> prosecutions for people not providing adequate care for their pets....
>
>
> # There is little regulation where I live but people are starting to be
> prosecuted for abusing pets and livestock. The UK has always been more
> progressive where animals are concerned than the US.

The British in general are very active when it comes to animal welfare.
It is because of this that we now have the regulations in place to
ensure as far as is humanely possible that animals are treated well. Of
course there are times when this does not happen....hence the
prosecutions. I would say all of the animal welfare groups are charities
employing volunteers but they are backed by legislation and the courts -
all pet and fish shops have to be licenced by the local authority who
take complaints seriously and have the power to act.

Maybe it's time you all started shouting about it as well :-)

Gill

Koi-lo

November 30th 05, 05:40 PM

"Tynk" > wrote in message
oups.com...
>
> Koi-lo wrote:
>> "Beano" > wrote in message
>> oups.com...
>> > Did someone say something about bettas costing $3 ??? In Australia, it
>> > costs $15 for a male veil tail. Very expensive for a fish that only
>> > lives for 2 years and are reasonably old when purchased. The females
>> > cost about $10 here.
>> =============================
>> Regular bettas in my area cost $2.99 to $4.99 each (TN USA). The fancy
>> ones
>> cost about $2 more. Most are not old from what I see in the local
>> stores.
>> Females aren't always easy to find. They will run $1 or so less than
>> the
>> males.
>> --
>> Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
>> My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
>> http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastadaisy
>> ~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>
> Most are not old from what I see in the local stores.
>> Females aren't always easy to find.

> This is quite a generalization.

$ That's why I said "in the local stores." I can't speak for what's being
sold in Chicago, England or Canada. :-)

> It really depends on the individual stores in the towns people live in.
> When it comes to the chain stores...98% of their stock is fully grown
> males. Petsmart do not carry females at all. They used to many years
> ago, but stopped.
> When it comes to locally owned shops,it depends on where they get their
> stock, as to the ages of the fish and whether or not they carry
> females.
> If the shops out by you normally *only* sell young males, figure
> yourself quitelucky as your town is a minority. Ditto with having
> females in stock.

$ I've gotten quite young fish in the "local stores" which add to how long
they will be with me.

> There are constantly folks posting here and a few other groups I visit,
> and many emails coming directly to me asking where they can find
> females without having to mail order them. I personally am the reason
> why one particular PetCo always orders them, and am the reason why 2
> other local mom and pop type shops even started carrying the females.

$ The larger Wal*Mart stores where I live carry young females for $3.49
each. I seldom see them in the privately owned shops.

> Since those 2 local shops, and the one PetCo started stocking them on a
> regular basis, they can't keep them in stock! Basically...you have to
> be there when the truck comes in...I'm not kidding either. There's one
> manager at this PetCo that will call me up, or even save certain color
> lines or fin variations that I prefer. My hubby gets a kick out of
> that.
> He saw PetCo on the caller ID when the phone rang one day (it was that
> manager) and he thought it was so funny that a pet store was calling me
> to let me know they had certain fish in that day. Of course I though
> it was perfectly normal. lol = )~

# The Petco here (as well as PetsMart) has a contract with some wholesaler I
was told, and so cannot purchase fish from private breeders.
--

Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastadaisy
~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>

James Evans

November 30th 05, 06:41 PM

"Tynk" > wrote in message
oups.com...
>

[snip snip]

> Hi James....
> You must not have known that you shouldn't mix Bettas and Gouramis.
> They're too closely related, and 99% of the time the Betta is going to
> get shredded.
> For the most part, with suitable tank mates, and depending on the
> individual personality of each Betta, it's usually fine to house them
> with other fish, as long as they are not known nippers. The exception
> is any fish in the anabantid family (air breathers).

Yes, at the time (about 10 years ago) I didn't know those two were such
a bad combo. I only had one Gourami, but one was enough.

James

James Evans

November 30th 05, 06:45 PM

I definitely saw some female bettas at my local Petsmart when we bought
"Pinky" a couple weeks ago. I don't recall seeing them there before. Maybe
they've decided to carry them again?

James

"Tynk" > wrote in message
oups.com...
>
> Koi-lo wrote:
>> "Beano" > wrote in message
>> oups.com...
>> > Did someone say something about bettas costing $3 ??? In Australia, it
>> > costs $15 for a male veil tail. Very expensive for a fish that only
>> > lives for 2 years and are reasonably old when purchased. The females
>> > cost about $10 here.
>> =============================
>> Regular bettas in my area cost $2.99 to $4.99 each (TN USA). The fancy
>> ones
>> cost about $2 more. Most are not old from what I see in the local
>> stores.
>> Females aren't always easy to find. They will run $1 or so less than
>> the
>> males.
>> --
>> Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
>> My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
>> http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastadaisy
>> ~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>
> Most are not old from what I see in the local stores.
>> Females aren't always easy to find.
> This is quite a generalization.
> It really depends on the individual stores in the towns people live in.
> When it comes to the chain stores...98% of their stock is fully grown
> males. Petsmart do not carry females at all. They used to many years
> ago, but stopped.
> When it comes to locally owned shops,it depends on where they get their
> stock, as to the ages of the fish and whether or not they carry
> females.
> If the shops out by you normally *only* sell young males, figure
> yourself quitelucky as your town is a minority. Ditto with having
> females in stock.
> There are constantly folks posting here and a few other groups I visit,
> and many emails coming directly to me asking where they can find
> females without having to mail order them. I personally am the reason
> why one particular PetCo always orders them, and am the reason why 2
> other local mom and pop type shops even started carrying the females.
> Since those 2 local shops, and the one PetCo started stocking them on a
> regular basis, they can't keep them in stock! Basically...you have to
> be there when the truck comes in...I'm not kidding either. There's one
> manager at this PetCo that will call me up, or even save certain color
> lines or fin variations that I prefer. My hubby gets a kick out of
> that.
> He saw PetCo on the caller ID when the phone rang one day (it was that
> manager) and he thought it was so funny that a pet store was calling me
> to let me know they had certain fish in that day. Of course I though
> it was perfectly normal. lol = )~
>

Koi-lo

November 30th 05, 06:53 PM

"Gill Passman" > wrote in message
.. .
> Koi-lo wrote:
>>
>> "Gill Passman" > wrote in message
>> news:438d9168$0$20534>>>>>>I'm not saying that >
>>
>>> The places I go refuse to sell a tank and fish on the same day..
>>
>>
>> # At large chain pet stores? Here in TN they seldom ask you anything.
>> The privately owned stores will often have the time to talk to each
>> customer.
========
> Yep, even Pets at Home (which I think is the same company as PetSmart) in
> the UK will refuse to sell a tank and fish on the same day...most of the
> shops around here where I live are part of a chain/franchise which is a
> member of an association called OATA - they are regularily checked not
> only by their own Head Office but also OATA I believe....if they sell
> without the appropriate advice they would pretty much soon be an
> ex-franchise (was in one store while they were being inspected - sometimes
> it is spot checks). The footfall through these places is quite large and
> I've had to wait almost an hour to get served some days...even when busy
> they will take the time to give customers advice. I now go during the week
> when they are quiet...Most of their staff are trained and qualified in
> various aspects of fish husbandry, disease etc. - even the lads/girls just
> doing it as a weekend job. A lot of them are also fish keepers...

$ It sure would be nice if we had that here in the US.

>> # There is little regulation where I live but people are starting to be
>> prosecuted for abusing pets and livestock. The UK has always been more
>> progressive where animals are concerned than the US.

> The British in general are very active when it comes to animal welfare. It
> is because of this that we now have the regulations in place to ensure as
> far as is humanely possible that animals are treated well. Of course there
> are times when this does not happen....hence the prosecutions. I would say
> all of the animal welfare groups are charities employing volunteers but
> they are backed by legislation and the courts - all pet and fish shops
> have to be licenced by the local authority who take complaints seriously
> and have the power to act.

$ We should be so lucky. I wish you could see the horrid conditions in some
of the pet shops here. :-(

> Maybe it's time you all started shouting about it as well :-)

$ Even mass demonstrations did no good during the VNam conflict. People
who fight for the rights of animals are seen as kooks and nutters in much of
the USA. Progress is made but it's extremely slow.....
--
Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastadaisy
~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>

Tynk

November 30th 05, 07:41 PM

Koi-lo wrote:
> "Gill Passman" > wrote in message
> news:438d9168$0$20534>>>>>>I'm not saying that >
> > The places I go refuse to sell a tank and fish on the same day..
>
> # At large chain pet stores? Here in TN they seldom ask you anything. The
> privately owned stores will often have the time to talk to each customer.
>
> .when
> > you actually go to get your first you get questioned to determine your
> > level of knowledge and then advise is given as appropriate - same
> > everywhere I've been. When I bought my two current bettas (at a place
> > where I wasn't known) I got questioned quite closely on the planned
> > accommodation - I guess he was worried I might put two males in the same
> > tank....
>
> # With bettas they will sometimes tell you this here as well. Most
> employees simply bag them up and hand them to you.
>
> I have known people to be refused fish and they still go back to
> > the same place - they go away and take the advice they have been given to
> > ensure that the best provision is made for their pets. One place I go
> > refuses to sell Clown Loaches to anyone with less than a 30 gall tank -
> > please let's not go get into a Clown Loach tank size discussion :-) . Sure
> > anyone can lie but in reality very few people do.
>
> > Cat and Dog Rescue Homes in the UK not only interrogate you as to how you
> > are going to care for your pet, some will actually insist on a home visit
> > to make sure that you have adequate care provisions and refuse to allow
> > you a dog or a cat if you don't.
>
> # This should be the LAW in every country. The abuse and neglect of dogs
> here in the USA is sickening.
>
> > With almost every animal that I buy/acquire I have been asked about how
> > I'm going to care for it....as I think I've already said, Livestock/pets
> > are heavily regulated here and there are a lot of prosecutions for people
> > not providing adequate care for their pets....
>
> # There is little regulation where I live but people are starting to be
> prosecuted for abusing pets and livestock. The UK has always been more
> progressive where animals are concerned than the US.
> --
>
> Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
> My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
> http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastadaisy
> ~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>

Koi-lo wrote:
> "Gill Passman" > wrote in message
> news:438d9168$0$20534>>>>>>I'm not saying that >
> > The places I go refuse to sell a tank and fish on the same day..
>
> # At large chain pet stores? Here in TN they seldom ask you anything. The
> privately owned stores will often have the time to talk to each customer.

I personally know of an employee at a Petsmart in TX that will refuse
to sell any of the animals they have if the care isn't what it should
be. She is also backed by that store's manager for doing so.
So, yes...even chain stores will do this, and some do it every day of
the week.
I am often the shoulder this persson needs after getting home from a
hard day at work where she had to deal with a hundred idiots that day.

Tynk

November 30th 05, 07:47 PM

Koi-lo wrote:
> "Tynk" > wrote in message
> oups.com...
> >
> > Koi-lo wrote:
> >> "Beano" > wrote in message
> >> oups.com...
> >> > Did someone say something about bettas costing $3 ??? In Australia, it
> >> > costs $15 for a male veil tail. Very expensive for a fish that only
> >> > lives for 2 years and are reasonably old when purchased. The females
> >> > cost about $10 here.
> >> =============================
> >> Regular bettas in my area cost $2.99 to $4.99 each (TN USA). The fancy
> >> ones
> >> cost about $2 more. Most are not old from what I see in the local
> >> stores.
> >> Females aren't always easy to find. They will run $1 or so less than
> >> the
> >> males.
> >> --
> >> Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
> >> My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
> >> http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastadaisy
> >> ~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>
> > Most are not old from what I see in the local stores.
> >> Females aren't always easy to find.
>
> > This is quite a generalization.
>
> $ That's why I said "in the local stores." I can't speak for what's being
> sold in Chicago, England or Canada. :-)
>
> > It really depends on the individual stores in the towns people live in.
> > When it comes to the chain stores...98% of their stock is fully grown
> > males. Petsmart do not carry females at all. They used to many years
> > ago, but stopped.
> > When it comes to locally owned shops,it depends on where they get their
> > stock, as to the ages of the fish and whether or not they carry
> > females.
> > If the shops out by you normally *only* sell young males, figure
> > yourself quitelucky as your town is a minority. Ditto with having
> > females in stock.
>
> $ I've gotten quite young fish in the "local stores" which add to how long
> they will be with me.
>
> > There are constantly folks posting here and a few other groups I visit,
> > and many emails coming directly to me asking where they can find
> > females without having to mail order them. I personally am the reason
> > why one particular PetCo always orders them, and am the reason why 2
> > other local mom and pop type shops even started carrying the females.
>
> $ The larger Wal*Mart stores where I live carry young females for $3.49
> each. I seldom see them in the privately owned shops.
>
> > Since those 2 local shops, and the one PetCo started stocking them on a
> > regular basis, they can't keep them in stock! Basically...you have to
> > be there when the truck comes in...I'm not kidding either. There's one
> > manager at this PetCo that will call me up, or even save certain color
> > lines or fin variations that I prefer. My hubby gets a kick out of
> > that.
> > He saw PetCo on the caller ID when the phone rang one day (it was that
> > manager) and he thought it was so funny that a pet store was calling me
> > to let me know they had certain fish in that day. Of course I though
> > it was perfectly normal. lol = )~
>
> # The Petco here (as well as PetsMart) has a contract with some wholesaler I
> was told, and so cannot purchase fish from private breeders.
> --
>
> Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
> My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
> http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastadaisy
> ~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>

>
> $ The larger Wal*Mart stores where I live carry young females for $3.49
> each. I seldom see them in the privately owned shops.
>
You shop for fish at Wal*mart?
I'mnot even touching that one with a ten foot pole!

My text and then your reply to my text:

> > Since those 2 local shops, and the one PetCo started stocking them on a
> > regular basis, they can't keep them in stock! Basically...you have to
> > be there when the truck comes in...I'm not kidding either. There's one
> > manager at this PetCo that will call me up, or even save certain color
> > lines or fin variations that I prefer. My hubby gets a kick out of
> > that.
> > He saw PetCo on the caller ID when the phone rang one day (it was that
> > manager) and he thought it was so funny that a pet store was calling me
> > to let me know they had certain fish in that day. Of course I though
> > it was perfectly normal. lol = )~
>
> # The Petco here (as well as PetsMart) has a contract with some wholesaler I
> was told, and so cannot purchase fish from private breeders.
> --

And what is the point of your telling me this? It had nothing to do
with the text that you copied from my post.
I never once mentioned PetCo or Petmsart buying fish from private
breeders.

James Evans

November 30th 05, 07:52 PM

"Koi-lo" > wrote in message
...

[snip snip]

> Maybe someone should fight for laws forcing the chains to train their
> employees before putting them out on the sales floor.

A law requiring competant employees? It'd never pass.... the
politicians would be legislating themselves out of their jobs.

James

Tynk

November 30th 05, 08:00 PM

James Evans wrote:
> I definitely saw some female bettas at my local Petsmart when we bought
> "Pinky" a couple weeks ago. I don't recall seeing them there before. Maybe
> they've decided to carry them again?
>
> James
>
> "Tynk" > wrote in message
> oups.com...
> >
> > Koi-lo wrote:
> >> "Beano" > wrote in message
> >> oups.com...
> >> > Did someone say something about bettas costing $3 ??? In Australia, it
> >> > costs $15 for a male veil tail. Very expensive for a fish that only
> >> > lives for 2 years and are reasonably old when purchased. The females
> >> > cost about $10 here.
> >> =============================
> >> Regular bettas in my area cost $2.99 to $4.99 each (TN USA). The fancy
> >> ones
> >> cost about $2 more. Most are not old from what I see in the local
> >> stores.
> >> Females aren't always easy to find. They will run $1 or so less than
> >> the
> >> males.
> >> --
> >> Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
> >> My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
> >> http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastadaisy
> >> ~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>
> > Most are not old from what I see in the local stores.
> >> Females aren't always easy to find.
> > This is quite a generalization.
> > It really depends on the individual stores in the towns people live in.
> > When it comes to the chain stores...98% of their stock is fully grown
> > males. Petsmart do not carry females at all. They used to many years
> > ago, but stopped.
> > When it comes to locally owned shops,it depends on where they get their
> > stock, as to the ages of the fish and whether or not they carry
> > females.
> > If the shops out by you normally *only* sell young males, figure
> > yourself quitelucky as your town is a minority. Ditto with having
> > females in stock.
> > There are constantly folks posting here and a few other groups I visit,
> > and many emails coming directly to me asking where they can find
> > females without having to mail order them. I personally am the reason
> > why one particular PetCo always orders them, and am the reason why 2
> > other local mom and pop type shops even started carrying the females.
> > Since those 2 local shops, and the one PetCo started stocking them on a
> > regular basis, they can't keep them in stock! Basically...you have to
> > be there when the truck comes in...I'm not kidding either. There's one
> > manager at this PetCo that will call me up, or even save certain color
> > lines or fin variations that I prefer. My hubby gets a kick out of
> > that.
> > He saw PetCo on the caller ID when the phone rang one day (it was that
> > manager) and he thought it was so funny that a pet store was calling me
> > to let me know they had certain fish in that day. Of course I though
> > it was perfectly normal. lol = )~
> >

James Evans wrote:
> I definitely saw some female bettas at my local Petsmart when we bought
> "Pinky" a couple weeks ago. I don't recall seeing them there before. Maybe
> they've decided to carry them again?
>
You know what....I totally forgot about them doing this last summer. I
spoke with the managers at 3 different Petsmart's because they had them
labeled "split tail Gourami's".
I was told that they were a "special purchase" and not something they
normally get it. The employees didn't (at the time) even know they were
female Bettas.
One store had 2 juvie males that were labeled "Split tail Gourami"
which were supposed to be female Bettas. Try explaining that one to an
employee that didn't have a clue in the first place.
I did ask if they were going to be getting them in on a regular basis
like they used to (yrs back) and the manager told me that they've never
carried female Bettas.
After pushing my eyeballs back into place, I explained that
yes...several yrs back female Bettas were sold in all the Petsmarts in
the US and that they stopped several yrs back..from what I was told by
the corp the reason was because nobody bought them as "they aren't as
colorful as the males are and no body bought them". (something which of
course isn't true. They are as colorful as all the males as, just not
at every moment).
I don't normally buy fish at all at Petsmart's (supplies only) but I
will check their Betta stock to see what the mass breeder's have done
to them and then walk away in disgust.
I've not seen females around these parts since early last summer.
However, from what I was told it's not a regular thing...and that they
get a "specials" list to chose from. This being if they have open
tanks, and they decide which "special" they would like a chance at
getting....meaning that they don't always get the "special" in, but
that in case their is some available, they would be shipped.
So basically, they're hardly ever even made available, and even so, it
doesn't mean that the person ordering the fish at that time will even
choose them off the "specials list".
Thanks for jump starting my memory! = )~ (medication I'm on has
killed it)

Gill Passman

November 30th 05, 08:06 PM

Tynk wrote:
> Koi-lo wrote:
>
>>"Gill Passman" > wrote in message
>>news:438d9168$0$20534>>>>>>I'm not saying that >
>>
>>>The places I go refuse to sell a tank and fish on the same day..
>>
>># At large chain pet stores? Here in TN they seldom ask you anything. The
>>privately owned stores will often have the time to talk to each customer.
>>
>>.when
>>
>>>you actually go to get your first you get questioned to determine your
>>>level of knowledge and then advise is given as appropriate - same
>>>everywhere I've been. When I bought my two current bettas (at a place
>>>where I wasn't known) I got questioned quite closely on the planned
>>>accommodation - I guess he was worried I might put two males in the same
>>>tank....
>>
>># With bettas they will sometimes tell you this here as well. Most
>>employees simply bag them up and hand them to you.
>>
>>I have known people to be refused fish and they still go back to
>>
>>>the same place - they go away and take the advice they have been given to
>>>ensure that the best provision is made for their pets. One place I go
>>>refuses to sell Clown Loaches to anyone with less than a 30 gall tank -
>>>please let's not go get into a Clown Loach tank size discussion :-) . Sure
>>>anyone can lie but in reality very few people do.
>>
>>>Cat and Dog Rescue Homes in the UK not only interrogate you as to how you
>>>are going to care for your pet, some will actually insist on a home visit
>>>to make sure that you have adequate care provisions and refuse to allow
>>>you a dog or a cat if you don't.
>>
>># This should be the LAW in every country. The abuse and neglect of dogs
>>here in the USA is sickening.
>>
>>
>>>With almost every animal that I buy/acquire I have been asked about how
>>>I'm going to care for it....as I think I've already said, Livestock/pets
>>>are heavily regulated here and there are a lot of prosecutions for people
>>>not providing adequate care for their pets....
>>
>># There is little regulation where I live but people are starting to be
>>prosecuted for abusing pets and livestock. The UK has always been more
>>progressive where animals are concerned than the US.
>>--
>>
>>Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
>>My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
>>http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastadaisy
>>~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>
>
>
>
> Koi-lo wrote:
>
>>"Gill Passman" > wrote in message
>>news:438d9168$0$20534>>>>>>I'm not saying that >
>>
>>>The places I go refuse to sell a tank and fish on the same day..
>>
>># At large chain pet stores? Here in TN they seldom ask you anything. The
>>privately owned stores will often have the time to talk to each customer.
>
>
> I personally know of an employee at a Petsmart in TX that will refuse
> to sell any of the animals they have if the care isn't what it should
> be. She is also backed by that store's manager for doing so.
> So, yes...even chain stores will do this, and some do it every day of
> the week.
> I am often the shoulder this persson needs after getting home from a
> hard day at work where she had to deal with a hundred idiots that day.
>

To a certain degree I'll agree with Carol here...anyone who demos
against cruelty to fish is going to be seen as a few shillings short of
a pound - however wrong that is....we certainly have our fair share of
animal right people like this over here....It is certainly hard
sometimes to get away from all people who care about their pets being
tarred with the same brush - ie. a little bit "kooks and nutters".

The key I'm sure is consumer pressure and education. Now I understand
that it is not always so easy to shop with your feet in a place where
your next store is miles away...England is so small in comparison - I
have at least 6 fish stores within 10 miles of me....one I have walked
away from they sold me the bettas with ich and Clowns with Ich and
velvet and when I went back told me ich was present in every tank and
that they had caught it in my tanks not theirs - grrr - plus the bettas
were in their own tanks (one a new setup) so there was no way they
caught it here....so I've walked - I will never go there again....but
they were the ones who questioned me over buying two male bettas at the
same time....

If you don't like what you see or hear the answer is to boycott the
place - they are in it commercially they don't want their customer's
leaving - tell them why you are doing it - they may try to win you back
by improving standards...obviously in the US as elsewhere you are on
dodgy ground if you bad mouth them....But what you can do is back up and
recommend those places that do do things right and give advice and care
- nothing wrong with personal recommendations in any country as far as
I'm aware. The other thing to bear in mind, and probably I'm a little
spoilt for choice so I can do this, is that these places are commercial
businesses...if you and others walk away questions will be asked by
management - if it is down to quality of stock and advice given you can
bet anything that this will get fixed....

Educate people in how to keep their fish correctly....either through
newsgroups, forums and just word of mouth. Tell people, OK but it would
be better if you did it this way....slowly the message will get through
and each of these people will spread the same message to others....

I think, as we appear to have drifted a little here I'll do a new
posting on how people see the quality of their LFS....should make
interesting reading :-)

Just burnt the dinner (woops) better go :-)
Gill

Gill Passman

November 30th 05, 08:09 PM

James Evans wrote:
> "Koi-lo" > wrote in message
> ...
>
> [snip snip]
>
>
>>Maybe someone should fight for laws forcing the chains to train their
>>employees before putting them out on the sales floor.
>
>
> A law requiring competant employees? It'd never pass.... the
> politicians would be legislating themselves out of their jobs.
>
> James
>
>
Of course the other option is to promote them to the true level of their
incompetence - LOL

Koi-lo

November 30th 05, 08:36 PM

"James Evans" <james.evansatflashpoint_com> wrote in message
. ..
>
> "Koi-lo" > wrote in message
> ...
>
> [snip snip]
>
>> Maybe someone should fight for laws forcing the chains to train their
>> employees before putting them out on the sales floor.
>
> A law requiring competant employees? It'd never pass.... the
> politicians would be legislating themselves out of their jobs.
>
> James
====================
LOL!!!! You got that right! :-D We can't even get the minimum wage
raised here in the USA. They pay their employees peanuts and they get what
they pay for.
--

Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastadaisy
~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>

Koi-lo

November 30th 05, 08:52 PM

"Gill Passman" > wrote in message
.. .
>
> To a certain degree I'll agree with Carol here...anyone who demos against
> cruelty to fish is going to be seen as a few shillings short of a pound -
> however wrong that is....we certainly have our fair share of animal right
> people like this over here....It is certainly hard sometimes to get away
> from all people who care about their pets being tarred with the same
> brush - ie. a little bit "kooks and nutters".

# There you go! It's all about MONEY here and the animals be damned in most
cases. Add to that everyone is so eager to sue everyone else over the least
little thing.

> The key I'm sure is consumer pressure and education. Now I understand that
> it is not always so easy to shop with your feet in a place where your next
> store is miles away...England is so small in comparison - I have at least
> 6 fish stores within 10 miles of me....

# Some of us have to drive 20+ miles to the nearest decent pet shop that
sells reasonably healthy fish. I have 5 stores but only one is really
close. One is so bad what with dead fish floating around the dirty looking
and poorly lit tanks I seldom stop there. The owner seems oblivious to the
conditions and the teenage employees come and go faster than you can say
"Jack Dempsy Cichlids." I wish I knew how he stayed in business.

one I have walked
> away from they sold me the bettas with ich and Clowns with Ich and velvet
> and when I went back told me ich was present in every tank and that they
> had caught it in my tanks not theirs - grrr - plus the bettas were in
> their own tanks (one a new setup) so there was no way they caught it
> here....so I've walked - I will never go there again....but they were the
> ones who questioned me over buying two male bettas at the same time....
>
> If you don't like what you see or hear the answer is to boycott the
> place - they are in it commercially they don't want their customer's
> leaving - tell them why you are doing it - they may try to win you back by
> improving standards...obviously in the US as elsewhere you are on dodgy
> ground if you bad mouth them....

# Yep! They'll sue you in a heartbeat.

> Educate people in how to keep their fish correctly....either through
> newsgroups, forums and just word of mouth. Tell people, OK but it would be
> better if you did it this way....slowly the message will get through and
> each of these people will spread the same message to others....

# We hope.......

> I think, as we appear to have drifted a little here I'll do a new posting
> on how people see the quality of their LFS....should make interesting
> reading :-)
>
> Just burnt the dinner (woops) better go :-)
> Gill
--
# I have a chicken thawing in a pot of water. Chicken and bowtie macaroni
tonight. :-) ~

Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastadaisy
~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>

Gill Passman

November 30th 05, 10:40 PM

Koi-lo wrote:
>
> "Gill Passman" > wrote in message
> .. .
>
>>
>> To a certain degree I'll agree with Carol here...anyone who demos
>> against cruelty to fish is going to be seen as a few shillings short
>> of a pound - however wrong that is....we certainly have our fair share
>> of animal right people like this over here....It is certainly hard
>> sometimes to get away from all people who care about their pets being
>> tarred with the same brush - ie. a little bit "kooks and nutters".
>

>
> # There you go! It's all about MONEY here and the animals be damned in
> most cases. Add to that everyone is so eager to sue everyone else over
> the least little thing.

Maybe it is an English saying...it means a "kooks and nutters" to quote
you....The suing thing is difficult and starting to invade us....but
surely common sense needs to prevail....
>
>> The key I'm sure is consumer pressure and education. Now I understand
>> that it is not always so easy to shop with your feet in a place where
>> your next store is miles away...England is so small in comparison - I
>> have at least 6 fish stores within 10 miles of me....
>
>
> # Some of us have to drive 20+ miles to the nearest decent pet shop that
> sells reasonably healthy fish. I have 5 stores but only one is really
> close. One is so bad what with dead fish floating around the dirty
> looking and poorly lit tanks I seldom stop there. The owner seems
> oblivious to the conditions and the teenage employees come and go faster
> than you can say "Jack Dempsy Cichlids." I wish I knew how he stayed
> in business.
>
I competetly understand what you are saying here...distance in the UK is
relative....you are so right not to go to the store that you disapprove
of....someone posted recently on u.r.a.m (the UK newsgroup) about
conditions he disapproved of asking who to report it to...in the UK all
"pet stores" are licensed...I'm pretty much sure it must be the same for
you guys...he complained to the licensing authority...they sent in an
inspector...without improvement this place would not be able to trade
ever again...might be an option...you don't even have to tell them your
name...

> one I have walked
>
>> away from they sold me the bettas with ich and Clowns with Ich and
>> velvet and when I went back told me ich was present in every tank and
>> that they had caught it in my tanks not theirs - grrr - plus the
>> bettas were in their own tanks (one a new setup) so there was no way
>> they caught it here....so I've walked - I will never go there
>> again....but they were the ones who questioned me over buying two male
>> bettas at the same time....
>>
>> If you don't like what you see or hear the answer is to boycott the
>> place - they are in it commercially they don't want their customer's
>> leaving - tell them why you are doing it - they may try to win you
>> back by improving standards...obviously in the US as elsewhere you are
>> on dodgy ground if you bad mouth them....
>
>
> # Yep! They'll sue you in a heartbeat.
>
The same applies here...you cannot defame anyone unless you have a
really good defence...ask for the governing authority to go take a look
- they will make up their own minds and it will be a spot check not the
usual appointment where things can be made good....over here you don't
have to give your name (but it won't hurt if you do because it is
confidential)....make that complaint....

>> Educate people in how to keep their fish correctly....either through
>> newsgroups, forums and just word of mouth. Tell people, OK but it
>> would be better if you did it this way....slowly the message will get
>> through and each of these people will spread the same message to
>> others....
>
>
> # We hope.......

Yeah, but there is no other way....if we don't try then this will all
continue forever....it must anger you greatly when you see your true
love fish Koi's mistreated and sold inappropiately...a lot of us get
passionate about our own fav fish....and it can get mistaken for being
adversary when we disagree with someone...it isn't it is just we want
the best for our fish and those that are trying to care for them....if I
bought Koi I'd listen to you, if I buy Betta I will listen to Christie
and Kelly - just the way I go....
>
>> I think, as we appear to have drifted a little here I'll do a new
>> posting on how people see the quality of their LFS....should make
>> interesting reading :-)
>>
>> Just burnt the dinner (woops) better go :-)
>> Gill

BTW what is bowtie macaroni? - sounds good as one of the only pasta
lovers in this household - any new pasta dish is good for me...

slightly charcolled dinner by OK

gill

NetMax

December 1st 05, 02:32 AM

"Koi-lo" > wrote in message
...
>
> "NetMax" > wrote in message
> .. .
>> "Koi-lo" > wrote in message
>> .com...
>>
>>> $$ There is no way to know how they will care for it once they leave
>>> the pet store or breeders facilities. That's probably the reason we
>>> don't have such laws here.
>> ============
>> If I might be so brash, that sounds like a cop-out.
>
> # What shop keeper would have the resources to check out the homes of
> the customers? If someone come in and said they have a 120 g tank how
> could it be proven without going out to their home? They may have a 5g
> and nothing more. A busy pet shop here may have hundreds of people
> going through the doors each day. Our local PetsMart is a zoo some
> days. How would they check everyone out? They sell hundreds of fish
> each day. I would think they'd go bankrupt paying for such a thing,
> don't you? Most of the stores selling fish here are chains, not
> privately owned.

I worked for a small chain, 38 stores. I was responsible for 3 stores
(fish dept only) and I developed training matrices for all fish
employees. My head office took my matrice and deployed it throughout the
other stores. The chains know how important customer service is, but
they are not equally capable of implementing the higher technical
knowledge required in fish depts as compared to other depts, birds, cats
etc.

I did go visit several homes and ponds, either for show & tell, or
technical/medical reasons (check out tank or fish problems). It's not
hard to catch a lie, and if they know enough to fool me, then they also
know enough to not have to, as they are telling the truth. I would be
asking my 'nosy questions' while catching the fish, so we had plenty of
time to chat for a minute or two. There were many instances when the new
information they were receiving caused them to change their minds, and
not buy a fish (small or overloaded tank) or to move me to another tank
as they were changing their selection to something more suitable.

Left to their own devices, some people would mix African mbuna with
Goldfish with Angelfish and add a pleco to eat the turds ;~). They are
not hostile for being steered in a more appropriate direction, and become
loyal customers for it. I'm only saying that it's possible for all
stores to do, and it makes business sense. They should not be left to
cop out. Pressure them with your buying power and letters.

> I never had trouble
>> establishing the conditions the fish were going into. I wasn't a nazi
>> grilling them. I'd just conversationally inquire about the
>> tank-mates, foods given, number of fish, size of tank.
>
> # You must be talking about a privately owned store. Where I live
> most are large chains that hire clueless teens or retired people.
> They're busy as heck and don't have the time to chat with the customers
> even if they wanted to. No store in the USA is going to pay the cost
> of special training for their minimum wage employees who come and go
> faster than the stock. Some offer a bit of advice as they bag your
> fish. Most are as I said are 100% clueless. :-(

That's pathetic. Anywhere I've lived (cities with at least 500,000
people), I've been able to find at least one store with competant help.
Reap what you sow might have some application.

> Almost 100% of them seemed
>> very eager to discuss their hobby with someone who cared and showed
>> knowledge.
>
> # I agree if the employee had the knowledge and the time that many
> fish-buyers would show eager interest. But many don't! You must be
> aware of who the stores in the USA hire?!?!?! Usually anyone who
> applies for the position is hired. These are seldom people with
> knowledge about the proper care of fish.

I hired many people, and the fish dept *is* the hardest to staff
competantly, because of the animal and technical diversity. My best
results were with retired hobbyists (who just needed a little
re-training) and very young teens (who were eager to learn). The age
group of 20 to 50 had very few suitable applicants. Because the majority
of the staff was teens, the training regimen was paramount. They had to
be paired to a hobbyist for a week, while doing training modules as we
had the time. It can all be done within the store's internal business
requirements. If mgmt is not supportive, then it just takes a bit
longer.

> Most people taking the fish into an abusive application were
>> unaware of it, and we informed them regarding growth rates and
>> eventual size (usually keeping Arowanas, Oscars, Koi, Pacus and
>> TinFoil barbs out of 5 to 10g tanks). The odd one would still tell me
>> the truth, but simply didn't care or it was a cultural thing. Only
>> once did someone outright lie, and it was quite obvious.
>>
>> Your attitude sounds like the same cop-out
>
> # Cop-out? I don't own these huge chains we have here nor do I have
> stock in any of them. :-) I have nothing to say as to how they're
> run, or by who, or how they hire they're employees. Are you suggesting
> we force these chains to hire and train people how to tell who is and
> isn't qualified to buy fish? To teach them about the hundreds of fish
> being sold in the USA? There are two problems with that. One is who
> PAYS for this training, especially when we all know these employees
> will soon be gone? The other is how many people are going to want such
> training when so few are interested in fish? Most are college kids
> who take these jobs here in the USA, not someone looking to make a
> long-term commitment to such a low-paying position.

Canadian teenagers on minimum wage are not so different from their
American counterparts (or Britains or Australians). Previous experience
was a hiring requirement (I even hired some who didn't have aquariums,
but grew up with them, or kept Bettas). Then the training began, on the
job, during the job (no extra expense, unless you wanted it accelerated).
My experience is real, not imagined.

For something you have no power over, you aren't having any trouble
making excuses for them. I'm sorry but this is a bit of a sore spot
(armchair apathy). Speak to the manager, offer to do a bit of training,
apply for part-time employment. The retirees I hired were not doing it
for the money, and they weren't the fastest, but they had knowledge,
patience and could teach the new recruits. Privately, they admited that
the minimum wage salary made little difference after a while. Work
became part of their social life, 2 or 3 days a week, putter around a
fish-store, talk to fellow hobbyists and teach something they loved to
talk about. Plus they would get deals on fish, plants and equipment,
could decorate lots of aquariums and could order all sorts of interesting
stuff. I'd highly recommend it for anyone getting into the retirement
years.

> used in the US regarding gun
>> control (or lack of), so maybe it's a cultural 'freedom' thing.
>
> # I'm sure it is. We have no right as Americans to dictate to a store
> keeper who he hires or what they're taught......

Your rights are as a consumer, to cause businesses to flourish or go
bankrupt, according to how well they meet your needs. If your needs are
to have the cheapest possible products with an absence of service, then
continue to buy from them and make excuses. The moral problem begins
when living creatures are involved, and I think there are countries which
have been a little slow at catching up.

ps: every letter of complaint directed to our store was scrutinized at
head office, before being emailed to the store's manager (or hand
delivered by a district manager). The manager would then have to respond
directly to the customer's complaint and forward the resolution to head
office. If your LFS is full of dead fish, you can email them a complaint
in less time than it would take to read my verbal diatribe.

> Almost
>> seems like the freedom being protected, is to take the easy way out.
>> --
>> www.NetMax.tk *stumbles off soapbox he didn't notice was there*
>
> # I'd still rather be HERE than any other country on earth. :-)))

lol, I think most of the world knows America's patriotism.

Canada has its share of crappy LFS too. Doesn't influence where I'd like
to live though, only where I'd like to visit (Georgia's Public Aquarium
is next on my agenda :o).
--
www.NetMax.tk

> --
>
> Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
> My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
> http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastadaisy
> ~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>
>
>
>

NetMax

December 1st 05, 03:24 AM

"NetMax" > wrote in message
.. .
> > wrote in message
> oups.com...
>> Ditto on the life expectency related to temperature. My bettas in
>> heated, 75 degree tanks, lived about 2 years from when I hatched them
>> from eggs. My girlfriend's, who were all in an unheated 10 gallon
>> tank, are all still alive. The mom of the bettas is now in her 4th
>> year in a 1 gallon unheated tank (68F/20C) and still quite active and
>> healthy. She's been fed only four betta pellets per day for most of
>> her life, which at first I thought was too little, but who am I to say
>> since hers has outlived most of my current fish.
>
<snip>
> If my texts are correct and their range is 70-90F, breeds at 80F, then
> they are more likely to be outside their optimal range in an unheated
> tank than in an overheated tank. Another variable is the lower O2
> levels in small heated tanks, but again the Betta throws a wrench into
> this with their labyrinth organ. I wonder if genetics, maintenance and
> not over-feeding are more critical to longevity than the water's
> temperature.

Slight retraction, while I have 2 books which reference 70-90F as their
temperature range, and a few others which just mention 78 and 80F for
breeding, I just came across one (Exotic Tropical Fishes, Axelrod) which
is quite specific in recommending that Bettas should NOT be kept at below
78F. Usually books give a range, and less frequently they only give a
min. or max., but it's unusual to see such a high minimum temperature. I
now expected to see a similar disparity amongst web sites, so I went to
fishbase.org for scientifically grounded information:
http://www.fishbase.org/Summary/speciesSummary.php?ID=4768&genusname=Betta&speciesname=splendens
or
http://www.fishbase.org/search.php and enter Betta splendens

They list the temperature range as 24-30C (75.2-86F). They also have
some interesting comments (esp. the last sentence), which I will paste:

/start/
Occur in standing waters of floodplains, canals, rice paddies (Ref.
12693) and medium to large rivers (Ref. 12975). Feeds on zooplankton,
mosquito and other insect larvae (Ref. 12693). Air breather and bubble
nest builder. Used in behavioral studies (Ref. 4537). Males will fight
each other. The many colorful varieties are popular aquarium fish,
however, the holding of the males in very small containers should be
discouraged (Ref. 1672). Aquarium keeping: several females for one male;
minimum aquarium size 60 cm (Ref. 51539).
/end/

I traced their ref# 1672 (small containers) to:
Riehl, R. and H.A. Baensch, 1991. Aquarien Atlas. Band. 1.. Melle:
Mergus, Verlag für Natur- und Heimtierkunde, Germany. 992 p.
which I think is 1991 volume 1 Baensch, page 992 (if anyone cares to
check, as I can't afford Baensch's books).

Their ref# 51539 (60 cm is a 24" tank) led here:
http://www.bml.de/index-272804D294E247F1BEF4F4F9D9C2BC4C.html
but it requires some German fluency to do a proper search, and that's not
a language I know.

Overall I'm starting to doubt a Betta's suitability to small non-heated
tanks (at least in Canada).
--
www.NetMax.tk

Tynk

December 1st 05, 04:57 AM

Gill Passman wrote:
> Koi-lo wrote:
> >
> > "Gill Passman" > wrote in message
> > .. .
> >
> >>
> >> To a certain degree I'll agree with Carol here...anyone who demos
> >> against cruelty to fish is going to be seen as a few shillings short
> >> of a pound - however wrong that is....we certainly have our fair share
> >> of animal right people like this over here....It is certainly hard
> >> sometimes to get away from all people who care about their pets being
> >> tarred with the same brush - ie. a little bit "kooks and nutters".
> >
>
>
> >
> > # There you go! It's all about MONEY here and the animals be damned in
> > most cases. Add to that everyone is so eager to sue everyone else over
> > the least little thing.
>
> Maybe it is an English saying...it means a "kooks and nutters" to quote
> you....The suing thing is difficult and starting to invade us....but
> surely common sense needs to prevail....
> >
> >> The key I'm sure is consumer pressure and education. Now I understand
> >> that it is not always so easy to shop with your feet in a place where
> >> your next store is miles away...England is so small in comparison - I
> >> have at least 6 fish stores within 10 miles of me....
> >
> >
> > # Some of us have to drive 20+ miles to the nearest decent pet shop that
> > sells reasonably healthy fish. I have 5 stores but only one is really
> > close. One is so bad what with dead fish floating around the dirty
> > looking and poorly lit tanks I seldom stop there. The owner seems
> > oblivious to the conditions and the teenage employees come and go faster
> > than you can say "Jack Dempsy Cichlids." I wish I knew how he stayed
> > in business.
> >
> I competetly understand what you are saying here...distance in the UK is
> relative....you are so right not to go to the store that you disapprove
> of....someone posted recently on u.r.a.m (the UK newsgroup) about
> conditions he disapproved of asking who to report it to...in the UK all
> "pet stores" are licensed...I'm pretty much sure it must be the same for
> you guys...he complained to the licensing authority...they sent in an
> inspector...without improvement this place would not be able to trade
> ever again...might be an option...you don't even have to tell them your
> name...
>
> > one I have walked
> >
> >> away from they sold me the bettas with ich and Clowns with Ich and
> >> velvet and when I went back told me ich was present in every tank and
> >> that they had caught it in my tanks not theirs - grrr - plus the
> >> bettas were in their own tanks (one a new setup) so there was no way
> >> they caught it here....so I've walked - I will never go there
> >> again....but they were the ones who questioned me over buying two male
> >> bettas at the same time....
> >>
> >> If you don't like what you see or hear the answer is to boycott the
> >> place - they are in it commercially they don't want their customer's
> >> leaving - tell them why you are doing it - they may try to win you
> >> back by improving standards...obviously in the US as elsewhere you are
> >> on dodgy ground if you bad mouth them....
> >
> >
> > # Yep! They'll sue you in a heartbeat.
> >
> The same applies here...you cannot defame anyone unless you have a
> really good defence...ask for the governing authority to go take a look
> - they will make up their own minds and it will be a spot check not the
> usual appointment where things can be made good....over here you don't
> have to give your name (but it won't hurt if you do because it is
> confidential)....make that complaint....
>
> >> Educate people in how to keep their fish correctly....either through
> >> newsgroups, forums and just word of mouth. Tell people, OK but it
> >> would be better if you did it this way....slowly the message will get
> >> through and each of these people will spread the same message to
> >> others....
> >
> >
> > # We hope.......
>
> Yeah, but there is no other way....if we don't try then this will all
> continue forever....it must anger you greatly when you see your true
> love fish Koi's mistreated and sold inappropiately...a lot of us get
> passionate about our own fav fish....and it can get mistaken for being
> adversary when we disagree with someone...it isn't it is just we want
> the best for our fish and those that are trying to care for them....if I
> bought Koi I'd listen to you, if I buy Betta I will listen to Christie
> and Kelly - just the way I go....
> >
> >> I think, as we appear to have drifted a little here I'll do a new
> >> posting on how people see the quality of their LFS....should make
> >> interesting reading :-)
> >>
> >> Just burnt the dinner (woops) better go :-)
> >> Gill
>
> BTW what is bowtie macaroni? - sounds good as one of the only pasta
> lovers in this household - any new pasta dish is good for me...
>
> slightly charcolled dinner by OK
>
> gill

> Yeah, but there is no other way....if we don't try then this will all
> continue forever....it must anger you greatly when you see your true
> love fish Koi's mistreated and sold inappropiately...a lot of us get
> passionate about our own fav fish....and it can get mistaken for being
> adversary when we disagree with someone...it isn't it is just we want
> the best for our fish and those that are trying to care for them....if I
> bought Koi I'd listen to you, if I buy Betta I will listen to Christie
> and Kelly - just the way I go....

Why thank you Gill.
And yes...you explained it perfectly. = )
Kelly

Tynk

December 1st 05, 05:11 AM

NetMax wrote:
> "NetMax" > wrote in message
> .. .
> > > wrote in message
> > oups.com...
> >> Ditto on the life expectency related to temperature. My bettas in
> >> heated, 75 degree tanks, lived about 2 years from when I hatched them
> >> from eggs. My girlfriend's, who were all in an unheated 10 gallon
> >> tank, are all still alive. The mom of the bettas is now in her 4th
> >> year in a 1 gallon unheated tank (68F/20C) and still quite active and
> >> healthy. She's been fed only four betta pellets per day for most of
> >> her life, which at first I thought was too little, but who am I to say
> >> since hers has outlived most of my current fish.
> >
> <snip>
> > If my texts are correct and their range is 70-90F, breeds at 80F, then
> > they are more likely to be outside their optimal range in an unheated
> > tank than in an overheated tank. Another variable is the lower O2
> > levels in small heated tanks, but again the Betta throws a wrench into
> > this with their labyrinth organ. I wonder if genetics, maintenance and
> > not over-feeding are more critical to longevity than the water's
> > temperature.
>
> Slight retraction, while I have 2 books which reference 70-90F as their
> temperature range, and a few others which just mention 78 and 80F for
> breeding, I just came across one (Exotic Tropical Fishes, Axelrod) which
> is quite specific in recommending that Bettas should NOT be kept at below
> 78F. Usually books give a range, and less frequently they only give a
> min. or max., but it's unusual to see such a high minimum temperature. I
> now expected to see a similar disparity amongst web sites, so I went to
> fishbase.org for scientifically grounded information:
> http://www.fishbase.org/Summary/speciesSummary.php?ID=4768&genusname=Betta&speciesname=splendens
> or
> http://www.fishbase.org/search.php and enter Betta splendens
>
> They list the temperature range as 24-30C (75.2-86F). They also have
> some interesting comments (esp. the last sentence), which I will paste:
>
> /start/
> Occur in standing waters of floodplains, canals, rice paddies (Ref.
> 12693) and medium to large rivers (Ref. 12975). Feeds on zooplankton,
> mosquito and other insect larvae (Ref. 12693). Air breather and bubble
> nest builder. Used in behavioral studies (Ref. 4537). Males will fight
> each other. The many colorful varieties are popular aquarium fish,
> however, the holding of the males in very small containers should be
> discouraged (Ref. 1672). Aquarium keeping: several females for one male;
> minimum aquarium size 60 cm (Ref. 51539).
> /end/
>
> I traced their ref# 1672 (small containers) to:
> Riehl, R. and H.A. Baensch, 1991. Aquarien Atlas. Band. 1.. Melle:
> Mergus, Verlag für Natur- und Heimtierkunde, Germany. 992 p.
> which I think is 1991 volume 1 Baensch, page 992 (if anyone cares to
> check, as I can't afford Baensch's books).
>
> Their ref# 51539 (60 cm is a 24" tank) led here:
> http://www.bml.de/index-272804D294E247F1BEF4F4F9D9C2BC4C.html
> but it requires some German fluency to do a proper search, and that's not
> a language I know.
>
> Overall I'm starting to doubt a Betta's suitability to small non-heated
> tanks (at least in Canada).
> --
> www.NetMax.tk

>
> Slight retraction, while I have 2 books which reference 70-90F as their
> temperature range, and a few others which just mention 78 and 80F for
> breeding, I just came across one (Exotic Tropical Fishes, Axelrod) which
> is quite specific in recommending that Bettas should NOT be kept at below
> 78F. Usually books give a range, and less frequently they only give a
> min. or max., but it's unusual to see such a high minimum temperature. I
> now expected to see a similar disparity amongst web sites, so I went to
> fishbase.org for scientifically grounded information:
> http://www.fishbase.org/Summary/speciesSummary.php?ID=4768&genusname=Betta&speciesname=splendens
> or
> http://www.fishbase.org/search.php and enter Betta splendens
>
> They list the temperature range as 24-30C (75.2-86F). They also have
> some interesting comments (esp. the last sentence), which I will paste:
>
> /start/
> Occur in standing waters of floodplains, canals, rice paddies (Ref.
> 12693) and medium to large rivers (Ref. 12975). Feeds on zooplankton,
> mosquito and other insect larvae (Ref. 12693). Air breather and bubble
> nest builder. Used in behavioral studies (Ref. 4537). Males will fight
> each other. The many colorful varieties are popular aquarium fish,
> however, the holding of the males in very small containers should be
> discouraged (Ref. 1672). Aquarium keeping: several females for one male;
> minimum aquarium size 60 cm (Ref. 51539).
> /end/
>
> I traced their ref# 1672 (small containers) to:
> Riehl, R. and H.A. Baensch, 1991. Aquarien Atlas. Band. 1.. Melle:
> Mergus, Verlag für Natur- und Heimtierkunde, Germany. 992 p.
> which I think is 1991 volume 1 Baensch, page 992 (if anyone cares to
> check, as I can't afford Baensch's books).
>
> Their ref# 51539 (60 cm is a 24" tank) led here:
> http://www.bml.de/index-272804D294E247F1BEF4F4F9D9C2BC4C.html
> but it requires some German fluency to do a proper search, and that's not
> a language I know.
>
> Overall I'm starting to doubt a Betta's suitability to small non-heated
> tanks (at least in Canada).
> --
> www.NetMax.tk

THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU!!!!!!
This is what I have been saying for nearly 28 years!!!!
I wouldn't say it if I didn't know it in my heart as true.
I have specialized in these fish (as well as Angelfish) and am
constantly argued with about these facts.
Facts that I know are absolutely true.......
No matter how "fine" people think their Bettas are doing in tiny,
unheated bowls, they are NOT.
::Stands proudly on top of soap box with my Betta-cape flowing in the
wind behind me as I gaze into the sunset::

Koi-lo

December 1st 05, 06:34 AM

"Gill Passman" > wrote in message
.. .
> Koi-lo wrote:
>>
>> # Some of us have to drive 20+ miles to the nearest decent pet shop that
>> sells reasonably healthy fish. I have 5 stores but only one is really
>> close. One is so bad what with dead fish floating around the dirty
>> looking and poorly lit tanks I seldom stop there. The owner seems
>> oblivious to the conditions and the teenage employees come and go faster
>> than you can say "Jack Dempsy Cichlids." I wish I knew how he stayed in
>> business.
>>
> I competetly understand what you are saying here...distance in the UK is
> relative....you are so right not to go to the store that you disapprove
> of....someone posted recently on u.r.a.m (the UK newsgroup) about
> conditions he disapproved of asking who to report it to...in the UK all
> "pet stores" are licensed...I'm pretty much sure it must be the same for
> you guys...

## All businesses here are Lic. as far as I know but no one inspects pet
shops. When I called the Animal Shelter several years ago to complain about
the horrible conditions in a local chain store's pet dept. I was told they
have no authority over pet stores. There was no one to call. :*( I
called the main office of this well known store to complain, I still got
nowhere. If you saw the miserable conditions some of their fish (especially
the bettas) exist in you would be sick. The store manager keeps promising
to have the section cleaned up - yeah, right!

he complained to the licensing authority...they sent in an
> inspector...without improvement this place would not be able to trade ever
> again...might be an option...you don't even have to tell them your name...

## There is nothing like that here that I know of - where pet stores are
concerned.

>>> Just burnt the dinner (woops) better go :-)
>>> Gill

> BTW what is bowtie macaroni? - sounds good as one of the only pasta lovers
> in this household - any new pasta dish is good for me...

## They're bowtie shaped macaroni that go great with boiled chicken.
They're thicker and heavier than eggnoodles. After the chicken is done I
remove it (and brown it in the oven at 375F) from the water and boil the
bowties (or eggnoodles sometimes) in the flavored water. The water is
flavored with chicken bouillon, sliced onions, garlic, carrots and an
assortment of seasonings such as Morton's Nature's Season Blend and
McCormick's Montreal Chicken seasoning. The fat is not skimmed from the
pot. It's a great recipe and tastes even better the next day making great
leftovers. :-)

> slightly charcolled dinner by OK

## LOL! :-D I hear you........
>
> gill
--

Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastadaisy
~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>

Koi-lo

December 1st 05, 07:05 AM

"NetMax" > wrote in message
.. .
> "Koi-lo" > wrote in message
> ...
>>
>> "NetMax" > wrote in message
>> .. .
>>> "Koi-lo" > wrote in message
>>> .com...
>>>
>>>> $$ There is no way to know how they will care for it once they leave
>>>> the pet store or breeders facilities. That's probably the reason we
>>>> don't have such laws here.
>>> ============
>>> If I might be so brash, that sounds like a cop-out.
>>
>> # What shop keeper would have the resources to check out the homes of
>> the customers? If someone come in and said they have a 120 g tank how
>> could it be proven without going out to their home? They may have a 5g
>> and nothing more. A busy pet shop here may have hundreds of people going
>> through the doors each day. Our local PetsMart is a zoo some days. How
>> would they check everyone out? They sell hundreds of fish each day. I
>> would think they'd go bankrupt paying for such a thing, don't you? Most
>> of the stores selling fish here are chains, not privately owned.
--------------------
> I worked for a small chain, 38 stores. I was responsible for 3 stores
> (fish dept only) and I developed training matrices for all fish employees.
> My head office took my matrice and deployed it throughout the other
> stores. The chains know how important customer service is, but they are
> not equally capable of implementing the higher technical knowledge
> required in fish depts as compared to other depts, birds, cats etc.
>
> I did go visit several homes and ponds, either for show & tell, or
> technical/medical reasons (check out tank or fish problems). It's not
> hard to catch a lie, and if they know enough to fool me, then they also
> know enough to not have to, as they are telling the truth. I would be
> asking my 'nosy questions' while catching the fish, so we had plenty of
> time to chat for a minute or two. There were many instances when the new
> information they were receiving caused them to change their minds, and not
> buy a fish (small or overloaded tank) or to move me to another tank as
> they were changing their selection to something more suitable.

## Oh, yes this does happen in some of the chains. I remember a fish buyer
telling the salesperson they didn't want the fish after they were told they
were fin nippers. Usually the sales person either says nothing while
catching and bagging the fish or tries to answer the person's questions
giving dubious or wrong advice. The Petco where I recently bought my new
pearlscale goldfish had a very knowledgeable middle age man working the fish
dept. I enjoyed talking to him while he caught and bagged my fish. You
could tell he really cared about his charges. If these stores would pay
their employees a living wage and gave them decent benefits they'd get and
keep better employees.

> Left to their own devices, some people would mix African mbuna with
> Goldfish with Angelfish and add a pleco to eat the turds ;~). They are
> not hostile for being steered in a more appropriate direction, and become
> loyal customers for it. I'm only saying that it's possible for all stores
> to do, and it makes business sense. They should not be left to cop out.
> Pressure them with your buying power and letters.

> That's pathetic. Anywhere I've lived (cities with at least 500,000
> people), I've been able to find at least one store with competant help.
> Reap what you sow might have some application.

>> Almost 100% of them seemed
>>> very eager to discuss their hobby with someone who cared and showed
>>> knowledge.
>>
>> # I agree if the employee had the knowledge and the time that many
>> fish-buyers would show eager interest. But many don't! You must be
>> aware of who the stores in the USA hire?!?!?! Usually anyone who
>> applies for the position is hired. These are seldom people with
>> knowledge about the proper care of fish.

> I hired many people, and the fish dept *is* the hardest to staff
> competantly, because of the animal and technical diversity. My best
> results were with retired hobbyists (who just needed a little re-training)
> and very young teens (who were eager to learn). The age group of 20 to 50
> had very few suitable applicants. Because the majority of the staff was
> teens, the training regimen was paramount. They had to be paired to a
> hobbyist for a week, while doing training modules as we had the time. It
> can all be done within the store's internal business requirements. If
> mgmt is not supportive, then it just takes a bit longer.

# I agree these things CAN be done, but somehow I feel it will be years in
the future where most of us American's live. If the chains here would hire
more mature people, give them some serious training where fish, birds and
small animals were concerned, pay them a living wage with decent benefits
there would be less employee turnover. There would be less loss of fish and
animal life when the wrong pet to out the door, dies and has to be replaced.
And I still believe handing out small cheap booklets or brochures on the
basic care of these creatures would also help.

>> # Cop-out? I don't own these huge chains we have here nor do I have
>> stock in any of them. :-) I have nothing to say as to how they're run,
>> or by who, or how they hire they're employees. Are you suggesting we
>> force these chains to hire and train people how to tell who is and isn't
>> qualified to buy fish? To teach them about the hundreds of fish being
>> sold in the USA? There are two problems with that. One is who PAYS for
>> this training, especially when we all know these employees will soon be
>> gone? The other is how many people are going to want such training when
>> so few are interested in fish? Most are college kids who take these
>> jobs here in the USA, not someone looking to make a long-term commitment
>> to such a low-paying position.

> Canadian teenagers on minimum wage are not so different from their
> American counterparts (or Britains or Australians). Previous experience
> was a hiring requirement (I even hired some who didn't have aquariums, but
> grew up with them, or kept Bettas). Then the training began, on the job,
> during the job (no extra expense, unless you wanted it accelerated). My
> experience is real, not imagined.

> For something you have no power over, you aren't having any trouble making
> excuses for them.

## What would you have me say? Just because I'm telling you why it is the
way it is here doesn't mean I agree with the system. See above.

I'm sorry but this is a bit of a sore spot
> (armchair apathy). Speak to the manager, offer to do a bit of training,
> apply for part-time employment. The retirees I hired were not doing it
> for the money, and they weren't the fastest, but they had knowledge,
> patience and could teach the new recruits. Privately, they admited that
> the minimum wage salary made little difference after a while. Work became
> part of their social life, 2 or 3 days a week, putter around a fish-store,
> talk to fellow hobbyists and teach something they loved to talk about.

## Hey,... how do you think I saw the things I saw and heard? It wasn't
just hanging around my favorite shops although I did plenty of that in my
day. After I retired I worked part time for awhile in a Shop that
specialized in fish and birds (hookbills). Unfortunately they had a very
bad location off the beaten path and went under after a year.

Plus they would get deals on fish, plants and equipment,
> could decorate lots of aquariums and could order all sorts of interesting
> stuff. I'd highly recommend it for anyone getting into the retirement
> years.

## I was thinking about applying for a part time position at one of the
chains here. Retirement is nice but I do miss the social aspects of
working.

>> # I'm sure it is. We have no right as Americans to dictate to a store
>> keeper who he hires or what they're taught......

> Your rights are as a consumer, to cause businesses to flourish or go
> bankrupt, according to how well they meet your needs. If your needs are
> to have the cheapest possible products with an absence of service, then
> continue to buy from them and make excuses. The moral problem begins when
> living creatures are involved, and I think there are countries which have
> been a little slow at catching up.

## And my country is one of them. I cannot locate anyone to complain to
about the conditions I'm aware of at a large well known store's pet dept.
The manager agrees, claims he'll have the "problems" taken care of and
doesn't. What can a person do? It's frustrating and aggravating.... no
one cares!!!

> ps: every letter of complaint directed to our store was scrutinized at
> head office, before being emailed to the store's manager (or hand
> delivered by a district manager). The manager would then have to respond
> directly to the customer's complaint and forward the resolution to head
> office. If your LFS is full of dead fish, you can email them a complaint
> in less time than it would take to read my verbal diatribe.

## This may work with a Petco or Superpets but what about a Wal*Mart or
privately owned store where the owner is oblivious?

>> # I'd still rather be HERE than any other country on earth. :-)))

> lol, I think most of the world knows America's patriotism.

> Canada has its share of crappy LFS too. Doesn't influence where I'd like
> to live though, only where I'd like to visit (Georgia's Public Aquarium is
> next on my agenda :o)

## Enjoy your visit there. ;-)
--

Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastadaisy
~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>

Gill Passman

December 1st 05, 03:09 PM

NetMax wrote:
> "Gill Passman" > wrote in message
> .. .
>
>>IDzine01 wrote:
>>
>>>Wow. $15 Australian equates to about $11 US. That's still expensive. I
>>>wonder why.
>>>
>>
>>Bettas cost between £5 and £7 sterling over here depending on the
>>quality of the fish. Females are a bit cheaper....
>>
>>Gill
>
>
> $4 to $6 cdn, so North America seems to be in sync. At £5 to £7 you
> might be paying the most.

Saw one today at £4.75 but he wasn't the best of specimens (thought I'd
better double check the price I said....females were £2.35 each or 3 for
£6 - so yep, looks like the UK pay the most

Gill

FishNoob

December 1st 05, 03:13 PM

In article >,
says...
> Yep, even Pets at Home (which I think is the same company as PetSmart)
> in the UK will refuse to sell a tank and fish on the same day

I don't know if this is a chain-wide policy though - my local Pets at
Home was quite willing to sell me fish when I bought my tank.
Fortunately I knew better (mostly from hanging out here :-))

--
FishNoob
who just picked up a new aquarium, twice as big as the current one
:-)

Gill Passman

December 1st 05, 03:24 PM

FishNoob wrote:
> In article >,
> says...
>
>>Yep, even Pets at Home (which I think is the same company as PetSmart)
>>in the UK will refuse to sell a tank and fish on the same day
>
>
> I don't know if this is a chain-wide policy though - my local Pets at
> Home was quite willing to sell me fish when I bought my tank.
> Fortunately I knew better (mostly from hanging out here :-))
>
Maybe it does depend on the person serving you...on the rare occassions
I've been to Pets at Home here actually finding anyone to serve is a bit
like looking for a needle in a haystack...the person we bought the tank
from appeared to me quite knowledgable (not that I really knew any
different) and it was him who refused to sell us fish at the same
time...not that we asked him to because we already knew that you had to
set it up first - he just dropped it into the conversation along with
"buy as big a tank as you can afford - you'll be back for another one
anyway but it might mean a few more weeks before this happens" (I seem
to remember lasting 2-3 weeks when we got the next tank - and this was
before any fish had got near the original one)

Gill

Gill Passman

December 1st 05, 03:25 PM

FishNoob

December 1st 05, 03:40 PM

In article >,
says...
> Sorry I missed that last bit after your signature....how many is that
> now? and how big? :-)

LOL

Just two tanks - my original one which is the Rena that's much the
same as the Rekord 60, and the new one, which is a Juwel Rio 125 like
this one: http://www.aquatics-direct.co.uk/itemsviewer.asp?ID=855
&type= It's second-hand, but has only been very lightly-used, and is
in great condition; I think it's a bargain at £125 (including the
stand shown in that pic). All I need to add is a background, gravel
and fish :-)

I'm still working on getting that black molly back to health before I
do anything with it though, in case I need to quarantine her. I was
going to quarantine her when I got it, but haven't been able to get
out to get gravel etc yet (lots of sick people in this house this
week).

The Rio 125 is going to be a community tank. I haven't decided what
to do with the Rena yet; I may keep it as a quarantine tank. Or I may
put goldfish in it and use the heater with a new filter in a new
smaller tank as a quarantine tank. Or I might use it as a specialty
tropical tank...

(I'm starting to sound like the rest of you, aren't I? LOL)

--
FishNoob

Gill Passman

December 1st 05, 05:14 PM

FishNoob wrote:
> In article >,
> says...
>
>>Sorry I missed that last bit after your signature....how many is that
>>now? and how big? :-)
>
>
> LOL
>
> Just two tanks - my original one which is the Rena that's much the
> same as the Rekord 60, and the new one, which is a Juwel Rio 125 like
> this one: http://www.aquatics-direct.co.uk/itemsviewer.asp?ID=855
> &type= It's second-hand, but has only been very lightly-used, and is
> in great condition; I think it's a bargain at £125 (including the
> stand shown in that pic). All I need to add is a background, gravel
> and fish :-)
>
> I'm still working on getting that black molly back to health before I
> do anything with it though, in case I need to quarantine her. I was
> going to quarantine her when I got it, but haven't been able to get
> out to get gravel etc yet (lots of sick people in this house this
> week).
>
> The Rio 125 is going to be a community tank. I haven't decided what
> to do with the Rena yet; I may keep it as a quarantine tank. Or I may
> put goldfish in it and use the heater with a new filter in a new
> smaller tank as a quarantine tank. Or I might use it as a specialty
> tropical tank...
>
> (I'm starting to sound like the rest of you, aren't I? LOL)
>

Bet you don't get rid of the Rena - lol...Looks like a bargin to me :-)

Of course you realise that tank number two (3,4,5,6,7.....) is much
easier to set up than your first tank. I suggest that maybe you post
something on seeding tanks which is basically taking bacteria from your
established tank and putting it into the new tank...greatly speeds up
the process and is safer the fish - especially as we don't have access
to these bacteria kick-start products available in the states.

Let us know what you decide to put in there

Gill

Gill Passman

December 2nd 05, 12:30 AM

Koi-lo wrote:
>
> "Gill Passman" > wrote in message
> .. .
>
>> Koi-lo wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> # Some of us have to drive 20+ miles to the nearest decent pet shop
>>> that sells reasonably healthy fish. I have 5 stores but only one is
>>> really close. One is so bad what with dead fish floating around the
>>> dirty looking and poorly lit tanks I seldom stop there. The owner
>>> seems oblivious to the conditions and the teenage employees come and
>>> go faster than you can say "Jack Dempsy Cichlids." I wish I knew
>>> how he stayed in business.
>>>
>> I competetly understand what you are saying here...distance in the UK
>> is relative....you are so right not to go to the store that you
>> disapprove of....someone posted recently on u.r.a.m (the UK newsgroup)
>> about conditions he disapproved of asking who to report it to...in the
>> UK all "pet stores" are licensed...I'm pretty much sure it must be the
>> same for you guys...
>
>
> ## All businesses here are Lic. as far as I know but no one inspects pet
> shops. When I called the Animal Shelter several years ago to complain
> about the horrible conditions in a local chain store's pet dept. I was
> told they have no authority over pet stores. There was no one to call.
> :*( I called the main office of this well known store to complain, I
> still got nowhere. If you saw the miserable conditions some of their
> fish (especially the bettas) exist in you would be sick. The store
> manager keeps promising to have the section cleaned up - yeah, right!
>
> he complained to the licensing authority...they sent in an
>
>> inspector...without improvement this place would not be able to trade
>> ever again...might be an option...you don't even have to tell them
>> your name...
>
>
> ## There is nothing like that here that I know of - where pet stores are
> concerned.
>
>>>> Just burnt the dinner (woops) better go :-)
>>>> Gill
>
>
>> BTW what is bowtie macaroni? - sounds good as one of the only pasta
>> lovers in this household - any new pasta dish is good for me...
>
>
> ## They're bowtie shaped macaroni that go great with boiled chicken.
> They're thicker and heavier than eggnoodles. After the chicken is done
> I remove it (and brown it in the oven at 375F) from the water and boil
> the bowties (or eggnoodles sometimes) in the flavored water. The water
> is flavored with chicken bouillon, sliced onions, garlic, carrots and an
> assortment of seasonings such as Morton's Nature's Season Blend and
> McCormick's Montreal Chicken seasoning. The fat is not skimmed from the
> pot. It's a great recipe and tastes even better the next day making
> great leftovers. :-)
>
>> slightly charcolled dinner by OK
>
>
> ## LOL! :-D I hear you........
>
>>
>> gill

very off topic but that sounds great to me...we have the same stuff over
here we just call it bow pasta....amazing how many shapes it comes in
and how much the overall shape effects the flavour....it's hubby that
doesn't like pasta so I might inflict it on the kids when he is working
nights - lol

I agree stews and similar concotions taste better after they mature for
a day or two...nothing better than a good Irish stew that has sat for
two days...problem is we have a nanny state drumming into us that
reheating food causes all sorts of health issues - didn't notice me
getting sick when my mother did it - lol. Actually I believe it is down
to the younger generation not being taught how to cook or even basic
food hygeine....my hubby is younger than me and the number of times I
have to move the uncooked stuff below the cooked or veg in the fridge is
unbelievable....I now look after the fridge....Yeah, yeah, you
lot...this is off topic but we can all rant sometimes....

My current favourite is this....very unhealthy I'm sure but the
combination to the taste buds is just wonderful.....

Cube and part boil some potatoes and then shallow fry them
Chop up some real thick gammon steak and fry it separately
Chop up some leeks and add them to the potatoe after around 5-10 mins
and fry them
Pour in the gammon plus the juice
Cube some cheese (I use cheddar)
Stir fry until the cheese has melted

Serve up trying to lose as much grease as possible....absolutely
divine...if you really want the health kick you could add a salad but as
we mainly eat a healthy diet once in a while I don't care...

Kids getting the pasta dish next time hubby is away on nights...

To get back on topic...I went to the LFS today and they have a big sign
of what they will and won't do or sell....I'll ask for a copy next time
I go, or sit with a pen and scribble it down....these values are what
every LFS should follow wherever they are....take them in to your local
store and have them deny it isn't right...in other words go for it
girl.....we can make a difference but if we sit quietly nothing will
change....BTW I do feel a little bit odd on the girl thing...I'm sure
you are not too much older than me but I'm equally sure you won't take
offence (or at least I hope not)

Gill

Koi-lo

December 2nd 05, 01:48 AM

"Gill Passman" > wrote in message
.. .
>
> Cube and part boil some potatoes and then shallow fry them
> Chop up some real thick gammon steak and fry it separately
> Chop up some leeks and add them to the potatoe after around 5-10 mins and
> fry them
> Pour in the gammon plus the juice
> Cube some cheese (I use cheddar)
> Stir fry until the cheese has melted
up trying to lose as much grease as possible....absolutely
> divine...if you really want the health kick you could add a salad but as
> we mainly eat a healthy diet once in a while I don't care...

## That sounds really fine - if a bit fattening! :-) I may try that
recipe. I'm always looking for something new to try. I saw a recipe for
"cheesy chicken" on another NG and it's now made regularly as my husband and
I are crazy about it. It fits the low-carb menu we try and stick to.

> Kids getting the pasta dish next time hubby is away on nights...

> To get back on topic...I went to the LFS today and they have a big sign of
> what they will and won't do or sell....I'll ask for a copy next time I go,
> or sit with a pen and scribble it down....these values are what every LFS
> should follow wherever they are....take them in to your local store and
> have them deny it isn't right...in other words go for it girl.....we can
> make a difference but if we sit quietly nothing will change....BTW I do
> feel a little bit odd on the girl thing...I'm sure you are not too much
> older than me but I'm equally sure you won't take offence (or at least I
> hope not)

## I'll soon be 61 but don't look it, feel it or act it. :-) And I don't
offend easily. I checked out a new pet shop in the nearest town today
called PetSupermarket. They opened a few weeks ago. They don't specialize
in fish but do carry a reasonable selection. Everything looked healthy,
clean and well fed. Unfortunately they had no male bettas or clown loaches
left. The 3 female bettas were in clean 16 oz.containers. They're due a
shipment in next week. They have a small selection of fancy goldfish that
were of surprisingly good quality - needless to say I came home with a
beautiful gold "bubble eye" or Celestial Goldfish. They also carry frozen
foods so I picked up the mixed pack (contains blood worms, Brine shrimp etc)
I was really after. The owners are two older women. The one was very
knowledgeable where fish are concerned and told me she has many tanks in her
house. Her and her husband have been fish addicts for years, she said. I
got the impression the other lady, the more quiet, older one, was more into
the cat and dog end. They'll definitely get my business again.

I didn't mention I set up 2 more 10 gallon tanks in my dining room. I can
watch the new GF from my desk here by the window. I still have 2 more 10s
and a 30gLong in storage outside. I moved 2 male bettas into square gallon
cookie jars but that was all I could find. I did come up with two more 2
gallon tanks from my outbuilding but don't have the room to set them up
until after the holidays.

Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastadaisy
~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>

NetMax

December 2nd 05, 04:39 AM

"FishNoob" > wrote in message
...
> In article >,
> says...
>> Yep, even Pets at Home (which I think is the same company as PetSmart)
>> in the UK will refuse to sell a tank and fish on the same day
>
> I don't know if this is a chain-wide policy though - my local Pets at
> Home was quite willing to sell me fish when I bought my tank.
> Fortunately I knew better (mostly from hanging out here :-))
>
> --
> FishNoob
> who just picked up a new aquarium, twice as big as the current one
> :-)

Don't say we didn't warn you ;~)
--
www.NetMax.tk

NetMax

December 2nd 05, 06:16 AM

"Koi-lo" > wrote in message
...
>
> "NetMax" > wrote in message
> .. .
>> "Koi-lo" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>>
>>> "NetMax" > wrote in message
>>> .. .
>>>> "Koi-lo" > wrote in message
>>>> .com...
>>>>
>>>>> $$ There is no way to know how they will care for it once they
>>>>> leave the pet store or breeders facilities. That's probably the
>>>>> reason we don't have such laws here.
>>>> ============
>>>> If I might be so brash, that sounds like a cop-out.
>>>
>>> # What shop keeper would have the resources to check out the homes
>>> of the customers? If someone come in and said they have a 120 g tank
>>> how could it be proven without going out to their home? They may
>>> have a 5g and nothing more. A busy pet shop here may have hundreds
>>> of people going through the doors each day. Our local PetsMart is a
>>> zoo some days. How would they check everyone out? They sell
>>> hundreds of fish each day. I would think they'd go bankrupt paying
>>> for such a thing, don't you? Most of the stores selling fish here
>>> are chains, not privately owned.
> --------------------
>> I worked for a small chain, 38 stores. I was responsible for 3 stores
>> (fish dept only) and I developed training matrices for all fish
>> employees. My head office took my matrice and deployed it throughout
>> the other stores. The chains know how important customer service is,
>> but they are not equally capable of implementing the higher technical
>> knowledge required in fish depts as compared to other depts, birds,
>> cats etc.
>>
>> I did go visit several homes and ponds, either for show & tell, or
>> technical/medical reasons (check out tank or fish problems). It's not
>> hard to catch a lie, and if they know enough to fool me, then they
>> also know enough to not have to, as they are telling the truth. I
>> would be asking my 'nosy questions' while catching the fish, so we had
>> plenty of time to chat for a minute or two. There were many instances
>> when the new information they were receiving caused them to change
>> their minds, and not buy a fish (small or overloaded tank) or to move
>> me to another tank as they were changing their selection to something
>> more suitable.
>
> ## Oh, yes this does happen in some of the chains. I remember a fish
> buyer telling the salesperson they didn't want the fish after they were
> told they were fin nippers. Usually the sales person either says
> nothing while catching and bagging the fish or tries to answer the
> person's questions giving dubious or wrong advice. The Petco where I
> recently bought my new pearlscale goldfish had a very knowledgeable
> middle age man working the fish dept. I enjoyed talking to him while
> he caught and bagged my fish. You could tell he really cared about his
> charges. If these stores would pay their employees a living wage and
> gave them decent benefits they'd get and keep better employees.
>
>> Left to their own devices, some people would mix African mbuna with
>> Goldfish with Angelfish and add a pleco to eat the turds ;~). They
>> are not hostile for being steered in a more appropriate direction, and
>> become loyal customers for it. I'm only saying that it's possible for
>> all stores to do, and it makes business sense. They should not be
>> left to cop out. Pressure them with your buying power and letters.
>
>> That's pathetic. Anywhere I've lived (cities with at least 500,000
>> people), I've been able to find at least one store with competant
>> help. Reap what you sow might have some application.
>
>>> Almost 100% of them seemed
>>>> very eager to discuss their hobby with someone who cared and showed
>>>> knowledge.
>>>
>>> # I agree if the employee had the knowledge and the time that many
>>> fish-buyers would show eager interest. But many don't! You must be
>>> aware of who the stores in the USA hire?!?!?! Usually anyone who
>>> applies for the position is hired. These are seldom people with
>>> knowledge about the proper care of fish.
>
>> I hired many people, and the fish dept *is* the hardest to staff
>> competantly, because of the animal and technical diversity. My best
>> results were with retired hobbyists (who just needed a little
>> re-training) and very young teens (who were eager to learn). The age
>> group of 20 to 50 had very few suitable applicants. Because the
>> majority of the staff was teens, the training regimen was paramount.
>> They had to be paired to a hobbyist for a week, while doing training
>> modules as we had the time. It can all be done within the store's
>> internal business requirements. If mgmt is not supportive, then it
>> just takes a bit longer.
>
> # I agree these things CAN be done, but somehow I feel it will be years
> in the future where most of us American's live. If the chains here
> would hire more mature people, give them some serious training where
> fish, birds and small animals were concerned, pay them a living wage
> with decent benefits there would be less employee turnover. There
> would be less loss of fish and animal life when the wrong pet to out
> the door, dies and has to be replaced. And I still believe handing out
> small cheap booklets or brochures on the basic care of these creatures
> would also help.
>
>>> # Cop-out? I don't own these huge chains we have here nor do I have
>>> stock in any of them. :-) I have nothing to say as to how they're
>>> run, or by who, or how they hire they're employees. Are you
>>> suggesting we force these chains to hire and train people how to tell
>>> who is and isn't qualified to buy fish? To teach them about the
>>> hundreds of fish being sold in the USA? There are two problems with
>>> that. One is who PAYS for this training, especially when we all know
>>> these employees will soon be gone? The other is how many people are
>>> going to want such training when so few are interested in fish? Most
>>> are college kids who take these jobs here in the USA, not someone
>>> looking to make a long-term commitment to such a low-paying position.
>
>> Canadian teenagers on minimum wage are not so different from their
>> American counterparts (or Britains or Australians). Previous
>> experience was a hiring requirement (I even hired some who didn't have
>> aquariums, but grew up with them, or kept Bettas). Then the training
>> began, on the job, during the job (no extra expense, unless you wanted
>> it accelerated). My experience is real, not imagined.
>
>> For something you have no power over, you aren't having any trouble
>> making excuses for them.
>
> ## What would you have me say? Just because I'm telling you why it is
> the way it is here doesn't mean I agree with the system. See above.
>
> I'm sorry but this is a bit of a sore spot
>> (armchair apathy). Speak to the manager, offer to do a bit of
>> training, apply for part-time employment. The retirees I hired were
>> not doing it for the money, and they weren't the fastest, but they had
>> knowledge, patience and could teach the new recruits. Privately, they
>> admited that the minimum wage salary made little difference after a
>> while. Work became part of their social life, 2 or 3 days a week,
>> putter around a fish-store, talk to fellow hobbyists and teach
>> something they loved to talk about.
>
> ## Hey,... how do you think I saw the things I saw and heard? It
> wasn't just hanging around my favorite shops although I did plenty of
> that in my day. After I retired I worked part time for awhile in a
> Shop that specialized in fish and birds (hookbills). Unfortunately
> they had a very bad location off the beaten path and went under after a
> year.
>
> Plus they would get deals on fish, plants and equipment,
>> could decorate lots of aquariums and could order all sorts of
>> interesting stuff. I'd highly recommend it for anyone getting into
>> the retirement years.
>
> ## I was thinking about applying for a part time position at one of
> the chains here. Retirement is nice but I do miss the social aspects
> of working.
>
>>> # I'm sure it is. We have no right as Americans to dictate to a
>>> store keeper who he hires or what they're taught......
>
>> Your rights are as a consumer, to cause businesses to flourish or go
>> bankrupt, according to how well they meet your needs. If your needs
>> are to have the cheapest possible products with an absence of service,
>> then continue to buy from them and make excuses. The moral problem
>> begins when living creatures are involved, and I think there are
>> countries which have been a little slow at catching up.
>
> ## And my country is one of them. I cannot locate anyone to complain to
> about the conditions I'm aware of at a large well known store's pet
> dept. The manager agrees, claims he'll have the "problems" taken care
> of and doesn't. What can a person do? It's frustrating and
> aggravating.... no one cares!!!
>
>> ps: every letter of complaint directed to our store was scrutinized at
>> head office, before being emailed to the store's manager (or hand
>> delivered by a district manager). The manager would then have to
>> respond directly to the customer's complaint and forward the
>> resolution to head office. If your LFS is full of dead fish, you can
>> email them a complaint in less time than it would take to read my
>> verbal diatribe.

>
> ## This may work with a Petco or Superpets but what about a Wal*Mart
> or privately owned store where the owner is oblivious?

With a privately owned store, it may not. Wal-Mart does respond to
complaints, but their staff training will likely never be sufficient to
responsibly sell live creatures. Their fish dept is imo, a lost leader,
it's only there to draw sales to food, tanks and accessories. I don't
consider Wal-Mart an LFS, most of them are more like fish-pimps.

I just hope you don't give up or come to accept the improper conditions
you see. The difference between an LFS doing a good job and those not
doing a good job is basically *care*. If the company cares, or the
employees care, then minimum wage makes no difference, training is done
because it can be done while they are working. If new hobbyists don't
care, it's because they don't see it. If experienced hobbyists don't
care and make excuses for them, then we are in trouble (imnsho ;~).
--
www.NetMax.tk ... really climbing off the soapbox now, thanks for putting
up with me Carol.

>>> # I'd still rather be HERE than any other country on earth. :-)))
>
>> lol, I think most of the world knows America's patriotism.
>
>> Canada has its share of crappy LFS too. Doesn't influence where I'd
>> like to live though, only where I'd like to visit (Georgia's Public
>> Aquarium is next on my agenda :o)
>
> ## Enjoy your visit there. ;-)
> --
>
> Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
> My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
> http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastadaisy
> ~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>
>
>
>
>

Gill Passman

December 2nd 05, 09:46 AM

Koi-lo wrote:
>
> "Gill Passman" > wrote in message
> .. .
>
>>
>> Cube and part boil some potatoes and then shallow fry them
>> Chop up some real thick gammon steak and fry it separately
>> Chop up some leeks and add them to the potatoe after around 5-10 mins
>> and fry them
>> Pour in the gammon plus the juice
>> Cube some cheese (I use cheddar)
>> Stir fry until the cheese has melted
>
> up trying to lose as much grease as possible....absolutely
>
>> divine...if you really want the health kick you could add a salad but
>> as we mainly eat a healthy diet once in a while I don't care...
>
>
> ## That sounds really fine - if a bit fattening! :-) I may try that
> recipe. I'm always looking for something new to try. I saw a recipe
> for "cheesy chicken" on another NG and it's now made regularly as my
> husband and I are crazy about it. It fits the low-carb menu we try and
> stick to.
>
>> Kids getting the pasta dish next time hubby is away on nights...
>
>
>> To get back on topic...I went to the LFS today and they have a big
>> sign of what they will and won't do or sell....I'll ask for a copy
>> next time I go, or sit with a pen and scribble it down....these values
>> are what every LFS should follow wherever they are....take them in to
>> your local store and have them deny it isn't right...in other words go
>> for it girl.....we can make a difference but if we sit quietly nothing
>> will change....BTW I do feel a little bit odd on the girl thing...I'm
>> sure you are not too much older than me but I'm equally sure you won't
>> take offence (or at least I hope not)
>
>
> ## I'll soon be 61 but don't look it, feel it or act it. :-) And I
> don't offend easily. I checked out a new pet shop in the nearest town
> today called PetSupermarket. They opened a few weeks ago. They don't
> specialize in fish but do carry a reasonable selection. Everything
> looked healthy, clean and well fed. Unfortunately they had no male
> bettas or clown loaches left. The 3 female bettas were in clean 16
> oz.containers. They're due a shipment in next week. They have a small
> selection of fancy goldfish that were of surprisingly good quality -
> needless to say I came home with a beautiful gold "bubble eye" or
> Celestial Goldfish. They also carry frozen foods so I picked up the
> mixed pack (contains blood worms, Brine shrimp etc) I was really after.
> The owners are two older women. The one was very knowledgeable where
> fish are concerned and told me she has many tanks in her house. Her and
> her husband have been fish addicts for years, she said. I got the
> impression the other lady, the more quiet, older one, was more into the
> cat and dog end. They'll definitely get my business again.
>
> I didn't mention I set up 2 more 10 gallon tanks in my dining room. I
> can watch the new GF from my desk here by the window. I still have 2
> more 10s and a 30gLong in storage outside. I moved 2 male bettas into
> square gallon cookie jars but that was all I could find. I did come up
> with two more 2 gallon tanks from my outbuilding but don't have the room
> to set them up until after the holidays.
>
> Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
> My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
> http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastadaisy
> ~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>
>
>
>

Bet your bettas will be thrilled to bits with their late Christmas
present....you'll need to update the photos on your site...

Until I had the bettas I never truly realised how expressive fish can be
of their "feelings". I bought Bob a fake hollow log yesterday - after a
few nudges he swam through it then came up to the front of the tank to
me - flared and did a little dance then straight back to playing with
his new toy :-) One happy betta I guess....

Gill

Dr Engelbert Buxbaum

December 2nd 05, 02:28 PM

Koi-lo wrote:

> I don't know if this still holds true but I read some statistics some years
> back that fully 80% of all tropical fish are dead within a few weeks of
> being sold. As I recall ignorance on the part of the owner and parasite
> infestation were the main causes. Neglect after the novelty wore off was
> also high on the list. There may be newer statistics out there now.
>
> I don't know if it applies to marine aquariums. It probably does.

Things are probably much worse with sea- than freshwater fishes. While
freshwater fishes are often bred in captivity, this is not possible with
most sea water fishes. Instead, those are taken from the wild, often by
cyanide fishing. This results in very high losses during capture and
transport, in addition the weakend fish easily die after delivery to the
customer. That sea water tanks are more complicated to maintain and less
forgiving than fresh water only adds to these losses.

Koi-lo

December 2nd 05, 04:41 PM

"Gill Passman" > wrote in message
.. .
> Koi-lo wrote:
I did come up
>> with two more 2 gallon tanks from my outbuilding but don't have the room
>> to set them up until after the holidays.
==================
> Bet your bettas will be thrilled to bits with their late Christmas
> present....you'll need to update the photos on your site...

$$ Yeah, that's another project for a long winter evening, updating my
website.

> Until I had the bettas I never truly realised how expressive fish can be
> of their "feelings". I bought Bob a fake hollow log yesterday - after a
> few nudges he swam through it then came up to the front of the tank to
> me - flared and did a little dance then straight back to playing with his
> new toy :-) One happy betta I guess....

$$ Sure sounds like it! :-) All my guys are doing is swimming back and
forth, back and forth watching me as I do my thing around the kitchen and
diningroom, hoping for another tasty "snack".... what little beggars they
are!
--

Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastadaisy
~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>

Koi-lo

December 2nd 05, 04:56 PM

"NetMax" > wrote in message
.. .
> "Koi-lo" > wrote in message
> ...
>> ## This may work with a Petco or Superpets but what about a Wal*Mart or
>> privately owned store where the owner is oblivious?
========
> With a privately owned store, it may not. Wal-Mart does respond to
> complaints, but their staff training will likely never be sufficient to
> responsibly sell live creatures. Their fish dept is imo, a lost leader,
> it's only there to draw sales to food, tanks and accessories. I don't
> consider Wal-Mart an LFS, most of them are more like fish-pimps.

## Happily, many of them here in TN no longer carry live creatures. They
just sell pet supplies. I wish all their stores would stop selling live
fish. I haven't seen birds in any of their stores in awhile.

> I just hope you don't give up or come to accept the improper conditions
> you see.

## I will never give up.

The difference between an LFS doing a good job and those not
> doing a good job is basically *care*. If the company cares, or the
> employees care, then minimum wage makes no difference, training is done
> because it can be done while they are working.

## Wages aside, actually they get little training here other than to
*always* be polite to the customers, sell them as much in the way of
supplies as you can, dress neatly, etc. Here we have the blind leading the
blind when you have one disinterested teenager teaching another
disinterested teenager. I see this over and over in the pet stores I've
frequented. Or sometimes the kid is interested and believes him/herself to
be a pro because they have a 10 gallon tank of guppies at home. What I'm
saying is to make these jobs "serious jobs" with serious training and a
living wage with benefits. One large privately owned store in Nashville
does this and the employees stay there for years! I wish this store was
closer.

If new hobbyists don't
> care, it's because they don't see it. If experienced hobbyists don't care
> and make excuses for them, then we are in trouble (imnsho ;~).

## This is true.
--

Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastadaisy
~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>

Koi-lo

December 2nd 05, 08:26 PM

"Dr Engelbert Buxbaum" > wrote in message
...
> Koi-lo wrote:
>
>> I don't know if this still holds true but I read some statistics some
>> years
>> back that fully 80% of all tropical fish are dead within a few weeks of
>> being sold. As I recall ignorance on the part of the owner and parasite
>> infestation were the main causes. Neglect after the novelty wore off was
>> also high on the list. There may be newer statistics out there now.
>>
>> I don't know if it applies to marine aquariums. It probably does.
===================
> Things are probably much worse with sea- than freshwater fishes. While
> freshwater fishes are often bred in captivity, this is not possible with
> most sea water fishes. Instead, those are taken from the wild, often by
> cyanide fishing.

$$ Yes, I read about this some years ago in TFH magazine. :-( I think
harvesting these fish for the pet trade should be stopped. The reefs are
being damaged and these fish are surely doomed. But it appears $$$ wins out
and the practice will continue until the reefs are picked clean.

This results in very high losses during capture and
> transport, in addition the weakend fish easily die after delivery to the
> customer. That sea water tanks are more complicated to maintain and less
> forgiving than fresh water only adds to these losses.

$$ That is so sad....... :*(
--

Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastadaisy
~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>

Koi-lo

December 2nd 05, 10:02 PM

To his credit the manager over the pet dept. in a huge nationwide store
allowed me to show the new teenager how to do water changes on the "cups"
all their bettas were in. These cups were like cesspools.

When I left the young man was doing fine and never owned a fish in his life.
:-)
--
Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastadaisy
~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>

Dr Engelbert Buxbaum

December 5th 05, 02:30 PM

Koi-lo wrote:

> ## And my country is one of them. I cannot locate anyone to complain to
> about the conditions I'm aware of at a large well known store's pet dept.
> The manager agrees, claims he'll have the "problems" taken care of and
> doesn't. What can a person do? It's frustrating and aggravating.... no
> one cares!!!

I can not say anything about the legal system in the US, as my stay over
there was too short. But here in Germany (and IIRC in England as well)
there are animal protection laws that make it a felony to cause
unnecessary harm to a vertebrate. The ministery of Agriculture and
Forestry (which is responsible for animal welfare) has detailed
guidelines on its web pages for the life fish trade. If those standarts
are obviously not met, a complaint to the local Trading Standards Office
or the police would result in promt action. Notification of animal
welfare organisations would result in picket lines outside the shop. I
can not believe that there is any civilised country were this would be
substantially different.

Dr Engelbert Buxbaum

December 5th 05, 02:31 PM

Koi-lo wrote:

> Are you suggesting we force these
> chains to hire and train people how to tell who is and isn't qualified to
> buy fish? To teach them about the hundreds of fish being sold in the USA?
> There are two problems with that. One is who PAYS for this training,
> especially when we all know these employees will soon be gone? The other is
> how many people are going to want such training when so few are interested
> in fish? Most are college kids who take these jobs here in the USA, not
> someone looking to make a long-term commitment to such a low-paying
> position.

There seems to be a different attitude toward staff in the US as
compared to, say, Europe and may be Japan as well. Here we train our
"human resources" as best we can, pay them well and hold onto them even
if buisiness is slack. In return we have a reliable, well trained work
force providing quality service. In the US, people get hired when
buisiness is good and fired again when it isn't, with one week notice.
No training, as that would increase cost. The result is well sumarised
by the saying: You get what you pay for.

One of the reasons for the success of Airbus over Boing is product
quality as a result of well trained staff. I recall reading a paper once
describing how Lufthansa would send their own engineers over to Boing to
supervise construction of their new planes, then fly them home empty,
take them appart and rebuild them, just to make sure they wouldn't fall
appart in mid-air.

Unfortunately, the short-term, "shareholder value" oriented approach is
gaining ground here too. As if the shareholders interest were not better
served by a company growing steadily in the long term.

Dr Engelbert Buxbaum

December 5th 05, 02:31 PM

NetMax wrote:

> Their ref# 51539 (60 cm is a 24" tank) led here:
> http://www.bml.de/index-272804D294E247F1BEF4F4F9D9C2BC4C.html
> but it requires some German fluency to do a proper search, and that's not
> a language I know.

If you need specific info, email me and I check it up for you.

Koi-lo

December 5th 05, 04:54 PM

"Dr Engelbert Buxbaum" > wrote in message
...
> Koi-lo wrote:
>
>
>> ## And my country is one of them. I cannot locate anyone to complain to
>> about the conditions I'm aware of at a large well known store's pet dept.
>> The manager agrees, claims he'll have the "problems" taken care of and
>> doesn't. What can a person do? It's frustrating and aggravating.... no
>> one cares!!!
-------------
> I can not say anything about the legal system in the US, as my stay over
> there was too short. But here in Germany (and IIRC in England as well)
> there are animal protection laws that make it a felony to cause
> unnecessary harm to a vertebrate.

# We have such laws that cover livestock, dogs, cats and such but nothing
where fish are concerned. I did find another manager at the same store and
he allowed me to show the young man (who admitted he knew nothing about
fish) how to clean up the betta cups etc. The boy saw they were in bad
shape but was clueless as to what to do..... multiply this situation by
thousands of stores here in the USA. :-(

The ministery of Agriculture and
> Forestry (which is responsible for animal welfare) has detailed
> guidelines on its web pages for the life fish trade. If those standarts
> are obviously not met, a complaint to the local Trading Standards Office
> or the police would result in promt action. Notification of animal
> welfare organisations would result in picket lines outside the shop. I
> can not believe that there is any civilised country were this would be
> substantially different.

# It's hard to believe alright, but here in the USA the stores can abuse
and neglect fish until they die - no one can do anything about it. Animal
rights groups are for the most part seen as kooks and ignored by the general
public. That is unless they resort to something truly outrageous such as
throwing blood on someone wearing furs.......
--

Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastadaisy
~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>

Koi-lo

December 5th 05, 04:58 PM

"Dr Engelbert Buxbaum" > wrote in message
...
> Koi-lo wrote:
>
>> Are you suggesting we force these
>> chains to hire and train people how to tell who is and isn't qualified to
>> buy fish? To teach them about the hundreds of fish being sold in the
>> USA?
>> There are two problems with that. One is who PAYS for this training,
>> especially when we all know these employees will soon be gone? The other
>> is
>> how many people are going to want such training when so few are
>> interested
>> in fish? Most are college kids who take these jobs here in the USA, not
>> someone looking to make a long-term commitment to such a low-paying
>> position.
-----------
> There seems to be a different attitude toward staff in the US as
> compared to, say, Europe and may be Japan as well. Here we train our
> "human resources" as best we can, pay them well and hold onto them even
> if buisiness is slack. In return we have a reliable, well trained work
> force providing quality service. In the US, people get hired when
> buisiness is good and fired again when it isn't, with one week notice.
> No training, as that would increase cost. The result is well sumarised
> by the saying: You get what you pay for.

## EXACTLY!!!! These people are seen as expendable as there is a never
ending supply of college kids looking for a temporary job. Few places will
waste time training them because they know the low-wages will soon drive
them away. They seem to be entry level jobs. As the young person gains
working experience they move on to something that pays better and has better
hours. Once out of school they're gone. The turn-over in the shops where I
live is unbelievable. You seldom see the same face twice.

> One of the reasons for the success of Airbus over Boing is product
> quality as a result of well trained staff. I recall reading a paper once
> describing how Lufthansa would send their own engineers over to Boing to
> supervise construction of their new planes, then fly them home empty,
> take them appart and rebuild them, just to make sure they wouldn't fall
> appart in mid-air.
>
> Unfortunately, the short-term, "shareholder value" oriented approach is
> gaining ground here too. As if the shareholders interest were not better
> served by a company growing steadily in the long term.
--

Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastadaisy
~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>