Quarantining Clown Loaches

[Gill Passman]

Hi All you Clown Loach people,

I have a dilemma as to whether Clown Loaches should be quarantined or
not....here are my reasons:-

Case 1. 4 Clown Loaches introduced into a community tank with no disease
or apparent problems. One died of a parasite at least 8 weeks after
going in the tank - this would not be picked up on a routine quarantine
excercise and affected no other fish.

Case 2. 2 healthy Clown Loaches added to the three that remained above.
No sign of any disease. Around 6 weeks into having these fish I had an
Ich outbreak down to a stress related situation (alpha male trapped in a
log by a Plec). Again this would have not been picked up on a routine
quarantine - no water from the store was mixed. All fish recovered after
quite a long haul

Case 3. 3 seemingly healthy Clown Loaches added to a QT tank with just
some Neons for company. The Clowns never gained any confidence, hid all
the time, contracted ich and died

Case 4. 3 seemingly healthy Clown Loaches put straight into the
Community Tank with no QT. Perfectly happy and confident from day
one...no sign of any disease....fed from hand

Case 5. 2 seemingly healthy clown loaches (from an untested supplier)
put straight into the Community Tank with no QT. Perfectly happy and
confident - got on great with the three above. After a few days became
apparent that they had introduced Ich into the tank and all 5 went down
with it. Became apparent that it wasn't only Ich but velvet (after
around 4 weeks) - 3 dead and 2 missing presumed dead....the odd other
fish also dead but might be down to the length of time medicating the
clowns (which I think is more likely) - every other fish in the tank healthy

So from the evidence from my experience it is better not to QT
clowns...but then there is the risk that buying from an unknown source
can wipe out the clown population. So do you quarantine? This wiped out
Clowns quicker than anything else I tried. Do you risk it? My experience
was that the velvet happened well after any QT period and the Ich should
have been treatable....as was another of my experiences...I think the
prolonged meds is what killed the Neons/guppies not any disease. I have
treated the tank for Velvet just in case but there is no sign whatsoever...

so what is the best option....QT them and have them die from Ich because
they are stressed? or put them straight into the tank with a lot of
activity to give them confidence (and I think I'm inclined to treat
immediately for Ich just in case as one LFS suggests)...IMO the clowns
will do better straight into the tank...but it does put the other fish
at limited risk or at the very least subject them to medication.

So far I've decided any troupe of Clowns goes in at the same time with
no more added (so I don't infect the ones that I have). I probably still
veer towards the no QT because any stress has caused a deadly Ich
outbreak....putting them into the community tank might have resulted in
Ich once but no impact on my other fish. I just want to know what
everyone else thinks/does
TIA
Gill

[Steve]

Gill Passman wrote:
> Hi All you Clown Loach people,
>
> I have a dilemma as to whether Clown Loaches should be quarantined or
> not....here are my reasons:-
>
> Case 1. 4 Clown Loaches introduced into a community tank with no disease
> or apparent problems. One died of a parasite at least 8 weeks after
> going in the tank - this would not be picked up on a routine quarantine
> excercise and affected no other fish.
>
> Case 2. 2 healthy Clown Loaches added to the three that remained above.
> No sign of any disease. Around 6 weeks into having these fish I had an
> Ich outbreak down to a stress related situation (alpha male trapped in a
> log by a Plec). Again this would have not been picked up on a routine
> quarantine - no water from the store was mixed. All fish recovered after
> quite a long haul
>
> Case 3. 3 seemingly healthy Clown Loaches added to a QT tank with just
> some Neons for company. The Clowns never gained any confidence, hid all
> the time, contracted ich and died
>
> Case 4. 3 seemingly healthy Clown Loaches put straight into the
> Community Tank with no QT. Perfectly happy and confident from day
> one...no sign of any disease....fed from hand
>
> Case 5. 2 seemingly healthy clown loaches (from an untested supplier)
> put straight into the Community Tank with no QT. Perfectly happy and
> confident - got on great with the three above. After a few days became
> apparent that they had introduced Ich into the tank and all 5 went down
> with it. Became apparent that it wasn't only Ich but velvet (after
> around 4 weeks) - 3 dead and 2 missing presumed dead....the odd other
> fish also dead but might be down to the length of time medicating the
> clowns (which I think is more likely) - every other fish in the tank
> healthy
>
> So from the evidence from my experience it is better not to QT
> clowns...but then there is the risk that buying from an unknown source
> can wipe out the clown population. So do you quarantine? This wiped out
> Clowns quicker than anything else I tried. Do you risk it? My experience
> was that the velvet happened well after any QT period and the Ich should
> have been treatable....as was another of my experiences...I think the
> prolonged meds is what killed the Neons/guppies not any disease. I have
> treated the tank for Velvet just in case but there is no sign whatsoever...
>
> so what is the best option....QT them and have them die from Ich because
> they are stressed? or put them straight into the tank with a lot of
> activity to give them confidence (and I think I'm inclined to treat
> immediately for Ich just in case as one LFS suggests)...IMO the clowns
> will do better straight into the tank...but it does put the other fish
> at limited risk or at the very least subject them to medication.
>
> So far I've decided any troupe of Clowns goes in at the same time with
> no more added (so I don't infect the ones that I have). I probably still
> veer towards the no QT because any stress has caused a deadly Ich
> outbreak....putting them into the community tank might have resulted in
> Ich once but no impact on my other fish. I just want to know what
> everyone else thinks/does
> TIA
> Gill

I vote for putting the loaches straight into the community aquarium.

I've only purchased clown loaches once, 14.5 years ago. The community
aquarium was still quite new and my 3 new, young clown loaches got ich
within a week. Some green formalin medicine, heat and water changes got
them over their illness, and they've been solidly healthy ever since.
The darn things seem practically immortal.

Actually, some tankmates got ich at that time as the new loaches. It may
have had more to do with a new aquarium than anything else.

Steve

[Dr.]

"Gill Passman" > wrote in message
.. .
> Hi All you Clown Loach people,
>
> I have a dilemma as to whether Clown Loaches should be quarantined or
> not....here are my reasons:-

Q/T with 3 week heat treatment of 90F in a clean, well aeriated, and
established tank. That's what I'd do. Keep it cycled with bettas, and jar
them when you need the tank for Q/T purposes. CL can handle 90F easily. Take
a 4th week to get the temp down to the temp of the tank you're putting them
in. No need for ICH medication this way, and it deals with the problem much
more quickly. 3 weeks is likely not necessary, but removes any doubt
whatsoever. If they still get ICH, then they get it from your main tank
after you introduce them. Not from the LFS.

Heat treated my Clown Loaches for ICH twice, with no casualties.

Gary

[NetMax]

"Gill Passman" > wrote in message
.. .
> Hi All you Clown Loach people,
>
> I have a dilemma as to whether Clown Loaches should be quarantined or
> not....here are my reasons:-
>
> Case 1. 4 Clown Loaches introduced into a community tank with no
> disease or apparent problems. One died of a parasite at least 8 weeks
> after going in the tank - this would not be picked up on a routine
> quarantine excercise and affected no other fish.
>
> Case 2. 2 healthy Clown Loaches added to the three that remained above.
> No sign of any disease. Around 6 weeks into having these fish I had an
> Ich outbreak down to a stress related situation (alpha male trapped in
> a log by a Plec). Again this would have not been picked up on a
> routine quarantine - no water from the store was mixed. All fish
> recovered after quite a long haul
>
> Case 3. 3 seemingly healthy Clown Loaches added to a QT tank with just
> some Neons for company. The Clowns never gained any confidence, hid all
> the time, contracted ich and died
>
> Case 4. 3 seemingly healthy Clown Loaches put straight into the
> Community Tank with no QT. Perfectly happy and confident from day
> one...no sign of any disease....fed from hand
>
> Case 5. 2 seemingly healthy clown loaches (from an untested supplier)
> put straight into the Community Tank with no QT. Perfectly happy and
> confident - got on great with the three above. After a few days became
> apparent that they had introduced Ich into the tank and all 5 went down
> with it. Became apparent that it wasn't only Ich but velvet (after
> around 4 weeks) - 3 dead and 2 missing presumed dead....the odd other
> fish also dead but might be down to the length of time medicating the
> clowns (which I think is more likely) - every other fish in the tank
> healthy
>
> So from the evidence from my experience it is better not to QT
> clowns...but then there is the risk that buying from an unknown source
> can wipe out the clown population. So do you quarantine? This wiped out
> Clowns quicker than anything else I tried. Do you risk it? My
> experience was that the velvet happened well after any QT period and
> the Ich should have been treatable....as was another of my
> experiences...I think the prolonged meds is what killed the
> Neons/guppies not any disease. I have treated the tank for Velvet just
> in case but there is no sign whatsoever...
>
> so what is the best option....QT them and have them die from Ich
> because they are stressed? or put them straight into the tank with a
> lot of activity to give them confidence (and I think I'm inclined to
> treat immediately for Ich just in case as one LFS suggests)...IMO the
> clowns will do better straight into the tank...but it does put the
> other fish at limited risk or at the very least subject them to
> medication.
>
> So far I've decided any troupe of Clowns goes in at the same time with
> no more added (so I don't infect the ones that I have). I probably
> still veer towards the no QT because any stress has caused a deadly Ich
> outbreak....putting them into the community tank might have resulted in
> Ich once but no impact on my other fish. I just want to know what
> everyone else thinks/does
> TIA
> Gill


It sounds like you need a better quarantine tank. For loaches, my
quarantine tank is filled with leaf litter (enough to let them burrow in)
and has no lights. You can leave them in there for a month. Heat
treatment is also a popular technique, as meds and CLs are such a poor
mix. They also need to be fed regularly (3 times) as Q tanks are quite
sterile (duh ;~), so they have nothing to snack on between meals. High
protein meals seem to work best, from my limited experience. Bloodworms
(Hikari), Beefheart, shrimp etc. hth

ps: noticed talk about US CLs being healthier. In Canada (again my
limited experience), all CLs come from Singapore (or that region), in
very uniform size (makes me suspect they are farm bred or they have a
very good size selection method). Quality varies by batch and the time
of the year (extremely seasonal).
--
www.NetMax.tk

[Koi-lo]

"Gill Passman" > wrote in message
.. .
> Hi All you Clown Loach people,
>
> I have a dilemma as to whether Clown Loaches should be quarantined or
> not....here are my reasons:-
==========================
I'm a firm believer of quarantining ALL new fish. You can make your CLs
comfortable in the quarantine tank by providing them with plants and places
to hide. It's too chancy to place new fish in an established community
tank.
--
Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastadaisy
~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>

[Ali Day]

"Gill Passman" > wrote in message
.. .

how friendly are you with your LFS, when I've bought bigger more expensive
fish, I've booked them and they've kept them for a couple for weeks, and I
can keep an eye on them but not in my tank, and because I know they get
deliveries every friday, I check on thursday's to make sure they are still
OK. Maybe check to see if you can reserve your fish? And then go for the
staright in the tank.

[Gill Passman]

NetMax wrote:
> "Gill Passman" > wrote in message
> .. .
>
>>Hi All you Clown Loach people,
>>
>>I have a dilemma as to whether Clown Loaches should be quarantined or
>>not....here are my reasons:-
>>
>>Case 1. 4 Clown Loaches introduced into a community tank with no
>>disease or apparent problems. One died of a parasite at least 8 weeks
>>after going in the tank - this would not be picked up on a routine
>>quarantine excercise and affected no other fish.
>>
>>Case 2. 2 healthy Clown Loaches added to the three that remained above.
>>No sign of any disease. Around 6 weeks into having these fish I had an
>>Ich outbreak down to a stress related situation (alpha male trapped in
>>a log by a Plec). Again this would have not been picked up on a
>>routine quarantine - no water from the store was mixed. All fish
>>recovered after quite a long haul
>>
>>Case 3. 3 seemingly healthy Clown Loaches added to a QT tank with just
>>some Neons for company. The Clowns never gained any confidence, hid all
>>the time, contracted ich and died
>>
>>Case 4. 3 seemingly healthy Clown Loaches put straight into the
>>Community Tank with no QT. Perfectly happy and confident from day
>>one...no sign of any disease....fed from hand
>>
>>Case 5. 2 seemingly healthy clown loaches (from an untested supplier)
>>put straight into the Community Tank with no QT. Perfectly happy and
>>confident - got on great with the three above. After a few days became
>>apparent that they had introduced Ich into the tank and all 5 went down
>>with it. Became apparent that it wasn't only Ich but velvet (after
>>around 4 weeks) - 3 dead and 2 missing presumed dead....the odd other
>>fish also dead but might be down to the length of time medicating the
>>clowns (which I think is more likely) - every other fish in the tank
>>healthy
>>
>>So from the evidence from my experience it is better not to QT
>>clowns...but then there is the risk that buying from an unknown source
>>can wipe out the clown population. So do you quarantine? This wiped out
>>Clowns quicker than anything else I tried. Do you risk it? My
>>experience was that the velvet happened well after any QT period and
>>the Ich should have been treatable....as was another of my
>>experiences...I think the prolonged meds is what killed the
>>Neons/guppies not any disease. I have treated the tank for Velvet just
>>in case but there is no sign whatsoever...
>>
>>so what is the best option....QT them and have them die from Ich
>>because they are stressed? or put them straight into the tank with a
>>lot of activity to give them confidence (and I think I'm inclined to
>>treat immediately for Ich just in case as one LFS suggests)...IMO the
>>clowns will do better straight into the tank...but it does put the
>>other fish at limited risk or at the very least subject them to
>>medication.
>>
>>So far I've decided any troupe of Clowns goes in at the same time with
>>no more added (so I don't infect the ones that I have). I probably
>>still veer towards the no QT because any stress has caused a deadly Ich
>>outbreak....putting them into the community tank might have resulted in
>>Ich once but no impact on my other fish. I just want to know what
>>everyone else thinks/does
>>TIA
>>Gill
>
>
>
> It sounds like you need a better quarantine tank. For loaches, my
> quarantine tank is filled with leaf litter (enough to let them burrow in)
> and has no lights. You can leave them in there for a month. Heat
> treatment is also a popular technique, as meds and CLs are such a poor
> mix. They also need to be fed regularly (3 times) as Q tanks are quite
> sterile (duh ;~), so they have nothing to snack on between meals. High
> protein meals seem to work best, from my limited experience. Bloodworms
> (Hikari), Beefheart, shrimp etc. hth
>
> ps: noticed talk about US CLs being healthier. In Canada (again my
> limited experience), all CLs come from Singapore (or that region), in
> very uniform size (makes me suspect they are farm bred or they have a
> very good size selection method). Quality varies by batch and the time
> of the year (extremely seasonal).

The tank that I used to QT the Clowns was a 15 gall - had driftwood,
plants and gravel. It was cycled using media from another tank - it had
been thoroughly cleaned and left running for a week or so before adding
any fish - additionally I was seeding it every other day just to be on
the safe side (along with doing daily water tests). I tried feeding a
mix of food including frozen bloodworms, brine shrimp, daphnia but they
wouldn't touch anything. I even tried live bloodworms but no go. When I
discussed with the LFS that sold me them his theory was that there were
insufficient established fish to give the Clowns the security that they
needed - which to me seems to say don't quarantine.

What size tank would you suggest might be sufficient to QT Clowns in?
The 15 gall is now a kitchen community tank...5 galls are easy to
squeeze in (but I'm not sure that would be big enough)...might get away
with something around 10-15 galls if it never gets turned into anything
else...

Thanks
Gill

PS Interesting about the uniform size - one place I go to they are all
pretty much identical in size (the ones that I tried to QT). The other
place gets a mix of sizes but they are the ones that told me that they
were farm bred.

[NetMax]

"Gill Passman" > wrote in message
.. .
> NetMax wrote:
>> "Gill Passman" > wrote in message
>> .. .
>>
>>>Hi All you Clown Loach people,
>>>
>>>I have a dilemma as to whether Clown Loaches should be quarantined or
>>>not....here are my reasons:-
>>>
>>>Case 1. 4 Clown Loaches introduced into a community tank with no
>>>disease or apparent problems. One died of a parasite at least 8 weeks
>>>after going in the tank - this would not be picked up on a routine
>>>quarantine excercise and affected no other fish.
>>>
>>>Case 2. 2 healthy Clown Loaches added to the three that remained
>>>above. No sign of any disease. Around 6 weeks into having these fish I
>>>had an Ich outbreak down to a stress related situation (alpha male
>>>trapped in a log by a Plec). Again this would have not been picked up
>>>on a routine quarantine - no water from the store was mixed. All fish
>>>recovered after quite a long haul
>>>
>>>Case 3. 3 seemingly healthy Clown Loaches added to a QT tank with just
>>>some Neons for company. The Clowns never gained any confidence, hid
>>>all the time, contracted ich and died
>>>
>>>Case 4. 3 seemingly healthy Clown Loaches put straight into the
>>>Community Tank with no QT. Perfectly happy and confident from day
>>>one...no sign of any disease....fed from hand
>>>
>>>Case 5. 2 seemingly healthy clown loaches (from an untested supplier)
>>>put straight into the Community Tank with no QT. Perfectly happy and
>>>confident - got on great with the three above. After a few days became
>>>apparent that they had introduced Ich into the tank and all 5 went
>>>down with it. Became apparent that it wasn't only Ich but velvet
>>>(after around 4 weeks) - 3 dead and 2 missing presumed dead....the odd
>>>other fish also dead but might be down to the length of time
>>>medicating the clowns (which I think is more likely) - every other
>>>fish in the tank healthy
>>>
>>>So from the evidence from my experience it is better not to QT
>>>clowns...but then there is the risk that buying from an unknown source
>>>can wipe out the clown population. So do you quarantine? This wiped
>>>out Clowns quicker than anything else I tried. Do you risk it? My
>>>experience was that the velvet happened well after any QT period and
>>>the Ich should have been treatable....as was another of my
>>>experiences...I think the prolonged meds is what killed the
>>>Neons/guppies not any disease. I have treated the tank for Velvet just
>>>in case but there is no sign whatsoever...
>>>
>>>so what is the best option....QT them and have them die from Ich
>>>because they are stressed? or put them straight into the tank with a
>>>lot of activity to give them confidence (and I think I'm inclined to
>>>treat immediately for Ich just in case as one LFS suggests)...IMO the
>>>clowns will do better straight into the tank...but it does put the
>>>other fish at limited risk or at the very least subject them to
>>>medication.
>>>
>>>So far I've decided any troupe of Clowns goes in at the same time with
>>>no more added (so I don't infect the ones that I have). I probably
>>>still veer towards the no QT because any stress has caused a deadly
>>>Ich outbreak....putting them into the community tank might have
>>>resulted in Ich once but no impact on my other fish. I just want to
>>>know what everyone else thinks/does
>>>TIA
>>>Gill
>>
>>
>>
>> It sounds like you need a better quarantine tank. For loaches, my
>> quarantine tank is filled with leaf litter (enough to let them burrow
>> in) and has no lights. You can leave them in there for a month. Heat
>> treatment is also a popular technique, as meds and CLs are such a poor
>> mix. They also need to be fed regularly (3 times) as Q tanks are
>> quite sterile (duh ;~), so they have nothing to snack on between
>> meals. High protein meals seem to work best, from my limited
>> experience. Bloodworms (Hikari), Beefheart, shrimp etc. hth
>>
>> ps: noticed talk about US CLs being healthier. In Canada (again my
>> limited experience), all CLs come from Singapore (or that region), in
>> very uniform size (makes me suspect they are farm bred or they have a
>> very good size selection method). Quality varies by batch and the
>> time of the year (extremely seasonal).
>
> The tank that I used to QT the Clowns was a 15 gall - had driftwood,
> plants and gravel. It was cycled using media from another tank - it had
> been thoroughly cleaned and left running for a week or so before adding
> any fish - additionally I was seeding it every other day just to be on
> the safe side (along with doing daily water tests). I tried feeding a
> mix of food including frozen bloodworms, brine shrimp, daphnia but they
> wouldn't touch anything. I even tried live bloodworms but no go. When I
> discussed with the LFS that sold me them his theory was that there were
> insufficient established fish to give the Clowns the security that they
> needed - which to me seems to say don't quarantine.
>
> What size tank would you suggest might be sufficient to QT Clowns in?
> The 15 gall is now a kitchen community tank...5 galls are easy to
> squeeze in (but I'm not sure that would be big enough)...might get away
> with something around 10-15 galls if it never gets turned into anything
> else...
>
> Thanks
> Gill
>
> PS Interesting about the uniform size - one place I go to they are all
> pretty much identical in size (the ones that I tried to QT). The other
> place gets a mix of sizes but they are the ones that told me that they
> were farm bred.

Your Q-tank sounds ok. It's an important point about having ditherfish.
I've used this with more timid fish, but it's equally valid with many
fish which live in the bottom layers. A few WCMs or danios should do the
trick.

Another consideration, and here I'm not on firm scientific ground, but
the old aquarium books would often make reference to certain fish
requiring aged water. It might not really be that the water be old, but
that the water has divested itself of the various gases & chemicals which
are more & more commonly found. Prepare your Q-tank a week ahead with
good circulation using lots of fresh high quality carbon. Just ideas,
but the old books have a lot of wisdom, derived from observation and
empirical testing.
--
www.NetMax.tk

[Justice]

Gill Passman wrote:
> Hi All you Clown Loach people,
>
> I have a dilemma as to whether Clown Loaches should be quarantined or
> not....here are my reasons:-
>
> Case 1. 4 Clown Loaches introduced into a community tank with no disease
> or apparent problems. One died of a parasite at least 8 weeks after
> going in the tank - this would not be picked up on a routine quarantine
> excercise and affected no other fish.
>
> Case 2. 2 healthy Clown Loaches added to the three that remained above.
> No sign of any disease. Around 6 weeks into having these fish I had an
> Ich outbreak down to a stress related situation (alpha male trapped in a
> log by a Plec). Again this would have not been picked up on a routine
> quarantine - no water from the store was mixed. All fish recovered after
> quite a long haul
>
> Case 3. 3 seemingly healthy Clown Loaches added to a QT tank with just
> some Neons for company. The Clowns never gained any confidence, hid all
> the time, contracted ich and died
>
> Case 4. 3 seemingly healthy Clown Loaches put straight into the
> Community Tank with no QT. Perfectly happy and confident from day
> one...no sign of any disease....fed from hand
>
> Case 5. 2 seemingly healthy clown loaches (from an untested supplier)
> put straight into the Community Tank with no QT. Perfectly happy and
> confident - got on great with the three above. After a few days became
> apparent that they had introduced Ich into the tank and all 5 went down
> with it. Became apparent that it wasn't only Ich but velvet (after
> around 4 weeks) - 3 dead and 2 missing presumed dead....the odd other
> fish also dead but might be down to the length of time medicating the
> clowns (which I think is more likely) - every other fish in the tank
> healthy
>
> So from the evidence from my experience it is better not to QT
> clowns...but then there is the risk that buying from an unknown source
> can wipe out the clown population. So do you quarantine? This wiped out
> Clowns quicker than anything else I tried. Do you risk it? My experience
> was that the velvet happened well after any QT period and the Ich should
> have been treatable....as was another of my experiences...I think the
> prolonged meds is what killed the Neons/guppies not any disease. I have
> treated the tank for Velvet just in case but there is no sign whatsoever...
>
> so what is the best option....QT them and have them die from Ich because
> they are stressed? or put them straight into the tank with a lot of
> activity to give them confidence (and I think I'm inclined to treat
> immediately for Ich just in case as one LFS suggests)...IMO the clowns
> will do better straight into the tank...but it does put the other fish
> at limited risk or at the very least subject them to medication.
>
> So far I've decided any troupe of Clowns goes in at the same time with
> no more added (so I don't infect the ones that I have). I probably still
> veer towards the no QT because any stress has caused a deadly Ich
> outbreak....putting them into the community tank might have resulted in
> Ich once but no impact on my other fish. I just want to know what
> everyone else thinks/does
> TIA
> Gill
My 2 cl loaches I just stuck in my tank. they did get ich, but turned up
at and medicated. after 2 weks they were healthy. They are still quite
shy still. they are curious about me but when ever my room mate walks by
the hide. same treatement with my yoyo's. only diffrece is hey don't
care who or what is going on they just look for food and eat, the fat
glutons :)

[Dr Engelbert Buxbaum]

Gill Passman wrote:

> I have a dilemma as to whether Clown Loaches should be quarantined or
> not....here are my reasons:-

Ideal is to add all inhabitants of a tank in one go (after fishless
cycling of course). For the first 10 days I feed medicated food
(containing tetracyclin) to reduce the risk of opportunistic infections.
This way losses are usually less than 10%. Medicated food also helps if
fishes need to be added to an established tank.

Especially with clowns quarantaining them in small groups like 2 animals
after all the stress of transport between breeder, wholesaler and LFS
seems like a recipe for disaster.

[Koi-lo]

"Dr Engelbert Buxbaum" > wrote in message
...
..
>
> Especially with clowns quarantaining them in small groups like 2 animals
> after all the stress of transport between breeder, wholesaler and LFS
> seems like a recipe for disaster.
=================
Think of the disaster of adding them to an established tank and they carry
some parasite or disease. A few dither fish can be left in a quarantine
tank to ease newcomers stress. I used cull guppies.
--
Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastadaisy
~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>

[Gill Passman]

Koi-lo wrote:
>
> "Dr Engelbert Buxbaum" > wrote in message
> ...
> .
>
>>
>> Especially with clowns quarantaining them in small groups like 2 animals
>> after all the stress of transport between breeder, wholesaler and LFS
>> seems like a recipe for disaster.
>
> =================
> Think of the disaster of adding them to an established tank and they
> carry some parasite or disease. A few dither fish can be left in a
> quarantine tank to ease newcomers stress. I used cull guppies.

Now it all depends on how you look on Ich....a lot of people say that it
is brought on by stress and present on all new bought fish for a long,
long time...it is the stress that results in the outbreak. Some people
say it is in all tank water but having looked at the science behind this
I would disagree. Maybe it is in the gills or hidden in all of my fish
and just doesn't result in an outbreak until the stress conditions occur.

Having read the responses I can see that putting a Clown in QT might
beat an initial outbreak (or not as I've seen - 3 died) without
infecting the other fish...but IME it is only the Clowns that get
it....putting a Clown into QT will stress it and almost ensure that it
gets ich....moving a clown loach however clear it might have been in the
QT tank will stress it and almost certainly cause ich...so maybe the
option is to cut your losses and realise that treatment will be
necessary whatever you do....Ich if treated quickly should not kill any
fish....

Apart from ich and velvet (and one that had a parasite that did not
infect any others) I've never come across anything worse....none of my
existing fish have ever succumbed to these....if I need to use dither
fish in my mind that is the same as putting them in the main tank....I
don't/can't bring myself to buy fish as sacrifices to others....once I
buy a fish, however humble or cheap, it becomes my responsibility and I
get involved in it's care....however cheap a fish is it is a living
creature that deserves the best I can give it - to me it is not a case
of pounds or dollars...it can't be used as an expendable resource to
test out the health of a more expensive fish....this is just against my
principles....

So if Clowns can't be quarantined without other fish (which I'm starting
to believe is the case) either I don't buy any more clowns (my
favourites) or I put them straight in the tank and treat accordingly....

Totally lost
Gill

[Koi-lo]

"Gill Passman" > wrote in message
.. .
> Koi-lo wrote:
>>
>> "Dr Engelbert Buxbaum" > wrote in message
>> ...
>> .
>>
>>>
>>> Especially with clowns quarantaining them in small groups like 2 animals
>>> after all the stress of transport between breeder, wholesaler and LFS
>>> seems like a recipe for disaster.
>>
>> =================
>> Think of the disaster of adding them to an established tank and they
>> carry some parasite or disease. A few dither fish can be left in a
>> quarantine tank to ease newcomers stress. I used cull guppies.
===========
> Now it all depends on how you look on Ich....a lot of people say that it
> is brought on by stress and present on all new bought fish for a long,
> long time...it is the stress that results in the outbreak. Some people say
> it is in all tank water but having looked at the science behind this I
> would disagree.

** I also disagree. Plus ICK isn't the only parasite that can wipe out a
tank. Gill flukes took out many fish about 5 years ago. I stopped buying
fish for 6 months - every store seemed to get their fish from the same
"infected" wholesalers. There are some things worse than ICK. Also I don't
believe it's stress that brings it on. I just purchased 12 fancy goldfish
and not one came down with ICK, nor did my MM platties last summer.

Maybe it is in the gills or hidden in all of my fish
> and just doesn't result in an outbreak until the stress conditions occur.

** This is possible or what about a Typhoid Mary? I had one and we never
figured out which fish it was. Every spring one pool was infected with a
tiny parasite I was never able to identify under the microscope. Year after
year the disease broke out in this one pool only, until the spring I broke
my leg - they all died that year. With my leg in a cast I was unable to get
out and salt dip and move them to a clean pool. I've had no outbreaks
since. I had them living in virtual quarantine for 5 years.

> Having read the responses I can see that putting a Clown in QT might beat
> an initial outbreak (or not as I've seen - 3 died) without infecting the
> other fish...but IME it is only the Clowns that get it....putting a Clown
> into QT will stress it and almost ensure that it gets ich...

## Why would a quarantine tank be more stressful than a regular tank? My
last 2 batches of clowns did fine in the Q tank. They had gravel, plants
and some rockwork to hide in - plus a few old guppies for companions. A Q
tank need not be an empty tank.

..moving a clown loach however clear it might have been in the
> QT tank will stress it and almost certainly cause ich...so maybe the
> option is to cut your losses and realise that treatment will be necessary
> whatever you do....Ich if treated quickly should not kill any fish....

## This is true. The clowns may have had something in addition to ICK.

> Apart from ich and velvet (and one that had a parasite that did not infect
> any others) I've never come across anything worse....none of my existing
> fish have ever succumbed to these....if I need to use dither fish in my
> mind that is the same as putting them in the main tank....

## Not so.... the dither fish can be culls or elderly fish that need a
quieter place to "retire." My last dithers were old decrepit guppies. As
they aged and became unattractive they were moved to the Q tank to act as
dithers and keep the N cycle going. It's far etter to lose them than the
healthy younger fish in the community tank. I learned that through
experience many years ago.

I
> don't/can't bring myself to buy fish as sacrifices to others....once I buy
> a fish, however humble or cheap, it becomes my responsibility and I get
> involved in it's care....

## This is true but they do grow old in time, or if livebearers, bear too
many fry for you to keep in a display tank.

however cheap a fish is it is a living
> creature that deserves the best I can give it - to me it is not a case of
> pounds or dollars...it can't be used as an expendable resource to test out
> the health of a more expensive fish....this is just against my
> principles....

## And you have a responsibility to keep those you already have HEALTHY and
protected from possible pathogens. Why put them at risk?

> So if Clowns can't be quarantined without other fish (which I'm starting
> to believe is the case) either I don't buy any more clowns (my favourites)
> or I put them straight in the tank and treat accordingly....

## Whatever works for you. This is what works best for me. I always have a
few old culls or elderly fish to keep the cycle going in the Q tank (a 10
gallon fully planted and filtered) and act as dithers.
--
Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastadaisy
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