Re: Character in Fish fish psychology 1938 FA

[Gill Passman]

Dick wrote:
> On 24 Nov 2005 14:53:49 -0800, "JaneyP" > wrote:
>
>
>>Character In Fish by Clifford Bower- Shore, Boards a bit
>>discoloured,otherwise good condition .1938
>>I just had to buy this...mainly on the grounds that it's such a weird
>>subject,and therefore interesting! Does pretty much what it says on the
>>cover...a plea by the author for sympathy & a deeper understanding of
>>the individuality and character of fish.
>>
>>Some headings:- Character in Fish / The water watcher / Fish can learn
>>/ Fish of outstanding character / Longevity of fish /A plea for fish
>>
>>http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=8354649953
>
>
> Do any fish we would know get any mention? Once I get to recognize an
> individual fish I definitely see behaviors distinguishing it from its
> mates. My problem when I have a number of the same species, is
> getting to recognize one from another.. In my 10 gallon tank I have 2
> Clown Loaches, I can easily see one from the other, one is larger than
> the other and the large one is more shy than the smaller.
>
> dick

Like Dick, it is the fish that I can distiguish from one another that
generally allow me to observe "personality" differences at an individual
level. Although I'm sure that similar behaviour can be seen with smaller
fish it is just harder to spot as often it is hard to distinguish one
fish from another. Although it is often obvious to see the different
behaviour of a group of a certain species of fish, however big or small.

The fish that spring to mind are cichlids, Clowns (and other botia),
gouramis, rainbows and bettas (I'm sure that there are others but these
are the ones that I have experience of)....I can spend hours watching
these fish and their social dynamics. Certain fish come to me more
readily than others....some even when no food is on offer

The dynamics of my Malawi tank is a never ending source of fascination.
For a while I had two alpha fish - now one has won over but for some
reason, against expectation, he is tolerating his previous rival (by
tolerating I mean the rival is still allowed to live)....when both fish
were alphas they would both come and hand feed from me - the deposed
king still does this even though his position in the tank is now pretty
lowly.

The whole subject of hierarchy is also quite fascinating. Afterall what
makes one fish become dominant over the others and what makes the other
fish submissive? Partly this must be down to the character of the fish.
From my observations it is not always the largest fish that becomes the
alpha so it isn't brute force.

Gill

[Dick]

On Fri, 25 Nov 2005 20:24:42 +0000, Gill Passman
> wrote:

>Dick wrote:
>> On 24 Nov 2005 14:53:49 -0800, "JaneyP" > wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Character In Fish by Clifford Bower- Shore, Boards a bit
>>>discoloured,otherwise good condition .1938
>>>I just had to buy this...mainly on the grounds that it's such a weird
>>>subject,and therefore interesting! Does pretty much what it says on the
>>>cover...a plea by the author for sympathy & a deeper understanding of
>>>the individuality and character of fish.
>>>
>>>Some headings:- Character in Fish / The water watcher / Fish can learn
>>>/ Fish of outstanding character / Longevity of fish /A plea for fish
>>>
>>>http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=8354649953
>>
>>
>The whole subject of hierarchy is also quite fascinating. Afterall what
>makes one fish become dominant over the others and what makes the other
>fish submissive? Partly this must be down to the character of the fish.
> From my observations it is not always the largest fish that becomes the
>alpha so it isn't brute force.
>
>Gill


"Heaven is where the police are British, the cooks are French, the
mechanics German, the lovers Italian and it's all organised by the
Swiss. Hell is where the chefs are British, the mechanics French, the
lover's Swiss, the police German and it's all organised by the
Italians."

This was posted in another thread, I wonder if anyone might have a
list for fish personality stereotypes.

dick

[Mary Burns]

"Gill Passman" > wrote in message
.. .
> Dick wrote:
>> On 24 Nov 2005 14:53:49 -0800, "JaneyP" > wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Character In Fish by Clifford Bower- Shore, Boards a bit
>>>discoloured,otherwise good condition .1938
>>>I just had to buy this...mainly on the grounds that it's such a weird
>>>subject,and therefore interesting! Does pretty much what it says on the
>>>cover...a plea by the author for sympathy & a deeper understanding of
>>>the individuality and character of fish.
>>>
>>>Some headings:- Character in Fish / The water watcher / Fish can learn
>>>/ Fish of outstanding character / Longevity of fish /A plea for fish
>>>
>>>http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=8354649953
>>
>>
>> Do any fish we would know get any mention? Once I get to recognize an
>> individual fish I definitely see behaviors distinguishing it from its
>> mates. My problem when I have a number of the same species, is
>> getting to recognize one from another.. In my 10 gallon tank I have 2
>> Clown Loaches, I can easily see one from the other, one is larger than
>> the other and the large one is more shy than the smaller.
>>
>> dick
>
> Like Dick, it is the fish that I can distiguish from one another that
> generally allow me to observe "personality" differences at an individual
> level. Although I'm sure that similar behaviour can be seen with smaller
> fish it is just harder to spot as often it is hard to distinguish one fish
> from another. Although it is often obvious to see the different behaviour
> of a group of a certain species of fish, however big or small.
>
> The fish that spring to mind are cichlids, Clowns (and other botia),
> gouramis, rainbows and bettas (I'm sure that there are others but these
> are the ones that I have experience of)....I can spend hours watching
> these fish and their social dynamics. Certain fish come to me more readily
> than others....some even when no food is on offer
>
> The dynamics of my Malawi tank is a never ending source of fascination.
> For a while I had two alpha fish - now one has won over but for some
> reason, against expectation, he is tolerating his previous rival (by
> tolerating I mean the rival is still allowed to live)....when both fish
> were alphas they would both come and hand feed from me - the deposed king
> still does this even though his position in the tank is now pretty lowly.
>
> The whole subject of hierarchy is also quite fascinating. Afterall what
> makes one fish become dominant over the others and what makes the other
> fish submissive? Partly this must be down to the character of the fish.
> From my observations it is not always the largest fish that becomes the
> alpha so it isn't brute force.
>
> Gill



I also spend ages watching my fish, the clowns/platies entertain me for
hours, beating the TV for my attention. The tetra with them have their own
life in the back upper level, as if no one is there. My minnow tank is very
eye catching, the males take their own territory, and the females visit and
see who they fancy today. My neon tank has 15 neons and cories. They shoal
nicely, taking turns to lead all of them around. My 2 angel tanks are the
most complex to understand, where I try to understand their complex
personalities. My first 2 gold pearscales grew up together for months, then
one day A hated B. I watched for a couple of months. New to angels, spawning
was an option as they liplocked and cleaned glass. It never happened and
lead to A dominating B. As long as B remained hidden all was well. I got
another angel, a tiny dark marble who dropped her tube straightaway and I
was able to sex one of the golds as well. They became a pair and had their
own tank. She chose B, who is the bigger of the golds, a gentle giant who
loves everyone. After 9 months of them eating the eggs /wigglers, I decided
to try something. B is too big for their 30g and needs more space. I put
them all together in another tank to see if the tiny female wanted a
different partner. it was the worst thing I could have done. A turned on his
old adversary and would not leave him alone, so his memory is superb. I
divided the tank, allowing the small angels to get through, but keeping the
golds apart. Dominant A tried anything to get through and would not leave
the divider, hating B. B just gets on with life, making the most of
anything. His small female stayed with him. In the end B and his tiny female
have remained in the 45g as he needs the space and A is now in 30g with
gravel and another tiny angel (unsexed) "A" is still unsexed, smaller than
B, fatter where B is wafer thin. I would love them altogether in a big tank,
but the 2 golds will never get along now. Big Gold is so gentle and just
can't be bothered to fight, but loves turning upside down, showing off as he
goes behind plants, a lovely nature. Medium Gold has a bad temper but
perfect with tiny angels and other fish and me.He's watching me as I type as
they are in same room.As his smaller angel gets bigger, I'm sure there will
be more problems. I would love to know his sex, but at 18 months old, he/she
is unwilling to share. My angels love being hand fed. I have also removed
other fish from the angels because angels do eat slowly if they are alone,
and appear to hate other fish swimming around them forcing them to eat too
quickly. I saw a real differnce in the way my pair ate compared to the other
2 with platies jumping in every where at meal times..Mary

[Logic316]

Dick wrote:

> "Heaven is where the police are British, the cooks are French, the
> mechanics German, the lovers Italian and it's all organised by the
> Swiss. Hell is where the chefs are British, the mechanics French, the
> lover's Swiss, the police German and it's all organised by the
> Italians."
>
> This was posted in another thread, I wonder if anyone might have a
> list for fish personality stereotypes.
>
> dick


Well, some of them do smell and drink pretty heavily.

- Logic316



"If it's tourist season, does that mean we can shoot them?"

[kay-bee]

Getting back to Malawi's, I think it's very interesting how all the other
fish seem to acknowledge the hierarchy.
In my tank of about 30 mbuna, the dominant fish in the tank had to
physically prove himself to about 2 rival challengers.
After dominating the rivals in show-downs, the rest of the tank appeared to
instinctively recognize who the 'boss' was, even though they had no
aggression-related interaction with him..

kay-bee


"Gill Passman" > wrote in message
.. .
......<snip>......
> The dynamics of my Malawi tank is a never ending source of fascination.
> For a while I had two alpha fish - now one has won over but for some
> reason, against expectation, he is tolerating his previous rival (by
> tolerating I mean the rival is still allowed to live)....when both fish
> were alphas they would both come and hand feed from me - the deposed king
> still does this even though his position in the tank is now pretty lowly.
>
> The whole subject of hierarchy is also quite fascinating. Afterall what
> makes one fish become dominant over the others and what makes the other
> fish submissive? Partly this must be down to the character of the fish.
> From my observations it is not always the largest fish that becomes the
> alpha so it isn't brute force.
>
> Gill

[NetMax]

The alpha male swims a fine line keeping his position in the pecking
order secure, from being too passive (risking daily threats) to being too
aggressive, possibly becoming damaged or over-tired and getting sprung
upon by males from lower down the pecking order sensing an opportunity.

While the pecking order exists in a low-level constant state of chaos in
many tanks, occasionally they seem to behave in a well organized and
cooperative fashion, resulting in the mortality of a fish which had
previously been unobserved as being a significant combatant. After
ganging up on the unlucky victim, they quickly return to their usual
level of posturing between themselves.

Occasionally I've been lucky to hit a nice balance of an alpha male who
is a benign leader, but still the undisputed king. More frequently this
has been with a P.zebra varieties, and never with something like
M.auratus. With a benign king in place, males fight for the beta
position, and when the battles get out of hand, the king intercedes,
sending the combatants into their respective corners to cool off.

Very often the pecking order is not determined by strength alone, and I'm
not even sure fish can evaluate each other up based on physical size. It
seems to be a combination of size, strength, stamina, brazenness,
fearlessness and determination which wins the battle (and a bit of luck).
--
www.NetMax.tk

"kay-bee" > wrote in message
news:Y4kif.2980$P33.875@trnddc01...
> Getting back to Malawi's, I think it's very interesting how all the
> other fish seem to acknowledge the hierarchy.
> In my tank of about 30 mbuna, the dominant fish in the tank had to
> physically prove himself to about 2 rival challengers.
> After dominating the rivals in show-downs, the rest of the tank
> appeared to instinctively recognize who the 'boss' was, even though
> they had no aggression-related interaction with him..
>
> kay-bee
>
>
> "Gill Passman" > wrote in message
> .. .
> .....<snip>......
>> The dynamics of my Malawi tank is a never ending source of
>> fascination. For a while I had two alpha fish - now one has won over
>> but for some reason, against expectation, he is tolerating his
>> previous rival (by tolerating I mean the rival is still allowed to
>> live)....when both fish were alphas they would both come and hand feed
>> from me - the deposed king still does this even though his position in
>> the tank is now pretty lowly.
>>
>> The whole subject of hierarchy is also quite fascinating. Afterall
>> what makes one fish become dominant over the others and what makes the
>> other fish submissive? Partly this must be down to the character of
>> the fish. From my observations it is not always the largest fish that
>> becomes the alpha so it isn't brute force.
>>
>> Gill
>
>