Assistance with a 250 Gallon

[Phloater]

Greetings everyone! I have a bit of a problem that I need to help fix.
I currently have a 45 gallon reef tank that is running wonderfully,
and a friend saw this and asked me to help him with his. His is 250
gallon built into the wall tank, I figured it would be a chemical
imbalance and he mentioned some pump problems. When I arrived there was
no filtration going on in the tank. I need assistance for redoing the
plumbing for the tank and pump/filter ideas. I did not realize that
this was going to be such an undertaking. So here is the breakdown.
250 Gallon Tank
1700 gap external pump – just used for water movement
20 gallon (maybe) small wet/dry filter with crappy protein skimmer
This is being powered by a 700 gph pump which pumps it through a UV filter.
He has some small power heads that we are going to remove once we get
the filtration fixed.
Lighting is ok, not a big issue 4 x 96 watts PC. More concerned on
getting water flowing.

Issues
1700 gph pump is not working correctly. Sucks air in and continually
shoots air bubbles in tank. Also the water level goes up and down in
the overflow it goes into. Will probably attach PVC pipe to this and
have water jets through the tank.
What kind of insump/next to sump Protein skimmer does anyone recommend
or not. Have about $500 to spend.

Is there a magical equation for intake plumbing and outgoing plumbing?
We are definitely up for redoing the plumbing for the entire tank with
PVC and proper plumbing materials. I have seen on some hard PVC pipes
knobs to control the flow.

Also what kind of pumps should be on the sump and the protein skimmer.

Thank you so much for your help!

David M. Lando

Wisconsin

[Wayne Sallee]

Phloater wrote on 11/29/2005 9:40 PM:
> I have seen on some hard PVC pipes
> knobs to control the flow.

PVC ball valves are great for redirecting current. For
example when doing a water change I redirect the water
flow with ball valves and let the pump do the work, but
don't use valves on your pump to controle the amount of
water flow if you don't have to. Instead use a pump that
is rated for the flow that you need.

Wayne Sallee
Wayne's Pets

[kim gross]

Phloater wrote:
>
> Greetings everyone! I have a bit of a problem that I need to help fix.
> I currently have a 45 gallon reef tank that is running wonderfully, and
> a friend saw this and asked me to help him with his. His is 250 gallon
> built into the wall tank, I figured it would be a chemical imbalance and
> he mentioned some pump problems. When I arrived there was no filtration
> going on in the tank. I need assistance for redoing the plumbing for
> the tank and pump/filter ideas. I did not realize that this was going
> to be such an undertaking. So here is the breakdown.
> 250 Gallon Tank
> 1700 gap external pump – just used for water movement
> 20 gallon (maybe) small wet/dry filter with crappy protein skimmer
> This is being powered by a 700 gph pump which pumps it through a UV filter.
> He has some small power heads that we are going to remove once we get
> the filtration fixed.
> Lighting is ok, not a big issue 4 x 96 watts PC. More concerned on
> getting water flowing.
>
> Issues
> 1700 gph pump is not working correctly. Sucks air in and continually
> shoots air bubbles in tank. Also the water level goes up and down in
> the overflow it goes into. Will probably attach PVC pipe to this and
> have water jets through the tank.
> What kind of insump/next to sump Protein skimmer does anyone recommend
> or not. Have about $500 to spend.
>
> Is there a magical equation for intake plumbing and outgoing plumbing?
> We are definitely up for redoing the plumbing for the entire tank with
> PVC and proper plumbing materials. I have seen on some hard PVC pipes
> knobs to control the flow.
>
> Also what kind of pumps should be on the sump and the protein skimmer.
>
> Thank you so much for your help!
>
> David M. Lando
>
> Wisconsin
>
David,

Need some info from you before we can do much. First is your friend
trying to keep in this tank. This is the reefs newsgroup, and with a
reef tank you do not have close to enough light for a 250 gallon tank,
and not close to enough water flow. Plus might be a lot better off
without the wet dry and uv. Now if this is a fish tank, that is a
different story.

Also, how is the 1700 gph pump plumbed into the system. It sounds like
it gets its water from your overflow, which is a very bad idea. A
closed loop pump should pull its water from the tank, and return it to
the tank. Your bubbles could be coming from the overflow and there is
not a lot you can do about that. The biggest problem though is that if
something happens to your sump/return pump your overflow could run dry
and your closed loop pump will also run dry.

Flow on the sump, depending on how you have the tank setup you do not
need a lot of flow on the sump the 700 gph pump could be fine. Now with
it going through a uv and back to the tank, if the plumbing is not large
enough it could restrick the flow to 300 gph or so.

On your filtration, if the tank is a reef tank, the only filtration you
need is a good skimmer and enough live rock in the tank, for a fish
tank, you will want other filtration.

Skimmer, Reef tanks need very good skimmers, for a tank of that size I
would suggest either an ASM G3 or G4 skimmer, they are both insump
skimmers though. On the sump, I would highly suggest that for a 250
gallon tank you go with a much larger sump than your little wet dry, you
should be able to pick up a 55 gallon tank for around 80 or so for a
much larger sump.

Kim Gross
www.jensalt.com

[Phloater]

To answer a few questions and make sure I have things clear.

1. He would like to do a reef tank. I am more concerned with the
filtration right now then will upgrade the lighting.

2. We are going to be removing the wet/dry & UV filter. I told him just
to get some liverock and toss it in the area the bio balls are in.

3. So the big 1700 gallon pump should just be pulling water in from the
tank and just back out. I can see if it is pulling from the overflow
that it can add air bubbles in it. I am assuming that we need to have
some sort of cage or somethign on the intake so things do not get sucked
in.

4. So both overflows should go to the sump? That does make sense too.

Thank you for all of your help. He was told some really crazy things
apparently. Like I said I have a 45 gallon reef tank, and something
this big was way out of my league.

Thanks again!

Dave

kim gross wrote:
> Phloater wrote:
>
>>
>> Greetings everyone! I have a bit of a problem that I need to help
>> fix. I currently have a 45 gallon reef tank that is running
>> wonderfully, and a friend saw this and asked me to help him with his.
>> His is 250 gallon built into the wall tank, I figured it would be a
>> chemical imbalance and he mentioned some pump problems. When I
>> arrived there was no filtration going on in the tank. I need
>> assistance for redoing the plumbing for the tank and pump/filter
>> ideas. I did not realize that this was going to be such an
>> undertaking. So here is the breakdown.
>> 250 Gallon Tank
>> 1700 gap external pump – just used for water movement
>> 20 gallon (maybe) small wet/dry filter with crappy protein skimmer
>> This is being powered by a 700 gph pump which pumps it through a UV
>> filter.
>> He has some small power heads that we are going to remove once we get
>> the filtration fixed.
>> Lighting is ok, not a big issue 4 x 96 watts PC. More concerned on
>> getting water flowing.
>>
>> Issues
>> 1700 gph pump is not working correctly. Sucks air in and continually
>> shoots air bubbles in tank. Also the water level goes up and down in
>> the overflow it goes into. Will probably attach PVC pipe to this and
>> have water jets through the tank.
>> What kind of insump/next to sump Protein skimmer does anyone recommend
>> or not. Have about $500 to spend.
>>
>> Is there a magical equation for intake plumbing and outgoing plumbing?
>> We are definitely up for redoing the plumbing for the entire tank with
>> PVC and proper plumbing materials. I have seen on some hard PVC pipes
>> knobs to control the flow.
>>
>> Also what kind of pumps should be on the sump and the protein skimmer.
>>
>> Thank you so much for your help!
>>
>> David M. Lando
>>
>> Wisconsin
>>
> David,
>
> Need some info from you before we can do much. First is your friend
> trying to keep in this tank. This is the reefs newsgroup, and with a
> reef tank you do not have close to enough light for a 250 gallon tank,
> and not close to enough water flow. Plus might be a lot better off
> without the wet dry and uv. Now if this is a fish tank, that is a
> different story.
>
> Also, how is the 1700 gph pump plumbed into the system. It sounds like
> it gets its water from your overflow, which is a very bad idea. A
> closed loop pump should pull its water from the tank, and return it to
> the tank. Your bubbles could be coming from the overflow and there is
> not a lot you can do about that. The biggest problem though is that if
> something happens to your sump/return pump your overflow could run dry
> and your closed loop pump will also run dry.
>
> Flow on the sump, depending on how you have the tank setup you do not
> need a lot of flow on the sump the 700 gph pump could be fine. Now with
> it going through a uv and back to the tank, if the plumbing is not large
> enough it could restrick the flow to 300 gph or so.
>
> On your filtration, if the tank is a reef tank, the only filtration you
> need is a good skimmer and enough live rock in the tank, for a fish
> tank, you will want other filtration.
>
> Skimmer, Reef tanks need very good skimmers, for a tank of that size I
> would suggest either an ASM G3 or G4 skimmer, they are both insump
> skimmers though. On the sump, I would highly suggest that for a 250
> gallon tank you go with a much larger sump than your little wet dry, you
> should be able to pick up a 55 gallon tank for around 80 or so for a
> much larger sump.
>
> Kim Gross
> www.jensalt.com

[kim gross]

Phloater wrote:
> To answer a few questions and make sure I have things clear.
>
> 1. He would like to do a reef tank. I am more concerned with the
> filtration right now then will upgrade the lighting.


For a reef tank the best filtration is Live Rock, a good protien Skimmer
and a live sand bed, there is some controversy over the live sand bed,
but the rest just about everybody will agree with. The only other
filtration you will need to do is some carbon ever few weeks/once a
month to clear up the yellowing of the water.
>
> 2. We are going to be removing the wet/dry & UV filter. I told him just
> to get some liverock and toss it in the area the bio balls are in.

You could put the liverock in there, but what might be better if there
is enough rock in the tank, would be to make it a refugium. Make it so
that water stays in this section, put a light on it 24/7 and grow some
algea in there. The algea will remove ammonia, and phosphate and provide
an area for pods to grow without any preditors.
>
> 3. So the big 1700 gallon pump should just be pulling water in from the
> tank and just back out. I can see if it is pulling from the overflow
> that it can add air bubbles in it. I am assuming that we need to have
> some sort of cage or somethign on the intake so things do not get sucked
> in.


Yes, for the intake, the simplest thing you can do is to just take a
piece of pipe around 12 to 16 inches long, drill a bunch of 1/4 inch
holes in it and cap the end, put this on the intake of your pump atleast
1/2 down into the tank. All of the holes will keep stuff out of the
pump, plus you will not have any more airbubbles.
>
> 4. So both overflows should go to the sump? That does make sense too.

Or set it up so that one of the overflows feeds the protien skimmer
directly if possible.

>
> Thank you for all of your help. He was told some really crazy things
> apparently. Like I said I have a 45 gallon reef tank, and something
> this big was way out of my league.

Not a problem that is why we are here.

Kim Gross
www.jensalt.com

>
> Thanks again!
>
> Dave
>
> kim gross wrote:
>
>> Phloater wrote:
>>
>>>

>

[Wayne Sallee]

Phloater wrote on 12/1/2005 11:51 PM:
> To answer a few questions and make sure I have things clear.
> I am assuming that we need to have
> some sort of cage or somethign on the intake so things do not get sucked
> in.

Needle point screen works great for this.

Wayne Sallee
Wayne's Pets

[Wayne Sallee]

kim gross wrote on 12/2/2005 3:41 AM:

> The algea will remove ammonia, and phosphate and provide
> an area for pods to grow without any preditors.

Actualy while algaes and plants will take up different
forms of nitrogen they have their preferences.
Aquatic plants prefer amonia over other forms of nitrogen,
and algae prefer nitrates over other forms of nitrogen.

So aquatic plants are good at taking up amonia, and algae
are good at taking up nitrates.

Wayne Sallee
Wayne's Pets