Female bettas

[Gill Passman]

Saw some great looking female bettas today when I went out to get
supplies...and with all this betta talk recently I was seriously
tempted...However, rather than rush out and get them there are a few
questions I've got:-

1. Does the not mix betta/gourami rule apply to females as well? Almost
all of my tanks with any free space already have Gouramis...

2. What is the minimum size tank that you would consider safe to mix
male and female bettas? or is it a case of suck it and see and have a
back up plan?

3. LFS suggested that if any mix of male and females was attempted in
the same tank then he would suggest at least 3 females to one male -
seems to tie in with stuff I've read on this ng - oh, and to have a
backup plan in place just in case. Does this sound about right?

4. If I was to keep just the females together what would be the optimum
number?

BTW I also checked how often they got females in and it's every two
weeks or so. The colours were superb - some as vivid as my males. It
struck me that they would be a very good addition to any of the
Community Tanks (providing they would get on with the existing fish)
without me having any thought of breeding them (but who knows)...

Gill

PS I really wished I'd had a camera on me today. The person serving me
isn't one of the regulars that I've seen. As I started to chat to him
about the female bettas he asked me if I had a male. When I said "Yes,
two" you should have seen the absolute look of horror on his face -
broadened to a smile when I said "oh and they have a tank each" - lol

[Tynk]

Gill Passman wrote:
> Saw some great looking female bettas today when I went out to get
> supplies...and with all this betta talk recently I was seriously
> tempted...However, rather than rush out and get them there are a few
> questions I've got:-
>
> 1. Does the not mix betta/gourami rule apply to females as well? Almost
> all of my tanks with any free space already have Gouramis...
>
> 2. What is the minimum size tank that you would consider safe to mix
> male and female bettas? or is it a case of suck it and see and have a
> back up plan?
>
> 3. LFS suggested that if any mix of male and females was attempted in
> the same tank then he would suggest at least 3 females to one male -
> seems to tie in with stuff I've read on this ng - oh, and to have a
> backup plan in place just in case. Does this sound about right?
>
> 4. If I was to keep just the females together what would be the optimum
> number?
>
> BTW I also checked how often they got females in and it's every two
> weeks or so. The colours were superb - some as vivid as my males. It
> struck me that they would be a very good addition to any of the
> Community Tanks (providing they would get on with the existing fish)
> without me having any thought of breeding them (but who knows)...
>
> Gill
>
> PS I really wished I'd had a camera on me today. The person serving me
> isn't one of the regulars that I've seen. As I started to chat to him
> about the female bettas he asked me if I had a male. When I said "Yes,
> two" you should have seen the absolute look of horror on his face -
> broadened to a smile when I said "oh and they have a tank each" - lol

::Does the little Betta dance::

Yea! You're thinking of getting females. = )
I know you won't be able to resist, so I'm figuring you're going to do
it...ok. lol

> 1. Does the not mix betta/gourami rule apply to females as well? Almost
> all of my tanks with any free space already have Gouramis...
>
Excellent question. I could be wrong, as I always have a resident male
in with the females, so I really can't say either way for sure.
I would believe, however, that the troubles between the 2 species were
with the males. Males of both types are territorial with other males of
the species and being that they are closely related, hence the probs
between the males of Gouramis and male Bettas.
I've not heard of troubles bewteen Gouramis and femals Bettas though.
So I'd go with the only concrete rule there is when it comes to housing
Bettas...have a back up plan in case it doesn't work out. = )

> 2. What is the minimum size tank that you would consider safe to mix
> male and female bettas? or is it a case of suck it and see and have a
> back up plan?

I used to recommend nothing smaller than a 10g. However, being that
females get as large as males do, just minus the long fins, I'm now
going with a 20g or larger. Don't even ask me what that is in liters,
as I haven't a clue. = /
So...to answer your Q...20g min. for 3 f's and 1m. I'd go larger if you
wanted to house more than 3 females.

> 3. LFS suggested that if any mix of male and females was attempted in
> the same tank then he would suggest at least 3 females to one male -

The minimum ratio of females is 3 anyway. Being that they have a
hierarchy (pecking order), having only 2 would be a problem for the
lowest girl on the totum pole.
If they were spawn sisters it might not be as big of a problem, or not
even an issue.
You asked what the optimum amount of females to have without a
male...as many as you can fit into the tank. = )
There will be nipping and chasing whenever new ladies are added, as
they need to figure out their place in the hierarchy. The alpha lady,
and lesser females will want their places known and will be "telling"
any new ladies their places. You also must realize that the new lady or
ladies will have their own thoughts about what place they should have.
This is all normal in a Betta society. It's only a problem if it
becomes violent to the point of constant harrassment, large chunks or
shredding is done to fins, or even chunks of flesh being taken. Of
course that 'ol back up plan would be there in case you end up with 2
alpha females and neither will submit.
You'll soon learn their "language" in no time be able to "hear" why
this one is chasing that one or why that one won't leave this other one
alone...but it isn't getting nasty, etc.
Another thing, if you add a male into the mix, he's not always the
alpha of the Betta society. He will also need to find his place.
However, know that even if there is a male in the mix, the females will
still have their own alpha, beta, all the way down to the omega (lowest
in rank), but he will fit into that somewhere.
Most males are a little excited at first when put in with females, but
usually settle down.
If he doesn't, then that back up plan must come into play. Same goes in
case you have a female/s that will not allow a male to be in their
tank.

[John D. Goulden]

> 1. Does the not mix betta/gourami rule apply to females as well? Almost
> all of my tanks with any free space already have Gouramis...

Gouramis and male bettas do not mix. I don't know about females, never tried
it (I don't keep gouramis).

> 2. What is the minimum size tank that you would consider safe to mix male
> and female bettas? or is it a case of suck it and see and have a back up
> plan?

I have often kept one male and one female in a 10-gallon. I divide the tank
and give them a few weeks to get used to each other, then remove the divider
and things almost always work out just fine. They seldom breed but in most
cases stick together most of the time - quite charming to watch.

> 3. LFS suggested that if any mix of male and females was attempted in the
> same tank then he would suggest at least 3 females to one male - seems to
> tie in with stuff I've read on this ng - oh, and to have a backup plan in
> place just in case. Does this sound about right?

As I said above, 1 male and 1 female in a 10 gallon is fine. If you want
more than one female, don't go with two - do as the LFS says and have three,
and give them a 20-gallon tank with plenty of places to hide. It's never
happened to me, but I have heard that if there are too many females to one
male, they'll sometimes gang up on and kill the male, and I've also heard of
cases where the male will kill excess females until there were only a few
for his "harem." I've only tried two male bettas in one tank (with several
females) once, and it was a 40 so they each staked out an end and left each
other alone. Mostly. The females stuck to the middle. I think it worked OK
because they were all from the same spawn and grew up together.

> 4. If I was to keep just the females together what would be the optimum
> number?

Anything other than two :) Female bettas are generally pretty good
community fish and pick on each other more than on the other inhabitants of
the tank. Most of my successful attempts at keeping large groups of female
bettas together were when they were from the same spawn, though, and tossing
in an "alien" female in with them often resulted in some fairly spectacular
re-establishing of pecking order, which was occasionally fatal to one or
more participants.

--
John Goulden
mostly goldies, guppies, swordtails and bettas

[Gill Passman]

Tynk wrote:
> Gill Passman wrote:
>
>>Saw some great looking female bettas today when I went out to get
>>supplies...and with all this betta talk recently I was seriously
>>tempted...However, rather than rush out and get them there are a few
>>questions I've got:-
>>
>>1. Does the not mix betta/gourami rule apply to females as well? Almost
>>all of my tanks with any free space already have Gouramis...
>>
>>2. What is the minimum size tank that you would consider safe to mix
>>male and female bettas? or is it a case of suck it and see and have a
>>back up plan?
>>
>>3. LFS suggested that if any mix of male and females was attempted in
>>the same tank then he would suggest at least 3 females to one male -
>>seems to tie in with stuff I've read on this ng - oh, and to have a
>>backup plan in place just in case. Does this sound about right?
>>
>>4. If I was to keep just the females together what would be the optimum
>>number?
>>
>>BTW I also checked how often they got females in and it's every two
>>weeks or so. The colours were superb - some as vivid as my males. It
>>struck me that they would be a very good addition to any of the
>>Community Tanks (providing they would get on with the existing fish)
>>without me having any thought of breeding them (but who knows)...
>>
>>Gill
>>
>>PS I really wished I'd had a camera on me today. The person serving me
>>isn't one of the regulars that I've seen. As I started to chat to him
>>about the female bettas he asked me if I had a male. When I said "Yes,
>>two" you should have seen the absolute look of horror on his face -
>>broadened to a smile when I said "oh and they have a tank each" - lol
>
>
> ::Does the little Betta dance::
>
> Yea! You're thinking of getting females. = )
> I know you won't be able to resist, so I'm figuring you're going to do
> it...ok. lol
>
>
>>1. Does the not mix betta/gourami rule apply to females as well? Almost
>>all of my tanks with any free space already have Gouramis...
>>
>
> Excellent question. I could be wrong, as I always have a resident male
> in with the females, so I really can't say either way for sure.
> I would believe, however, that the troubles between the 2 species were
> with the males. Males of both types are territorial with other males of
> the species and being that they are closely related, hence the probs
> between the males of Gouramis and male Bettas.
> I've not heard of troubles bewteen Gouramis and femals Bettas though.
> So I'd go with the only concrete rule there is when it comes to housing
> Bettas...have a back up plan in case it doesn't work out. = )
>
>
>>2. What is the minimum size tank that you would consider safe to mix
>>male and female bettas? or is it a case of suck it and see and have a
>>back up plan?
>
>
> I used to recommend nothing smaller than a 10g. However, being that
> females get as large as males do, just minus the long fins, I'm now
> going with a 20g or larger. Don't even ask me what that is in liters,
> as I haven't a clue. = /
> So...to answer your Q...20g min. for 3 f's and 1m. I'd go larger if you
> wanted to house more than 3 females.
>
>
>>3. LFS suggested that if any mix of male and females was attempted in
>>the same tank then he would suggest at least 3 females to one male -
>
>
> The minimum ratio of females is 3 anyway. Being that they have a
> hierarchy (pecking order), having only 2 would be a problem for the
> lowest girl on the totum pole.
> If they were spawn sisters it might not be as big of a problem, or not
> even an issue.
> You asked what the optimum amount of females to have without a
> male...as many as you can fit into the tank. = )
> There will be nipping and chasing whenever new ladies are added, as
> they need to figure out their place in the hierarchy. The alpha lady,
> and lesser females will want their places known and will be "telling"
> any new ladies their places. You also must realize that the new lady or
> ladies will have their own thoughts about what place they should have.
> This is all normal in a Betta society. It's only a problem if it
> becomes violent to the point of constant harrassment, large chunks or
> shredding is done to fins, or even chunks of flesh being taken. Of
> course that 'ol back up plan would be there in case you end up with 2
> alpha females and neither will submit.
> You'll soon learn their "language" in no time be able to "hear" why
> this one is chasing that one or why that one won't leave this other one
> alone...but it isn't getting nasty, etc.
> Another thing, if you add a male into the mix, he's not always the
> alpha of the Betta society. He will also need to find his place.
> However, know that even if there is a male in the mix, the females will
> still have their own alpha, beta, all the way down to the omega (lowest
> in rank), but he will fit into that somewhere.
> Most males are a little excited at first when put in with females, but
> usually settle down.
> If he doesn't, then that back up plan must come into play. Same goes in
> case you have a female/s that will not allow a male to be in their
> tank.
>
I'll resist just as long as it takes to make me sure that I am housing
them properly and that everyone will be happy and healthy - a trip to
the in-laws this weekend will delay this...

I don't intend breeding them - you do believe me don't you -
<unconvincing grin> - in reality right now I don't really have the space
to separate them all out...but give me a month or two once the current
project gets there I might do....

The current plan is to replace the 4 foot community tank with a 6
footer...hubby has taken this on board and knows it will happen however
much he pretends to protest. He is going to make a cabinet that will
stretch the entire length of the wall - around 13 foot....I'm thinking I
can have my 6 foot and move my betta tanks...and add another one for the
girls - he,he...cabinet is getting built over christmas....maybe the fry
tanks could go in the kitchen where the betta tanks are right now....big
kick...not doing this, not going there, female bettas are pretty and
would work in the other tanks...Bob and Boris don't get a look in apart
from through the glass....it just isn't going to happen - believe me
please (I know the look I'm getting but.....)

If the girlies will get on OK with the other fish I might get away with
it...if they don't woops I need another tank....rolling eyeballs from
hubby, etc. etc.

My feeling is because I have the gouramis which I actually love to bits
- I will try to keep things a little bit separate....I certainly
wouldn't add a male betta into my main tank - "Boss of the Tank" is very
terratorial (blue/three spot/opaline gourami - depends on this weeks
label) - forget the women (2) he's got in there, his main purpose in
life is to rule....then there is the challenger - the Red Rainbow who
would just love to displace the Gourami....if I added a male Betta this
would end in tears....perhaps the girls would work....

I do have a 15 gall tank but this has 2 blue dwarf gouramis and a dutch
ram....from my experience adding any bettas ended in tears...the ram
just beat on the betta - first QT tank hit the dust....betta home of
course....now I don't know if females would fair better....I think I
need to be patient rather than risk anything - although I do need a new
QT tank - last two have become betta homes...£50 for £6 of fish...yeah,
I think it's worth it (not sure hubby would agree) but then maybe I'm
just nuts....only issue is it will become a betta home too

On another note I bought Bob the betta an articial hollow log today...he
took a look, swam through the holes, came up to the front of the tank
and flared and wriggled around as if to say thank you....he loves
it....I showed my daughter and she said how dark it is in the
tank....now I've been noticing this and how I can't get plants to live
in there...put it down to the tank position....Boris has great light and
a thriving garden just two feet away...hmmm I thought...the light should
really be better than this. Took off the hood, scrubbed off the
limescale...Bob's tank is now brighter than Boris's - real plants here
we come - not hard - small cull on my son's 30 gall will do the job....

I learnt that bettas like their toys...they are no different to any
other creature....I can see in Bob's behaviour within minutes how much
of a difference this will make to his life - he's currently swimming in
and out of all the holes and then coming up to the front to flare at me
before doing a quick wriggle and off he goes again....stupid of me not
to see this before....



Gill

[NetMax]

"Gill Passman" > wrote in message
.. .
> Saw some great looking female bettas today when I went out to get
> supplies...and with all this betta talk recently I was seriously
> tempted...However, rather than rush out and get them there are a few
> questions I've got:-
>
> 1. Does the not mix betta/gourami rule apply to females as well? Almost
> all of my tanks with any free space already have Gouramis...

I would speculate that yes, it does, but to a lesser extreme, and you're
still dependant on i) the personality of the Betta, ii) tank size and
iii) the types of gouramis of course. Throw her in with some
Thick-lipped, Kissing, Pearl, Blues, Golds or Opaline gouramis and I
doubt she would cause much trouble.

> 2. What is the minimum size tank that you would consider safe to mix
> male and female bettas? or is it a case of suck it and see and have a
> back up plan?

Always have a Betta back up plan, %$#& little buggers have an excess of
personality sometimes, and the brains of a light switch.

> 3. LFS suggested that if any mix of male and females was attempted in
> the same tank then he would suggest at least 3 females to one male -
> seems to tie in with stuff I've read on this ng - oh, and to have a
> backup plan in place just in case. Does this sound about right?

Yep, the probability of harmony increases with cover for the females, so
larger planted tanks are better.

> 4. If I was to keep just the females together what would be the optimum
> number?

I used to keep 20 to 30 together. Seemed to work well ;~). I would not
put less than 3 or 4 together.

> BTW I also checked how often they got females in and it's every two
> weeks or so. The colours were superb - some as vivid as my males. It
> struck me that they would be a very good addition to any of the
> Community Tanks (providing they would get on with the existing fish)
> without me having any thought of breeding them (but who knows)...
>
> Gill

I think they can be somewhat ornery in community tanks. It really varies
by set-up (tank-mates, size etc). ymmv (definitely).
--
www.NetMax.tk

[Dr Engelbert Buxbaum]

Tynk wrote:



> > 2. What is the minimum size tank that you would consider safe to mix
> > male and female bettas? or is it a case of suck it and see and have a
> > back up plan?
>
> I used to recommend nothing smaller than a 10g. However, being that
> females get as large as males do, just minus the long fins, I'm now
> going with a 20g or larger. Don't even ask me what that is in liters,
> as I haven't a clue. = /

Multiply by about 4.5, so 20 US gal are approx. 90 l metric. That ties
with my experience. Mine is a little larger (120 l), but also contains
other species (Neons and Otos).

[Liz McGuire]

Actually, 1 US gallon = 3.7854118 liters

20g US = 75.708236 liters.

....and while we're at it, just for fun...

1 Imperial (UK) gallon = 4.54609188 liters

20g UK = 90.9218376 liters

FWIW,

Liz


Dr Engelbert Buxbaum wrote:
>
> Multiply by about 4.5, so 20 US gal are approx. 90 l metric. That ties
> with my experience. Mine is a little larger (120 l), but also contains
> other species (Neons and Otos).

[Dr Engelbert Buxbaum]

Liz McGuire wrote:

> Actually, 1 US gallon = 3.7854118 liters
> 1 Imperial (UK) gallon = 4.54609188 liters

> Dr Engelbert Buxbaum wrote:
> >
> > Multiply by about 4.5, so 20 US gal are approx. 90 l metric. That ties
> > with my experience. Mine is a little larger (120 l), but also contains
> > other species (Neons and Otos).

My goodness, you folks don't believe in making things easy, do you? Not
only non-metric units, but different from their British counterparts
too! Tut, tut, tut...