Looking for lighting suggestions

[Gill Passman]

Well the tank upgrade is continuing in the planning stages and I now
have a clearer idea of what I am going to get. Hubby is now well into
the project and will be sorting the cabinet. We're currently now
debating the height of the tank - it's going to be custom built. I was
thinking 24" but he wants to go 36" - as if I'm about to complain - lol

One thing with having it custom built is I've got to decide on the
lighting...it will have a glass cover and then a wooden hood. The tank
will either be:-

18" wide, 72" long and 24" high or
18" wide, 72" long and 36" high

I'm a little worried about lighting a 36" deep tank so am wondering what
suggestions anyone has to make on this.

TIA
Gill

[Mary Burns]

"Gill Passman" > wrote in message
...
> Well the tank upgrade is continuing in the planning stages and I now have
> a clearer idea of what I am going to get. Hubby is now well into the
> project and will be sorting the cabinet. We're currently now debating the
> height of the tank - it's going to be custom built. I was thinking 24" but
> he wants to go 36" - as if I'm about to complain - lol
>
> One thing with having it custom built is I've got to decide on the
> lighting...it will have a glass cover and then a wooden hood. The tank
> will either be:-
>
> 18" wide, 72" long and 24" high or
> 18" wide, 72" long and 36" high
>
> I'm a little worried about lighting a 36" deep tank so am wondering what
> suggestions anyone has to make on this.
>
> TIA
> Gill

I've seen special lighting units that hang from ceiling at Maidenhead
Aquatics, very expensive. I know some people in USA use shop lights as a
cheaper option. You need a lot lof light for taller tanks and that may be
too much for your clowns. I'm still at the planning stage too. I want length
and width, 7' x2' wide but only 24" deep because of the weight of water. My
Vision 260 is 24" high and hard enough to maintain. Cleaning the back glass
is only done properly using a chair, and

[Gill Passman]

Mary Burns wrote:
> "Gill Passman" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>Well the tank upgrade is continuing in the planning stages and I now have
>>a clearer idea of what I am going to get. Hubby is now well into the
>>project and will be sorting the cabinet. We're currently now debating the
>>height of the tank - it's going to be custom built. I was thinking 24" but
>>he wants to go 36" - as if I'm about to complain - lol
>>
>>One thing with having it custom built is I've got to decide on the
>>lighting...it will have a glass cover and then a wooden hood. The tank
>>will either be:-
>>
>>18" wide, 72" long and 24" high or
>>18" wide, 72" long and 36" high
>>
>>I'm a little worried about lighting a 36" deep tank so am wondering what
>>suggestions anyone has to make on this.
>>
>>TIA
>>Gill
>
>
> I've seen special lighting units that hang from ceiling at Maidenhead
> Aquatics, very expensive. I know some people in USA use shop lights as a
> cheaper option. You need a lot lof light for taller tanks and that may be
> too much for your clowns. I'm still at the planning stage too. I want length
> and width, 7' x2' wide but only 24" deep because of the weight of water. My
> Vision 260 is 24" high and hard enough to maintain. Cleaning the back glass
> is only done properly using a chair, and
>
>
I'll take a look at my local Maidenhead and see what they've got
lighting wise. They are actually going to sort getting the tank for me
using the people who custom build their tanks - all depends on what
price I get back but they actually stock some tanks from these people
(with stands) and they look good quality and well built...(company is
called Seashell Aquariums but you can't get onto their website without a
login).

I never scrape the back of my tanks - so that's one thing I don't need
to worry on - generally the collection of algae eaters keep it pretty
clean so it's not a problem. Of course, a different mix of lighting may
well cause a different set of algae problems. The tank itself will be
quite low to the ground (lower than a standard stand) - not sure how low
as hubby is doing the design on this.

The weight of the water shouldn't be too much of an issue - the floor is
concrete below the laminate (and I watched the foundations being dug)

Thanks
Gill

[Koi-lo]

"Gill Passman" > wrote in message
...
> Well the tank upgrade is continuing in the planning stages and I now have
> a clearer idea of what I am going to get. Hubby is now well into the
> project and will be sorting the cabinet. We're currently now debating the
> height of the tank - it's going to be custom built. I was thinking 24" but
> he wants to go 36" - as if I'm about to complain - lol
>
> One thing with having it custom built is I've got to decide on the
> lighting...it will have a glass cover and then a wooden hood. The tank
> will either be:-
>
> 18" wide, 72" long and 24" high or
> 18" wide, 72" long and 36" high
>
> I'm a little worried about lighting a 36" deep tank so am wondering what
> suggestions anyone has to make on this.
>
> TIA
> Gill
=========================
Are you sure your floor can support all that weight or is it a concrete
floor? If you have it 36" high I would imagine it will be hard to rearrange
what's on the bottom such as plant trimming, moving driftwood, looking for a
missing fish, moving rocks and such.
--
Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastadaisy
~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>

[Gill Passman]

Koi-lo wrote:
>
> "Gill Passman" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>> Well the tank upgrade is continuing in the planning stages and I now
>> have a clearer idea of what I am going to get. Hubby is now well into
>> the project and will be sorting the cabinet. We're currently now
>> debating the height of the tank - it's going to be custom built. I was
>> thinking 24" but he wants to go 36" - as if I'm about to complain - lol
>>
>> One thing with having it custom built is I've got to decide on the
>> lighting...it will have a glass cover and then a wooden hood. The tank
>> will either be:-
>>
>> 18" wide, 72" long and 24" high or
>> 18" wide, 72" long and 36" high
>>
>> I'm a little worried about lighting a 36" deep tank so am wondering
>> what suggestions anyone has to make on this.
>>
>> TIA
>> Gill
>
> =========================
> Are you sure your floor can support all that weight or is it a concrete
> floor? If you have it 36" high I would imagine it will be hard to
> rearrange what's on the bottom such as plant trimming, moving driftwood,
> looking for a missing fish, moving rocks and such.

All of the downstairs floors in our house are concrete. The room itself
also is built on deep foundations as per UK building regs so it's not
going very far...

The height is still under negotiation - although the tank will not be on
a standard height stand - the entire unit will be the full length of the
wall with the tank in the centre probably at a lower level to the main
structure - cupboards either side for housing the necessary kit - ie.
filters/pumps etc.

The main point of this post was to get ideas on what type of lighting
would be required for a tank of this size which will either be 24" or
36" high (or maybe inbetween) - the maintenance considerations are
another issue...It will of course be planted which I think I forgot to
mention in my original post

Gill

[Marco Schwarz]

Hi..

> One thing with having it custom built is I've got to
> decide on the lighting...it will have a glass cover and
> then a wooden hood. The tank will either be:-
> 18" wide, 72" long and 24" high or
> 18" wide, 72" long and 36" high

The "highest" tank I've ever had was 60cm / 24".
I personally think that's the limit for someone with normal
long arms who prefer life plants and has T8 (better T5)
lamps.

> I'm a little worried about lighting a 36" deep tank so am
> wondering what suggestions anyone has to make on this.

I knew someone who had a 100cm / 25" high tank for discus
what prefer tanks with roots and less light. A great tank
for discus - not for life plants.
--
cu
Marco

[Marco Schwarz]

> The "highest" tank I've ever had was 60cm / 24".
Sorry: 60cm / 15"

--
cu
Marco

[Marco Schwarz]

latest offer:
60cm / 24"
100 cm / 40"
--
cu
Marco

[Koi-lo]

"Gill Passman" > wrote in message
...
> Koi-lo wrote:
>>
>> "Gill Passman" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>> I'm a little worried about lighting a 36" deep tank so am wondering what
>>> suggestions anyone has to make on this.
>>>
>>> TIA
>>> Gill
>>
>> =========================
>> Are you sure your floor can support all that weight or is it a concrete
>> floor? If you have it 36" high I would imagine it will be hard to
>> rearrange what's on the bottom such as plant trimming, moving driftwood,
>> looking for a missing fish, moving rocks and such.
>
> All of the downstairs floors in our house are concrete. The room itself
> also is built on deep foundations as per UK building regs so it's not
> going very far...

Then go for it!!!! :-))

> The height is still under negotiation - although the tank will not be on a
> standard height stand - the entire unit will be the full length of the
> wall with the tank in the centre probably at a lower level to the main
> structure - cupboards either side for housing the necessary kit - ie.
> filters/pumps etc.

That sounds like some kind of dream come true.

> The main point of this post was to get ideas on what type of lighting
> would be required for a tank of this size which will either be 24" or 36"
> high (or maybe inbetween) - the maintenance considerations are another
> issue...It will of course be planted which I think I forgot to mention in
> my original post

I would think you will need some expensive high intensity lights, and lots
of them if you want to grow healthy plants, especially if it's 3' deep. .
Figure in the heat they will create. Surely you will need to suspend them
on chains above the water surface so the water doesn't get too warm in the
summer months. There are light fixtures here in the US that have fans in
the hoods to blow off the excess heat....... all are quite expensive here.
--

Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastadaisy
~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>

[Koi-lo]

"Marco Schwarz" > wrote in message
...
>> The "highest" tank I've ever had was 60cm / 24".
> Sorry: 60cm / 15"
>
> --
> cu
> Marco
==========================
My 55s at 20 1/2" are as deep as I want to go.
--

Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastadaisy
~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>

[Gill Passman]

Koi-lo wrote:
>
> "Gill Passman" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>> Koi-lo wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> "Gill Passman" > wrote in message
>>> ...
>>>
>>>> I'm a little worried about lighting a 36" deep tank so am wondering
>>>> what suggestions anyone has to make on this.
>>>>
>>>> TIA
>>>> Gill
>>>
>>>
>>> =========================
>>> Are you sure your floor can support all that weight or is it a
>>> concrete floor? If you have it 36" high I would imagine it will be
>>> hard to rearrange what's on the bottom such as plant trimming, moving
>>> driftwood, looking for a missing fish, moving rocks and such.
>>
>>
>> All of the downstairs floors in our house are concrete. The room
>> itself also is built on deep foundations as per UK building regs so
>> it's not going very far...
>
>
> Then go for it!!!! :-))
>
>> The height is still under negotiation - although the tank will not be
>> on a standard height stand - the entire unit will be the full length
>> of the wall with the tank in the centre probably at a lower level to
>> the main structure - cupboards either side for housing the necessary
>> kit - ie. filters/pumps etc.
>
>
> That sounds like some kind of dream come true.
>
>> The main point of this post was to get ideas on what type of lighting
>> would be required for a tank of this size which will either be 24" or
>> 36" high (or maybe inbetween) - the maintenance considerations are
>> another issue...It will of course be planted which I think I forgot to
>> mention in my original post
>
>
> I would think you will need some expensive high intensity lights, and
> lots of them if you want to grow healthy plants, especially if it's 3'
> deep. . Figure in the heat they will create. Surely you will need to
> suspend them on chains above the water surface so the water doesn't get
> too warm in the summer months. There are light fixtures here in the US
> that have fans in the hoods to blow off the excess heat....... all are
> quite expensive here.

After getting some initial pricing I think we are now talking 30 inches
- the LFS that is sorting this for me has a display tank of the same
size built by the same people so I'm going to talk to them about the
lighting that they use - tank is absolutely gorgeous and planted...the
problem with the 36" apparently is that we get into a different ball
game in terms of reinforcement and glass thickness....and oh yes price.
Right now it's coming out quite reasonable and within budget....budget
is quite large because the deal is I sell my car (surplus to
requirements as we currently have 3 vehicles and only two drivers). I
must admit that I am very excited about this project and want to get it
right....custom is really the only way to go to get what I want...next
option is a new house with more tank space but that isn't going to
happen for quite a few years....

The sinking it into the cabinet wasn't my idea but I think it will look
good....I got "told" if I just want to stick a tank on a cabinet I may
as well stick with the one I've got...probably very lucky to have an SO
so willing to join in with this project :-)

Oh, and the tank that I've got is going to move to the office and
probably become a Neon tetra species tank - imagine a shoal of between
50-100 tetras racing around in a 4 foot tank....(I blame NetMax for this
thought - lol)

I've thought about the chain idea...problem is that part of the deal is
an LCD Monitor in the room and it might just look too busy....hence the
need for some good ideas....saw a tank where the hood was raised above
the tank with the lights being around 6-9" above the water surface -
another idea worth a try....so much research - he,he - so much fun....

[Koi-lo]

On Fri, 09 Dec 2005 22:51:16 +0000, Gill Passman
> wrote:
Check out Hellolights.com for soome good prices on aquarium lights.
Sure beats prices any LFS is gonna charge. Sinc eyour getting a custom
made tank, odds are your not going to go with stock hoods or lights,
and the T5 HO lights are a surefire method of lighting, and are
available in all spectrum ranges, as are PC lights......Big problem is
ballasts associated with better lights, which even makes the
hellolight kits both custom and retrofit, even more appealing since
they have remote mounted ballasts so they do not add any latent heat
in the tanks..... I know I saved over $280 in reef lighting for a much
better unit than what any of the lfs were able to supply off the
shelf.

http://hellolights.com

--
\\\|///
( @ @ )
-----------oOOo(_)oOOo---------------


oooO
---------( )----Oooo----------------
\ ( ( )
\_) ) /
(_/
The original frugal ponder! Koi-ahoi mates....

[Gill Passman]

Koi-lo wrote:
> On Fri, 09 Dec 2005 22:51:16 +0000, Gill Passman
> > wrote:
> Check out Hellolights.com for soome good prices on aquarium lights.
> Sure beats prices any LFS is gonna charge. Sinc eyour getting a custom
> made tank, odds are your not going to go with stock hoods or lights,
> and the T5 HO lights are a surefire method of lighting, and are
> available in all spectrum ranges, as are PC lights......Big problem is
> ballasts associated with better lights, which even makes the
> hellolight kits both custom and retrofit, even more appealing since
> they have remote mounted ballasts so they do not add any latent heat
> in the tanks..... I know I saved over $280 in reef lighting for a much
> better unit than what any of the lfs were able to supply off the
> shelf.
>
> http://hellolights.com
>

The prices I'm getting are with hoods but no lights...not sure that we
can be bothered with custom making the hood as well as the unit that the
tank will sit in....I did a quick check on the site and it looks like a
very good research/purchase resource (if they ship to the UK).

Thanks....

BTW I'm getting a little confused (which I'm sure is the purpose). If
you are Roy please post as Roy - you gave me some great advice on
rec.ponds when I posted about my pond plans (still plans but let's get
this project under my belt) and I've seen some other good posts that you
have made to this ng, this included. If you are Carol please post
consistently to avoid confusion....

And any trolls out there please don't answer this coz I'm just not
interested....

Gill

[NetMax]

"Gill Passman" > wrote in message
...
> Well the tank upgrade is continuing in the planning stages and I now
> have a clearer idea of what I am going to get. Hubby is now well into
> the project and will be sorting the cabinet. We're currently now
> debating the height of the tank - it's going to be custom built. I was
> thinking 24" but he wants to go 36" - as if I'm about to complain - lol

You might complain when it comes to maintenance. I've had a few 24" &
25" tanks, and that's as deep as I'd like to go. With a lower base and a
few inches of gravel, 30" might be ok. A few points regarding a 36"
tank. This is the limit when it comes to all-glass tanks (48" being the
theoretical max on silicone, so leaving 25% margin), so construction
qualitiy gets very important (surface preparation) and they need good
references and warranty history. The glass thickness at 36" might be
cost prohibitive. Expect to do most of your decorating and arranging
when there is no water in the tank. ...and there is the issue of
lighting, as you are exploring.

> One thing with having it custom built is I've got to decide on the
> lighting...it will have a glass cover and then a wooden hood. The tank
> will either be:-
>
> 18" wide, 72" long and 24" high or
> 18" wide, 72" long and 36" high

134 or 200 us gal. I'd go with a 24" wide, 72" long and 24" high tank
(180g us), as this gives you more planting real-estate and would be
easier to illuminate.

> I'm a little worried about lighting a 36" deep tank so am wondering
> what suggestions anyone has to make on this.

Pendulum halogens or metal halides? A suspended canopy filled with T5s?
A closed canopy with external ballasts & passive ventilation (or internal
ballasts and active ventilation). An elipsical stainless steel duct
coming down from a domed skylight, lined with LEDs which would stage on
progressively throughout the day according to a light sensor?
....maybe I'm the wrong person to ask ;~)
--
www.NetMax.tk

> TIA
> Gill

[Koi-lo]

"Gill Passman" > wrote in message
...
>
> After getting some initial pricing I think we are now talking 30 inches -
> the LFS that is sorting this for me has a display tank of the same size
> built by the same people so I'm going to talk to them about the lighting
> that they use - tank is absolutely gorgeous and planted...the problem with
> the 36" apparently is that we get into a different ball game in terms of
> reinforcement and glass thickness....and oh yes price.

It's only a 6" difference. 30" is quite deep initself.

> Right now it's coming out quite reasonable and within budget....budget is
> quite large because the deal is I sell my car (surplus to requirements as
> we currently have 3 vehicles and only two drivers). I must admit that I am
> very excited about this project and want to get it right....custom is
> really the only way to go to get what I want...next option is a new house
> with more tank space but that isn't going to happen for quite a few
> years....

I know what you mean. As big as our house is it has a lot of windows and
doorways so wall space isn't unlimited. We also have too much furniture in
here. We had an even bigger house in town when we first married. I want to
move the large Chippendale hutch out of my diningroom where my PC and desk
are, and put a large tank on that wall. I would only have to turn my head
to see it, not go into the sun-fishroom to enjoy my beauties.

> The sinking it into the cabinet wasn't my idea but I think it will look
> good....I got "told" if I just want to stick a tank on a cabinet I may as
> well stick with the one I've got...probably very lucky to have an SO so
> willing to join in with this project :-)

You got THAT right. ;-) My husband only has a passing interest in
aquariums and ponds.

> Oh, and the tank that I've got is going to move to the office and probably
> become a Neon tetra species tank - imagine a shoal of between 50-100
> tetras racing around in a 4 foot tank....(I blame NetMax for this
> thought - lol)

I had a 20Long in NY of all neon's and another type of tetra that also had
that neon look that I can't recall the name of. It was really beautiful
with live plants and the small schools of these fish. They especially
looked nice swimming in and out of the vals. They don't do as well here in
our hard alkaline water as they did in the soft acid water of NY. I had
water-sprite on the surface to dim the light a bit for them.

> I've thought about the chain idea...problem is that part of the deal is an
> LCD Monitor in the room and it might just look too busy....hence the need
> for some good ideas....saw a tank where the hood was raised above the tank
> with the lights being around 6-9" above the water surface - another idea
> worth a try....so much research - he,he - so much fun....

You are wise in doing the research first before making a possible costly
mistake.......
--
Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastadaisy
~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>

>

[Koi-lo]

"Gill Passman" > wrote in message
...
> Thanks....
> BTW I'm getting a little confused (which I'm sure is the purpose). If you
> are Roy please post as Roy - you gave me some great advice on rec.ponds
> when I posted about my pond plans (still plans but let's get this project
> under my belt) and I've seen some other good posts that you have made to
> this ng, this included. If you are Carol please post consistently to avoid
> confusion....

Please don't get confused. We are not the same person Gill. He has changed
his name from "Roy" to "Koi-lo." I post from Direcway.com and Roy posts
from Earthlink.net. A quick look at the header of the message will tell you
who is who if in doubt.

> And any trolls out there please don't answer this coz I'm just not
> interested....

How large of a pond did you have planned and do you plan to have koi and
goldfish both? I get as much pleasure from my ponds and pools of outdoor
fish as I get from my indoor aquariums.
--
Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastadaisy
~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>

[cat daddy]

"Koi-lo" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Gill Passman" > wrote in message
> ...
> > Thanks....
> > BTW I'm getting a little confused (which I'm sure is the purpose). If
you
> > are Roy please post as Roy - you gave me some great advice on rec.ponds
> > when I posted about my pond plans (still plans but let's get this
project
> > under my belt) and I've seen some other good posts that you have made to
> > this ng, this included. If you are Carol please post consistently to
avoid
> > confusion....
>
> Please don't get confused. We are not the same person Gill. He has
changed
> his name from "Roy" to "Koi-lo." I post from Direcway.com and Roy posts
> from Earthlink.net. A quick look at the header of the message will tell
you
> who is who if in doubt.

She specifically told you not to answer.

> > And any trolls out there please don't answer this coz I'm just not
> > interested....

See?

> How large of a pond did you have planned and do you plan to have koi and
> goldfish both? I get as much pleasure from my ponds and pools of outdoor
> fish as I get from my indoor aquariums.
> --
> Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
> My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
> http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastadaisy
> ~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>
>
>
>
>

[Bill Stock]

"NetMax" > wrote in message
.. .
> "Gill Passman" > wrote in message
> ...
>> Well the tank upgrade is continuing in the planning stages and I now have
>> a clearer idea of what I am going to get. Hubby is now well into the
>> project and will be sorting the cabinet. We're currently now debating the
>> height of the tank - it's going to be custom built. I was thinking 24"
>> but he wants to go 36" - as if I'm about to complain - lol
>
> You might complain when it comes to maintenance. I've had a few 24" & 25"
> tanks, and that's as deep as I'd like to go. With a lower base and a few
> inches of gravel, 30" might be ok. A few points regarding a 36" tank.
> This is the limit when it comes to all-glass tanks (48" being the
> theoretical max on silicone, so leaving 25% margin), so construction
> qualitiy gets very important (surface preparation) and they need good
> references and warranty history. The glass thickness at 36" might be cost
> prohibitive. Expect to do most of your decorating and arranging when
> there is no water in the tank. ...and there is the issue of lighting, as
> you are exploring.
>
>> One thing with having it custom built is I've got to decide on the
>> lighting...it will have a glass cover and then a wooden hood. The tank
>> will either be:-
>>
>> 18" wide, 72" long and 24" high or
>> 18" wide, 72" long and 36" high
>
> 134 or 200 us gal. I'd go with a 24" wide, 72" long and 24" high tank
> (180g us), as this gives you more planting real-estate and would be easier
> to illuminate.
>
>> I'm a little worried about lighting a 36" deep tank so am wondering what
>> suggestions anyone has to make on this.
>
> Pendulum halogens or metal halides? A suspended canopy filled with T5s? A
> closed canopy with external ballasts & passive ventilation (or internal
> ballasts and active ventilation). An elipsical stainless steel duct
> coming down from a domed skylight, lined with LEDs which would stage on
> progressively throughout the day according to a light sensor? ...maybe I'm
> the wrong person to ask ;~)

I kinda like the skylight idea. Very environmental like, should make a nice
Algae farm. :)

If you go for the Metal Halide, you want the batwing reflector with the
horizonatally mounted bulb. I have a 1000W pendulum over the indoor pond,
which works OK, as the pond is almost a perfect circle.

Gil,

I saw an article recently on the effect of depth on tank lighting. If I can
find it, I'll post the link. It's somewhere in Google though.

I'm with Max on not going over 24" for maintenance reasons.




> --
> www.NetMax.tk
>
>> TIA
>> Gill
>
>

[Gill Passman]

NetMax wrote:
> "Gill Passman" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>Well the tank upgrade is continuing in the planning stages and I now
>>have a clearer idea of what I am going to get. Hubby is now well into
>>the project and will be sorting the cabinet. We're currently now
>>debating the height of the tank - it's going to be custom built. I was
>>thinking 24" but he wants to go 36" - as if I'm about to complain - lol
>
>
> You might complain when it comes to maintenance. I've had a few 24" &
> 25" tanks, and that's as deep as I'd like to go. With a lower base and a
> few inches of gravel, 30" might be ok. A few points regarding a 36"
> tank. This is the limit when it comes to all-glass tanks (48" being the
> theoretical max on silicone, so leaving 25% margin), so construction
> qualitiy gets very important (surface preparation) and they need good
> references and warranty history. The glass thickness at 36" might be
> cost prohibitive. Expect to do most of your decorating and arranging
> when there is no water in the tank. ...and there is the issue of
> lighting, as you are exploring.
>
>
>>One thing with having it custom built is I've got to decide on the
>>lighting...it will have a glass cover and then a wooden hood. The tank
>>will either be:-
>>
>>18" wide, 72" long and 24" high or
>>18" wide, 72" long and 36" high
>
>
> 134 or 200 us gal. I'd go with a 24" wide, 72" long and 24" high tank
> (180g us), as this gives you more planting real-estate and would be
> easier to illuminate.
>
>
>>I'm a little worried about lighting a 36" deep tank so am wondering
>>what suggestions anyone has to make on this.
>
>
> Pendulum halogens or metal halides? A suspended canopy filled with T5s?
> A closed canopy with external ballasts & passive ventilation (or internal
> ballasts and active ventilation). An elipsical stainless steel duct
> coming down from a domed skylight, lined with LEDs which would stage on
> progressively throughout the day according to a light sensor?
> ...maybe I'm the wrong person to ask ;~)

Dragged hubby along to the LFS to look at their 30" high 6 foot display
tank and it's pretty much what he wants to go with - sometimes you just
have to give in to them :-) I'm a bit worried about the maintenance but
am guessing if it is mounted low enough and I do most of it at the same
time as the water change I won't get too wet (if I can't get at all the
spot algae then guess who will have to do it - he,he - afterall he did
say that he didn't see that the maintenance would be too much of an
issue (to be fair he does help when he has the time)...the display tank
at the LFS looks great as there is room for the taller growing plants -
I have some of these in the current tank (18" high) but the leaves just
drag across the surface and look a bit tatty - obviously I bought the
wrong plant for the tank as I would guess they are around 10" longer
than the depth available. They have fantastic shoals of Neons and
Rasboras in its current incarnation that just look amazing. One key I'm
sure will be to get the plant and clean up crew balance correct
otherwise I'll be in for problems...It's going to have to be limited to
18" wide though as I guess we do need some floor space left in the room....

As far as lighting is concerned the suspended canopies are out
apparently...although I did like the one done by Arcadia with the mix of
halide and flourescent - so it looks like a closed canopy option. The
canopy is now going to be a home built one so that we can match the wood
of the cabinet. In terms of the lighting I think I'm pretty much going
to have to hand this over - as long as I know the options and required
amount of light hubby is pretty good at this sort of thing - only one or
two standard lights in our house mainly it's all halogen - the room I'm
in right now has 11 halogen spotlights....he also sticks them all onto
timers and dimmers to create different moods - hopefully he'll integrate
the tank lighting system into the house one. One thought that he had, as
the tank will be sunk into the cabinet, is to add side lighting to light
the lower levels of the tank (LEDs possibly).

The halides are certainly worth a good look as might be the halogens -
local LFS is now starting to stock the Arcadia stuff....

Tank will get ordered next week once I'm clear on pricing. Once the tank
arrives work will start on the cabinet as we need to be sure it will fit
in. Next fun thing is moving the existing 4 foot tank - there is a wall
it can go on but not until Christmas entertaining is over and done with...

I think I'm clear on what I am going to do in terms of substrate -
flourite and then fine-ish gravel like I have in the existing. The
filtration will be my existing Fluval 404 plus the 304 sitting in the
garage unused (it's what the LFS are using on their similar tank) - if
budget allows I might get tempted by the 5FX as that also now has a
feature to use it for water changes (the thought of lugging all the
buckets through the house makes this quite tempting). I'm going to stick
with the Hagen heaters - I'm thinking two 300W - one at each end...I'll
have to add some more driftwood and plants (better get going on taking
the cuttings from the other tanks) and I'm thinking I might put some
rockwork in there as well but not sure yet....and then the fun begins
when I can start adding some more fish :-)

NetMax, you are never the wrong person to ask :-) Existing tank is
probably going to turn into an all Neon tetra tank at the office (might
add a few rasboras as well) but I need to research auto feeders if we do
this...that scheme won't be in this budget....

Once this monster of a tank goes in that is probably it...well at least
until my plan of changing the garage into the kitchen and the kitchen
into a family room comes off - lots of available wall space then as the
kitchen isn't small - he,he...we don't use the garage and it's integral
to the house so it actually makes sense for family reasons...going to
cost though so is a project for some time in the future....

Thanks everyone for helping me focus on the options

Gill

[Gill Passman]

Koi-lo wrote:
>
> "Gill Passman" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>
>> After getting some initial pricing I think we are now talking 30
>> inches - the LFS that is sorting this for me has a display tank of the
>> same size built by the same people so I'm going to talk to them about
>> the lighting that they use - tank is absolutely gorgeous and
>> planted...the problem with the 36" apparently is that we get into a
>> different ball game in terms of reinforcement and glass
>> thickness....and oh yes price.
>
>
> It's only a 6" difference. 30" is quite deep initself.
>
>> Right now it's coming out quite reasonable and within budget....budget
>> is quite large because the deal is I sell my car (surplus to
>> requirements as we currently have 3 vehicles and only two drivers). I
>> must admit that I am very excited about this project and want to get
>> it right....custom is really the only way to go to get what I
>> want...next option is a new house with more tank space but that isn't
>> going to happen for quite a few years....
>
>
> I know what you mean. As big as our house is it has a lot of windows and
> doorways so wall space isn't unlimited. We also have too much furniture
> in here. We had an even bigger house in town when we first married. I
> want to move the large Chippendale hutch out of my diningroom where my
> PC and desk are, and put a large tank on that wall. I would only have
> to turn my head to see it, not go into the sun-fishroom to enjoy my
> beauties.
>
>> The sinking it into the cabinet wasn't my idea but I think it will
>> look good....I got "told" if I just want to stick a tank on a cabinet
>> I may as well stick with the one I've got...probably very lucky to
>> have an SO so willing to join in with this project :-)
>
>
> You got THAT right. ;-) My husband only has a passing interest in
> aquariums and ponds.
>
>> Oh, and the tank that I've got is going to move to the office and
>> probably become a Neon tetra species tank - imagine a shoal of between
>> 50-100 tetras racing around in a 4 foot tank....(I blame NetMax for
>> this thought - lol)
>
>
> I had a 20Long in NY of all neon's and another type of tetra that also
> had that neon look that I can't recall the name of. It was really
> beautiful with live plants and the small schools of these fish. They
> especially looked nice swimming in and out of the vals. They don't do
> as well here in our hard alkaline water as they did in the soft acid
> water of NY. I had water-sprite on the surface to dim the light a bit
> for them.
>
>> I've thought about the chain idea...problem is that part of the deal
>> is an LCD Monitor in the room and it might just look too busy....hence
>> the need for some good ideas....saw a tank where the hood was raised
>> above the tank with the lights being around 6-9" above the water
>> surface - another idea worth a try....so much research - he,he - so
>> much fun....
>
>
> You are wise in doing the research first before making a possible costly
> mistake.......

Our water here is hard with an high pH so not the best for Neons - they
generally do OK but are very sensitive to any meds or changes. If it was
a species tank I would look at ways of trying to sort this -
non-chemical as I can't be bothered with all that brings...the tetra
tank is the next project once the biggy gets done.

We went to the LFS today as they have a 30" high 6 foot tank made by the
same people. It's the one that hubby wants so I'm just going to have to
go with it - who am I to argue? and yep, I do know I'm the one who is
going to have to maintain it....30" is stretching it...I did try saying
"how about 24"? Look at this tank..." but no shift....actually the
potential for growing big plants in the 30" is brilliant (providing the
lighting is right) - I have plants in my 18" high tanks that are
spreading across the surface as there isn't the height to accomodate
them....

As for the pond, it's something I'm still mulling over in my head. The
problem is location in our garden...one area that has usable space has
lots of trees which from my last venture was a definite no,no...another
area has something known as a soakaway pipe - a ceramic pipe that takes
water away from the house guttering into a drainage hole...in places it
is only 18" under the soil so I wouldn't be able to get the necessary
depth even if most of the pond was raised (which it would be). The only
other location has 3 large clumps of bamboo which would restrict the
size and shape of the pond...I'm worried about the roots and I'm not
about to dig up the bamboo because it looks great (another passion of
mine is the garden). Right now my daughter is probably too young to be
safe around a pond (and I hate the look of the grids that you can buy)
so there are a few more years to plan properly. In terms of fish, I
wouldn't be allowed by hubby to go anything other than Koi and with my
current (and future) tank commitments I'm not sure that I have the time
right now to provide the necessary care - maybe in the future....so pond
is shelved for a couple of years and then I'll look at it again....

Gill

[Steve]

Gill Passman wrote:

>
> As far as lighting is concerned the suspended canopies are out
> apparently...although I did like the one done by Arcadia with the mix of
> halide and flourescent - so it looks like a closed canopy option. The
> canopy is now going to be a home built one so that we can match the wood
> of the cabinet.

I built the canopy for my 90 gal aquarium. My main regrets are, that I
built it in one piece and the "shop light" fixtures screwed into it are
heavy. The whole canopy is heavy, and hard to lift off the aquarium for
fluorescent tube changing. It slides back ok for routine maintenance,
however. I also have drilled more ventilation holes in the canopy over
the years, and screwed the shop lights to thin wooden rails so that
their backs could cool - my ballasts were leaking tar inside the
fixtures from the heat :) .

Here's a suggestion based on my experience, and on pictures I've seen in
"Dutch" aquarium books. Make the canopy as a frame, into the top of
which rest removable panels holding the lighting. These panels will be
easier to lift out for lighting changes etc.

I built my aquarium stand 25 inches tall to easily watch the fish from
an easy chair. This turned out to be a good thing because the aquarium
is 24 inches tall, and with the low stand height I can reach the
aquarium bottom without standing on a stool.

Again regarding maintenance, I guess you'd want a hinging/ removeable
front panel in the canopy, so that when you slide it back you can then
reach into the tank easily. That's how I built mine, and it works out
very well. I would not want to reach into the open top of a canopy frame
with removed lights to do maintenance, because it would effectively make
the tank deeper - hence the hinging panel suggestion. I think such a
panel is pretty standard practice, anyway,

Your project still sounds like a lot of fun!

Steve

[Gill Passman]

Steve wrote:
> Gill Passman wrote:
>
>>
>> As far as lighting is concerned the suspended canopies are out
>> apparently...although I did like the one done by Arcadia with the mix
>> of halide and flourescent - so it looks like a closed canopy option.
>> The canopy is now going to be a home built one so that we can match
>> the wood of the cabinet.
>
>
> I built the canopy for my 90 gal aquarium. My main regrets are, that I
> built it in one piece and the "shop light" fixtures screwed into it are
> heavy. The whole canopy is heavy, and hard to lift off the aquarium for
> fluorescent tube changing. It slides back ok for routine maintenance,
> however. I also have drilled more ventilation holes in the canopy over
> the years, and screwed the shop lights to thin wooden rails so that
> their backs could cool - my ballasts were leaking tar inside the
> fixtures from the heat :) .
>
> Here's a suggestion based on my experience, and on pictures I've seen in
> "Dutch" aquarium books. Make the canopy as a frame, into the top of
> which rest removable panels holding the lighting. These panels will be
> easier to lift out for lighting changes etc.
>
> I built my aquarium stand 25 inches tall to easily watch the fish from
> an easy chair. This turned out to be a good thing because the aquarium
> is 24 inches tall, and with the low stand height I can reach the
> aquarium bottom without standing on a stool.
>
> Again regarding maintenance, I guess you'd want a hinging/ removeable
> front panel in the canopy, so that when you slide it back you can then
> reach into the tank easily. That's how I built mine, and it works out
> very well. I would not want to reach into the open top of a canopy frame
> with removed lights to do maintenance, because it would effectively make
> the tank deeper - hence the hinging panel suggestion. I think such a
> panel is pretty standard practice, anyway,
>
> Your project still sounds like a lot of fun!
>
> Steve
>
>
I'm thinking of mulitple hinged panels especially if made of real
wood...I tried lifting one on a 36" tank they had at the LFS and found
it very heavy...I'm thinking maybe 3 hinged panels of around 24" length
each...possibly two at a push.

One of the things that put me off the Rena was the fact that you needed
to slide the lights before you could even begin any maintenance...I
usually algae scrape with the lights on as it helps me see better...

Having individual removable components makes a lot of sense....I'll run
it past the boss....

Thanks
Gill

[Koi-lo]

"Gill Passman" > wrote in message
...
> Koi-lo wrote:
>> You are wise in doing the research first before making a possible costly
>> mistake.......
=================
> Our water here is hard with an high pH so not the best for Neons - they
> generally do OK but are very sensitive to any meds or changes. If it was a
> species tank I would look at ways of trying to sort this - non-chemical as
> I can't be bothered with all that brings...the tetra tank is the next
> project once the biggy gets done.

## Our water here is so hard and alkaline I've given up on any fish that
prefers water at 7 or below, or if they need soft water. So that kind of
limits what I can keep and keep healthy. My bettas do ok but don't breed
well in this water. Most cichilids, goldfish and koi thrive in it though.
:-) The bigger the tank the harder and more expensive it would be to
control the PH at something different than comes from your tap. Better to
work with the PH you have there.

> We went to the LFS today as they have a 30" high 6 foot tank made by the
> same people. It's the one that hubby wants so I'm just going to have to go
> with it - who am I to argue? and yep, I do know I'm the one who is going
> to have to maintain it....30" is stretching it...I did try saying "how
> about 24"? Look at this tank..." but no shift....actually the potential
> for growing big plants in the 30" is brilliant (providing the lighting is
> right) - I have plants in my 18" high tanks that are spreading across the
> surface as there isn't the height to accomodate them....

## You're still getting a tank anyone would envy!!! The only plants
planted in the gravel that reach the surface in my 55s are the American
Vals. They will also tolerate some salt in the water and no fish eats or
bothers them (except cichlids).

> As for the pond, it's something I'm still mulling over in my head. The
> problem is location in our garden...one area that has usable space has
> lots of trees which from my last venture was a definite no,no...another
> area has something known as a soakaway pipe - a ceramic pipe that takes
> water away from the house guttering into a drainage hole...in places it is
> only 18" under the soil so I wouldn't be able to get the necessary depth
> even if most of the pond was raised (which it would be). The only other
> location has 3 large clumps of bamboo which would restrict the size and
> shape of the pond...I'm worried about the roots and I'm not about to dig
> up the bamboo because it looks great (another passion of mine is the
> garden).

## We have a lot in common. I'm another garden nut. :-)) Maybe a pond just
wouldn't do your situation. But you can always put out a few drop-cloth
lined 150g kiddy pools. I have loads of them going in summer. They're
hidden behind my house.
This summers last garden project was putting out a bearded iris bed. Not
cheap but will be magnificent in a year or two.

Right now my daughter is probably too young to be
> safe around a pond (and I hate the look of the grids that you can buy) so
> there are a few more years to plan properly. In terms of fish, I wouldn't
> be allowed by hubby to go anything other than Koi and with my current (and
> future) tank commitments I'm not sure that I have the time right now to
> provide the necessary care - maybe in the future....so pond is shelved for
> a couple of years and then I'll look at it again....

## Yes, concentrate on that new tank you're getting. That's going to keep
you busy for awhile. I hope you'll put pictures of it up for us.
--
Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastadaisy
~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>

[Gill Passman]

Koi-lo wrote:
>
> "Gill Passman" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>> Koi-lo wrote:
>>
>>> You are wise in doing the research first before making a possible
>>> costly mistake.......
>
> =================
>
>> Our water here is hard with an high pH so not the best for Neons -
>> they generally do OK but are very sensitive to any meds or changes. If
>> it was a species tank I would look at ways of trying to sort this -
>> non-chemical as I can't be bothered with all that brings...the tetra
>> tank is the next project once the biggy gets done.
>
>
> ## Our water here is so hard and alkaline I've given up on any fish
> that prefers water at 7 or below, or if they need soft water. So that
> kind of limits what I can keep and keep healthy. My bettas do ok but
> don't breed well in this water. Most cichilids, goldfish and koi
> thrive in it though. :-) The bigger the tank the harder and more
> expensive it would be to control the PH at something different than
> comes from your tap. Better to work with the PH you have there.
>
>> We went to the LFS today as they have a 30" high 6 foot tank made by
>> the same people. It's the one that hubby wants so I'm just going to
>> have to go with it - who am I to argue? and yep, I do know I'm the one
>> who is going to have to maintain it....30" is stretching it...I did
>> try saying "how about 24"? Look at this tank..." but no
>> shift....actually the potential for growing big plants in the 30" is
>> brilliant (providing the lighting is right) - I have plants in my 18"
>> high tanks that are spreading across the surface as there isn't the
>> height to accomodate them....
>
>
> ## You're still getting a tank anyone would envy!!! The only plants
> planted in the gravel that reach the surface in my 55s are the American
> Vals. They will also tolerate some salt in the water and no fish eats
> or bothers them (except cichlids).
>
>> As for the pond, it's something I'm still mulling over in my head. The
>> problem is location in our garden...one area that has usable space has
>> lots of trees which from my last venture was a definite
>> no,no...another area has something known as a soakaway pipe - a
>> ceramic pipe that takes water away from the house guttering into a
>> drainage hole...in places it is only 18" under the soil so I wouldn't
>> be able to get the necessary depth even if most of the pond was raised
>> (which it would be). The only other location has 3 large clumps of
>> bamboo which would restrict the size and shape of the pond...I'm
>> worried about the roots and I'm not about to dig up the bamboo because
>> it looks great (another passion of mine is the garden).
>
>
> ## We have a lot in common. I'm another garden nut. :-)) Maybe a pond
> just wouldn't do your situation. But you can always put out a few
> drop-cloth lined 150g kiddy pools. I have loads of them going in
> summer. They're hidden behind my house.
> This summers last garden project was putting out a bearded iris bed.
> Not cheap but will be magnificent in a year or two.
>
> Right now my daughter is probably too young to be
>
>> safe around a pond (and I hate the look of the grids that you can buy)
>> so there are a few more years to plan properly. In terms of fish, I
>> wouldn't be allowed by hubby to go anything other than Koi and with my
>> current (and future) tank commitments I'm not sure that I have the
>> time right now to provide the necessary care - maybe in the
>> future....so pond is shelved for a couple of years and then I'll look
>> at it again....
>
>
> ## Yes, concentrate on that new tank you're getting. That's going to
> keep you busy for awhile. I hope you'll put pictures of it up for us.

I am very much a believer in matching the fish to the
conditions....hubby loves Neon Tetras - a price I have to pay for
indulgence of my hobby....I ran an experiment on a 5 gall tank with Red
Sea Plant substrate and a CO2 unit - the difference to pH was
incredible...never got a chance to test the hardness...

right now Kiddy pools tend to get filled with kiddies but might be a
future use...another problem would be the hard frosts that we get and a
need to overwinter the fish in a house already full of tropicals...as I
said it is still an idea I'm mulling over and has to be totally right
before I would even consider implementing it....

Rather than beard irises have you thought about the swamp irises?
Probably you have as you have the ponds....Certain places I've lived I
get great results from the beard irises but they need different
conditions and the tuber needs to be above the soil level...right now I
haven't found the right place in my garden but I'm still trying eveb
though I've grown them successfully in a house about 5 mins walk
away...I've got a small 3 foot bog garden where I have swamp irises
planted...they've been there 3 years now and have only just started to
come into their own...this year they were great but still have a lot
more potential...I also struggle to persuade the dog that the cool green
looking patch isn't quite where he should go for his afternoon nap - lol

Pics will get produced...I just need to get my act together on posting
them on a web-site....some people on this ng have pics of my tanks and I
do of theirs but we tend to post with email addresses that are easy to
work out so we can mail one another direct....

very excited about this tank...get a few funny looks when I say its
going to be purely community rather than marine - but I don't really
care...there are so many tropical fish out there that don't involve the
real extra work that a marine tank would....and my current babies will
really appreciate the extra space :-)

Gill

[NetMax]

"Gill Passman" > wrote in message
...
> Steve wrote:
>> Gill Passman wrote:
<snip>
>>
>> Again regarding maintenance, I guess you'd want a hinging/ removeable
>> front panel in the canopy, so that when you slide it back you can then
>> reach into the tank easily. That's how I built mine, and it works out
>> very well. I would not want to reach into the open top of a canopy
>> frame with removed lights to do maintenance, because it would
>> effectively make the tank deeper - hence the hinging panel suggestion.
>> I think such a panel is pretty standard practice, anyway,

For maximum stand height, with a tape measure check the distance from
your armpit to the floor and subtract the tank's 30" depth. Give
yourself a few extra inches to be able to lean into the tank.

For the canopy, definitely have removable sections, and try for at least
8" clearance. I know what you mean by algae cleaning in the dark. For
feeding, my canopy front hinges. For cleaning, part of the canopy
raises, taking my front 2 bulbs up, but the back two bulbs are attached
to the wall behind the tank. This is on my 48" tank, so a 72" is almost
twice as heavy and akward. Also note the location of the crossbrace into
the canopy design. Keep us informed :o).
--
www.NetMax.tk

>> Your project still sounds like a lot of fun!
>>
>> Steve
>>
>>
> I'm thinking of mulitple hinged panels especially if made of real
> wood...I tried lifting one on a 36" tank they had at the LFS and found
> it very heavy...I'm thinking maybe 3 hinged panels of around 24" length
> each...possibly two at a push.
>
> One of the things that put me off the Rena was the fact that you needed
> to slide the lights before you could even begin any maintenance...I
> usually algae scrape with the lights on as it helps me see better...
>
> Having individual removable components makes a lot of sense....I'll run
> it past the boss....
>
> Thanks
> Gill

[Larry Blanchard]

On Sat, 10 Dec 2005 19:45:02 +0000, Gill Passman wrote:

> As far as lighting is concerned the suspended canopies are out
> apparently...although I did like the one done by Arcadia with the mix of
> halide and flourescent - so it looks like a closed canopy option. The
> canopy is now going to be a home built one so that we can match the wood
> of the cabinet. In terms of the lighting I think I'm pretty much going to
> have to hand this over - as long as I know the options and required amount
> of light hubby is pretty good at this sort of thing - only one or two
> standard lights in our house mainly it's all halogen - the room I'm in
> right now has 11 halogen spotlights....

Enough halogen lighting to light that tank is going to generate a
hellacious amount of heat. You'll have to have exhaust fans running all
the time the light are on. I think I'd go for compact fluorescents with
external ballasts instead.

[Koi-lo]

"Gill Passman" > wrote in message
...
> Koi-lo wrote:
>> ## We have a lot in common. I'm another garden nut. :-)) Maybe a pond
>> just wouldn't do your situation. But you can always put out a few
>> drop-cloth lined 150g kiddy pools. I have loads of them going in
>> summer. They're hidden behind my house.
>> This summers last garden project was putting out a bearded iris bed. Not
>> cheap but will be magnificent in a year or two.
=========
> Rather than beard irises have you thought about the swamp irises? Probably
> you have as you have the ponds...

## Swamp iris don't well outside the ponds here because we don't get much
summer rain. They like damp or soggy soil which would necessitate too much
watering. The bearded iris thrive in the hot dry summer soil. I have a
small bed of yellow swamp iris but they're dying out. Only the ones in the
pond do well.

..Certain places I've lived I
> get great results from the beard irises but they need different conditions
> and the tuber needs to be above the soil level...right now I haven't found
> the right place in my garden but I'm still trying eveb though I've grown
> them successfully in a house about 5 mins walk away...

## I'm not familiar with your climate but do know they like alkaline, well
drained, not too fertile soil. They're also sun lovers. All I add when I
plant them is bone meal and a small handful of Ironite (to green up the
leaves and deepen the color of the flowers). In winter I sprinkle wood
ashes (potash) over the flower beds.....

I've got a small 3 foot bog garden where I have swamp irises
> planted...they've been there 3 years now and have only just started to
> come into their own...this year they were great but still have a lot more
> potential...I also struggle to persuade the dog that the cool green
> looking patch isn't quite where he should go for his afternoon nap - lol
>
> Pics will get produced...I just need to get my act together on posting
> them on a web-site....some people on this ng have pics of my tanks and I
> do of theirs but we tend to post with email addresses that are easy to
> work out so we can mail one another direct....
>
> very excited about this tank...get a few funny looks when I say its going
> to be purely community rather than marine - but I don't really
> care...there are so many tropical fish out there that don't involve the
> real extra work that a marine tank would....and my current babies will
> really appreciate the extra space :-)

## What an exciting endeavor..... I hope you keep us posted as you add fish
and plants to this new tank.
--
Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastadaisy
~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>