Still setting things up

[Samwyse]

I spend all day yesterday with a nasty head cold. The only thing I did
with the aquarium was to set the light on it in the morning and
hand-stir/aerate the water in the evening. According to the hydrometer,
the water temp is finally in the green zone, but the warmth has caused
the salt content to drop a bit. So today I've reattached the RO to my
faucet and will add a few more gallons of water. Today I'm trying
hooking it up to the hot water to try to get a better temperature to
dissolve the salt and not cool the tank.

This could finally get enough water to run the filter, although that's
also going to be complicated. The filter is currently in the big tank,
but none of the plastic or glass covers will fit around it. I think it
needs to go with the upper ten-gallon tank, but I'm not sure how it
hooks up. I've posted more pictures at Flicker, if anyone wants to make
any suggestions. http://www.flickr.com/photos/samwyse/

It looks to me like the upper ten-gallon tank has a simple overflow
system that will send excess water down to the sump tank. According to
my notes, the sump tank gets filled one-third full of water, to run the
protein skimmer, and then the water gets sucked out by the submersible
pump and sent through the wavemaker into the big tank. I'm suppsed to
mark the sump tank's starting water level, and before cycling the water
I'm supposed to add enough distilled water to the system to bring the
level up to the mark (to account for evaporation).

The mystery is how the water gets from the big tank to the upper
ten-gallon tank. Maybe the filter does go with the big tank. I'm so
confused!

[Wayne Sallee]

Don't use hot water. It contains copper.

The salinity will drop if you add water.


Wayne Sallee
Wayne's Pets



Samwyse wrote on 12/13/2005 12:19 PM:
> I spend all day yesterday with a nasty head cold. The only thing I did
> with the aquarium was to set the light on it in the morning and
> hand-stir/aerate the water in the evening. According to the hydrometer,
> the water temp is finally in the green zone, but the warmth has caused
> the salt content to drop a bit. So today I've reattached the RO to my
> faucet and will add a few more gallons of water. Today I'm trying
> hooking it up to the hot water to try to get a better temperature to
> dissolve the salt and not cool the tank.
>
> This could finally get enough water to run the filter, although that's
> also going to be complicated. The filter is currently in the big tank,
> but none of the plastic or glass covers will fit around it. I think it
> needs to go with the upper ten-gallon tank, but I'm not sure how it
> hooks up. I've posted more pictures at Flicker, if anyone wants to make
> any suggestions. http://www.flickr.com/photos/samwyse/
>
> It looks to me like the upper ten-gallon tank has a simple overflow
> system that will send excess water down to the sump tank. According to
> my notes, the sump tank gets filled one-third full of water, to run the
> protein skimmer, and then the water gets sucked out by the submersible
> pump and sent through the wavemaker into the big tank. I'm suppsed to
> mark the sump tank's starting water level, and before cycling the water
> I'm supposed to add enough distilled water to the system to bring the
> level up to the mark (to account for evaporation).
>
> The mystery is how the water gets from the big tank to the upper
> ten-gallon tank. Maybe the filter does go with the big tank. I'm so
> confused!

[Samwyse]

Wayne Sallee wrote:
> Don't use hot water. It contains copper.

Awk! Hopefully, six gallons of hot water blended into over 25 gallons
of cold won't impact things too much. Fortunately, I expect to do a lot
of cycling over the next few days, since there's I expect there was a
big die-off during transport.

And that reminds me. Can I use my existing ammonia tester, which is
labeled for fresh water, or do I have to buy a new one? Yes, I expect I
already know the answer to that question.

> The salinity will drop if you add water.

Every drop of water that I've added is first mixed with a cup of salt in
a brand new two-gallon plastic bucket. I'll only be using straight RO
to replace evaporation losses once everything is fully assembled.

[Wayne Sallee]

Some test kits will work for both salt and fresh. The
label should say for fresh or salt. The cheepy test kits
only work on fresh.

Wayne Sallee
Wayne's Pets



Samwyse wrote on 12/13/2005 1:22 PM:
> Wayne Sallee wrote:
>
>> Don't use hot water. It contains copper.
>
>
> Awk! Hopefully, six gallons of hot water blended into over 25 gallons
> of cold won't impact things too much. Fortunately, I expect to do a lot
> of cycling over the next few days, since there's I expect there was a
> big die-off during transport.
>
> And that reminds me. Can I use my existing ammonia tester, which is
> labeled for fresh water, or do I have to buy a new one? Yes, I expect I
> already know the answer to that question.
>
> > The salinity will drop if you add water.
>
> Every drop of water that I've added is first mixed with a cup of salt in
> a brand new two-gallon plastic bucket. I'll only be using straight RO
> to replace evaporation losses once everything is fully assembled.

[TheRock]

Not only that, but isn't it not recommended to pump hot water through a RO
filter ?
I know mine says cold water only. (Of course mine is RO/DI)
I believe you can ruin the membrane...

"Wayne Sallee" > wrote in message
...
> Don't use hot water. It contains copper.
>
> The salinity will drop if you add water.
>
>
> Wayne Sallee
> Wayne's Pets
>
>
>
> Samwyse wrote on 12/13/2005 12:19 PM:
>> I spend all day yesterday with a nasty head cold. The only thing I did
>> with the aquarium was to set the light on it in the morning and
>> hand-stir/aerate the water in the evening. According to the hydrometer,
>> the water temp is finally in the green zone, but the warmth has caused
>> the salt content to drop a bit. So today I've reattached the RO to my
>> faucet and will add a few more gallons of water. Today I'm trying
>> hooking it up to the hot water to try to get a better temperature to
>> dissolve the salt and not cool the tank.
>>
>> This could finally get enough water to run the filter, although that's
>> also going to be complicated. The filter is currently in the big tank,
>> but none of the plastic or glass covers will fit around it. I think it
>> needs to go with the upper ten-gallon tank, but I'm not sure how it hooks
>> up. I've posted more pictures at Flicker, if anyone wants to make any
>> suggestions. http://www.flickr.com/photos/samwyse/
>>
>> It looks to me like the upper ten-gallon tank has a simple overflow
>> system that will send excess water down to the sump tank. According to
>> my notes, the sump tank gets filled one-third full of water, to run the
>> protein skimmer, and then the water gets sucked out by the submersible
>> pump and sent through the wavemaker into the big tank. I'm suppsed to
>> mark the sump tank's starting water level, and before cycling the water
>> I'm supposed to add enough distilled water to the system to bring the
>> level up to the mark (to account for evaporation).
>>
>> The mystery is how the water gets from the big tank to the upper
>> ten-gallon tank. Maybe the filter does go with the big tank. I'm so
>> confused!

[Samwyse]

TheRock wrote:
> Not only that, but isn't it not recommended to pump hot water through a RO
> filter ?
> I know mine says cold water only. (Of course mine is RO/DI)
> I believe you can ruin the membrane...

Mine didn't come with directions. :-) I did worry about that, but by
the time the water got through the long tiny hose to the unit, it felt
like it was only about body temp. After each bucket-full, I also shut
things down until the copper pipes were room-temperature again.

I've been following the "New System Setup and Install today..." thread
with interest, since this tank uses an external overflow. I've got the
sump set up and water is flowing, but I'm not using the third tank since
I don't have the pipes glued back together yet. Instead, the hoses
from the syphon go straight to the sump, which I've covered in plastic
wrap. The water splashes out of the hose and falls about an inch, which
I'm hoping will aerate it. I've only turned on the skimmer long enough
to fill it with water; it kept trying to float away as I filled the sump
tank. Once again, there are pics at Flickr if anyone wants to tell me
if the sump's water level looks right.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/samwyse/

[Hawk-I]

Water level looks ok
Things to look for in your plumbing in the main tank
your return line in the tank should have a hole drilled
in it just below the water line this will help in keeping
the sump from overflowing due to a power outage and back
siphoning. As far as the noise put your outlet pipe
under the water in the sump you may also want to cut or
drill a few holes in that pipe above the water line of the
submerged line in the sump this will help in releasing
trapped air in the output line so you will not get a bubbling
noise the skimmer will air rate your
water more than enough a Very good idea for over flow
noise is to use a stand pipe http://www.dursostandpipes.com/
there is a verity of plans for internal and external
overflow box's and they both work very well

Samwyse wrote:
> TheRock wrote:
>
>> Not only that, but isn't it not recommended to pump hot water through
>> a RO filter ?
>> I know mine says cold water only. (Of course mine is RO/DI)
>> I believe you can ruin the membrane...
>
>
> Mine didn't come with directions. :-) I did worry about that, but by
> the time the water got through the long tiny hose to the unit, it felt
> like it was only about body temp. After each bucket-full, I also shut
> things down until the copper pipes were room-temperature again.
>
> I've been following the "New System Setup and Install today..." thread
> with interest, since this tank uses an external overflow. I've got the
> sump set up and water is flowing, but I'm not using the third tank since
> I don't have the pipes glued back together yet. Instead, the hoses
> from the syphon go straight to the sump, which I've covered in plastic
> wrap. The water splashes out of the hose and falls about an inch, which
> I'm hoping will aerate it. I've only turned on the skimmer long enough
> to fill it with water; it kept trying to float away as I filled the sump
> tank. Once again, there are pics at Flickr if anyone wants to tell me
> if the sump's water level looks right.
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/samwyse/

[volux]

> Don't use hot water. It contains copper.

i didnt know this ..... . how does that happen ?

"Wayne Sallee" > wrote in message
...
> Don't use hot water. It contains copper.
>
> The salinity will drop if you add water.
>
>
> Wayne Sallee
> Wayne's Pets
>
>
>
> Samwyse wrote on 12/13/2005 12:19 PM:
> > I spend all day yesterday with a nasty head cold. The only thing I did
> > with the aquarium was to set the light on it in the morning and
> > hand-stir/aerate the water in the evening. According to the hydrometer,
> > the water temp is finally in the green zone, but the warmth has caused
> > the salt content to drop a bit. So today I've reattached the RO to my
> > faucet and will add a few more gallons of water. Today I'm trying
> > hooking it up to the hot water to try to get a better temperature to
> > dissolve the salt and not cool the tank.
> >
> > This could finally get enough water to run the filter, although that's
> > also going to be complicated. The filter is currently in the big tank,
> > but none of the plastic or glass covers will fit around it. I think it
> > needs to go with the upper ten-gallon tank, but I'm not sure how it
> > hooks up. I've posted more pictures at Flicker, if anyone wants to make
> > any suggestions. http://www.flickr.com/photos/samwyse/
> >
> > It looks to me like the upper ten-gallon tank has a simple overflow
> > system that will send excess water down to the sump tank. According to
> > my notes, the sump tank gets filled one-third full of water, to run the
> > protein skimmer, and then the water gets sucked out by the submersible
> > pump and sent through the wavemaker into the big tank. I'm suppsed to
> > mark the sump tank's starting water level, and before cycling the water
> > I'm supposed to add enough distilled water to the system to bring the
> > level up to the mark (to account for evaporation).
> >
> > The mystery is how the water gets from the big tank to the upper
> > ten-gallon tank. Maybe the filter does go with the big tank. I'm so
> > confused!

[Charles Spitzer]

it gets cycled through your hot water heater. of course, if you have copper
pipes, it would be in your cold water too.

what he's really saying is that you should not use tap water to set up your
reef tank.

"volux" > wrote in message
...
>> Don't use hot water. It contains copper.
>
> i didnt know this ..... . how does that happen ?
>
> "Wayne Sallee" > wrote in message
> ...
>> Don't use hot water. It contains copper.
>>
>> The salinity will drop if you add water.
>>
>>
>> Wayne Sallee
>> Wayne's Pets
>>
>>
>>
>> Samwyse wrote on 12/13/2005 12:19 PM:
>> > I spend all day yesterday with a nasty head cold. The only thing I did
>> > with the aquarium was to set the light on it in the morning and
>> > hand-stir/aerate the water in the evening. According to the
>> > hydrometer,
>> > the water temp is finally in the green zone, but the warmth has caused
>> > the salt content to drop a bit. So today I've reattached the RO to my
>> > faucet and will add a few more gallons of water. Today I'm trying
>> > hooking it up to the hot water to try to get a better temperature to
>> > dissolve the salt and not cool the tank.
>> >
>> > This could finally get enough water to run the filter, although that's
>> > also going to be complicated. The filter is currently in the big tank,
>> > but none of the plastic or glass covers will fit around it. I think it
>> > needs to go with the upper ten-gallon tank, but I'm not sure how it
>> > hooks up. I've posted more pictures at Flicker, if anyone wants to
>> > make
>> > any suggestions. http://www.flickr.com/photos/samwyse/
>> >
>> > It looks to me like the upper ten-gallon tank has a simple overflow
>> > system that will send excess water down to the sump tank. According to
>> > my notes, the sump tank gets filled one-third full of water, to run the
>> > protein skimmer, and then the water gets sucked out by the submersible
>> > pump and sent through the wavemaker into the big tank. I'm suppsed to
>> > mark the sump tank's starting water level, and before cycling the water
>> > I'm supposed to add enough distilled water to the system to bring the
>> > level up to the mark (to account for evaporation).
>> >
>> > The mystery is how the water gets from the big tank to the upper
>> > ten-gallon tank. Maybe the filter does go with the big tank. I'm so
>> > confused!
>
>

[Wayne Sallee]

From the water passing over the hot copper coils in the
hot water heater.

Wayne Sallee
Wayne's Pets



volux wrote on 12/15/2005 3:39 PM:
>>Don't use hot water. It contains copper.
>
>
> i didnt know this ..... . how does that happen ?
>
> "Wayne Sallee" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>Don't use hot water. It contains copper.
>>
>>The salinity will drop if you add water.
>>
>>
>>Wayne Sallee
>>Wayne's Pets

>>
>>
>>Samwyse wrote on 12/13/2005 12:19 PM:
>>
>>>I spend all day yesterday with a nasty head cold. The only thing I did
>>>with the aquarium was to set the light on it in the morning and
>>>hand-stir/aerate the water in the evening. According to the hydrometer,
>>>the water temp is finally in the green zone, but the warmth has caused
>>>the salt content to drop a bit. So today I've reattached the RO to my
>>>faucet and will add a few more gallons of water. Today I'm trying
>>>hooking it up to the hot water to try to get a better temperature to
>>>dissolve the salt and not cool the tank.
>>>
>>>This could finally get enough water to run the filter, although that's
>>>also going to be complicated. The filter is currently in the big tank,
>>>but none of the plastic or glass covers will fit around it. I think it
>>>needs to go with the upper ten-gallon tank, but I'm not sure how it
>>>hooks up. I've posted more pictures at Flicker, if anyone wants to make
>>>any suggestions. http://www.flickr.com/photos/samwyse/
>>>
>>>It looks to me like the upper ten-gallon tank has a simple overflow
>>>system that will send excess water down to the sump tank. According to
>>>my notes, the sump tank gets filled one-third full of water, to run the
>>>protein skimmer, and then the water gets sucked out by the submersible
>>>pump and sent through the wavemaker into the big tank. I'm suppsed to
>>>mark the sump tank's starting water level, and before cycling the water
>>>I'm supposed to add enough distilled water to the system to bring the
>>>level up to the mark (to account for evaporation).
>>>
>>>The mystery is how the water gets from the big tank to the upper
>>>ten-gallon tank. Maybe the filter does go with the big tank. I'm so
>>>confused!
>
>
>

[George Patterson]

Wayne Sallee wrote:
> From the water passing over the hot copper coils in the hot water heater.

Which aren't there in a gas heater.

George Patterson
Coffee is only a way of stealing time that should by rights belong to
your slightly older self.

[Wayne Sallee]

Does a gass heater not use coper anyhere inside?
Have you taken one apart and looked at it?

Wayne Sallee
Wayne's Pets



George Patterson wrote on 12/15/2005 10:04 PM:
> Wayne Sallee wrote:
>
>> From the water passing over the hot copper coils in the hot water
>> heater.
>
>
> Which aren't there in a gas heater.
>
> George Patterson
> Coffee is only a way of stealing time that should by rights belong to
> your slightly older self.

[George Patterson]

Wayne Sallee wrote:
> Does a gass heater not use coper anyhere inside?

Not usually.

> Have you taken one apart and looked at it?

Yes. Also take a look at
http://www.howstuffworks.com/water-heater.htm

George Patterson
Coffee is only a way of stealing time that should by rights belong to
your slightly older self.

[Samwyse]

George Patterson wrote:
> Wayne Sallee wrote:
>
>> Does a gass heater not use coper anyhere inside?
>
> Not usually.

Well, that's good news, since I have gas heat. OTOH, I would imagine
that hot water in copper pipes would pick up a bit more copper than cold
water would, so I'll stay away from it in the future.

Again, thanks to everyone for the help.

[Samwyse]

Hawk-I wrote:
> Water level looks ok
> Things to look for in your plumbing in the main tank
> your return line in the tank should have a hole drilled
> in it just below the water line this will help in keeping
> the sump from overflowing due to a power outage and back
> siphoning.

Thanks for the info. The only return line feeds the wave maker, so any
back siphoning won't last too long.

> As far as the noise put your outlet pipe
> under the water in the sump you may also want to cut or
> drill a few holes in that pipe above the water line of the
> submerged line in the sump this will help in releasing
> trapped air in the output line so you will not get a bubbling
> noise the skimmer will air rate your
> water more than enough

I've turned on the skimmer, but I'll need to either put a bit more water
in the sump, or lift the whole thing up a couple of inches, if I want to
submerge the outlet. The good news is, it's in the basement as far from
the bedrooms as it could possibly be.

> a Very good idea for over flow
> noise is to use a stand pipe http://www.dursostandpipes.com/
> there is a verity of plans for internal and external
> overflow box's and they both work very well

"Ken Stockman's Standpipe Implementation" looks very interesting. I'll
keep it in mind. Thanks!

[Wayne Sallee]

Cool. I'll keep that in mind, next time I'm in the market
for a hot water heater.

Wayne Sallee
Wayne's Pets



George Patterson wrote on 12/16/2005 10:10 PM:
> Wayne Sallee wrote:
>
>> Does a gass heater not use coper anyhere inside?
>
>
> Not usually.
>
>> Have you taken one apart and looked at it?
>
>
> Yes. Also take a look at
> http://www.howstuffworks.com/water-heater.htm
>
> George Patterson
> Coffee is only a way of stealing time that should by rights belong to
> your slightly older self.

[George Patterson]

Samwyse wrote:

> Well, that's good news, since I have gas heat. OTOH, I would imagine
> that hot water in copper pipes would pick up a bit more copper than cold
> water would, so I'll stay away from it in the future.

If you have copper plumbing, run the water for a few minutes to clear the pipes
out. This applies to either cold or hot. With a house plumbed before about 1980,
you also will get very slight traces of lead from the solder joints. Running the
water a bit before using it clears that out too.

George Patterson
Coffee is only a way of stealing time that should by rights belong to
your slightly older self.

[Cindy]

George Patterson wrote:
> Samwyse wrote:
>
>> Well, that's good news, since I have gas heat. OTOH, I would imagine
>> that hot water in copper pipes would pick up a bit more copper than
>> cold water would, so I'll stay away from it in the future.
>
> If you have copper plumbing, run the water for a few minutes to clear
> the pipes out. This applies to either cold or hot. With a house
> plumbed before about 1980, you also will get very slight traces of
> lead from the solder joints. Running the water a bit before using it
> clears that out too.

My mom's farmhouse was built in probably the 30's? I don't know for sure,
but those old pipes have been there a lonnnnng time, and her water tastes
terrible. She gets irritated at me because I run so much down the drain to
get a drink of water.

[Samwyse]

Cindy wrote:
> My mom's farmhouse was built in probably the 30's? I don't know for sure,
> but those old pipes have been there a lonnnnng time, and her water tastes
> terrible. She gets irritated at me because I run so much down the drain to
> get a drink of water.

My "country estate" (see my Flickr photos) got indoor plumbing in the
'60s. The water's from a well, and it has a *lot* of hydrogen sulfide
dissolved in it. We run a lot of water to clear the pipes whenever we
first arrive, but never really get rid of the smell.

[Wayne Sallee]

The hydrogen sulfide is toxic, but one good thing about
it, is that it does gass out, when left in an open or
loosley covered container.

Wayne Sallee
Wayne's Pets



Samwyse wrote on 12/17/2005 7:02 PM:
> Cindy wrote:
>
>> My mom's farmhouse was built in probably the 30's? I don't know for
>> sure, but those old pipes have been there a lonnnnng time, and her
>> water tastes terrible. She gets irritated at me because I run so much
>> down the drain to get a drink of water.
>
>
> My "country estate" (see my Flickr photos) got indoor plumbing in the
> '60s. The water's from a well, and it has a *lot* of hydrogen sulfide
> dissolved in it. We run a lot of water to clear the pipes whenever we
> first arrive, but never really get rid of the smell.

[George Patterson]

Cindy wrote:

> My mom's farmhouse was built in probably the 30's?

Plumbing during that period was usually galvanized iron pipe for cheaper houses.
A rural farmhouse would probably have that. Usually this stuff begins to clog up
and rust out about 40 years after installation. Symptoms are reduced water flow
and brown sediment.

If that's what she has, run a glass of water straight out of the tap and let it
sit overnight. Then show her the stuff that settles out in the bottom of the
glass. If she doesn't run the water a bit first like you do, she's drinking that
stuff.

George Patterson
Coffee is only a way of stealing time that should by rights belong to
your slightly older self.

[Cindy]

George Patterson wrote:
> Cindy wrote:
>
>> My mom's farmhouse was built in probably the 30's?
>
> Plumbing during that period was usually galvanized iron pipe for
> cheaper houses. A rural farmhouse would probably have that. Usually
> this stuff begins to clog up and rust out about 40 years after
> installation. Symptoms are reduced water flow and brown sediment.
>
> If that's what she has, run a glass of water straight out of the tap
> and let it sit overnight. Then show her the stuff that settles out in
> the bottom of the glass. If she doesn't run the water a bit first
> like you do, she's drinking that stuff.

She finally bought one of those Brita filter pitchers. I figure that at
least helps. I just hope there's no lead pipe down there. Did they ever
use lead pipe?

[Samwyse]

Cindy wrote:
> She finally bought one of those Brita filter pitchers. I figure that at
> least helps. I just hope there's no lead pipe down there. Did they ever
> use lead pipe?

I believe that lead pipes finally fell into disuse in the 19th Century,
so a home built after 1900 is probably OK. I have seen what looked like
lead drain pipes in US homes built in the 1880s, although all the other
plumbing was PVC. Supposedly, lead water mains built by the Romans are
still in use in many parts of Europe.

An interesting history of lead poisoning in general can be here:
http://www.epa.gov/history/topics/perspect/lead.htm

[Samwyse]

Samwyse wrote:
> Cindy wrote:
>
>> She finally bought one of those Brita filter pitchers. I figure that
>> at least helps. I just hope there's no lead pipe down there. Did
>> they ever use lead pipe?
>
> I believe that lead pipes finally fell into disuse in the 19th Century,
> so a home built after 1900 is probably OK. I have seen what looked like
> lead drain pipes in US homes built in the 1880s, although all the other
> plumbing was PVC. Supposedly, lead water mains built by the Romans are
> still in use in many parts of Europe.
>
> An interesting history of lead poisoning in general can be here:
> http://www.epa.gov/history/topics/perspect/lead.htm

OTOH, I just found this note: "it was not until the 1930s that states
began passing laws regulating the amount of lead present in plumbing and
water distribution systems, and it was not until 1986 that Congress
banned the use of lead-based solder in plumbing"
http://www.cpe.uchicago.edu/publication/lib/troesken-lead2.pdf

The same paper says that lead water mains are in use in many major
American cities, but natural oxidation is, over time, supposed to
provide a coating on the lead that keeps it out of the water. 15 parts
per billion (ppb) is the EPA's limit for drinking water, and it's pretty
vigorously enforced, so I guess it works. If you're worried, I'd say go
ahead and get the water tested.