My plants need help...help!

[Larry]

I need peoples' experience here otherwise it may take me millions of
test kits, thousands of possible unnecessary water changes and all
that neat stuff to turn my plants a healthier green.

I have a 26g fully planted gravel bottom tank. 56w high output light
and a diy CO2 dispenser. I do weekly water changes and feed my fish
only once a day. Clean my Eheim canister out every month or two.

Trouble is my swords are turning black.
Too high nitrates? Excess phosphates? Potassium deficiency?

TIA

Larry

[Daniel Morrow]

Bottom posted.

--
You can find my public key at https://keyserver1.pgp.com
"Larry" > wrote in message
...
> I need peoples' experience here otherwise it may take me millions of
> test kits, thousands of possible unnecessary water changes and all
> that neat stuff to turn my plants a healthier green.
>
> I have a 26g fully planted gravel bottom tank. 56w high output light
> and a diy CO2 dispenser. I do weekly water changes and feed my fish
> only once a day. Clean my Eheim canister out every month or two.
>
> Trouble is my swords are turning black.
> Too high nitrates? Excess phosphates? Potassium deficiency?
>
> TIA
>
> Larry
>

I am no plant expert - but I would recommend you try asking for help for
your situation at rec.aquaria.freshwater.plants as they're a lot of experts
there, even the great tom bar makes an appearance once in a while. Good luck
and later!

[default]

Larry, Same thing happened in my 20g tank with mostly swords planted
in onyx sand. I use a 36 watt fixture and dose a bit of excell as well
as a potion of home brew stuff ala Tom Barr. After about a month, the
swords were nearly overcome with black algae. It was easy to rub off
the leaves. That stage lasted for a few months and now the tank is
relatively algae free. I'm not so sure the black stuff wasn't a
diatom, and not algae. It acted more like the brown diatom slime than
true algae.

steve

Larry wrote:
> I need peoples' experience here otherwise it may take me millions of
> test kits, thousands of possible unnecessary water changes and all
> that neat stuff to turn my plants a healthier green.
>
> I have a 26g fully planted gravel bottom tank. 56w high output light
> and a diy CO2 dispenser. I do weekly water changes and feed my fish
> only once a day. Clean my Eheim canister out every month or two.
>
> Trouble is my swords are turning black.
> Too high nitrates? Excess phosphates? Potassium deficiency?
>
> TIA
>
> Larry

[Larry]

On 21 Dec 2005 07:17:23 -0800, "default" >
wrote:

>Larry, Same thing happened in my 20g tank with mostly swords planted
>in onyx sand. I use a 36 watt fixture and dose a bit of excell as well
>as a potion of home brew stuff ala Tom Barr. After about a month, the
>swords were nearly overcome with black algae. It was easy to rub off
>the leaves. That stage lasted for a few months and now the tank is
>relatively algae free. I'm not so sure the black stuff wasn't a
>diatom, and not algae. It acted more like the brown diatom slime than
>true algae.

Hi Steve,

That's what I needed, someone who had the same problem. Silly me. I
thought the plants were dying. I will go downstairs and see if it
comes off. If so then yippeeeee! Tested for phosphates and it was
2.0.

I think that's a bit high but not sure. Web sites say keep it to
..1ppm

Anyone know if 2.0 on the card means 2.0 ppm or 2 mg/L. Stupid
colour card!! ;-)

If it means 2 ppm then I'm way over.

Larry

[Steve]

Larry wrote:
Tested for phosphates and it was
> 2.0.
>
> I think that's a bit high but not sure. Web sites say keep it to
> .1ppm
>
> Anyone know if 2.0 on the card means 2.0 ppm or 2 mg/L. Stupid
> colour card!! ;-)
>
> If it means 2 ppm then I'm way over.
>
> Larry

As far as I know, 2ppm and 2 mg/l is the same thing.
(other) Steve

[Dr Engelbert Buxbaum]

Larry wrote:

> Tested for phosphates and it was 2.0.
>
> I think that's a bit high but not sure. Web sites say keep it to
> ..1ppm
>
> Anyone know if 2.0 on the card means 2.0 ppm or 2 mg/L. Stupid
> colour card!! ;-)

ppm means part per million. 1 l of water is about 1,000 g or 1,000,000
mg, thus 1 mg/l is equivalent to 1 ppm.

2 ppm phosphate is really high and may result in algae problems. What is
the PO4 conc in your tap water? If it's also high (often together with
high nitrate from agricultural run off) then you may want to pass the
water over an anion exchanger (chloride-form) before using it for water
changes.

[Larry]

On Wed, 28 Dec 2005 10:59:01 +0100, Dr Engelbert Buxbaum
> wrote:

>Larry wrote:
>
>> Tested for phosphates and it was 2.0.
>>
>> I think that's a bit high but not sure. Web sites say keep it to
>> ..1ppm
>>
>> Anyone know if 2.0 on the card means 2.0 ppm or 2 mg/L. Stupid
>> colour card!! ;-)
>
>ppm means part per million. 1 l of water is about 1,000 g or 1,000,000
>mg, thus 1 mg/l is equivalent to 1 ppm.
>
>2 ppm phosphate is really high and may result in algae problems. What is
>the PO4 conc in your tap water? If it's also high (often together with
>high nitrate from agricultural run off) then you may want to pass the
>water over an anion exchanger (chloride-form) before using it for water
>changes.


PO4 in tap water is about .5. I do have algae. Not a big problem yet
but I know it could get out of hand. I don't know what a anion
exchanger (chloride-form) is and google didn't seem to help. Is it a
piece of hardware that I could buy? Secondly are there any chemicals
I could buy to put in the water prior to water changes. Would be nice
to get it lower or eliminate it before it goes in.

Larry

[Elaine T]

Larry wrote:
> On Wed, 28 Dec 2005 10:59:01 +0100, Dr Engelbert Buxbaum
> > wrote:
>
>
>>Larry wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Tested for phosphates and it was 2.0.
>>>
>>>I think that's a bit high but not sure. Web sites say keep it to
>>>..1ppm
>>>
>>>Anyone know if 2.0 on the card means 2.0 ppm or 2 mg/L. Stupid
>>>colour card!! ;-)
>>
>>ppm means part per million. 1 l of water is about 1,000 g or 1,000,000
>>mg, thus 1 mg/l is equivalent to 1 ppm.
>>
>>2 ppm phosphate is really high and may result in algae problems. What is
>>the PO4 conc in your tap water? If it's also high (often together with
>>high nitrate from agricultural run off) then you may want to pass the
>>water over an anion exchanger (chloride-form) before using it for water
>>changes.
>
>
>
> PO4 in tap water is about .5. I do have algae. Not a big problem yet
> but I know it could get out of hand. I don't know what a anion
> exchanger (chloride-form) is and google didn't seem to help. Is it a
> piece of hardware that I could buy? Secondly are there any chemicals
> I could buy to put in the water prior to water changes. Would be nice
> to get it lower or eliminate it before it goes in.
>
> Larry

Contrary to the findings of Horst and Kipper, more and more aquarists
are showing that high phosphate alone does not cause algae. In
agreement with this observation, my pond was running at 2 ppm phosphate
this summer (probably leaching from fertilizer spikes) and had no
problem algae at all. It is in direct sunlight for much of the day.

If you're getting black brush algae, you probably have too little CO2
and possibly too little nitrate. Tom Barr has also shown that excess
iron and/or trace ammonia will contribute to algae blooms much more than
phosphate. So, check iron, CO2 levels, and nitrate levels relative to
your phosphate. Since you're using DIY, I suspect the main problem is
CO2 levels.

--
Elaine T __
http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><
rec.aquaria.* FAQ http://faq.thekrib.com

[Dr Engelbert Buxbaum]

Larry wrote:


> PO4 in tap water is about .5. I do have algae. Not a big problem yet
> but I know it could get out of hand. I don't know what a anion
> exchanger (chloride-form) is and google didn't seem to help. Is it a
> piece of hardware that I could buy? Secondly are there any chemicals
> I could buy to put in the water prior to water changes.

Ion exchanges have charged groups covalently bound to a solid support
(nowadays plastic like polystyrol). They come in two varieties, either
the bound groups have a positive charge (and bind negatively charged
ions, i.e. anions) or they have a negative charge and bind positively
charged ions (cations). The use of ion exchangers for water purification
has been known for a long time, first mentioned in the Bible (Exodus
15:23-25; binding of bitter tasting Mg ions to a cation exchanger made
from wood exposed to white rot).

For your purpose you need an anion exchanger, with covalently bound
groups carrying a positive charge. Since charges need to be balanced,
these resins will contain a stoichiometric amount of negative groups,
i.e. chloride ions. When you pass your water over them, some of the
chloride ions will leave and be replaced with phosphate ions. After a
while, when most of the chloride has been replaced, the ion exchanger is
regenerated by placing it into a concentrated solution of salt (sodium
chloride), where the bound phosphate is released in exchange for
chloride ions. This cycle can be repeated many times. You can either put
the ion exchanger into the filter of your tank, or pre-treat the water
you use for water changes.

The most extreme form of purification by ion exchangers is
demineralisation: The water is in turn passed over anion exchanger in
the hydroxy-form and cation exchanger in the proton form. Protons
(hydrogen ions) and hydroxyde ions combine to form water, hence all ions
are removed from the water.

Since your tab water has 0.5, but your tank 2 ppm of phosphate, I'd
suggest more frequent partial water changes and/or limited feeding to
reduce the phosphate concentration. Growing plants also absorb phosphate
as a nutrient (fertilizer).