Clown Loaches (Not acting normally?)

[JeffinMississippi]

So I put these Clown Loaches in the tank 2 days ago, 3 of them, to eat the
snails. I was told per my previous posts to use three because they like the
company of other Loaches and that they would eat the snails. Per the
Petsmart instructions I am feeding them dried shrimp. So far they dont seem
to be very active, they found tier holes inside of a few different pieces of
tank decoration (Shells) and they pretty much stay there doing nothing. They
definitly arent eating the snails and they just lay around doing nothing and
dont interact at all.

I have a 20 gallon tank with 18 fish (8 of them are Neon Tetras), Gouramis,
3 Molly's, the Clown Loaches and others. The tanks strip readings are all in
the normal range and the other fish are VERY active. Tank water temp is 81
degrees F.

[Dick]

On Wed, 28 Dec 2005 14:17:08 GMT, "JeffinMississippi"
> wrote:

>So I put these Clown Loaches in the tank 2 days ago, 3 of them, to eat the
>snails. I was told per my previous posts to use three because they like the
>company of other Loaches and that they would eat the snails. Per the
>Petsmart instructions I am feeding them dried shrimp. So far they dont seem
>to be very active, they found tier holes inside of a few different pieces of
>tank decoration (Shells) and they pretty much stay there doing nothing. They
>definitly arent eating the snails and they just lay around doing nothing and
>dont interact at all.
>
>I have a 20 gallon tank with 18 fish (8 of them are Neon Tetras), Gouramis,
>3 Molly's, the Clown Loaches and others. The tanks strip readings are all in
>the normal range and the other fish are VERY active. Tank water temp is 81
>degrees F.
>

I have about 12 Clowns in 3 tanks. Their behavior is different in the
different tanks. Their behavior has also changed over the last 2 1/2
years. My tanks are kept at about 77F.

I have 2 Clowns in a 10 gallon tank. One rarely leaves a large
ornament. Its companion is out much more often.

None of the tanks that have Clowns have any snails. Over the years
none have survived. However, given the special diet you offer of
dried shrimp, why should they eat snails? I would stop the special
feeding for awhile. Don't worry, they will survive and maybe the
snails won't. <g>

BTW, how big/old are the Clowns?

dick

[JeffinMississippi]

"Dick" > wrote in message
...
> On Wed, 28 Dec 2005 14:17:08 GMT, "JeffinMississippi"
> > wrote:
>
> >So I put these Clown Loaches in the tank 2 days ago, 3 of them, to eat
the
> >snails. I was told per my previous posts to use three because they like
the
> >company of other Loaches and that they would eat the snails. Per the
> >Petsmart instructions I am feeding them dried shrimp. So far they dont
seem
> >to be very active, they found tier holes inside of a few different pieces
of
> >tank decoration (Shells) and they pretty much stay there doing nothing.
They
> >definitly arent eating the snails and they just lay around doing nothing
and
> >dont interact at all.
> >
> >I have a 20 gallon tank with 18 fish (8 of them are Neon Tetras),
Gouramis,
> >3 Molly's, the Clown Loaches and others. The tanks strip readings are all
in
> >the normal range and the other fish are VERY active. Tank water temp is
81
> >degrees F.
> >
>
> I have about 12 Clowns in 3 tanks. Their behavior is different in the
> different tanks. Their behavior has also changed over the last 2 1/2
> years. My tanks are kept at about 77F.
>
> I have 2 Clowns in a 10 gallon tank. One rarely leaves a large
> ornament. Its companion is out much more often.
>
> None of the tanks that have Clowns have any snails. Over the years
> none have survived. However, given the special diet you offer of
> dried shrimp, why should they eat snails? I would stop the special
> feeding for awhile. Don't worry, they will survive and maybe the
> snails won't. <g>
>
> BTW, how big/old are the Clowns?
>

They are about 2 inches long and I just got them 3 days ago, dont know how
old. But from reading see they can live for 50 years.

[NetMax]

"JeffinMississippi" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Dick" > wrote in message
> ...
>> On Wed, 28 Dec 2005 14:17:08 GMT, "JeffinMississippi"
>> > wrote:
>>
>> >So I put these Clown Loaches in the tank 2 days ago, 3 of them, to
>> >eat
> the
>> >snails. I was told per my previous posts to use three because they
>> >like
> the
>> >company of other Loaches and that they would eat the snails. Per the
>> >Petsmart instructions I am feeding them dried shrimp. So far they
>> >dont
> seem
>> >to be very active, they found tier holes inside of a few different
>> >pieces
> of
>> >tank decoration (Shells) and they pretty much stay there doing
>> >nothing.
> They
>> >definitly arent eating the snails and they just lay around doing
>> >nothing
> and
>> >dont interact at all.
>> >
>> >I have a 20 gallon tank with 18 fish (8 of them are Neon Tetras),
> Gouramis,
>> >3 Molly's, the Clown Loaches and others. The tanks strip readings are
>> >all
> in
>> >the normal range and the other fish are VERY active. Tank water temp
>> >is
> 81
>> >degrees F.
>> >
>>
>> I have about 12 Clowns in 3 tanks. Their behavior is different in the
>> different tanks. Their behavior has also changed over the last 2 1/2
>> years. My tanks are kept at about 77F.
>>
>> I have 2 Clowns in a 10 gallon tank. One rarely leaves a large
>> ornament. Its companion is out much more often.
>>
>> None of the tanks that have Clowns have any snails. Over the years
>> none have survived. However, given the special diet you offer of
>> dried shrimp, why should they eat snails? I would stop the special
>> feeding for awhile. Don't worry, they will survive and maybe the
>> snails won't. <g>
>>
>> BTW, how big/old are the Clowns?
>>
>
> They are about 2 inches long and I just got them 3 days ago, dont know
> how
> old. But from reading see they can live for 50 years.


I agree with Dick. First off, they are still acclimating, so their
behaviour for several days will probably not be typical. This applies to
almost all fish (except large predators who need to quickly establish
themselves). After that, their behaviour depends on the environment they
came from (dark, light, sheltered, crowded ? etc), and the environment
they are in now (exposed, strange fish, shadows, brightness? etc), and
Clowns are not particularly predictable anyways. You might find that
whatever your trio does, they do in 2 groups as one becomes a loner.

Part of what makes this hobby interesting (and frustrating) is a certain
amount of unpredictability.
--
www.NetMax.tk

[Marco Schwarz]

Hi..

> So I put these Clown Loaches in the tank 2 days ago, 3 of
> them, to eat the snails.
> I have a 20 gallon tank with 18 fish (8 of them are Neon
> Tetras), Gouramis, 3 Molly's, the Clown Loaches and
> others.

Sorry, personally I would _never_ recommend keeping Clown
Loaches in such a small tank. Do you possibly have any
other (bigger) aquarium?
20g tank:
Substract glas, gravel, roots, stones eventually filter
volume and look what's finally netto..

--
cu
Marco

[Billy]

I will toss in my 2 pennies in agreement with the others. Give the
fish a few days to become accustomed to the tank before you worry
about them behaviorally. Also, since clowns eventually reach a foot
long or more, your 20 gal tank is no more than a temporary home, and
with the other fish in that tank, it's already pretty overstocked in
my opinion. Test your water frequently and watch for trouble.

billy

--
¼á
"JeffinMississippi" > wrote in message
...
> So I put these Clown Loaches in the tank 2 days ago, 3 of them, to
> eat the
> snails. I was told per my previous posts to use three because they
> like the
> company of other Loaches and that they would eat the snails. Per
> the
> Petsmart instructions I am feeding them dried shrimp. So far they
> dont seem
> to be very active, they found tier holes inside of a few different
> pieces of
> tank decoration (Shells) and they pretty much stay there doing
> nothing. They
> definitly arent eating the snails and they just lay around doing
> nothing and
> dont interact at all.
>
> I have a 20 gallon tank with 18 fish (8 of them are Neon Tetras),
> Gouramis,
> 3 Molly's, the Clown Loaches and others. The tanks strip readings
> are all in
> the normal range and the other fish are VERY active. Tank water
> temp is 81
> degrees F.
>
>

[Jeff]

"Billy" > wrote in message
. ..
>I will toss in my 2 pennies in agreement with the others. Give the fish a
>few days to become accustomed to the tank before you worry about them
>behaviorally. Also, since clowns eventually reach a foot long or more, your
>20 gal tank is no more than a temporary home, and with the other fish in
>that tank, it's already pretty overstocked in my opinion. Test your water
>frequently and watch for trouble.
>
> billy

I definitly agree it looks overstocked. But on one of my previous
posts/questions I was told 1 fish per gallon of water. I figured the Neon
Tetras being so small wouldnt be a problem. I already knew about the
Loaches, temporary. It was suggested in this group that I put the loaches in
the tank, let them clean up the snails and possibly the fish store would buy
them back or I could sell them.

[Fishman]

1 fish per gallon of water?!

I don't know who told you that, but I wouldn't take it. What kind of fish?
1 adult Oscar in 1 gallon of water? What about an Arawana, Bala Shark?
Tetra's may be a different story, but still...

Fishman

"Jeff" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Billy" > wrote in message
> . ..
> >I will toss in my 2 pennies in agreement with the others. Give the fish a
> >few days to become accustomed to the tank before you worry about them
> >behaviorally. Also, since clowns eventually reach a foot long or more,
your
> >20 gal tank is no more than a temporary home, and with the other fish in
> >that tank, it's already pretty overstocked in my opinion. Test your water
> >frequently and watch for trouble.
> >
> > billy
>
> I definitly agree it looks overstocked. But on one of my previous
> posts/questions I was told 1 fish per gallon of water. I figured the Neon
> Tetras being so small wouldnt be a problem. I already knew about the
> Loaches, temporary. It was suggested in this group that I put the loaches
in
> the tank, let them clean up the snails and possibly the fish store would
buy
> them back or I could sell them.
>
>

[Dan Abel]

In article >,
"Jeff" > wrote:


> I definitly agree it looks overstocked. But on one of my previous
> posts/questions I was told 1 fish per gallon of water. I figured the Neon

No, that's one *inch* of fish per gallon of water.

> Tetras being so small wouldnt be a problem.

Correct, because they are only about an inch anyway.

--
Dan Abel

Petaluma, California, USA

[Dick]

On Wed, 28 Dec 2005 18:28:25 +0100, Marco Schwarz
> wrote:

>Hi..
>
>> So I put these Clown Loaches in the tank 2 days ago, 3 of
>> them, to eat the snails.
>> I have a 20 gallon tank with 18 fish (8 of them are Neon
>> Tetras), Gouramis, 3 Molly's, the Clown Loaches and
>> others.
>
>Sorry, personally I would _never_ recommend keeping Clown
>Loaches in such a small tank. Do you possibly have any
>other (bigger) aquarium?
>20g tank:
>Substract glas, gravel, roots, stones eventually filter
>volume and look what's finally netto..

Marco, I am curious about the attitude that Clowns need more space.
Perhaps size is part of the reason. None of my Clowns have grown much
more than 5 inches. The 2 in my 10 gallon tank seem no different than
the 6 in my 75 gallon tank, similar size, color and behavior. These
Clowns have been in their respective tanks about 2 1/2 years.

Do you have any personal experience which causes your caution about
smaller tanks?

dick

[Dick]

On Thu, 29 Dec 2005 04:08:50 GMT, "Fishman" > wrote:

>1 fish per gallon of water?!
>
>I don't know who told you that, but I wouldn't take it. What kind of fish?
>1 adult Oscar in 1 gallon of water? What about an Arawana, Bala Shark?
>Tetra's may be a different story, but still...
>
>Fishman
>
I imagine he meant 1 fish-inch per gallon. I have exceeded this
measure with no problems. Frequent partial water changes over come
many problems in my opinion.

dick

>"Jeff" > wrote in message
...
>>
>> "Billy" > wrote in message
>> . ..
>> >I will toss in my 2 pennies in agreement with the others. Give the fish a
>> >few days to become accustomed to the tank before you worry about them
>> >behaviorally. Also, since clowns eventually reach a foot long or more,
>your
>> >20 gal tank is no more than a temporary home, and with the other fish in
>> >that tank, it's already pretty overstocked in my opinion. Test your water
>> >frequently and watch for trouble.
>> >
>> > billy
>>
>> I definitly agree it looks overstocked. But on one of my previous
>> posts/questions I was told 1 fish per gallon of water. I figured the Neon
>> Tetras being so small wouldnt be a problem. I already knew about the
>> Loaches, temporary. It was suggested in this group that I put the loaches
>in
>> the tank, let them clean up the snails and possibly the fish store would
>buy
>> them back or I could sell them.
>>
>>
>

[Sarah Navarro]

Dick, I also am curiuos about this. I have three clown loaches in a 100
gallon tank, along with a few miscellanous other fish. They are only about
4 or 5 inches long also. I have had them about a year and a half and they
just don't seem to grow any larger. I was told when I got them that they
needed to be in a very large tank because they would get very big, but it's
just not happening yet.

Sarah
>
> Marco, I am curious about the attitude that Clowns need more space.
> Perhaps size is part of the reason. None of my Clowns have grown much
> more than 5 inches. The 2 in my 10 gallon tank seem no different than
> the 6 in my 75 gallon tank, similar size, color and behavior. These
> Clowns have been in their respective tanks about 2 1/2 years.
>
> Do you have any personal experience which causes your caution about
> smaller tanks?
>
> dick

[NetMax]

My Clowns are only 4" long and I've had them for 2 years in a 70g.
Either they are not eating well enough or my water is too hard, and I
should look around to find someone who will take them from me. Generally
they can be slow growing, especially at certain sizes, but I've found
their growth rates are very much affected by water quality and diet.

I think the issue with sizing the tank to the fish is two-fold. Many
people only have one tank, so they need to be warned about the eventual
size of the fish, to be sure they are prepared to adequately accommodate
them. Others like myself & Dick have many tanks, so we can simply rotate
them through increasingly larger tanks as required, or not, if not
needed.

The other issue is that tank size will affect their growth rate, or more
particularly, water quality (which is poorer in small tanks) may stunt
the fish. If moving the fish through tank upgrades, you need to be
slightly ahead of their requirements to not stunt their growth (imo).

A few more issues particular to botia are:
- they are shoaling fish, so you need many of them.
- they are bottom dwellers, reducing their useable space to the square
footage of the bottom.
- they can be light sensitive and burrow for shelter and darkness,
further reducing their usable habitat.
Each of these points, should influence us to providing larger habitats.
jmo
--
www.NetMax.tk

"Sarah Navarro" > wrote in message
nk.net...
> Dick, I also am curiuos about this. I have three clown loaches in a
> 100 gallon tank, along with a few miscellanous other fish. They are
> only about 4 or 5 inches long also. I have had them about a year and a
> half and they just don't seem to grow any larger. I was told when I
> got them that they needed to be in a very large tank because they would
> get very big, but it's just not happening yet.
>
> Sarah
>>
>> Marco, I am curious about the attitude that Clowns need more space.
>> Perhaps size is part of the reason. None of my Clowns have grown much
>> more than 5 inches. The 2 in my 10 gallon tank seem no different than
>> the 6 in my 75 gallon tank, similar size, color and behavior. These
>> Clowns have been in their respective tanks about 2 1/2 years.
>>
>> Do you have any personal experience which causes your caution about
>> smaller tanks?
>>
>> dick
>
>

[JeffinMississippi]

"Dan Abel" > wrote in message
...
> In article >,
> "Jeff" > wrote:
>
>
> > I definitly agree it looks overstocked. But on one of my previous
> > posts/questions I was told 1 fish per gallon of water. I figured the
Neon
>
> No, that's one *inch* of fish per gallon of water.
>
> > Tetras being so small wouldnt be a problem.
>
> Correct, because they are only about an inch anyway.
>
> --

Ive got about 35 inches of fish in a 20 gallon tank.

[NetMax]

"JeffinMississippi" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Dan Abel" > wrote in message
> ...
>> In article >,
>> "Jeff" > wrote:
>>
>>
>> > I definitly agree it looks overstocked. But on one of my previous
>> > posts/questions I was told 1 fish per gallon of water. I figured the
> Neon
>>
>> No, that's one *inch* of fish per gallon of water.
>>
>> > Tetras being so small wouldnt be a problem.
>>
>> Correct, because they are only about an inch anyway.
>>
>> --
>
> Ive got about 35 inches of fish in a 20 gallon tank.


There are many ways to calculate fish-load. The fish-inch-gallon is a
guideline which works very poorly at the extremes of high mass (Oscars)
and low mass (Neon tetra).
http://www.2cah.com/netmax/basics/stocking/stocking.shtml

When in doubt, filter according to your fish-load and not your tank size.
If you think you should have a 40g tank, then you should be filtering
your 20g as at least a 40g (generally 25% larger), but as your tank is
small, you want lower turbulence filters (ie: a small Eheim canister
filter to augment what you already have).
--
www.NetMax.tk

[Marco Schwarz]

Hi..

[...Clown Loaches...]
> Do you have any personal experience which causes your
> caution about smaller tanks?

First contact: ~37 years ago. A few years later I started
keeping a group for some years in my at that time biggest
tank 140/40/40cm (~55/15/15"). These days I thaught their
maximal size were 13-15cm (~5-6"). Mine were finally 16+
cm (~7") when I read they grow up to 30cm (~ 12"). So I gave
them to a fish keeper who had a 2000 liter tank (~530g)
with some 7 years old Clowns of about 25cm (~10"). There
mine grew up to 21cm (~8"), but his Clowns up to 27cm
(~11"). It was too late for mine to reach a normal
(healthy) size. ;-(

Now I agree to keepers which demand a minimal tank of 150cm
(~60") or 500 liter (~132g) for a group of them.

That experience made me thoughtful so I stopped keeping
fish like Clowns and Goldfish.

We use a word named "Verbutterung". I don't know how to
translate. It describes what happens if fish is forced to
live in much to small tank: it will stay small(er), will be
less healthier and will get morphological and physiological
problems..

--
cu
Marco

[Justice]

NetMax wrote:
> My Clowns are only 4" long and I've had them for 2 years in a 70g.
> Either they are not eating well enough or my water is too hard, and I
> should look around to find someone who will take them from me. Generally
> they can be slow growing, especially at certain sizes, but I've found
> their growth rates are very much affected by water quality and diet.
>
> I think the issue with sizing the tank to the fish is two-fold. Many
> people only have one tank, so they need to be warned about the eventual
> size of the fish, to be sure they are prepared to adequately accommodate
> them. Others like myself & Dick have many tanks, so we can simply rotate
> them through increasingly larger tanks as required, or not, if not
> needed.
>
> The other issue is that tank size will affect their growth rate, or more
> particularly, water quality (which is poorer in small tanks) may stunt
> the fish. If moving the fish through tank upgrades, you need to be
> slightly ahead of their requirements to not stunt their growth (imo).
>
> A few more issues particular to botia are:
> - they are shoaling fish, so you need many of them.
> - they are bottom dwellers, reducing their useable space to the square
> footage of the bottom.
> - they can be light sensitive and burrow for shelter and darkness,
> further reducing their usable habitat.
> Each of these points, should influence us to providing larger habitats.
> jmo
At one of my LFS they have a cl loach for sail that is about 8" in size,
appently the fish is about 15y old.

[Koi-lo]

"Marco Schwarz" > wrote in message
...
> We use a word named "Verbutterung". I don't know how to
> translate. It describes what happens if fish is forced to
> live in much to small tank: it will stay small(er), will be
> less healthier and will get morphological and physiological
> problems..
=================
I think we would call that "stunted."
--

Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
Aquariums since 1952
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
NEW PAGE: Aquariums:
http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastadaisy/Aquarium-Page4.html
http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastadaisy
~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>

[Dick]

Hi Netmax,

I do have several tanks, but as I gain experience I am more and more
hesitant about moving my fish between tanks. I have seen "sick" fish
recover in their community tanks.

As to other's comment about "stunted" Clowns, this sounds negative as
I associated stunted with sickness. All of my Clowns healthy and
active. If they are stunted, so much the better. After I got my
Clowns I read the posts warning about potential size. That was over 2
years ago. It has been over a year since I have noticed any new
growth. I will be quite happy if they remain at their current sizes.

dick

On Thu, 29 Dec 2005 10:56:12 -0500, "NetMax"
> wrote:

>My Clowns are only 4" long and I've had them for 2 years in a 70g.
>Either they are not eating well enough or my water is too hard, and I
>should look around to find someone who will take them from me. Generally
>they can be slow growing, especially at certain sizes, but I've found
>their growth rates are very much affected by water quality and diet.
>
>I think the issue with sizing the tank to the fish is two-fold. Many
>people only have one tank, so they need to be warned about the eventual
>size of the fish, to be sure they are prepared to adequately accommodate
>them. Others like myself & Dick have many tanks, so we can simply rotate
>them through increasingly larger tanks as required, or not, if not
>needed.
>
>The other issue is that tank size will affect their growth rate, or more
>particularly, water quality (which is poorer in small tanks) may stunt
>the fish. If moving the fish through tank upgrades, you need to be
>slightly ahead of their requirements to not stunt their growth (imo).
>
>A few more issues particular to botia are:
>- they are shoaling fish, so you need many of them.
>- they are bottom dwellers, reducing their useable space to the square
>footage of the bottom.
>- they can be light sensitive and burrow for shelter and darkness,
>further reducing their usable habitat.
>Each of these points, should influence us to providing larger habitats.
>jmo

[NetMax]

'Stunted' tends to have a negative connotation, and if it's due to bad
conditions, then it's deserved. It's interesting to note that stunted
fish (I call them runts) are also naturally occurring. I think this is
part of their evolutionary strategy of constant diversification through
mutation. Non-natural runts (stunted by environment rather than
genetics) can occur from a variety of reasons. The most predominant
would appear to be diet (ie: feeding only a flake food), but it was
explained to me that water parameter dilution also plays a major part,
especially with certain species.

The explanation was as follows: A growing fish will release hormones
which it can then detect back from the water.

If the hormones are not detectable or very low, then the body of water is
large and/or there is no or little competition from similar species, so
the proper action would be to expend more energy on growth (until some
other constraint develops, such as genetics, food supply etc).

If the hormones detected back are high, then the body of water is small
(or shrinking), or there is significant competition from similar species
(both indicating a reduced food supply), so a proper action might be to
not expand energy on growth, and stay small (surviving on less food).

If this analysis is correct (and I suspect that there is significant
truth behind it), then it would go a long way to explaining why total
sizes for fish are so different from an aquarium (where these hormones
are in high concentration) and from nature.

Loaches in particular are mostly from the Mekong river system fed from
mountain ranges (refreshed from heavy rainfall and snowmelt), so their
reaction (stunting) to accumulated elements in an aquarium (nitrates,
hormones etc) might be much more acute than lake fish, such as African
mbuna, which do approach and even exceed their natural size in nature.
--
www.NetMax.tk

"Dick" > wrote in message
...
> Hi Netmax,
>
> I do have several tanks, but as I gain experience I am more and more
> hesitant about moving my fish between tanks. I have seen "sick" fish
> recover in their community tanks.
>
> As to other's comment about "stunted" Clowns, this sounds negative as
> I associated stunted with sickness. All of my Clowns healthy and
> active. If they are stunted, so much the better. After I got my
> Clowns I read the posts warning about potential size. That was over 2
> years ago. It has been over a year since I have noticed any new
> growth. I will be quite happy if they remain at their current sizes.
>
> dick
>
> On Thu, 29 Dec 2005 10:56:12 -0500, "NetMax"
> > wrote:
>
>>My Clowns are only 4" long and I've had them for 2 years in a 70g.
>>Either they are not eating well enough or my water is too hard, and I
>>should look around to find someone who will take them from me.
>>Generally
>>they can be slow growing, especially at certain sizes, but I've found
>>their growth rates are very much affected by water quality and diet.
>>
>>I think the issue with sizing the tank to the fish is two-fold. Many
>>people only have one tank, so they need to be warned about the eventual
>>size of the fish, to be sure they are prepared to adequately
>>accommodate
>>them. Others like myself & Dick have many tanks, so we can simply
>>rotate
>>them through increasingly larger tanks as required, or not, if not
>>needed.
>>
>>The other issue is that tank size will affect their growth rate, or
>>more
>>particularly, water quality (which is poorer in small tanks) may stunt
>>the fish. If moving the fish through tank upgrades, you need to be
>>slightly ahead of their requirements to not stunt their growth (imo).
>>
>>A few more issues particular to botia are:
>>- they are shoaling fish, so you need many of them.
>>- they are bottom dwellers, reducing their useable space to the square
>>footage of the bottom.
>>- they can be light sensitive and burrow for shelter and darkness,
>>further reducing their usable habitat.
>>Each of these points, should influence us to providing larger habitats.
>>jmo
>

[Gill Passman]

NetMax wrote:
> 'Stunted' tends to have a negative connotation, and if it's due to bad
> conditions, then it's deserved. It's interesting to note that stunted
> fish (I call them runts) are also naturally occurring. I think this is
> part of their evolutionary strategy of constant diversification through
> mutation. Non-natural runts (stunted by environment rather than
> genetics) can occur from a variety of reasons. The most predominant
> would appear to be diet (ie: feeding only a flake food), but it was
> explained to me that water parameter dilution also plays a major part,
> especially with certain species.
>
> The explanation was as follows: A growing fish will release hormones
> which it can then detect back from the water.
>
> If the hormones are not detectable or very low, then the body of water is
> large and/or there is no or little competition from similar species, so
> the proper action would be to expend more energy on growth (until some
> other constraint develops, such as genetics, food supply etc).
>
> If the hormones detected back are high, then the body of water is small
> (or shrinking), or there is significant competition from similar species
> (both indicating a reduced food supply), so a proper action might be to
> not expand energy on growth, and stay small (surviving on less food).
>
> If this analysis is correct (and I suspect that there is significant
> truth behind it), then it would go a long way to explaining why total
> sizes for fish are so different from an aquarium (where these hormones
> are in high concentration) and from nature.
>
> Loaches in particular are mostly from the Mekong river system fed from
> mountain ranges (refreshed from heavy rainfall and snowmelt), so their
> reaction (stunting) to accumulated elements in an aquarium (nitrates,
> hormones etc) might be much more acute than lake fish, such as African
> mbuna, which do approach and even exceed their natural size in nature.


Hmmm....interesting

I have a "stunted" Platy. He's around 1 year old and has never grown
above 1cm. Platy fry from the same parents but in the "parent" tank grow
rapidly to "adult" size.

The "stunted" Platy has always lived in a 5gall tank (was born in it).
His last contact with Platys was at around 2 months old when I netted
out the fry and took them to the LFS - he remained only because he
jumped out of the bag and so I decided that he may as well stay. His
only fishy companions have been single bettas. Diet has always been
varied - flake and frozen and the odd bits of pea that have been fed to
the betta yet he has always remained small.

My guess is that he is a "natural runt" but as he had never had any
competition from other platys I've also wondered if this has been
another reason for the lack of growth. Maybe sharing the tank with a
betta might also have meant that staying small has been to his advantage
in keeping out of trouble.

I actually spotted some dinky platys (I'm guessing very young) at the
LFS and bought him 3 small companions today - his days as a betta
companion are over. If they get too big they will move on to a larger
tank. It will be interesting to see if he grows at all now he is mixing
with his "own kind"

Gill

[Billy]

"Fishman" > wrote in message
news:mjJsf.28955$x%2.4606@trnddc06...
>1 fish per gallon of water?!
>
> I don't know who told you that, but I wouldn't take it. What kind
> of fish?
> 1 adult Oscar in 1 gallon of water? What about an Arawana, Bala
> Shark?
> Tetra's may be a different story, but still...


It's not a hard rule, just a guideline. Many fish would not tolerate
such conditions, such as large fish, or very aggressive fish. There
are no hard rules in aquaria, give me one, and I'm sure I could find
someone who has broken the rule and had good results. <g>

b

[NetMax]

"Gill Passman" > wrote in message
.. .
> NetMax wrote:
>> 'Stunted' tends to have a negative connotation, and if it's due to bad
>> conditions, then it's deserved. It's interesting to note that stunted
>> fish (I call them runts) are also naturally occurring. I think this
>> is part of their evolutionary strategy of constant diversification
>> through mutation. Non-natural runts (stunted by environment rather
>> than genetics) can occur from a variety of reasons. The most
>> predominant would appear to be diet (ie: feeding only a flake food),
>> but it was explained to me that water parameter dilution also plays a
>> major part, especially with certain species.
>>
>> The explanation was as follows: A growing fish will release hormones
>> which it can then detect back from the water.
>>
>> If the hormones are not detectable or very low, then the body of water
>> is large and/or there is no or little competition from similar
>> species, so the proper action would be to expend more energy on growth
>> (until some other constraint develops, such as genetics, food supply
>> etc).
>>
>> If the hormones detected back are high, then the body of water is
>> small (or shrinking), or there is significant competition from similar
>> species (both indicating a reduced food supply), so a proper action
>> might be to not expand energy on growth, and stay small (surviving on
>> less food).
>>
>> If this analysis is correct (and I suspect that there is significant
>> truth behind it), then it would go a long way to explaining why total
>> sizes for fish are so different from an aquarium (where these hormones
>> are in high concentration) and from nature.
>>
>> Loaches in particular are mostly from the Mekong river system fed from
>> mountain ranges (refreshed from heavy rainfall and snowmelt), so their
>> reaction (stunting) to accumulated elements in an aquarium (nitrates,
>> hormones etc) might be much more acute than lake fish, such as African
>> mbuna, which do approach and even exceed their natural size in nature.
>
>
> Hmmm....interesting
>
> I have a "stunted" Platy. He's around 1 year old and has never grown
> above 1cm. Platy fry from the same parents but in the "parent" tank
> grow rapidly to "adult" size.
>
> The "stunted" Platy has always lived in a 5gall tank (was born in it).
> His last contact with Platys was at around 2 months old when I netted
> out the fry and took them to the LFS - he remained only because he
> jumped out of the bag and so I decided that he may as well stay. His
> only fishy companions have been single bettas. Diet has always been
> varied - flake and frozen and the odd bits of pea that have been fed to
> the betta yet he has always remained small.
>
> My guess is that he is a "natural runt" but as he had never had any
> competition from other platys I've also wondered if this has been
> another reason for the lack of growth. Maybe sharing the tank with a
> betta might also have meant that staying small has been to his
> advantage in keeping out of trouble.
>
> I actually spotted some dinky platys (I'm guessing very young) at the
> LFS and bought him 3 small companions today - his days as a betta
> companion are over. If they get too big they will move on to a larger
> tank. It will be interesting to see if he grows at all now he is mixing
> with his "own kind"
>
> Gill

Two things came to mind reading your post. The first was a vague
recollection of a correlation between growth and competition, such that a
competitive environment causes them to grow faster.

The 2nd was that the longer a fish is exposed to the environmental
conditions which cause them to stop or reduce their growth, the less
likely it becomes that they will resume their normal growth rate or reach
their normal size after the conditions have been corrected. This is only
from personal observation.
--
www.NetMax.tk

[NetMax]

"Billy" > wrote in message
. ..
>
> "Fishman" > wrote in message
> news:mjJsf.28955$x%2.4606@trnddc06...
>>1 fish per gallon of water?!
>>
>> I don't know who told you that, but I wouldn't take it. What kind of
>> fish?
>> 1 adult Oscar in 1 gallon of water? What about an Arawana, Bala
>> Shark?
>> Tetra's may be a different story, but still...
>
>
> It's not a hard rule, just a guideline. Many fish would not tolerate
> such conditions, such as large fish, or very aggressive fish. There are
> no hard rules in aquaria, give me one, and I'm sure I could find
> someone who has broken the rule and had good results. <g>
>
> b

Fish need water. After that, it's anyone's opinion ;~).
--
www.NetMax.tk

[Dick]

On Sat, 31 Dec 2005 00:29:23 -0500, "NetMax"
> wrote:

>"Gill Passman" > wrote in message
.. .
>> NetMax wrote:
>>> 'Stunted' tends to have a negative connotation, and if it's due to bad
>>> conditions, then it's deserved. It's interesting to note that stunted
>>> fish (I call them runts) are also naturally occurring. I think this
>>> is part of their evolutionary strategy of constant diversification
>>> through mutation. Non-natural runts (stunted by environment rather
>>> than genetics) can occur from a variety of reasons. The most
>>> predominant would appear to be diet (ie: feeding only a flake food),
>>> but it was explained to me that water parameter dilution also plays a
>>> major part, especially with certain species.
>>>
>>> The explanation was as follows: A growing fish will release hormones
>>> which it can then detect back from the water.
>>>
>>> If the hormones are not detectable or very low, then the body of water
>>> is large and/or there is no or little competition from similar
>>> species, so the proper action would be to expend more energy on growth
>>> (until some other constraint develops, such as genetics, food supply
>>> etc).
>>>
>>> If the hormones detected back are high, then the body of water is
>>> small (or shrinking), or there is significant competition from similar
>>> species (both indicating a reduced food supply), so a proper action
>>> might be to not expand energy on growth, and stay small (surviving on
>>> less food).
>>>
>>> If this analysis is correct (and I suspect that there is significant
>>> truth behind it), then it would go a long way to explaining why total
>>> sizes for fish are so different from an aquarium (where these hormones
>>> are in high concentration) and from nature.
>>>
>>> Loaches in particular are mostly from the Mekong river system fed from
>>> mountain ranges (refreshed from heavy rainfall and snowmelt), so their
>>> reaction (stunting) to accumulated elements in an aquarium (nitrates,
>>> hormones etc) might be much more acute than lake fish, such as African
>>> mbuna, which do approach and even exceed their natural size in nature.
>>
>>
>> Hmmm....interesting
>>
>> I have a "stunted" Platy. He's around 1 year old and has never grown
>> above 1cm. Platy fry from the same parents but in the "parent" tank
>> grow rapidly to "adult" size.
>>
>> The "stunted" Platy has always lived in a 5gall tank (was born in it).
>> His last contact with Platys was at around 2 months old when I netted
>> out the fry and took them to the LFS - he remained only because he
>> jumped out of the bag and so I decided that he may as well stay. His
>> only fishy companions have been single bettas. Diet has always been
>> varied - flake and frozen and the odd bits of pea that have been fed to
>> the betta yet he has always remained small.
>>
>> My guess is that he is a "natural runt" but as he had never had any
>> competition from other platys I've also wondered if this has been
>> another reason for the lack of growth. Maybe sharing the tank with a
>> betta might also have meant that staying small has been to his
>> advantage in keeping out of trouble.
>>
>> I actually spotted some dinky platys (I'm guessing very young) at the
>> LFS and bought him 3 small companions today - his days as a betta
>> companion are over. If they get too big they will move on to a larger
>> tank. It will be interesting to see if he grows at all now he is mixing
>> with his "own kind"
>>
>> Gill
>
>Two things came to mind reading your post. The first was a vague
>recollection of a correlation between growth and competition, such that a
>competitive environment causes them to grow faster.
>
>The 2nd was that the longer a fish is exposed to the environmental
>conditions which cause them to stop or reduce their growth, the less
>likely it becomes that they will resume their normal growth rate or reach
>their normal size after the conditions have been corrected. This is only
>from personal observation.


A Black Molly had 50 fry in a 10 gallon tank. There sizes varied
widley as they grew. If the chemical explaination were the answer, I
would think they all would be stunted, whereas most were normal or
even larger than normal. Of course as they grew large enough they
were moved to other tanks. The last ones in the breeding tank were
smaller than normal. A few died, but most lived.

Anyway, I am happy my Clowns have remained a good size for my tanks.
I wonder how the chemical influence explains the 2 that have lived in
my 10 gallon tank versus the 6 in the 75 all being similar in size?

dick

[Dick]

On Fri, 30 Dec 2005 16:37:15 -0800, "Billy"
> wrote:

>
>"Fishman" > wrote in message
>news:mjJsf.28955$x%2.4606@trnddc06...
>>1 fish per gallon of water?!
>>
>> I don't know who told you that, but I wouldn't take it. What kind
>> of fish?
>> 1 adult Oscar in 1 gallon of water? What about an Arawana, Bala
>> Shark?
>> Tetra's may be a different story, but still...
>
>
>It's not a hard rule, just a guideline. Many fish would not tolerate
>such conditions, such as large fish, or very aggressive fish. There
>are no hard rules in aquaria, give me one, and I'm sure I could find
>someone who has broken the rule and had good results. <g>
>
>b
>
I agree, one size does not fit all. I like answers in the newsgroups
as they most often are real experience rather than a generalization.

dick

[Dick]

On Sat, 31 Dec 2005 00:31:00 -0500, "NetMax"
> wrote:

>
>"Billy" > wrote in message
. ..
>>
>> "Fishman" > wrote in message
>> news:mjJsf.28955$x%2.4606@trnddc06...
>>>1 fish per gallon of water?!
>>>
>>> I don't know who told you that, but I wouldn't take it. What kind of
>>> fish?
>>> 1 adult Oscar in 1 gallon of water? What about an Arawana, Bala
>>> Shark?
>>> Tetra's may be a different story, but still...
>>
>>
>> It's not a hard rule, just a guideline. Many fish would not tolerate
>> such conditions, such as large fish, or very aggressive fish. There are
>> no hard rules in aquaria, give me one, and I'm sure I could find
>> someone who has broken the rule and had good results. <g>
>>
>> b
>
>Fish need water. After that, it's anyone's opinion ;~).

Tell that to a "jumper!" <g>

dick

[Gill Passman]

Dick wrote:
> On Sat, 31 Dec 2005 00:29:23 -0500, "NetMax"
> > wrote:
>
>
>>"Gill Passman" > wrote in message
.. .
>>
>>>NetMax wrote:
>>>
>>>>'Stunted' tends to have a negative connotation, and if it's due to bad
>>>>conditions, then it's deserved. It's interesting to note that stunted
>>>>fish (I call them runts) are also naturally occurring. I think this
>>>>is part of their evolutionary strategy of constant diversification
>>>>through mutation. Non-natural runts (stunted by environment rather
>>>>than genetics) can occur from a variety of reasons. The most
>>>>predominant would appear to be diet (ie: feeding only a flake food),
>>>>but it was explained to me that water parameter dilution also plays a
>>>>major part, especially with certain species.
>>>>
>>>>The explanation was as follows: A growing fish will release hormones
>>>>which it can then detect back from the water.
>>>>
>>>>If the hormones are not detectable or very low, then the body of water
>>>>is large and/or there is no or little competition from similar
>>>>species, so the proper action would be to expend more energy on growth
>>>>(until some other constraint develops, such as genetics, food supply
>>>>etc).
>>>>
>>>>If the hormones detected back are high, then the body of water is
>>>>small (or shrinking), or there is significant competition from similar
>>>>species (both indicating a reduced food supply), so a proper action
>>>>might be to not expand energy on growth, and stay small (surviving on
>>>>less food).
>>>>
>>>>If this analysis is correct (and I suspect that there is significant
>>>>truth behind it), then it would go a long way to explaining why total
>>>>sizes for fish are so different from an aquarium (where these hormones
>>>>are in high concentration) and from nature.
>>>>
>>>>Loaches in particular are mostly from the Mekong river system fed from
>>>>mountain ranges (refreshed from heavy rainfall and snowmelt), so their
>>>>reaction (stunting) to accumulated elements in an aquarium (nitrates,
>>>>hormones etc) might be much more acute than lake fish, such as African
>>>>mbuna, which do approach and even exceed their natural size in nature.
>>>
>>>
>>>Hmmm....interesting
>>>
>>>I have a "stunted" Platy. He's around 1 year old and has never grown
>>>above 1cm. Platy fry from the same parents but in the "parent" tank
>>>grow rapidly to "adult" size.
>>>
>>>The "stunted" Platy has always lived in a 5gall tank (was born in it).
>>>His last contact with Platys was at around 2 months old when I netted
>>>out the fry and took them to the LFS - he remained only because he
>>>jumped out of the bag and so I decided that he may as well stay. His
>>>only fishy companions have been single bettas. Diet has always been
>>>varied - flake and frozen and the odd bits of pea that have been fed to
>>>the betta yet he has always remained small.
>>>
>>>My guess is that he is a "natural runt" but as he had never had any
>>>competition from other platys I've also wondered if this has been
>>>another reason for the lack of growth. Maybe sharing the tank with a
>>>betta might also have meant that staying small has been to his
>>>advantage in keeping out of trouble.
>>>
>>>I actually spotted some dinky platys (I'm guessing very young) at the
>>>LFS and bought him 3 small companions today - his days as a betta
>>>companion are over. If they get too big they will move on to a larger
>>>tank. It will be interesting to see if he grows at all now he is mixing
>>>with his "own kind"
>>>
>>>Gill
>>
>>Two things came to mind reading your post. The first was a vague
>>recollection of a correlation between growth and competition, such that a
>>competitive environment causes them to grow faster.
>>
>>The 2nd was that the longer a fish is exposed to the environmental
>>conditions which cause them to stop or reduce their growth, the less
>>likely it becomes that they will resume their normal growth rate or reach
>>their normal size after the conditions have been corrected. This is only
>
>>from personal observation.
>
>
> A Black Molly had 50 fry in a 10 gallon tank. There sizes varied
> widley as they grew. If the chemical explaination were the answer, I
> would think they all would be stunted, whereas most were normal or
> even larger than normal. Of course as they grew large enough they
> were moved to other tanks. The last ones in the breeding tank were
> smaller than normal. A few died, but most lived.
>
> Anyway, I am happy my Clowns have remained a good size for my tanks.
> I wonder how the chemical influence explains the 2 that have lived in
> my 10 gallon tank versus the 6 in the 75 all being similar in size?
>
> dick

My experience has been varying sizes from each batch of fry. If left in
the Community tank it is only the strongest that survive. The stunted
Platy survived, I believe, because he was not given this type of
competition...in nature or even in the artificial confines of a
community aquarium he would not have lived as long as he did - sadly I
made a big mistake by putting in some Platy friends for him - I found
him dead this morning :-(

I think that nature/genetics does play a big part in the size fish grow
to - but yes I also agree that a fish will not thrive if the conditions
are wrong. I probably wouldn't put Clown Loaches in a small tank unless
it was for QT purposes. However Dick's experience in fish keeping and
stocking levels have allowed him to do this successfully - I wouldn't
trust myself to be diligent enough to make it work.


>>The 2nd was that the longer a fish is exposed to the environmental
>>conditions which cause them to stop or reduce their growth, the less
>>likely it becomes that they will resume their normal growth rate or
reach
>>their normal size after the conditions have been corrected.
>

This observation made me wonder if this is where the idea that fish
"will only grow to the size of the tank" comes from. Sadly, I still hear
this comment as an excuse for keeping large fish in unsuitable
"over-stocked" tanks as a justification for doing so - everytime I hear
it I try to explain that just because they survive short-term it is not
in the best interests of the fish....

Gill

[NetMax]

"Gill Passman" > wrote in message
.. .
> Dick wrote:
>> On Sat, 31 Dec 2005 00:29:23 -0500, "NetMax"
>> > wrote:
>>
>>
>>>"Gill Passman" > wrote in message
.. .
>>>
>>>>NetMax wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>'Stunted' tends to have a negative connotation, and if it's due to
>>>>>bad conditions, then it's deserved. It's interesting to note that
>>>>>stunted fish (I call them runts) are also naturally occurring. I
>>>>>think this is part of their evolutionary strategy of constant
>>>>>diversification through mutation. Non-natural runts (stunted by
>>>>>environment rather than genetics) can occur from a variety of
>>>>>reasons. The most predominant would appear to be diet (ie: feeding
>>>>>only a flake food), but it was explained to me that water parameter
>>>>>dilution also plays a major part, especially with certain species.
>>>>>
>>>>>The explanation was as follows: A growing fish will release
>>>>>hormones which it can then detect back from the water.
>>>>>
>>>>>If the hormones are not detectable or very low, then the body of
>>>>>water is large and/or there is no or little competition from similar
>>>>>species, so the proper action would be to expend more energy on
>>>>>growth (until some other constraint develops, such as genetics, food
>>>>>supply etc).
>>>>>
>>>>>If the hormones detected back are high, then the body of water is
>>>>>small (or shrinking), or there is significant competition from
>>>>>similar species (both indicating a reduced food supply), so a proper
>>>>>action might be to not expand energy on growth, and stay small
>>>>>(surviving on less food).
>>>>>
>>>>>If this analysis is correct (and I suspect that there is significant
>>>>>truth behind it), then it would go a long way to explaining why
>>>>>total sizes for fish are so different from an aquarium (where these
>>>>>hormones are in high concentration) and from nature.
>>>>>
>>>>>Loaches in particular are mostly from the Mekong river system fed
>>>>>from mountain ranges (refreshed from heavy rainfall and snowmelt),
>>>>>so their reaction (stunting) to accumulated elements in an aquarium
>>>>>(nitrates, hormones etc) might be much more acute than lake fish,
>>>>>such as African mbuna, which do approach and even exceed their
>>>>>natural size in nature.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Hmmm....interesting
>>>>
>>>>I have a "stunted" Platy. He's around 1 year old and has never grown
>>>>above 1cm. Platy fry from the same parents but in the "parent" tank
>>>>grow rapidly to "adult" size.
>>>>
>>>>The "stunted" Platy has always lived in a 5gall tank (was born in
>>>>it). His last contact with Platys was at around 2 months old when I
>>>>netted out the fry and took them to the LFS - he remained only
>>>>because he jumped out of the bag and so I decided that he may as well
>>>>stay. His only fishy companions have been single bettas. Diet has
>>>>always been varied - flake and frozen and the odd bits of pea that
>>>>have been fed to the betta yet he has always remained small.
>>>>
>>>>My guess is that he is a "natural runt" but as he had never had any
>>>>competition from other platys I've also wondered if this has been
>>>>another reason for the lack of growth. Maybe sharing the tank with a
>>>>betta might also have meant that staying small has been to his
>>>>advantage in keeping out of trouble.
>>>>
>>>>I actually spotted some dinky platys (I'm guessing very young) at the
>>>>LFS and bought him 3 small companions today - his days as a betta
>>>>companion are over. If they get too big they will move on to a larger
>>>>tank. It will be interesting to see if he grows at all now he is
>>>>mixing with his "own kind"
>>>>
>>>>Gill
>>>
>>>Two things came to mind reading your post. The first was a vague
>>>recollection of a correlation between growth and competition, such
>>>that a competitive environment causes them to grow faster.
>>>
>>>The 2nd was that the longer a fish is exposed to the environmental
>>>conditions which cause them to stop or reduce their growth, the less
>>>likely it becomes that they will resume their normal growth rate or
>>>reach their normal size after the conditions have been corrected.
>>>This is only
>>
>>>from personal observation.
>>
>>
>> A Black Molly had 50 fry in a 10 gallon tank. There sizes varied
>> widley as they grew. If the chemical explaination were the answer, I
>> would think they all would be stunted, whereas most were normal or
>> even larger than normal. Of course as they grew large enough they
>> were moved to other tanks. The last ones in the breeding tank were
>> smaller than normal. A few died, but most lived.

The growth rates of different species, and in varying environments would
make a great book. All I can tell you is that there seems to be a moment
of diversification which varies according to several factors, and water
quality (unless to an extreme) is not a big factor. For example, when a
medium sized substrate spawning cichlid (ie: Jack Dempsey, Rainbows,
Firemouths, Texans etc) has a batch of fry, it's remarkable how close in
size the fry are and for how long. While the fry are under parental
control, there is minimal size differences (there is always a few fry
which follow a slightly different growth rate). If the parents are
removed, the differences between the smallest and the largest suddenly
seems to increase. Add a different species of fish (ie: some corys), and
the differences increase again. Add a more food-competitive fish (fry
from a slightly older generation), and again the difference between
smallest and largest increases, to the point it looks like you have more
than 2 generations of fry. Mess with the water temperature, or their
diet and again you see this divergence occuring.

At the other extreme, look at fish which have relatively few fry (cichlid
mouthbrooders), and the fry will just be starting size divergence before
they are even released from the parent. After 3-4 months, the fry will
appear to have come from 2 broods instead of one. Livebearers are the
same. Fry are all born at relatively the same size, but quickly diverge
in size.

I think the mechanisms at work in the first few months of fry growth are
more related to species, genetics, temperature, competition and food
supply (quantity, quality and interval), than water parameters as factors
to cause runts. jmo

>> Anyway, I am happy my Clowns have remained a good size for my tanks.
>> I wonder how the chemical influence explains the 2 that have lived in
>> my 10 gallon tank versus the 6 in the 75 all being similar in size?

It would suggest that there is relatively little difference in water
quality, due to your water change routine, but there are so many
factors...

>> dick
>
> My experience has been varying sizes from each batch of fry. If left in
> the Community tank it is only the strongest that survive. The stunted
> Platy survived, I believe, because he was not given this type of
> competition...in nature or even in the artificial confines of a
> community aquarium he would not have lived as long as he did - sadly I
> made a big mistake by putting in some Platy friends for him - I found
> him dead this morning :-(
>
> I think that nature/genetics does play a big part in the size fish grow
> to - but yes I also agree that a fish will not thrive if the conditions
> are wrong. I probably wouldn't put Clown Loaches in a small tank unless
> it was for QT purposes. However Dick's experience in fish keeping and
> stocking levels have allowed him to do this successfully - I wouldn't
> trust myself to be diligent enough to make it work.
>
>
> >>The 2nd was that the longer a fish is exposed to the environmental
> >>conditions which cause them to stop or reduce their growth, the less
> >>likely it becomes that they will resume their normal growth rate or
> reach
> >>their normal size after the conditions have been corrected.
> >
>
> This observation made me wonder if this is where the idea that fish
> "will only grow to the size of the tank" comes from. Sadly, I still
> hear this comment as an excuse for keeping large fish in unsuitable
> "over-stocked" tanks as a justification for doing so - everytime I hear
> it I try to explain that just because they survive short-term it is not
> in the best interests of the fish....

Just last night I was talking with someone, arranging a new tank for
their Tiger Oscar and Silver dollars. He was leaning towards a 70g
Oceanic, and I was leaning more towards a 90g (or larger Perfecto for the
same cost). We talked about the factors which make them grow, grow
faster, not grow, grow slowly etc. The owner (who is a very diligent and
conciencious hobbyist) went away from the conversation with ideas which
would keep the Oscar growing slower and not get quite as big as possible,
but in a responsible & humane way. Deliberate stunted is not neccesarily
negative, or bad for the fish, but it's a fine line to manage, so it's
far easier (imo) to provide optimal conditions and let the genetics be
the constraint.

> Gill

Sorry about your Platy Gill. I wonder what took him out so quickly? In
aquariums, fish persist which would in nature, quickly become part of the
food-chain, but occasionally' nature's crowd control methods sneak into
our tanks, leaving us a little perplexed.
--
www.NetMax.tk

[NetMax]

"Dick" > wrote in message
...
> On Sat, 31 Dec 2005 00:31:00 -0500, "NetMax"
> > wrote:
>
>>
>>"Billy" > wrote in message
. ..
>>>
>>> "Fishman" > wrote in message
>>> news:mjJsf.28955$x%2.4606@trnddc06...
>>>>1 fish per gallon of water?!
>>>>
>>>> I don't know who told you that, but I wouldn't take it. What kind
>>>> of
>>>> fish?
>>>> 1 adult Oscar in 1 gallon of water? What about an Arawana, Bala
>>>> Shark?
>>>> Tetra's may be a different story, but still...
>>>
>>>
>>> It's not a hard rule, just a guideline. Many fish would not tolerate
>>> such conditions, such as large fish, or very aggressive fish. There
>>> are
>>> no hard rules in aquaria, give me one, and I'm sure I could find
>>> someone who has broken the rule and had good results. <g>
>>>
>>> b
>>
>>Fish need water. After that, it's anyone's opinion ;~).
>
> Tell that to a "jumper!" <g>
>
> dick


When a fish looks out of an aquarium, there is probably nothing that
suggests that we are not underwater, anymore than when people look out a
patio door, expecting air on the other side.

Jumpers are not suicidal. They are explorers.
--
www.NetMax.tk

[Gill Passman]

NetMax wrote:
> "Gill Passman" > wrote in message
> .. .
>
>>Dick wrote:
>>
>>>On Sat, 31 Dec 2005 00:29:23 -0500, "NetMax"
> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>"Gill Passman" > wrote in message
.. .
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>NetMax wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>'Stunted' tends to have a negative connotation, and if it's due to
>>>>>>bad conditions, then it's deserved. It's interesting to note that
>>>>>>stunted fish (I call them runts) are also naturally occurring. I
>>>>>>think this is part of their evolutionary strategy of constant
>>>>>>diversification through mutation. Non-natural runts (stunted by
>>>>>>environment rather than genetics) can occur from a variety of
>>>>>>reasons. The most predominant would appear to be diet (ie: feeding
>>>>>>only a flake food), but it was explained to me that water parameter
>>>>>>dilution also plays a major part, especially with certain species.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>The explanation was as follows: A growing fish will release
>>>>>>hormones which it can then detect back from the water.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>If the hormones are not detectable or very low, then the body of
>>>>>>water is large and/or there is no or little competition from similar
>>>>>>species, so the proper action would be to expend more energy on
>>>>>>growth (until some other constraint develops, such as genetics, food
>>>>>>supply etc).
>>>>>>
>>>>>>If the hormones detected back are high, then the body of water is
>>>>>>small (or shrinking), or there is significant competition from
>>>>>>similar species (both indicating a reduced food supply), so a proper
>>>>>>action might be to not expand energy on growth, and stay small
>>>>>>(surviving on less food).
>>>>>>
>>>>>>If this analysis is correct (and I suspect that there is significant
>>>>>>truth behind it), then it would go a long way to explaining why
>>>>>>total sizes for fish are so different from an aquarium (where these
>>>>>>hormones are in high concentration) and from nature.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Loaches in particular are mostly from the Mekong river system fed
>>>>>
>>>>>>from mountain ranges (refreshed from heavy rainfall and snowmelt),
>>>>>
>>>>>>so their reaction (stunting) to accumulated elements in an aquarium
>>>>>>(nitrates, hormones etc) might be much more acute than lake fish,
>>>>>>such as African mbuna, which do approach and even exceed their
>>>>>>natural size in nature.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>Hmmm....interesting
>>>>>
>>>>>I have a "stunted" Platy. He's around 1 year old and has never grown
>>>>>above 1cm. Platy fry from the same parents but in the "parent" tank
>>>>>grow rapidly to "adult" size.
>>>>>
>>>>>The "stunted" Platy has always lived in a 5gall tank (was born in
>>>>>it). His last contact with Platys was at around 2 months old when I
>>>>>netted out the fry and took them to the LFS - he remained only
>>>>>because he jumped out of the bag and so I decided that he may as well
>>>>>stay. His only fishy companions have been single bettas. Diet has
>>>>>always been varied - flake and frozen and the odd bits of pea that
>>>>>have been fed to the betta yet he has always remained small.
>>>>>
>>>>>My guess is that he is a "natural runt" but as he had never had any
>>>>>competition from other platys I've also wondered if this has been
>>>>>another reason for the lack of growth. Maybe sharing the tank with a
>>>>>betta might also have meant that staying small has been to his
>>>>>advantage in keeping out of trouble.
>>>>>
>>>>>I actually spotted some dinky platys (I'm guessing very young) at the
>>>>>LFS and bought him 3 small companions today - his days as a betta
>>>>>companion are over. If they get too big they will move on to a larger
>>>>>tank. It will be interesting to see if he grows at all now he is
>>>>>mixing with his "own kind"
>>>>>
>>>>>Gill
>>>>
>>>>Two things came to mind reading your post. The first was a vague
>>>>recollection of a correlation between growth and competition, such
>>>>that a competitive environment causes them to grow faster.
>>>>
>>>>The 2nd was that the longer a fish is exposed to the environmental
>>>>conditions which cause them to stop or reduce their growth, the less
>>>>likely it becomes that they will resume their normal growth rate or
>>>>reach their normal size after the conditions have been corrected.
>>>>This is only
>>>
>>>>from personal observation.
>>>
>>>
>>>A Black Molly had 50 fry in a 10 gallon tank. There sizes varied
>>>widley as they grew. If the chemical explaination were the answer, I
>>>would think they all would be stunted, whereas most were normal or
>>>even larger than normal. Of course as they grew large enough they
>>>were moved to other tanks. The last ones in the breeding tank were
>>>smaller than normal. A few died, but most lived.
>
>
> The growth rates of different species, and in varying environments would
> make a great book. All I can tell you is that there seems to be a moment
> of diversification which varies according to several factors, and water
> quality (unless to an extreme) is not a big factor. For example, when a
> medium sized substrate spawning cichlid (ie: Jack Dempsey, Rainbows,
> Firemouths, Texans etc) has a batch of fry, it's remarkable how close in
> size the fry are and for how long. While the fry are under parental
> control, there is minimal size differences (there is always a few fry
> which follow a slightly different growth rate). If the parents are
> removed, the differences between the smallest and the largest suddenly
> seems to increase. Add a different species of fish (ie: some corys), and
> the differences increase again. Add a more food-competitive fish (fry
> from a slightly older generation), and again the difference between
> smallest and largest increases, to the point it looks like you have more
> than 2 generations of fry. Mess with the water temperature, or their
> diet and again you see this divergence occuring.
>
> At the other extreme, look at fish which have relatively few fry (cichlid
> mouthbrooders), and the fry will just be starting size divergence before
> they are even released from the parent. After 3-4 months, the fry will
> appear to have come from 2 broods instead of one. Livebearers are the
> same. Fry are all born at relatively the same size, but quickly diverge
> in size.
>
> I think the mechanisms at work in the first few months of fry growth are
> more related to species, genetics, temperature, competition and food
> supply (quantity, quality and interval), than water parameters as factors
> to cause runts. jmo
>
>
>>>Anyway, I am happy my Clowns have remained a good size for my tanks.
>>>I wonder how the chemical influence explains the 2 that have lived in
>>>my 10 gallon tank versus the 6 in the 75 all being similar in size?
>
>
> It would suggest that there is relatively little difference in water
> quality, due to your water change routine, but there are so many
> factors...
>
>
>>>dick
>>
>>My experience has been varying sizes from each batch of fry. If left in
>>the Community tank it is only the strongest that survive. The stunted
>>Platy survived, I believe, because he was not given this type of
>>competition...in nature or even in the artificial confines of a
>>community aquarium he would not have lived as long as he did - sadly I
>>made a big mistake by putting in some Platy friends for him - I found
>>him dead this morning :-(
>>
>>I think that nature/genetics does play a big part in the size fish grow
>>to - but yes I also agree that a fish will not thrive if the conditions
>>are wrong. I probably wouldn't put Clown Loaches in a small tank unless
>>it was for QT purposes. However Dick's experience in fish keeping and
>>stocking levels have allowed him to do this successfully - I wouldn't
>>trust myself to be diligent enough to make it work.
>>
>>
>>
>>>>The 2nd was that the longer a fish is exposed to the environmental
>>>>conditions which cause them to stop or reduce their growth, the less
>>>>likely it becomes that they will resume their normal growth rate or
>>
>>reach
>>
>>>>their normal size after the conditions have been corrected.
>>>
>>This observation made me wonder if this is where the idea that fish
>>"will only grow to the size of the tank" comes from. Sadly, I still
>>hear this comment as an excuse for keeping large fish in unsuitable
>>"over-stocked" tanks as a justification for doing so - everytime I hear
>>it I try to explain that just because they survive short-term it is not
>>in the best interests of the fish....
>
>
> Just last night I was talking with someone, arranging a new tank for
> their Tiger Oscar and Silver dollars. He was leaning towards a 70g
> Oceanic, and I was leaning more towards a 90g (or larger Perfecto for the
> same cost). We talked about the factors which make them grow, grow
> faster, not grow, grow slowly etc. The owner (who is a very diligent and
> conciencious hobbyist) went away from the conversation with ideas which
> would keep the Oscar growing slower and not get quite as big as possible,
> but in a responsible & humane way. Deliberate stunted is not neccesarily
> negative, or bad for the fish, but it's a fine line to manage, so it's
> far easier (imo) to provide optimal conditions and let the genetics be
> the constraint.
>
>
>>Gill
>
>
> Sorry about your Platy Gill. I wonder what took him out so quickly? In
> aquariums, fish persist which would in nature, quickly become part of the
> food-chain, but occasionally' nature's crowd control methods sneak into
> our tanks, leaving us a little perplexed.


I think that it will remain a mystery unless anything carries off the 3
companions that I bought for him. My guess is that he was probably
weakened by the over-feed episode last weekend and just got picked on -
but who knows...

Gill

[Marco Schwarz]

Hi..

>> We use a word named "Verbutterung". I don't know how to
>> translate.
> I think we would call that "stunted."

Thanks.
--
cu
Marco

[Dr Engelbert Buxbaum]

Sarah Navarro wrote:

> Dick, I also am curiuos about this. I have three clown loaches in a 100
> gallon tank, along with a few miscellanous other fish. They are only about
> 4 or 5 inches long also. I have had them about a year and a half and they
> just don't seem to grow any larger. I was told when I got them that they
> needed to be in a very large tank because they would get very big, but it's
> just not happening yet.

Patience. A clown has a life expectancy of about 30 years, and they grow
all the time, although growth slows down as they become older. What you
buy in a LFS is a toddler.

To OP: clowns tend to be quite shy and nocturnal at first, once they
have adapted to their new home they become bolder, especially if kept in
groups (5 to 6 is the minimum recommended). Clowns should always be
supplied with hide-outs like PVC pipes, coconut shells, peat wood and
the like. Note that clowns can recognise their keeper, when I had some
they would not mind my presence but vanish if a stranger entered the
room.

[Koi-lo]

"Dr Engelbert Buxbaum" > wrote in message
...
Note that clowns can recognise their keeper, when I had some
> they would not mind my presence but vanish if a stranger entered the
> room.
============================
My Malawi cichlids were the same way. Whenever a stranger came into the
house they'd vanish into the rockpile leaving what appeared to be an empty
tank. But if you looked close you could see their beady little eyes in the
darkness of the caves and crevices. They'd all be watching what was going
on from their hidey-holes.
--
Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
Aquariums since 1952
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
NEW PAGE: Aquariums:
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