LFS Owners please read this

[Mike Petro]

I have been keeping fish for 30 years now. During this entire time my
LFS (local fish store) has always accepted trade-ins of fish that were
either incompatible, too large, etc as long as they were healthy
specimens. This has been assumed and expected because how else do you
humanely deal with healthy fish that would otherwise die. I am
accustomed to getting 25-50% of a fishes value in store credit, never
cash, which means that LFS also makes a margin when I use the credit
to buy a fish at full price.

I had some africans that had grown to adult size and were attempting
to kill each other. I separated the adult males and bagged up one of
each to take back to my LFS. I would never have bought 2 males but
with africans it is often impossible to sex them when they are small.
These were beautiful healthy fish. 3 of the 4 fish had actually been
purchased from the same LFS that I was taking them back to. I had
purchased several hundred dollars of fish from this LFS.

When I got to the LFS ( in Danville VA), which was a forty minute
drive from me, the LFS informed me that they now had a policy that
they no longer accepted trade-ins. I explained the situation, that the
fish would fight until death, and that I had bought them there at
their store. They said "Sorry there nothing I can do". I never named a
price so it is not like I was asking too much $.

I have long been struggling between supporting my LFS versus ordering
off the Internet. This has helped me make up my mind. I will never
again buy another fish from a retailer who will not take them back
when there is a problem. I am an experienced aquariest and do not
need help testing water and selecting proper filtration, the only
support I need is a place to return fish when I move or change my tank
or developed comparability issues. If I am not going to get any
support after the sale then I might as well save myself 50% and order
straight from the breeders.

So, I just placed a $300 order directly from a breeder in Florida, it
will arrive at the airport tomorrow. There are also several online
shops that can easily support all of my hardware and dry good needs.
My LFS wont ever see another $ from me.



Mike Petro

remove the "filter" in my email address to reply

[Josh]

True, you can save ALOT of money ordering stuff online for your aquariums,
but what do you do when one of your heaters goes out and you need a new one
right away, what do yo do when your tank gets ich and your out of the
treatment, your not gonna want to order the stuff online and wait 2 days for
it in the mail, True alot of experienced people keep these kinds of things
on hand but there are alot of people who dont. And for anyone that is
starting into this hobby? They need the LFS to go get into the hobby, ask
questions and guide them through the process. I admit the only thing I
usually buy from the LFS now are some more basic things like the Fish and
the Aquarium and frozen foods. But really an aquarium needs to be purchased
through a LFS... there really isint an efficent way of getting one online
and having it shipped. I also personally enjoy seeing the fish before I buy
it for my aquarium.
Id just thought Id put in a little suppot for the LFS but do agree with you
on that return thing for sure.
thanx- Josh
"Bob K." > wrote in message
...
> >My LFS wont ever see another $ from me.
>
> Let them know it, or they won't get the message
> until they're out of business - and even then they
> won't know that lack of service is the reason.
>
> In today's 'cheaper from discounters' - you'd think
> the small stores would realize that they aren't
> needed - except for service the discounters can't give.
>
> Bob
>

[RickS]

Well, I'm not defending your LFS, but it's possible they were not so wrong
in not taking back your fish. Many shops do not want to take back your
problem fish and transfer it to either their own tanks or another customers.
My LFS wouldn't take back some Africans from me for the same reason. He's
had plenty of times when he took them in, sold them to another customer,
only to have them attack or kill the customer's original fish. I couldn't
blame him. He was only being responsible.

And again, at a different LFS last week, they didn't want a really big
clown trigger I have. It would easily sell for two to three hundred. I
told them it was nipping away at some of my other fish and was considering
getting rid of it. Being large and agressive, they didn't want it since it
would need its own tank or only ending up attacking their fish or another
customers. I couldn't blame them either. They are very responsible with
the fish they sell and question and advise every customer before selling a
fish. So, in both my cases, the LFS were only acting in the best interests
of their shop and their customers. Perhaps it's for reasons like this
that they no longer accept trades.

Other than saying they changed their policy, did they provide you with any
sort of explanation as to why? I'd imagine that aside from the above
reasons, that perhaps shops might be worried about bringing in a diseased
fish from a customer as well. Who knows, I'm sure they have their reasons.
It's a shame either way. For me, half the fun is going to all the LFS
nearby and finding the fish I want and sometimes at great deals. Mail order
just doesn't seem fun to me and generally after shipping, not any cheaper.

[Josh]

that is true, I worked at a LFS for a year and sometimes we just couldnt
take fish sometimes, we usually always did, but sometimes our tanks would be
full, and we had to consider for incoming shipments, so yes sometimes they
can have good reasons just for their own sake.
"RickS" > wrote in message
. net...
> Well, I'm not defending your LFS, but it's possible they were not so wrong
> in not taking back your fish. Many shops do not want to take back your
> problem fish and transfer it to either their own tanks or another
customers.
> My LFS wouldn't take back some Africans from me for the same reason. He's
> had plenty of times when he took them in, sold them to another customer,
> only to have them attack or kill the customer's original fish. I couldn't
> blame him. He was only being responsible.
>
> And again, at a different LFS last week, they didn't want a really big
> clown trigger I have. It would easily sell for two to three hundred. I
> told them it was nipping away at some of my other fish and was considering
> getting rid of it. Being large and agressive, they didn't want it since
it
> would need its own tank or only ending up attacking their fish or another
> customers. I couldn't blame them either. They are very responsible with
> the fish they sell and question and advise every customer before selling a
> fish. So, in both my cases, the LFS were only acting in the best
interests
> of their shop and their customers. Perhaps it's for reasons like this
> that they no longer accept trades.
>
> Other than saying they changed their policy, did they provide you with any
> sort of explanation as to why? I'd imagine that aside from the above
> reasons, that perhaps shops might be worried about bringing in a diseased
> fish from a customer as well. Who knows, I'm sure they have their reasons.
> It's a shame either way. For me, half the fun is going to all the LFS
> nearby and finding the fish I want and sometimes at great deals. Mail
order
> just doesn't seem fun to me and generally after shipping, not any cheaper.
>
>

[Bob K.]

BS.. The LFS *cannot* compete on price. That is a given fact.
The online outfits have the lowest prices, the chains are next.

The ONLY thing a LFS can offer that others can't is service.
And anytime the service isn't there, the customers should
leave *AND* let them know why they are disatisfied..

As to supporting my LFS - You bet! I do - as long as they
support me. This is not a charity! I don't *give* to them.
We have a deal, they give me service and I give them my
money. No service, no money.

And service, if you haven't figured it out, is anything the onliines
and chains can't do.

As to "problem fish" NO such animal. There are mismatches.
when people buy fish that don't go in their current population,
or when those fish outgrow their tank.
I've been given mean-ass nasty fish that are at home in my
mean-ass population of CA cichlids or with the mean Africans.


Bob K


>that is true, I worked at a LFS for a year and sometimes we just couldnt
>take fish sometimes, we usually always did, but sometimes our tanks would be
>full, and we had to consider for incoming shipments, so yes sometimes they
>can have good reasons just for their own sake.
>"RickS" > wrote in message
. net...
>> Well, I'm not defending your LFS, but it's possible they were not so wrong
>> in not taking back your fish. Many shops do not want to take back your
>> problem fish and transfer it to either their own tanks or another
>customers.
>> My LFS wouldn't take back some Africans from me for the same reason. He's
>> had plenty of times when he took them in, sold them to another customer,
>> only to have them attack or kill the customer's original fish. I couldn't
>> blame him. He was only being responsible.
>>

[RickS]

As far as problem fish, generally you're right. It's mismatches
Population, size, color, order of introduction, etc. will all affect how a
fish will do in any given tank. However, there are exceptions so I have to
disagree as my experiences have proven otherwise. As a case in point, I
once purchased a really big Manila Puffer and was warned by the shop that
they had it separated because it was attacking other puffers in there tank.
It was fine for about a week and sure enough it started bothering my other
puffers. So, I gave it away to someone with a tank where it was the only
puffer. Other fish were added to their tank after without problems, however
another puffer that was added was immediately attacked and had to be removed
after a couple of days because it was getting to beat up by the original
puffer. Anyway, not to long after, another LFS gave me another Manila
Puffer (bigger too) for free along with some other items I was purchasing.
Probably a trade in too! :) Anyway, this time I had no problems with the
puffer. I've had it for over a year now along with other puffers in the
same tank and it bothers no one, including puffers that came along after it.
So in my eyes, that first puffer was a "problem fish" since it will not get
along with other puffers.

Bottom line though, adding fish is like a box of chocolates. You never
know what you're gonna get! :)

Aside from better prices, some of the many online sites can and do offer
better service than the LFS due to their return policy. Some offer a 30-60
day money back guarantee if you're not satisfied with an equipment purchase.
I've bought several items online, such as pumps, and ended up sending them
back for a refund or a different model, no questions asked. I don't know of
any LFS that offers service like that. Also, online sites e-mail me special
discounts, coupons, etc. No LFS has ever offered to save me money...I have
to haggle, which I hate.

So do I support my local LFS? Sure, they're great for tanks, fish,
live/frozen foods, medications (in an emergency) and other various "as
needed" items.





"Bob K." > wrote in message
...
> BS.. The LFS *cannot* compete on price. That is a given fact.
> The online outfits have the lowest prices, the chains are next.
>
> The ONLY thing a LFS can offer that others can't is service.
> And anytime the service isn't there, the customers should
> leave *AND* let them know why they are disatisfied..
>
> As to supporting my LFS - You bet! I do - as long as they
> support me. This is not a charity! I don't *give* to them.
> We have a deal, they give me service and I give them my
> money. No service, no money.
>
> And service, if you haven't figured it out, is anything the
onliines
> and chains can't do.
>
> As to "problem fish" NO such animal. There are mismatches.
> when people buy fish that don't go in their current population,
> or when those fish outgrow their tank.
> I've been given mean-ass nasty fish that are at home in my
> mean-ass population of CA cichlids or with the mean Africans.
>
>
> Bob K
>
>
> >that is true, I worked at a LFS for a year and sometimes we just couldnt
> >take fish sometimes, we usually always did, but sometimes our tanks would
be
> >full, and we had to consider for incoming shipments, so yes sometimes
they
> >can have good reasons just for their own sake.
> >"RickS" > wrote in message
> . net...
> >> Well, I'm not defending your LFS, but it's possible they were not so
wrong
> >> in not taking back your fish. Many shops do not want to take back your
> >> problem fish and transfer it to either their own tanks or another
> >customers.
> >> My LFS wouldn't take back some Africans from me for the same reason.
He's
> >> had plenty of times when he took them in, sold them to another
customer,
> >> only to have them attack or kill the customer's original fish. I
couldn't
> >> blame him. He was only being responsible.
> >>
>
>

[Jennifer Brooks]

>I will vote with my wallet!
>

And I still maintain that you are not doing yourself or your LFS any favors if
you do not make it perfectly clear to them WHY you are not buying from them
anymore. They are not mind readers. Send them an anonymous letter saying what
you said here. They haven't got a chance of changing their policy if they don't
know customers are upset by it.
Chances are you dealt with an employee, and the person higher up who made the
new policy will never know what happened. Communication, in the right place, is
where you need to direct this. TELL THEM FOR GOODNESS SAKE! (And I don't mean
tell the 19 year old worker behind the counter, let the OWNERS know!)
Jen

[Racf]

"Mike Petro" > wrote in message
...
> Your point is well taken Jen. I fully intend to capture this whole
> thread and send it to the LFS. I don't mind using my name, I am not
> ashamed of my opinion. I might even hand deliver it, if I am in the
> neighborhood.
>
>
> On 12 Aug 2003 18:10:38 GMT, (Jennifer Brooks)
> wrote:
>
> >>I will vote with my wallet!
> >>
> >
> >And I still maintain that you are not doing yourself or your LFS any
favors if
> >you do not make it perfectly clear to them WHY you are not buying
from them
> >anymore. They are not mind readers. Send them an anonymous letter
saying what
> >you said here. They haven't got a chance of changing their policy if
they don't
> >know customers are upset by it.
> >Chances are you dealt with an employee, and the person higher up who
made the
> >new policy will never know what happened. Communication, in the right
place, is
> >where you need to direct this. TELL THEM FOR GOODNESS SAKE! (And I
don't mean
> >tell the 19 year old worker behind the counter, let the OWNERS know!)
> >Jen
>
> Mike Petro
>
> remove the "filter" in my email address to reply

As long as your soliciting opinions:

If I were your LFS I would gladly accept your discards, no credit
though...and chunk them the minute you left the store. Its not worth
the risk.... Its not like you had a fish of any real retail value,
anyway....

[Mike Petro]

Aside from being cruel and heartless to fish that never did you any
harm, how do you know what retail value my fish had? I never mentioned
what they were...

FYI one fish was an adult 6" Aulonocara in full breeding dress and did
represent value, I have paid $40+ for similar fish at this same LFS.
Most LFSs like having peacocks that show full color to demonstrate
what their colorless fry could develope into. Another was a rather
rare Victorian Hap which was also valuable. The other 2 fish were
adult Zebras which are fairly common.

Your attitude would put you in the same category as my LFS, you would
not get my business.


>
>As long as your soliciting opinions:
>
>If I were your LFS I would gladly accept your discards, no credit
>though...and chunk them the minute you left the store. Its not worth
>the risk.... Its not like you had a fish of any real retail value,
>anyway....
>

Mike Petro

remove the "filter" in my email address to reply

[Racf]

"Mike Petro" > wrote in message
...
> Aside from being cruel and heartless to fish that never did you any
> harm, how do you know what retail value my fish had? I never mentioned
> what they were...
>
> FYI one fish was an adult 6" Aulonocara in full breeding dress and did
> represent value, I have paid $40+ for similar fish at this same LFS.
> Most LFSs like having peacocks that show full color to demonstrate
> what their colorless fry could develope into. Another was a rather
> rare Victorian Hap which was also valuable. The other 2 fish were
> adult Zebras which are fairly common.
>
> Your attitude would put you in the same category as my LFS, you would
> not get my business.
>
>
> >
> >As long as your soliciting opinions:
> >
> >If I were your LFS I would gladly accept your discards, no credit
> >though...and chunk them the minute you left the store. Its not worth
> >the risk.... Its not like you had a fish of any real retail value,
> >anyway....
> >
>
> Mike Petro
>
> remove the "filter" in my email address to reply

I had assumed it was an African of some sort. They quickly become a
liability..... If I made a bad guess, that's showbiz....

Sure its inhumane and cruel from some peoples perspectives, but since I
have culled many thousands of fish over the years I have built up a
rather thick skin over it. I do get upset when I hear about dogs and
cats being put to sleep, though...many from people that no longer likes
the little puppy or kitten when it becomes full grown.. So its just a
matter of perspective...

Well, we cannot please everyone......not everyone gets along.....that's
just my opinion like it or not....

[Mike Petro]

I definitely have not developed the ability to simply kill fish,
otherwise I would have flushed them instead of trying to find them a
home.

Naturally you are entitled to your opinion. I am also, and I guess the
days of having a relationship with a LFS are over, it is a sad thing.
It will eventually force the hobbyist into developing the same
indifference to killing fish that you seem to have developed.

Again, I will vote with my wallet...


>
>I had assumed it was an African of some sort. They quickly become a
>liability..... If I made a bad guess, that's showbiz....
>
>Sure its inhumane and cruel from some peoples perspectives, but since I
>have culled many thousands of fish over the years I have built up a
>rather thick skin over it. I do get upset when I hear about dogs and
>cats being put to sleep, though...many from people that no longer likes
>the little puppy or kitten when it becomes full grown.. So its just a
>matter of perspective...
>
>Well, we cannot please everyone......not everyone gets along.....that's
>just my opinion like it or not....
>

Mike Petro

remove the "filter" in my email address to reply

[Bill]

"Mike Petro" > wrote in message
...
> I definitely have not developed the ability to simply kill fish,
> otherwise I would have flushed them instead of trying to find them a
> home.

Flushing is for wimps. Put a stopper in the kitchen sink. Fill it with
water. Place fish in it's new home. Turn on the garbage disposal. and
remove the stopper. The fish will never know what hit him. And it sounds
cool too :)


>
> Naturally you are entitled to your opinion. I am also, and I guess the
> days of having a relationship with a LFS are over, it is a sad thing.
> It will eventually force the hobbyist into developing the same
> indifference to killing fish that you seem to have developed.
>
> Again, I will vote with my wallet...
>
>
> >
> >I had assumed it was an African of some sort. They quickly become a
> >liability..... If I made a bad guess, that's showbiz....
> >
> >Sure its inhumane and cruel from some peoples perspectives, but since I
> >have culled many thousands of fish over the years I have built up a
> >rather thick skin over it. I do get upset when I hear about dogs and
> >cats being put to sleep, though...many from people that no longer likes
> >the little puppy or kitten when it becomes full grown.. So its just a
> >matter of perspective...
> >
> >Well, we cannot please everyone......not everyone gets along.....that's
> >just my opinion like it or not....
> >
>
> Mike Petro
>
> remove the "filter" in my email address to reply

[Zipperhead]

In article >,
says...
>
>Your point is well taken Jen. I fully intend to capture this whole
>thread and send it to the LFS. I don't mind using my name, I am not
>ashamed of my opinion. I might even hand deliver it, if I am in the
>neighborhood.
>
Well show them this post too.

I bet they will be glad to be rid of your sorry ass.

[Mike Petro]

Thank you so much for contributing.....


On Wed, 13 Aug 2003 20:49:46 -0000, (Zipperhead)
wrote:

> I bet they will be glad to be rid of your sorry ass.

Mike Petro

remove the "filter" in my email address to reply

[Jennifer Brooks]

> I bet they will be glad to be rid of your sorry ass.
>

Won't it be nice when the little "Children" go back to school, LOL! Geez!
Jen