Maturing a tank quickly...

[Mariachi]

After making my friends suffer much fish talk and fish gazing two of
them are going to get aquariums of their own. I was wondering what
would be the fastest way for them to mature their tanks? I was thinking
of giving or lending them a cup full of gravel..and maybe the ceramic
turtle thats in my tank at the moment..would that help at all? I put a
small seperate peice of filter material into my filter today so the
bacteria will grow on it and I was going to give it to my friend to
help the bacteria grow. Would that help at all? If we did all of the
above how soon do you think they can have fish? Thanks in advance!

[Charles]

On 3 Jan 2006 01:46:10 -0800, "Mariachi" > wrote:

>After making my friends suffer much fish talk and fish gazing two of
>them are going to get aquariums of their own. I was wondering what
>would be the fastest way for them to mature their tanks? I was thinking
>of giving or lending them a cup full of gravel..and maybe the ceramic
>turtle thats in my tank at the moment..would that help at all? I put a
>small seperate peice of filter material into my filter today so the
>bacteria will grow on it and I was going to give it to my friend to
>help the bacteria grow. Would that help at all? If we did all of the
>above how soon do you think they can have fish? Thanks in advance!


The quickest way I've set up tanks is with some amquel and a bunch of
egeria. I put fish in as soon as I want, same day usually. the
egeria will have bacteria and algae growing on it, these will eat
ammonia promptly. It sort of depends on what kind of fish you are
going to add, I start the load out low.

[Gill Passman]

Mariachi wrote:
> After making my friends suffer much fish talk and fish gazing two of
> them are going to get aquariums of their own. I was wondering what
> would be the fastest way for them to mature their tanks? I was thinking
> of giving or lending them a cup full of gravel..and maybe the ceramic
> turtle thats in my tank at the moment..would that help at all? I put a
> small seperate peice of filter material into my filter today so the
> bacteria will grow on it and I was going to give it to my friend to
> help the bacteria grow. Would that help at all? If we did all of the
> above how soon do you think they can have fish? Thanks in advance!
>
Another thing that you could do is hang their filters in your tank, then
give them these along with some gravel, ornaments etc. I would still get
them to add fish slowly though and keep a close check on the ammonia and
nitrites.

Gill

[Mariachi]

Will Elodea do? elodea & egeria are the same thing or very similar
right?

I think I'll suggest them to buy their filters now so i can "break it
in" for them.

[Charles]

On 3 Jan 2006 02:49:33 -0800, "Mariachi" > wrote:

>Will Elodea do? elodea & egeria are the same thing or very similar
>right?
>
>I think I'll suggest them to buy their filters now so i can "break it
>in" for them.


Elodea and egeria are almost the same thing, egeria is often called
elodia. there are subtle differences in the flower, which I can't
see.

anacharis is a common name for both.

[Steve]

Mariachi wrote:
> Will Elodea do? elodea & egeria are the same thing or very similar
> right?
>
> I think I'll suggest them to buy their filters now so i can "break it
> in" for them.
>

The advice to "run in" the new filters on your established aquarium is
excellent.

Steve

[CanadianCray]

If your in the US throw in some Biospira.


"Mariachi" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> After making my friends suffer much fish talk and fish gazing two of
> them are going to get aquariums of their own. I was wondering what
> would be the fastest way for them to mature their tanks? I was thinking
> of giving or lending them a cup full of gravel..and maybe the ceramic
> turtle thats in my tank at the moment..would that help at all? I put a
> small seperate peice of filter material into my filter today so the
> bacteria will grow on it and I was going to give it to my friend to
> help the bacteria grow. Would that help at all? If we did all of the
> above how soon do you think they can have fish? Thanks in advance!
>

[Koi-lo]

"Mariachi" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> Will Elodea do? elodea & egeria are the same thing or very similar
> right?
>
> I think I'll suggest them to buy their filters now so i can "break it
> in" for them.
=============================
Excellent idea! :-) I'd take that route.
--
Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
Aquariums since 1952
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
NEW PAGE: Aquariums:
http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastadaisy/Aquarium-Page4.html
http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastadaisy
~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>

[CanadianCray]

Don't forget that you tank can only support a limited amount of bacteria &
by adding new filters you will be spreading that load over all the filters.
So when you remove them in a couple of weeks or whatever you can get a
mini-cycle.

"Koi-lo" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Mariachi" > wrote in message
> oups.com...
>> Will Elodea do? elodea & egeria are the same thing or very similar
>> right?
>>
>> I think I'll suggest them to buy their filters now so i can "break it
>> in" for them.
> =============================
> Excellent idea! :-) I'd take that route.
> --
> Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
> Aquariums since 1952
> My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
> NEW PAGE: Aquariums:
> http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastadaisy/Aquarium-Page4.html
> http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastadaisy
> ~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>
>
>
>

[Nathan Manship]

My LFS told me to use water from an existing tank. She gave me 12-15 gallons
from one of her existing tanks and I then filled it up using my own
water(conditioned of course). She said this would help speed up the process,
but I agree add fish slowly.


"Mariachi" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> After making my friends suffer much fish talk and fish gazing two of
> them are going to get aquariums of their own. I was wondering what
> would be the fastest way for them to mature their tanks? I was thinking
> of giving or lending them a cup full of gravel..and maybe the ceramic
> turtle thats in my tank at the moment..would that help at all? I put a
> small seperate peice of filter material into my filter today so the
> bacteria will grow on it and I was going to give it to my friend to
> help the bacteria grow. Would that help at all? If we did all of the
> above how soon do you think they can have fish? Thanks in advance!
>

[Larry Blanchard]

Charles wrote:

> The quickest way I've set up tanks is with some amquel and a bunch of
> egeria.**I*put*fish*in*as*soon*as*I*want,*same*day *usually.**the
> egeria will have bacteria and algae growing on it, these will eat
> ammonia promptly.**It*sort*of*depends*on*what*kind*of*fish *you*are
> going to add, I start the load out low.

I have to agree with the plant route. I was really worried when my
first tank showed no signs of cycling - I had no ammonia, no nitrites,
just nitrates. Very disconcerting to a beginner :-). I finally
figured out the plants were gobbling the ammonia and nitrites as fast
as they were produced.

But the low beginning fish load is a good precautionary measure - never
hurts to be cautious.

--
It's turtles, all the way down

[Marco Schwarz]

Hi..

> the egeria will have bacteria and algae growing
> on it, these will eat ammonia promptly.

There is a(n) NH3-NH4+-equilibrum relating to PH. The most
aquaria plants are able to use NH4+ directly, so aquaria
fertilizers often contain NH4+.

> It sort of depends on what kind of fish
> you are going to add,

Kind of fish, number of fish, daily fish food input, tank
content in liter/gallon, plant bio mass, and so on..

Well, nitrosomas need NH3/NH4+ to multiply and to produce
NO2, and nitrobacter need NO2 to multiply and produce NO3.

Is a(n) NH3/NH4+ eater like elodea really a good choice for
establishing a stable tank?

--
cu
Marco

[Elaine T]

Marco Schwarz wrote:
> Hi..
>
>
>>the egeria will have bacteria and algae growing
>>on it, these will eat ammonia promptly.
>
>
> There is a(n) NH3-NH4+-equilibrum relating to PH. The most
> aquaria plants are able to use NH4+ directly, so aquaria
> fertilizers often contain NH4+.

Huh? I've never used a fertilizer with NH4+ in an aquarium with fish or
inverts and never would. Every aquarium fertilizer I've ever bought or
made contains N03- because of the toxicity issues with NH4+.

>>It sort of depends on what kind of fish
>>you are going to add,
>
>
> Kind of fish, number of fish, daily fish food input, tank
> content in liter/gallon, plant bio mass, and so on..
>
> Well, nitrosomas need NH3/NH4+ to multiply and to produce
> NO2, and nitrobacter need NO2 to multiply and produce NO3.
>
> Is a(n) NH3/NH4+ eater like elodea really a good choice for
> establishing a stable tank?

Colonies of nitrobacter and nitrosomas live on plant leaves, enjoying
the high oxygen environment. That's how "Dutch" aquaria stay stable.
Plants give tremendous surface area for biofiltration as well as
directly absorbing ammonia. I've always found all types of plants to be
a very good way to establish biofiltration in a new aquarium,
particularly if they come from a tank with some fish.

However, OP would certainly help his friends' tanks to cycle with a cup
of gravel.

--
Elaine T __
http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><
rec.aquaria.* FAQ http://faq.thekrib.com

[Koi-lo]

"Marco Schwarz" > wrote in message
...
> Is a(n) NH3/NH4+ eater like elodea really a good choice for
> establishing a stable tank?
======================================
Yes,... so is hornwart. Both thrive in rich alkaline water.
--

Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
Aquariums since 1952
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
NEW PAGE: Aquariums:
http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastadaisy/Aquarium-Page4.html
http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastadaisy
~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>

[Marco Schwarz]

Hi..

>> There is a(n) NH3-NH4+-equilibrum relating to PH. The
>> most aquaria plants are able to use NH4+ directly, so
>> aquaria fertilizers often contain NH4+.
> Huh? I've never used a fertilizer with NH4+ in an
> aquarium with fish or
> inverts and never would. Every aquarium fertilizer I've
> ever bought or made contains N03- because of the toxicity
> issues with NH4+.

NH4+ (salt!) != ammonia.

> Colonies of nitrobacter and nitrosomas live on plant
> leaves, enjoying
> the high oxygen environment. That's how "Dutch" aquaria
> stay stable. Plants give tremendous surface area for
> biofiltration as well as
> directly absorbing ammonia. I've always found all types
> of plants to be a very good way to establish biofiltration
> in a new aquarium, particularly if they come from a tank
> with some fish.

Well, I know that nitrifying bacteria settle on plants, too.

But a bird-mother with one worm is only able to feed one
bird-child (elodea _or_ nitrosomas).

At first I personally would try to establish nitrosomas and
nitrobacter.

> However, OP would certainly help his friends' tanks to
> cycle with a cup of gravel.

Gravel mud or filter mud.
--
cu
Marco

[Rocco Moretti]

Marco Schwarz wrote:

> NH4+ (salt!) != ammonia.

Right, but after it dissolves and equilibrates to the tank's pH (< 1s),
the difference between adding it as NH3 or as NH4+ to a tank is
absolutely nothing. (Assuming you didn't eat up all of the buffer by the
addition.)

> But a bird-mother with one worm is only able to feed one
> bird-child (elodea _or_ nitrosomas).
>
> At first I personally would try to establish nitrosomas and
> nitrobacter.

As long as you maintain the plants in the tank, what does it matter
which organism eats up the ammonia?

Granted, if you rip the elodia out of the tank, you'll loose the ammonia
removing capacity, but that's equivalent to changing the gravel, or
removing a portion of the filter, or rinsing the filter media in
chlorinated tap water.

[NetMax]

"Marco Schwarz" > wrote in message
...
> Hi..
>
>> the egeria will have bacteria and algae growing
>> on it, these will eat ammonia promptly.
>
> There is a(n) NH3-NH4+-equilibrum relating to PH. The most
> aquaria plants are able to use NH4+ directly, so aquaria
> fertilizers often contain NH4+.
>
>> It sort of depends on what kind of fish
>> you are going to add,
>
> Kind of fish, number of fish, daily fish food input, tank
> content in liter/gallon, plant bio mass, and so on..
>
> Well, nitrosomas need NH3/NH4+ to multiply and to produce
> NO2, and nitrobacter need NO2 to multiply and produce NO3.

Recent research dismissed nitrobacter as the nitrite oxidizer in freshwater
aquaria, and pointed instead to nitrospira sp.
http://pubmed-central.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=124703
quote "In total, the data suggest that Nitrobacter winogradskyi and close
relatives were not the dominant nitrite-oxidizing bacteria in freshwater
aquaria. Instead, nitrite oxidation in freshwater aquaria appeared to be
mediated by bacteria closely related to Nitrospira moscoviensis and
Nitrospira marina."

Just FYI, as it really makes little difference to our procedures or
recommendations.

> Is a(n) NH3/NH4+ eater like elodea really a good choice for
> establishing a stable tank?

Theoretically, it shouldn't, as it's competing for the same food source
(ammonia), however nature has allowed these to co-exist in freshwater, so
one does not push the other out entirely. If the tank was going to be
unplanted and there was no concern of significant spiking, then it might be
worthwhile to do without plants (makes the test measurements much more
instructive). If the tank was going to be planted, then the biological
filtering will just adjust according to the plant mix. If it really doesn't
make any difference, then having the extra plant life tends to reduce the
magnitude of the spikes (by adding some bacteria from the leaf's surface,
and the plant's own consumption if it becomes active enough). jmo, and very
dependant on the set-up.

In theory, the tank should cycle faster, as the bacteria stops at an earlier
reproduction cycle, and if the plants are then removed, it mini-cycles, but
there is far less catch up, and the plant-bacteria combination would have
weathered the worst stages. Mini-cycles typically last very short periods
(8 hours to double the culture's population in lab tests), so the fish's
exposure is significantly reduced, and to lower concentration levels :).
--
www.NetMax.tk


> --
> cu
> Marco

[Marco Schwarz]

Hi..

>> Is a(n) NH3/NH4+ eater like elodea really a good choice
>> for establishing a stable tank?
> Yes,... so is hornwart. Both thrive in rich alkaline
> water.

Elodea in less alkaline water, too. Elodea canadensis,
Egeria densa and hornwart (Ceratophyllum demensum, what we
call "hornkraut") are my very best aquatic friends! :-)

--
cu
Marco

[NetMax]

From what I've read, the water column holds relatively little in the way
of nitrifying bacteria, at least as compared to filter media.
--
www.NetMax.tk

"Nathan Manship" > wrote in message
...
> My LFS told me to use water from an existing tank. She gave me 12-15
> gallons
> from one of her existing tanks and I then filled it up using my own
> water(conditioned of course). She said this would help speed up the
> process,
> but I agree add fish slowly.
>
>
> "Mariachi" > wrote in message
> oups.com...
>> After making my friends suffer much fish talk and fish gazing two of
>> them are going to get aquariums of their own. I was wondering what
>> would be the fastest way for them to mature their tanks? I was
>> thinking
>> of giving or lending them a cup full of gravel..and maybe the ceramic
>> turtle thats in my tank at the moment..would that help at all? I put a
>> small seperate peice of filter material into my filter today so the
>> bacteria will grow on it and I was going to give it to my friend to
>> help the bacteria grow. Would that help at all? If we did all of the
>> above how soon do you think they can have fish? Thanks in advance!

[Mariachi]

Oh crap..i just typed this big long post and then hit cancel..here we
go again!

Thanks to you all for all your suggestions/advice. We are going to get
my friends tank today!! In like 1 hour. And I've decided to go with the
following plan:

1. Get some Elodia
2. Lend her my turtle thingy
3, Give her a cup of gravel
4. Give her some old tank water
5. Put that bacterial growing culture thing in the new tank
6. Give her the little bit of filter material I put in my filter
yesterday (that probably won't help much but anyways)
7. Make sure she only gets like 2 fish or something.

And hopefully everything will be alright..right???...RIGHT?!?!..hehe

Anyawy how often should she change the water in the beginning...every
other day if she's only doing 10-20%? or less?

Thanks!!

[Charles]

On 3 Jan 2006 21:29:26 -0800, "Mariachi" > wrote:

>Oh crap..i just typed this big long post and then hit cancel..here we
>go again!
>
>Thanks to you all for all your suggestions/advice. We are going to get
>my friends tank today!! In like 1 hour. And I've decided to go with the
>following plan:
>
>1. Get some Elodia
>2. Lend her my turtle thingy
>3, Give her a cup of gravel
>4. Give her some old tank water
>5. Put that bacterial growing culture thing in the new tank
>6. Give her the little bit of filter material I put in my filter
>yesterday (that probably won't help much but anyways)
>7. Make sure she only gets like 2 fish or something.
>
>And hopefully everything will be alright..right???...RIGHT?!?!..hehe
>
>Anyawy how often should she change the water in the beginning...every
>other day if she's only doing 10-20%? or less?
>
>Thanks!!


Get her an ammonia test kit, might as well start off right.
Everything else sounds good.

[Marco Schwarz]

Hi..

> Right, but after it dissolves and equilibrates to the
> tank's pH (< 1s), the difference between adding it as NH3
> or as NH4+ to a tank is absolutely nothing. (Assuming you
> didn't eat up all of the buffer by the addition.)

I'll think about that! I've made some experience to "deer
horn salt" in plant aquaria, daily added. It showed _no_
stormily or poison NH3 reactions, and contain NH4HCO3,
(NH4)2CO3, NH4CO2NH2. Personally I imagine these NH4+_salts
influence the NH3/NH4+ equilibrum and react through the
"NH3/NH4 interface" depending on PH.

>> At first I personally would try to establish nitrosomas
>> and nitrobacter.
> As long as you maintain the plants in the tank, what does
> it matter which organism eats up the ammonia?

Interesting question, but I think it's a question of
quantity, too.

A few elodea is not able to keep a typical fish tank stable,
and that's the reason why fish keeper generally add filter
technology.

> Granted, if you rip the elodia out of the tank, you'll
> loose the ammonia removing capacity,

A fishless start need no ammonia removing capacity.

> but that's equivalent
> to changing the gravel, or removing a portion of the
> filter, or rinsing the filter media in chlorinated tap
> water.

Any effect to the system depend on fish mass, daily food
mass, filter volume and efficiency of bacteria in filter,
gravel, other substrates...

See above-mentioned.
--
cu
Marco

[Marco Schwarz]

Hi..

[...]
> Recent research dismissed nitrobacter as the nitrite
> oxidizer in freshwater aquaria, and pointed instead to
> nitrospira sp.

Thanks. You know that I know ( *g* ) that nitrobacter can be
displaced by other bacteria doing the same job. Displacing
seem to be very common in bacteria scene. ;-)

What species finally dominate should also depend on the
conditions (kind of food (organic or anorganic food), kind
of tap water, organic or anorganic substrate, bacteria
quantity and relation to each other, bacteria enemies, time
factor, water flow, filter volume, filter flow, and so on).

Might nitrospira be common in continental europe, too?

[...nitrospira versus nitrobacter...]
> Just FYI, as it really makes little difference to our
> procedures or recommendations.

I agree, both need NO2 from AOB, and AOB need NH3/NH4+ to
produce NO2.

>> Is a(n) NH3/NH4+ eater like elodea really a good choice
>> for establishing a stable tank?

> Theoretically, it shouldn't, as it's competing for the
> same food source (ammonia), however nature has allowed
> these to co-exist in freshwater, so
> one does not push the other out entirely. If the tank was
> going to be unplanted and there was no concern of
> significant spiking, then it might be worthwhile to do
> without plants (makes the test measurements much more
> instructive). If the tank was going to be planted, then
> the biological
> filtering will just adjust according to the plant mix. If
> it really doesn't make any difference, then having the
> extra plant life tends to reduce the magnitude of the
> spikes (by adding some bacteria from the leaf's surface,
> and the plant's own consumption if it becomes active
> enough). jmo, and very dependant on the set-up.
> In theory, the tank should cycle faster, as the bacteria
> stops at an earlier reproduction cycle, and if the plants
> are then removed, it mini-cycles, but there is far less
> catch up, and the plant-bacteria combination would have
> weathered the worst stages. Mini-cycles typically last
> very short periods (8 hours to double the culture's
> population in lab tests), so the fish's exposure is
> significantly reduced, and to lower concentration levels
> :).

If filter mud is not available, I recommend fishless start
with plants, an organic feeding (directly (bacteria) or
indirectly (snails)) and a careful anorganic fertilization
(plants).
--
cu
Marco

[Marco Schwarz]

> Ceratophyllum demensum,
-n+r
--
cu
Marco

[Mariachi]

ammonia test kit? is that the most important one to have? I don't have
any test kits..except the crappy PH one that I never use. Does that
mean I should get an ammonia one too? should I get others? like what is
the most basic/essential test kits to have?

My friend didn't end up getting any fish she got a 24"X12'X15' tank (I
might have put those numbers in the wrong order but you get the idea)
with river sand. I gave her a bit of filter material and some gravel.
She didnt' want my turtle..said it had freaky looking eyes. And didn't
get any Elodias either. But she doesn't have any fish at the moment so
that's no big deal.

Question: does she need to throw food in there to get the bacteria
growing?

[NetMax]

"Mariachi" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> ammonia test kit? is that the most important one to have? I don't have
> any test kits..except the crappy PH one that I never use. Does that
> mean I should get an ammonia one too? should I get others? like what is
> the most basic/essential test kits to have?

Ammonia & nitrite test kits are *very* useful for the first 4 to 6 weeks,
and then if everything goes well, they will collect dust until they
expire.

I think the Krib has a page which talks about test kits.
http://faq.thekrib.com/begin.html You might want to keep it simple for
now. Even pet shops can sometimes do your ammonia/nitrite testing, if
you don't mind going there frequently (easier to have the test kit).

> My friend didn't end up getting any fish she got a 24"X12'X15' tank (I
> might have put those numbers in the wrong order but you get the idea)

It's 18.7g even if you get the numbers in the wrong order ;~).

> with river sand. I gave her a bit of filter material and some gravel.
> She didnt' want my turtle..said it had freaky looking eyes. And didn't
> get any Elodias either. But she doesn't have any fish at the moment so
> that's no big deal.
>
> Question: does she need to throw food in there to get the bacteria
> growing?

That would be a good idea, but not too much. No point in getting the
tank's water cloudy. In the old days, fish food was used to cycle tanks,
as were grocery store shrimp and a few other methods.

Try not to do water changes while the tank is cycling, unless there are
fish in there, and you need to keep the levels from getting toxic.
--
www.NetMax.tk

[Koi-lo]

"Mariachi" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> ammonia test kit? is that the most important one to have? I don't have
> any test kits..except the crappy PH one that I never use. Does that
> mean I should get an ammonia one too? should I get others? like what is
> the most basic/essential test kits to have?

I wouldn't be without a PH, ammonia, nitrite and nitrate kit. This time,
rather than purchase the kits individually I picked up Jungle's 5-Test
Quickdip-Strips. I do keep extra ammonia and nitrite kits as these are the
tests I do the most.

> My friend didn't end up getting any fish she got a 24"X12'X15' tank (I
> might have put those numbers in the wrong order but you get the idea)
> with river sand. I gave her a bit of filter material and some gravel.
> She didnt' want my turtle..said it had freaky looking eyes. And didn't
> get any Elodias either. But she doesn't have any fish at the moment so
> that's no big deal.
>
> Question: does she need to throw food in there to get the bacteria
> growing?

Without fish she needs to do something to get the bacteria started......

--

Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
Aquariums since 1952
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
NEW PAGE: Aquariums:
http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastadaisy/Aquarium-Page4.html
http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastadaisy
~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>

[Charles]

On 4 Jan 2006 03:16:10 -0800, "Mariachi" > wrote:

>ammonia test kit? is that the most important one to have? I don't have
>any test kits..except the crappy PH one that I never use. Does that
>mean I should get an ammonia one too? should I get others? like what is
>the most basic/essential test kits to have?
>
>My friend didn't end up getting any fish she got a 24"X12'X15' tank (I
>might have put those numbers in the wrong order but you get the idea)
>with river sand. I gave her a bit of filter material and some gravel.
>She didnt' want my turtle..said it had freaky looking eyes. And didn't
>get any Elodias either. But she doesn't have any fish at the moment so
>that's no big deal.
>
>Question: does she need to throw food in there to get the bacteria
>growing?


ammonia test kit to get started. Nitrite/nitrate kits if you want to
watch the cycle run it's course. PH is good once, unless you are
trying to do something exotic. Water hardness is good to know when
trying to figure out which fish you can keep. All kinds of kits when
you get into water gardening and want to maximize the plant growth.

It depends on how much of a chemist you want to be, if you just want
to keep fish and are willing to stick with what does well in hour
water, then you don't really need any kits.

Back to the start of the thread, the goal was to get going quickly.
fishless cycle takes 4 to 6 weeks, not quick by my standards.

[NetMax]

"Charles" > wrote in message
...
> On 4 Jan 2006 03:16:10 -0800, "Mariachi" > wrote:
<snip>
> Back to the start of the thread, the goal was to get going quickly.
> fishless cycle takes 4 to 6 weeks, not quick by my standards.

Generally, cycling with fish takes slightly longer than fishless cycling
and is a little more tense (watching for their health). What makes a
significant difference to cycling time is the type and amount of
bacterial seeding (not whether there are or aren't fish in there).
--
www.NetMax.tk

[Charles]

On Thu, 5 Jan 2006 00:49:54 -0500, "NetMax"
> wrote:

>"Charles" > wrote in message
...
>> On 4 Jan 2006 03:16:10 -0800, "Mariachi" > wrote:
><snip>
>> Back to the start of the thread, the goal was to get going quickly.
>> fishless cycle takes 4 to 6 weeks, not quick by my standards.
>
>Generally, cycling with fish takes slightly longer than fishless cycling
>and is a little more tense (watching for their health). What makes a
>significant difference to cycling time is the type and amount of
>bacterial seeding (not whether there are or aren't fish in there).


I've never watched the whole cycle closely. I use the plants trick.

I did check one tank I seemed to be having trouble with about 3 weeks
after I set it up, nh4 0, no2 0, no3 10 ppm.

I do a lot of things wrong, either I'm lucky or I have tough fish.

[[email protected]]

Hi group,
I just went through this ordeal with a brand new twenty, and no source for
seeding. I also had two goldfish, (that the tank was meant for), not just
cheap throw away fish. These were my kids pets, and they have names, so it
was important to keep them alive. I tried everything that was suggested
for about two months, and could never get past the nitrite spike. The lady
at my LFS told me the system was probably crashing on itself, which I
still don't really understand. But she seamed knowledgeable. Then I
followed another piece of advice from her that really worked.
I was referred to the Marineland web site, and told to read the Doctors
pages on Bio Spira. I did this, and what he was saying, and his data
indicated, sounded logical. What I was doing was not working (including
getting some old gravel from the store). So I took the plunge, added some
salt, and bought some of the Bio Spira. Within 3 days the tank was crystal
clear, Zero Nitrites, Zero Amonia, and the fish were happy as can be.
I plan to get a floor creeking tank soon, and I will deffinately use this
stuff again. It was worth every cent it cost, if for no other reason than
NOT having to explain to my kid how I killed her pets.
By the way . . . I have no affiliation with this company in any way. The
bottom line is simply this: This Doctor worked on sound scientific DNA
principles instead of myths and legends. I'm sure all of this is based in
good intentions, but in the end, He produced a proven product, and has the
data and results to back it up. His product did for me in 3 days, what I
couldn't do in two months. I'm sold forever on this stuff!

With respect and gratitude for the efforts,
--
Kevin

[CanadianCray]

Yes Bio-spira is great stuff if it is fresh & stored properly at the store.

Too bad we can't get it in Canada yet.

> wrote in message
...
> Hi group,
> I just went through this ordeal with a brand new twenty, and no source
> for
> seeding. I also had two goldfish, (that the tank was meant for), not just
> cheap throw away fish. These were my kids pets, and they have names, so
> it
> was important to keep them alive. I tried everything that was suggested
> for about two months, and could never get past the nitrite spike. The
> lady
> at my LFS told me the system was probably crashing on itself, which I
> still don't really understand. But she seamed knowledgeable. Then I
> followed another piece of advice from her that really worked.
> I was referred to the Marineland web site, and told to read the Doctors
> pages on Bio Spira. I did this, and what he was saying, and his data
> indicated, sounded logical. What I was doing was not working (including
> getting some old gravel from the store). So I took the plunge, added some
> salt, and bought some of the Bio Spira. Within 3 days the tank was
> crystal
> clear, Zero Nitrites, Zero Amonia, and the fish were happy as can be.
> I plan to get a floor creeking tank soon, and I will deffinately use this
> stuff again. It was worth every cent it cost, if for no other reason than
> NOT having to explain to my kid how I killed her pets.
> By the way . . . I have no affiliation with this company in any way. The
> bottom line is simply this: This Doctor worked on sound scientific DNA
> principles instead of myths and legends. I'm sure all of this is based in
> good intentions, but in the end, He produced a proven product, and has
> the
> data and results to back it up. His product did for me in 3 days, what I
> couldn't do in two months. I'm sold forever on this stuff!
>
> With respect and gratitude for the efforts,
> --
> Kevin

[Mark Henry]

Mariachi,

When I start a new FW tank I seed it from one of my others in a three
step process:

1. I place about 1 cup of substrate from an existing tank into a clean
nylon stocking (man, does my wife hate it when I do that) and set the
sock on top of the substrate in the new tank.

2. I cut a 1" square piece of floss from a filter in an existing tank
and then safety pin it to the filter in the new tank.

3. I vacumm siphone the gravel in an existing tank and take 2-3 cups of
that nasty "mop bucket water" (at least that's what it looks like) and
pour that into the tank. It will make the water cloudy for a few minutes
(usually 15-20) then it will spread out and either settle into the
substrate, or get caught in the filter.

Sounds like a lot to do, but I can cycle a tank and have it ready for a
heavy load very quickly with this method. I also use this method when I
have to take my fish "on the road" and use someone else's tank for
display. It ensures that the same microbes are in the display tank as
they were used to in the home tank.

mark h

[Flash Wilson]

On Sun, 08 Jan 2006 16:04:10 GMT, Mark Henry > wrote:
>When I start a new FW tank I seed it from one of my others in a three
>step process:

Indeed. I've done similar to get a tank matured in 5 days:
http://www.gorge.org/fish/beatingcycle.shtml


--
Flash Wilson - Web Design & Mastery - 0870 401 4061 / 07939 579090
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Work: www.wdam.co.uk Personal: www.gorge.org

[Mariachi]

Thanks everyone for your responses. My friend's tank is set up and
she's had fish in it for 3 days now..(she tells me nothing has died) so
all is well.

[bassett]

Yet.

"Mariachi" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> Thanks everyone for your responses. My friend's tank is set up and
> she's had fish in it for 3 days now..(she tells me nothing has died) so
> all is well.
>

[Mariachi]

....or she could just be lying to me...