Help with inherited reef tank

[Charles Henderson]

A friend of mine set up a very nice 90 gal. reef system, populated it,
then gradually got so busy traveling for business, the system died. He
made an effort to save the live rock by putting it in an
unlit-but-aerated Rubbermaid can. Naturally everything died but the
bacteria in the rock.

After a few months, he put the rock back in the tank, and there
everything sat for more months, growing slime algae, etc...

Two weeks ago, he realized that about 200 of his closest friends were
coming over for his 10th Annual Christmas Caroling Party, and he wanted
the tank behind the bar in the basement to be more, ummm, attractive. So
he called an Aquarium maintenance service and got a quote for getting
the tank ship-shape plus monthly maintenance, then emailed me and said
he'd rather give the money to me, if I were interested.

Since I'm at a point where my living arrangements are subject to change
on short notice and I can't really have a tank of my own, and couldn't
afford the top-notch equipment he's got on his even if I did... well,
for me it's an opportunity to pursure a hobby of mine at a level I
couldn't afford, at someone else's expense!

So I said, "Sure!"

The main problem here was the very short deadline. It had me doing
things I wouldn't ordinarily do. (If there's a drawback to pursuing your
hobby at someone else's expense, it's that you have to keep in mind that
you're not the boss!) But my friend's a very reasonable fellow and he's
allowed me to do pretty much as I please, within certain widely-placed
guidelines. But the damn deadline...

Long story short, The Christmas Party was Saturday night, the tank
looked marvelous - crystal-clear with happy-looking fish and critters,
but now I've got animals in a tank with water chemistry that's not quite
right.

Temp. 79
Salinity 1.019
PH 7.9
Ammonia 0

Haven't tested for Nitrite/Nitrate yet.

The animals:

4 Green Chromis
2 Clarkii Clowns
2 Yellowtail Blue Damsels
1 Coral Beauty (medium)
1 Yellow Tang (small)
2 Cleaner Shrimp
6 Blue Leg Hermits

The tank is devoid of algae at this point, and there is no substrate.
Just the old rock that's nothing more than base rock now, with just the
bacteria living in it. I plan to add more live rock to re-seed the tank
with algaes and other micro-critters, plus about a half-inch of
aragonite toward the front of the tank for those that like to forage on
the bottom.

So, what are your suggestions for getting the water chemistry right?
Bring the PH up first? How best to do that? Add the aragonite *first*,
as a buffer? There's a kalkwasser generator in the cabinet that's yet to
be brought online...

I'll be doing more-frequent-than-usual water changes for a time, maybe
10 percent a week for the next few weeks, and I'll gradually raise the
salinity to 1.021 that way.

But first, I await your wisdom.

My humble thanks,

--Charlie Henderson

[Chris Taylor]

Bring the SG/Salinity up first, this should improve the PH. You'll need to
do it slowly, ie. 1/1000 point per day over a few days. Not sure what the
conventional wisdom dictates regarding the final salinity level in your part
of the world; your LFS should be able to advise on their conditions as a
guideline. My tank stays at about 1.024.

Once the Salinity is good you can focus on a good buffer if needed, I use
Tropic Marin triple buffer which costs about 11 British Pounds or about U$19
at present exch. rates. You'll need a test kit to measure the calcium and
alkalinity/hardness. Again you need to make smallish adjustments here and
adjust one with consideration to the other.

Hope this helps.

Regards

Chris


"Charles Henderson" > wrote in message
...
>
> Temp. 79
> Salinity 1.019
> PH 7.9
> Ammonia 0

> So, what are your suggestions for getting the water chemistry right?
> Bring the PH up first? How best to do that? Add the aragonite *first*,
> as a buffer? There's a kalkwasser generator in the cabinet that's yet to
> be brought online...

[Teri G]

Charlie,

It doesn't sound as if you are too far away from where you need to be.
See more below...

Charles Henderson wrote:
> > The main problem here was the very short deadline. It had me doing
> things I wouldn't ordinarily do. (If there's a drawback to pursuing your
> hobby at someone else's expense, it's that you have to keep in mind that
> you're not the boss!) But my friend's a very reasonable fellow and he's
> allowed me to do pretty much as I please, within certain widely-placed
> guidelines. But the damn deadline...

Keep a close eye on the A/N/N readings. Two weeks isn't really enough
time for a tank to properly cycle, and you will likely see at least a
small cycle. If you start to get Ammonia/Nitrite readings ... do water
changes.
>
> Long story short, The Christmas Party was Saturday night, the tank
> looked marvelous - crystal-clear with happy-looking fish and critters,
> but now I've got animals in a tank with water chemistry that's not quite
> right.
>
> Temp. 79
> Salinity 1.019
> PH 7.9
> Ammonia 0
>
> Haven't tested for Nitrite/Nitrate yet.
>
> The animals:
>
> 4 Green Chromis
> 2 Clarkii Clowns
> 2 Yellowtail Blue Damsels
> 1 Coral Beauty (medium)
> 1 Yellow Tang (small)
> 2 Cleaner Shrimp
> 6 Blue Leg Hermits
>
> The tank is devoid of algae at this point, and there is no substrate.
> Just the old rock that's nothing more than base rock now, with just the
> bacteria living in it. I plan to add more live rock to re-seed the tank
> with algaes and other micro-critters, plus about a half-inch of
> aragonite toward the front of the tank for those that like to forage on
> the bottom.

I wouldn't put any algaes in the display tank. They can become very
invasive and hard to control. If you add more LR, be sure that it is
fully cured before adding, or again, you'll spark a cycle.
>
> So, what are your suggestions for getting the water chemistry right?
> Bring the PH up first? How best to do that? Add the aragonite *first*,
> as a buffer? There's a kalkwasser generator in the cabinet that's yet to
> be brought online...

I wouldn't mess with the chemistry via additives. The pH is a bit low,
but not dangerously. The salinity is low, but where you want it depends
on whether you're looking at a reef tank, or fish-only. Kalkwasser is a
great mechanism to maintain calcium, alk, & pH.
>
> I'll be doing more-frequent-than-usual water changes for a time, maybe
> 10 percent a week for the next few weeks, and I'll gradually raise the
> salinity to 1.021 that way.

If you're going to do fish-only, I'd gradually (over the course of a
couple weeks), raise the salinity to 1.023. If you're aiming for a
*reef* tank, you should be at 1.025 - 1.026. Also, if you'll be keeping
mobile invertebrates (snails, crabs, etc.), then you'll need to be
around 1.025. The *key* is raising it slowly.

After you wait out any potential cycle, and do a couple water changes to
bring your parameters in check, you might want to think about beefing up
your cleaner crew considerably - a bunch of different snails, maybe a
brittle or serpent star, etc.

Here is a link to my personal site, I have quite a few reference/setup
articles on here:

http://home.comcast.net/~76fxe/

Also, here is the reef forum/commmunity that I run - you are welcome to
visit any time - lots of great information and helpful members:

http://www.reefsanctuary.com

Take it easy,
Teri

[Charles Henderson]

In article >,
Teri G > wrote:

> Charlie,
>
> It doesn't sound as if you are too far away from where you need to be.
> See more below...

Thanks for your comments, Teri. You've helped put things in clearer
perspective...

> Keep a close eye on the A/N/N readings. Two weeks isn't really enough
> time for a tank to properly cycle, and you will likely see at least a
> small cycle. If you start to get Ammonia/Nitrite readings ... do water
> changes.

Yes, I thought that ammonia testing at zero so soon was a bit curious. I
guess I've yet to see the spike. Will test every day for awhile.

> I wouldn't put any algaes in the display tank. They can become very
> invasive and hard to control. If you add more LR, be sure that it is
> fully cured before adding, or again, you'll spark a cycle.

We're aiming for a reef tank, so I'd like to see some coraline algae in
there, if only to give the Coral Beauty something to nibble on. He
hasn't been eating much (if any) of the flake or frozen I've been
feeding.

> I wouldn't mess with the chemistry via additives. The pH is a bit low,
> but not dangerously. The salinity is low, but where you want it depends
> on whether you're looking at a reef tank, or fish-only. Kalkwasser is a
> great mechanism to maintain calcium, alk, & pH.

Will kalkwasser lower alkalinity and raise PH?

> If you're going to do fish-only, I'd gradually (over the course of a
> couple weeks), raise the salinity to 1.023. If you're aiming for a
> *reef* tank, you should be at 1.025 - 1.026. Also, if you'll be keeping
> mobile invertebrates (snails, crabs, etc.), then you'll need to be
> around 1.025. The *key* is raising it slowly.

That high, eh? For some reason I thought I was aiming for 1.021. Thanks
for pointing that out.

Can I just remove some tank water, say a gallon, add a bit of salt and
mix well, then return it to the tank? Via the sump, perhaps? A little
bit per day...?

> After you wait out any potential cycle, and do a couple water changes to
> bring your parameters in check, you might want to think about beefing up
> your cleaner crew considerably - a bunch of different snails, maybe a
> brittle or serpent star, etc.

Should I put in some live sand first?

> Here is a link to my personal site, I have quite a few reference/setup
> articles on here:
>
> http://home.comcast.net/~76fxe/
>
> Also, here is the reef forum/commmunity that I run - you are welcome to
> visit any time - lots of great information and helpful members:
>
> http://www.reefsanctuary.com

Thanks, I'll be there soon!

--Charlie Henderson

[Charles Henderson]

In article >,
"Chris Taylor" > wrote:

> Bring the SG/Salinity up first, this should improve the PH. You'll need to
> do it slowly, ie. 1/1000 point per day over a few days. Not sure what the
> conventional wisdom dictates regarding the final salinity level in your part
> of the world; your LFS should be able to advise on their conditions as a
> guideline. My tank stays at about 1.024.

Thanks, Chris. I didn't realize I was aiming too low, salinity-wise.

> Once the Salinity is good you can focus on a good buffer if needed, I use
> Tropic Marin triple buffer which costs about 11 British Pounds or about U$19
> at present exch. rates. You'll need a test kit to measure the calcium and
> alkalinity/hardness. Again you need to make smallish adjustments here and
> adjust one with consideration to the other.

Does live sand act as a PH buffer, or is that only crushed coral that
does that?

Thanks again,

--Charlie Henderson

[Richard Reynolds]

> > Keep a close eye on the A/N/N readings. Two weeks isn't really enough
> > time for a tank to properly cycle, and you will likely see at least a
> > small cycle. If you start to get Ammonia/Nitrite readings ... do water
> > changes.
>
> Yes, I thought that ammonia testing at zero so soon was a bit curious. I
> guess I've yet to see the spike. Will test every day for awhile.

OTOH

from what you have posted, this tank is well past cycled, no need to even worry about it.

> We're aiming for a reef tank, so I'd like to see some coraline algae in
> there, if only to give the Coral Beauty something to nibble on. He
> hasn't been eating much (if any) of the flake or frozen I've been
> feeding.

try nori, its dead so no worries about it spreading.

> Will kalkwasser lower alkalinity and raise PH?

it will raise both, how far depends on how much you add, IMO start adding it now. assuming
the "kalkwasser generator" works

> Can I just remove some tank water, say a gallon, add a bit of salt and
> mix well, then return it to the tank? Via the sump, perhaps? A little
> bit per day...?

yep thatll work fine. 1 gallon at 1.025 2x will start to make a dent.

> > After you wait out any potential cycle, and do a couple water changes to
> > bring your parameters in check, you might want to think about beefing up
> > your cleaner crew considerably - a bunch of different snails, maybe a
> > brittle or serpent star, etc.

i'd skip starfish unless its part of the "guidelines"

> Should I put in some live sand first?

one or the other, if you add the LS slowly over time, you will not disturb much.




--
Richard Reynolds




>

[Chris Taylor]

> Does live sand act as a PH buffer, or is that only crushed coral that does
that?

Honest answer:- I don't know. I use crushed coral. Many on this NG use Live
Sand and would be better placed to advise.

Comments?


"Charles Henderson" > wrote in message
...
> In article >,
> "Chris Taylor" > wrote:
>
> Does live sand act as a PH buffer, or is that only crushed coral that
> does that?

[Richard Reynolds]

> Does live sand act as a PH buffer, or is that only crushed coral that
> does that?

they both could, however neither really do.

to get good buffering out of either your tank ph has to be LOW, you can search
groups.google.com for past discussions(look for one from boomer.) but i think for real
buffering the ph had to be in the low 7's. if your tank ph is that low, you have other
issues besides CC or sand.


--
Richard Reynolds

[[email protected]]

dear Charlie

I would add some life sand instantly! This will help to stabilize your
whole Nitrogen Bugdet i.e. Ammonia, Nitrite, Nitrate. You can't do much
wrong with this stuff. Contrary to some other people I truly believe
that the big spike of ammonia is yet to come. Even if the ammonia itself
will not be too dangerous for the fishes, the ammonia will be oxidized
to nitrite, and that IS a killer for any fish. The sooner you get your
nitrogen cycle well established the better it is for your fishes. Don't
worry too much about salinity right now, it is a bit low but many
importers/dealers run their systems on 1.018 or even 1.015.
There is one thing that you did not mention, Phosphate. How much do you
have?

Best wishes from Germany

Jens



> Temp. 79
> Salinity 1.019
> PH 7.9
> Ammonia 0
>
> Haven't tested for Nitrite/Nitrate yet.
>
> The animals:
>
> 4 Green Chromis
> 2 Clarkii Clowns
> 2 Yellowtail Blue Damsels
> 1 Coral Beauty (medium)
> 1 Yellow Tang (small)
> 2 Cleaner Shrimp
> 6 Blue Leg Hermits
>
> The tank is devoid of algae at this point, and there is no substrate.
> Just the old rock that's nothing more than base rock now, with just the
> bacteria living in it. I plan to add more live rock to re-seed the tank
> with algaes and other micro-critters, plus about a half-inch of
> aragonite toward the front of the tank for those that like to forage on
> the bottom.
>
> So, what are your suggestions for getting the water chemistry right?
> Bring the PH up first? How best to do that? Add the aragonite *first*,
> as a buffer? There's a kalkwasser generator in the cabinet that's yet to
> be brought online...
>
> I'll be doing more-frequent-than-usual water changes for a time, maybe
> 10 percent a week for the next few weeks, and I'll gradually raise the
> salinity to 1.021 that way.
>
> But first, I await your wisdom.
>
> My humble thanks,
>
> --Charlie Henderson

[Marc Levenson]

Just top off your tank's evaporation with pre-mixed sal****er. It will
gradually raise your salinity quite easily. Keep testing the water to make sure
you don't over do it.

Marc


Charles Henderson wrote:

> Can I just remove some tank water, say a gallon, add a bit of salt and
> mix well, then return it to the tank? Via the sump, perhaps? A little
> bit per day...?
>

--
Personal Page: http://www.sparklingfloorservice.com/oanda/index.html
Business Page: http://www.sparklingfloorservice.com
Marine Hobbyist: http://www.melevsreef.com

[Charles Henderson]

In article
>,
Charles Henderson > wrote:

Thank, everyone, for your suggestions. I have a better idea now of what
I need to do. I'll get some Live Sand in there right away, then see what
the PH does after that.

I'll start bringing up the salinity with once-a-week 10 percent water
changes.

I'll get some Nori for the Coral Beauty.

And since we are building a reef tank here, I'll get some fully-cured
Live Rock, a little at a time. But I'll wait on that till after I know
for sure whether this tank is past the ammonia/nitrite spike.

Thanks again, boys and girls! I'll be back with more questions, no doubt!

Cheers,

--Charlie Henderson


> So, what are your suggestions for getting the water chemistry right?
> Bring the PH up first? How best to do that? Add the aragonite *first*,
> as a buffer? There's a kalkwasser generator in the cabinet that's yet to
> be brought online...
>
> I'll be doing more-frequent-than-usual water changes for a time, maybe
> 10 percent a week for the next few weeks, and I'll gradually raise the
> salinity to 1.021 that way.
>
> But first, I await your wisdom.
>
> My humble thanks,
>
> --Charlie Henderson

[Teri G]

Charlie,

I think everyone else pretty much answered your questions - just to
reiterate a couple things... (below):


> We're aiming for a reef tank, so I'd like to see some coraline algae in
> there, if only to give the Coral Beauty something to nibble on. He
> hasn't been eating much (if any) of the flake or frozen I've been
> feeding.

Okay, coraline algae is a different ballgame. When ppl say *add algae*
- I think of macro algaes, usually Caulerpas. These you wouldn't want
in your display. Coraline is a solid encrusting algae (what gives LR
it's "purple" color), and no fish that I am aware of, will eat it.

Try some live or frozen brine or frozen mysis for the C. Beauty - see if
it will eat that.

> Will kalkwasser lower alkalinity and raise PH?

Kalkwasser is a naturally balanced additive, and will raise both calcium
and alk. It also has an extremely high pH, and will raise that as well.

> That high, eh? For some reason I thought I was aiming for 1.021. Thanks
> for pointing that out.

A good article:

http://www.animalnetwork.com/fish2/aqfm/1997/nov/features/1/default.asp

In summary, 1.025 is the closest to the natural salinity of the reef
where most of our critters come from.

> Can I just remove some tank water, say a gallon, add a bit of salt and
> mix well, then return it to the tank? Via the sump, perhaps? A little
> bit per day...?

You could ... what most ppl do to raise salinity is simply use sal****er
as topoff water (for evap), instead of fresh water. Another method is
to simply use a higher strength salinity water for you water changes.
>
>
>>After you wait out any potential cycle, and do a couple water changes to
>>bring your parameters in check, you might want to think about beefing up
>>your cleaner crew considerably - a bunch of different snails, maybe a
>>brittle or serpent star, etc.
>
>
> Should I put in some live sand first?

If you're going to be adding LS to the tank, I would do this before you
do anything else.
>
>

HTH!!
Teri
http://www.reefsanctuary.com

[Richard Reynolds]

> You could ... what most ppl do to raise salinity is simply use sal****er
> as topoff water (for evap), instead of fresh water. Another method is
> to simply use a higher strength salinity water for you water changes.

just a warning

DO NOT do this thru your kalk reactor. you will need to do it manually



--
Richard Reynolds

[Charles Henderson]

In article >,
Teri G > wrote:

(snip)

> Okay, coraline algae is a different ballgame. When ppl say *add algae*
> - I think of macro algaes, usually Caulerpas. These you wouldn't want
> in your display. Coraline is a solid encrusting algae (what gives LR
> it's "purple" color), and no fish that I am aware of, will eat it.

Well, you're just full of useful information! Thank you for once again
correcting my misconceptions! ;-)

Coral Angels do eat algae off rocks, though, right? That's what they're
pecking at?

I was hoping to get *whatever* it is they like to eat by adding some
live rock, but it seems I should wait till the water chemistry is
corrected before doing that. MY LFS guy has given me some sage advice,
too: concentrate on PH, alkalinity, calcium and salinity first of all.

He, along with some others here said I should get some live sand in
there right away, so I did that yesterday! Aragonite, anyway. I'll get
some sand from one of nature's reefs to seed that with soon, but it's
effect on water chemistry should be there now.

The Coral Beauty was very unhappy with the disturbance. I kept the silty
cloud down to a minimum by pouring the sand down through a length of PVC
pipe, but of course the tank clouded up for an hour or so anyway. He was
swimming frantically till lights out, hours after it had cleared. I'm
really starting to worry about him... Everyone else in the tank seems
okay; no obvious signs of stress.

> > Try some live or frozen brine or frozen mysis for the C. Beauty - see if
> it will eat that.

He won't take flake, frozen brine or mysis, and I've tried two different
formulations of frozen mixtures, supposedly good for Pygmy Angels,
etc... He won't take any of them. He seems interested in food, comes out
quickly when the food kits the water and the Damsels go nuts, even
tastes some of what's there, but quickly spits it out and then just
swims around kind of agitated.

> > Will kalkwasser lower alkalinity and raise PH?
>
> Kalkwasser is a naturally balanced additive, and will raise both calcium
> and alk. It also has an extremely high pH, and will raise that as well.

I plan to bring all water parameters into compliance before using the
kalk reactor.

> > That high, eh? For some reason I thought I was aiming for 1.021. Thanks
> > for pointing that out.
>
> A good article:
>
> http://www.animalnetwork.com/fish2/aqfm/1997/nov/features/1/default.asp

> In summary, 1.025 is the closest to the natural salinity of the reef
> where most of our critters come from.

Thanks again, Teri. You've been very helpful!

--Charlie Henderson

[Ct Midnite]

On Tue, 16 Dec 2003 14:47:20 -0500, Teri G >
wrote:

>
>Okay, coraline algae is a different ballgame. When ppl say *add algae*
>- I think of macro algaes, usually Caulerpas. These you wouldn't want
>in your display. Coraline is a solid encrusting algae (what gives LR
>it's "purple" color), and no fish that I am aware of, will eat it.

Are you saying you don't want any Caulerpas in your display tank?

Is that the norm for a reef tank? I'm new at this but I kind of like
some Caulerpas in the tank. You have to stay on top of it or it get
to be to much but I like the color it adds and it hasn't been that big
of a deal yet anyway.

Do most reef tanks have no Caulerpas?
Ct Midnite

http://www.geocities.com/ctmidnite53/fish.html

[Charles Spitzer]

"Ct Midnite" <mreef2.10.muffin@spamgourmet.(nospam)com> wrote in message
...
> On Tue, 16 Dec 2003 14:47:20 -0500, Teri G >
> wrote:
>
> >
> >Okay, coraline algae is a different ballgame. When ppl say *add algae*
> >- I think of macro algaes, usually Caulerpas. These you wouldn't want
> >in your display. Coraline is a solid encrusting algae (what gives LR
> >it's "purple" color), and no fish that I am aware of, will eat it.
>
> Are you saying you don't want any Caulerpas in your display tank?
>
> Is that the norm for a reef tank? I'm new at this but I kind of like
> some Caulerpas in the tank. You have to stay on top of it or it get
> to be to much but I like the color it adds and it hasn't been that big
> of a deal yet anyway.
>
> Do most reef tanks have no Caulerpas?
> Ct Midnite
>
> http://www.geocities.com/ctmidnite53/fish.html

it's really hard, if not impossible, to get rid of it once it's established.
if you miss trimming it for a while, it can go asexual and die all at once,
dumping a large amount of biological waste into your tank in a short period
of time.

[CapFusion]

> it's really hard, if not impossible, to get rid of it once it's
established.
> if you miss trimming it for a while, it can go asexual and die all at
once,
> dumping a large amount of biological waste into your tank in a short
period
> of time.

I do not mind having some Caulerpas.... or any type.

CapFusion,...

[Teri G]

Charlie,

Charles Henderson wrote:

> Well, you're just full of useful information! Thank you for once again
> correcting my misconceptions! ;-)

Not a problem, and I hope you don't see it as trying to "correct" you.
Just trying to help, and share what bit of experience I've gleaned over
the many years of doing this.
>
> Coral Angels do eat algae off rocks, though, right? That's what they're
> pecking at?

I haven't kept a dwarf angel for many yeara (beware that most dwarfs
will *nip* at corals) - but I do believe that CB's are primarily algae
eaters in the wild. This doesn't necesarily mean that they will eat
macro algaes like Caulerpa and other display algaes. They may tend to
graze more off of the hair algaes. Dried nori (available in most
oriental markets as well as large grocery stores) is usually a good
choice for algae eaters.
Have you tried live brine? Never met a healthy fish who wouldn't go
crazy for it. Or, see if you can get your hands on some Cyclop-eeze.

On other note - CB's imported from the Phillipines don't always have a
great survival record. Capture & transport practices are not always up
to *snuff*.
>
> I was hoping to get *whatever* it is they like to eat by adding some
> live rock, but it seems I should wait till the water chemistry is
> corrected before doing that. MY LFS guy has given me some sage advice,
> too: concentrate on PH, alkalinity, calcium and salinity first of all.

This is good advice, but truthfully, you're going to need to get the
fish eating *something* soon. It likely will not survive off of
organisms on the LR.
As far as your water chemistry, it isn't bad, and you honestly don't
need to be overly concerned about ca/alk until you anticipate keeping
corals.

> He, along with some others here said I should get some live sand in
> there right away, so I did that yesterday! Aragonite, anyway. I'll get
> some sand from one of nature's reefs to seed that with soon, but it's
> effect on water chemistry should be there now.

Well ... I haven't followed this complete conversation to a T, but are
you referring to the possible *buffering* capabilities of aragonite?
If so, this has been pretty much disproven. In order for aragonite to
"buffer' the water, it would need to semi-dissolve. In order to do
this, your pH would have to be so low that pretty much nothing in the
tank would survive. This is how a calcium reactor works - CO2 gas is
injected into the water, which drops the pH to 7.0 or below. This low
pH water partially dissolves the aragonite media, thus making a high
ca/alk (but low pH) effluent.

If you are instead referring to the denitrifying capabilities of a DSB,
it will take several weeks (possibly months), for your sandbed to become
truly *live*, and for it to truly become a denitrification factor.
>
> The Coral Beauty was very unhappy with the disturbance. I kept the silty
> cloud down to a minimum by pouring the sand down through a length of PVC
> pipe, but of course the tank clouded up for an hour or so anyway. He was
> swimming frantically till lights out, hours after it had cleared. I'm
> really starting to worry about him... Everyone else in the tank seems
> okay; no obvious signs of stress.

I'd try to avoid changes/disturbances as much as possible for a bit of
time. It sounds to me that the fish might be quite stressed - capture,
shipping, introduction into a new tank, etc., may all have taken it's
toll - and this may be why it is not eating.
(snip)
>
> I plan to bring all water parameters into compliance before using the
> kalk reactor.

Is it a kalkwasser (Nilsen) reactor, or a Calcium reactor? Neither is
truly effective at *raising* levels, but both are wonderful for
maintaining them. We use both - if you need any help, just yell.

(snip)
>
>
> Thanks again, Teri. You've been very helpful!
>
> --Charlie Henderson

Any time.

Teri
http://www.reefsanctuary.com

[Teri G]

Ct Midnite wrote:

> On Tue, 16 Dec 2003 14:47:20 -0500, Teri G >
> wrote:
>
>
(snip)

> Are you saying you don't want any Caulerpas in your display tank?

There are some macros that I would consider for a reef - Halimeda is
very nice looking, but will deplete calcium levels. "Shaving brush"
algae is nice looking, Chaetomorpha is okay, not invasive or rooting.
Caulerpa, absolutely not (more below).
>
> Is that the norm for a reef tank? I'm new at this but I kind of like
> some Caulerpas in the tank. You have to stay on top of it or it get
> to be to much but I like the color it adds and it hasn't been that big
> of a deal yet anyway.

I know several people (including myself) who have had horrible
experiences with Caulerpa in the display. Given available nutrients,
and sufficient lighting, many caulerpas can literally take over a tank
in a couple weeks - even less time. It is almost impossible to
eradicate once established, and, in many cases, grows much more quickly
than it can be controlled. Caulerpas also have a tendency to release
toxins, as well as all of the nutrients they have absorbed (nitrates,
phosphates, etc.), back into the water column.

We recenly had a war with some Caulerpa prolifera that was somehow (no
clue how) introduced into our tank. It took hold on a piece of LR, and
rooted itself deep into one my favorite sps's - an Anacropora sp.
Within only a few days, it had literally grown totally through the
coral. I had to remove the entire rock from the tank, and tear apart
the coral into several dozen pieces to remove the Caulerpa. Nasty
stuff. We have three different Tangs in the tank - none of which would
touch the stuff.
>
> Do most reef tanks have no Caulerpas?

Most that I know of do not have Caulerpa, but may have one or two other
macros, as mentioned above. The problem with macro algaes is this --
either no fish will touch it, and it will quickly take over a tank,
*or*, the fish will love it, and will have a quick and tasty $20.00
snack. :-)

Teri
http://www.reefsanctuary.com

[Marc Levenson]

The better option is to have your macro algae in a refugium, out of the display
tank.

Marc


Teri G wrote:

> > Are you saying you don't want any Caulerpas in your display tank?
>
> There are some macros that I would consider for a reef - Halimeda is
> very nice looking, but will deplete calcium levels. "Shaving brush"
> algae is nice looking, Chaetomorpha is okay, not invasive or rooting.
> Caulerpa, absolutely not (more below).
>
>
> I know several people (including myself) who have had horrible
> experiences with Caulerpa in the display. Given available nutrients,
> and sufficient lighting, many caulerpas can literally take over a tank
> in a couple weeks - even less time. It is almost impossible to
> eradicate once established, and, in many cases, grows much more quickly
> than it can be controlled. Caulerpas also have a tendency to release
> toxins, as well as all of the nutrients they have absorbed (nitrates,
> phosphates, etc.), back into the water column.
>
> We recenly had a war with some Caulerpa prolifera that was somehow (no
> clue how) introduced into our tank. It took hold on a piece of LR, and
> rooted itself deep into one my favorite sps's - an Anacropora sp.
> Within only a few days, it had literally grown totally through the
> coral. I had to remove the entire rock from the tank, and tear apart
> the coral into several dozen pieces to remove the Caulerpa. Nasty
> stuff. We have three different Tangs in the tank - none of which would
> touch the stuff.
>
>
> Most that I know of do not have Caulerpa, but may have one or two other
> macros, as mentioned above. The problem with macro algaes is this --
> either no fish will touch it, and it will quickly take over a tank,
> *or*, the fish will love it, and will have a quick and tasty $20.00
> snack. :-)
>
> Teri
> http://www.reefsanctuary.com

--
Personal Page: http://www.sparklingfloorservice.com/oanda/index.html
Business Page: http://www.sparklingfloorservice.com
Marine Hobbyist: http://www.melevsreef.com

[Charles Henderson]

In article >,
Teri G > wrote:

> Charles Henderson wrote:
>
> > Well, you're just full of useful information! Thank you for once again
> > correcting my misconceptions! ;-)
>
> Not a problem, and I hope you don't see it as trying to "correct" you.
> Just trying to help, and share what bit of experience I've gleaned over
> the many years of doing this.

No worries about the "correcting" part! I'm beginning to look forward to
your replies. ;-)


> > Coral Angels do eat algae off rocks, though, right? That's what they're
> > pecking at?
>
> I haven't kept a dwarf angel for many yeara (beware that most dwarfs
> will *nip* at corals) - but I do believe that CB's are primarily algae
> eaters in the wild. This doesn't necesarily mean that they will eat
> macro algaes like Caulerpa and other display algaes. They may tend to
> graze more off of the hair algaes. Dried nori (available in most
> oriental markets as well as large grocery stores) is usually a good
> choice for algae eaters.
> Have you tried live brine? Never met a healthy fish who wouldn't go
> crazy for it. Or, see if you can get your hands on some Cyclop-eeze.

Okay. I haven't tried live brine, and I've never heard of Cyclop-eeze...
I'll check 'em out.

I can't remember the name off hand, but I have tried soaking frozen
brine in a lipid protein/fatty acid concoction; the LFS guy highly
recommended it. Everyone *but* the Coral Beauty loved it!

Good news is, I did see him take some flake food last night - just a
couple morsels. Certainly not enough to live on, but it's encouraging to
see him take *something*... maybe he won't let himself starve to death.

(snip)

> > He, along with some others here said I should get some live sand in
> > there right away, so I did that yesterday! Aragonite, anyway. I'll get
> > some sand from one of nature's reefs to seed that with soon, but it's
> > effect on water chemistry should be there now.
>
> Well ... I haven't followed this complete conversation to a T, but are
> you referring to the possible *buffering* capabilities of aragonite?
> If so, this has been pretty much disproven. In order for aragonite to
> "buffer' the water, it would need to semi-dissolve. In order to do
> this, your pH would have to be so low that pretty much nothing in the
> tank would survive. This is how a calcium reactor works - CO2 gas is
> injected into the water, which drops the pH to 7.0 or below. This low
> pH water partially dissolves the aragonite media, thus making a high
> ca/alk (but low pH) effluent.

Okay, I follow that, and it makes sense. I guess that consensus was to
get the substrate in there before tinkering with chemistry.

> If you are instead referring to the denitrifying capabilities of a DSB,
> it will take several weeks (possibly months), for your sandbed to become
> truly *live*, and for it to truly become a denitrification factor.

No, I wanted an aragonite substrate not so much for denitrifying
(although I do like the idea of extra bio media in the tank), but simply
as a place where bottom-dwelling critters can live and clean up
detritus. And, the owner's wife has insisted on Blennies. ;-)

So much for a bare-bottom tank.

> > The Coral Beauty was very unhappy with the disturbance. I kept the silty
> > cloud down to a minimum by pouring the sand down through a length of PVC
> > pipe, but of course the tank clouded up for an hour or so anyway. He was
> > swimming frantically till lights out, hours after it had cleared. I'm
> > really starting to worry about him... Everyone else in the tank seems
> > okay; no obvious signs of stress.
>
> I'd try to avoid changes/disturbances as much as possible for a bit of
> time. It sounds to me that the fish might be quite stressed - capture,
> shipping, introduction into a new tank, etc., may all have taken it's
> toll - and this may be why it is not eating.
> (snip)

Yes, I was cringing and wracked with worry the entire time I was messing
with that sand. Inheriting the tank, *with* an artificial deadline for
having fish it has complicated things, and has me doing things out of
order. But it's not *too* bad, and things will settle down to routine
now the basics are in place...

> > I plan to bring all water parameters into compliance before using the
> > kalk reactor.
>
> Is it a kalkwasser (Nilsen) reactor, or a Calcium reactor? Neither is
> truly effective at *raising* levels, but both are wonderful for
> maintaining them. We use both - if you need any help, just yell.

I'm not on-site at the moment so i can't say what model/type it is yet.
I haven't really examined it yet...

I got a call from the Mrs. yesterday afternoon - she said the tank was
leaking, come quick!

I got there and found the skimmer overflowing. Loast about 6-7 gallons.
Seems the power had gone out in the neighborhood that morning, so
everything in the tank shut down. When it all came back online, the
level in the skimmer went way up and overflowed...

I guess I'll have to do some "all power off" testing to see what's up
with that!

And ideas on fail-safe skimmer levels? ;-)

Thanks,

--Charlie Henderson

[Charles Spitzer]

"Charles Henderson" > wrote in message
...
> I got there and found the skimmer overflowing. Loast about 6-7 gallons.
> Seems the power had gone out in the neighborhood that morning, so
> everything in the tank shut down. When it all came back online, the
> level in the skimmer went way up and overflowed...
>
> I guess I'll have to do some "all power off" testing to see what's up
> with that!
>
> And ideas on fail-safe skimmer levels? ;-)
>
> Thanks,
>
> --Charlie Henderson

put the skimmer in the sump if you can.