Is gravel necessary for plants??

[ko57]

Here's what I did:

I was concerned about my betta's fins, thinking he had fin-rot. His
fins were tearing a bit, and when the dorsal fin started with a small
pin hole, then a few days later that elongated (about 1/4 inch) and
then one morning it tore off leaving a long strip at the rear. Geez,
I'm thinking, is he wreckless or what? Demolition Derby? I thought
perhaps the ammonia was getting high, not good for fins. And it did
even though I'd do partial water changes, would go up a bit.
(Cycling?) Still eating, swimming...the ammonia was at .25, nitrates
10, nitrites .75, ph went down to 6.8, from 7.2, water hard-150-300,
180 kh. This was before Christmas (23rd).

Before dorsal tear:
http://albums.photo.epson.com/j/ViewPhoto?u=4101034&a=31996266&p=73396243
After:
http://albums.photo.epson.com/j/ViewPhoto?u=4101034&a=31996266&p=73478035

I understand about the rising and dropping of ammonia, nitrites,
nitrates, from cycling, but the fins had me going, didn't want him to
burn from any abnormal levels of ?? so:

The evening of Christmas, I put him in a bowl, with a tad of Fungus
clear, water kept warm by the heater. Took everything out of the tank,
cleaned it and everything else with plain table salt and warm/hot
water. Ornaments-driftwood & coral (plaster), brown oval rocks,
heater, airstone tube, cleaned the gravel real well & rinsed, and did
not put the ornaments, rocks, & gravel back in. The pet manager at Wal
suggested doing this with the plain salt, he keeps fish, birds (35+yr
old parrot), dogs, so I bit. I asked about the bio-wheel, he mentioned
to keep it in water while using fungus clear.

I added a bit of fungus clear to the new water, took the carbon out the
filter, took the bio-wheel out (kept it in a cup of water), put the
airstone back in-ran when I put the FC in, installed the heater &
thermometer. This was a few weeks ago, I did a water change 4 days
later, added more FE, but I think I added too much, so I did a 1/3
water change (5 gal hex), put a new filter with carbon, put the
biowheel back in, added a little aquarium salt. I add about a half
teaspoon at a time over a few days, I don't do tsp/gallon, more like a
teaspoon or 2 for the tank.

Meanwhile, his dorsal fin is growing back, the other fins that tore a
bit are growing back and look okay. It looks like he had a
haircut-flat top or a Marine haircut. If he enlisted it's news to me.
I read where if they're having to re-grow fins they can eat a little
more for protein (not too much but a little extra), so I give him 2 or
3 SMALL meals a day-a few flakes, 3 or 4 Hakuri betta pellets, and
maybe or maybe not Tetra betta pellets (these are hard...), maybe a
dried bloodworm or 2 a few times a week. Now & then a little pea,
green bean, gave him a very small bit of chicken the other night-he
attacked that.

I don't know if I'm going to put gravel back in, but it seems I'd need
it or something for the plants. I don't want to mess up the cycling,
it seems to be doing better with that as time goes and since the
cleaning. When I bought the tank I cleaned with regular water,not
salt. Thinking later get the rounder pea-shaped or flourite (?)
gravel/substrate if I could find it. The thing is, I got and placed in
the tank a little Java Moss, and the supplier sent as a bonus 2 banana
plants, still no gravel.

My water tests:
1/4/06: nitrates: .20, nitrites: 3, 150 hard, 180 alk., 7.4 ph; 0
ammonia.
1/6/06: nitrates: .25, nitrites: 3, 300 hard, 180-300 alk., 7.4 ph,
0 ammonia.

I'll do another water change tonight, and clean the floor a bit.

Elaine, I saw your website...how do you gravel vac with so many plants
in your tanks? They look nice. Any thoughts on all this-gravel &
plants too, are appreciated.

A late Happy New Year to all...

Kerry

[Daniel Morrow]

Bottom posted.
ko57 wrote:
> Here's what I did:
>
> I was concerned about my betta's fins, thinking he had fin-rot. His
> fins were tearing a bit, and when the dorsal fin started with a small
> pin hole, then a few days later that elongated (about 1/4 inch) and
> then one morning it tore off leaving a long strip at the rear. Geez,
> I'm thinking, is he wreckless or what? Demolition Derby? I thought
> perhaps the ammonia was getting high, not good for fins. And it did
> even though I'd do partial water changes, would go up a bit.
> (Cycling?) Still eating, swimming...the ammonia was at .25, nitrates
> 10, nitrites .75, ph went down to 6.8, from 7.2, water hard-150-300,
> 180 kh. This was before Christmas (23rd).
>
> Before dorsal tear:
> http://albums.photo.epson.com/j/ViewPhoto?u=4101034&a=31996266&p=73396243
> After:
> http://albums.photo.epson.com/j/ViewPhoto?u=4101034&a=31996266&p=73478035
>
> I understand about the rising and dropping of ammonia, nitrites,
> nitrates, from cycling, but the fins had me going, didn't want him to
> burn from any abnormal levels of ?? so:
>
> The evening of Christmas, I put him in a bowl, with a tad of Fungus
> clear, water kept warm by the heater. Took everything out of the
> tank, cleaned it and everything else with plain table salt and
> warm/hot water. Ornaments-driftwood & coral (plaster), brown oval
> rocks, heater, airstone tube, cleaned the gravel real well & rinsed,
> and did not put the ornaments, rocks, & gravel back in. The pet
> manager at Wal suggested doing this with the plain salt, he keeps
> fish, birds (35+yr old parrot), dogs, so I bit. I asked about the
> bio-wheel, he mentioned to keep it in water while using fungus clear.
>
> I added a bit of fungus clear to the new water, took the carbon out
> the filter, took the bio-wheel out (kept it in a cup of water), put
> the airstone back in-ran when I put the FC in, installed the heater &
> thermometer. This was a few weeks ago, I did a water change 4 days
> later, added more FE, but I think I added too much, so I did a 1/3
> water change (5 gal hex), put a new filter with carbon, put the
> biowheel back in, added a little aquarium salt. I add about a half
> teaspoon at a time over a few days, I don't do tsp/gallon, more like a
> teaspoon or 2 for the tank.
>
> Meanwhile, his dorsal fin is growing back, the other fins that tore a
> bit are growing back and look okay. It looks like he had a
> haircut-flat top or a Marine haircut. If he enlisted it's news to me.
> I read where if they're having to re-grow fins they can eat a little
> more for protein (not too much but a little extra), so I give him 2 or
> 3 SMALL meals a day-a few flakes, 3 or 4 Hakuri betta pellets, and
> maybe or maybe not Tetra betta pellets (these are hard...), maybe a
> dried bloodworm or 2 a few times a week. Now & then a little pea,
> green bean, gave him a very small bit of chicken the other night-he
> attacked that.
>
> I don't know if I'm going to put gravel back in, but it seems I'd need
> it or something for the plants. I don't want to mess up the cycling,
> it seems to be doing better with that as time goes and since the
> cleaning. When I bought the tank I cleaned with regular water,not
> salt. Thinking later get the rounder pea-shaped or flourite (?)
> gravel/substrate if I could find it. The thing is, I got and placed
> in the tank a little Java Moss, and the supplier sent as a bonus 2
> banana plants, still no gravel.
>
> My water tests:
> 1/4/06: nitrates: .20, nitrites: 3, 150 hard, 180 alk., 7.4 ph; 0
> ammonia.
> 1/6/06: nitrates: .25, nitrites: 3, 300 hard, 180-300 alk., 7.4 ph,
> 0 ammonia.
>
> I'll do another water change tonight, and clean the floor a bit.
>
> Elaine, I saw your website...how do you gravel vac with so many plants
> in your tanks? They look nice. Any thoughts on all this-gravel &
> plants too, are appreciated.
>
> A late Happy New Year to all...
>
> Kerry

I do know that some pants do NOT need gravel at the very least. I suspect
java moss doesn't need gravel but I am not sure about the banana plants.
Anyone else? Good luck and later!

[Flash Wilson]

On Fri, 6 Jan 2006 16:09:30 -0800, Daniel Morrow > wrote:
>I do know that some pants do NOT need gravel at the very least. I suspect
>java moss doesn't need gravel but I am not sure about the banana plants.
>Anyone else? Good luck and later!

Java moss, and indeed java fern, can be anchored to bogwood instead
(although my java moss makes a carpet over everything and there is
even some growing in the condensation in the hood somehow, and my
java fern did spread its roots down into the gravel beyond my
bogwood). All other plants I've had have needed gravel for
anchoring, and they keep the gravel clean around them too... I
never gravel vac if there is a carpet of plants or an underlying
network of roots - it just comes back clean. Some plants will
manage if they are free floating and not anchored, if they are
voracious, like hygrophilia polysperma, but I like to anchor them
in gravel if only to contain them!

Gravel is useful for providing a surface for bacteria too,
and also for trapping dirt... with or without plants!

--
Flash Wilson - Web Design & Mastery - 0870 401 4061 / 07939 579090
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Work: www.wdam.co.uk Personal: www.gorge.org

[Elaine T]

ko57 wrote:

<snip>

> I don't know if I'm going to put gravel back in, but it seems I'd need
> it or something for the plants. I don't want to mess up the cycling,
> it seems to be doing better with that as time goes and since the
> cleaning. When I bought the tank I cleaned with regular water,not
> salt. Thinking later get the rounder pea-shaped or flourite (?)
> gravel/substrate if I could find it. The thing is, I got and placed in
> the tank a little Java Moss, and the supplier sent as a bonus 2 banana
> plants, still no gravel.
>
> My water tests:
> 1/4/06: nitrates: .20, nitrites: 3, 150 hard, 180 alk., 7.4 ph; 0
> ammonia.
> 1/6/06: nitrates: .25, nitrites: 3, 300 hard, 180-300 alk., 7.4 ph,
> 0 ammonia.
>
> I'll do another water change tonight, and clean the floor a bit.
>
> Elaine, I saw your website...how do you gravel vac with so many plants
> in your tanks? They look nice. Any thoughts on all this-gravel &
> plants too, are appreciated.

Thanks! I love aquatic plants as much as fish, so my tanks always turn
into green jungles. I use a slender gravel vac and suck out debris from
among the plant stems but I don't push the gravel-vac tube down into the
gravel. As you noticed, there's no room and I'd cut up the plants'
roots. The plants keep the gravel oxygenated and use up fish waste that
settles there. I also always keep Malaysian trumpet snails in my tanks
to keep the gravel stirred up and free of stray bits of fish food. I do
move rocks, bogwood, or any loose decorations and vacuum under those.

As for plants and gravel, it really depends on the plant. The simplest
answer is plants that grow roots need something to root in, while
floating plants and mosses don't. Gravel, sand, fractured clay or
specialty plant substrates like Flourite all work. Banana lilies do
grow roots from below the "bananas." They don't seem to grow very well
if they're not anchored in some gravel. I've also had the best luck
with them in fairly bright light.

If you want to keep the tank bare bottomed, use plants that can float
like java moss, anacharis (aka Egeria or Elodea), hornwort, riccia, or
water sprite. Those funny algae balls don't need gravel either. As
Flash pointed out, mosses and ferns can be tied to wood or rocks. So
can the wonderfully sturdy Anubias. You can also put rooted plants like
banana lilies in small pots of gravel to leave the rest of the bottom
bare for cleaning.

I hope your betta keeps feeling better.

--
Elaine T __
http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><
rec.aquaria.* FAQ http://faq.thekrib.com

[ko57]

Thanks you for the help and information! And thanks Elaine, I hope he
continues doing well I did read that for the banana lillies, if the
bananas got covered the plant grows taller and the leaves would get
larger. I'll figure out something on the gravel, either use what I had
or find the pea or flourite.

If the garden center at Walmart would have pea gravel can that be used,
washed real well, or should that be bought from lfs? And bogwood-from
a lfs or do you use what you find? If so do you boil it or scald it?
Thanks again,

Kerry

[Jürgen Exner]

ko57 wrote:
> If the garden center at Walmart would have pea gravel can that be
> used, washed real well, or should that be bought from lfs?

Walmart? Way to expensive. Go to your local aggregate dealer and get some
pea gravel (~20-25$ US per cubic yard!). If you ask nicely you can probably
get two buckets of gravel for free. Of course you have to rinse thourougly,
much more than gravel from the LFS. On the plus side it looks much more
natural than the pink and blue epoxy-coated gravel from the LFS, but maybe
that's just me.

> And
> bogwood-from a lfs or do you use what you find?

That I would get from the LFS. Normal wood will rott and contaminate the
water.

jue

[NetMax]

"Jürgen Exner" > wrote in message
news:uDQvf.2644$ya4.240@trnddc03...
> ko57 wrote:
>> If the garden center at Walmart would have pea gravel can that be
>> used, washed real well, or should that be bought from lfs?
>
> Walmart? Way to expensive. Go to your local aggregate dealer and get
> some pea gravel (~20-25$ US per cubic yard!). If you ask nicely you can
> probably get two buckets of gravel for free. Of course you have to
> rinse thourougly, much more than gravel from the LFS. On the plus side
> it looks much more natural than the pink and blue epoxy-coated gravel
> from the LFS, but maybe that's just me.
>
>> And
>> bogwood-from a lfs or do you use what you find?
>
> That I would get from the LFS. Normal wood will rott and contaminate
> the water.
>
> jue

What? You don't like pink and blue epoxy-coated gravel ? ;~). When I was
selling aquariums, many parents would bring their kids in, and let them
pick the gravel colour (imagine a big Oceanic filled with rainbow
gravel). When the kids were distracted picking something else out
(sunken ship decorations), I would quietly pull the parents aside and
mention that they should pick a gravel colour which is easy on the eyes,
relaxing and they won't get tired of looking at. If you get tired of the
treasure chest blowing bubbles, it's easy to remove, but removing the
gravel is a lot harder. Needless to say, we didn't sell too much
rainbow gravel ;~).

To the OP, regarding gravel:
http://www.2cah.com/netmax/basics/substrate/substrate.shtml

...and the LFS is the most expensive place to buy driftwood. For a
particular piece in a smaller aquarium (or if money means nothing to
you), then fine, otherwise there are other options:
http://www.2cah.com/netmax/basics/driftwood/driftwood.shtml

--
www.NetMax.tk

[Bill Stock]

"NetMax" > wrote in message
...
> "Jürgen Exner" > wrote in message
> news:uDQvf.2644$ya4.240@trnddc03...
>> ko57 wrote:
>>> If the garden center at Walmart would have pea gravel can that be
>>> used, washed real well, or should that be bought from lfs?
>>
>> Walmart? Way to expensive. Go to your local aggregate dealer and get some
>> pea gravel (~20-25$ US per cubic yard!). If you ask nicely you can
>> probably get two buckets of gravel for free. Of course you have to rinse
>> thourougly, much more than gravel from the LFS. On the plus side it looks
>> much more natural than the pink and blue epoxy-coated gravel from the
>> LFS, but maybe that's just me.
>>
>>> And
>>> bogwood-from a lfs or do you use what you find?
>>
>> That I would get from the LFS. Normal wood will rott and contaminate the
>> water.
>>
>> jue
>
> What? You don't like pink and blue epoxy-coated gravel ? ;~). When I was
> selling aquariums, many parents would bring their kids in, and let them
> pick the gravel colour (imagine a big Oceanic filled with rainbow gravel).
> When the kids were distracted picking something else out (sunken ship
> decorations), I would quietly pull the parents aside and mention that they
> should pick a gravel colour which is easy on the eyes, relaxing and they
> won't get tired of looking at. If you get tired of the treasure chest
> blowing bubbles, it's easy to remove, but removing the gravel is a lot
> harder. Needless to say, we didn't sell too much rainbow gravel ;~).

Guilty: My original tank had the black gravel, with the odd fluorescent
bits. They're pretty much all Fluorite now, except for the GF, which have
stones. Now if I could just sneak the Pagoda out of there. :)


> To the OP, regarding gravel:
> http://www.2cah.com/netmax/basics/substrate/substrate.shtml
>
> ..and the LFS is the most expensive place to buy driftwood. For a
> particular piece in a smaller aquarium (or if money means nothing to you),
> then fine, otherwise there are other options:
> http://www.2cah.com/netmax/basics/driftwood/driftwood.shtml

I bought some driftwood online because it was "cheaper". The problem is you
can't pick the shape you'd like. One day I was poking around the LFS and saw
a great piece of two tone driftwood (twice the size of the cheap one) for
only $14. Of course now it's covered in algae (GF tank) and all the plants
have long since been chewed off. :(


> --
> www.NetMax.tk
>

[Larry Blanchard]

ko57 wrote:

> If the garden center at Walmart would have pea gravel can that be
> used, washed real well, or should that be bought from lfs?**And
> bogwood-from a lfs or do you use what you find?**If*so*do*you*boil*it
> or*scald*it?

As I've mentioned, what I used is "tube sand" or "traction sand" sold in
the US in the winter. A 60 pound sack cost me about $5. It may be too
late to find it, but if you're in the US look at places like Home
Depot.

I first winnowed mine by repeatedly pouring from one bucket to another
from a height on a windy day. That got rid of all the dust. Then I
ran it through a coarse sieve to get rid of more small particles - that
may have been overkill.

What I wound up with could be called coarse sand or fine gravel. About
40-50 pounds. Definitely smaller than the pet shop stuff, which I've
heard was really too coarse for ideal plant substrate.

Anyway if it's available, give it a try. You can't lose much.

--
It's turtles, all the way down

[Koi-lo]

"ko57" > wrote in message
ups.com...
> Thanks you for the help and information! And thanks Elaine, I hope he
> If the garden center at Walmart would have pea gravel can that be used,
> washed real well, or should that be bought from lfs? And bogwood-from
> a lfs or do you use what you find? If so do you boil it or scald it?
> Thanks again,
=======================
Small brown pea gravel can be had at a fraction of the price Wally*World and
the pet shops charge at Lowe's or Home Depot. A 50lb bag runs around $3.
They also have other nice gravel and stones to mix with in with it for a
more natural look. I like to mix in some egg-rock and river-rock for the
natural look.
--

Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
Aquariums since 1952
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
NEW PAGE: Aquariums:
http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastadaisy/Aquarium-Page4.html
http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastadaisy
~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>

[Marco Schwarz]

Hi..

> Normal wood will rott and
> contaminate the water.

Sunk (dead) wood and roots from trees along creeks or rivers
that grow into water or will free-rinsed by water like
alder or willow won't rott. Dead hardwood or hardwood roots
like oak or booking wood won't rott, too.

In water wood will rott extremely slow if it has no contact
to atmospheric air.

Basic conditions in aquaria are stable tanks, filter flow
and bark or mold fungi should be removed in advance.
--
cu
Marco

[Daniel Morrow]

Bottom posted.
ko57 wrote:
> Thanks you for the help and information! And thanks Elaine, I hope he
> continues doing well I did read that for the banana lillies, if the
> bananas got covered the plant grows taller and the leaves would get
> larger. I'll figure out something on the gravel, either use what I
> had or find the pea or flourite.
>
> If the garden center at Walmart would have pea gravel can that be
> used, washed real well, or should that be bought from lfs? And
> bogwood-from a lfs or do you use what you find? If so do you boil it
> or scald it? Thanks again,
>
> Kerry

You could try sal****er driftwood (from the ocean) - I have a piece of that
in my fancy guppy/turtle tank and I never cleaned it and it is doing great.
According to some others here sal****er driftwood doesn't have to be cleaned
before being put in a freshwater tank. You can put freshwater driftwood in a
sal****er tank much the same way too. Definitely avoid putting like with
like though (freshwater driftwood in a freshwater tank) because of diseases,
etc.. Good luck and later!

[ko57]

Thanks again for all the help and information. The tip about the
driftwood, not putting similar source in same type tank-good to know
because I sure didn't before.

Kerry

Once again, another pic showing his dorsal fin growing more & more
(those rays?) more prominent:
http://albums.photo.epson.com/j/ViewPhoto?u=4101034&a=31996266&p=73542036&Scale=640x480