New 50 Gallon, so confused about filtration!

[[email protected]]

I tried to post this yesterday but some how messed it up. I recently
received a 50 gallon tank for X-mas. I having been keeping sal****er
tanks for about 8 years now, but they are all smaller Eclipse systems
(3-12 gallons). However, I am now out of my league with this new tank.

I have read so much information from so many different sources I am now
completely lost! I hope some of you more experineced aquarium keepers
may be able to help me.

What is the best choice for effective yet inexpensive filtration in my
new tank?
Sump, piggyback, berlin system, I am open to all suggestions.

The LFS' in my area have made several suggestions but all are expensive
and complicated.

As of now my plan for the tank is thus:
20-30 lbs live rock
2 inches of crushed argonite or 1.5 of sugar sand


5-8 seahorses, 2-3 clownfish, several small gobies, fire scallops, lots
of small inverts

or

Snowflake eel, several tangs, clownfish, gobies, anemones, clams, lots
of small inverts

I appreciate any suggestions or wisdom you may have to offer.

[Wayne Sallee]

Go with all sugar sand. It's better.

Your lighing will depend on wether you are planning on
growing corals.

Live rock and live sand are the best filters. So a
sump/refugium would be best. Does that tank have a built
in overflow?

Protine skimmers are also highly recomended.

Wayne Sallee
Wayne's Pets



wrote on 1/8/2006 6:04 PM:
> I tried to post this yesterday but some how messed it up. I recently
> received a 50 gallon tank for X-mas. I having been keeping sal****er
> tanks for about 8 years now, but they are all smaller Eclipse systems
> (3-12 gallons). However, I am now out of my league with this new tank.
>
> I have read so much information from so many different sources I am now
> completely lost! I hope some of you more experineced aquarium keepers
> may be able to help me.
>
> What is the best choice for effective yet inexpensive filtration in my
> new tank?
> Sump, piggyback, berlin system, I am open to all suggestions.
>
> The LFS' in my area have made several suggestions but all are expensive
> and complicated.
>
> As of now my plan for the tank is thus:
> 20-30 lbs live rock
> 2 inches of crushed argonite or 1.5 of sugar sand
>
>
> 5-8 seahorses, 2-3 clownfish, several small gobies, fire scallops, lots
> of small inverts
>
> or
>
> Snowflake eel, several tangs, clownfish, gobies, anemones, clams, lots
> of small inverts
>
> I appreciate any suggestions or wisdom you may have to offer.
>

[[email protected]]

Thanks Wayne.

Would 1.5 inches of Sugar Sand be acceptable for the main aquairum
bottom?

I had originally planned on creating a sump, but the more I read, the
cloudier that idea seemed. Your recommendation is assuring. My tank
does not have a built in overflow!

Do you have any recommnedations for plans or comprehensive guides to
building a sump without a built in overflow?
As I understand it a sump would require:
Additional tank (have spare 10 gallon)
Additional lighting (I have spare ballast)
Live sand - How many inches?
Live rock - How many lbs?
Invertebrates - What species do you recommend?
Plants (Chelurpa, etc..)
Protein Skimmer - Any suggestions for affordable solutions?

Thanks again for the input

[[email protected]]

Thanks Wayne.

Would 1.5 inches of Sugar Sand be acceptable for the main aquairum
bottom?

I had originally planned on creating a sump, but the more I read, the
cloudier that idea seemed. Your recommendation is assuring. My tank
does not have a built in overflow!

Do you have any recommnedations for plans or comprehensive guides to
building a sump without a built in overflow?
As I understand it a sump would require:
Additional tank (have spare 10 gallon)
Additional lighting (I have spare ballast)
Live sand - How many inches?
Live rock - How many lbs?
Invertebrates - What species do you recommend?
Plants (Chelurpa, etc..)
Protein Skimmer - Any suggestions for affordable solutions?

Thanks again for the input

[Wayne Sallee]

I'd go a little deaper on the sand if you can. You can
also taper it towards the back, so that it is shallower in
the front, and deaper in the back if you want to.

If all you are going to do is go with 10 gallons for a
sump, then don't bother. That small of a sump is not worth
troubling yourself over. Go with at least a 20 gallon
tank. You can put a hang on overflow on your 50 gallon
tank. At that size tank, it's sort of a so/so as to
whether or not to have a sump, since you dont' have a
predrilled overflow. If you go with a biger tank later on,
then definately get one with a built in overflow. Sumps
are the way to go with big tanks. I just wish people would
think of that when they are purchasing tanks. Hanon
overflows can be a bit anoying.

Wayne Sallee
Wayne's Pets



wrote on 1/9/2006 11:40 PM:
> Thanks Wayne.
>
> Would 1.5 inches of Sugar Sand be acceptable for the main aquairum
> bottom?
>
> I had originally planned on creating a sump, but the more I read, the
> cloudier that idea seemed. Your recommendation is assuring. My tank
> does not have a built in overflow!
>
> Do you have any recommnedations for plans or comprehensive guides to
> building a sump without a built in overflow?
> As I understand it a sump would require:
> Additional tank (have spare 10 gallon)
> Additional lighting (I have spare ballast)
> Live sand - How many inches?
> Live rock - How many lbs?
> Invertebrates - What species do you recommend?
> Plants (Chelurpa, etc..)
> Protein Skimmer - Any suggestions for affordable solutions?
>
> Thanks again for the input
>

[Samwyse]

Wayne Sallee wrote:

> You can put a hang on overflow on your
> 50 gallon tank. At that size tank, it's sort of a so/so as to whether or
> not to have a sump, since you dont' have a predrilled overflow. If you
> go with a biger tank later on, then definately get one with a built in
> overflow. Sumps are the way to go with big tanks. I just wish people
> would think of that when they are purchasing tanks. Hanon overflows can
> be a bit anoying.

How hard is it to drill an overflow? My syphon is again developing a
large air bubble which I'll have to suck out before things start to back
up again.

[Wayne Sallee]

It can be done with a dimond drill bit. And should be done
with the tank empty. :-) Also make sure that the glass is
not tempered. And practice several times on another piece
of glass.

Wayne Sallee
Wayne's Pets



Samwyse wrote on 1/10/2006 9:18 PM:
> Wayne Sallee wrote:
>
>> You can put a hang on overflow on your 50 gallon tank. At that size
>> tank, it's sort of a so/so as to whether or not to have a sump, since
>> you dont' have a predrilled overflow. If you go with a biger tank
>> later on, then definately get one with a built in overflow. Sumps are
>> the way to go with big tanks. I just wish people would think of that
>> when they are purchasing tanks. Hanon overflows can be a bit anoying.
>
>
> How hard is it to drill an overflow? My syphon is again developing a
> large air bubble which I'll have to suck out before things start to back
> up again.

[RicSeyler]

wrote:

>I tried to post this yesterday but some how messed it up. I recently
>received a 50 gallon tank for X-mas. I having been keeping sal****er
>tanks for about 8 years now, but they are all smaller Eclipse systems
>(3-12 gallons). However, I am now out of my league with this new tank.
>
>I have read so much information from so many different sources I am now
>completely lost! I hope some of you more experineced aquarium keepers
>may be able to help me.
>
>What is the best choice for effective yet inexpensive filtration in my
>new tank?
>Sump, piggyback, berlin system, I am open to all suggestions.
>
Protein Skimmer/Live Rock/Live Sand. And since your tank isn't drilled
you can use an
overflow or take your tank to your Local Fish Store (LFS) and pay them
to drill it.
An overflow will work fine, but drilling is a little more disaster proof.
You said you have a spare tank, so go with a sump and a in-sump skimmer.
DON'T SKIMP on your skimmer!! OR lights!! A large number of new reefers
end up re-purchasing lights and skimmer after they get interested,
confident and
see all those real nice corals that come into your LFS from time to time.
Or get their first 6 month struggle with an algae outbreak from a weak
skimmer.
And I'm not exaggerating when I say 6 month battle either....

>
>The LFS' in my area have made several suggestions but all are expensive
>and complicated.
>
>As of now my plan for the tank is thus:
>20-30 lbs live rock
>2 inches of crushed argonite or 1.5 of sugar sand
>
1.5 in of sand will be good to start with, and you can always add more
sand later
to achieve the optimal 3in-4in or so. It's nice to stop by your LFS from
time to time
and buy a baggie of live sand out of their tanks. Especially when their
live rock tanks
are restocked and there are bugs/critters/worms everywhere in the LR
tank sand.

>
>
>5-8 seahorses, 2-3 clownfish, several small gobies, fire scallops, lots
>of small inverts
>
>or
>
>Snowflake eel, several tangs, clownfish, gobies, anemones, clams, lots
>of small inverts
>
>I appreciate any suggestions or wisdom you may have to offer.
>
>
>

--
Ric Seyler
Online Racing: RicSeyler
GPL Handicap 6.35

http://www.pcola.gulf.net/~ricseyler
remove –SPAM- from email address
--------------------------------------
"Homer no function beer well without."
- H.J. Simpson

[RicSeyler]

A simple sump system isn't complicated....
You have a pump in the sump that pumps sump water up into
the main tank, and when the main tank becomes too full, it runs
into the overflow and back down into the sump. That's it.

The only concern it not to have the sump too full. You
want to be able to unplug everything and the water in the hoses
and the overflow box to be able to drain back into the sump without
it overflowing. Bingo you are done.

wrote:

>Thanks Wayne.
>
>Would 1.5 inches of Sugar Sand be acceptable for the main aquairum
>bottom?
>
>I had originally planned on creating a sump, but the more I read, the
>cloudier that idea seemed. Your recommendation is assuring. My tank
>does not have a built in overflow!
>
>Do you have any recommnedations for plans or comprehensive guides to
>building a sump without a built in overflow?
>As I understand it a sump would require:
>Additional tank (have spare 10 gallon)
>Additional lighting (I have spare ballast)
>Live sand - How many inches?
>Live rock - How many lbs?
>Invertebrates - What species do you recommend?
>Plants (Chelurpa, etc..)
>Protein Skimmer - Any suggestions for affordable solutions?
>
>Thanks again for the input
>
>
>

--
Ric Seyler
Online Racing: RicSeyler
GPL Handicap 6.35

http://www.pcola.gulf.net/~ricseyler
remove –SPAM- from email address
--------------------------------------
"Homer no function beer well without."
- H.J. Simpson

[[email protected]]

Thanks for all the advice. Do you have a recommendation for a specific
skimmer? I have read alot of different reviews and it seems everyone
has thier favorite.

[Bubba]

Scott,

If you drill the tank for an overflow (much recommended over a hang-on
overflow in terms of long-term hassle), I would recommend that you
also drill the other end of the tank for the water return into the
tank (gets rid of all the plumbing hanging behind the tank). I would
also STRONGLY recommend that you plumb the return into the tank so
that it's near the surface eg. when you turn off the power the sump
doesn't overflow. Don't rely on one-way ball valves, as they have a
tendance to foul, and fail at the worst possible times.

On 11 Jan 2006 19:18:06 -0800, "
> wrote:

>Thanks for all the advice. Do you have a recommendation for a specific
>skimmer? I have read alot of different reviews and it seems everyone
>has thier favorite.

[Samwyse]

Bubba wrote:
> Scott,
>
> If you drill the tank for an overflow (much recommended over a hang-on
> overflow in terms of long-term hassle), I would recommend that you
> also drill the other end of the tank for the water return into the
> tank (gets rid of all the plumbing hanging behind the tank). I would
> also STRONGLY recommend that you plumb the return into the tank so
> that it's near the surface eg. when you turn off the power the sump
> doesn't overflow. Don't rely on one-way ball valves, as they have a
> tendance to foul, and fail at the worst possible times.

I wouldn't be afraid of deep returns, just make sure that there's a
small hole or two high on the pipe to break the syphon if the flow
reverses. On my tank, there are a couple of 1/8" holes just above the
normal water level. Most of the time there's a small trickle of water
running from them, but in a power outage they allow air into the system
the instant that the pump stops. That small trickle means that in just
a couple of seconds I can visually verify that the holes aren't plugged
by any foreign matter; that check is part of my daily tank inspection.

[[email protected]]

My tank is tempered glass. That means no drilling right?

[Wayne Sallee]

Yes.
Often the bottom will be tempered, but not the sides.
Sometimes though, the manufactures will also temper the 4
sides.

Wayne Sallee
Wayne's Pets



wrote on 1/18/2006 5:52 PM:
> My tank is tempered glass. That means no drilling right?
>

[Wayne Sallee]

Don't drill tempered glass.
However it has been done, but the standard answer is no it
can't be drilled.
Don't drill tempered glass.

Wayne Sallee
Wayne's Pets



Wayne Sallee wrote on 1/18/2006 7:14 PM:
> Yes.
> Often the bottom will be tempered, but not the sides. Sometimes though,
> the manufactures will also temper the 4 sides.
>
> Wayne Sallee
> Wayne's Pets
>
>
>
> wrote on 1/18/2006 5:52 PM:
>
>> My tank is tempered glass. That means no drilling right?
>>

[Samwyse]

Wayne Sallee wrote:
> Don't drill tempered glass.
> However it has been done, but the standard answer is no it can't be
> drilled.
> Don't drill tempered glass.

So, how does one identify tempered glass? I assume that my second-hand
50-gallon Walmart special went the cheap route, but how do I make sure?

[George Patterson]

Samwyse wrote:

> So, how does one identify tempered glass?

If you try to drill it and it shatters into a bunch of slivers, it wasn't
tempered. If it breaks up into chunks, it was. :-)

George Patterson
Coffee is only a way of stealing time that should by rights belong to
your slightly older self.

[Mark Henry]

Samwyse wrote:
>
> So, how does one identify tempered glass? I assume that my second-hand
> 50-gallon Walmart special went the cheap route, but how do I make sure?

Actually, chances are that your tank IS tempered. If you need holes
drilled call around to your LFS and see if any can/will do it. Another
option is to call around to glass companies and ask them - make sure you
tell them what you want done (IE a 1" diameter hole in the bottom of a
tank with tempered glass) and be very specific. Most will tell you that
they'll attempt it - but will not take responsibility for damage (or
destruction) to the tank.

Personally, If you just HAVE to have a drilled tank I'd go back and buy
one that way and sell the old one in the paper (or keep it and use it
for a sump for the REALLY big tank that you'll now have to buy because
you have this huge sump sitting around. ;-)

mark h

[Roy]

Odds are Perfecto made thre tank if its sold by walmart........and
odds are only the bottom is tempered........but incase you really do
not know who actualy made the tank, its stilleasy to tell if its
tempered or not. I seriously doubt its tempered on the back or sides
and front.........
YOU need a pair of polarized sunglasses....Put tank in the sunlight,
and look at the panes of glass at an angle..If its not tempered it
will appear clear, if the piece is tempered you will see smallish
circular type patterns on the glass, which are not visible withut the
polarized glasses......

I ownder if someone cares to explain how to drill tempered glass since
someone seems to say its been done........PPG and Norment glass here
both major big time players say its not possible, and has to be
drilled and shaped PRIOR to tempering.......not after...

On Thu, 19 Jan 2006 03:26:45 GMT, Samwyse > wrote:
>><>Wayne Sallee wrote:
>><>> Don't drill tempered glass.
>><>> However it has been done, but the standard answer is no it can't be
>><>> drilled.
>><>> Don't drill tempered glass.
>><>
>><>So, how does one identify tempered glass? I assume that my second-hand
>><>50-gallon Walmart special went the cheap route, but how do I make sure?

--
\\\|///
( @ @ )
-----------oOOo(_)oOOo---------------


oooO
---------( )----Oooo----------------
\ ( ( )
\_) ) /
(_/
The original frugal ponder! Koi-ahoi mates....

[Wayne Sallee]

Roy wrote on 1/19/2006 8:50 AM:
> Odds are Perfecto made thre tank if its sold by walmart........and
> odds are only the bottom is tempered........but incase you really do
> not know who actualy made the tank, its stilleasy to tell if its
> tempered or not. I seriously doubt its tempered on the back or sides
> and front.........
> YOU need a pair of polarized sunglasses....Put tank in the sunlight,
> and look at the panes of glass at an angle..If its not tempered it
> will appear clear, if the piece is tempered you will see smallish
> circular type patterns on the glass, which are not visible withut the
> polarized glasses......
>



I tryed that on an aquarium that I knew was tempered, but
it didn't work.



> I ownder if someone cares to explain how to drill tempered glass since
> someone seems to say its been done........PPG and Norment glass here
> both major big time players say its not possible, and has to be
> drilled and shaped PRIOR to tempering.......not after...



There was a thread on this newsgroup something like a year
ago. A guy was able to drill using a coper pipe, and some
grit. I've heard of it being done with a sand blaster.
I've also drilled tempered, and gotten half way. My
experience with drilling tempered glass,is that it is so
much harder to drill, and takes for ever, like trying to
drill with a dull drill bit.

Wayne Sallee
Wayne's Pets






>
> On Thu, 19 Jan 2006 03:26:45 GMT, Samwyse > wrote:
>
>>><>Wayne Sallee wrote:
>>><>> Don't drill tempered glass.
>>><>> However it has been done, but the standard answer is no it can't be
>>><>> drilled.
>>><>> Don't drill tempered glass.
>>><>
>>><>So, how does one identify tempered glass? I assume that my second-hand
>>><>50-gallon Walmart special went the cheap route, but how do I make sure?
>
>

[Wayne Sallee]

Yep, if you got it from wallmart, it's probably tempered
on the bottom, and the sides.

Wayne Sallee
Wayne's Pets



Samwyse wrote on 1/18/2006 10:26 PM:
> Wayne Sallee wrote:
>
>> Don't drill tempered glass.
>> However it has been done, but the standard answer is no it can't be
>> drilled.
>> Don't drill tempered glass.
>
>
> So, how does one identify tempered glass? I assume that my second-hand
> 50-gallon Walmart special went the cheap route, but how do I make sure?

[Roy]

Tempered glass is just like case hardened steel is.Its not hard all
the way through.its just hardened or tempered for a certain thickness
on each of the surface sides. Once the hardened or lets call it skin
on one side is drilled, there is tremendous stress placed on the
glass, which leads to an almost instantaneous busting of the glass
itself....Drilling with a copper pipe or brass pipe is a typical
method of drilling holes in glas, long before the introduction of
diamond embeded hole saws and bits.......A compound continaing
tungsten carbide grit was used which used to embed itself in the edge
or end of the bras or copper tube since it was soft, much like you
make a lapping hon to polich or cut hard lined cylinders or do hand
lapping on parts for a better closer fit / finish. The grit that wsa
embedded in the tubes end, coupled with pressure from the drill is
what cut the glass.its not a specific method to make holes in tempered
glass.

Drilling holes in glass with a bead / sand blaster is not rocket
sicience either, it merely erodes away the glass until it makes a
hole. Either glass beads or aluminum oxide or carbide grit is used, or
even sand.......its how they etch a lot of glass patterns on glass
today yet along with chemicals. The fellow down the road from me has
worked with PPG and is now a big wig with Norment glass who is among
the leaders of the glass companies who make bullet proof/resistent
glass and high strength glass.....He knows his stuff. Unless the glass
is drilled from both sides at the same time with eqwual speeds and
feeds the odds of you making a hole and not getting the glass broken
in the process is pretty well nil........and then there is the relief
made if you do happen to drill it, made by the hole itself which also
upsets the tension on the surface areas of the glass....so its bound
to bust. Glass is cheap, and holes are drilled prior to
tempering.......if the pieces break during manufacture its not a big
$$$ loss........and no you can not anneal or spot anneal glass that is
tempered just to drill it........

You can buy hydro flouric acid if you want to make holes with a
chemical............works great, easy to use and extremely fast. You
can make a mask out of rubber tape, add a little clay or putty dam and
fill it up and let it dissolved right through the glass just like a
CNC miling machine or router would cut it out....unfortunately
hydroflouric acid is extremely hazzardous, and if you get it on you
your probably gonna be ruined for life. ONly one antedote to stop it
from eating flesh and thats a shot with some kind of globulin stuff
which is not all that readily available..without it, the stuff is
impervious to water, and other agents to dilute it.....so you just
have to wait until its expended and in the interim your flesh is
literally melted away...........

Any good pair of polarized glasses and looking at the tank in full
sunlight will reveal the hard to see circles....Easy to miss if your
just off a little on the angle your viewing it, but its a valid way to
determine if its tempered or not......

On Thu, 19 Jan 2006 17:19:29 GMT, Wayne Sallee >
wrote:
>><>
>><>
>><>Roy wrote on 1/19/2006 8:50 AM:
>><>> Odds are Perfecto made thre tank if its sold by walmart........and
>><>> odds are only the bottom is tempered........but incase you really do
>><>> not know who actualy made the tank, its stilleasy to tell if its
>><>> tempered or not. I seriously doubt its tempered on the back or sides
>><>> and front.........
>><>> YOU need a pair of polarized sunglasses....Put tank in the sunlight,
>><>> and look at the panes of glass at an angle..If its not tempered it
>><>> will appear clear, if the piece is tempered you will see smallish
>><>> circular type patterns on the glass, which are not visible withut the
>><>> polarized glasses......
>><>>
>><>
>><>
>><>
>><>I tryed that on an aquarium that I knew was tempered, but
>><>it didn't work.
>><>
>><>
>><>
>><>> I ownder if someone cares to explain how to drill tempered glass since
>><>> someone seems to say its been done........PPG and Norment glass here
>><>> both major big time players say its not possible, and has to be
>><>> drilled and shaped PRIOR to tempering.......not after...
>><>
>><>
>><>
>><>There was a thread on this newsgroup something like a year
>><>ago. A guy was able to drill using a coper pipe, and some
>><>grit. I've heard of it being done with a sand blaster.
>><>I've also drilled tempered, and gotten half way. My
>><>experience with drilling tempered glass,is that it is so
>><>much harder to drill, and takes for ever, like trying to
>><>drill with a dull drill bit.
>><>
>><>Wayne Sallee
>><>Wayne's Pets

>><>
>><>
>><>
>><>
>><>
>><>>
>><>> On Thu, 19 Jan 2006 03:26:45 GMT, Samwyse > wrote:
>><>>
>><>>>><>Wayne Sallee wrote:
>><>>>><>> Don't drill tempered glass.
>><>>>><>> However it has been done, but the standard answer is no it can't be
>><>>>><>> drilled.
>><>>>><>> Don't drill tempered glass.
>><>>>><>
>><>>>><>So, how does one identify tempered glass? I assume that my second-hand
>><>>>><>50-gallon Walmart special went the cheap route, but how do I make sure?
>><>>
>><>>

--
\\\|///
( @ @ )
-----------oOOo(_)oOOo---------------


oooO
---------( )----Oooo----------------
\ ( ( )
\_) ) /
(_/
The original frugal ponder! Koi-ahoi mates....

[Wayne Sallee]

Roy wrote on 1/19/2006 3:14 PM:
>
> You can buy hydro flouric acid if you want to make holes with a
> chemical............works great, easy to use and extremely fast. You
> can make a mask out of rubber tape, add a little clay or putty dam and
> fill it up and let it dissolved right through the glass just like a
> CNC miling machine or router would cut it out....unfortunately
> hydroflouric acid is extremely hazzardous, and if you get it on you
> your probably gonna be ruined for life. ONly one antedote to stop it
> from eating flesh and thats a shot with some kind of globulin stuff
> which is not all that readily available..without it, the stuff is
> impervious to water, and other agents to dilute it.....so you just
> have to wait until its expended and in the interim your flesh is
> literally melted away...........
>

Hydroflouric acid eches the glass fairly quickly, but I
would imagine it would take a long time for it to cut all
the way through the glass on an aquarium.

Hydroflouric acid is dilutable with water.


Wayne Sallee
Wayne's Pets

[Roy]

I would not bet on it being dilutable in water, or at least to the
point its abloe to be washed off the skin and you get nothing more
than a chemical burn as it does nothing to stop the action of it
eating muscle and nerve tissue without the injection directly into the
affected area no matter how much water you pour on it. ........and you
may be surprised just how fast a constant flow of fresh acid will eat
a hole in the glass. I used to use the stuff all the time, as a side
line business of cleaning out beer coil cleaning equipment. It was a
good money maker when I lived up north. The business flush their beer
distribution lines, cooling coils etc on the taps etc with glass beads
after so many kegs are run through so it cleans out any accumulated
scum. There is a method and a certain air pressure needed, and
sometimes due to a restriction or kink or such in a line glass beads
would just clog up and pack tight. No amount of air pressure or heat
will remove it, only way is with hydroflouric acid. Any other way was
futile. I used to clean the glass bead restrictions form distribution
lines ots of times, so I have used quite a bit of this stuff in the
past......Have had two injections of the antidote as well, and it was
at the point I used top have a perscription to buy it to keep it on
hand for when I needed it........It was not expensive but not normally
available due to HFA not being so readily used as other chemicials
were.. I have cut or should say disolved many neat intricate patterns
on glassware for the wife and etched neat patterns on plate glass etc.

The special coating is a gel of calcium gluconate and also zephiran
chloride is used as an neutralizer antidote. The chloride solution was
the hardest thing to find when you needed help.

H2F2 is nasty stuff to say the least

On Thu, 19 Jan 2006 20:50:14 GMT, Wayne Sallee >
wrote:
>><>Roy wrote on 1/19/2006 3:14 PM:
>><>>
>><>> You can buy hydro flouric acid if you want to make holes with a
>><>> chemical............works great, easy to use and extremely fast. You
>><>> can make a mask out of rubber tape, add a little clay or putty dam and
>><>> fill it up and let it dissolved right through the glass just like a
>><>> CNC miling machine or router would cut it out....unfortunately
>><>> hydroflouric acid is extremely hazzardous, and if you get it on you
>><>> your probably gonna be ruined for life. ONly one antedote to stop it
>><>> from eating flesh and thats a shot with some kind of globulin stuff
>><>> which is not all that readily available..without it, the stuff is
>><>> impervious to water, and other agents to dilute it.....so you just
>><>> have to wait until its expended and in the interim your flesh is
>><>> literally melted away...........
>><>>
>><>
>><>Hydroflouric acid eches the glass fairly quickly, but I
>><>would imagine it would take a long time for it to cut all
>><>the way through the glass on an aquarium.
>><>
>><>Hydroflouric acid is dilutable with water.
>><>
>><>
>><>Wayne Sallee
>><>Wayne's Pets


--
\\\|///
( @ @ )
-----------oOOo(_)oOOo---------------


oooO
---------( )----Oooo----------------
\ ( ( )
\_) ) /
(_/
The original frugal ponder! Koi-ahoi mates....

[Wayne Sallee]

I have hydroflouric acid at home. I have a 13% diluted
bottle here at the store that I made up, and put in a drip
bottle. It's great for cleaning coroded electrical parts.
Hcl acid will clean up the corosion, but the remaining cl
ions will cause more corrosion afterwards, but the
hydrofouric acid doesnt. I have not experimented with it
for disolving glass, except to see if the 13% would have
any effect on glass. I used to work on a printing press,
and it was used in deletion pens for taking off marks on
the plates.

As far as exposer to the skin with strong hydroflouric
acid, I would just flush with water, and then rub in some
lime paist, and then wash with shampoo. Shapoo works great
for getting the hight ph off of your hands. The amonium
cloride, and amonium sulfate in the shampoo make a great
nutrilizer for that. And it gives off smelly amonia in the
process. When it no longer gives off amonia, you know it's
nuritized the high ph stuff on your hands.

Wayne Sallee
Wayne's Pets



Roy wrote on 1/19/2006 4:32 PM:
>
>
> I would not bet on it being dilutable in water, or at least to the
> point its abloe to be washed off the skin and you get nothing more
> than a chemical burn as it does nothing to stop the action of it
> eating muscle and nerve tissue without the injection directly into the
> affected area no matter how much water you pour on it. ........and you
> may be surprised just how fast a constant flow of fresh acid will eat
> a hole in the glass. I used to use the stuff all the time, as a side
> line business of cleaning out beer coil cleaning equipment. It was a
> good money maker when I lived up north. The business flush their beer
> distribution lines, cooling coils etc on the taps etc with glass beads
> after so many kegs are run through so it cleans out any accumulated
> scum. There is a method and a certain air pressure needed, and
> sometimes due to a restriction or kink or such in a line glass beads
> would just clog up and pack tight. No amount of air pressure or heat
> will remove it, only way is with hydroflouric acid. Any other way was
> futile. I used to clean the glass bead restrictions form distribution
> lines ots of times, so I have used quite a bit of this stuff in the
> past......Have had two injections of the antidote as well, and it was
> at the point I used top have a perscription to buy it to keep it on
> hand for when I needed it........It was not expensive but not normally
> available due to HFA not being so readily used as other chemicials
> were.. I have cut or should say disolved many neat intricate patterns
> on glassware for the wife and etched neat patterns on plate glass etc.
>
> The special coating is a gel of calcium gluconate and also zephiran
> chloride is used as an neutralizer antidote. The chloride solution was
> the hardest thing to find when you needed help.
>
> H2F2 is nasty stuff to say the least
>
> On Thu, 19 Jan 2006 20:50:14 GMT, Wayne Sallee >
> wrote:
>
>>><>Roy wrote on 1/19/2006 3:14 PM:
>>><>>
>>><>> You can buy hydro flouric acid if you want to make holes with a
>>><>> chemical............works great, easy to use and extremely fast. You
>>><>> can make a mask out of rubber tape, add a little clay or putty dam and
>>><>> fill it up and let it dissolved right through the glass just like a
>>><>> CNC miling machine or router would cut it out....unfortunately
>>><>> hydroflouric acid is extremely hazzardous, and if you get it on you
>>><>> your probably gonna be ruined for life. ONly one antedote to stop it
>>><>> from eating flesh and thats a shot with some kind of globulin stuff
>>><>> which is not all that readily available..without it, the stuff is
>>><>> impervious to water, and other agents to dilute it.....so you just
>>><>> have to wait until its expended and in the interim your flesh is
>>><>> literally melted away...........
>>><>>
>>><>
>>><>Hydroflouric acid eches the glass fairly quickly, but I
>>><>would imagine it would take a long time for it to cut all
>>><>the way through the glass on an aquarium.
>>><>
>>><>Hydroflouric acid is dilutable with water.
>>><>
>>><>
>>><>Wayne Sallee
>>><>Wayne's Pets

>
>

[Wayne Sallee]

Wayne Sallee wrote on 1/19/2006 4:56 PM:

> As far as exposer to the skin with strong hydroflouric acid, I would
> just flush with water, and then rub in some lime paist,

Not that I've had to do this, but if I were to get some on
me. And of course the 13% that I made up, is so diluted
that I don't worry about it. I wipe my hand on some tisue,
or my pants, and usualy rens when I get around to it.

The stuff I have at home is of course strong hydroflouric
acid.

Wayne Sallee
Wayne's Pets

[Charles Spitzer]

you should know that the msds for hf is just under storing nuclear products.
doing what you state when/if spilling on yourself would cause death.

http://www.bu.edu/es/labsafety/ESMSDSs/MSHydFluoricAcid.html

in particular, note this paragraph:

Skin Contact:
Corrosive to the skin. Skin contact causes serious skin burns which may not
be immediately apparent or painful. Symptoms may be delayed 8 hours or
longer. The fluoride ion readily penetrates the skin causing destruction of
deep tissue layers and even bone

and this paragraph:

FOR ACID BURNS TO THE BODY: 1) Remove the victim from the contaminated area
and
immediately place him under a safety shower or wash him with a water hose,
whichever is
available. 2) Remove all contaminated clothing. 3) Keep washing with large
amounts of water for a
minimum of 15 to 20 minutes. 4) Have someone make arrangements for medical
attention while
you continue flushing the affected area with water. 5) a) If available,
after thorough washing, the
burned area should be immersed in a solution of 0.2% iced aqueous Hyamine
1622 or 0.13% iced
aqueous Zephiran Chloride. If immersion is not practical, towels should be
soaked with one of the
above solutions and used as compresses for the burn area. Ideally compresses
should be changed
every 2 minutes. 5) b) An alternative treatment to 5a is for the physician
to inject sterile 10%
aqueous calcium gluconate solution subcutaneously beneath, around, and in
the burned area.
Initially use no more than 0.5 cc per square centimeter and do not distort
appearance of skin. If
pain is not completely relieved, additional treatment is indicated. 6) Seek
medical attention as soon
as possible for all burns regardless of how minor they may appear initially.

this isn't something you want to be telling people to use casually.

"Wayne Sallee" > wrote in message
...
>I have hydroflouric acid at home. I have a 13% diluted bottle here at the
>store that I made up, and put in a drip bottle. It's great for cleaning
>coroded electrical parts. Hcl acid will clean up the corosion, but the
>remaining cl ions will cause more corrosion afterwards, but the hydrofouric
>acid doesnt. I have not experimented with it for disolving glass, except to
>see if the 13% would have any effect on glass. I used to work on a printing
>press, and it was used in deletion pens for taking off marks on the plates.
>
> As far as exposer to the skin with strong hydroflouric acid, I would just
> flush with water, and then rub in some lime paist, and then wash with
> shampoo. Shapoo works great for getting the hight ph off of your hands.
> The amonium cloride, and amonium sulfate in the shampoo make a great
> nutrilizer for that. And it gives off smelly amonia in the process. When
> it no longer gives off amonia, you know it's nuritized the high ph stuff
> on your hands.
>
> Wayne Sallee
> Wayne's Pets
>
>
>
> Roy wrote on 1/19/2006 4:32 PM:
>>
>>
>> I would not bet on it being dilutable in water, or at least to the
>> point its abloe to be washed off the skin and you get nothing more
>> than a chemical burn as it does nothing to stop the action of it
>> eating muscle and nerve tissue without the injection directly into the
>> affected area no matter how much water you pour on it. ........and you
>> may be surprised just how fast a constant flow of fresh acid will eat
>> a hole in the glass. I used to use the stuff all the time, as a side
>> line business of cleaning out beer coil cleaning equipment. It was a
>> good money maker when I lived up north. The business flush their beer
>> distribution lines, cooling coils etc on the taps etc with glass beads
>> after so many kegs are run through so it cleans out any accumulated
>> scum. There is a method and a certain air pressure needed, and
>> sometimes due to a restriction or kink or such in a line glass beads
>> would just clog up and pack tight. No amount of air pressure or heat
>> will remove it, only way is with hydroflouric acid. Any other way was
>> futile. I used to clean the glass bead restrictions form distribution
>> lines ots of times, so I have used quite a bit of this stuff in the
>> past......Have had two injections of the antidote as well, and it was
>> at the point I used top have a perscription to buy it to keep it on
>> hand for when I needed it........It was not expensive but not normally
>> available due to HFA not being so readily used as other chemicials
>> were.. I have cut or should say disolved many neat intricate patterns
>> on glassware for the wife and etched neat patterns on plate glass etc.
>>
>> The special coating is a gel of calcium gluconate and also zephiran
>> chloride is used as an neutralizer antidote. The chloride solution was
>> the hardest thing to find when you needed help. H2F2 is nasty stuff to
>> say the least
>>
>> On Thu, 19 Jan 2006 20:50:14 GMT, Wayne Sallee >
>> wrote:
>>
>>>><>Roy wrote on 1/19/2006 3:14 PM:
>>>><>> <>> You can buy hydro flouric acid if you want to make holes with a
>>>><>> chemical............works great, easy to use and extremely fast. You
>>>><>> can make a mask out of rubber tape, add a little clay or putty dam
>>>>and
>>>><>> fill it up and let it dissolved right through the glass just like a
>>>><>> CNC miling machine or router would cut it out....unfortunately
>>>><>> hydroflouric acid is extremely hazzardous, and if you get it on you
>>>><>> your probably gonna be ruined for life. ONly one antedote to stop it
>>>><>> from eating flesh and thats a shot with some kind of globulin stuff
>>>><>> which is not all that readily available..without it, the stuff is
>>>><>> impervious to water, and other agents to dilute it.....so you just
>>>><>> have to wait until its expended and in the interim your flesh is
>>>><>> literally melted away...........
>>>><>> <>
>>>><>Hydroflouric acid eches the glass fairly quickly, but I <>would
>>>>imagine it would take a long time for it to cut all <>the way through
>>>>the glass on an aquarium.
>>>><>
>>>><>Hydroflouric acid is dilutable with water.
>>>><>
>>>><>
>>>><>Wayne Sallee
>>>><>Wayne's Pets

>>

[Kelsey Cummings]

Charles Spitzer wrote:
> this isn't something you want to be telling people to use casually.

Or have just playing have around at all! From what I've heard it's most
accidents with HF acid end up being lethal. Once it gets into the bone
which it apparently does very quickly it is over. Very very scary stuff.

I'd stick with a abrasives or cutting bits.

-K

[Wayne Sallee]

Yea I have a msds sheet at home.
No I'm not telling people to use it casualy. Large
quantities, and/or strong hydroflouric acid is dangerous.

A drip of 13% hydroflouric acid is not an emergency. It
shouldn't be left on the skin. It should be wiped off, and
it's a good idea to give it a rense :-), but no shower is
needed :-)

Wayne Sallee
Wayne's Pets



Charles Spitzer wrote on 1/19/2006 5:35 PM:
> you should know that the msds for hf is just under storing nuclear products.
> doing what you state when/if spilling on yourself would cause death.
>
> http://www.bu.edu/es/labsafety/ESMSDSs/MSHydFluoricAcid.html
>
> in particular, note this paragraph:
>
> Skin Contact:
> Corrosive to the skin. Skin contact causes serious skin burns which may not
> be immediately apparent or painful. Symptoms may be delayed 8 hours or
> longer. The fluoride ion readily penetrates the skin causing destruction of
> deep tissue layers and even bone
>
> and this paragraph:
>
> FOR ACID BURNS TO THE BODY: 1) Remove the victim from the contaminated area
> and
> immediately place him under a safety shower or wash him with a water hose,
> whichever is
> available. 2) Remove all contaminated clothing. 3) Keep washing with large
> amounts of water for a
> minimum of 15 to 20 minutes. 4) Have someone make arrangements for medical
> attention while
> you continue flushing the affected area with water. 5) a) If available,
> after thorough washing, the
> burned area should be immersed in a solution of 0.2% iced aqueous Hyamine
> 1622 or 0.13% iced
> aqueous Zephiran Chloride. If immersion is not practical, towels should be
> soaked with one of the
> above solutions and used as compresses for the burn area. Ideally compresses
> should be changed
> every 2 minutes. 5) b) An alternative treatment to 5a is for the physician
> to inject sterile 10%
> aqueous calcium gluconate solution subcutaneously beneath, around, and in
> the burned area.
> Initially use no more than 0.5 cc per square centimeter and do not distort
> appearance of skin. If
> pain is not completely relieved, additional treatment is indicated. 6) Seek
> medical attention as soon
> as possible for all burns regardless of how minor they may appear initially.
>
> this isn't something you want to be telling people to use casually.
>
> "Wayne Sallee" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>I have hydroflouric acid at home. I have a 13% diluted bottle here at the
>>store that I made up, and put in a drip bottle. It's great for cleaning
>>coroded electrical parts. Hcl acid will clean up the corosion, but the
>>remaining cl ions will cause more corrosion afterwards, but the hydrofouric
>>acid doesnt. I have not experimented with it for disolving glass, except to
>>see if the 13% would have any effect on glass. I used to work on a printing
>>press, and it was used in deletion pens for taking off marks on the plates.
>>
>>As far as exposer to the skin with strong hydroflouric acid, I would just
>>flush with water, and then rub in some lime paist, and then wash with
>>shampoo. Shapoo works great for getting the hight ph off of your hands.
>>The amonium cloride, and amonium sulfate in the shampoo make a great
>>nutrilizer for that. And it gives off smelly amonia in the process. When
>>it no longer gives off amonia, you know it's nuritized the high ph stuff
>>on your hands.
>>
>>Wayne Sallee
>>Wayne's Pets

>>
>>
>>Roy wrote on 1/19/2006 4:32 PM:
>>
>>>
>>>I would not bet on it being dilutable in water, or at least to the
>>>point its abloe to be washed off the skin and you get nothing more
>>>than a chemical burn as it does nothing to stop the action of it
>>>eating muscle and nerve tissue without the injection directly into the
>>>affected area no matter how much water you pour on it. ........and you
>>>may be surprised just how fast a constant flow of fresh acid will eat
>>>a hole in the glass. I used to use the stuff all the time, as a side
>>>line business of cleaning out beer coil cleaning equipment. It was a
>>>good money maker when I lived up north. The business flush their beer
>>>distribution lines, cooling coils etc on the taps etc with glass beads
>>>after so many kegs are run through so it cleans out any accumulated
>>>scum. There is a method and a certain air pressure needed, and
>>>sometimes due to a restriction or kink or such in a line glass beads
>>>would just clog up and pack tight. No amount of air pressure or heat
>>>will remove it, only way is with hydroflouric acid. Any other way was
>>>futile. I used to clean the glass bead restrictions form distribution
>>>lines ots of times, so I have used quite a bit of this stuff in the
>>>past......Have had two injections of the antidote as well, and it was
>>>at the point I used top have a perscription to buy it to keep it on
>>>hand for when I needed it........It was not expensive but not normally
>>>available due to HFA not being so readily used as other chemicials
>>>were.. I have cut or should say disolved many neat intricate patterns
>>>on glassware for the wife and etched neat patterns on plate glass etc.
>>>
>>>The special coating is a gel of calcium gluconate and also zephiran
>>>chloride is used as an neutralizer antidote. The chloride solution was
>>>the hardest thing to find when you needed help. H2F2 is nasty stuff to
>>>say the least
>>>
>>>On Thu, 19 Jan 2006 20:50:14 GMT, Wayne Sallee >
>>>wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>><>Roy wrote on 1/19/2006 3:14 PM:
>>>>><>> <>> You can buy hydro flouric acid if you want to make holes with a
>>>>><>> chemical............works great, easy to use and extremely fast. You
>>>>><>> can make a mask out of rubber tape, add a little clay or putty dam
>>>>>and
>>>>><>> fill it up and let it dissolved right through the glass just like a
>>>>><>> CNC miling machine or router would cut it out....unfortunately
>>>>><>> hydroflouric acid is extremely hazzardous, and if you get it on you
>>>>><>> your probably gonna be ruined for life. ONly one antedote to stop it
>>>>><>> from eating flesh and thats a shot with some kind of globulin stuff
>>>>><>> which is not all that readily available..without it, the stuff is
>>>>><>> impervious to water, and other agents to dilute it.....so you just
>>>>><>> have to wait until its expended and in the interim your flesh is
>>>>><>> literally melted away...........
>>>>><>> <>
>>>>><>Hydroflouric acid eches the glass fairly quickly, but I <>would
>>>>>imagine it would take a long time for it to cut all <>the way through
>>>>>the glass on an aquarium.
>>>>><>
>>>>><>Hydroflouric acid is dilutable with water.
>>>>><>
>>>>><>
>>>>><>Wayne Sallee
>>>>><>Wayne's Pets

>>>
>

[Wayne Sallee]

So does this mean that we should start banning flouride
toothpaste? :-)

Wayne Sallee
Wayne's Pets



Wayne Sallee wrote on 1/19/2006 6:01 PM:
> Yea I have a msds sheet at home.
> No I'm not telling people to use it casualy. Large quantities, and/or
> strong hydroflouric acid is dangerous.
>
> A drip of 13% hydroflouric acid is not an emergency. It shouldn't be
> left on the skin. It should be wiped off, and it's a good idea to give
> it a rense :-), but no shower is needed :-)
>
> Wayne Sallee
> Wayne's Pets
>
>
>
> Charles Spitzer wrote on 1/19/2006 5:35 PM:
>
>> you should know that the msds for hf is just under storing nuclear
>> products. doing what you state when/if spilling on yourself would
>> cause death.
>>
>> http://www.bu.edu/es/labsafety/ESMSDSs/MSHydFluoricAcid.html
>>
>> in particular, note this paragraph:
>>
>> Skin Contact:
>> Corrosive to the skin. Skin contact causes serious skin burns which
>> may not be immediately apparent or painful. Symptoms may be delayed 8
>> hours or longer. The fluoride ion readily penetrates the skin causing
>> destruction of deep tissue layers and even bone
>>
>> and this paragraph:
>>
>> FOR ACID BURNS TO THE BODY: 1) Remove the victim from the
>> contaminated area and
>> immediately place him under a safety shower or wash him with a water
>> hose, whichever is
>> available. 2) Remove all contaminated clothing. 3) Keep washing with
>> large amounts of water for a
>> minimum of 15 to 20 minutes. 4) Have someone make arrangements for
>> medical attention while
>> you continue flushing the affected area with water. 5) a) If
>> available, after thorough washing, the
>> burned area should be immersed in a solution of 0.2% iced aqueous
>> Hyamine 1622 or 0.13% iced
>> aqueous Zephiran Chloride. If immersion is not practical, towels
>> should be soaked with one of the
>> above solutions and used as compresses for the burn area. Ideally
>> compresses should be changed
>> every 2 minutes. 5) b) An alternative treatment to 5a is for the
>> physician to inject sterile 10%
>> aqueous calcium gluconate solution subcutaneously beneath, around, and
>> in the burned area.
>> Initially use no more than 0.5 cc per square centimeter and do not
>> distort appearance of skin. If
>> pain is not completely relieved, additional treatment is indicated. 6)
>> Seek medical attention as soon
>> as possible for all burns regardless of how minor they may appear
>> initially.
>>
>> this isn't something you want to be telling people to use casually.
>>
>> "Wayne Sallee" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>
>>> I have hydroflouric acid at home. I have a 13% diluted bottle here at
>>> the store that I made up, and put in a drip bottle. It's great for
>>> cleaning coroded electrical parts. Hcl acid will clean up the
>>> corosion, but the remaining cl ions will cause more corrosion
>>> afterwards, but the hydrofouric acid doesnt. I have not experimented
>>> with it for disolving glass, except to see if the 13% would have any
>>> effect on glass. I used to work on a printing press, and it was used
>>> in deletion pens for taking off marks on the plates.
>>>
>>> As far as exposer to the skin with strong hydroflouric acid, I would
>>> just flush with water, and then rub in some lime paist, and then wash
>>> with shampoo. Shapoo works great for getting the hight ph off of your
>>> hands. The amonium cloride, and amonium sulfate in the shampoo make a
>>> great nutrilizer for that. And it gives off smelly amonia in the
>>> process. When it no longer gives off amonia, you know it's nuritized
>>> the high ph stuff on your hands.
>>>
>>> Wayne Sallee
>>> Wayne's Pets
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Roy wrote on 1/19/2006 4:32 PM:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> I would not bet on it being dilutable in water, or at least to the
>>>> point its abloe to be washed off the skin and you get nothing more
>>>> than a chemical burn as it does nothing to stop the action of it
>>>> eating muscle and nerve tissue without the injection directly into the
>>>> affected area no matter how much water you pour on it. ........and you
>>>> may be surprised just how fast a constant flow of fresh acid will eat
>>>> a hole in the glass. I used to use the stuff all the time, as a side
>>>> line business of cleaning out beer coil cleaning equipment. It was a
>>>> good money maker when I lived up north. The business flush their beer
>>>> distribution lines, cooling coils etc on the taps etc with glass beads
>>>> after so many kegs are run through so it cleans out any accumulated
>>>> scum. There is a method and a certain air pressure needed, and
>>>> sometimes due to a restriction or kink or such in a line glass beads
>>>> would just clog up and pack tight. No amount of air pressure or heat
>>>> will remove it, only way is with hydroflouric acid. Any other way was
>>>> futile. I used to clean the glass bead restrictions form distribution
>>>> lines ots of times, so I have used quite a bit of this stuff in the
>>>> past......Have had two injections of the antidote as well, and it was
>>>> at the point I used top have a perscription to buy it to keep it on
>>>> hand for when I needed it........It was not expensive but not normally
>>>> available due to HFA not being so readily used as other chemicials
>>>> were.. I have cut or should say disolved many neat intricate patterns
>>>> on glassware for the wife and etched neat patterns on plate glass etc.
>>>>
>>>> The special coating is a gel of calcium gluconate and also zephiran
>>>> chloride is used as an neutralizer antidote. The chloride solution was
>>>> the hardest thing to find when you needed help. H2F2 is nasty stuff
>>>> to say the least
>>>>
>>>> On Thu, 19 Jan 2006 20:50:14 GMT, Wayne Sallee >
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>> <>Roy wrote on 1/19/2006 3:14 PM:
>>>>>> <>> <>> You can buy hydro flouric acid if you want to make holes
>>>>>> with a
>>>>>> <>> chemical............works great, easy to use and extremely
>>>>>> fast. You
>>>>>> <>> can make a mask out of rubber tape, add a little clay or putty
>>>>>> dam and
>>>>>> <>> fill it up and let it dissolved right through the glass just
>>>>>> like a
>>>>>> <>> CNC miling machine or router would cut it out....unfortunately
>>>>>> <>> hydroflouric acid is extremely hazzardous, and if you get it
>>>>>> on you
>>>>>> <>> your probably gonna be ruined for life. ONly one antedote to
>>>>>> stop it
>>>>>> <>> from eating flesh and thats a shot with some kind of globulin
>>>>>> stuff
>>>>>> <>> which is not all that readily available..without it, the stuff is
>>>>>> <>> impervious to water, and other agents to dilute it.....so you
>>>>>> just
>>>>>> <>> have to wait until its expended and in the interim your flesh is
>>>>>> <>> literally melted away...........
>>>>>> <>> <>
>>>>>> <>Hydroflouric acid eches the glass fairly quickly, but I <>would
>>>>>> imagine it would take a long time for it to cut all <>the way
>>>>>> through the glass on an aquarium.
>>>>>> <>
>>>>>> <>Hydroflouric acid is dilutable with water.
>>>>>> <>
>>>>>> <>
>>>>>> <>Wayne Sallee
>>>>>> <>Wayne's Pets
>>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>

[Charles Spitzer]

there's a whole lot less fluorine in fluoride toothpaste (and fluoride in
the water) than a 13% solution. the fact that it's extremely hard to buy hf
in almost any quantity or concentration by the general public should tell
you something.

"Wayne Sallee" > wrote in message
...
> So does this mean that we should start banning flouride toothpaste? :-)
>
> Wayne Sallee
> Wayne's Pets
>
>
>
> Wayne Sallee wrote on 1/19/2006 6:01 PM:
>> Yea I have a msds sheet at home.
>> No I'm not telling people to use it casualy. Large quantities, and/or
>> strong hydroflouric acid is dangerous.
>>
>> A drip of 13% hydroflouric acid is not an emergency. It shouldn't be left
>> on the skin. It should be wiped off, and it's a good idea to give it a
>> rense :-), but no shower is needed :-)
>>
>> Wayne Sallee
>> Wayne's Pets
>>
>>
>>
>> Charles Spitzer wrote on 1/19/2006 5:35 PM:
>>
>>> you should know that the msds for hf is just under storing nuclear
>>> products. doing what you state when/if spilling on yourself would cause
>>> death.
>>>
>>> http://www.bu.edu/es/labsafety/ESMSDSs/MSHydFluoricAcid.html
>>>
>>> in particular, note this paragraph:
>>>
>>> Skin Contact:
>>> Corrosive to the skin. Skin contact causes serious skin burns which may
>>> not be immediately apparent or painful. Symptoms may be delayed 8 hours
>>> or longer. The fluoride ion readily penetrates the skin causing
>>> destruction of deep tissue layers and even bone
>>>
>>> and this paragraph:
>>>
>>> FOR ACID BURNS TO THE BODY: 1) Remove the victim from the contaminated
>>> area and
>>> immediately place him under a safety shower or wash him with a water
>>> hose, whichever is
>>> available. 2) Remove all contaminated clothing. 3) Keep washing with
>>> large amounts of water for a
>>> minimum of 15 to 20 minutes. 4) Have someone make arrangements for
>>> medical attention while
>>> you continue flushing the affected area with water. 5) a) If available,
>>> after thorough washing, the
>>> burned area should be immersed in a solution of 0.2% iced aqueous
>>> Hyamine 1622 or 0.13% iced
>>> aqueous Zephiran Chloride. If immersion is not practical, towels should
>>> be soaked with one of the
>>> above solutions and used as compresses for the burn area. Ideally
>>> compresses should be changed
>>> every 2 minutes. 5) b) An alternative treatment to 5a is for the
>>> physician to inject sterile 10%
>>> aqueous calcium gluconate solution subcutaneously beneath, around, and
>>> in the burned area.
>>> Initially use no more than 0.5 cc per square centimeter and do not
>>> distort appearance of skin. If
>>> pain is not completely relieved, additional treatment is indicated. 6)
>>> Seek medical attention as soon
>>> as possible for all burns regardless of how minor they may appear
>>> initially.
>>>
>>> this isn't something you want to be telling people to use casually.
>>>
>>> "Wayne Sallee" > wrote in message
>>> ...
>>>
>>>> I have hydroflouric acid at home. I have a 13% diluted bottle here at
>>>> the store that I made up, and put in a drip bottle. It's great for
>>>> cleaning coroded electrical parts. Hcl acid will clean up the corosion,
>>>> but the remaining cl ions will cause more corrosion afterwards, but the
>>>> hydrofouric acid doesnt. I have not experimented with it for disolving
>>>> glass, except to see if the 13% would have any effect on glass. I used
>>>> to work on a printing press, and it was used in deletion pens for
>>>> taking off marks on the plates.
>>>>
>>>> As far as exposer to the skin with strong hydroflouric acid, I would
>>>> just flush with water, and then rub in some lime paist, and then wash
>>>> with shampoo. Shapoo works great for getting the hight ph off of your
>>>> hands. The amonium cloride, and amonium sulfate in the shampoo make a
>>>> great nutrilizer for that. And it gives off smelly amonia in the
>>>> process. When it no longer gives off amonia, you know it's nuritized
>>>> the high ph stuff on your hands.
>>>>
>>>> Wayne Sallee
>>>> Wayne's Pets
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Roy wrote on 1/19/2006 4:32 PM:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I would not bet on it being dilutable in water, or at least to the
>>>>> point its abloe to be washed off the skin and you get nothing more
>>>>> than a chemical burn as it does nothing to stop the action of it
>>>>> eating muscle and nerve tissue without the injection directly into the
>>>>> affected area no matter how much water you pour on it. ........and you
>>>>> may be surprised just how fast a constant flow of fresh acid will eat
>>>>> a hole in the glass. I used to use the stuff all the time, as a side
>>>>> line business of cleaning out beer coil cleaning equipment. It was a
>>>>> good money maker when I lived up north. The business flush their beer
>>>>> distribution lines, cooling coils etc on the taps etc with glass beads
>>>>> after so many kegs are run through so it cleans out any accumulated
>>>>> scum. There is a method and a certain air pressure needed, and
>>>>> sometimes due to a restriction or kink or such in a line glass beads
>>>>> would just clog up and pack tight. No amount of air pressure or heat
>>>>> will remove it, only way is with hydroflouric acid. Any other way was
>>>>> futile. I used to clean the glass bead restrictions form distribution
>>>>> lines ots of times, so I have used quite a bit of this stuff in the
>>>>> past......Have had two injections of the antidote as well, and it was
>>>>> at the point I used top have a perscription to buy it to keep it on
>>>>> hand for when I needed it........It was not expensive but not normally
>>>>> available due to HFA not being so readily used as other chemicials
>>>>> were.. I have cut or should say disolved many neat intricate patterns
>>>>> on glassware for the wife and etched neat patterns on plate glass etc.
>>>>>
>>>>> The special coating is a gel of calcium gluconate and also zephiran
>>>>> chloride is used as an neutralizer antidote. The chloride solution was
>>>>> the hardest thing to find when you needed help. H2F2 is nasty stuff
>>>>> to say the least
>>>>>
>>>>> On Thu, 19 Jan 2006 20:50:14 GMT, Wayne Sallee >
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>> <>Roy wrote on 1/19/2006 3:14 PM:
>>>>>>> <>> <>> You can buy hydro flouric acid if you want to make holes
>>>>>>> with a
>>>>>>> <>> chemical............works great, easy to use and extremely fast.
>>>>>>> You
>>>>>>> <>> can make a mask out of rubber tape, add a little clay or putty
>>>>>>> dam and
>>>>>>> <>> fill it up and let it dissolved right through the glass just
>>>>>>> like a
>>>>>>> <>> CNC miling machine or router would cut it out....unfortunately
>>>>>>> <>> hydroflouric acid is extremely hazzardous, and if you get it on
>>>>>>> you
>>>>>>> <>> your probably gonna be ruined for life. ONly one antedote to
>>>>>>> stop it
>>>>>>> <>> from eating flesh and thats a shot with some kind of globulin
>>>>>>> stuff
>>>>>>> <>> which is not all that readily available..without it, the stuff
>>>>>>> is
>>>>>>> <>> impervious to water, and other agents to dilute it.....so you
>>>>>>> just
>>>>>>> <>> have to wait until its expended and in the interim your flesh is
>>>>>>> <>> literally melted away...........
>>>>>>> <>> <>
>>>>>>> <>Hydroflouric acid eches the glass fairly quickly, but I <>would
>>>>>>> imagine it would take a long time for it to cut all <>the way
>>>>>>> through the glass on an aquarium.
>>>>>>> <>
>>>>>>> <>Hydroflouric acid is dilutable with water.
>>>>>>> <>
>>>>>>> <>
>>>>>>> <>Wayne Sallee
>>>>>>> <>Wayne's Pets
>>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>

[Roy]

Oh well, some learn some never do, but it seems you always have an
answer to everything wayne..To virtually everyone out there H2F2 is
nasty stuff yet even in dilute amounts you merely wipe it on your
pants and rinse later.......Rinsing it off with shampoo is fine for
you but the medical world does not agree on that.....or they would not
have such a mandated requirement for ANY treatment if exposed to any
H2F2 no matter wihat its strength is..... I gues I can see why they
had that program on TV a long time ago IIRC called Waynes
World......it seems to be taken off yur methods and views of various
things as being totally opposite of what they really are......

Using H2Fs to clean electrical contacts is absurd, there is a multitde
of other safe methods to use.....about inline with wiping your hands
on your pants and not worrying about it as its only 13%........duh!
--
\\\|///
( @ @ )
-----------oOOo(_)oOOo---------------


oooO
---------( )----Oooo----------------
\ ( ( )
\_) ) /
(_/
The original frugal ponder! Koi-ahoi mates....

[Wayne Sallee]

Roy wrote on 1/20/2006 9:42 AM:
> but it seems you always have an
> answer to everything wayne

So are you saying that you don't want to know the anwer to
all your questions?

Wayne Sallee
Wayne's Pets

[Jaime R-S]

Wao, this guy is unbelievable....
jrs
"Wayne Sallee" > wrote in message
...
> Roy wrote on 1/20/2006 9:42 AM:
>> but it seems you always have an
>> answer to everything wayne
>
> So are you saying that you don't want to know the anwer to all your
> questions?
>
> Wayne Sallee
> Wayne's Pets
>

[George Patterson]

Jaime R-S wrote:
> Wao, this guy is unbelievable....

I think that was Roy's point. :-)

George Patterson
Coffee is only a way of stealing time that should by rights belong to
your slightly older self.