View Full Version : Nippyfish.net???
Tynk
January 8th 06, 04:17 PM
Hey folks.
I was wondering....
Is it somebody that posts here that is the person behind Nippyfish.net,
or were they from another group?
I can't stand it that this person has good general info on their site,
and then goes and blows it by adding crap about how a flare buddy for a
male Betta is actually bad and harms them.
It makes me mad because of the lack of good sites regarding factual
information on these fish.
She had a good going, until it got stinky.
I've got 28 yrs with specialzing in these fish. I'm not just some
person who had a few males and figures they were fine having flare
buddies.
Of course when having Bettas next to each other (their tanks) we need
to use a little common sense. Something so many people lack these days
when it comes to keeping Bettas.
1st. They all have individual personalites!!!!!!!!!
That is a cardinal rule.
Now take that little gem, and add it the flare buddy situation.
Say you have 3 males in 1g's all in a row next to each other.
For this will go with tank 1-2- and 3 (left to right).
Betta 1 is overly aggressive and will not stop flaring at Betta
2...Betta 2 and 3 flare for a while and then go on about their
business. 20 minutes later they're back at it for a few mintues and
then back to resting.
Betta 1 is still going nuts. Instead of just dismissing him as being
overly aggressive, you swithch them around before making an opinion.
Now you it set up..1-3-2...got it. Ya switched around the tanks so that
Betta 1 has a different fish to flare to. If his behavior is the same,
and constantly flaring aggressivly, then you can make the opinion that
he's overly aggressive and shouldn't have a flare buddy.
Sometimes these males are better off with a mirror for flaring.
Sometimes you'll find out that that particular Betta did NOT like his
next door neighbor, but like a different male just fine and goes on to
do the normal flare for a few, go on about your business, flare at
feeding time, etc.
That's what you're looking for. Males that will flare for exercise for
a matter of minutes and then rest or hunt for food, or even just hang
out on a plant.
People tend to forget what these fish are pre-programmed to do.
To a male Betta, it's all about show. It's all about look how big and
bad I am.
When you remove that from a male Betta's life, you are removing a very
important part.
It is up to the keeper to reccognize what personality type your Betta
is, what his likes and dislikes are.
This is not rocket science folks, it's pertty much just common sense.
If your male is stressed (scared) or overly aggressive (flares 24/7
either at a flare buddy or reflection) then you need to switch things
around for him.
Figure out what his individual needs are. Is it that he needs to be
alone, or that he needs a different buddy. It could be that he just
hates that one guy and nothing more than that.
To claim that having a flare buddy is harmful is complete bullcrappy!
Use your head people.
If you remove the one thing, besides breeding, that these fish are
hardwired for, without putting them together of course, then you are
keeping a major part of their life away from them.
Clip a wild bird's wings so they can no longer fly and see how happy
they are.
Keep a Dolphin from jumping into the air, and see how happy they are.
If you keep a male Betta from being able to show off to another male,
you are doing the same thing.
*note*
When it comes to show fish, this doesn't apply.
The breeder wants every male to show off aggressively when the paper
card is pulled from between their jars for flaring at a Betta show.
Males that are used to seeing other males can become used to them and
not flare so violently. This is why having flare buddies for show fish
doesn't apply.
Ok, getting off my soapbox, but I'm still ticked! = /
NetMax
January 9th 06, 02:55 PM
"Tynk" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> Hey folks.
> I was wondering....
> Is it somebody that posts here that is the person behind Nippyfish.net,
> or were they from another group?
<pulled soapbox>
Nippyfish is written by IDzine01. She posts in alt.aquaria. I trust
you'll be your usual diplomatic self ;~) as she is a very good poster.
--
www.NetMax.tk
Tynk
January 9th 06, 04:01 PM
NetMax wrote:
> "Tynk" > wrote in message
> oups.com...
> > Hey folks.
> > I was wondering....
> > Is it somebody that posts here that is the person behind Nippyfish.net,
> > or were they from another group?
>
>
> <pulled soapbox>
>
> Nippyfish is written by IDzine01. She posts in alt.aquaria. I trust
> you'll be your usual diplomatic self ;~) as she is a very good poster.
> --
> www.NetMax.tk
> Nippyfish is written by IDzine01. She posts in alt.aquaria. I trust
> you'll be your usual diplomatic self ;~) as she is a very good poster.
> --
> www.NetMax.tk
Yes, that's who it was! I knew it was either somebody here or on
"Advanced Bettas".
This is just one thing that I just cannot believe she really thinks.
She's great with Betta knowledge, but when it comes to this one thing,
she's off the mark.
And yes, I'm not going to rip her a new one, I just would like her to
understand that bettas need this in their lives. That is doesn't do
harm to them. That of course common sense when doing so needs to be
applied.
Like I said in my original post...
Elderly...some prefer buddies, some don't.
Sick...obvious reasons why not to.
Overly shy/submissive males shouldn't have them.
However, in general yes..they do need to be able to flare at one
another daily.
I sure would like to see some proof that it harms them.
Some folks are so sure about this, but where's the proof.
I've seen proof of it benifitting my own fish, over a 28 yr time period
and counting.
IDzine01
January 9th 06, 06:19 PM
Tynk, I know how you feel about flare buddies. You and I have debated
it on several occasions. I have said the same thing about you before.
"I agree with almost all her advice but there's just a couple of
things..." Flare buddies being the big one.
For what it's worth I respect your many years of experience and have
discussed this topic endlessly with other hobbyists. Coupling that with
my own experience I came to the conclusion indicated in my article. I'm
not certain if you read the whole article but I do believe that "flare
buddies" (I hate that term) do have their place.
Here's a quote:
"It is true that Bettas would naturally come across other males in the
wild. These interactions would be sporadic and reproducing these
limited interactions in a domestic setting can be safe if done
properly. First, never force sick or listless Bettas to flare at other
males. When their immune systems have been compromised they should be
focusing on getting better, not on fighting other bettas. Only healthy
Bettas should be allowed to flare at other males and this interaction
should be limited to about 10 - 15 minute intervals. If you don't
have another male to place near your Betta, you can show him his
reflection for a few minutes in a mirror or other reflective surface.
You might even notice your Betta flaring at himself in his reflection
in the aquarium glass. This is all fine for an already healthy Betta."
I think my description of flare buddies is accurate and my advice is
responsible.
Here's the link if anyone wants to add their 2 cents. I'm always
willing to change my opinion if the argument is there. ;-)
http://www.nippyfish.net/flarebuddies.html
Just be constructive... I put my whole heart into this website.
-IDzine01
Tynk
January 10th 06, 10:21 PM
IDzine01 wrote:
> Tynk, I know how you feel about flare buddies. You and I have debated
> it on several occasions. I have said the same thing about you before.
> "I agree with almost all her advice but there's just a couple of
> things..." Flare buddies being the big one.
>
> For what it's worth I respect your many years of experience and have
> discussed this topic endlessly with other hobbyists. Coupling that with
> my own experience I came to the conclusion indicated in my article. I'm
> not certain if you read the whole article but I do believe that "flare
> buddies" (I hate that term) do have their place.
>
> Here's a quote:
>
> "It is true that Bettas would naturally come across other males in the
> wild. These interactions would be sporadic and reproducing these
> limited interactions in a domestic setting can be safe if done
> properly. First, never force sick or listless Bettas to flare at other
> males. When their immune systems have been compromised they should be
> focusing on getting better, not on fighting other bettas. Only healthy
> Bettas should be allowed to flare at other males and this interaction
> should be limited to about 10 - 15 minute intervals. If you don't
> have another male to place near your Betta, you can show him his
> reflection for a few minutes in a mirror or other reflective surface.
> You might even notice your Betta flaring at himself in his reflection
> in the aquarium glass. This is all fine for an already healthy Betta."
>
> I think my description of flare buddies is accurate and my advice is
> responsible.
>
> Here's the link if anyone wants to add their 2 cents. I'm always
> willing to change my opinion if the argument is there. ;-)
>
> http://www.nippyfish.net/flarebuddies.html
>
> Just be constructive... I put my whole heart into this website.
>
> -IDzine01
Christie, did you not quote the entire paragraph or did you change your
web page?
I ask because what you quoted doesn't have the part about where you
said it *harms* them. That is what I totally disagree with.
Don't forget, I respect you too! = )
I'll add again, that beside that one point, it's a great site.
I would like to recommend it to folks too, but I can't with it saying
that having a flare buddy living next to them will do them harm.
If you changed it to explain it in total detail, such as some elderly
fish (I have 2 elderly right now that love having flare buddies
constantly and one of them is over 5 yrs old), sick or overly
submissive males, or overly aggressive for that matter, shouldn't have
them.
Just leave out the part where you say it harms them.
Say something like you have to understand which type of Betta you have
and his individual personality, how some prefer them, some hate them,
etc.
C'mon, pleeeeease, pretty please. = )
IDzine01
January 11th 06, 06:43 PM
LOL
This is the paragraph you don't like Tynk:
"First, I should say that Flare Buddies do not benefit your fish; in
fact the constant exposure to another male may actually be causing
harm. I equate being forced to constantly view a competing male to
having a burglar poised outside your house day and night. At first you
would be ready and waiting but over time you would grow tired and
stressed. Soon your body would be putting all its energy into the
imminent threat outside and not into protecting your immune system and
mental health. Eventually your body would suffer and you would be open
to illness and disease. I believe this is very similar for Bettas. As
long as they are constantly defending their territory they cannot focus
on living and thriving."
I can't, in good faith, change my article until I am convinced of the
contrary. I'm not entirely alone in my theory either. This is something
I discussed with other hobbyists, which lead me to form the opinion I
have. I guess, I just need evidence that when two competing animals are
made to coexist over time some sort of positive stimulus is produced. I
just don't think we're ever going to find that.
I will look into it some more Tynk, incase there is something I have
missed. I'll see if I can reach a vet or an animal behaviorist whose
opinion will be unbiased. I did raise this question among veterinarians
before but this time I won't allow them to know my personal opinion
before hearing their answer. I'll let you know if I hear anything back.
It's a start... You didn't actually think I'd change my entire Flare
Buddy theory over night? ;-)
Either no one else has an opinion on this or they just don't want to
get involved in Tynk vs. IDzine in the Pay-Per-View Chic Fight of the
Century. I'd think the boys would be lovin' it. ;-)
talk to you soon.
Christie
Elaine T
January 11th 06, 08:03 PM
IDzine01 wrote:
> LOL
>
> This is the paragraph you don't like Tynk:
>
> "First, I should say that Flare Buddies do not benefit your fish; in
> fact the constant exposure to another male may actually be causing
> harm. I equate being forced to constantly view a competing male to
> having a burglar poised outside your house day and night. At first you
> would be ready and waiting but over time you would grow tired and
> stressed. Soon your body would be putting all its energy into the
> imminent threat outside and not into protecting your immune system and
> mental health. Eventually your body would suffer and you would be open
> to illness and disease. I believe this is very similar for Bettas. As
> long as they are constantly defending their territory they cannot focus
> on living and thriving."
>
> I can't, in good faith, change my article until I am convinced of the
> contrary. I'm not entirely alone in my theory either. This is something
> I discussed with other hobbyists, which lead me to form the opinion I
> have. I guess, I just need evidence that when two competing animals are
> made to coexist over time some sort of positive stimulus is produced. I
> just don't think we're ever going to find that.
>
> I will look into it some more Tynk, incase there is something I have
> missed. I'll see if I can reach a vet or an animal behaviorist whose
> opinion will be unbiased. I did raise this question among veterinarians
> before but this time I won't allow them to know my personal opinion
> before hearing their answer. I'll let you know if I hear anything back.
>
>
> It's a start... You didn't actually think I'd change my entire Flare
> Buddy theory over night? ;-)
>
> Either no one else has an opinion on this or they just don't want to
> get involved in Tynk vs. IDzine in the Pay-Per-View Chic Fight of the
> Century. I'd think the boys would be lovin' it. ;-)
>
> talk to you soon.
> Christie
Heh. we all know better! I don't see how this argument can possibly be
resolved through observation of behavior alone, though. You two need
some hard data like plasma cortisol levels. After a quick scan of the
literature my guess is that the fish that perceives itself as dominant
will be fine, but the subordinate will suffer chronic stress. This is
what has been demonstrated in cichlids and other aggressive fish by
measuring plasma cortisol. Actual contact between the fish is not
necessary to set up a dominance heirarchy.
This fellow http://www2.gsu.edu/~biorle/CV.htm may be able to help
resolve the issue. The other place to try is the Department of Animal
Behavior at the University of Copenhagen.
http://www.zi.ku.dk/animbehav/ They are doing some research on bettas.
You can also pick up some interesting references by searching "plasma
cortisol betta" on Google Scholar.
--
Elaine T __
http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><
rec.aquaria.* FAQ http://faq.thekrib.com
Koi-lo
January 11th 06, 10:59 PM
"IDzine01" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> Either no one else has an opinion on this or they just don't want to
> get involved in Tynk vs. IDzine in the Pay-Per-View Chic Fight of the
> Century. I'd think the boys would be lovin' it. ;-)
==================
I'm with you on this one. I don't think it's healthy for them to have to
feel constantly threatened by another male so close by. But to see another
and flare a little probably doesn't hurt them if you put something between
the bowls the rest of the time. I've been wondering about this issue for
awhile since all my bettas can see each other all the time now. I think
I'll move the bowls and tanks further apart....... or go back to putting
cardboard between them for most of the day.
--
Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
Aquariums since 1952
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
NEW PAGE: Aquariums:
http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastadaisy/Aquarium-Page4.html
http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastadaisy
~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>
Tynk
January 16th 06, 10:44 PM
IDzine01 wrote:
> LOL
>
> This is the paragraph you don't like Tynk:
>
> "First, I should say that Flare Buddies do not benefit your fish; in
> fact the constant exposure to another male may actually be causing
> harm. I equate being forced to constantly view a competing male to
> having a burglar poised outside your house day and night. At first you
> would be ready and waiting but over time you would grow tired and
> stressed. Soon your body would be putting all its energy into the
> imminent threat outside and not into protecting your immune system and
> mental health. Eventually your body would suffer and you would be open
> to illness and disease. I believe this is very similar for Bettas. As
> long as they are constantly defending their territory they cannot focus
> on living and thriving."
>
> I can't, in good faith, change my article until I am convinced of the
> contrary. I'm not entirely alone in my theory either. This is something
> I discussed with other hobbyists, which lead me to form the opinion I
> have. I guess, I just need evidence that when two competing animals are
> made to coexist over time some sort of positive stimulus is produced. I
> just don't think we're ever going to find that.
>
> I will look into it some more Tynk, incase there is something I have
> missed. I'll see if I can reach a vet or an animal behaviorist whose
> opinion will be unbiased. I did raise this question among veterinarians
> before but this time I won't allow them to know my personal opinion
> before hearing their answer. I'll let you know if I hear anything back.
>
>
> It's a start... You didn't actually think I'd change my entire Flare
> Buddy theory over night? ;-)
>
> Either no one else has an opinion on this or they just don't want to
> get involved in Tynk vs. IDzine in the Pay-Per-View Chic Fight of the
> Century. I'd think the boys would be lovin' it. ;-)
>
> talk to you soon.
> Christie
> It's a start... You didn't actually think I'd change my entire Flare
> Buddy theory over night? ;-)
>
> Either no one else has an opinion on this or they just don't want to
> get involved in Tynk vs. IDzine in the Pay-Per-View Chic Fight of the
> Century. I'd think the boys would be lovin' it. ;-)
>
> talk to you soon.
> Christie
Haha, ::tosses you smooches::
Hmm...what to wear.....
Over night change...nope. I want you to experience it for your self.
I currently still have that old male that got depressed when I took his
buddy away for breeding purposes. The buddy died a while back, and this
poor guy became listless and so thin. I gave him up for *dead any
minute* several times.
I had a different male in his old buddies tank and he could care less
about him.
I recently changed that male with another older male and both are quite
happy being next to each other.
My old, depressed guy has once again sprung back to life, and even blew
a nest recently. He stopped blowing nests a year and a half ago.
I don't know why he's so picky.
He now flares again for a minute or so and then goes and relaxes. Same
with his new buddy.
That's 2 times he's come back from death's door because of a fish next
to his tank.
I know this fish is crazy, but I've seen him turn so completely around
twice that I can only hope you get to experience something like it.
I also have 3 males that are currently in 1g's next to each other on my
dresser.
They could give a rats behind for one another. They completely ignore
each other.
One of them would rather bite his own tail too. I've switched them
around and it makes no difference. They could care less. I've not seen
any of these boys in a good flare since I don't know when really.
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