Styrofoam structure #2

[NetMax]

Far from finished, but I put some pictures on an unlinked page of my
site.
http://www.2cah.com/netmax/diy_projects/sculpture2/sculpture2.shtml

I never really know what it'll look like until it's finished, and it'll
be months before I'm done, but it's coming along nicely. All that's left
is sealing, siliconing, driftwood, planting, glass cover
design/purchase/assemble and canopy/lighting design/construction.... and
of course, add fish ;~).

cheers
--
www.NetMax.tk

[Koi-lo]

"NetMax" > wrote in message
. ..
> Far from finished, but I put some pictures on an unlinked page of my site.
> http://www.2cah.com/netmax/diy_projects/sculpture2/sculpture2.shtml
==========================
I think it would look a little more natural if the holes were rounded off
and the groves were not dead straight. Just my opinion........ :-)
--

Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
Aquariums since 1952
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
NEW PAGE: Aquariums:
http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastadaisy/Aquarium-Page4.html
http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastadaisy
~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>

[§tudz]

"NetMax" > wrote in message
. ..
> Far from finished, but I put some pictures on an unlinked page of my site.
> http://www.2cah.com/netmax/diy_projects/sculpture2/sculpture2.shtml
>
> I never really know what it'll look like until it's finished, and it'll be
> months before I'm done, but it's coming along nicely. All that's left is
> sealing, siliconing, driftwood, planting, glass cover
> design/purchase/assemble and canopy/lighting design/construction.... and
> of course, add fish ;~).
>
> cheers
> --
> www.NetMax.tk
>

An impressive peice if work, what sort of paint do you use? as I thought
alot of paints were able to leach into the water?
and how long does styrofoam last in a tank?

§tudz

[NetMax]

"§tudz" > wrote in message
...
>
> "NetMax" > wrote in message
> . ..
>> Far from finished, but I put some pictures on an unlinked page of my
>> site.
>> http://www.2cah.com/netmax/diy_projects/sculpture2/sculpture2.shtml
>>
>> I never really know what it'll look like until it's finished, and
>> it'll be months before I'm done, but it's coming along nicely. All
>> that's left is sealing, siliconing, driftwood, planting, glass cover
>> design/purchase/assemble and canopy/lighting design/construction....
>> and of course, add fish ;~).
>>
>> cheers
>> --
>> www.NetMax.tk
>>
>
> An impressive peice if work, what sort of paint do you use? as I
> thought alot of paints were able to leach into the water?
> and how long does styrofoam last in a tank?
>
> §tudz


I used whatever paint I had in the garage which was latex, but the first
coat was a mix heavy in white primer. Because the epoxy seals over the
paint, I'm not worried about any water-paint contact symptoms. I did
avoid paints with fungicide (anti-mildew) because they are so toxic to
fish. In theory, the epoxy would protect the fish, but I don't want to
test that theory, and there are always spots I could miss. Small amounts
of latex paint would probably just harmlessly decompose on contact with
water, but fungicide is a different story.

The life expectancy would be determined by the epoxy (think about
epoxy-sealed wooden watercraft). I imagine it's well beyond the
remaining life expectancy of anyone old enough to build such a project
;~).
--
www.NetMax.tk

[NetMax]

"Koi-lo" > wrote in message
...
>
> "NetMax" > wrote in message
> . ..
>> Far from finished, but I put some pictures on an unlinked page of my
>> site.
>> http://www.2cah.com/netmax/diy_projects/sculpture2/sculpture2.shtml
> ==========================
> I think it would look a little more natural if the holes were rounded
> off and the groves were not dead straight. Just my opinion........
> :-)
> --
>
> Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...


Yes, I started it that way as well. Random oval holes in the density
that I wanted, didn't look natural to me, sort of like an underwater
anthill at the wrong scale. That's when I switched to a cracked layers
of shale look. This let me put in the high quantity of holes I wanted,
by following the cracks. I then experimented with which angles to round
off and which to leave sharp, probably with only minimal success ;~).
When it comes to carving and painting, that natural 'look' can be very
elusive, and mistakes (slip of the wrist) produce features which actually
look the most natural. If I was less 'engineer' and more 'artist', the
natural appearance would have been better, but once covered in driftwood,
algae and plants, its 'organization' should be better disguised. Thanks
for the feedback.
--
www.NetMax.tk

[Larry Blanchard]

NetMax wrote:

> Far from finished, but I put some pictures on an unlinked page of my
> site.
> http://www.2cah.com/netmax/diy_projects/sculpture2/sculpture2.shtml
>

I noticed on this one that you didn't say anything about sealing with a
heat gun as you did on a previous project. I had thought that was a
bit of overkill, apparently you came to the same conclusion :-).

I just tried making some backdrop cliffs from potters clay. I let them
dry for a couple of weeks, fired them in my wife's kiln, and they all
exploded! Back to the drawing board. I'll try once more and then give
up and use the foam.

I've been playing around with cork too - I'll post when I have some
results worth noting.

It's probably too late, but if you could tilt the whole thing a little
so it looked like an upthrust I think it would look more natural.

--
It's turtles, all the way down

[Koi-lo]

"NetMax" > wrote in message
. ..
> "Koi-lo" > wrote in message
>> I think it would look a little more natural if the holes were rounded off
>> and the groves were not dead straight. Just my opinion........
---------------------------->
If I was less 'engineer' and more 'artist', the
> natural appearance would have been better, but once covered in driftwood,
> algae and plants, its 'organization' should be better disguised. Thanks
> for the feedback.
================
I thought of that AFTER I hit the send button. :-) Once in the tank for
awhile it will have a much more natural appearance. I await it's completion
and pics showing what it looks like after being in a tank for awhile.
--

Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
Aquariums since 1952
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
NEW PAGE: Aquariums:
http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastadaisy/Aquarium-Page4.html
http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastadaisy
~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>

[Elaine T]

NetMax wrote:
> Far from finished, but I put some pictures on an unlinked page of my
> site.
> http://www.2cah.com/netmax/diy_projects/sculpture2/sculpture2.shtml
>
> I never really know what it'll look like until it's finished, and it'll
> be months before I'm done, but it's coming along nicely. All that's left
> is sealing, siliconing, driftwood, planting, glass cover
> design/purchase/assemble and canopy/lighting design/construction.... and
> of course, add fish ;~).
>
> cheers

Neat look, but I'm actually more impressed by the cool DIY stand. I
really like the simple, elegant design.

--
Elaine T __
http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><
rec.aquaria.* FAQ http://faq.thekrib.com

[NetMax]

"Larry Blanchard" > wrote in message
...
> NetMax wrote:
>
>> Far from finished, but I put some pictures on an unlinked page of my
>> site.
>> http://www.2cah.com/netmax/diy_projects/sculpture2/sculpture2.shtml
>>
>
> I noticed on this one that you didn't say anything about sealing with a
> heat gun as you did on a previous project. I had thought that was a
> bit of overkill, apparently you came to the same conclusion :-).

Actually no, I just omitted many technical details. I use the heat gun
at two stages. After carving, some of the surfaces have a furry texture.
The heat gun causes these 'hair' to fold (melt) in on themselves. This
makes the painting and sanding much easier. During sealing, I use a slow
hardener to give me more working time (about 25 minutes), but after it
has been applied, I go over it with the heat gun. This causes the
resin/epoxy to become more liquid (better penetrating into the styrofoam
pores) and it speeds up the chemical reaction (which is a combination of
exothermic and ambient temperature).

> I just tried making some backdrop cliffs from potters clay. I let them
> dry for a couple of weeks, fired them in my wife's kiln, and they all
> exploded! Back to the drawing board. I'll try once more and then give
> up and use the foam.

http://www.avesstudio.com/aves/ has a self-hardening clay which they tell
me is non-toxic and fish-safe. It's on my list of things to investigate,
though I think the only thing worst than my ability to sculpt styrofoam,
would be my ability to form clay into acceptable shapes ;~).

> I've been playing around with cork too - I'll post when I have some
> results worth noting.

Please do :o).

> It's probably too late, but if you could tilt the whole thing a little
> so it looked like an upthrust I think it would look more natural.

Not too late, I would just need to slice a section off of the bottom at
an angle. It's actually an excellent idea! The only drawback in my
case, is that I need to slide the filter components upwards & out for
periodic servicing, so I would have to position the structure forwards to
maintain this ability. The space remaining between the front glass & the
structure is a constant compromise in purchased tanks :-( I really need
a 30" or deeper distance to work in. I'm going to investigate that,
thanks Larry.
--
www.NetMax.tk

> --
> It's turtles, all the way down

[Gill Passman]

Elaine T wrote:
> NetMax wrote:
>
>> Far from finished, but I put some pictures on an unlinked page of my
>> site.
>> http://www.2cah.com/netmax/diy_projects/sculpture2/sculpture2.shtml
>>
>> I never really know what it'll look like until it's finished, and
>> it'll be months before I'm done, but it's coming along nicely. All
>> that's left is sealing, siliconing, driftwood, planting, glass cover
>> design/purchase/assemble and canopy/lighting design/construction....
>> and of course, add fish ;~).
>>
>> cheers
>
>
> Neat look, but I'm actually more impressed by the cool DIY stand. I
> really like the simple, elegant design.
>
I'm afraid that I lack the imagination to envisage the eventual
structure so will be interested to see how it turns out. Right now it
reminds me of some sort of ancient monument which I think is down to the
even holes cut for the caves and the colour of course. I like the way
that you have cut into the back to hide the equipment...

I also was drawn by the stand...looks great :-)

Gill

[NetMax]

"NetMax" > wrote in message
...
> "Larry Blanchard" > wrote in message
> ...
>> NetMax wrote:
>>
>>> Far from finished, but I put some pictures on an unlinked page of my
>>> site.
>>> http://www.2cah.com/netmax/diy_projects/sculpture2/sculpture2.shtml
>>>
>>
<snip>
>> It's probably too late, but if you could tilt the whole thing a little
>> so it looked like an upthrust I think it would look more natural.
>
> Not too late, I would just need to slice a section off of the bottom at
> an angle. It's actually an excellent idea! The only drawback in my
> case, is that I need to slide the filter components upwards & out for
> periodic servicing, so I would have to position the structure forwards
> to maintain this ability. The space remaining between the front glass
> & the structure is a constant compromise in purchased tanks :-( I
> really need a 30" or deeper distance to work in. I'm going to
> investigate that, thanks Larry.


I checked this out. Due to the height/width ratio, the structure would
be angled too far back before it became noticeably at the caves. This is
too bad because the extra light entering the caves would have been good,
however I later realized that this wouldn't work at all. With this type
of a structure (honey-combed with caves), it's going to be impossible to
catch a particular fish with a net. My strategy will be to drain the
tank to only a few inches to do a catch. If the caves are angled
backwards, they will get trapped inside (and may or may not be possible
to retrieve). If the caves are level or angled forwards, the fish will
be forced forwards to stay in the water, where they will be captured at
the bottom. That's the theory anyways ;~).

This would have been neat as a Cory species structure too. Then the
caves would be closer and more connected horizontally, like an apartment
complex for catfish. Now that would make an interesting look, a vertical
wall of about 100 Corys of different species :o).

so many ideas, so little time ;~)
--
www.NetMax.tk

[Larry Blanchard]

NetMax wrote:


>> "Larry Blanchard" > wrote in message
>> ...

>>> It's probably too late, but if you could tilt the whole thing a
>>> little so it looked like an upthrust I think it would look more
>>> natural.
>>
>> Not too late, I would just need to slice a section off of the bottom
>> at an angle.

>
> I checked this out. Due to the height/width ratio, the structure
> would be angled too far back before it became noticeably at the
> caves. This is too bad because the extra light entering the caves
> would have been good,

I'm not sure we're on the same wave length here. You're talking angled
"back" and I meant from side to side. IOW, higher on the right end
than on the left - or vice versa.


--
It's turtles, all the way down

[NetMax]

"Larry Blanchard" > wrote in message
...
> NetMax wrote:
>
>
>>> "Larry Blanchard" > wrote in message
>>> ...
>
>>>> It's probably too late, but if you could tilt the whole thing a
>>>> little so it looked like an upthrust I think it would look more
>>>> natural.
>>>
>>> Not too late, I would just need to slice a section off of the bottom
>>> at an angle.
>
>>
>> I checked this out. Due to the height/width ratio, the structure
>> would be angled too far back before it became noticeably at the
>> caves. This is too bad because the extra light entering the caves
>> would have been good,
>
> I'm not sure we're on the same wave length here. You're talking angled
> "back" and I meant from side to side. IOW, higher on the right end
> than on the left - or vice versa.


Oh! that didn't even occur to me.
--
www.NetMax.tk

> --
> It's turtles, all the way down

[URBANFLAGE]

"NetMax" > wrote in message
. ..
> Far from finished, but I put some pictures on an unlinked page of my
> site.
> http://www.2cah.com/netmax/diy_projects/sculpture2/sculpture2.shtml
>
> I never really know what it'll look like until it's finished, and it'll
> be months before I'm done, but it's coming along nicely. All that's left
> is sealing, siliconing, driftwood, planting, glass cover
> design/purchase/assemble and canopy/lighting design/construction.... and
> of course, add fish ;~).
>
> cheers
> --
> www.NetMax.tk
>
>

very impressive

did you recess the power head? or would that make it too hard to clean?
do the caves connect in back?

I rent studio and kiln space from a local potter and have been making
ceramic driftwood with holes/caves. next project is a quarter round stump
with many knothole caves for the back corner of my tall 42 GAL 18x18x30 tank

brad

[NetMax]

"URBANFLAGE" > wrote in message
...
> "NetMax" > wrote in message
> . ..
>> Far from finished, but I put some pictures on an unlinked page of my
>> site.
>> http://www.2cah.com/netmax/diy_projects/sculpture2/sculpture2.shtml
>>
>> I never really know what it'll look like until it's finished, and
>> it'll
>> be months before I'm done, but it's coming along nicely. All that's
>> left
>> is sealing, siliconing, driftwood, planting, glass cover
>> design/purchase/assemble and canopy/lighting design/construction....
>> and
>> of course, add fish ;~).
>>
>> cheers
>> --
>> www.NetMax.tk
>>
>>
>
> very impressive

It is kind of *cough* large ;~)

> did you recess the power head? or would that make it too hard to clean?

Yes on recess, however it extends to the top so that I can slide the
powerhead up for servicing. I was a little concerned about the powerhead
getting too hot, so the recess is only half the powerhead's width.

> do the caves connect in back?

No, I didn't want to encourage their movement towards the back. With
easy access, the back would become part of their territory to control,
and like this, I expect they will not find too much attraction with going
back there (dark and no food). This is because the cichlids are all one
species of Julies (gypsy family), so they don't have the usual
territorial pressures.

Some of the caves interconnect to each other though, just to keep it
interesting.

> I rent studio and kiln space from a local potter and have been making
> ceramic driftwood with holes/caves. next project is a quarter round
> stump
> with many knothole caves for the back corner of my tall 42 GAL 18x18x30
> tank

That's an interesting shape tank. How about making that a full height
'stump' running down the centre of the tank. You could hide stuff inside
(internal filter, external filter hoses, submersible heater, powercords),
and with a little architecture, incorporate a series of caves
(independant of the heated/filtered compartment). Don't forget to
include some small 'pockets' on the outside, to fill with sand and then
plant with some ferns, riccia, etc.

I can be a bad influence ;~).

> brad

ps: watch those auratus
--
www.NetMax.tk

[Larry Blanchard]

URBANFLAGE wrote:


> I rent studio and kiln space from a local potter and have been making
> ceramic driftwood with holes/caves. next project is a quarter round
> stump with many knothole caves for the back corner of my tall 42 GAL
> 18x18x30 tank
>

Any secrets to the technique? As I mentioned in another post, I tried
firing some clay "cliffs" and they exploded in the kiln. And I'd let
them dry for a couple of weeks first.

--
It's turtles, all the way down

[URBANFLAGE]

I just use new clay like I use for throwing pots and have never had any
problems.
the same way I would build anything.........I'm not sure why you had
problems but usually exploding clay is caused by trapped air bubbles in the
clay. learn how to "wedge" or use new clay straight form the bag.

brad

"Larry Blanchard" > wrote in message
...
> URBANFLAGE wrote:
>
>
> > I rent studio and kiln space from a local potter and have been making
> > ceramic driftwood with holes/caves. next project is a quarter round
> > stump with many knothole caves for the back corner of my tall 42 GAL
> > 18x18x30 tank
> >
>
> Any secrets to the technique? As I mentioned in another post, I tried
> firing some clay "cliffs" and they exploded in the kiln. And I'd let
> them dry for a couple of weeks first.
>
> --
> It's turtles, all the way down

[spiral_72]

Well, I'm impressed. Very nice so far. I'm not going to be foolish
enough to offer suggestions. You are the expert at this point. Your
technique is more interesting to me then the appearance anyways.

I am waiting (im)patiently for it's completion!..........I've decided
to make a smaller structure for the 10 gallon fry tank, before I tackle
the 55g.

[NetMax]

"spiral_72" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> Well, I'm impressed. Very nice so far. I'm not going to be foolish
> enough to offer suggestions. You are the expert at this point. Your
> technique is more interesting to me then the appearance anyways.
>
> I am waiting (im)patiently for it's completion!..........I've decided
> to make a smaller structure for the 10 gallon fry tank, before I tackle
> the 55g.


At a rate of free weekends, my projects can drag on for quite a long time.
You might be finished your 10g structure before I finish the one I'm working
on now. If I can be of any help, just email me with your name (or mine) in
the subject line.

cheers
--
www.NetMax.tk

[Rocco Moretti]

NetMax wrote:
>
> The life expectancy would be determined by the epoxy (think about
> epoxy-sealed wooden watercraft). I imagine it's well beyond the
> remaining life expectancy of anyone old enough to build such a project
> ;~).

What type of Epoxy do you use, and where do you get it from?

[Richard Sexton]

In article >,
Rocco Moretti > wrote:
>NetMax wrote:
>>
>> The life expectancy would be determined by the epoxy (think about
>> epoxy-sealed wooden watercraft). I imagine it's well beyond the
>> remaining life expectancy of anyone old enough to build such a project
>> ;~).
>
>What type of Epoxy do you use, and where do you get it from?

What you might want to try instead is polyurethane glue. Lepages
(and others) make it, and it's not ar brittle as epoxy, but sticks
to plastic unlike silicone. And it's fish-safe.


--
Need Mercedes parts ? - http://parts.mbz.org
Richard Sexton | Mercedes stuff: http://mbz.org
1970 280SE, 72 280SE | Home page: http://rs79.vrx.net
633CSi 250SE/C 300SD | http://aquaria.net http://killi.net

[NetMax]

"Richard Sexton" > wrote in message
...
> In article >,
> Rocco Moretti > wrote:
>>NetMax wrote:
>>>
>>> The life expectancy would be determined by the epoxy (think about
>>> epoxy-sealed wooden watercraft). I imagine it's well beyond the
>>> remaining life expectancy of anyone old enough to build such a
>>> project
>>> ;~).
>>
>>What type of Epoxy do you use, and where do you get it from?
>
> What you might want to try instead is polyurethane glue. Lepages
> (and others) make it, and it's not ar brittle as epoxy, but sticks
> to plastic unlike silicone. And it's fish-safe.



Polyurethane glue sounds like a very good idea (but I have no experience
with it). Epoxy is a bit of a nuisance and like silicone, it also won't
stick to many plastics. I mix my epoxy in a margerine tub. Every few
days, I simply bend the tub and the hardened coats of epoxy simply pop
out, like a perfect liner.
--
www.NetMax.tk

> --
> Need Mercedes parts ? - http://parts.mbz.org
> Richard Sexton | Mercedes stuff: http://mbz.org
> 1970 280SE, 72 280SE | Home page: http://rs79.vrx.net
> 633CSi 250SE/C 300SD | http://aquaria.net http://killi.net

[spiral_72]

NetMax, I assume you use the silicone adhesive to bond styrofoam to
itself, right? My foam is a 3ft x 5ft x 2in thick sheet, so I'll have
to build it up for thickness.
Lastly, so far as you have noticed.... does the epoxy shrink as it
hardens?....... meaning, do I need to secure the foam to a flat surface
to retain a flat bottom to adhere to the glass?

Thanks (again)

[Rocco Moretti]

NetMax wrote:
> "Richard Sexton" > wrote in message
>>Rocco Moretti > wrote:
>>>
>>>What type of Epoxy do you use, and where do you get it from?
>>
>>What you might want to try instead is polyurethane glue. Lepages
>>(and others) make it, and it's not ar brittle as epoxy, but sticks
>>to plastic unlike silicone. And it's fish-safe.
>
> Polyurethane glue sounds like a very good idea (but I have no experience
> with it). Epoxy is a bit of a nuisance and like silicone, it also won't
> stick to many plastics. I mix my epoxy in a margerine tub. Every few
> days, I simply bend the tub and the hardened coats of epoxy simply pop
> out, like a perfect liner.

Er, what are you using the epoxy for, again? I was under the impression
you were painting it on the outside of the structure as a sealant. (And
using silicone to attach the structure to the tank).

From your description, I have no clue what you would do with a
margerine tub-shaped piece of hardened epoxy.

[NetMax]

"spiral_72" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> NetMax, I assume you use the silicone adhesive to bond styrofoam to
> itself, right? My foam is a 3ft x 5ft x 2in thick sheet, so I'll have
> to build it up for thickness.
> Lastly, so far as you have noticed.... does the epoxy shrink as it
> hardens?....... meaning, do I need to secure the foam to a flat surface
> to retain a flat bottom to adhere to the glass?
>
> Thanks (again)


My 1st structure was built from 2" extruded sheets. I used silicone to
secure them together. In hindsight, layering them vertically might have
been better than horizontally, something to consider, but it worked fine.

I didn't notice any shrinkage from the epoxy. For the base, what I did with
the current structure is sand it flat (ie: rub it over a concrete floor)
which also left a porous surface for the silicone to penetrate into. I
don't paint the underside, use the hot-air gun sparingly, and only used
epoxy in areas where I wanted to reinforce the material around anchoring
points (ie: drywall anchors and dovetail groove).

To silicone, clean the glass (vinegar, Windex etc), put a thick film of
silicone on the underside (putty knife), press into place and then place
weights (ie: books)on top of the structure to let it cure for 3 days. It's
a good idea to think about what weights you will use and having areas of the
structure to place them on (without their sliding off). hth
--
www.NetMax.tk

[spiral_72]

>Er, what are you using the epoxy for, again? I was under the impression
>you were painting it on the outside of the structure as a sealant. (And
>using silicone to attach the structure to the tank).

That's right

>From your description, I have no clue what you would do with a
>margerine tub-shaped piece of hardened epoxy.

The epoxy doesn't stick to the margerine tub. He mixes the epoxy in it,
on top of the previously hardened epoxy. When the "slug" becomes
somewhat sizeable, he pops it out (because epoxy doesn't stick to the
container) and uses the clean tub over again. I dunno about you, but it
makes sense to me. I'd run out of containers pretty quick if I used a
fresh one every time..... and I don't think my wife would let me use
her Tupperware.