Cannibal cichlids - advice please!

[Flash Wilson]

This is probably somewhat predictable, but here we go.. :)

I recently converted my 55g tank to a Malawi setup, since that
was what fish I had left. I have set up loads of caves of various
sizes, so there are far more spaces to hide than there are fish.
There's also some java moss, since it seems to grow everywhere
(it's even on the moisture in the lid!) And open swimming space
in the middle... although they keep rearranging the furniture :)
My tap water is pH 8 and quite hard, seems ideal. The tank is
overfiltered with both internal and external filters (either would
be enough, just, on their own).

So this seemed ok, and having looked everything up, checked what
the shop had in (although I now know some were misidentified), and
read the cichlid recipe site, I now have the following:

From before:

1 x clown syno
1 x pleco
(both catfish large but keep themselves to themselves)
1 x peacock (large, old and cranky, spends most time hiding)
2 x hornet cichlids (male about 4", female about 3")

and the newcomers (all 1-2"):

3 Mooriis (very small but holding their own)
3 Pseudotropheus Estherae (one is now getting bullied and losing tail)
2 Johannis (was 3)
2 Pseudotropheus Socolifi (was 4)

You can see where I'm going with this. Every few days we are a
fish shorter than we were before!

For what it's worth I don't think the bullies are the larger
fish that have been in the tank for ages, it seems to be the
estherae taking them on when I'm watching. They do all hurry
out of the way of the male hornet, but there's no conflict.

I had thought that I'd be overstocking (and was intending to
do so since the tank is overfiltered) but having seen the
fish in the tank, although they are lively and so it is always
interesting to watch, they don't seem very densely packed.

Should I be getting more fish to give the others a break?
Or should I reconcile myself to ending up with a few fat fish,
or having to restock every month?

Ideally, I'd like more of the socolifi, they're beautiful...
or the estherae (since most of the rest are blue), but they are
the bullies...

Oh dear! Oh well. So I've done my homework, but Ive screwed up ;)

Advice welcome!
--
Flash Wilson - Web Design & Mastery - 0870 401 4061 / 07939 579090
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Work: www.wdam.co.uk Personal: www.gorge.org

[NetMax]

"Flash Wilson" > wrote in message
...
> This is probably somewhat predictable, but here we go.. :)
>
> I recently converted my 55g tank to a Malawi setup, since that
> was what fish I had left. I have set up loads of caves of various
> sizes, so there are far more spaces to hide than there are fish.
> There's also some java moss, since it seems to grow everywhere
> (it's even on the moisture in the lid!) And open swimming space
> in the middle... although they keep rearranging the furniture :)
> My tap water is pH 8 and quite hard, seems ideal. The tank is
> overfiltered with both internal and external filters (either would
> be enough, just, on their own).
>
> So this seemed ok, and having looked everything up, checked what
> the shop had in (although I now know some were misidentified), and
> read the cichlid recipe site, I now have the following:
>
> From before:
>
> 1 x clown syno
> 1 x pleco
> (both catfish large but keep themselves to themselves)
> 1 x peacock (large, old and cranky, spends most time hiding)
> 2 x hornet cichlids (male about 4", female about 3")
>
> and the newcomers (all 1-2"):
>
> 3 Mooriis (very small but holding their own)
> 3 Pseudotropheus Estherae (one is now getting bullied and losing tail)
> 2 Johannis (was 3)
> 2 Pseudotropheus Socolifi (was 4)
>
> You can see where I'm going with this. Every few days we are a
> fish shorter than we were before!
>
> For what it's worth I don't think the bullies are the larger
> fish that have been in the tank for ages, it seems to be the
> estherae taking them on when I'm watching. They do all hurry
> out of the way of the male hornet, but there's no conflict.
>
> I had thought that I'd be overstocking (and was intending to
> do so since the tank is overfiltered) but having seen the
> fish in the tank, although they are lively and so it is always
> interesting to watch, they don't seem very densely packed.
>
> Should I be getting more fish to give the others a break?
> Or should I reconcile myself to ending up with a few fat fish,
> or having to restock every month?
>
> Ideally, I'd like more of the socolifi, they're beautiful...
> or the estherae (since most of the rest are blue), but they are
> the bullies...
>
> Oh dear! Oh well. So I've done my homework, but Ive screwed up ;)
>
> Advice welcome!
> --
> Flash Wilson - Web Design & Mastery - 0870 401 4061 / 07939 579090
> -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
> Work: www.wdam.co.uk Personal: www.gorge.org


I can only give you my opinion but here is something to consider:
The wrong mix of cichlids in the right sequence will sometimes work
better that the right mix of cichlids in the wrong sequence of
introduction. In other words, besides already having a huge in-species
variability due to personality, size and habits from origin, the problem
of compatibility is further exasperated (and that is the correct word) by
pecking order expectations (and the territorial pressures which result).
Re-arranging the terrain does not wipe their memory of each other.
Removing the fish are returning them to the problem tank will also
sometimes not work at all (they remember each other and the unresolved
positions of conflict that they are in), or if it works, it's temporary
until they fall back into a pattern.

Using the NetMax scale of aggression (which I am now making up), where
Melanochromis auratus are a nine (nasty) and Neons are a zero (buffet
foods):

-peacock: from 3 to 7, depending on tank-mates, alpha male. Generally
not overly territorial at lower levels, prefers open water at level of
confidence, and generally not requiring total dominance (dependant on
tank-mates of course).

-hornet (pseudotropheus crabro): from 6 to 8 Pseudostropheus in general
tend to be instigators, expending much energy on advancing up the pecking
order.

-mooris: 3 to 6, these fish really don't belong anywhere near
pseudotropheus other than in very large tanks. They are open water fish,
typically grazing sand bottoms, keeping outside of the range of the mbuna
chaos around the rocky waterline. With their size and open water
straight line mobility, they will escape some of the territorial
aggression, as they are more effort than might be worthwhile (while there
are closer targets) and they only defend themselves. It's a little like
keeping reindeer with wolves.

-johanni: 5 to 7, typically they tend to be mellow enough to experiment
with mixing and aggressive enough to hold their own except against more
fearless pseudotropheus, or other melachromis (ie: chipokae, auratus).

-pseudo est : (renamed Maylandia and then Metriclima es), this is
potentially (and typically) your bad boy, a 7 or 8.

-pseudo soc: 5 to 6, like the johanni in the melanochromis family,
socolofi does not share the same aggressive extremes as its
pseudotropheus cousins. Puts up a good 'show' but quickly drops down the
pecking order. High risk for extermination when mixed with more
aggressive pseudos, such as your Red Zebra (estherae).

Advice? Lose two species (ie: Zebras and Hornets) and add more fish (ie:
Labs & Powder Blues) ? I would normally add more peacocks, but you are
probably better off leaving the one Alpha to rule the noose. It's often
beneficial to find a benevolent ruler. Ironically Red Zebras sometimes
make very good benevolent rulers (after they have blazed a path through
the lesser fish ;~). hth
--
www.NetMax.tk

[Flash Wilson]

On Sat, 14 Jan 2006 12:08:19 -0500, NetMax > wrote:

*flash sighs in relief at the prospect of a full and useful answer
from Netmax - THANK YOU! :) *

>besides already having a huge in-species
>variability due to personality, size and habits from origin, the problem
>of compatibility is further exasperated (and that is the correct word) by
>pecking order expectations (and the territorial pressures which result).

Ok...

>Re-arranging the terrain does not wipe their memory of each other.

Right. Although, before I added the new fish, I had a lot of work
to do with the terrain to provide enough hiding places of different
sizes, but they are obviously quite capable of changing the terrain
themselves anyway, if the huge gravel pyramids are anything to go by.

>Removing the fish are returning them to the problem tank will also
>sometimes not work at all (they remember each other and the unresolved
>positions of conflict that they are in), or if it works, it's temporary
>until they fall back into a pattern.

Yep, I've got it to work with tiger barbs but not with anything else.

>Using the NetMax scale of aggression (which I am now making up)

:D

>-peacock: from 3 to 7, depending on tank-mates, alpha male. Generally
>not overly territorial at lower levels, prefers open water at level of
>confidence, and generally not requiring total dominance (dependant on
>tank-mates of course).

I would say mine is a 1. It's the biggest thing in the tank but as I
said, old and cranky. To be honest, when the tank was near-empty recently
he got sick, cloudy eye and panting. I left him to it, thinking it would
soon be time to consider euthanasia, but he recovered. This was several
weeks ago. He hides a lot, but comes out to eat. He keeps himself to
himself even though he could have the other guy's asses if he wanted.

I didn't mean to just have one, but he's still there, and he does no
harm (and doesn't suffer) so he can stay as long as he likes. Apart
from waste production I discount him to be honest.

>-hornet (pseudotropheus crabro): from 6 to 8 Pseudostropheus in general
>tend to be instigators, expending much energy on advancing up the pecking
>order.

The male is a bit pecky, the female more active but doesn't chase the
others. The other fish will swim out of their way but I've never seen
any problems from them. They have always ruled the tank and will continue
to do so, but they dont seem bothered by the other fish at all now they
have company.

>-mooris: 3 to 6, these fish really don't belong anywhere near
>pseudotropheus other than in very large tanks. They are open water fish,

Oh dear :( They are the ones that are smallest and seem happiest!
OOooops. They were the last in the store so came as a freebie, which
obviously I shouldn't have accepted! I'm trying to think what their
behaviour reminds me of... probably danios or something which is
fast, nimble and un bothered by the others. I thought they might be
dinner if anyone was, but they are fine!

>-johanni: 5 to 7, typically they tend to be mellow enough to experiment
>with mixing and aggressive enough to hold their own except against more
>fearless pseudotropheus, or other melachromis (ie: chipokae, auratus).

As you know from my "yellow cichlid ID" question, they weren't what
I thought I was getting. Oh well. They seem the shyest but are a great
shape for bending in and out of the rocks so they don't get bothered.

>-pseudo est : (renamed Maylandia and then Metriclima es), this is
>potentially (and typically) your bad boy, a 7 or 8.

Yet another fish that was mislabelled in the shop. And I noted the
names when I did my homework, rather than taking photos to double
check I WAS looking up the right thing. Oops.

They do seem to be the bad boys! They are picking on *each other*
mainly though - would it help to get more so the group is bigger, or
would that be a death knell for the others?

>-pseudo soc: 5 to 6, like the johanni in the melanochromis family,
>socolofi does not share the same aggressive extremes as its
>pseudotropheus cousins. Puts up a good 'show' but quickly drops down the
>pecking order.

That's exactly how they are behaving. Bother, I really really like
these. They are my favourites, so beautiful. They show much better
colour in my tank than they did in the shop. So it seems if I like
them, I have to restock and then condemn them to a life of being
chased. Ach. That's NOT good!

>Advice? Lose two species (ie: Zebras and Hornets) and add more fish (ie:
>Labs & Powder Blues) ?

Okeydoke... Hmm. I don't like labs really. My shop only does the electric
yellows! But now I know what they really look like, I'd kill for a whole
tank of powder blues! Ok...

(And I have to remember it's not down to what's "pretty" because an
empty tank with one fat fish is much less pretty than a well managed
tank of compromise fish!)

> I would normally add more peacocks, but you are
>probably better off leaving the one Alpha to rule the noose.

Especially as he is completely passive.

>Ironically Red Zebras sometimes
>make very good benevolent rulers (after they have blazed a path through
>the lesser fish ;~). hth

Does that mean I should let them work it out? Or give it a bit
longer to see if they do? I think it was them who picked on the
others, and now are picking on each other instead.

I still don't know what to do! But at least I have some ideas.

You said the mooriis don't belong... but you don't suggest returning
them, which surprises me. What's the reasoning?

Thank you so much for your long and helpful answer.
I feel so ashamed by my incompetence. I should have known going
from community tank to malawi would not be as easy as all that!
--
Flash Wilson - Web Design & Mastery - 0870 401 4061 / 07939 579090
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Work: www.wdam.co.uk Personal: www.gorge.org

[Gill Passman]

Flash Wilson wrote:
> On Sat, 14 Jan 2006 12:08:19 -0500, NetMax > wrote:
>
> *flash sighs in relief at the prospect of a full and useful answer
> from Netmax - THANK YOU! :) *
>
>
>>besides already having a huge in-species
>>variability due to personality, size and habits from origin, the problem
>>of compatibility is further exasperated (and that is the correct word) by
>>pecking order expectations (and the territorial pressures which result).
>
>
> Ok...
>
>
>>Re-arranging the terrain does not wipe their memory of each other.
>
>
> Right. Although, before I added the new fish, I had a lot of work
> to do with the terrain to provide enough hiding places of different
> sizes, but they are obviously quite capable of changing the terrain
> themselves anyway, if the huge gravel pyramids are anything to go by.
>
>
>>Removing the fish are returning them to the problem tank will also
>>sometimes not work at all (they remember each other and the unresolved
>>positions of conflict that they are in), or if it works, it's temporary
>>until they fall back into a pattern.
>
>
> Yep, I've got it to work with tiger barbs but not with anything else.
>
>
>>Using the NetMax scale of aggression (which I am now making up)
>
>
> :D
>
>
>>-peacock: from 3 to 7, depending on tank-mates, alpha male. Generally
>>not overly territorial at lower levels, prefers open water at level of
>>confidence, and generally not requiring total dominance (dependant on
>>tank-mates of course).
>
>
> I would say mine is a 1. It's the biggest thing in the tank but as I
> said, old and cranky. To be honest, when the tank was near-empty recently
> he got sick, cloudy eye and panting. I left him to it, thinking it would
> soon be time to consider euthanasia, but he recovered. This was several
> weeks ago. He hides a lot, but comes out to eat. He keeps himself to
> himself even though he could have the other guy's asses if he wanted.
>
> I didn't mean to just have one, but he's still there, and he does no
> harm (and doesn't suffer) so he can stay as long as he likes. Apart
> from waste production I discount him to be honest.
>
>
>>-hornet (pseudotropheus crabro): from 6 to 8 Pseudostropheus in general
>>tend to be instigators, expending much energy on advancing up the pecking
>>order.
>
>
> The male is a bit pecky, the female more active but doesn't chase the
> others. The other fish will swim out of their way but I've never seen
> any problems from them. They have always ruled the tank and will continue
> to do so, but they dont seem bothered by the other fish at all now they
> have company.
>
>
>>-mooris: 3 to 6, these fish really don't belong anywhere near
>>pseudotropheus other than in very large tanks. They are open water fish,
>
>
> Oh dear :( They are the ones that are smallest and seem happiest!
> OOooops. They were the last in the store so came as a freebie, which
> obviously I shouldn't have accepted! I'm trying to think what their
> behaviour reminds me of... probably danios or something which is
> fast, nimble and un bothered by the others. I thought they might be
> dinner if anyone was, but they are fine!
>
>
>>-johanni: 5 to 7, typically they tend to be mellow enough to experiment
>>with mixing and aggressive enough to hold their own except against more
>>fearless pseudotropheus, or other melachromis (ie: chipokae, auratus).
>
>
> As you know from my "yellow cichlid ID" question, they weren't what
> I thought I was getting. Oh well. They seem the shyest but are a great
> shape for bending in and out of the rocks so they don't get bothered.
>
>
>>-pseudo est : (renamed Maylandia and then Metriclima es), this is
>>potentially (and typically) your bad boy, a 7 or 8.
>
>
> Yet another fish that was mislabelled in the shop. And I noted the
> names when I did my homework, rather than taking photos to double
> check I WAS looking up the right thing. Oops.
>
> They do seem to be the bad boys! They are picking on *each other*
> mainly though - would it help to get more so the group is bigger, or
> would that be a death knell for the others?
>
>
>>-pseudo soc: 5 to 6, like the johanni in the melanochromis family,
>>socolofi does not share the same aggressive extremes as its
>>pseudotropheus cousins. Puts up a good 'show' but quickly drops down the
>>pecking order.
>
>
> That's exactly how they are behaving. Bother, I really really like
> these. They are my favourites, so beautiful. They show much better
> colour in my tank than they did in the shop. So it seems if I like
> them, I have to restock and then condemn them to a life of being
> chased. Ach. That's NOT good!
>
>
>>Advice? Lose two species (ie: Zebras and Hornets) and add more fish (ie:
>>Labs & Powder Blues) ?
>
>
> Okeydoke... Hmm. I don't like labs really. My shop only does the electric
> yellows! But now I know what they really look like, I'd kill for a whole
> tank of powder blues! Ok...
>
> (And I have to remember it's not down to what's "pretty" because an
> empty tank with one fat fish is much less pretty than a well managed
> tank of compromise fish!)
>
>
>>I would normally add more peacocks, but you are
>>probably better off leaving the one Alpha to rule the noose.
>
>
> Especially as he is completely passive.
>
>
>>Ironically Red Zebras sometimes
>>make very good benevolent rulers (after they have blazed a path through
>>the lesser fish ;~). hth
>
>
> Does that mean I should let them work it out? Or give it a bit
> longer to see if they do? I think it was them who picked on the
> others, and now are picking on each other instead.
>
> I still don't know what to do! But at least I have some ideas.
>
> You said the mooriis don't belong... but you don't suggest returning
> them, which surprises me. What's the reasoning?
>
> Thank you so much for your long and helpful answer.
> I feel so ashamed by my incompetence. I should have known going
> from community tank to malawi would not be as easy as all that!

I've had a Malawi tank for a year now. I totally agree with you on the
bad labelling but to give a little defence for LFS's the names do seem
to change quite frequently. After a year I'm still not sure of what fish
I actually have .

For the first 6 months of owning the tank there were casualties :-(
These were not usually the fish that I expected - generally they would
get picked on after "lights out". I lost two rustys this way but managed
to rescue the third. I also lost 2 Yellow Labs and one female Maylandia.
None of these fish were the most aggressive or seemed to pose any threat
to the status quo. I remember NetMax once describing this to me as these
fish getting "voted out" which pretty much sums it up.

A few months ago there was a change of "Alpha" - one male Maylandia
Lombardi took over from the other male - prior to this they seemed to
divide the tank in two for a while. I'm troubled by the quality of life
allowed to the ex-king. He spends most of the day hiding behind an
internal filter but comes out to feed eargerly and is always out and
about in the morning. I guess he takes advantage while the Alpha is
still sleepy. I think that I will catch him and try and trade him in but
the only thing that concerns me is whether he will end up worse off than
he is now. He is also now quite a large fish so I need to go out and get
a bigger net before I can do this. Another concern is that if the
"underdog" goes then the Alpha will shift his attention onto another
fish....

I've tried changing the terrain but this did not help with the
infighting. Right now they seem quite peaceful although the Alpha is
giving the female Maylandia a bit of grief (chasing her).

Another thing that I have noticed is that the females quite often end up
with chewed tails - they usually grow back. This seems to coincide with
mating as I usually notice the tails shortly before the fry appear.

As for stocking levels, I've found that mine are quite happily
overstocking the tank themselves, with the Melanchronis Cyaneorhabdos
(sold to me as Johanniis) being the most prolofic - the majority of fish
in the tank are now blue. There are very few Maylandia fry probably
because they are too busy infighting and also killed off one of their
females - there are some female fry growing out at the moment (and
another male).

So from my experience the Maylandia are the most aggressive. The Labs
and Haps have been the most placid. The Melanchronis are somewhere
inbetween.

I've never known exactly what the other two fish in the tank are. They
are certainly Haps. Initially I thought they were OB Peacocks but after
seeing an article in PFK I think that they might be Copadichromis
trewavasae. These two are the most peaceful of the fish in the tank.
Generally they keep to opposite sides of the tank. The only time I've
seen the male be aggressive towards the other fish is just before
mating. At this point he darkens in colour and gets a metallic blue
sheen to him and will chase anyone who crosses his path - sadly there
have been no surviving offspring yet.

The tank itself is full of caves. There is around 30Kilos of Ocean Rock
- full of little holes for the fry to hide in. It also makes very good
caves when piled up due to the irregular shape. The substrate is a mix
of coral sand and marine sand...I know exactly what you mean about the
sand mountains - lol. Everytime I put it even again (usually on each
water change) there is frantic activity from most of the fish to build
big mounds in the stuff.

IME the Malawis are the most aggressive fish that I have. But saying
that apart from the emotional side of seeing fish bullied (which I hate
when it happens) it is one of the more interesting tanks to watch from a
behaviour point of view. And of course, it is very colourful even though
it is now turning to almost exclusively blue fish because of the
Melanchronis. I've not added any fish since last March to the tank after
I finally finished setting it up - and that fish was a Plec.

Sorry for the ramble but I just thought I'd share my experiences

Gill

[NetMax]

"Flash Wilson" > wrote in message
...
> On Sat, 14 Jan 2006 12:08:19 -0500, NetMax >
> wrote:
>
> *flash sighs in relief at the prospect of a full and useful answer
> from Netmax - THANK YOU! :) *

I can promise you a 'full' response, though its usefullness will
certainly vary. The trouble is the variability of these fish, leading
hobbyists to have slightly to significantly different experiences with
them. Ironically (to your title of cannibals), the fish are probably
being killed off by the herbivores in the group ;~).

>>besides already having a huge in-species
>>variability due to personality, size and habits from origin, the
>>problem
>>of compatibility is further exasperated (and that is the correct word)
>>by
>>pecking order expectations (and the territorial pressures which
>>result).
>
> Ok...
>
>>Re-arranging the terrain does not wipe their memory of each other.
>
> Right. Although, before I added the new fish, I had a lot of work
> to do with the terrain to provide enough hiding places of different
> sizes, but they are obviously quite capable of changing the terrain
> themselves anyway, if the huge gravel pyramids are anything to go by.

Re-arranging terrain before adding fish is still a good idea, as it
resets the territorial rights, and in the chaos of having them
re-established, it allows the new fish to slip into the lower rungs of
the pecking order. The trouble is if you have a dominant fish intent on
killing a select group of others, then reseting the environment only
typically causes a delay in what would normally happen anyways.

>>Removing the fish are returning them to the problem tank will also
>>sometimes not work at all (they remember each other and the unresolved
>>positions of conflict that they are in), or if it works, it's temporary
>>until they fall back into a pattern.
>
> Yep, I've got it to work with tiger barbs but not with anything else.
>
>>Using the NetMax scale of aggression (which I am now making up)
>
> :D
>
>>-peacock: from 3 to 7, depending on tank-mates, alpha male. Generally
>>not overly territorial at lower levels, prefers open water at level of
>>confidence, and generally not requiring total dominance (dependant on
>>tank-mates of course).
>
> I would say mine is a 1. It's the biggest thing in the tank but as I
> said, old and cranky. To be honest, when the tank was near-empty
> recently
> he got sick, cloudy eye and panting. I left him to it, thinking it
> would
> soon be time to consider euthanasia, but he recovered. This was several
> weeks ago. He hides a lot, but comes out to eat. He keeps himself to
> himself even though he could have the other guy's asses if he wanted.
>
> I didn't mean to just have one, but he's still there, and he does no
> harm (and doesn't suffer) so he can stay as long as he likes. Apart
> from waste production I discount him to be honest.
>
>>-hornet (pseudotropheus crabro): from 6 to 8 Pseudostropheus in general
>>tend to be instigators, expending much energy on advancing up the
>>pecking
>>order.
>
> The male is a bit pecky, the female more active but doesn't chase the
> others. The other fish will swim out of their way but I've never seen
> any problems from them. They have always ruled the tank and will
> continue
> to do so, but they dont seem bothered by the other fish at all now they
> have company.

For the fish to keep clear of them, the crabro have established
themselves high up. The distance which the fish maintain between
themselves and the crabro's face is sometimes indicative of how much
abuse the crabro dishes out to maintain its status. If the crabro stops
in mid water and turns and a radius around him is suddenly clear of fish,
then there is some aggression going on, when they are not being observed.

Sometimes the alpha fish (of the tank) will allow species alphas to
exercise their rights on others (leading to lots of casualties). Other
times the tank alpha will not tolerate aggressive behaviour and will jump
between them to break up the fight. This is the benign 'ruler' you want.
I think a tank-alpha crabro would be more likely to allow the other fish
to fight it out and not get involved too much. A tank-alpha Zebra can go
either way. Sometimes they are so full of themselves, that no one is
allowed to fight, so he effectively becomes the cop keeping the peace
(when actually he probably just wants no changes in the pecking order
which might produce new challengers).

>>-mooris: 3 to 6, these fish really don't belong anywhere near
>>pseudotropheus other than in very large tanks. They are open water
>>fish,
>
> Oh dear :( They are the ones that are smallest and seem happiest!
> OOooops. They were the last in the store so came as a freebie, which
> obviously I shouldn't have accepted! I'm trying to think what their
> behaviour reminds me of... probably danios or something which is
> fast, nimble and un bothered by the others. I thought they might be
> dinner if anyone was, but they are fine!

Mooris are like puppy dogs. They will occasionally blunder where they
shouldn't be and get chased out. As long as there are other more serious
threats, no one will concentrate on them. In the benign ruler scenario,
they are relatively safe. In the absent ruler scenario (tank alpha lets
the tank run amok, occasionally beating the wits out of someone), their
safety depends on the instability of the pecking order (less stable =
safer for them). In the cruel ruler scenario (tank alpha wants everyone
out), then they suffer badly, being easy prey. Mooris will establish a
pecking order amongst themselves (bascially spawning rights) and will not
figure into the mbuna pecking order unless they live long enough to be
able to, and need to. In large tanks, they don't need to, and don't get
involved with the chaos below them, except when chasing food to the
bottom, and even then they will typically concede the rights to the more
aggressive mbuna.

>>-johanni: 5 to 7, typically they tend to be mellow enough to experiment
>>with mixing and aggressive enough to hold their own except against more
>>fearless pseudotropheus, or other melachromis (ie: chipokae, auratus).
>
> As you know from my "yellow cichlid ID" question, they weren't what
> I thought I was getting. Oh well. They seem the shyest but are a great
> shape for bending in and out of the rocks so they don't get bothered.

Johanni seem to be smart in this regard. With their smaller size, they
make themselves more trouble than it's worth to catch, and they don't
push for high rights in the pecking order, preferring a middle pole
position. They can be surprisingly effective at holding this mid-point
position (imo), so another fish being pushed down to just ahead of them
may find themselves behind them rather quickly.

>>-pseudo est : (renamed Maylandia and then Metriclima es), this is
>>potentially (and typically) your bad boy, a 7 or 8.
>
> Yet another fish that was mislabelled in the shop. And I noted the
> names when I did my homework, rather than taking photos to double
> check I WAS looking up the right thing. Oops.
>
> They do seem to be the bad boys! They are picking on *each other*
> mainly though - would it help to get more so the group is bigger, or
> would that be a death knell for the others?

I'm not overly fond of the Zebra group because they have even less
predictability than many of the others, alternating between being a
nuisance and being killers. A species tank of only Zebras would be an
excellent social experiment, but mixing them with other similar species
produces too much variability in results. Occasionally mbuna communities
call a truce, take a vote, and working with some degree of cooperation,
they will attack and kill a fish which would previously have been
observed to not have been involved in the day to day chaos of the
community. I see this happen much more often when there are Zebras or
Tropheus in the community. Adding more Zebras to tank where Zebras are a
problem, can go either way, but typically the new fish are fodder.

>>-pseudo soc: 5 to 6, like the johanni in the melanochromis family,
>>socolofi does not share the same aggressive extremes as its
>>pseudotropheus cousins. Puts up a good 'show' but quickly drops down
>>the
>>pecking order.
>
> That's exactly how they are behaving. Bother, I really really like
> these. They are my favourites, so beautiful. They show much better
> colour in my tank than they did in the shop. So it seems if I like
> them, I have to restock and then condemn them to a life of being
> chased. Ach. That's NOT good!
>
>>Advice? Lose two species (ie: Zebras and Hornets) and add more fish
>>(ie:
>>Labs & Powder Blues) ?
>
> Okeydoke... Hmm. I don't like labs really. My shop only does the
> electric
> yellows! But now I know what they really look like, I'd kill for a
> whole
> tank of powder blues! Ok...

Behaviourally, Labs are similar to your Blues and make an attractive
color contrast. Adding more Johanii works as well, but raises the tank
tension slightly higher (still much much lower than having Zebras and
Hornets in there).

> (And I have to remember it's not down to what's "pretty" because an
> empty tank with one fat fish is much less pretty than a well managed
> tank of compromise fish!)

Oscar owners would contest that ;~).

>> I would normally add more peacocks, but you are
>>probably better off leaving the one Alpha to rule the noose.
>
> Especially as he is completely passive.

Hmm, adding more Peacocks could have very mixed results, and would likely
increase the mid-water tension level which is not normally desirable but
can have good overall results. Definitely ymmv. It would start the
development of another more distinct pecking order (eventually as the
fish reached adulthood) bringing your passive Peacock into the fray.
Given the small size of the tank, I'd probably not recommend it.

>>Ironically Red Zebras sometimes
>>make very good benevolent rulers (after they have blazed a path through
>>the lesser fish ;~). hth
>
> Does that mean I should let them work it out? Or give it a bit
> longer to see if they do? I think it was them who picked on the
> others, and now are picking on each other instead.

The tank will stabilize, but the stock level when it does is not very
predictable. If you had an alpha Melanochromis auratus instead of a
Zebra problem, it would be much more predictable ;~). I suspect your
carnage has a way to go before it settles down. Your exact mixture of
fish could be living very harmoniously (relatively) if they were all
added at the same time as juveniles. Adding mbuna to a mbuna tank is
often opening pandora's box of trouble.

> I still don't know what to do! But at least I have some ideas.

Good, that's the best I could expect.

> You said the mooriis don't belong... but you don't suggest returning
> them, which surprises me. What's the reasoning?

Because I felt you were looking to tone down the aggression level, and
the Mooris contribute to a more passive environment (Johanii, Blues,
Peacock etc).

> Thank you so much for your long and helpful answer.
> I feel so ashamed by my incompetence. I should have known going
> from community tank to malawi would not be as easy as all that!

Success with 'extreme' fish like mbuna tends to more heavily favour
experience & luck, than research. Do note however that you're mixing
some herbivores with omnivores, so you're going to have to drop their
diet to the lowest common denominator (veggy diet), and just slip your
mooriis some bloodworms when no one else is looking ;~). Just mentioning
that as it might influence how you want to change the mix of fish around.

ps: As much as I can help, don't hesitate to ask :o)
--
www.NetMax.tk

> --
> Flash Wilson - Web Design & Mastery - 0870 401 4061 / 07939 579090
> -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
> Work: www.wdam.co.uk Personal: www.gorge.org

[Flash Wilson]

On Sat, 14 Jan 2006 16:23:25 -0500, NetMax > wrote:
>I can promise you a 'full' response, though its usefullness will
>certainly vary.

And I read it and was very grateful but somehow forgot to
respond. I'm sorry :(

A quick update - since I posted, things seem to have sorted themselves
out. The esterae with a badly nipped tail now seems to have been accepted,
and all the fish seem settled. So the problem has gone away again!

So I will reserve this thread until they get hungry again... ;)

--
Flash Wilson - Web Design & Mastery - 0870 401 4061 / 07939 579090
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Work: www.wdam.co.uk Personal: www.gorge.org