Black moor resting by heater

[cindys]

Hi! I'm relatively new to keeping an aquarium with fish, and here's my
question:

We have 2 black moor goldfish. One of them we had about a year in a 1-gallon
aquarium, and he did fine. A few weeks ago, we moved him to a 10-gallon
aquarium and added a second black moor. About a week ago, I noticed that the
original black moor seemed to be having trouble swimming against the current
of the filter. Upon closer inspection, I noticed that his tail seemed
frayed. I phoned the pet shop, and he was diagnosed with fin and tail rot
and I am now on day 3 of 5 of treating the aquarium with tetracycline
tablets. The sick fish seemed to be doing better as soon as I started
treatment but then I noticed he was in the corner by the heater, by the
surface of the water, not moving. I thought he was dead. But then, he began
to swim around, frisky as ever.

In the last 2 days, he seems to be spending an awful lot of time "resting"
in the corner by the heater, but then he periodically swims around and looks
as healthy and happy as ever. His tail seems to be regenerating (or am I
imagining that ?) and his eyes seem clearer (or am I imagining that too?). I
am inclined to believe if he were going to die, it would have happened by
now. He seems to be recuperating, so what is going on here? Is he staying by
the heater for warmth? Is he tired? I thought maybe he was having trouble
fighting the current being generated by the filter, but even when I turn off
the filter, he stays in the corner. The other fish is swimming around
normally.

Any thoughts on what is going on here?
Best regards,
---Cindy S.

[Koi-lo]

"cindys" > wrote in message
...
> Hi! I'm relatively new to keeping an aquarium with fish, and here's my
> question:
>
> We have 2 black moor goldfish. One of them we had about a year in a
> 1-gallon
> aquarium, and he did fine. A few weeks ago, we moved him to a 10-gallon
> aquarium and added a second black moor. About a week ago, I noticed that
> the
> original black moor seemed to be having trouble swimming against the
> current
> of the filter. Upon closer inspection, I noticed that his tail seemed
> frayed.

Is there an ammonia problem in this new setup? Have you checked for ammonia
and nitrites?

I phoned the pet shop, and he was diagnosed with fin and tail rot
> and I am now on day 3 of 5 of treating the aquarium with tetracycline
> tablets.

These will probably kill off your nitrifying bacteria. :-(

The sick fish seemed to be doing better as soon as I started
> treatment but then I noticed he was in the corner by the heater, by the
> surface of the water, not moving. I thought he was dead. But then, he
> began
> to swim around, frisky as ever.

Why are you heating the water for cold water fish? Goldfish don't need a
heater.

> In the last 2 days, he seems to be spending an awful lot of time "resting"
> in the corner by the heater, but then he periodically swims around and
> looks
> as healthy and happy as ever. His tail seems to be regenerating (or am I
> imagining that ?) and his eyes seem clearer (or am I imagining that too?).
> I
> am inclined to believe if he were going to die, it would have happened by
> now. He seems to be recuperating, so what is going on here?

Again, have you checked the ammonia and nitrite levels in this new set-up?
Are you doing weekly partial water changes? Did you quarantine the NEW fish
for at least 14 days before exposing him to your old fish?

Is he staying by
> the heater for warmth? Is he tired? I thought maybe he was having trouble
> fighting the current being generated by the filter,

How much current is this filter putting out? If it's annoying the fish you
need to slow it down or get another type or a smaller filter.

but even when I turn off
> the filter, he stays in the corner. The other fish is swimming around
> normally.
>
> Any thoughts on what is going on here?
> Best regards,

It doesn't sound too good. What was the PH in his old small tank and what
is the PH in this new tank? Could this be old tank syndrome?


--

Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
Aquariums since 1952
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
NEW PAGE: Aquariums:
http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastadaisy/Aquarium-Page4.html
http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastadaisy
~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>

[cindys]

"Koi-lo" > wrote in message
...
>
> "cindys" > wrote in message
> ...
> > Hi! I'm relatively new to keeping an aquarium with fish, and here's my
> > question:
> >
> > We have 2 black moor goldfish. One of them we had about a year in a
> > 1-gallon
> > aquarium, and he did fine. A few weeks ago, we moved him to a 10-gallon
> > aquarium and added a second black moor. About a week ago, I noticed that
> > the
> > original black moor seemed to be having trouble swimming against the
> > current
> > of the filter. Upon closer inspection, I noticed that his tail seemed
> > frayed.
>
> Is there an ammonia problem in this new setup? Have you checked for
ammonia
> and nitrites?

After doing some research after I posted, I'm wondering. We'll be checking
that as soon as we can get to the pet store tomorrow and whatever we need to
test the water.


>
> I phoned the pet shop, and he was diagnosed with fin and tail rot
> > and I am now on day 3 of 5 of treating the aquarium with tetracycline
> > tablets.
>
> These will probably kill off your nitrifying bacteria. :-(

Yup. Do you think the tablets were a mistake? We're total novices at this
(obviously). The one fish was fine in the 1 gallon tank for a year. We got a
tank that was presumably bigger, nicer, more sophisticated, and now this
happens... :-(

>
> The sick fish seemed to be doing better as soon as I started
> > treatment but then I noticed he was in the corner by the heater, by the
> > surface of the water, not moving. I thought he was dead. But then, he
> > began
> > to swim around, frisky as ever.
>
> Why are you heating the water for cold water fish? Goldfish don't need a
> heater.

I asked my husband if the temperature was set for goldfish (as opposed to
tropical fish). He insisted that it was. But thank you. I will turn off the
heater right away.

>
> > In the last 2 days, he seems to be spending an awful lot of time
"resting"
> > in the corner by the heater, but then he periodically swims around and
> > looks
> > as healthy and happy as ever. His tail seems to be regenerating (or am I
> > imagining that ?) and his eyes seem clearer (or am I imagining that
too?).
> > I
> > am inclined to believe if he were going to die, it would have happened
by
> > now. He seems to be recuperating, so what is going on here?
>
> Again, have you checked the ammonia and nitrite levels in this new set-up?

We'll do this as soon as we can get whatever we need to do this tomorrow at
the pet store.

> Are you doing weekly partial water changes?

With the old tank, my husband changed the water frequently. We haven't had
this tank very long (only a few weeks or a month), so my husband may not
have. Right now, the water is getting really disgusting from the
tetracycline tablets and leaving the filter off part of the time. I would
like to change the water (at least partially), but I'm afraid that the
removing some of the medicine along with the water (which is obviously
unavoidable) will make the situation worse.

>Did you quarantine the NEW fish
> for at least 14 days before exposing him to your old fish?

No. But I don't know if that would have made any difference in this case.
The new fish is doing fine.

>
> Is he staying by
> > the heater for warmth? Is he tired? I thought maybe he was having
trouble
> > fighting the current being generated by the filter,
>
> How much current is this filter putting out? If it's annoying the fish
you
> need to slow it down or get another type or a smaller filter.

Even when we turn off the filter, he hides by the heater.
Thank you so much for your advice. I will turn off the heater right away and
check for ammonia and nitrites first thing tomorrow. Another thing is that
we have several cats, and the aquarium is in the bathroom and one of the
litter boxes is also in the bathroom. Is it possible that some of the
ammonia from the litter box could be getting into the air and diffusing into
the aquarium water? This was never a problem with the old tank, but there
was less surface area. (Both tanks have been covered).
Again, thank you. I hope we can save the fish.
Best regards,
---Cindy S.

>
> but even when I turn off
> > the filter, he stays in the corner. The other fish is swimming around
> > normally.
> >
> > Any thoughts on what is going on here?
> > Best regards,
>
> It doesn't sound too good. What was the PH in his old small tank and what
> is the PH in this new tank? Could this be old tank syndrome?
>
>
> --
>
> Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
> Aquariums since 1952
> My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
> NEW PAGE: Aquariums:
> http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastadaisy/Aquarium-Page4.html
> http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastadaisy
> ~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>
>
>
>

[Squirrel]

On Sun, 15 Jan 2006 04:16:41 GMT, "cindys" >
wrote:

>
>"Koi-lo" > wrote in message
...
>>
>> "cindys" > wrote in message
>> ...
>> > Hi! I'm relatively new to keeping an aquarium with fish, and here's my
>> > question:
>> >
>> > We have 2 black moor goldfish. One of them we had about a year in a
>> > 1-gallon
>> > aquarium, and he did fine. A few weeks ago, we moved him to a 10-gallon
>> > aquarium and added a second black moor. About a week ago, I noticed that
>> > the
>> > original black moor seemed to be having trouble swimming against the
>> > current
>> > of the filter. Upon closer inspection, I noticed that his tail seemed
>> > frayed.
>>
>> Is there an ammonia problem in this new setup? Have you checked for
>ammonia
>> and nitrites?
>
>After doing some research after I posted, I'm wondering. We'll be checking
>that as soon as we can get to the pet store tomorrow and whatever we need to
>test the water.

Surely litmus would do the job??



>
>
>>
>> I phoned the pet shop, and he was diagnosed with fin and tail rot
>> > and I am now on day 3 of 5 of treating the aquarium with tetracycline
>> > tablets.
>>
>> These will probably kill off your nitrifying bacteria. :-(
>
>Yup. Do you think the tablets were a mistake? We're total novices at this
>(obviously). The one fish was fine in the 1 gallon tank for a year. We got a
>tank that was presumably bigger, nicer, more sophisticated, and now this
>happens... :-(
>
>>
>> The sick fish seemed to be doing better as soon as I started
>> > treatment but then I noticed he was in the corner by the heater, by the
>> > surface of the water, not moving. I thought he was dead. But then, he
>> > began
>> > to swim around, frisky as ever.
>>
>> Why are you heating the water for cold water fish? Goldfish don't need a
>> heater.
>
>I asked my husband if the temperature was set for goldfish (as opposed to
>tropical fish). He insisted that it was. But thank you. I will turn off the
>heater right away.
>
>>
>> > In the last 2 days, he seems to be spending an awful lot of time
>"resting"
>> > in the corner by the heater, but then he periodically swims around and
>> > looks
>> > as healthy and happy as ever. His tail seems to be regenerating (or am I
>> > imagining that ?) and his eyes seem clearer (or am I imagining that
>too?).
>> > I
>> > am inclined to believe if he were going to die, it would have happened
>by
>> > now. He seems to be recuperating, so what is going on here?
>>
>> Again, have you checked the ammonia and nitrite levels in this new set-up?
>
>We'll do this as soon as we can get whatever we need to do this tomorrow at
>the pet store.
>
>> Are you doing weekly partial water changes?
>
>With the old tank, my husband changed the water frequently. We haven't had
>this tank very long (only a few weeks or a month), so my husband may not
>have. Right now, the water is getting really disgusting from the
>tetracycline tablets and leaving the filter off part of the time. I would
>like to change the water (at least partially), but I'm afraid that the
>removing some of the medicine along with the water (which is obviously
>unavoidable) will make the situation worse.
>
>>Did you quarantine the NEW fish
>> for at least 14 days before exposing him to your old fish?
>
>No. But I don't know if that would have made any difference in this case.
>The new fish is doing fine.
>
>>
>> Is he staying by
>> > the heater for warmth? Is he tired? I thought maybe he was having
>trouble
>> > fighting the current being generated by the filter,
>>
>> How much current is this filter putting out? If it's annoying the fish
>you
>> need to slow it down or get another type or a smaller filter.
>
>Even when we turn off the filter, he hides by the heater.
>Thank you so much for your advice. I will turn off the heater right away and
>check for ammonia and nitrites first thing tomorrow. Another thing is that
>we have several cats, and the aquarium is in the bathroom and one of the
>litter boxes is also in the bathroom. Is it possible that some of the
>ammonia from the litter box could be getting into the air and diffusing into
>the aquarium water? This was never a problem with the old tank, but there
>was less surface area. (Both tanks have been covered).
>Again, thank you. I hope we can save the fish.
>Best regards,
>---Cindy S.
>
>>
>> but even when I turn off
>> > the filter, he stays in the corner. The other fish is swimming around
>> > normally.
>> >
>> > Any thoughts on what is going on here?
>> > Best regards,
>>
>> It doesn't sound too good. What was the PH in his old small tank and what
>> is the PH in this new tank? Could this be old tank syndrome?
>>
>>
>> --
>>
>> Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
>> Aquariums since 1952
>> My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
>> NEW PAGE: Aquariums:
>> http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastadaisy/Aquarium-Page4.html
>> http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastadaisy
>> ~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>
>>
>>
>>
>

[Koi-lo]

"cindys" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Koi-lo" > wrote in message
> ...
>>
>> "cindys" > wrote in message
>> ...
>> > Hi! I'm relatively new to keeping an aquarium with fish, and here's my
>> > question:
>> >
>> > We have 2 black moor goldfish. One of them we had about a year in a
>> > 1-gallon
>> > aquarium, and he did fine. A few weeks ago, we moved him to a 10-gallon
>> > aquarium and added a second black moor. About a week ago, I noticed
>> > that
>> > the
>> > original black moor seemed to be having trouble swimming against the
>> > current
>> > of the filter. Upon closer inspection, I noticed that his tail seemed
>> > frayed.
>>
>> Is there an ammonia problem in this new setup? Have you checked for
> ammonia
>> and nitrites?
>
> After doing some research after I posted, I'm wondering. We'll be checking
> that as soon as we can get to the pet store tomorrow and whatever we need
> to
> test the water.

At the least get a combo test usually using strips or individual tests for
ammonia, nitrite, PH and hardness.


>> I phoned the pet shop, and he was diagnosed with fin and tail rot
>> > and I am now on day 3 of 5 of treating the aquarium with tetracycline
>> > tablets.
>>
>> These will probably kill off your nitrifying bacteria. :-(

> Yup. Do you think the tablets were a mistake? We're total novices at this
> (obviously). The one fish was fine in the 1 gallon tank for a year. We got
> a
> tank that was presumably bigger, nicer, more sophisticated, and now this
> happens... :-(

Don't give up! Had you switched from the small tank to the larger one
correctly (but you didn't know) it probably would not have happened. You
can Google more information on how to set up new tanks, the nitrogen cycle
etc. than you can possibly read. :-) The water conditions were probably
very different in the old tank than in the new one. This is shocking to a
fish's system, then add some ammonia,..... and they become easy prey to
disease such as fin rots and funguses. Also, GF don't need heat. I can't
say of the tabs were a mistake since the fish is believed to suffer a
bacterial infection.

>> The sick fish seemed to be doing better as soon as I started
>> > treatment but then I noticed he was in the corner by the heater, by the
>> > surface of the water, not moving. I thought he was dead. But then, he
>> > began
>> > to swim around, frisky as ever.
>>
>> Why are you heating the water for cold water fish? Goldfish don't need a
>> heater.

> I asked my husband if the temperature was set for goldfish (as opposed to
> tropical fish). He insisted that it was. But thank you. I will turn off
> the
> heater right away.

You can remove it from the tank. I have goldfish outside here in zone 6 and
they live right through the winter in water that drops to 39F (sometimes
lower) at the bottom on the ponds and pools.

>> > In the last 2 days, he seems to be spending an awful lot of time
> "resting"
>> > in the corner by the heater, but then he periodically swims around and
>> > looks
>> > as healthy and happy as ever. His tail seems to be regenerating (or am
>> > I
>> > imagining that ?) and his eyes seem clearer (or am I imagining that
> too?).
>> > I
>> > am inclined to believe if he were going to die, it would have happened
> by
>> > now. He seems to be recuperating, so what is going on here?
>>
>> Again, have you checked the ammonia and nitrite levels in this new
>> set-up?
>
> We'll do this as soon as we can get whatever we need to do this tomorrow
> at
> the pet store.
>
>> Are you doing weekly partial water changes?

> With the old tank, my husband changed the water frequently. We haven't had
> this tank very long (only a few weeks or a month), so my husband may not
> have.

PARTIAL water changes are needed weekly, or daily if you have ammonia or
nitrites in the water. DO NOT DISTURB the gravel or filter when you do
these PARTIAL changes. The good bacteria are trying to establish themselves
and that would stop them or slow them down. Gravel is cleaned later with a
gravel vac.

Right now, the water is getting really disgusting from the
> tetracycline tablets and leaving the filter off part of the time. I would
> like to change the water (at least partially), but I'm afraid that the
> removing some of the medicine along with the water (which is obviously
> unavoidable) will make the situation worse.

I think the meds really screwed up your tank. They killed off the needed
good bacteria before your tank was even cycled. What a mess! :-( You can
start doing partial water changes twice a day to remove this mess.......

>>Did you quarantine the NEW fish
>> for at least 14 days before exposing him to your old fish?
>
> No. But I don't know if that would have made any difference in this case.
> The new fish is doing fine.

The new fish could be carrying any number of parasites or diseases. I
recently (to protect myself I wont mention the name of the chain store)
bought some fancy goldfish from a reputable place and they had COSTIA! They
sickened and had to be treated. A few didn't survive. The store replaced
them. Had they not been quarantined it could have spread to all my fish. A
real nightmare to contemplate. Just something to keep in mind as your fish
hobby grows.

>> Is he staying by
>> > the heater for warmth? Is he tired? I thought maybe he was having
> trouble
>> > fighting the current being generated by the filter,
>>
>> How much current is this filter putting out? If it's annoying the fish
> you
>> need to slow it down or get another type or a smaller filter.


> Even when we turn off the filter, he hides by the heater.

As I said it doesn't sound good. Between the medication and (I'm sure)
drastic water change he's not in good shape. I would start TONIGHT to do
some partial water changes to remove the meds and I'm sure ammonia and/or
nitrites building up in this tank.

> Thank you so much for your advice. I will turn off the heater right away
> and
> check for ammonia and nitrites first thing tomorrow. Another thing is that
> we have several cats, and the aquarium is in the bathroom and one of the
> litter boxes is also in the bathroom. Is it possible that some of the
> ammonia from the litter box could be getting into the air and diffusing
> into
> the aquarium water?

No. Don't worry about that happening.

This was never a problem with the old tank, but there
> was less surface area. (Both tanks have been covered).
> Again, thank you. I hope we can save the fish.
> Best regards,
> ---Cindy S.

Let me know what happens after you test the water tomorrow.
--

Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
Aquariums since 1952
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
NEW PAGE: Aquariums:
http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastadaisy/Aquarium-Page4.html
http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastadaisy
~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>

[Gail Futoran]

Hi Cindy S -

I'm not a goldfish expert but some of the
same principles apply to all hobby fish.
You mentioned turning the filter off. That's
not a good idea. The only thing you need to
do with a filter when using medications is
remove the carbon cartridge, which usually
isn't needed anyway.

You mentioned the tank being up only a
few weeks or a month. Partial water changes
need to be done weekly, especially with
"dirty" fish like goldfish.

There are a number of small (not expensive)
books on goldfish care, available at pet
stores and bookstores. If you don't already
have one, I'd suggest getting one or two. I'm
a big fan of reference books for hobbies.

I have cats and although litter boxes aren't in
the same room, there are five boxes scattered
about the house. I wouldn't worry if I were
you about the ammonia from litter boxes
ending up in your goldfish tank.

As a wild guess, I would suggest that putting
two goldfish together into water that probably
was not cycled first stressed out your fish. It
happened your original fish was more sensitive
since it had been alone in its own water for so
long (possible old tank syndrome, as others
mentioned), whereas the new fish had come from
a tank with a bunch of other fish.

When you test the water you want nitrAtes but
not nitrItes or ammonia. Nitrates should range
around 20, I think, for goldfish. (I try to keep it
at that level or lower for tropical fish.)

I hope your fish will be ok. Let us know
what happens.

Gail
in Texas

[cindys]

"Koi-lo" > wrote in message
...
>
> "cindys" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > "Koi-lo" > wrote in message
> > ...
> >>
> >> "cindys" > wrote in message
> >> ...
> >> > Hi! I'm relatively new to keeping an aquarium with fish, and here's
my
> >> > question:
> >> >
> >> > We have 2 black moor goldfish. One of them we had about a year in a
> >> > 1-gallon
> >> > aquarium, and he did fine. A few weeks ago, we moved him to a
10-gallon
> >> > aquarium and added a second black moor. About a week ago, I noticed
> >> > that
> >> > the
> >> > original black moor seemed to be having trouble swimming against the
> >> > current
> >> > of the filter. Upon closer inspection, I noticed that his tail seemed
> >> > frayed.
> >>
> >> Is there an ammonia problem in this new setup? Have you checked for
> > ammonia
> >> and nitrites?
> >
> > After doing some research after I posted, I'm wondering. We'll be
checking
> > that as soon as we can get to the pet store tomorrow and whatever we
need
> > to
> > test the water.
>
> At the least get a combo test usually using strips or individual tests for
> ammonia, nitrite, PH and hardness.

My husband is at the pet shop as I type this, buying the test kit.


>
>
> >> I phoned the pet shop, and he was diagnosed with fin and tail rot
> >> > and I am now on day 3 of 5 of treating the aquarium with tetracycline
> >> > tablets.
> >>
> >> These will probably kill off your nitrifying bacteria. :-(
>
> > Yup. Do you think the tablets were a mistake? We're total novices at
this
> > (obviously). The one fish was fine in the 1 gallon tank for a year. We
got
> > a
> > tank that was presumably bigger, nicer, more sophisticated, and now this
> > happens... :-(
>
> Don't give up!

I seem to have a big emotional investment in keeping that little fish alive.
We had to euthanize our nearly 15-year-old dog the day before Thanksgiving,
and my mother has developed some serious health problems. I know in the
grand scheme of things, this is "only a goldfish," but if this fish dies in
addition to these other things, I'll be really devastated.

>Had you switched from the small tank to the larger one
> correctly (but you didn't know) it probably would not have happened. You
> can Google more information on how to set up new tanks, the nitrogen cycle
> etc. than you can possibly read. :-) The water conditions were
probably
> very different in the old tank than in the new one. This is shocking to a
> fish's system, then add some ammonia,..... and they become easy prey to
> disease such as fin rots and funguses. Also, GF don't need heat. I
can't
> say of the tabs were a mistake since the fish is believed to suffer a
> bacterial infection.

With the last few hours, the fish has stopped hiding so much and is now
swimming face first downwards. My husband just phoned me on the cell phone.
The lady at the pet shop thinks he now has swim bladder problems. My husband
will be now purchasing the appropriate medication to treat that.
>
> >> The sick fish seemed to be doing better as soon as I started
> >> > treatment but then I noticed he was in the corner by the heater, by
the
> >> > surface of the water, not moving. I thought he was dead. But then, he
> >> > began
> >> > to swim around, frisky as ever.
> >>
> >> Why are you heating the water for cold water fish? Goldfish don't need
a
> >> heater.
>
> > I asked my husband if the temperature was set for goldfish (as opposed
to
> > tropical fish). He insisted that it was. But thank you. I will turn off
> > the
> > heater right away.
>
> You can remove it from the tank. I have goldfish outside here in zone 6
and
> they live right through the winter in water that drops to 39F (sometimes
> lower) at the bottom on the ponds and pools.

The heater is now history.


> >
> >> Are you doing weekly partial water changes?

We will start.
>
> > With the old tank, my husband changed the water frequently. We haven't
had
> > this tank very long (only a few weeks or a month), so my husband may not
> > have.
>
> PARTIAL water changes are needed weekly, or daily if you have ammonia or
> nitrites in the water. DO NOT DISTURB the gravel or filter when you do
> these PARTIAL changes. The good bacteria are trying to establish
themselves
> and that would stop them or slow them down. Gravel is cleaned later with
a
> gravel vac.

Thank you.
>
> Right now, the water is getting really disgusting from the
> > tetracycline tablets and leaving the filter off part of the time. I
would
> > like to change the water (at least partially), but I'm afraid that the
> > removing some of the medicine along with the water (which is obviously
> > unavoidable) will make the situation worse.
>
> I think the meds really screwed up your tank. They killed off the needed
> good bacteria before your tank was even cycled. What a mess! :-( You
can
> start doing partial water changes twice a day to remove this mess.......

But today was only day 4 of 5 of the medication. Is it safe to stop using
the tetracycline?
>
> >>Did you quarantine the NEW fish
> >> for at least 14 days before exposing him to your old fish?
> >
> > No. But I don't know if that would have made any difference in this
case.
> > The new fish is doing fine.
>
> The new fish could be carrying any number of parasites or diseases. I
> recently (to protect myself I wont mention the name of the chain store)
> bought some fancy goldfish from a reputable place and they had COSTIA!
They
> sickened and had to be treated. A few didn't survive. The store replaced
> them. Had they not been quarantined it could have spread to all my fish.
A
> real nightmare to contemplate. Just something to keep in mind as your
fish
> hobby grows.

I will not make this mistake again.
>
> >> Is he staying by
> >> > the heater for warmth? Is he tired? I thought maybe he was having
> > trouble
> >> > fighting the current being generated by the filter,
> >>
> >> How much current is this filter putting out? If it's annoying the fish
> > you
> >> need to slow it down or get another type or a smaller filter.
>
>
> > Even when we turn off the filter, he hides by the heater.
>
> As I said it doesn't sound good. Between the medication and (I'm sure)
> drastic water change he's not in good shape. I would start TONIGHT to do
> some partial water changes to remove the meds and I'm sure ammonia and/or
> nitrites building up in this tank.

We initiated the water changes this morning.
>
> Let me know what happens after you test the water tomorrow.

Yes, I will, and thank you so much for your support.
Best regards,
---Cindy S.

[[email protected]]

http://weloveteaching.com/puregold/
new fish bring in disease. the old fish get sick and/or die, the new fish do fine.
that is why quarantine is necessary.

it is best when moving fish to a new tank to move the entire filtering system over to
the new tank, otherwise, the cycle starts from new.
http://weloveteaching.com/puregold/care/care1.htm#essentials
Check water parameters including ammonia, nitrites, nitrates, pH and temperature and
change water to keep ammonia, nitrites barely detectable and nitrates at or below 20
ppm.

the tetracycline may or may not be working, but "fin rot" rarely starts out as
bacterial it is almost always parasites and toxic water quality that takes the immune
system down.

heat is often used to clear up bacterial infection. do you have a little salt in the
tank? Add 1 teaspoon of salt per 5 gallons. This can be increased to 3 teas. per 5
over a few days. Use rock salt with no additives.

heat around 75oF is optimal for GF, they are not coldwater fish. it is more
important to keep the temperature steady and frankly, you need a minimum of 20
gallons for 2 fish. Ingrid


"cindys" > wrote:
>We have 2 black moor goldfish. One of them we had about a year in a 1-gallon
>aquarium, and he did fine. A few weeks ago, we moved him to a 10-gallon
>aquarium and added a second black moor.



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List at
http://weloveteaching.com/puregold/
sign up: http://groups.google.com/groups/dir?hl=en&q=puregold&qt_s=Group+lookup
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for
any of the recommendations I make.
AND I DID NOT AUTHORIZE ADS AT THE OLD PUREGOLD SITE

[cindys]

> wrote in message
...
> http://weloveteaching.com/puregold/
> new fish bring in disease. the old fish get sick and/or die, the new fish
do fine.
> that is why quarantine is necessary.
>
> it is best when moving fish to a new tank to move the entire filtering
system over to
> the new tank, otherwise, the cycle starts from new.
> http://weloveteaching.com/puregold/care/care1.htm#essentials
> Check water parameters including ammonia, nitrites, nitrates, pH and
temperature and
> change water to keep ammonia, nitrites barely detectable and nitrates at
or below 20
> ppm.

This has now been checked out, and the water parameters are fine (big sigh
of relief).
>
> the tetracycline may or may not be working, but "fin rot" rarely starts
out as
> bacterial it is almost always parasites and toxic water quality that takes
the immune
> system down.
>
> heat is often used to clear up bacterial infection. do you have a little
salt in the
> tank? Add 1 teaspoon of salt per 5 gallons. This can be increased to 3
teas. per 5
> over a few days. Use rock salt with no additives.

What is the purpose of the salt?
>
> heat around 75oF is optimal for GF, they are not coldwater fish. it is
more
> important to keep the temperature steady and frankly, you need a minimum
of 20
> gallons for 2 fish. Ingrid

Unfortunately, we already have the second fish, and I don't think my husband
will agree to purchasing yet another tank :-(
Thank you for your advice.
Best regards,
---Cindy S.
>
>
> "cindys" > wrote:
> >We have 2 black moor goldfish. One of them we had about a year in a
1-gallon
> >aquarium, and he did fine. A few weeks ago, we moved him to a 10-gallon
> >aquarium and added a second black moor.
>
>
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List at
> http://weloveteaching.com/puregold/
> sign up:
http://groups.google.com/groups/dir?hl=en&q=puregold&qt_s=Group+lookup
> www.drsolo.com
> Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
> compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for
> any of the recommendations I make.
> AND I DID NOT AUTHORIZE ADS AT THE OLD PUREGOLD SITE

[cindys]

"Gail Futoran" > wrote in message
...
> Hi Cindy S -
>
> I'm not a goldfish expert but some of the
> same principles apply to all hobby fish.
> You mentioned turning the filter off. That's
> not a good idea. The only thing you need to
> do with a filter when using medications is
> remove the carbon cartridge, which usually
> isn't needed anyway.

Done.
>
> You mentioned the tank being up only a
> few weeks or a month. Partial water changes
> need to be done weekly, especially with
> "dirty" fish like goldfish.

Okay. We've done a partial water change today.
>
> There are a number of small (not expensive)
> books on goldfish care, available at pet
> stores and bookstores. If you don't already
> have one, I'd suggest getting one or two. I'm
> a big fan of reference books for hobbies.

Got it!
>
> I have cats and although litter boxes aren't in
> the same room, there are five boxes scattered
> about the house. I wouldn't worry if I were
> you about the ammonia from litter boxes
> ending up in your goldfish tank.

Okay.
>
> As a wild guess, I would suggest that putting
> two goldfish together into water that probably
> was not cycled first stressed out your fish. It
> happened your original fish was more sensitive
> since it had been alone in its own water for so
> long (possible old tank syndrome, as others
> mentioned), whereas the new fish had come from
> a tank with a bunch of other fish.
>
> When you test the water you want nitrAtes but
> not nitrItes or ammonia. Nitrates should range
> around 20, I think, for goldfish. (I try to keep it
> at that level or lower for tropical fish.)
>
> I hope your fish will be ok. Let us know
> what happens.
>
The water quality has now been tested, and it turned out to be fine. Now,
the woman at the pet shop has diagnosed a swim bladder problem. She advised
my husband to feed the fish the inside of a pea (they were all out of the
medication), saying it's not a magic cure-all, but it should make a big
difference. Would you agree with that?

My husband came home with $40 worth of stuff (the water test kit, new
filters, and the goldfish book), all in the hopes of saving the life of this
tiny little goldfish. I just hope we can save him. Thank you for you advice.
Best regards,
---Cindy S.

[cindys]

"Squirrel" > wrote in message
...
> On Sun, 15 Jan 2006 04:16:41 GMT, "cindys" >
> wrote:
>
> >
> >"Koi-lo" > wrote in message
> ...
> >>
> >> "cindys" > wrote in message
> >> ...
> >> > Hi! I'm relatively new to keeping an aquarium with fish, and here's
my
> >> > question:
> >> >
> >> > We have 2 black moor goldfish. One of them we had about a year in a
> >> > 1-gallon
> >> > aquarium, and he did fine. A few weeks ago, we moved him to a
10-gallon
> >> > aquarium and added a second black moor. About a week ago, I noticed
that
> >> > the
> >> > original black moor seemed to be having trouble swimming against the
> >> > current
> >> > of the filter. Upon closer inspection, I noticed that his tail seemed
> >> > frayed.
> >>
> >> Is there an ammonia problem in this new setup? Have you checked for
> >ammonia
> >> and nitrites?

We did today, and it's fine.
> >
> >After doing some research after I posted, I'm wondering. We'll be
checking
> >that as soon as we can get to the pet store tomorrow and whatever we need
to
> >test the water.
>
> Surely litmus would do the job??
>
We did get the kit.
Thanks for you advice.
Best regards,
---Cindy S.

[Koi-lo]

"cindys" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Koi-lo" > wrote in message
>> Don't give up!

Brevity snips.......

> I seem to have a big emotional investment in keeping that little fish
> alive.
> We had to euthanize our nearly 15-year-old dog the day before
> Thanksgiving,
> and my mother has developed some serious health problems. I know in the
> grand scheme of things, this is "only a goldfish," but if this fish dies
> in
> addition to these other things, I'll be really devastated.

I'm so sorry to hear about the death of your dog and your mother's ill
health. But do keep in mind that sometimes fish die no matter what we do.
And they sometimes die for no apparent reason we can see or find. I just
had a real cute orange and white telescope eye goldfish stop eating, isolate
itself, then in less than 48 hours it died. This was in a well established
55g tank. There were no parasites, fin rots or any evidence of injury or
disease.

I
> can't
>> say of the tabs were a mistake since the fish is believed to suffer a
>> bacterial infection.

> With the last few hours, the fish has stopped hiding so much and is now
> swimming face first downwards. My husband just phoned me on the cell
> phone.
> The lady at the pet shop thinks he now has swim bladder problems. My
> husband
> will be now purchasing the appropriate medication to treat that.

There is no medication to treat that, if it is indeed swim-bladder disease.
It looks like that shop will keep selling you meds and taking your
money.......

> The heater is now history.

I going to guess it was the same clueless person who sold you the meds that
also sold you a heater for GF. Please do not ask the people who work in
these stores for information. You will do better asking HERE or searching
the web for information.

>> I think the meds really screwed up your tank. They killed off the needed
>> good bacteria before your tank was even cycled. What a mess! :-( You
> can
>> start doing partial water changes twice a day to remove this mess.......

> But today was only day 4 of 5 of the medication. Is it safe to stop using
> the tetracycline?

Google some of these common antibiotics and you will see that most are now
useless from overmedication for years and years. Unfortunately they can and
sometimes do work all to well to kill what we don't want them to kill. Go
ahead and use it another day, then start your water changes.

Had they not been quarantined it could have spread to all my fish.
> A
>> real nightmare to contemplate. Just something to keep in mind as your
> fish
>> hobby grows.

> I will not make this mistake again.

The new fish may be immune to the "problem" your old fish has, after all
your old fish had no exposure to other fish and fish diseases. He was a
prime target with a weak immune system. Always quarantine new fish and as
a precaution treat them all with something like Quick-Cure or Aquara-Sol.
Parasites are very common in the store systems. Not because no one cares
but because the turnover is so great at the shops and wholesalers. New
parasites come in constantly. As far as I'm concerned *all* the fish I buy
have parasites.

>> Let me know what happens after you test the water tomorrow.
>
> Yes, I will, and thank you so much for your support.
> Best regards,
> ---Cindy S.

--
Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
Aquariums since 1952
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
NEW PAGE: Aquariums:
http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastadaisy/Aquarium-Page4.html
http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastadaisy
~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>

[Koi-lo]

"cindys" > wrote in message
...
> Unfortunately, we already have the second fish, and I don't think my
> husband
> will agree to purchasing yet another tank :-(
> Thank you for your advice.
> Best regards,
============================
While the GF are small the 10g tank will be ok (for awhile) with constant
partial water changes and good filtration. But GF get large if healthy and
well fed, in which case they will outgrow the 10g tank. They will lack the
room to do normal GF things and be much like two prisoners in a jail cell.
You may want to tell your husband that a larger tank may be needed down the
road........

I keep my indoor GF at room temperature. The outdoor goldfish are active
from the time the water temperature reaches 50F and they breed when it
reaches around 58 - 60F. That varies too! The temperature fluctuation in
the outdoor pools doesn't harm them nor do they show stress when it varies
indoors. Just never *drop* a fish in water that's more than a few degrees
colder or warmer than they're in.
--

Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
Aquariums since 1952
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
NEW PAGE: Aquariums:
http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastadaisy/Aquarium-Page4.html
http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastadaisy
~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>

[cindys]

"Koi-lo" > wrote in message
...
>
> "cindys" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > "Koi-lo" > wrote in message
> >> Don't give up!
>
> Brevity snips.......
>
> > I seem to have a big emotional investment in keeping that little fish
> > alive.
> > We had to euthanize our nearly 15-year-old dog the day before
> > Thanksgiving,
> > and my mother has developed some serious health problems. I know in the
> > grand scheme of things, this is "only a goldfish," but if this fish dies
> > in
> > addition to these other things, I'll be really devastated.
>
> I'm so sorry to hear about the death of your dog and your mother's ill
> health. But do keep in mind that sometimes fish die no matter what we do.
> And they sometimes die for no apparent reason we can see or find. I just
> had a real cute orange and white telescope eye goldfish stop eating,
isolate
> itself, then in less than 48 hours it died. This was in a well
established
> 55g tank. There were no parasites, fin rots or any evidence of injury or
> disease.

I'm sorry to hear that.

>
> There is no medication to treat that, if it is indeed swim-bladder
disease.
> It looks like that shop will keep selling you meds and taking your
> money.......

I tried feeding the fish the inside of a pea. He was trying to eat it, but
it's not clear if he succeeded or not.
>
> > The heater is now history.
>
> I going to guess it was the same clueless person who sold you the meds
that
> also sold you a heater for GF. Please do not ask the people who work in
> these stores for information. You will do better asking HERE or searching
> the web for information.

I agree. And on that note...After reading the goldfish book, my husband and
I have concluded that we need to set up a hospital tank. We don't want to
make any mistakes. We brought out the old 1-gallon aquarium (where the
little fish lived happily for the past year). All that year, my husband had
been using tap water. Now, I see from my reading that we weren't supposed
to be doing that but that if we let the tap water sit for 24 hours, the
chlorine will dissipate into the air. Is that correct? Or should I go to the
store and buy tablets to eliminate the chlorine? Or should I buy a Brita
water filter? Or should I use bottled water? I'm just thinking to myself
that the bottled water may have a different mineral balance... After the
water in the 1-gallon tank has been sitting for 24 hours, I will want to
transfer the fish back to the old tank. But I know better than to just dump
him in. How shall I do this? Shall I remove some of the (disgusting) water
from the new aquarium to go with him? Shall I put him in a plastic bag
filled with water and let him reacclimate to the temperature in the old
tank? (Both tanks are now at the same temperature actually - room
temperature). Shall I put gravel on the bottom of the 1-gallon tank? Shall I
put salt? (I know I'm not supposed to feed the fish for 4 days).

Please tell me how to do this. The fish is sitting in the corner of the
tank, more miserable than ever, but he is still alive.
Thank you again (everyone) for all your help.
Best regards,
---Cindy S.

[[email protected]]

clean fresh water is EVERYTHING to any fish. GF are dirty fish and need MORE water
than other fish. a hospital or quarantine tanks should be 40 gallon rubbermaid tub
rather than a 1 gallon tank. when a fish is sick it is MOSTLY fresh water that helps
the fish recover. in fact, the tub to tub method is excellent for this.
http://weloveteaching.com/puregold/disease/treatment/trtmnt.htm#TUB_TO_TUB

aerating water with chlorine MAY do the trick, but if you have chloramine, it wont.
use dechlor.

be sure to match the temperature of the new water to the old water.. sudden colder
water can make the fish sick.. often with ich. so if the temperature is the same,
just move the fish over. read the section on uses of salt.
http://weloveteaching.com/puregold/disease/treatment/trtmnt.htm#salt

most people overfeed GF. they dont eat a lot per day. you need the highest quality
food you can find, the kind with little to no "grains".. no corn, no wheat. Ingrid

"cindys" > wrote:
>I agree. And on that note...After reading the goldfish book, my husband and
>I have concluded that we need to set up a hospital tank.
We brought out the old 1-gallon aquarium (where the
>little fish lived happily for the past year). All that year, my husband had
>been using tap water. Now, I see from my reading that we weren't supposed
>to be doing that but that if we let the tap water sit for 24 hours, the
>chlorine will dissipate into the air. Is that correct? Or should I go to the
>store and buy tablets to eliminate the chlorine? Or should I buy a Brita
>water filter? Or should I use bottled water? I'm just thinking to myself
>that the bottled water may have a different mineral balance... After the
>water in the 1-gallon tank has been sitting for 24 hours, I will want to
>transfer the fish back to the old tank. But I know better than to just dump
>him in. How shall I do this? Shall I remove some of the (disgusting) water
>from the new aquarium to go with him? Shall I put him in a plastic bag
>filled with water and let him reacclimate to the temperature in the old
>tank? (Both tanks are now at the same temperature actually - room
>temperature). Shall I put gravel on the bottom of the 1-gallon tank? Shall I
>put salt? (I know I'm not supposed to feed the fish for 4 days).
>
>Please tell me how to do this. The fish is sitting in the corner of the
>tank, more miserable than ever, but he is still alive.
>Thank you again (everyone) for all your help.
>Best regards,
>---Cindy S.
>
>
>



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List at
http://weloveteaching.com/puregold/
sign up: http://groups.google.com/groups/dir?hl=en&q=puregold&qt_s=Group+lookup
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for
any of the recommendations I make.
AND I DID NOT AUTHORIZE ADS AT THE OLD PUREGOLD SITE

[cindys]

Thank you.
Best regards,
Cynthia.


> wrote in message
...
> clean fresh water is EVERYTHING to any fish. GF are dirty fish and need
MORE water
> than other fish. a hospital or quarantine tanks should be 40 gallon
rubbermaid tub
> rather than a 1 gallon tank. when a fish is sick it is MOSTLY fresh water
that helps
> the fish recover. in fact, the tub to tub method is excellent for this.
> http://weloveteaching.com/puregold/disease/treatment/trtmnt.htm#TUB_TO_TUB
>
> aerating water with chlorine MAY do the trick, but if you have chloramine,
it wont.
> use dechlor.
>
> be sure to match the temperature of the new water to the old water..
sudden colder
> water can make the fish sick.. often with ich. so if the temperature is
the same,
> just move the fish over. read the section on uses of salt.
> http://weloveteaching.com/puregold/disease/treatment/trtmnt.htm#salt
>
> most people overfeed GF. they dont eat a lot per day. you need the
highest quality
> food you can find, the kind with little to no "grains".. no corn, no
wheat. Ingrid
>
> "cindys" > wrote:
> >I agree. And on that note...After reading the goldfish book, my husband
and
> >I have concluded that we need to set up a hospital tank.
> We brought out the old 1-gallon aquarium (where the
> >little fish lived happily for the past year). All that year, my husband
had
> >been using tap water. Now, I see from my reading that we weren't
supposed
> >to be doing that but that if we let the tap water sit for 24 hours, the
> >chlorine will dissipate into the air. Is that correct? Or should I go to
the
> >store and buy tablets to eliminate the chlorine? Or should I buy a Brita
> >water filter? Or should I use bottled water? I'm just thinking to myself
> >that the bottled water may have a different mineral balance... After the
> >water in the 1-gallon tank has been sitting for 24 hours, I will want to
> >transfer the fish back to the old tank. But I know better than to just
dump
> >him in. How shall I do this? Shall I remove some of the (disgusting)
water
> >from the new aquarium to go with him? Shall I put him in a plastic bag
> >filled with water and let him reacclimate to the temperature in the old
> >tank? (Both tanks are now at the same temperature actually - room
> >temperature). Shall I put gravel on the bottom of the 1-gallon tank?
Shall I
> >put salt? (I know I'm not supposed to feed the fish for 4 days).
> >
> >Please tell me how to do this. The fish is sitting in the corner of the
> >tank, more miserable than ever, but he is still alive.
> >Thank you again (everyone) for all your help.
> >Best regards,
> >---Cindy S.
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List at
> http://weloveteaching.com/puregold/
> sign up:
http://groups.google.com/groups/dir?hl=en&q=puregold&qt_s=Group+lookup
> www.drsolo.com
> Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
> compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for
> any of the recommendations I make.
> AND I DID NOT AUTHORIZE ADS AT THE OLD PUREGOLD SITE

[Gail Futoran]

"cindys" > wrote in message
...
>
[snip]
> The water quality has now been tested, and it turned out to be fine.

Great!

Now,
> the woman at the pet shop has diagnosed a swim bladder problem. She
> advised
> my husband to feed the fish the inside of a pea (they were all out of the
> medication), saying it's not a magic cure-all, but it should make a big
> difference. Would you agree with that?

I've seen that advice before. I don't think it will
hurt at all. Goldfish like a little greenery anyway.
The pea(s) also help digestion. At this point I
think the less you do (in terms of medication) the
better. Just clean the water (as others have
suggested), make sure the good bio-bugs are
active (will be indicated by the presence of nitrAtes
and zero nitrItes or ammonia).

> My husband came home with $40 worth of stuff (the water test kit, new
> filters, and the goldfish book), all in the hopes of saving the life of
> this
> tiny little goldfish. I just hope we can save him. Thank you for you
> advice.
> Best regards,

> ---Cindy S.

Best of luck. I know what you're feeling. About
6 years ago I had a female Cory cat about 7 years
old (one of my first fish) that started acting weirdly.
In trying to heal her I learned SO MUCH about
hobby fish that I hadn't known before. Now instead
of one lonely 10 gallon with fish barely surviving my
benign neglect, I have three 20 gallon tanks, one 30
gallon, assorted smaller tanks (for hospital or
quarantine purposes) and all are heavily planted
and very healthy. (I didn't mention the three ponds
outside, did I? <g>) Much money and much
experimentation followed that little Cory cat and
I don't regret a penny of it. That's the nature of
the hobby. :)

Gail

[Gail Futoran]

"cindys" > wrote in message
...

Just to reiterate what Ingrid said, pre-treating tap
water is essential. Several products remove
chlorine as well as chloramine. If you don't know
which your municipal water system uses, it doesn't
hurt to treat tap water for both (chloramines don't
dissipate over time like chlorine). I use Prime by
Seacham. An excellent product if you can find it.
Most pet stores should carry it. The treated
replacement water can be used right away or stored
for later use.

Don't bother with filtered or bottled water. It's
an added expense that shouldn't be necessary.

[snip]
> water filter? Or should I use bottled water? I'm just thinking to myself
> that the bottled water may have a different mineral balance...

Yep. But you're not changing out all that much
water. It's not like you're doing a 100% water
change. 20% weekly should be sufficient.

After the
> water in the 1-gallon tank has been sitting for 24 hours, I will want to
> transfer the fish back to the old tank. But I know better than to just
> dump
> him in. How shall I do this? Shall I remove some of the (disgusting) water
> from the new aquarium to go with him?

If you've matched the parameters fairly closely
(pH, nitrates, etc.) there shouldn't be a problem.
However ...

Shall I put him in a plastic bag
> filled with water and let him reacclimate to the temperature in the old
> tank?

It depends on how different the two water
sources are. If not that different, you might
just try adding a bit of StressCoat, which
I usually do anyway with a partial water
change except in heavily planted tanks.

(Both tanks are now at the same temperature actually - room
> temperature). Shall I put gravel on the bottom of the 1-gallon tank?

Gravel not needed and probably more trouble
than it's worth in a goldfish tank.

Shall I
> put salt? (I know I'm not supposed to feed the fish for 4 days).

A little aquarium salt (read package for amount)
probably wouldn't hurt.

> Please tell me how to do this. The fish is sitting in the corner of the
> tank, more miserable than ever, but he is still alive.
> Thank you again (everyone) for all your help.
> Best regards,
> ---Cindy S.

Don't try to be too exact about matching parameters.
Fish generally are pretty tough, and unless you're
moving them into really different water parameters,
they'll probably be ok.

Hang in there. You're doing the best thing you
can, seeking information.

Good luck - Gail

[Koi-lo]

"cindys" > wrote in message
...
>> There is no medication to treat that, if it is indeed swim-bladder
> disease.
>> It looks like that shop will keep selling you meds and taking your
>> money.......
>
> I tried feeding the fish the inside of a pea. He was trying to eat it, but
> it's not clear if he succeeded or not.

I've not had luck with the pea method. I've had GF seem to improve with
swim-bladder but they always died in the end. In fact most of them wouldn't
eat the peas. It's like oranges now. Some GF love oranges and others wont
touch them.

You will do better asking HERE or searching
>> the web for information.

> I agree. And on that note...After reading the goldfish book, my husband
> and
> I have concluded that we need to set up a hospital tank. We don't want to
> make any mistakes. We brought out the old 1-gallon aquarium (where the
> little fish lived happily for the past year). All that year, my husband
> had
> been using tap water.

Do you have well water or water from a water company? If it contains
chlorine you fish could have been poisoned. Our water must sit for 24
hours, be aerated vigorously for 10 to 15 minutes or so, or treated with a
dechlor product. We now buy Sodium thiosulfate crystals in the 10lb size
bucket and make our own dechlor.

Now, I see from my reading that we weren't supposed
> to be doing that but that if we let the tap water sit for 24 hours, the
> chlorine will dissipate into the air. Is that correct?

Yes, unless it contains chlorimines. As your water company.

Or should I go to the
> store and buy tablets to eliminate the chlorine? Or should I buy a Brita
> water filter? Or should I use bottled water?

Buy something that removes chlorine and chloromines (sp?).

I'm just thinking to myself
> that the bottled water may have a different mineral balance... After the
> water in the 1-gallon tank has been sitting for 24 hours, I will want to
> transfer the fish back to the old tank. But I know better than to just
> dump
> him in. How shall I do this? Shall I remove some of the (disgusting) water
> from the new aquarium to go with him? Shall I put him in a plastic bag
> filled with water and let him reacclimate to the temperature in the old
> tank? (Both tanks are now at the same temperature actually - room
> temperature).

In my opinion that would be MORE stress. Why not start doing partial water
changes on the tank he's in now? Whatever he was exposed to he already
caught.

But I know better than to just dump
> him in. How shall I do this? Shall I remove some of the (disgusting) water
> from the new aquarium to go with him?

I wouldn't move him. Start the partial water changes. What he needs now is
CLEAN WATER.

Shall I put him in a plastic bag
> filled with water and let him reacclimate to the temperature in the old
> tank? (Both tanks are now at the same temperature actually - room
> temperature). Shall I put gravel on the bottom of the 1-gallon tank? Shall
> I
> put salt? (I know I'm not supposed to feed the fish for 4 days).

That will not cure swim-bladder problems. All it does is put a Band-Aid on
a skin cancer. The problem is STILL there and will resurface once fed
again.

> Please tell me how to do this. The fish is sitting in the corner of the
> tank, more miserable than ever, but he is still alive.
> Thank you again (everyone) for all your help.
> Best regards,
> ---Cindy S.

Please accept that he may not survive no matter what you do.
--

Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
Aquariums since 1952
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
NEW PAGE: Aquariums:
http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastadaisy/Aquarium-Page4.html
http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastadaisy
~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>

[cindys]

"Koi-lo" > wrote in message
...
>
> "cindys" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > I tried feeding the fish the inside of a pea. He was trying to eat it,
but
> > it's not clear if he succeeded or not.
>
> I've not had luck with the pea method. I've had GF seem to improve with
> swim-bladder but they always died in the end. In fact most of them
wouldn't
> eat the peas. It's like oranges now. Some GF love oranges and others
wont
> touch them.

The sick fish didn't eat the pea. The other fish did.
>

> Buy something that removes chlorine and chloromines (sp?).

Done. I just did another partial water change and treated the water with a
tablet to remove the chlorine and chloroamines.
>
>
> Why not start doing partial water
> changes on the tank he's in now? Whatever he was exposed to he already
> caught.

I did end up leaving him in the regular tank rather than moving him to
another tank and stressing him further.
>
>
> I wouldn't move him. Start the partial water changes. What he needs now
is
> CLEAN WATER.

I did this and this time added the salt. I also changed the filter.

>
> Shall I put him in a plastic bag
> > filled with water and let him reacclimate to the temperature in the old
> > tank? (Both tanks are now at the same temperature actually - room
> > temperature). Shall I put gravel on the bottom of the 1-gallon tank?
Shall
> > I
> > put salt? (I know I'm not supposed to feed the fish for 4 days).
>
> That will not cure swim-bladder problems. All it does is put a Band-Aid
on
> a skin cancer. The problem is STILL there and will resurface once fed
> again.

Is there no cure at all?
>
> > Please tell me how to do this. The fish is sitting in the corner of the
> > tank, more miserable than ever, but he is still alive.
> > Thank you again (everyone) for all your help.
> > Best regards,
> > ---Cindy S.
>
> Please accept that he may not survive no matter what you do.

:-(

Thanks again.
Best regards,
--Cindy S.

[Koi-lo]

"cindys" > wrote in message
.. .
>
> "Koi-lo" > wrote in message
>> That will not cure swim-bladder problems. All it does is put a Band-Aid
> on
>> a skin cancer. The problem is STILL there and will resurface once fed
>> again.
>
> Is there no cure at all?

Not that I'm aware of. It seems to be caused more by an internal deformity
of the body than any dietary or bacterial problem. GF after all, should
look like Shubunkins or Comets (their natural shape), not hunchback as the
fancies ones do. This is a genetic deformity that also deforms their
internal organs, the swim bladder being one of them. I have never once had
one of these *normal* shaped GF develop a swim bladder problem.

>> Please accept that he may not survive no matter what you do.
>
> :-(

They die on those of us with years of experience.......
--

Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
Aquariums since 1952
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
NEW PAGE: Aquariums:
http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastadaisy/Aquarium-Page4.html
http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastadaisy
~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>

[Geezer From The Freezer]

Actually Black Moors do better WITH a heater - especially
in such a small tank where temperature swings aren't uncommon.

[cindys]

"Koi-lo" > wrote in message
...
>
> "cindys" > wrote in message
> .. .
> >
> > "Koi-lo" > wrote in message
> >> That will not cure swim-bladder problems. All it does is put a
Band-Aid
> > on
> >> a skin cancer. The problem is STILL there and will resurface once fed
> >> again.
> >
> > Is there no cure at all?
>
> Not that I'm aware of. It seems to be caused more by an internal
deformity
> of the body than any dietary or bacterial problem. GF after all, should
> look like Shubunkins or Comets (their natural shape), not hunchback as the
> fancies ones do. This is a genetic deformity that also deforms their
> internal organs, the swim bladder being one of them. I have never once
had
> one of these *normal* shaped GF develop a swim bladder problem.
>
> >> Please accept that he may not survive no matter what you do.
--------------
My little fish died. So, now we have only 1 fish in the aquarium. I have
been doing partial water changes every day, but the water doesn't seem to
look any cleaner (it's still all discolored from the tetracycline). My
husband wants to put the remaining fish in the 1 gallon aquarium (only long
enough to allow him to scrub out the bigger aquarium). I told him that I
thought it would be too stressful for the fish and also that any good
bacteria that had grown on the gravel in the meantime would be destroyed. He
also wants to get another fish ASAP, and he thinks I'm crazy to insist that
we quarantine any new fish for 2 weeks. In truth, even if we had quarantined
the current fish for 2 weeks, the situation with the other fish would have
happened. We've had this new fish for more than 2 weeks, and and he/she
still seems perfectly healthy. My husband thinks the reason the first fish
died was because we "killed him with kindness," and told me that if I hadn't
been insistent on putting the tetracycline in the tank, he would have still
been alive. Then, alternately, he will say that it was his own fault the
fish died because he overfed him (I don't think he did really overfeed him.
He put a few extra fish flakes in the tank a few times). We're just very
distraught because we had the original fish in a 1 gallon tank, did
everything wrong, including not neutralizing the chlorine in the tap water,
and the fish survived beautifully for over a year. Then, we moved him into a
bigger tank with supposedly optimal conditions, and now he's dead.

So, what's next? I didn't want to get any other fish for a while. My husband
told me as far as he's concerned, the quarantine is unnecessary. He says he
plans to go to the pet store on Sunday (5 days from now), get a new fish,
and dump him/her in the tank (after allowing him/her to acclimate to the
water temperature for several minutes first). How and when should we
introduce a new fish? (I agree in this particular instance that the 14-day
quarantine may be unwarranted because our current fish and the new fish
could easily have been together in the tank at the pet store).
Best regards,
---Cindy S.

[Steve]

cindys wrote:

>
> So, what's next?

I haven't followed the whole story, but it sounds like some of my early
fish keeping efforts in the 60's.

I'm very sorry that your fish died, especially because you were attached
to it and had some other griefs to deal with.

As I understand it you now have a 10-gallon aquarium with one goldfish
and also a 1 gallon aquarium. If that is so, I'd just carry on with one
goldfish in the 10 gallon for a few months at least. The 1 gallon can be
used to raise some snails, and in distant future you may find other uses
for it.

Do a few 30% water changes every 3 days or so to get the medicines out,
and let your filter adjust. Please google aquarium cycling if you have
not done so. The healthy bacteria in your aquarium and filter will need
to re-establish after the medicines, and you may experience a "cycle".
Regular (weekly?) 30% water changes may mitigate any ammonia or nitrite
excess during this cycle.

If you have fluorescent lighting or some daylight, then adding live
plants would be a good idea. Hornwort, Java moss, Elodea/ Anacharis...
They absorb fish waste while growing, look good and give the goldfish
something to nibble on :) . The goldfish may eat all the plants, but
that's ok too.

Good luck!
Steve

[Koi-lo]

"cindys" > wrote in message
...
> My little fish died. So, now we have only 1 fish in the aquarium. I have
> been doing partial water changes every day, but the water doesn't seem to
> look any cleaner (it's still all discolored from the tetracycline).

Which is one reason I don't use this medication. It's not only pretty much
useless from overuse, but also hard to remove. If you want to bite the
bullet you can redo the whole tank and start over. If you do, you will have
to watch the ammonia and nitrites all over again.

My
> husband wants to put the remaining fish in the 1 gallon aquarium (only
> long
> enough to allow him to scrub out the bigger aquarium). I told him that I
> thought it would be too stressful for the fish and also that any good
> bacteria that had grown on the gravel in the meantime would be destroyed.

This is true. But if the Tet' really made a total mess of the tank let him
go ahead and do it.

He
> also wants to get another fish ASAP, and he thinks I'm crazy to insist
> that
> we quarantine any new fish for 2 weeks.

Explain to him how and why people quarantine fish. Clean the larger tank,
cycle it with the fish you now have. Keep the 1g running for a quarantine
take. If you can afford it get that produce they call Bio Spira to help
with the cycling in both. Also, treat all new fish for parasites. I use
Aquara-Sol or Quick-Cure, both are under $3.00. Do this while they're in
quarantine.

In truth, even if we had quarantined
> the current fish for 2 weeks, the situation with the other fish would have
> happened. We've had this new fish for more than 2 weeks, and and he/she
> still seems perfectly healthy. My husband thinks the reason the first fish
> died was because we "killed him with kindness," and told me that if I
> hadn't
> been insistent on putting the tetracycline in the tank, he would have
> still
> been alive.

No one can know for sure why your older fish perished. If he was in that 1g
tank and hadn't outgrown it in a year he must have had something wrong, some
problem, to start with. Healthy GF grow rapidly if well fed.

Then, alternately, he will say that it was his own fault the
> fish died because he overfed him (I don't think he did really overfeed
> him.
> He put a few extra fish flakes in the tank a few times).

That's not likely the reason at all.........

We're just very
> distraught because we had the original fish in a 1 gallon tank, did
> everything wrong, including not neutralizing the chlorine in the tap
> water,
> and the fish survived beautifully for over a year. Then, we moved him into
> a
> bigger tank with supposedly optimal conditions, and now he's dead.

If you didn't neutralize the tap water that must mean you just topped the 1g
tank off and didn't do partial changes?!?!?! He may not have been as
healthy as you think he was. I don't say this to be unkind but many
beginners don't realize there's a problem until the fish is too far gone to
save. A healthy GF would have outgrown a 1g tank long before a year passed.

What's next? I didn't want to get any other fish for a while. My husband
> told me as far as he's concerned, the quarantine is unnecessary.

May I ask? Is this HIS hobby or yours? Perhaps you should get another 10g
tank (or larger if possible) and do it the correct way. Let him do as he
wishes with his tank and fish.

He says he
> plans to go to the pet store on Sunday (5 days from now), get a new fish,
> and dump him/her in the tank (after allowing him/her to acclimate to the
> water temperature for several minutes first).

I think you need a tank of your own.

How and when should we
> introduce a new fish?

It doesn't seem to matter as your husband will do as he pleases no matter
what happens to the fish, or what's best for them.

(I agree in this particular instance that the 14-day
> quarantine may be unwarranted because our current fish and the new fish
> could easily have been together in the tank at the pet store).
> Best regards,
> ---Cindy S.

If the new fish is from the same store on a flow-through system then it wont
matter much. But what about cycling the tank? Why risk 2 fish when 1 will
do it - unless you use something like Bio Spira (costs around $15).
--

Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
Aquariums since 1952
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
Aquariums: http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastadaisy/Aquarium-Page4.html
http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastadaisy
~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>

[coolchinchilla]

cindys wrote:
> My little fish died.

I'm so sorry about your fish. It is wonderful that you cared so
much for the fish. You are a kind-hearted soul.

Linda and the zoo.

[[email protected]]

If you want more help with the fish I suggest you join the Puregold fish list
http://groups.google.com/group/Puregold

"cindys" > wrote:


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List at
http://weloveteaching.com/puregold/
sign up: http://groups.google.com/groups/dir?hl=en&q=puregold&qt_s=Group+lookup
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for
any of the recommendations I make.
AND I DID NOT AUTHORIZE ADS AT THE OLD PUREGOLD SITE

[Gail Futoran]

"cindys" > wrote in message
...

> My little fish died. So, now we have only 1 fish in the aquarium.
[snip]

I'm sorry your fish didn't make it.

Your original fish survived for over a year in
less than optimal conditions, but chances are
good it was stressed and as soon as conditions
changed (new fish, new tank, new water) its
immune system couldn't handle the stress.
Mostly likely that's why it got sick and died,
not because of overfeeding, or medicating.

You seem to have a good handle on how to
treat fish. I would continue doing partial water
changes and eventually the remaining drugs will
be out of the tank. Have you put charcoal in the
filter? That usually will clear up the remaining
medications. I avoid those expensive cartridges;
instead I buy a small media bag (available at
Petsmart etc.) and a box of activated charcoal
(same source). When I need to use charcoal, it's
simple to put some in a media bag and remove it
when the problem is solved. The media bag
rinses easily and can be reused.

At this point, it sounds like your husband isn't
willing to follow advice about quarantine. To
keep peace in the house, maybe it's best to just
let him get another fish. Hope for the best.
Some of us (and I do include myself in that)
need to learn lessons the hard way before we
truly learn. You might get lucky and the two
new fish will do fine.

Good luck!

Gail

[Squirrel]

On Wed, 18 Jan 2006 03:04:04 GMT, "cindys" >
wrote:

>
>"Koi-lo" > wrote in message
...
>>
>> "cindys" > wrote in message
>> .. .
>> >
>> > "Koi-lo" > wrote in message
>> >> That will not cure swim-bladder problems. All it does is put a
>Band-Aid
>> > on
>> >> a skin cancer. The problem is STILL there and will resurface once fed
>> >> again.
>> >
>> > Is there no cure at all?
>>
>> Not that I'm aware of. It seems to be caused more by an internal
>deformity
>> of the body than any dietary or bacterial problem. GF after all, should
>> look like Shubunkins or Comets (their natural shape), not hunchback as the
>> fancies ones do. This is a genetic deformity that also deforms their
>> internal organs, the swim bladder being one of them. I have never once
>had
>> one of these *normal* shaped GF develop a swim bladder problem.
>>
>> >> Please accept that he may not survive no matter what you do.
>--------------
>My little fish died. So, now we have only 1 fish in the aquarium. I have
>been doing partial water changes every day, but the water doesn't seem to
>look any cleaner (it's still all discolored from the tetracycline). My
>husband wants to put the remaining fish in the 1 gallon aquarium (only long
>enough to allow him to scrub out the bigger aquarium). I told him that I
>thought it would be too stressful for the fish and also that any good
>bacteria that had grown on the gravel in the meantime would be destroyed. He
>also wants to get another fish ASAP, and he thinks I'm crazy to insist that
>we quarantine any new fish for 2 weeks. In truth, even if we had quarantined
>the current fish for 2 weeks, the situation with the other fish would have
>happened. We've had this new fish for more than 2 weeks, and and he/she
>still seems perfectly healthy. My husband thinks the reason the first fish
>died was because we "killed him with kindness," and told me that if I hadn't
>been insistent on putting the tetracycline in the tank, he would have still
>been alive. Then, alternately, he will say that it was his own fault the
>fish died because he overfed him (I don't think he did really overfeed him.
>He put a few extra fish flakes in the tank a few times). We're just very
>distraught because we had the original fish in a 1 gallon tank, did
>everything wrong, including not neutralizing the chlorine in the tap water,
>and the fish survived beautifully for over a year. Then, we moved him into a
>bigger tank with supposedly optimal conditions, and now he's dead.
>
>So, what's next? I didn't want to get any other fish for a while. My husband
>told me as far as he's concerned, the quarantine is unnecessary. He says he
>plans to go to the pet store on Sunday (5 days from now), get a new fish,
>and dump him/her in the tank (after allowing him/her to acclimate to the
>water temperature for several minutes first). How and when should we
>introduce a new fish? (I agree in this particular instance that the 14-day
>quarantine may be unwarranted because our current fish and the new fish
>could easily have been together in the tank at the pet store).
>Best regards,
>---Cindy S.
>
who wears the pants in your house??

[Gail Futoran]

"Squirrel" > wrote in message
...
[snip]
>>
> who wears the pants in your house??

Your comment above was unnecessary.
Marriage is a compromise.
Cindy was doing her best for her fish.
Her decisions might not be your decisions
or mine, but I'm not so perfect that I'm
a candidate for godhood. Are you?

Gail

[Daniel Morrow]

Bottom posted.
Gail Futoran wrote:
> "Squirrel" > wrote in message
> ...
> [snip]
>>>
>> who wears the pants in your house??
>
> Your comment above was unnecessary.
> Marriage is a compromise.
> Cindy was doing her best for her fish.
> Her decisions might not be your decisions
> or mine, but I'm not so perfect that I'm
> a candidate for godhood. Are you?
>
> Gail

Squirrel might have mean't the opposite as even I seemed to take in from
cindy's talk that her husband is TOO bossy and might even be a know it all,
it might be appropriate for cindy to be bossy towards her husband about this
as this is her baby. If you're right gail I apologize for this over-defense
of squirrel (I don't remember if squirrel is a carol sock-puppet or whatever
but I feel his/her opinion was misread). Good luck and later!

[Koi-lo]

From: "Daniel Morrow" >
Subject: Re: Black moor resting by heater
Date: Friday, January 20, 2006 8:02 PM

If you're right gail I apologize for this over-defense
of squirrel (I don't remember if squirrel is a carol sock-puppet or whatever
but I feel his/her opinion was misread). Good luck and later!
======================================
Why don't you check the headers before making such a nasty comment on a NG?
If you don't even know what a header is ask someone to teach you. The
person named Squirrel isn't even in the USA. How insulting can you be?
I'm starting to wonder if you're one of THEM. Learn to check headers before
insulting people you don't even know.

Here, for your education and information is Squirrel's header:

OrgName: Asia Pacific Network Information Centre
OrgID: APNIC
Address: PO Box 2131
City: Milton
StateProv: QLD
PostalCode: 4064
Country: AU

ReferralServer: whois://whois.apnic.net

NetRange: 222.0.0.0 - 222.255.255.255
CIDR: 222.0.0.0/8
NetName: APNIC8
NetHandle: NET-222-0-0-0-1
Parent:
NetType: Allocated to APNIC
NameServer: NS1.APNIC.NET
NameServer: NS3.APNIC.NET
NameServer: NS4.APNIC.NET
NameServer: NS-SEC.RIPE.NET
NameServer: TINNIE.ARIN.NET
Comment: This IP address range is not registered in the ARIN database.
Comment: For details, refer to the APNIC Whois Database via
Comment: WHOIS.APNIC.NET or http://www.apnic.net/apnic-bin/whois2.pl
Comment: ** IMPORTANT NOTE: APNIC is the Regional Internet Registry
Comment: for the Asia Pacific region. APNIC does not operate networks
Comment: using this IP address range and is not able to investigate
Comment: spam or abuse reports relating to these addresses. For more
Comment: help, refer to http://www.apnic.net/info/faq/abuse
RegDate: 2003-02-13
Updated: 2005-05-20
--
Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
Aquariums since 1952
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
Aquariums: http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastadaisy/Aquarium-Page4.html
http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastadaisy
~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>

[Squirrel]

On Fri, 20 Jan 2006 13:49:36 GMT, "Gail Futoran"
> wrote:

>"Squirrel" > wrote in message
...
>[snip]
>>>
>> who wears the pants in your house??
>
>Your comment above was unnecessary.
>Marriage is a compromise.
>Cindy was doing her best for her fish.
>Her decisions might not be your decisions
>or mine, but I'm not so perfect that I'm
>a candidate for godhood. Are you?
>
>Gail
>
>
no not at all, but if my partnewr wanted to trweat my fish thwir way
and not mjine, I would not put up with it.

[Squirrel]

On Fri, 20 Jan 2006 18:02:13 -0800, "Daniel Morrow"
> wrote:

>Bottom posted.
>Gail Futoran wrote:
>> "Squirrel" > wrote in message
>> ...
>> [snip]
>>>>
>>> who wears the pants in your house??
>>
>> Your comment above was unnecessary.
>> Marriage is a compromise.
>> Cindy was doing her best for her fish.
>> Her decisions might not be your decisions
>> or mine, but I'm not so perfect that I'm
>> a candidate for godhood. Are you?
>>
>> Gail
>
>Squirrel might have mean't the opposite as even I seemed to take in from
>cindy's talk that her husband is TOO bossy and might even be a know it all,
>it might be appropriate for cindy to be bossy towards her husband about this
>as this is her baby. If you're right gail I apologize for this over-defense
>of squirrel (I don't remember if squirrel is a carol sock-puppet or whatever
>but I feel his/her opinion was misread). Good luck and later!
>
I (female from NZ) felt Cindy did everything her appearing bossy
husband said despite it beiong contrary to advice given by others, to
the point of the fish possibly enduring suffering.'
'

[Squirrel]

On Fri, 20 Jan 2006 23:00:51 -0600, "Koi-lo" >
wrote:

>
>From: "Daniel Morrow" >
>Subject: Re: Black moor resting by heater
>Date: Friday, January 20, 2006 8:02 PM
>
> If you're right gail I apologize for this over-defense
>of squirrel (I don't remember if squirrel is a carol sock-puppet or whatever
>but I feel his/her opinion was misread). Good luck and later!
>======================================
>Why don't you check the headers before making such a nasty comment on a NG?
>If you don't even know what a header is ask someone to teach you. The
>person named Squirrel isn't even in the USA. How insulting can you be?
>I'm starting to wonder if you're one of THEM. Learn to check headers before
>insulting people you don't even know.
>
>Here, for your education and information is Squirrel's header:
>
>OrgName: Asia Pacific Network Information Centre
>OrgID: APNIC
>Address: PO Box 2131
>City: Milton
>StateProv: QLD
>PostalCode: 4064
>Country: AU
>
>ReferralServer: whois://whois.apnic.net
>
>NetRange: 222.0.0.0 - 222.255.255.255
>CIDR: 222.0.0.0/8
>NetName: APNIC8
>NetHandle: NET-222-0-0-0-1
>Parent:
>NetType: Allocated to APNIC
>NameServer: NS1.APNIC.NET
>NameServer: NS3.APNIC.NET
>NameServer: NS4.APNIC.NET
>NameServer: NS-SEC.RIPE.NET
>NameServer: TINNIE.ARIN.NET
>Comment: This IP address range is not registered in the ARIN database.
>Comment: For details, refer to the APNIC Whois Database via
>Comment: WHOIS.APNIC.NET or http://www.apnic.net/apnic-bin/whois2.pl
>Comment: ** IMPORTANT NOTE: APNIC is the Regional Internet Registry
>Comment: for the Asia Pacific region. APNIC does not operate networks
>Comment: using this IP address range and is not able to investigate
>Comment: spam or abuse reports relating to these addresses. For more
>Comment: help, refer to http://www.apnic.net/info/faq/abuse
>RegDate: 2003-02-13
>Updated: 2005-05-20

dunno where you got those headers, I am with completely diff ISP not
even mentioned

[Koi-lo]

"Squirrel" > wrote in message
...

> dunno where you got those headers, I am with completely diff ISP not
> even mentioned
========================
The header comes straight *copied and pasted* from you first message:

OrgName: Asia Pacific Network Information Centre
OrgID: APNIC
Address: PO Box 2131
City: Milton
StateProv: QLD
PostalCode: 4064
Country: AU
ReferralServer: whois://whois.apnic.net
NetRange: 222.0.0.0 - 222.255.255.255 <--yours!

Your ISP may be a local or independent but your message to Usenet came
through the above service. You are not sending your messages from a USA
based ISP as I am. Here (below) is more information on your service. Mr.
Morrow didn't take the time to check. My messages originate in TN and go
through an ISP in MD here in the eastern USA. It's right in my headers if
anyone cares to check.

Comment: ** IMPORTANT NOTE: APNIC is the Regional Internet Registry
Comment: for the Asia Pacific region. APNIC does not operate networks
Comment: using this IP address range and is not able to investigate
Comment: spam or abuse reports relating to these addresses. For more
Comment: help, refer to http://www.apnic.net/info/faq/abuse

--

Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
Aquariums since 1952
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
Aquariums: http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastadaisy/Aquarium-Page4.html
http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastadaisy
~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>

[Koi-lo]

"Squirrel" > wrote in message
...
> On Fri, 20 Jan 2006 13:49:36 GMT, "Gail Futoran"
> > wrote:
>
>>"Squirrel" > wrote in message
...
>>[snip]
>>>>
>>> who wears the pants in your house??
>>
>>Your comment above was unnecessary.
>>Marriage is a compromise.
>>Cindy was doing her best for her fish.
>>Her decisions might not be your decisions
>>or mine, but I'm not so perfect that I'm
>>a candidate for godhood. Are you?
>>
>>Gail
>>
>>
> no not at all, but if my partnewr wanted to trweat my fish thwir way
> and not mjine, I would not put up with it.
==================================
She may have no choice in the matter. I would simply allow him to have that
tank and get another for myself. You can fit two 10 gallon tanks into the
smallest of apartments.
--

Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
Aquariums since 1952
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
Aquariums: http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastadaisy/Aquarium-Page4.html
http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastadaisy
~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>

[Squirrel]

On Sat, 21 Jan 2006 02:32:49 -0600, "Koi-lo" >
wrote:

>
>"Squirrel" > wrote in message
...
>> On Fri, 20 Jan 2006 13:49:36 GMT, "Gail Futoran"
>> > wrote:
>>
>>>"Squirrel" > wrote in message
...
>>>[snip]
>>>>>
>>>> who wears the pants in your house??
>>>
>>>Your comment above was unnecessary.
>>>Marriage is a compromise.
>>>Cindy was doing her best for her fish.
>>>Her decisions might not be your decisions
>>>or mine, but I'm not so perfect that I'm
>>>a candidate for godhood. Are you?
>>>
>>>Gail
>>>
>>>
>> no not at all, but if my partnewr wanted to trweat my fish thwir way
>> and not mjine, I would not put up with it.
>==================================
>She may have no choice in the matter. I would simply allow him to have that
>tank and get another for myself. You can fit two 10 gallon tanks into the
>smallest of apartments.
iof she is allowed to buy another one

[Squirrel]

On Sat, 21 Jan 2006 02:30:03 -0600, "Koi-lo" >
wrote:

>
>"Squirrel" > wrote in message
...
>
>> dunno where you got those headers, I am with completely diff ISP not
>> even mentioned
>========================
>The header comes straight *copied and pasted* from you first message:
>
>OrgName: Asia Pacific Network Information Centre
>OrgID: APNIC
>Address: PO Box 2131
>City: Milton
>StateProv: QLD
>PostalCode: 4064
>Country: AU
>ReferralServer: whois://whois.apnic.net
>NetRange: 222.0.0.0 - 222.255.255.255 <--yours!
>
>Your ISP may be a local or independent but your message to Usenet came
>through the above service. You are not sending your messages from a USA
>based ISP as I am. Here (below) is more information on your service. Mr.
>Morrow didn't take the time to check. My messages originate in TN and go
>through an ISP in MD here in the eastern USA. It's right in my headers if
>anyone cares to check.
>
>Comment: ** IMPORTANT NOTE: APNIC is the Regional Internet Registry
>Comment: for the Asia Pacific region. APNIC does not operate networks
>Comment: using this IP address range and is not able to investigate
>Comment: spam or abuse reports relating to these addresses. For more
>Comment: help, refer to http://www.apnic.net/info/faq/abuse

when I first posted I said I was from NZ, those headers are
austraolian

[Gail Futoran]

"Squirrel" > wrote in message
...
> On Fri, 20 Jan 2006 18:02:13 -0800, "Daniel Morrow"
> > wrote:
>
>>Bottom posted.
>>Gail Futoran wrote:
>>> "Squirrel" > wrote in message
>>> ...
>>> [snip]
>>>>>
>>>> who wears the pants in your house??
>>>
>>> Your comment above was unnecessary.
>>> Marriage is a compromise.
>>> Cindy was doing her best for her fish.
>>> Her decisions might not be your decisions
>>> or mine, but I'm not so perfect that I'm
>>> a candidate for godhood. Are you?
>>>
>>> Gail
>>
>>Squirrel might have mean't the opposite as even I seemed to take in from
>>cindy's talk that her husband is TOO bossy and might even be a know it
>>all,
>>it might be appropriate for cindy to be bossy towards her husband about
>>this
>>as this is her baby. If you're right gail I apologize for this
>>over-defense
>>of squirrel (I don't remember if squirrel is a carol sock-puppet or
>>whatever
>>but I feel his/her opinion was misread). Good luck and later!
>>
> I (female from NZ) felt Cindy did everything her appearing bossy
> husband said despite it beiong contrary to advice given by others, to
> the point of the fish possibly enduring suffering.'

Unlike many newbies who post, Cindy seemed
genuinely willing to listen to and respond to
advice given to her, and to seek more information
(by buying books). That's rare, and should
be appreciated and respected.

The problem is suppose the husband was
getting entirely DIFFERENT advice from his
LFS? And bad advice at that? We've all seen
that happen; it's happened to most of us. Given
their experience with the fish (apparently thrived
for a year in what WE know was less than
optimal conditions), given perhaps contradictory
information from us and their LFS, given that
information from the Internet is not always
trustworthy, I don't blame the husband for
seeking his own path. I wish he HAD taken our
advice but my point was to support Cindy,
not make judgments about her family.

Having said that, I was being judgmental about
Squirrel's comment and that was unnecessary.
For that lapse, I do apologize to Squirrel.

Gail

[Koi-lo]

"Squirrel" > wrote in message
...
> On Sat, 21 Jan 2006 02:30:03 -0600, "Koi-lo" >
> wrote:
>
>>
>>"Squirrel" > wrote in message
...
>>
>>> dunno where you got those headers, I am with completely diff ISP not
>>> even mentioned
>>========================
>>The header comes straight *copied and pasted* from you first message:
>>
>>OrgName: Asia Pacific Network Information Centre
>>OrgID: APNIC
>>Address: PO Box 2131
>>City: Milton
>>StateProv: QLD
>>PostalCode: 4064
>>Country: AU
>>ReferralServer: whois://whois.apnic.net
>>NetRange: 222.0.0.0 - 222.255.255.255 <--yours!
>>
>>Your ISP may be a local or independent but your message to Usenet came
>>through the above service. You are not sending your messages from a USA
>>based ISP as I am. Here (below) is more information on your service. Mr.
>>Morrow didn't take the time to check. My messages originate in TN and go
>>through an ISP in MD here in the eastern USA. It's right in my headers if
>>anyone cares to check.
>>
>>Comment: ** IMPORTANT NOTE: APNIC is the Regional Internet Registry
>>Comment: for the Asia Pacific region. APNIC does not operate networks
>>Comment: using this IP address range and is not able to investigate
>>Comment: spam or abuse reports relating to these addresses. For more
>>Comment: help, refer to http://www.apnic.net/info/faq/abuse
>
> when I first posted I said I was from NZ, those headers are
> austraolian
==================================
Take a LOOK at your own headers. If you don't understand how to read them
call your ISP and ask. You may live in NZ but AU is where your messages
left from. When you send something in NZ it's obviously sent to a server in
AU and leaves from there. I don't live in MD but that's where my messages
ultimately leave from.
--
Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
Aquariums since 1952
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
Aquariums:
http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastadaisy/Aquarium-Page4.html
http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastadaisy
~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>

[Koi-lo]

"Squirrel" > wrote in message
...
> On Sat, 21 Jan 2006 02:32:49 -0600, "Koi-lo" >
> wrote:
>>She may have no choice in the matter. I would simply allow him to have
>>that
>>tank and get another for myself. You can fit two 10 gallon tanks into the
>>smallest of apartments.

> iof she is allowed to buy another one
====================================
Well, lets hope she can persuade him to do some research on the net and
he'll soon learn that the advice from a salesperson in the LFS is near
worthless.
--
Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
Aquariums since 1952
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
Aquariums: http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastadaisy/Aquarium-Page4.html
http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastadaisy
~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>

[Squirrel]

On Sat, 21 Jan 2006 12:01:29 -0600, "Koi-lo" >
wrote:

>
>"Squirrel" > wrote in message
...
>> On Sat, 21 Jan 2006 02:30:03 -0600, "Koi-lo" >
>> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>"Squirrel" > wrote in message
...
>>>
>>>> dunno where you got those headers, I am with completely diff ISP not
>>>> even mentioned
>>>========================
>>>The header comes straight *copied and pasted* from you first message:
>>>
>>>OrgName: Asia Pacific Network Information Centre
>>>OrgID: APNIC
>>>Address: PO Box 2131
>>>City: Milton
>>>StateProv: QLD
>>>PostalCode: 4064
>>>Country: AU
>>>ReferralServer: whois://whois.apnic.net
>>>NetRange: 222.0.0.0 - 222.255.255.255 <--yours!
>>>
>>>Your ISP may be a local or independent but your message to Usenet came
>>>through the above service. You are not sending your messages from a USA
>>>based ISP as I am. Here (below) is more information on your service. Mr.
>>>Morrow didn't take the time to check. My messages originate in TN and go
>>>through an ISP in MD here in the eastern USA. It's right in my headers if
>>>anyone cares to check.
>>>
>>>Comment: ** IMPORTANT NOTE: APNIC is the Regional Internet Registry
>>>Comment: for the Asia Pacific region. APNIC does not operate networks
>>>Comment: using this IP address range and is not able to investigate
>>>Comment: spam or abuse reports relating to these addresses. For more
>>>Comment: help, refer to http://www.apnic.net/info/faq/abuse
>>
>> when I first posted I said I was from NZ, those headers are
>> austraolian
>==================================
>Take a LOOK at your own headers. If you don't understand how to read them
>call your ISP and ask. You may live in NZ but AU is where your messages
>left from. When you send something in NZ it's obviously sent to a server in
>AU and leaves from there. I don't live in MD but that's where my messages
>ultimately leave from.

frankly I dont care where they come from, I was merely confirming I
came from NZ

[cindys]

"Squirrel" > wrote in message
...
> On Fri, 20 Jan 2006 18:02:13 -0800, "Daniel Morrow"
> > wrote:
>
> >Bottom posted.
> >Gail Futoran wrote:
> >> "Squirrel" > wrote in message
> >> ...
> >> [snip]
> >>>>
> >>> who wears the pants in your house??
> >>
> >> Your comment above was unnecessary.
> >> Marriage is a compromise.
> >> Cindy was doing her best for her fish.
> >> Her decisions might not be your decisions
> >> or mine, but I'm not so perfect that I'm
> >> a candidate for godhood. Are you?
> >>
> >> Gail
> >
> >Squirrel might have mean't the opposite as even I seemed to take in from
> >cindy's talk that her husband is TOO bossy and might even be a know it
all,
> >it might be appropriate for cindy to be bossy towards her husband about
this
> >as this is her baby. If you're right gail I apologize for this
over-defense
> >of squirrel (I don't remember if squirrel is a carol sock-puppet or
whatever
> >but I feel his/her opinion was misread). Good luck and later!
> >
> I (female from NZ) felt Cindy did everything her appearing bossy
> husband said despite it beiong contrary to advice given by others, to
> the point of the fish possibly enduring suffering.'
------------
To clarify the situation: One day about a year ago, my husband came home
from work with a 1 gallon aquarium and 2 fish that someone from work
apparently didn't want anymore. At the time, I didn't want an aquarium,
seeing that we already had a dog and 4 cats, but he insisted on keeping it
and said he would be solely responsible for it. One of the two fish died
right away. He went to the local Petco to find out what happened (and with
the intention of replacing the fish). The clerk explained to him that a
1-gallon tank couldn't possibly sustain 2 fish and not to replace the fish
unless he intended to get a larger aquarium. So, he did not replace the fish
and just kept the 1 fish in the aquarium for an entire year, taking sole
responsibility for the fish, feeding the fish every day, changing the water
etc.

Then, maybe a month ago, he felt that he wanted to move to a larger aquarium
and get a second fish. That's when he got the 10-gallon aquarium kit, set up
the aquarim according to the instructions that came with it, and got a
second fish. He was taking care of both fish for several weeks, and they
seemed fine. Then, one day (about 2 weeks ago), it seemed like the original
fish was having trouble swimming. I looked at it and saw that its tail and
fins looked ragged and it just looked ill. That's when I started doing some
internet searches for information. I phoned the Petco, and they told me the
fish had fin and tail rot and to treat the tank with tetracycline, and
that's also the same time I found this group. That was the point that I
first took interest in and responsibility for the fish and determined to try
to save the original fish (but unfortunately failed). At my request, my
husband made an extra trip to PetCo to get the water testing kit plus better
fish food (and the goldfish book). He turned off the heater when I asked him
to (without an argument). I made 2 more trips to PetCo to get the
antichlorine tablets and the salt. All in all, between the two of us, we
made 3 or 4 trips to Petco and spent over $50 trying to save the fish. And
after we did all that and the fish still died, my husband basically said
"Enough is enough. The tank is a murky mess from the tetracycline. We've
spent a fortune on supplies. We're talking about a $2 goldfish here. Let's
stop all this nonsense and just get another fish."

So, in summary, the fish was his from the beginning. The hobby was his. I
had zero interest in any of this until 2 weeks ago when I decided to try to
save the fish. My husband went along with all of it, but simply reached a
point where he said enough was enough. He previously stated he was going to
replace the fish tomorrow, but sometimes, his bark is worse than his bite. I
would be willing to bet the fish will not be replaced until I agree to it,
and he has agreed to ask the clerk at Petco if the fish tanks are treated
for parasites before buying another fish and dumping it in our tank. He has
threatened to scrub the tetracycline out of our current tank, but hasn't
done it yet (after I warned him about disturbing the biosphere). But the
reality is, when you're married, you pick your battles. I'm glad he's not
pushing the issue, but if he did go to the store and replace the fish, I
certainly wouldn't divorce him over it.
Best regards,
---Cindy S.

[Koi-lo]

"Squirrel" > wrote in message
...

>>ultimately leave from.
>
> frankly I dont care where they come from, I was merely confirming I
> came from NZ
===================
I know *you* come from NZ. That shows in your header as well. :-)
--
Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
Aquariums since 1952
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
Aquariums: http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastadaisy/Aquarium-Page4.html
http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastadaisy
~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>

[Koi-lo]

"cindys" > wrote in message
. ..
> ------------
> Then, maybe a month ago, he felt that he wanted to move to a larger
> aquarium
> and get a second fish. That's when he got the 10-gallon aquarium kit, set
> up
> the aquarim according to the instructions that came with it, and got a
> second fish. He was taking care of both fish for several weeks, and they
> seemed fine. Then, one day (about 2 weeks ago), it seemed like the
> original
> fish was having trouble swimming. I looked at it and saw that its tail and
> fins looked ragged and it just looked ill. That's when I started doing
> some
> internet searches for information. I phoned the Petco, and they told me
> the
> fish had fin and tail rot and to treat the tank with tetracycline, and
> that's also the same time I found this group.

I'm glad you found us. :-) And PLEASE do not ask advice from the clerks in
those stores. 99.9% of them are clueless and just want to sell you
something. Even some websites are only looking to sell you some product and
make money.

The tank is a murky mess from the tetracycline. We've
> spent a fortune on supplies. We're talking about a $2 goldfish here. Let's
> stop all this nonsense and just get another fish."

I can see how he'd feel that way.....

> So, in summary, the fish was his from the beginning. The hobby was his. I
> had zero interest in any of this until 2 weeks ago when I decided to try
> to
> save the fish. My husband went along with all of it, but simply reached a
> point where he said enough was enough. He previously stated he was going
> to
> replace the fish tomorrow, but sometimes, his bark is worse than his bite.
> I
> would be willing to bet the fish will not be replaced until I agree to it,
> and he has agreed to ask the clerk at Petco if the fish tanks are treated
> for parasites before buying another fish and dumping it in our tank.

Treat them for parasites anyway. The clerk may not know or give you the
wrong information.

He has
> threatened to scrub the tetracycline out of our current tank, but hasn't
> done it yet (after I warned him about disturbing the biosphere). But the
> reality is, when you're married, you pick your battles. I'm glad he's not
> pushing the issue, but if he did go to the store and replace the fish, I
> certainly wouldn't divorce him over it.
> Best regards,
> ---Cindy S.

Please let us know what happens Cindy.
--
Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
Aquariums since 1952
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
Aquariums:
http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastadaisy/Aquarium-Page4.html
http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastadaisy
~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>

[Koi-lo]

"Gail Futoran" > wrote in message
...
> Sometimes the hobbies dovetail. He likes
> to build things, and built me a lovely cabinet
> for my 30gal long tank. He built it big enough
> to handle a 55 gallon, figuring that would be my
> next step, but I'm being strong and sticking with
> the 30G. :)
=======================
OMG what a waste!!!! :-))) Put a 55g on that stand and set the 30Long on
decorative bricks wherever you have some floor space.......
--
Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
Aquariums since 1952
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastadaisy
~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>

[cindys]

"Koi-lo" > wrote in message
...
>
> "cindys" > wrote in message
> . ..

snip for brevity
>
> I'm glad you found us. :-) And PLEASE do not ask advice from the clerks
in
> those stores. 99.9% of them are clueless and just want to sell you
> something. Even some websites are only looking to sell you some product
and
> make money.
>
> The tank is a murky mess from the tetracycline. We've
> > spent a fortune on supplies. We're talking about a $2 goldfish here.
Let's
> > stop all this nonsense and just get another fish."
>
> I can see how he'd feel that way.....
>
snip

> Treat them for parasites anyway. The clerk may not know or give you the
> wrong information.
>
>
> Please let us know what happens Cindy.
-----------
What happened is that my husband went to Petco yesterday and bought another
fish. Apparently, he asked the clerk about treating the fish for parasites.
The clerk said she didn't know what he was talking about, that she never
heard of such a thing. She told him that all he needed to do was to
acclimate the fish by keeping it in the plastic bag for 15 minutes submersed
in the tank, then dump it in. She did at least advise him to avoid mixing
the aquarium water from Petco with the water in our tank. My husband insists
that the clerk at Petco is the authority here and that we need to go with
the advice from the *experts* at Petco and not what people are telling me on
Usenet. <giant sigh>. Then, he started complaining that the tank is still
murky from the tetracycline (it's gradually getting clearer with the daily
water changes, but he claims it's getting worse...I think he's imagining
things....). He said that I should ask you guys how to get rid of the
tetracycline in the tank.

Regarding the new fish, since my husband did not buy any product to kill
potential parasites, I decided not to quarantine the new fish (and thus
avoid yet another potential argument). So, I threw caution to the wind and
followed the instructions from the clerk at Petco, and now I'm hoping for
the best and hoping that the new fish didn't bring in some disease or
parasites, especially since the other fish has grown in the short time we've
had her and seems to be thriving, although I have noticed that she seems to
have lost some of her black coloration since we've had her and is a bit more
gold. The new fish is also a black moor but seems to be a different variety.
My son deliberately picked out the smallest one in the Petco tank "so that
it could grow." The tail seems extremely short and is in 4 segments, unlike
the other black moor whose tail is long and luxurious and has a 3-segment
tail. Anyway, we'll see what happens. I keep checking the tank to ensure
that neither fish is showing signs of distress. So far so good, but we've
only had the new fish for a little over 12 hours...
Thank you everyone for your help. I will keep you posted.
Best regards,
---Cindy S.

[Steve]

cindys wrote:

> What happened is that my husband went to Petco yesterday and bought another
> fish. Apparently, he asked the clerk about treating the fish for parasites.
> The clerk said she didn't know what he was talking about, that she never
> heard of such a thing. She told him that all he needed to do was to
> acclimate the fish by keeping it in the plastic bag for 15 minutes submersed
> in the tank, then dump it in. She did at least advise him to avoid mixing
> the aquarium water from Petco with the water in our tank. My husband insists
> that the clerk at Petco is the authority here and that we need to go with
> the advice from the *experts* at Petco and not what people are telling me on
> Usenet. <giant sigh>. Then, he started complaining that the tank is still
> murky from the tetracycline (it's gradually getting clearer with the daily
> water changes, but he claims it's getting worse...I think he's imagining
> things....). He said that I should ask you guys how to get rid of the
> tetracycline in the tank.
>
> Regarding the new fish, since my husband did not buy any product to kill
> potential parasites, I decided not to quarantine the new fish (and thus
> avoid yet another potential argument). So, I threw caution to the wind and
> followed the instructions from the clerk at Petco, and now I'm hoping for
> the best and hoping that the new fish didn't bring in some disease or
> parasites, especially since the other fish has grown in the short time we've
> had her and seems to be thriving, although I have noticed that she seems to
> have lost some of her black coloration since we've had her and is a bit more
> gold. The new fish is also a black moor but seems to be a different variety.
> My son deliberately picked out the smallest one in the Petco tank "so that
> it could grow." The tail seems extremely short and is in 4 segments, unlike
> the other black moor whose tail is long and luxurious and has a 3-segment
> tail. Anyway, we'll see what happens. I keep checking the tank to ensure
> that neither fish is showing signs of distress. So far so good, but we've
> only had the new fish for a little over 12 hours...
> Thank you everyone for your help. I will keep you posted.
> Best regards,
> ---Cindy S.
>
>

I also just equalize new fishes' temperature then put them into the
community aquarium, discarding the pet store water. I know better, but
my quarantine aquariums have become permanent fish homes. With tropical
fish I've been getting away with this scott-free for several years, and
it has the advantage that the new fish have a stress-free life in the
big aquarium.

As to treating new fish with chemicals to get rid of (imaginary?)
parasites, that doesn't sound like a good idea. Why stress the fish
unnecessarily?

Two goldfish in 10 gallons really is too much, so keep up with weekly
partial water changes. And start saving for a 30 gallon aquarium :) .
Happy fish keeping!
Steve

[Gail Futoran]

"cindys" > wrote in message
.. .
[big snip]
> He said that I should ask you guys how to get rid of the
> tetracycline in the tank.
[snip]

I can't recall your setup. Do you have a power
filter that hangs off the back of the tank? If so,
it's easy to buy a cartridge for the filter that
contains carbon. This will remove the
tetracycline from the tank.

Don't leave the carbon cartridge in the filter
for long. That's a whole other subject, but
generally a carbon cartridge is useful only
in specific cases such as removing meds.
Left in the filter too long, it starts to cause
problems. "Too long" is generally more
than a month, but with dirty fish like goldfish,
I'd be tempted to remove it after 2 weeks.

You mentioned one of the fish changing color.
I don't know much about the fancier goldfish,
but common goldfish and comets do tend
to change color somewhat as they age. You
might do some googling on goldfish and
changing colors to see what you can come
up with.

Gail

[Koi-lo]

"Steve" > wrote in message
...
> I also just equalize new fishes' temperature then put them into the
> community aquarium, discarding the pet store water. I know better, but my
> quarantine aquariums have become permanent fish homes.

This happens with many of us. ;-)

With tropical
> fish I've been getting away with this scott-free for several years, and it
> has the advantage that the new fish have a stress-free life in the big
> aquarium.

Quarantine tanks, if set up properly, are not stressful for the fish. An
empty tank with nothing but a filter intake may be!

> As to treating new fish with chemicals to get rid of (imaginary?)

Parasites are not imaginary and they can be deadly. You never heard of ick
for instance? Do you own a microscope? My favorite fish store was selling
fish infested with gillflukes several years ago. They caught the
infestation themselves, admitted it and replaced the goldfish that died (in
my quarantine tank). The second problem was Costia! A very tiny parasite
you can't see with the naked eye, but very deadly. The chain stores are
sensitive to complaints of their customers, especially when you hand them a
slide with the parasites under a cover-glass. They replaced those fish as
well. Every fish you buy isn't going to have parasites but what about those
that do? You can lose every fish you have by purchasing ONE infested fish
that could have been quarantined and treated. They will replace those they
sold you that died but they will not replace the rest of your valuable fish.

> parasites, that doesn't sound like a good idea. Why stress the fish
> unnecessarily?

How is treating them for parasites stressful? Are you aware of the stress
they and you will endure if they *DO* have something like flukes or costia
and you add them to your community tank? :-(

> Two goldfish in 10 gallons really is too much, so keep up with weekly
> partial water changes. And start saving for a 30 gallon aquarium :) .
> Happy fish keeping!
> Steve
--
Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
Aquariums since 1952
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastadaisy
~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>

[Koi-lo]

"cindys" > wrote in message
.. .
> What happened is that my husband went to Petco yesterday and bought
> another
> fish. Apparently, he asked the clerk about treating the fish for
> parasites.
> The clerk said she didn't know what he was talking about, that she never
> heard of such a thing.

See what I mean about clueless? How can a clerk in a store selling fish not
know fish carry parasites? Just Google goldfish+parasites or
goldfish+diseases, or check out someplace like www.koivet.com, a site run by
a Lic. veterinarian. There is no excuse for such an ignorant clerk in a
fish store. They give them no training or education whatsoever except how
to SELL and be polite to the customers. I've had a mixed experience with
employees at the Petco here. Some were knowledgeable but most, the
majority, were clueless where fish are concerned.

She told him that all he needed to do was to
> acclimate the fish by keeping it in the plastic bag for 15 minutes
> submersed
> in the tank, then dump it in.

What an ignorant thing she is!!! She obviously didn't know if the PH (and
hardness) of the water the fish was in at the store, and the PH (ask Max
about TDSs) in your tank were different, it could kill the fish. It damages
their gills. Unfortunately it can take a week or more to kill them. I know
this from sad personal experience. Our problem is our water is hard and
alkaline and the LFSs here have water that's slightly acid or neutral, and
much softer. A recipe for disaster. I have to acclimate new fish over a
period of hours if I want them to survive. Your husband needs to do some
research on the net - or show him our messages. :-)

She did at least advise him to avoid mixing
> the aquarium water from Petco with the water in our tank. My husband
> insists
> that the clerk at Petco is the authority here and that we need to go with
> the advice from the *experts* at Petco and not what people are telling me
> on
> Usenet. <giant sigh>.

But you have a computer he can do research on!?!?!?!?!

Then, he started complaining that the tank is still
> murky from the tetracycline (it's gradually getting clearer with the daily
> water changes, but he claims it's getting worse...I think he's imagining
> things....). He said that I should ask you guys how to get rid of the
> tetracycline in the tank.

I'm not being rude but I'm surprised he didn't ask this "expert" at the
store, not that she would know! ;-) He can either step up the PWCs, clean
the whole tank and start again, or use a lot of activated carbon in the
filter or some combination of these suggestions....

> Regarding the new fish, since my husband did not buy any product to kill
> potential parasites, I decided not to quarantine the new fish (and thus
> avoid yet another potential argument).

Cindy, your husband sounds a lot like my 1st husband. Since I worked and
had my own income I just went out and bought myself a 30Long tank and never
said another word to him regarding tank #1. Sometimes it's the best way to
handle such a situation if you enjoy the fish as well. This way there was
no arguing about what fiter to use, how many airstones, what brand food to
buy, how many fish.......... :-)))

So, I threw caution to the wind and
> followed the instructions from the clerk at Petco, and now I'm hoping for
> the best and hoping that the new fish didn't bring in some disease or
> parasites, especially since the other fish has grown in the short time
> we've
> had her and seems to be thriving, although I have noticed that she seems
> to
> have lost some of her black coloration since we've had her and is a bit
> more
> gold.

Some moors don't stay black. They're still pretty fish when gold.

> The new fish is also a black moor but seems to be a different variety.

I have seen variations in moors as well as the other breeds.

> My son deliberately picked out the smallest one in the Petco tank "so that
> it could grow." The tail seems extremely short and is in 4 segments,
> unlike
> the other black moor whose tail is long and luxurious and has a 3-segment
> tail. Anyway, we'll see what happens. I keep checking the tank to ensure
> that neither fish is showing signs of distress. So far so good, but we've
> only had the new fish for a little over 12 hours...
> Thank you everyone for your help. I will keep you posted.
> Best regards,
> ---Cindy S.

We'll be here and good luck!
--

Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
Aquariums since 1952
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastadaisy
~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>

[Steve]

Koi-lo wrote:

>
>
> Parasites are not imaginary and they can be deadly. You never heard of
> ick for instance? ...
>
>
> How is treating them for parasites stressful?

WRT ich specifically, I've come to understand from this newsgroup and
other reading, that healthy, unstressed fish ward off the parasite and
are not affected. Stressing fish with a chemical dip or bath might be
just the recipe for making fish susceptible to ich and other things?

My fishkeeping hobby in the last 15 years has been much influenced by
reading a book by Stephen Spotte about fish and invertebrate culture. He
demonstrated quite conclusively that most common fish ailments are
brought on by stress. Minimizing stress leads to healthy fish. Spotte
was a great proponent of biological filtration (absence of ammonia/
nitrite leads to low stress) when it was not widely understood.

Steve

[Koi-lo]

"Steve" > wrote in message
...
> Koi-lo wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> Parasites are not imaginary and they can be deadly. You never heard of
>> ick for instance? ...
>>
>>
>> How is treating them for parasites stressful?
>
> WRT ich specifically, I've come to understand from this newsgroup and
> other reading, that healthy, unstressed fish ward off the parasite and are
> not affected. Stressing fish with a chemical dip or bath might be just the
> recipe for making fish susceptible to ich and other things?

I'm not talking about baths and dips Steve. I'm talking about using
something like Quick-Cure, Clout or AquraSol that you add to the water.
Even healthy fish can become stressed and of the parasites are already there
(because no one treated them) they're sitting ducks for disaster.

> My fishkeeping hobby in the last 15 years has been much influenced by
> reading a book by Stephen Spotte about fish and invertebrate culture. He
> demonstrated quite conclusively that most common fish ailments are brought
> on by stress.

I don't disagree. But stress can also be caused by a parasite problem -
then you have a runaway merry-go-round. The more the parasites stress the
fish the weaker it becomes which allows more parasites to reproduce which
causes more stress. That's simplifying it but you get the idea. Better to
remove the parasites first, before introducing the fish to your other fish.

Minimizing stress leads to healthy fish.

Even healthy fish can't ward off some of these parasites. Wait until your
fishes first infestation! :-(
Just the act of the breeder catching, bagging and shipping the fish to the
wholesaler is stressful. Then more stress as the WS catches, bags and ships
them to the stores. Then even more stress as the store catches and bags
them for you - you bring it home and there's even more stress in different
water, a different home, different food, different temperatures, strange
fish.... it's a wonder any of them survive.

Spotte
> was a great proponent of biological filtration (absence of ammonia/
> nitrite leads to low stress) when it was not widely understood.
>
> Steve

Parasites are no respector of health. A hungry fluke will do as much
feeding damage to a healthy fish's gill rakers as it will a sick fishes gill
rakers. I know this from experience. A hungry tick, louse or mosquito
doesn't care if you're 100% healthy or about to die - they fill feed off you
just like a costia or ick parasite will feed off the first fish it attaches
itself to.
--

Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
Aquariums since 1952
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastadaisy
~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>

[[email protected]]

Fancy GF and koi are selected for other considerations than a good immune system.
But given that there are two conditions that lead a fish to disease; stress and HIGH
numbers of pathogens.
stress can result from lousy or toxic water, lousy or toxic food, not enough food,
low oxygen levels, overcrowding, harassment, loud noise, rapidly changing
temperatures or other pH, or etc. AND, medications.
My ponds have always been healthier for my fish even with more "cooties" because
there is less stress of other kinds especially there is no ammonia, no nitrates.
Even in well seasoned tanks nitrate levels are always a problem.
Ingrid

Steve > wrote:
>WRT ich specifically, I've come to understand from this newsgroup and
>other reading, that healthy, unstressed fish ward off the parasite and
>are not affected. Stressing fish with a chemical dip or bath might be
>just the recipe for making fish susceptible to ich and other things?
>
>My fishkeeping hobby in the last 15 years has been much influenced by
>reading a book by Stephen Spotte about fish and invertebrate culture. He
>demonstrated quite conclusively that most common fish ailments are
>brought on by stress. Minimizing stress leads to healthy fish. Spotte
>was a great proponent of biological filtration (absence of ammonia/
>nitrite leads to low stress) when it was not widely understood.
>
>Steve



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List at
http://weloveteaching.com/puregold/
sign up: http://groups.google.com/groups/dir?hl=en&q=puregold&qt_s=Group+lookup
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for
any of the recommendations I make.
AND I DID NOT AUTHORIZE ADS AT THE OLD PUREGOLD SITE

[Koi-lo]

> wrote in message
...
> Fancy GF and koi are selected for other considerations than a good immune
> system.
> But given that there are two conditions that lead a fish to disease;
> stress and HIGH
> numbers of pathogens........
======================
Parasites aside for a minute as they're not the only problem we can
introduce with new fish,...I would rather have any new kio or GF die in
quarantine than spread something like KHV or SVC to the rest of my fish.
No salt dip or Quick-Cure will cure these diseases.
--

Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
Aquariums since 1952
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastadaisy
~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>

[[email protected]]

Koi-lo wrote:
> > wrote in message
> ...
> > Fancy GF and koi are selected for other considerations than a good immune
> > system.
> > But given that there are two conditions that lead a fish to disease;
> > stress and HIGH
> > numbers of pathogens........
> ======================
> Parasites aside for a minute as they're not the only problem we can
> introduce with new fish,...I would rather have any new kio or GF die in
> quarantine than spread something like KHV or SVC to the rest of my fish.
> No salt dip or Quick-Cure will cure these diseases.
> --
> Carolyn Adamo Gulley
3245 North Lamar Road Mount Juliet TN 37122-7806
Phone 615-459-9345

has been caught in various vicious lies!
Before plaguing ARJW with her nonsense, she use to plague the Health NG
do a google search on Yarrow / windsong / Carol for more details.

http://tinyurl.com/99azt
http://tinyurl.com/87ow4
http://tinyurl.com/d6t5m
http://tinyurl.com/aheek
http://tinyurl.com/ck97r
http://tinyurl.com/cm3dp
http://tinyurl.com/8bscg
http://tinyurl.com/7epdg
http://tinyurl.com/bya3z
When she is best by a man she accuse him of stalking

http://tinyurl.com/8wryt

She engages people in senseless debates about absolutely nothing.
Her intent on ARJW is to slander JW's

Before you reply, you may want to ask her a few things or only one.
_Where does she get her information?
_Can her information be verified?
_Is the information up to date?
_What is the purpose of her post? To present reliable facts about JW's
or sling mud on a religious organization in good standing in almost
every country in the world?

Ask her for evidence of her claims before proceeding with your
conversation with her, if not you may be end up wasting your time and
bandwidth on discussing subjects based on fraudulent and fabricated
information. This is how she manipulates clueless bystanders in
participating with her distributing false information elsewhere?

Facts about Carol:

*She can never present evidence.
*She never reveals the source of her info (because there is none). Her
common reply, is: "everybody already knows". If everybody knew, why
bring it up?
*She always hides her identity. And change her header to avoid
killfiles. A TOS offense
*She cuts and paste, rewrite postings, and will even forge e-mail
addresses
;which her ISP allows her to do. Just ask them:



If your newsgroups has been victim of Carol's MCP and ECP that is off
topic you can report her. Her account is dpc6682112001.direcpc.com and
you may report her by calling 1-800-DirecPC, by emailing us at
, or by writing to:

DirecPC
Customer Care Center
11717 Exploration Lane
Germantown, MD 20876 USA

Her use of remailers can still be traced to her account.No American ISP
like to be
associated with Hate Speech no matter if Hate speech is protected
under the First. It affects their commercial interest.
Then you can contact your own ISP and have them add them to their
block List Direcpc.com

Why does Carol behave as she does?


Carolyn Adamo Gulley of Mt Juliet Tn. Is a life long underachiever.
She did not finish High school in NYC, and lived as a biker gangsters
in the 60's and 70's. She claims on her former website that she has 2
failed
marriages and blames God for her poor choices. It is alleged that she
lost custody of her only son due to substance abuse, (never been
proven however). Dumped in TN by her Second husband, Quote-quote, with
no place to go.


She also has failed attempts at being a JW. She could never attain
their moral standards as dictated in the scriptures, and thus been at
war with them ever since. This has made her a very mentally unstable
woman, her hatred is intense, and due to biker-substance abuse
lifestyle, she now needs aid of a pacemaker.

By reporting her to her ISP, she is made aware, that she is alone in
her insane crusade full of false hoods and forgeries., and that you
the reader does not support hate speech against any religion or person.

[Squirrel]

On Sat, 21 Jan 2006 23:24:52 -0600, "Koi-lo" >
wrote:

>
>"Squirrel" > wrote in message
...
>
>>>ultimately leave from.
>>
>> frankly I dont care where they come from, I was merely confirming I
>> came from NZ
>===================
>I know *you* come from NZ. That shows in your header as well. :-)

some are not as worldly wise as you ;)

[Koi-lo]

"Squirrel" > wrote in message
...
> On Sat, 21 Jan 2006 23:24:52 -0600, "Koi-lo" >
> wrote:
>
>>
>>"Squirrel" > wrote in message
...
>>
>>>>ultimately leave from.
>>>
>>> frankly I dont care where they come from, I was merely confirming I
>>> came from NZ
>>===================
>>I know *you* come from NZ. That shows in your header as well. :-)
>
> some are not as worldly wise as you ;)
=================================]
Isn't it your summer there? Or seasons are reversed. It's a bit past
mid-winter here. We're expecting the 20s F tonight so it looks like the
fireplace will be getting a workout. The daffodils are just starting to
peep above the soil.
--
Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
Aquariums since 1952
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastadaisy
~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>

[Squirrel]

On Wed, 25 Jan 2006 12:30:39 -0600, "Koi-lo" >
wrote:

>
>"Squirrel" > wrote in message
...
>> On Sat, 21 Jan 2006 23:24:52 -0600, "Koi-lo" >
>> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>"Squirrel" > wrote in message
...
>>>
>>>>>ultimately leave from.
>>>>
>>>> frankly I dont care where they come from, I was merely confirming I
>>>> came from NZ
>>>===================
>>>I know *you* come from NZ. That shows in your header as well. :-)
>>
>> some are not as worldly wise as you ;)
>=================================]
>Isn't it your summer there? Or seasons are reversed. It's a bit past
>mid-winter here. We're expecting the 20s F tonight so it looks like the
>fireplace will be getting a workout. The daffodils are just starting to
>peep above the soil.

it is in mid to late twenties here, pretrty much the height of summer,
long evenings are great, but I wasnt born for either extreme in temp

[NanK]

When you moved up your goldie to the larger tank, did you move the
filter along with him or did you put him in a new or already established
tank?

Also, many fancy goldfish do better in aquarium temps of 74 to 76
degrees according to some of the best goldfish breeders on various web
sites. My double-tailed butterfly Moor did not do well until we put in
a heater and raised the temp from 68 to 76 degrees.

That being said, your goldie is probably in a tank that is cycling all
over again. Even if it was cycled, the meds knocked down the good
bacteria count and you're starting again. I have had fantastic success
with a product from Seachem called STABILITY. It is safe and easy to use
and will cycle your tank in 7 days.

One other note: If you have a fancy Moor (lots of fins) and a too
powerful filter, he could be getting stressed with a too strong current.
Try slowing the filter down a bit if it's oversized for the tank.

Good luck.

nan